Carlos Lee

[JimR]

i do not fault him so much for the shoestring catch he did not make. the right turn he made on the could-have-been-E4 was fucking horrible, though. the thing is, what can a manager do about that stuff these days? fine him? HAH!

[Rebel Jew]

i do not fault him so much for the shoestring catch he did not make. the right turn he made on the could-have-been-E4 was fucking horrible, though. the thing is, what can a manager do about that stuff these days? fine him? HAH!

i sure hope this team doesn't continue in the direction of becoming an american leagueish one led by "...he's paid to hit" guys (berkman and lee), and "...he's paid to hit" wannabes (scott and burke).

[JimR]

i sure hope this team doesn't continue in the direction of becoming an american leagueish one led by "...he's paid to hit" guys (berkman and lee), and "...he's paid to hit" wannabes (scott and burke).

to me, that's not it. big guys can bust their butts on every play, too, and Carlos does not. neither does Berkman. i would have been screaming at Lee after this game for his baserunning unless he apologized immediately. the right turn was inexcusable.

[Rebel Jew]

to me, that's not it. big guys can bust their butts on every play, too, and Carlos does not. neither does Berkman. i would have been screaming at Lee after this game for his baserunning unless he apologized immediately. the right turn was inexcusable.

were starting to see stuff like this every day, which is what bothers me, and is making it less fun to watch baseball.   baserunning mistakes, judgment lapses, bad or ill-advised throws, etc.  and then when a guy like burke gets demoted its "i wasnt hitting."

[JimR]

were starting to see stuff like this every day, which is what bothers me, and is making it less fun to watch baseball.   baserunning mistakes, judgment lapses, bad or ill-advised throws, etc.  and then when a guy like burke gets demoted its "i wasnt hitting."

agree totally. bunch of lazy ass whiners.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

agree totally. bunch of lazy ass whiners.

I can handle the Astros losing.  What I can't stand watching is them play sloppy baseball.  It's dissappointing and completely devoid of entertainment value.  I'll keep watching, hoping they turn this around, but I'm not sure how many more games I can watch past the 5th inning. 

Sadly, I think alot of people are going to put yesterday's loss on Wheeler.  He didn't have the best command and his sinker wasn't fooling the hitters, if he was even getting it to sink.  But he did his best.  I didn't question his effort.  The play with Lee going into 2nd... that made me sick.  If I see one more Astros hitter pout coming out of the batters box after popping up, I think I may find something better to do with my tmie and only watch from a distance.  They are paid alot of money to play a game.  They should have the professionalism to play hard to earn their money.

[ybbodeus]

While the whole "Loan Ranger comin' to the rescue" late season runs we've been privileged to witness are no doubt fun to watch, particularly when it's the Cubs who are being chased down, seeing Tonto's ass kicked for the four or five months leading UP to the revival are starting to get REALLY old. 

[Phil_in_CS]

Sadly, I think alot of people are going to put yesterday's loss on Wheeler.

Wheeler didn't get it done yesterday. Shit happens, and today's a new day. That kind of situation is easier to deal with (for me) that people not playing full out.

[Duman]

agree totally. bunch of lazy ass whiners.

How much of this responsibility for tone is on the manager and how much is on the players themselves? 

[ybbodeus]

Maybe it's a players' union directive, to act like you don't care.

 

[JimR]

How much of this responsibility for tone is on the manager and how much is on the players themselves? 

all on the players, imo. the manager has to call them on it and rant and rave about hustle, but his hands are tied by big contracts and unions.

[pravata]

I can handle the Astros losing.  What I can't stand watching is them play sloppy baseball.  It's dissappointing and completely devoid of entertainment value.  I'll keep watching, hoping they turn this around, but I'm not sure how many more games I can watch past the 5th inning. 

Sadly, I think alot of people are going to put yesterday's loss on Wheeler.  He didn't have the best command and his sinker wasn't fooling the hitters, if he was even getting it to sink.  But he did his best.  I didn't question his effort.  The play with Lee going into 2nd... that made me sick.  If I see one more Astros hitter pout coming out of the batters box after popping up, I think I may find something better to do with my tmie and only watch from a distance.  They are paid alot of money to play a game.  They should have the professionalism to play hard to earn their money.

Basic fundamental baseball, not covering 2nd on a steal? etc, and there's the legitimate chance for a sweep in Denver.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Basic fundamental baseball, not covering 2nd on a steal? etc, and there's the legitimate chance for a sweep in Denver.

If we are going to re-hash every example of poor fundamentals, this thread is going to blow up in very little time.

[pravata]

If we are going to re-hash every example of poor fundamentals, this thread is going to blow up in very little time.

Precisely.  So lets have no more about how Lidge needs to be traded, why Purpura was stupid for signing Williams, whether Everett can hit, etc.  That'll blow up a thread.  If the team can't handle the fundamentals, like hitting the cutoff man, there's not a lot that management can do. 

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Precisely.  So lets have no more about how Lidge needs to be traded, why Purpura was stupid for signing Williams, whether Everett can hit, etc.  That'll blow up a thread.  If the team can't handle the fundamentals, like hitting the cutoff man, there's not a lot that management can do. 

What if it's a trade proposal to bring in players who can handle fundamentals?  Okay, okay... I keed, I keed... 

Agree 100% on the reactionary nonsense.  It's okay to state the flaws, if you can justify why you think they are flaws.  For the love of mercy, make sure any suggestions you offer apply to those flaws..

The Astros can't score? Bench Ausmus and Everett!
Ensberg hits like a big ninny (something I can personally related to)?  Let him bat leadoff!


All the rantings completely overlook the root of the problems.  Poor fundamentals have led to these recent late inning losses.  Berkman's anemic production is killing the consistancy of this offense.  Deal with those issues and the other ones are not so different than the rest of the NL deals with, with the exception of a few teams, maybe.  And the Astros pitching will more than compensate for those deficiencies, where as teams like steM will have a great regular season, only to get bounced due to their weak pitching.

Sorry, felt the need to vent.

And if they can trade Lidge and solve the problems of this team, I'm all for it.  Just don't ask me to find that trade or convince another team to help the Astros out in this manner.  After all, those other teams are trying to win, just like the Astros.  It's incredibly ignorant to expect other teams to give up their future stars for a closer, at this juncture.   Trade suggestions surrounding Ensberg, Lane, and Burke should be recognized for the foolishness they are.  Oh sure!  Teams love to give up top prospects for players that really haven't established themselves, despite having multiple opportunities to do so.   They just need a "change of scenery"!  C-R-O-C-K-O-S-H-I-T!

[WulawHorn]

I've not enjoyed the Carlos Lee experience except for the time that he is in the batters box.

He's a clown in the field and he has no semblance of hustle at all down the base line or on the bases.

The other day on his double to the wall he pulled up rounding first base.  What happens if the outfielder bobbles, or falls down, or the ball takes a crazy bounce etc.  He cost us the chance at a big inning on his BS right turn on the way to second base.  Could have been the difference in the game (that and his circus clown act in left the last two games).

Anyway, just doesn't seem like an Astros kinda guy from leaving it on the field.  Neither does Berkman for the matter.

It's as frustrating as the losing.

[JimR]

I've not enjoyed the Carlos Lee experience except for the time that he is in the batters box.

He's a clown in the field and he has no semblance of hustle at all down the base line or on the bases.

The other day on his double to the wall he pulled up rounding first base.  What happens if the outfielder bobbles, or falls down, or the ball takes a crazy bounce etc.  He cost us the chance at a big inning on his BS right turn on the way to second base.  Could have been the difference in the game (that and his circus clown act in left the last two games).

Anyway, just doesn't seem like an Astros kinda guy from leaving it on the field.  Neither does Berkman for the matter.

It's as frustrating as the losing.

i do not think he is a "clown" in the field. i have been pleasantly surprised with his defense. my problem with him is solely hustle, or the lack thereof, on every play. watch more closely. there are lots of guys who do not bust it all the time. many more don't than do.

[davek]

i do not think he is a "clown" in the field. i have been pleasantly surprised with his defense. my problem with him is solely hustle, or the lack thereof, on every play. watch more closely. there are lots of guys who do not bust it all the time. many more don't than do.

I don't think he's a "clown" in the field either... But his lack of hustle clearly manifests itself on defense too... He's given up at least one triple this year by not hustling into the corner at Minute Maid... Most plays, offense and defense alike, it seems like he's metering his effort to make sure he doesn't expend too much energy...

[JimR]

I don't think he's a "clown" in the field either... But his lack of hustle clearly manifests itself on defense too... He's given up at least one triple this year by not hustling into the corner at Minute Maid... Most plays, offense and defense alike, it seems like he's metering his effort to make sure he doesn't expend too much energy...

i think most players do that. watch Ausmus on a grounder to short sometime or most any player on a sure double. they coast into second and stop dead on the bag.

[Twoniner]

 1- It is simply amazing that the guy is 4 RBI behind AROD and plays on this team.    
 2- Lance better enjoy the next year or so at 1st, because Carlos won't last more than another year in left.
 3-  Bad contract

[S.P. Rodriguez]

i do not think he is a "clown" in the field. i have been pleasantly surprised with his defense. my problem with him is solely hustle, or the lack thereof, on every play. watch more closely. there are lots of guys who do not bust it all the time. many more don't than do.

Exactly...  This is almost a team-wide issue. 

[homer]

He's given up at least one triple this year by not hustling into the corner at Minute Maid...

I have noticed recently that he is hustling pretty good on the balls down into the corner. Maybe somebody mentioned it, and maybe somebody will mention these baserunning flubs.

The thing when he returns to the base (whether it be a ground out, flyball, etc.) where he turns his whole body around and kind of shuffles to the base with his head down is especially irritating.

[homer]

1- It is simply amazing that the guy is 4 RBI behind AROD and plays on this team.    
 2- Lance better enjoy the next year or so at 1st, because Carlos won't last more than another year in left.
 3-  Bad contract

When did you become such a moaner?

[JimR]

When did you become such a moaner?

yep, the contract may be bad in the abstract, but the market was demanding it. he should moan about Soriano's contract. that started the dominoes falling.

[Jose Cruz III]

I recall a Braves game a few years back when Chipper Jones "jogged" out a ground ball in a big inning and the 1st baseman dropped the throw but recovered and got Chipper for the 3rd out. Chipper makes it easily if he is hustling. Cox pulled him from the game and this was like the 4th inning.

I hate Cox but you gotta admire his guts in this situation.

[pravata]

yep, the contract may be bad in the abstract, but the market was demanding it. he should moan about Soriano's contract. that started the dominoes falling.

Last Sunday Purpura was saying how he's glad Soriano didn't accept his offer and they were able to get Lee.  Also, the Giants offered Lee even more money.  So "bad contract", for us reality hostages, is not accurate.

[Jose Cruz III]

Last Sunday Purpura was saying how he's glad Soriano didn't accept his offer and they were able to get Lee.  Also, the Giants offered Lee even more money.  So "bad contract", for us reality hostages, is not accurate.

Not to mention the fact that if he had not been signed the outfield would have been Scott, Burke, and Lane to start the season.

[homer]

Last Sunday Purpura was saying how he's glad Soriano didn't accept his offer and they were able to get Lee.  Also, the Giants offered Lee even more money.  So "bad contract", for us reality hostages, is not accurate.

What the fuck does it matter to any of us if its a bad contract? Every contract is bad when the player is fucking up, and every contract is a steal when a guy is doing good. This logic causes contracts to change from bad to good from year to year, and sometimes within the same year... see Bagwell, Jeff; Lidge, Brad; Berkman, Lance.

[Jose Cruz III]

What the fuck does it matter to any of us if its a bad contract? Every contract is bad when the player is fucking up, and every contract is a steal when a guy is doing good. This logic causes contracts to change from bad to good from year to year, and sometimes within the same year... see Bagwell, Jeff; Lidge, Brad; Berkman, Lance.

Do you realize how much money I have paid Carlos lee this year? Every peeny I pay him gives me that much more sayso in how bad his contract is.

[WulawHorn]

I'm not saying bad contract or anything, I'm just saying watching biggio and Bagwell and others like them for 15 years has led me to a certain expectation for how the houston astros approach the game, and Lee doesn't fit that mold.

I assume that Catcher and Pitcher get a more or less free pass on busting ass out of the box on routine ground balls b/c of the nature of those positions.


Lee should have been going hard at 2b in an attempt to bust up the double play. He wasn't, so he wasn't going to bust the double play- then he makes that right turn and can't get to the bag.  Frustrating to watch that.

[MRaup]

I'm not saying bad contract or anything, I'm just saying watching biggio and Bagwell and others like them for 15 years has led me to a certain expectation for how the houston astros approach the game, and Lee doesn't fit that mold.

I assume that Catcher and Pitcher get a more or less free pass on busting ass out of the box on routine ground balls b/c of the nature of those positions.


Lee should have been going hard at 2b in an attempt to bust up the double play. He wasn't, so he wasn't going to bust the double play- then he makes that right turn and can't get to the bag.  Frustrating to watch that.

Lee wasn't going to break up the double play anyway. But stopping and making a right turn before the ball is at 2nd is inexcusable.

At least run hard until you're out.

[JimR]

What the fuck does it matter to any of us if its a bad contract? Every contract is bad when the player is fucking up, and every contract is a steal when a guy is doing good. This logic causes contracts to change from bad to good from year to year, and sometimes within the same year... see Bagwell, Jeff; Lidge, Brad; Berkman, Lance.

you have discovered the Baseball Prospectus technique.

[WulawHorn]

Lee wasn't going to break up the double play anyway. But stopping and making a right turn before the ball is at 2nd is inexcusable.

At least run hard until you're out.

see- I don't like that assumption you are starting with Mr. Raup, about not being able to break up the double play. I feel (maybe i'm full of shit- it's happened before) like Bidge or Bags or Everett or Pence would have been busting into second to try to break up the potential, inning ending twin killing.  Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first.

[MRaup]

see- I don't like that assumption you are starting with Mr. Raup, about not being able to break up the double play. I feel (maybe i'm full of shit- it's happened before) like Bidge or Bags or Everett or Pence would have been busting into second to try to break up the potential, inning ending twin killing.  Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first.

Slow the bus down there, killer.

You need to finish reading what I wrote first.

He should've gone in to the bag hard instead of peeling off. Maybe not sliding in high to break up the double play, but you should run in hard every time in case something like, oh I don't know, the 2B dropping the throw, happens.

[JimR]

see- I don't like that assumption you are starting with Mr. Raup, about not being able to break up the double play. I feel (maybe i'm full of shit- it's happened before) like Bidge or Bags or Everett or Pence would have been busting into second to try to break up the potential, inning ending twin killing.  Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first.

i think he's right b/c he was too far away. if he had hustled and slid into second just to attempt to disrupt the play, however he would have been safe. the right turn was a slow pitch softball move.

[Noe]

Precisely.  So lets have no more about how Lidge needs to be traded, why Purpura was stupid for signing Williams, whether Everett can hit, etc.  That'll blow up a thread.  If the team can't handle the fundamentals, like hitting the cutoff man, there's not a lot that management can do. 

Wow!  How excellent is *that*!  You mean we're talking Astros baseball here!  Get out of town!

[Noe]

i think most players do that. watch Ausmus on a grounder to short sometime or most any player on a sure double. they coast into second and stop dead on the bag.

He grounded one back to Cook, who threw it in the ground and Helton had to try to catch the hop-skip throw... twice.  All the while, Ausmus is jogging to first base.

That was pitiful.

[WulawHorn]

He grounded one back to Cook, who threw it in the ground and Helton had to try to catch the hop-skip throw... twice.  All the while, Ausmus is jogging to first base.

That was pitiful.

Agreed NOE- agreed. I just generally cut pitchers and catchers a little slack on that kind of thing though. Catcher's got it rough squating a billion times a season, and pitchers I don't generally want running around like a guy with their hair on fire on the basepaths. They ain't used to it and bad things can happen, see Hernandez, Carlos.

[MRaup]

Agreed NOE- agreed. I just generally cut pitchers and catchers a little slack on that kind of thing though. Catcher's got it rough squating a billion times a season, and pitchers I don't generally want running around like a guy with their hair on fire on the basepaths. They ain't used to it and bad things can happen, see Hernandez, Carlos.

Asking a guy to at least run down the first base line 4 times a game is not quite the same as running with your hair on fire, come on now.

[Noe]

Agreed NOE- agreed. I just generally cut pitchers and catchers a little slack on that kind of thing though. Catcher's got it rough squating a billion times a season, and pitchers I don't generally want running around like a guy with their hair on fire on the basepaths. They ain't used to it and bad things can happen, see Hernandez, Carlos.

I bet Ausmus would even disagree with you.  He did not hustle and that is one that will cost him in Kangaroo court.  A court that he precides over too.  Irony is so ironic.

[WulawHorn]

Asking a guy to at least run down the first base line 4 times a game is not quite the same as running with your hair on fire, come on now.

No- I don't think it's asking too much- I'm just sayinig that it makes me less pissed when it is a 38 year old catcher not hustling, or a pitcher not busting it out of the box. Not saying I like it- just that it is less "wrong" then a guy like Carlos Lee doing it.  Degrees of sucktitude. What a season so far.

[Noe]

No- I don't think it's asking too much- I'm just sayinig that it makes me less pissed when it is a 38 year old catcher not hustling, or a pitcher not busting it out of the box. Not saying I like it- just that it is less "wrong" then a guy like Carlos Lee doing it.  Degrees of sucktitude. What a season so far.

I think you need to seperate for a second what makes *you* pissed and what makes a teammate a little put off.  Ausmus is a leader on this club.   So is Biggio.  Oswalt, Berkman and Lee will have their times as well.  I know what would make me unhappy and that is all good and well, but what really makes me concerned is when the actual team has issues.  All clubhouses can have problems, not one of them is immune.  Some are personality related, some are not.

But where you tend to draw the line is flat out not playing hard nor hustling.  By "you" I mean the guys on the team and not you and I.  It matters to them that they can count on guys busting their tail, even on a night when you know a guy is hurting a little or maybe having some off-field issues at home but yet still shows up and gives it his all.  You tend to play just a tad harder when you see that in other folks, but moreso when you see your leader doing it.

Ausmus needs to run hard(er) and he knows it.  No excuses, play hard or... don't play at all.

[Jacksonian]

Asking a guy to at least run down the first base line 4 times a game is not quite the same as running with your hair on fire, come on now.

Ack! PENCE!!! separated at birth.

[WulawHorn]

I think you need to seperate for a second what makes *you* pissed and what makes a teammate a little put off.  Ausmus is a leader on this club.   So is Biggio.  Oswalt, Berkman and Lee will have their times as well.  I know what would make me unhappy and that is all good and well, but what really makes me concerned is when the actual team has issues.  All clubhouses can have problems, not one of them is immune.  Some are personality related, some are not.

But where you tend to draw the line is flat out not playing hard nor hustling.  By "you" I mean the guys on the team and not you and I.  It matters to them that they can count on guys busting their tail, even on a night when you know a guy is hurting a little or maybe having some off-field issues at home but yet still shows up and gives it his all.  You tend to play just a tad harder when you see that in other folks, but moreso when you see your leader doing it.

Ausmus needs to run hard(er) and he knows it.  No excuses, play hard or... don't play at all.

Noe- I have absolutely zero idea what does or does not make a guy on the astros pissed off about another person's effort and or hustle. I could speculate, but I'd probably be wrong.

I'm just going with what made me mad- and I said that I'm possibly wrong and/or full of shit.

That said- I appreciate your points and thoughts on the matter. It is from a perspective I had not thought about.

[Noe]

Noe- I have absolutely zero idea what does or does not make a guy on the astros pissed off about another person's effort and or hustle. I could speculate, but I'd probably be wrong.

I'm just going with what made me mad- and I said that I'm possibly wrong and/or full of shit.

That said- I appreciate your points and thoughts on the matter. It is from a perspective I had not thought about.

"Play hard, or don't play at all" - Jeff Bagwell (enough of a clue?)

[EasTexAstro]

The answer to the Astros RF/SS/3B/C....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgu6EdABN2Q&mode=related&search=

[JimR]

Agreed NOE- agreed. I just generally cut pitchers and catchers a little slack on that kind of thing though. Catcher's got it rough squating a billion times a season, and pitchers I don't generally want running around like a guy with their hair on fire on the basepaths. They ain't used to it and bad things can happen, see Hernandez, Carlos.

then Ausmus should retire if catching takes so much out of him that he cannot run out ground balls.

Hernandez did not get hurt running.

[tophfar]

"Play hard, or don't play at all" - Jeff Bagwell (enough of a clue?)

the waning, to outright disappearance, of the Bagwell influence and attitude on the team is increasingly clear every game.  hopefully even those who denied that it existed can see it now.

[BUWebguy]

Jacksonian - what IS that?

EasTex - I thought that was going to be a Bugs Bunny link.

[HudsonHawk]

He's a clown in the field and he has no semblance of hustle at all down the base line or on the bases.

Lee is far from a clown in the field.  In fact, he's a pretty darn good leftfielder. 

[EasTexAstro]

OK, try this one: PENCE!! on drugs....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp82OcwF7Ao

[Phil_in_CS]

Ack! PENCE!!! separated at birth.

I don't know wtf that is, but it would make a good avatar

[EasTexAstro]

I don't know wtf that is, but it would make a good avatar

or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCupx469UBY

[Jacksonian]

I don't know wtf that is, but it would make a good avatar

U of Texas at Dallas Comets "mascot".  It's trademarked I think.

[homer]

(Thursday) But the Nationals manager was not willing to overlook what he perceived as a lack of hustle in Thursday's 3-2 loss to the Pirates.

In the fifth inning, leadoff hitter Felipe Lopez hit a ground ball to second base and stopped running before the Pirates recorded the out. When Lopez returned to the dugout, Acta informed him he was being replaced by Ronnie Belliard.

"We've said from the beginning, 'We're going to play hard, we're going to play right and we're probably going to have to outhustle the opposition," Acta said. "That's not going to be tolerated, regardless of who you are."

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070607&content_id=2011724&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=was

[TenThirty]

While the whole "Loan Ranger comin' to the rescue" late season runs we've been privileged to witness are no doubt fun to watch, particularly when it's the Cubs who are being chased down, seeing Tonto's ass kicked for the four or five months leading UP to the revival are starting to get REALLY old. 

these Astros are clearly subprime and that market has crashed since last fall.