Jennings wants 12 million per?

[kevwun]

Meanwhile, the Rocks are strafed daily for trading Jason Jennings rather than paying him. Now comes word Houston probably won't sign him, either, believing his $12 million-a-year price tag too high.

I don't know if this is true.  It's the first I've heard of it.  The trade looks not so good if it is.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/sports_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_83_5571295,00.html

[Jacksonian]

I don't know if this is true.  It's the first I've heard of it.  The trade looks not so good if it is.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/sports_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_83_5571295,00.html

Trade looks good to me.

[kevwun]

I think one year of Jason Jennings would be a little steep for Hirsch and Taveras.

[Alkie]

One year rental of an injured pitcher with a career ERA in the mid 4s and a minor leaguer that JimR himself said "wasn't properly scouted" for what was our #1 and #4 prospect and an everyday CF qualifies as a terrible trade.  Stop drinking the FlavorAid. 

It isn't what Buchholz and Hirsh end up doing, nor is it about what Jennings ends up doing.  At the time, any fucking publication (including the Minor League Prospect chart here on this very website) had both Buchholz and Hirsh in the top 5 of Astros prospects.  You don't fucking trade 2 of your 5 best prospects and your ONLY fucking CF for 1 unusable pitcher (Ascencio) and Jason Jennings. 

Bad trade.  Always will be.  The fact that Jennings probably won't be an Astro after this year makes it downright laughably stupid.

[matadorph]

This smells like "word" coming from his ass.

[pravata]

One year rental of an injured pitcher with a career ERA in the mid 4s and a minor leaguer that JimR himself said "wasn't properly scouted" for what was our #1 and #4 prospect and an everyday CF qualifies as a terrible trade.  Stop drinking the FlavorAid. 

It isn't what Buchholz and Hirsh end up doing, nor is it about what Jennings ends up doing.  At the time, any fucking publication (including the Minor League Prospect chart here on this very website) had both Buchholz and Hirsh in the top 5 of Astros prospects.  You don't fucking trade 2 of your 5 best prospects and your ONLY fucking CF for 1 unusable pitcher (Ascencio) and Jason Jennings. 

Bad trade.  Always will be.  The fact that Jennings probably won't be an Astro after this year makes it downright laughably stupid.

The trade was about 200 innings.  Pettitte had gone, the Garland trade didn't happen.  Hirsh showed the Astros he couldn't show up on time for the days he was going to pitch.  They had Oswalt and Woody Williams in the rotation.  Of course now it looks like Wandy Rodriguez and Chris Sampson are going to contribute significant innings, but that's now.  I'm not sure where the not properly scouted part comes from, the trade may have been done quickly, but if you're refering to not pitching between starts, that was explained by the Rockies trainers, it wasn't because Jennings was injured.   

[Andyzipp]

The trade made a LOT more sense for Garland than it did with Jennings.

Purpura offered too much for Garland, Colorado took notice at his willingness to bend over, and a little bit later, someone's getting treated for the clap.

[pravata]

The trade made a LOT more sense for Garland than it did with Jennings.

Purpura offered too much for Garland, Colorado took notice at his willingness to bend over, and a little bit later, someone's getting treated for the clap.

For what it's worth, the Rockies weren't initially impressed with their acquisitions.  Buchholz was slotted for middle relief, they signed Finley as insurance in center, but I think they had pencilled Hirsh into the rotation. 

[Lefty]

For what it's worth, the Rockies weren't initially impressed with their acquisitions.  Buchholz was slotted for middle relief, they signed Finley as insurance in center, but I think they had pencilled Hirsh into the rotation. 

Reaction in Colorado to the trade was not positive.

[Alkie]

The trade was about 200 innings.  Pettitte had gone, the Garland trade didn't happen.  Hirsh showed the Astros he couldn't show up on time for the days he was going to pitch.  They had Oswalt and Woody Williams in the rotation.  Of course now it looks like Wandy Rodriguez and Chris Sampson are going to contribute significant innings, but that's now.  I'm not sure where the not properly scouted part comes from, the trade may have been done quickly, but if you're refering to not pitching between starts, that was explained by the Rockies trainers, it wasn't because Jennings was injured.   

Properly scouted was in reference to Ascensio.

[matadorph]

One year rental of an injured pitcher....


Bad trade.  Always will be.  The fact that Jennings probably won't be an Astro after this year makes it downright laughably stupid.

As pravata already noted, Jennings was never injured with the Rockies. Don't buy the Ortiz bullshit.

Tabling negotiations until the offseason does not make Jennings' departure a given.

[Alkie]

For what it's worth, the Rockies weren't initially impressed with their acquisitions.  Buchholz was slotted for middle relief, they signed Finley as insurance in center, but I think they had pencilled Hirsh into the rotation. 

Well, but again, you speaking about the post-trade use of the players involved. 

I'm saying, moments before the trade, Tim Purpura offered what was AT THAT TIME was our #1 and #4 prospects and AT THE TIME, our single only CF (Jason Lane in CF was laughably stupid, even in theory) for AT THE TIME a one year rental on a guy who had a career ERA (home AND away) in the mid 4s and a minor leaguer who was clearly CLEARLY just duct taped. 

Let's say it WAS just about innings.  You don't think we could have gotten......say.....Livan Hernandez for a hell of a lot less than a 3-for-1 (essentially) for two GRADE A PROSPECTS (albeit one who apparently didn't show up on time and one who liked to give up HRs) and an every day CF/lead off man?

Bad trade. 

[matadorph]

Reaction in Colorado to the trade was not positive.

And from what I've read, it's still mixed.

[Jacksonian]

Well, but again, you speaking about the post-trade use of the players involved. 

I'm saying, moments before the trade, Tim Purpura offered what was AT THAT TIME was our #1 and #4 prospects and AT THE TIME, our single only CF (Jason Lane in CF was laughably stupid, even in theory) for AT THE TIME a one year rental on a guy who had a career ERA (home AND away) in the mid 4s and a minor leaguer who was clearly CLEARLY just duct taped. 

Let's say it WAS just about innings.  You don't think we could have gotten......say.....Livan Hernandez for a hell of a lot less than a 3-for-1 (essentially) for two GRADE A PROSPECTS (albeit one who apparently didn't show up on time and one who liked to give up HRs) and an every day CF/lead off man?

Bad trade. 

I believe we were the only one's who had Buchholz in the top 10.  BA didn't have him there.  Also, the quality of our #1 wasn't up to the quality of nearly every other orgs #1.

[matadorph]

Well, but again, you speaking about the post-trade use of the players involved. 

I'm saying, moments before the trade, Tim Purpura offered what was AT THAT TIME was our #1 and #4 prospects and AT THE TIME, our single only CF (Jason Lane in CF was laughably stupid, even in theory) for AT THE TIME a one year rental on a guy who had a career ERA (home AND away) in the mid 4s and a minor leaguer who was clearly CLEARLY just duct taped. 

Let's say it WAS just about innings.  You don't think we could have gotten......say.....Livan Hernandez for a hell of a lot less than a 3-for-1 (essentially) for two GRADE A PROSPECTS (albeit one who apparently didn't show up on time and one who liked to give up HRs) and an every day CF/lead off man?

Bad trade. 

Have a look at Chris Carpenter's career stats before he signed with the Cards. Some players need time before everything clicks.

Given what we've seen of Jennings last year and his performance in limited action this season, I think he's a potential gem-in-the-making.

[Alkie]

Have a look at Chris Carpenter's career stats before he signed with the Cards. Some players need time before everything clicks.

Oh my god.  We're comparing Jennings to CARPENTER now??

Maybe I need to take some time off.

[pravata]

Properly scouted was in reference to Ascensio.

Oh, yeah. 

[pravata]

Well, but again, you speaking about the post-trade use of the players involved. 

I'm saying, moments before the trade, Tim Purpura offered what was AT THAT TIME was our #1 and #4 prospects and AT THE TIME, our single only CF (Jason Lane in CF was laughably stupid, even in theory) for AT THE TIME a one year rental on a guy who had a career ERA (home AND away) in the mid 4s and a minor leaguer who was clearly CLEARLY just duct taped. 

Let's say it WAS just about innings.  You don't think we could have gotten......say.....Livan Hernandez for a hell of a lot less than a 3-for-1 (essentially) for two GRADE A PROSPECTS (albeit one who apparently didn't show up on time and one who liked to give up HRs) and an every day CF/lead off man?

Bad trade. 

What do I know about trading for Livan Hernandez.  I'm just saying, it was about the innings.  Also, lets not pretend that everyone was high on Taveras, as a leadoff hitter, or a centerfielder.  He sat for a month last season because he need a GPS to find a fly ball.  And, the major problem the Astros were trying to fix was offense.  It was obvious by going with Burke they were going to give up defense, but again, a whole month last season he played center.  I'm not trying to argue that Purpura is a great GM, I think he's reactionary and uncertain.  But, I don't think the trade was stupid and, considering the premise of the thing, I dont even think it was a bad trade. 

[Alkie]

Ok, I can buy that.

[Noe]

Well, but again, you speaking about the post-trade use of the players involved. 

I'm saying, moments before the trade, Tim Purpura offered what was AT THAT TIME was our #1 and #4 prospects and AT THE TIME, our single only CF (Jason Lane in CF was laughably stupid, even in theory) for AT THE TIME a one year rental on a guy who had a career ERA (home AND away) in the mid 4s and a minor leaguer who was clearly CLEARLY just duct taped. 

Let's say it WAS just about innings.  You don't think we could have gotten......say.....Livan Hernandez for a hell of a lot less than a 3-for-1 (essentially) for two GRADE A PROSPECTS (albeit one who apparently didn't show up on time and one who liked to give up HRs) and an every day CF/lead off man?

Bad trade. 

Weren't you the one who overheard the Rockie's personnel talking to an agent at dinner one night that they didn't think much of Houston's #1?  And I don't believe they felt Jennings was a one-year rental.  I believe the thinking was that if they got the same production in terms of innings out of Jennings that they did out of Pettitte for a cheaper price, then they were ahead on the deal and could possibly buy him for a longer term than they could with Andy.  Houston was in a position of weakness (glaring) at the #2, some say they still are.  But suffice it to say, fans will bitch (not you mind you... I'm saying in general) either way.  Purpura said right after the deal was done "People have been clamoring for me to do something and now that I did, they're upset at me for doing what they asked me to do"... or something to that effect.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  So what you do is make the deal you think will help your club and fuck what anyone, including me, thinks!

[matadorph]

Oh my god.  We're comparing Jennings to CARPENTER now??

Maybe I need to take some time off.

No, of course not. But you're making an argument against Jennings using his career numbers while (IMO) undervaluing his breakout season. It's entirely possible that Jennings is on the verge of becoming a standout pitcher.

[MusicMan]

From the Astros' perspective, this was Hirsh for Jennings.  Debate that if you will, but the principle applies that they KNEW they were sacrificing the future for the present.  Prav is exactly correct that they needed an innings-eater.  (Hell, most around here, including myself, were convinced that Wandy had no business in the majors.)

One other thing... the next person I see who posts both that they screwed up by trading Willy, and that they waited too long on PENCE!!!, I'm going to kick him in the nuts.  Hard.

[pravata]

I don't know if this is true.  It's the first I've heard of it.  The trade looks not so good if it is.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/sports_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_83_5571295,00.html

"Now comes word..."?  From who? From who comes word? What word? Shit, yes, newspapers WILL be dead in 5 years, but It'll be because of sloppy dippyass shit like this. 

[BudGirl]

From the Astros' perspective, this was Hirsh for Jennings. 

Respectfully disagree.  I think it was more Hirsh and Taveras for Jennings.

[pravata]

... the principle applies that they KNEW they were sacrificing the future for the present.  ...

Yeah, that was the other part.  Astros are a win now team.  They have been for about 10 years now.  I dont know if I'm completely comfortable with that either.

[MusicMan]

Respectfully disagree.  I think it was more Hirsh and Taveras for Jennings.

I think Purp was pretty clear that they saw Willy as expendable, given that they expected Pence to be the CF no later than 2008.

[Alkie]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  So what you do is make the deal you think will help your club and fuck what anyone, including me, thinks!

No, absolutely.  But I don't think I've been a reactionary jerk about Purpura-no-matter-what.  I LOVED the Preston Wilson signing.  It didn't work out; that's not his fault.  At the time, it was a good idea and a nice signing.  I LOVED the Loretta signing.  It did work out, so great.

I don't think Jennings filled enough of a need that we traded what we traded.   Again, I'm talking about their TRADE VALUE, not their actual performances since the trade. 

I guess it's funny that Colorado thought they gave up too much too.

It doesn't matter.  I know that.  What I think or what anyone here thinks is 100% irrelevant and has no bearing on the team whatsoever.  I'll stop posting on this thread. 

[pravata]

"Now comes word..."?  From who? From who comes word? What word? Shit, yes, newspapers WILL be dead in 5 years, but It'll be because of sloppy dippyass shit like this. 

Rockies | Team still apart on Jennings contract extension
Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:40:20 -0800

Tracy Ringolsby, of the Rocky Mountain News, reports the Colorado Rockies offered SP Jason Jennings a two-year, $16 million contract extension but he is looking for closer to a $20 milllion deal.

So he told the Rockies he was looking for 10, 12 is supposed to be a surprise to the Astros?

[WulawHorn]

Anyone listen to the Gerbil this AM with the Count on?

He said that they had absolutely zero intention to talk to Jennings about a contract extension. Said they view him as an injury risk and they wouldn't throw good money after bad.

After listening to the Count I think there is about a 5% chance that Jennings resigns. With the season in the toilet this is a brutal beat down of a trade. Anyway- thought you might want to know what the GM is thinking on that.

[kevwun]

Like I said, I don't know if the article has any truth in it.  It's the first time I've seen anything on the Astros signing Jennings and I thought I'd pass it along.  When the trade was made, I didn't have a problem with it as long as we would be able to re-sign Jennings.  I don't like the deal if that doesn't happen.

[kevwun]

I heard about the blurb in the Rocky Mountain News from 610, but I just heard the tease.  I got to work before they actually talked about it so I looked it up when I got to my desk.

[homer]

He said that they had absolutely zero intention to talk to Jennings about a contract extension. Said they view him as an injury risk and they wouldn't throw good money after bad.

Purpura said this? Exactly?

[Lefty]

Purpura said this? Exactly?

Jeebus H Tapdancing Christ I hope not.

[Noe]

No, absolutely.  But I don't think I've been a reactionary jerk about Purpura-no-matter-what.  I LOVED the Preston Wilson signing.  It didn't work out; that's not his fault.  At the time, it was a good idea and a nice signing.  I LOVED the Loretta signing.  It did work out, so great.

I don't think Jennings filled enough of a need that we traded what we traded.   Again, I'm talking about their TRADE VALUE, not their actual performances since the trade. 

I guess it's funny that Colorado thought they gave up too much too.

It doesn't matter.  I know that.  What I think or what anyone here thinks is 100% irrelevant and has no bearing on the team whatsoever.  I'll stop posting on this thread. 

Stop posting is not the answer.  But I think it's alright to offer some opinions to th e contrary if necessary or even if it's not contrary at least an opinion that is basically "this is how I see it".  Overall though, you're right... the Astros could give a shit about what I think... unless it is Drayton McLane who is recieving a ton of e-mails and letters from disgruntled fans saying "Gunther Pance should bees in de majors - signed Disgrunttled Fan" or "I travelled all the way to Houston from Baytown to watch the Astros and I was shocked that Craig Biggio was not in the lineup... I'm a customer and I demand for them to put Biggio in the lineup if I am going to make the effort to come out to watch this team play or else I'm not coming to the ballpark anymore.  - signed Baytown Stros"

[Noe]

Purpura said this? Exactly?

If you dare: You can listen to the show "on demand" to review what was said by Purpura:

Davies and Dukes Show... be prepared to lose a few brain cells over this one

[homer]

If you dare: You can listen to the show "on demand" to review what was said by Purpura:

Davies and Dukes Show... be prepared to lose a few brain cells over this one

Listening now.

[MusicMan]

Listening now.

EMT's are standing by.  Thanks for taking one for the team.

[pravata]

Purpura said this? Exactly?

That would be an extraordinarily bad thing for a GM to say.  Well lets wait and see what Purpura gets for Jennings at the deadline.

[das]

EMT's are standing by.  Thanks for taking one for the team.

I'm on the edge of my seat.  That's an amazing comment if true.

[pravata]

Anyone listen to the Gerbil this AM with the Count on?

He said that they had absolutely zero intention to talk to Jennings about a contract extension. Said they view him as an injury risk and they wouldn't throw good money after bad.

After listening to the Count I think there is about a 5% chance that Jennings resigns. With the season in the toilet this is a brutal beat down of a trade. Anyway- thought you might want to know what the GM is thinking on that.

Brutal? Feh.  This is a day at the beach compared to 2000.

[Noe]

EMT's are standing by.  Thanks for taking one for the team.

FWIW - the idea of having an "on demand" podcast of the show is a great idea.  The problem is that the show is horrible and Dukes and Davies are both very ignorant about baseball.  If they can find some way to equate it to basketball, they're happy.  Even football, so they're entirely out of their element to discuss baseball by and large.

But that is the not the fault of the technology, that is the fault of the personalities they're wasting this fine technology on.

[homer]

EMT's are standing by.  Thanks for taking one for the team.

Purpura knows for a fact that Lee and the shitbag pitcher had a beef that went back to the WBC. Garner will take care of it on the field - insinuating that someone is gonna get dotted... but not in a close game situation.

On Jennings - No discussions about contract since spring training. Most important thing is to get him healthy. He is injured and we have to go through the season to see where he is and then talk dollars. Jennings should understand that. You sign a player to help the team, not to justify a trade. We had to give up good players, probably too much, but Astros needed a number two. Have to evaluate his injury, no commitment until we know he can pitch next year. No committment until after the season.

[pravata]

Purpura knows for a fact that Lee and the shitbag pitcher had a beef that went back to the WBC. Garner will take care of it on the field.

On Jennings - No discussions about contract since spring training. Most important thing is to get him healthy. He is injured and we have to go through the season to see where he is and then talk dollars. Jennings should understand that. You sign a player to help the team, not to justify a trade. We had to give up good players, probably too much, but Astros needed a number two. Have to evaluate his injury, no commitment until we know he can pitch next year. No committment until after the season.

That woud be true for any team.  So, no change. 

[MusicMan]

Purpura knows for a fact that Lee and the shitbag pitcher had a beef that went back to the WBC. Garner will take care of it on the field - insinuating that someone his gonna get dotted... but not in a close game situation.

This is not a wise thing to say publicly.

That said... getting Woody kicked out of a Coors start might not be a horrible idea.

[WulawHorn]

First off, I was driving into work this morning (and I'm not a morning person), not taking notes at my desk.

Secondly, I was listening to the damn Gerbil with Davies and Dukes- who are horrible.

I only flipped it over b/c 610 had Justice on and the wall street journal this morning on my XM was at commercial- I heard the count so I thought I'd listen in.

The Jennings stuff is what my recollection was. I could not believe what I was hearing. He definately said that they haven't talked numbers, and won't until they guage his injury situation. I'm 90% sure that he mentioned injury history as a reason not to sign him.

He definately said that he didn't want to give him a contract now, and then find out he can't pitch next year.

Also, it seemed, if you read between the lines a bit, (but not a whole hell of a lot) unlikely that the Astros are going to sign this guy.

I was in law school in STL during 2000, so  I experienced the beat down from afar- it was easier to deal with I guess. Still followed the team as much as possible, but that was back before sat radio, internet radio etc and I couldn't get a dish on my apartment (hell, I don't even know if extra innings existed in it's present form yet).

Go listen to the interview yourself if you are of a mind.

Also said that Lee was intenionally plunked b/c of personal history going back to the WBC with the pitchcer (they are countrymen and were on the Panama team together- I guess they don't like each other).

[homer]

This is not a wise thing to say publicly.

That said... getting Woody kicked out of a Coors start might not be a horrible idea.

He just insinuated it, nothing specific. The two hosts were spoojing on themselves over the idea. Purpura reminded them that nothing may happen tonight... might be the next series.

As the GM, or manager, or whoever, I think you have to let it be known that if a shitbag pitcher throws at your best player over a personal beef that it will dealt with it on the field. Whether it ever happens or not.

[pravata]

First off, I was driving into work this morning (and I'm not a morning person), not taking notes at my desk.

Secondly, I was listening to the damn Gerbil with Davies and Dukes- who are horrible.

I only flipped it over b/c 610 had Justice on and the wall street journal this morning on my XM was at commercial- I heard the count so I thought I'd listen in.

The Jennings stuff is what my recollection was. I could not believe what I was hearing. He definately said that they haven't talked numbers, and won't until they guage his injury situation. I'm 90% sure that he mentioned injury history as a reason not to sign him.

He definately said that he didn't want to give him a contract now, and then find out he can't pitch next year.

Also, it seemed, if you read between the lines a bit, (but not a whole hell of a lot) unlikely that the Astros are going to sign this guy.

I was in law school in STL during 2000, so  I experienced the beat down from afar- it was easier to deal with I guess. Still followed the team as much as possible, but that was back before sat radio, internet radio etc and I couldn't get a dish on my apartment (hell, I don't even know if extra innings existed in it's present form yet).

Go listen to the interview yourself if you are of a mind.

Also said that Lee was intenionally plunked b/c of personal history going back to the WBC with the pitchcer (they are countrymen and were on the Panama team together- I guess they don't like each other).

Very much appreciate anyone who can listen to the locals without bursting a blood vessel.  I can't do it anymore, but this was important to know about.  The two sides haven't been talking contract for several weeks now.  And it seems only reasonable that anyone would be concerned about Jennings elbow.  Although, he's never had any trouble before.  And 12, in this market?  I don't think that's "unreasonable".

[WulawHorn]

This is not a wise thing to say publicly.

That said... getting Woody kicked out of a Coors start might not be a horrible idea.

I thought Purpura was way too candid, all the way around in the interview.

he should have never been putting out Jennings is an injury risk, they aren't going to talk money with him etc.  He should have never been implying that someone from Colorado is going to get dusted (but maybe not this series- maybe next series). He was congratulating Lance for running onto the field after getting kicked out of the game.  Just stick with this- he shouldn't come on that 3rd rate davies and dickhead show, for any reason. Listening to them makes my ears bleed.


It was very un GM like- he sounded like a fan or a guy at the bar- I was very surprised by this interview, pretty much every part of it. Maybe he's starting to crack up, doesn't care, or doesn't know enough to speak politically correct- I don't know. Wasn't at all what I expected.

[homer]

Very much appreciate anyone who can listen to the locals without bursting a blood vessel.  I can't do it anymore, but this was important to know about.  The two sides haven't been talking contract for several weeks now.  And it seems only reasonable that anyone would be concerned about Jennings elbow.  Although, he's never had any trouble before.  And 12, in this market?  I don't think that's "unreasonable".

Gil Meche - 5/55
Lilly - 4/40
Marquis - 3/21

[MusicMan]

It was very un GM like- he sounded like a fan or a guy at the bar- I was very surprised by this interview, pretty much every part of it. Maybe he's starting to crack up, doesn't care, or doesn't know enough to speak politically correct- I don't know. Wasn't at all what I expected.

Dammit, now I'l have to listen over lunch.

[MusicMan]

Gil Meche - 5/55
Lilly - 4/40
Marquis - 3/21

And so far, they've been living up to these deals.

[BudGirl]

Very much appreciate anyone who can listen to the locals without bursting a blood vessel.  I can't do it anymore, but this was important to know about.  The two sides haven't been talking contract for several weeks now.  And it seems only reasonable that anyone would be concerned about Jennings elbow.  Although, he's never had any trouble before.  And 12, in this market?  I don't think that's "unreasonable".

Especially if he finishes the year strong.  Then again, I've always liked Jennings.

[pravata]

Especially if he finishes the year strong.  Then again, I've always liked Jennings.

I didn't pay attention to him until this season, but I'm discovering he's a notorious slow starter.

[WulawHorn]

Very much appreciate anyone who can listen to the locals without bursting a blood vessel.  I can't do it anymore, but this was important to know about.  The two sides haven't been talking contract for several weeks now.  And it seems only reasonable that anyone would be concerned about Jennings elbow.  Although, he's never had any trouble before.  And 12, in this market?  I don't think that's "unreasonable".

I think what I'm having a hard time explaining is thinking this was incendiary to say about a guy on your team is this:

He could have said nothing, he could have said that they don't like to negotiate mid season if they think it's going to affect the player, he could have said that the organization and player are getting to know each other or any one of a number of other innocuous things.

Instead- I felt like he was pouring gas on the flames- saying Jennings might be damaged goods etc.  I was thinking to myself, while driving, holy shit, if I was Jennings agent I'd be pissed right about now. Purp wasn't seeming to lay the groundwork for a nice relationship to negotiate around.

It's more the kind of stuff I would expect to hear after you trade a guy or fail to sign him.  It's what made me believe there is very little chance Jennings will be an astro next year.

[BudGirl]

I thought Purpura was way too candid, all the way around in the interview.

he should have never been putting out Jennings is an injury risk, they aren't going to talk money with him etc.  He should have never been implying that someone from Colorado is going to get dusted (but maybe not this series- maybe next series). He was congratulating Lance for running onto the field after getting kicked out of the game.  Just stick with this- he shouldn't come on that 3rd rate davies and dickhead show, for any reason. Listening to them makes my ears bleed.


It was very un GM like- he sounded like a fan or a guy at the bar- I was very surprised by this interview, pretty much every part of it. Maybe he's starting to crack up, doesn't care, or doesn't know enough to speak politically correct- I don't know. Wasn't at all what I expected.

Purpura is an idiot if he said that Jennings is an injury risk, whether he is or not.  Seems like all it would accomplish would be to Piss Jennings off if he wants to resign with the Astros and lowers trade value.

[matadorph]

I just listened to it and I disagree completely with WuLawHorn's perception of the interview. There's nothing here we didn't already know.

[WulawHorn]

Purpura is an idiot if he said that Jennings is an injury risk, whether he is or not.  Seems like all it would accomplish would be to Piss Jennings off if he wants to resign with the Astros and lowers trade value.

There you go- I was struggling around and writing paragraphs when you more or less captured it in 2 sentences.

Every pitcher is an injury risk, but you don't go around saying it, at least, not about a guy you got under contract.

[Lefty]

Purpura is an idiot if he said that Jennings is an injury risk, whether he is or not.  Seems like all it would accomplish would be to Piss Jennings off if he wants to resign with the Astros and lowers trade value.

Agreed on pissing the Jennings Camp off; but by now everyone in baseball knows all about Jennings' elbow, think that part was more a statement of the obvious made for the oblivious.

[WulawHorn]

I just listened to it and I disagree completely with WuLawHorn's perception of the interview. There's nothing here we didn't already know.

I invited comment and already gave my disclaimers. Feel free to disagree. What was your sense of the interview then?

Hell, maybe I will go re listen to the damn thing myself.  Maybe I'm looking to nitpick b/c I'm pissy about the poor play right now- I don't know.

At any rate- it's archived so that's what I was trying to point out.

[davek]

This is not a wise thing to say publicly.

That said... getting Woody kicked out of a Coors start might not be a horrible idea.

You don't like Woody's chances with a lifetime 14.90 ERA at Coors?...

[matadorph]

Purpura: "Our biggest objective is to get him healthy and pitching full-time again for us. There has been absolutely no discussion with Jason or his agents since that one brief meeting."

...."You don't give up that amount of talent with the idea that you're gonna let the player go at the end of the year. But with that said, we now have a situation with a player with some significant injury history and we have to go through this season and see where he does stand from a physical point of view before we make any commitment on dollars, and Jason certainly understands that.

[homer]

Dammit, now I'l have to listen over lunch.

Starts 21 minutes in. Good luck.

[JaneDoe]

Starts 21 minutes in. Good luck.

Just fast forward till you hear Purp's voice.  Save your eardrums.

[pravata]

Agreed on pissing the Jennings Camp off; but by now everyone in baseball knows all about Jennings' elbow, think that part was more a statement of the obvious made for the oblivious.

I agree with this opinion, aren't negotiating, we knew that, was on the DL with an arm related injury, knew that too.  Big Baylor is going to be doing the negotiating with Jennings in any case.   

[matadorph]

I invited comment and already gave my disclaimers. Feel free to disagree. What was your sense of the interview then?

Hell, maybe I will go re listen to the damn thing myself.  Maybe I'm looking to nitpick b/c I'm pissy about the poor play right now- I don't know.

At any rate- it's archived so that's what I was trying to point out.

Thanks for pointing out the interview. I agree that Purp probably should've been more restrained in his comments, but I don't think he said anything we didn't already know. The Astros weren't going to ink a contract for him while he's suffering from tendinitis in his right elbow. And even if Purpura doesn't think the elbow is a major concern long-term, he'd be foolish not to use it as leverage in contract negotiations.

[pravata]

I invited comment and already gave my disclaimers. Feel free to disagree. What was your sense of the interview then?

Hell, maybe I will go re listen to the damn thing myself.  Maybe I'm looking to nitpick b/c I'm pissy about the poor play right now- I don't know.

At any rate- it's archived so that's what I was trying to point out.

Hang on, you could have come in here and posted that the sky is blue and 10 people would tell you not only that it's polka dotted, has always been polka dotted, but will be moire patterned tomorrow.  You're just lucky no one called you a bushneck gorveler.  We can't pretend to follow the Astros without paying attention to what the GM says.  I disagree with your ultimate interpretation, that the Astros will not try to sign Jennings, but I appreciate the information.  Especially since I didn't have to listen to the drek myself.

[Noe]

Dammit, now I'l have to listen over lunch.

Okay, as a service to the community at large, here is the Purpura interview *only*:

Less Davies and Dukes Yuk Yuks is a good thing!

In fairness and due to copyright rules on the internet, I must tell you that this is a temporary thing and meant as a snippet (FUD rules) from the much larger show available online for your *ahem* listening pleasure.  Go here to listen to any and all Davies and Dukes shows in the future:

Davies and Dukes Podcasting, Dogs Sleeping with Cats, etc. etc.

[Rammer33]

it sounds to me like he might be stirring the pot a little on a player that he doesn’t expect to re - sign or just K posturing …  but whatever that just bs speculation ...


Re: Jennings
I have followed Jennings fairly closely during his career and obviously to look at his career stats is misleading because of coors but even more so, people love to look at home road splits when judging a player in coors and the problem is (in my opinion) pitchers tend  to over throw, tinker and alter their natural mechanics for coors and it affects there road games because of the habits created in coors – its not as simple as altitude / no altitude …

Had Jennings pitched his career in a different park he would, to me, be  viewed among the top number 2’s in the NL and likely be sporting a career era a run lower – so 12 million isn’t unreasonable … health is an issue only because he’s coming back from injury but I don’t recall any significant history with him …

As for the trade I personally don’t think its that bad because I thought many overrated Willy (who, to me, seemed like an Alex Sanchez type player with a bit better D) and Hirsch seems a whole lot more like a Scott Elarton redux than a high ceiling guy (but who knows that remains to be seen is just my perception) … to me it all hinges on resigning Jennings … and if it is a rental then we gave up a little too much but frankly  there isn’t anything we gave up I particularly miss …

[Noe]

I agree with this opinion, aren't negotiating, we knew that, was on the DL with an arm related injury, knew that too.  Big Baylor is going to be doing the negotiating with Jennings in any case.   

I think the context of what Purpura said was that he wanted to refute the Rocky Mountain News report about 12 million dollars.  I provided the interview alone to avoid all the other clutter for you to listen to.  I tend to fall into the camp that matadorph has set up that this is much ado about nothing.  The Lee/Corpas comments are much more in line with allowing himself the pleasure of saying some un-GM like stuff.  Also his opinion about the umpire's call on Berkman, but other than that, not much there if you ask me.

By and large, he said this to Duke's direct question about this being a "rental" of Jennings.  "Certainly you don't trade for a guy with the idea that he's a rental... having said that..."  So it stands to reason that he is being honest that they were looking for a #2, may of overpaid for the one they got (he wanted Garland and thought he had him) and were intent on keeping him beyond this year.

And then the elbow went "ouchy".  So now things are different and he said "Jennings knows that....".  Just like Andy Pettitte knew that the Astros had concerns over his elbow as well.

[pravata]

it sounds to me like he might be stirring the pot a little on a player that he doesn’t expect to re - sign or just K posturing …  but whatever that just bs speculation ...


Re: Jennings
I have followed Jennings fairly closely during his career and obviously to look at his career stats is misleading because of coors but even more so, people love to look at home road splits when judging a player in coors and the problem is (in my opinion) pitchers tend  to over throw, tinker and alter their natural mechanics for coors and it affects there road games because of the habits created in coors – its not as simple as altitude / no altitude …

Had Jennings pitched his career in a different park he would, to me, be  viewed among the top number 2’s in the NL and likely be sporting a career era a run lower – so 12 million isn’t unreasonable … health is an issue only because he’s coming back from injury but I don’t recall any significant history with him …

As for the trade I personally don’t think its that bad because I thought many overrated Willy (who, to me, seemed like an Alex Sanchez type player with a bit better D) and Hirsch seems a whole lot more like a Scott Elarton redux than a high ceiling guy (but who knows that remains to be seen is just my perception) … to me it all hinges on resigning Jennings … and if it is a rental then we gave up a little too much but frankly  there isn’t anything we gave up I particularly miss …

The other thing that makes Jennings attractive to the Astros is that he didn't freak out at Coors.  It takes an attitude to pitch in Houston.  Left field messed up a bunch of Astros pitchers, and a few hitters.

[WulawHorn]

Purpura: "Our biggest objective is to get him healthy and pitching full-time again for us. There has been absolutely no discussion with Jason or his agents since that one brief meeting."

...."You don't give up that amount of talent with the idea that you're gonna let the player go at the end of the year. But with that said, we now have a situation with a player with some significant injury history and we have to go through this season and see where he does stand from a physical point of view before we make any commitment on dollars, and Jason certainly understands that.

Significant injury history.  Don't want to negotiate.  I don't see any reason to air this in public, and it seems to me likely to inflame.  What do I know though?  I just wouldn't approach it like that and I'm not used to seeing people approach stuff like that (at least with a guy on your roster right now).

Why negotiate in public. Why say anything negative unless and until you have to. I thought that was the very reason the stros never went to arbitration.

[Noe]

Significant injury history.  Don't want to negotiate.  I don't see any reason to air this in public, and it seems to me likely to inflame.  What do I know though?  I just wouldn't approach it like that and I'm not used to seeing people approach stuff like that (at least with a guy on your roster right now).

Why negotiate in public. Why say anything negative unless and until you have to. I thought that was the very reason the stros never went to arbitration.

He said "to reup with a guy who has a *chance* for significant injury history..." and it was in a direct response to Dukes trying to bait him into naming the dollar figure it would take to make him a non-rental.  Again, he was being baited to answer the charge from the Rocky Mountain News of 12 million bones.  Duke was trying to get him to answer the charge by saying "if Jennings pitches well down the stretch, all of a sudden this 12 million dollar pitcher becomes a 15 million dollar pitcher... why wouldn't you just go ahead and negotiate now?".  See Purpura's response in light of *THAT* question.  The RMN report set a lot of folks off that the Astros were dumb for making the trade if this *was* a rental and that 12 million is the dollar figures.  Heck, see the GZ right here to get a feel for how significant that report was.  So Dukes was trying to bait him to answer in terms of dollars... and he wouldn't because *honestly*, he isn't the same pitcher they traded for.  Shit happens, accept the fact that he has a hurt elbow and caution is now the operative word here.  It's being a prudent GM.  Why are folks trying to rewrite history as if Houston knew they would be in this position today when they made the trade?

[WulawHorn]

Again- 3 or 4 posts back I gave a bunch of different, more artful dodges that you hear all the time that I would have been expecting to hear from Purp here instead, he didn't so juberno.

I'll agree with pravata here that $12,000,000.00 doesn't seem astronomical for Jennings, in this climate.

not saying I'd do it if I was the astros, but I am saying that someone, somewhere, will probably do it, so that's his market value (if we labor under the assumption that whatever you do you are worth what someone will pay you).

[Noe]

Again- 3 or 4 posts back I gave a bunch of different, more artful dodges that you hear all the time that I would have been expecting to hear from Purp here instead, he didn't so juberno.

I'll agree with pravata here that $12,000,000.00 doesn't seem astronomical for Jennings, in this climate.

not saying I'd do it if I was the astros, but I am saying that someone, somewhere, will probably do it, so that's his market value (if we labor under the assumption that whatever you do you are worth what someone will pay you).

What did the Astros offer Andy Pettitte and his hurt elbow?  There is your answer.

[homer]

Why are folks trying to rewrite history as if Houston knew they would be in this position today when they made the trade?

Because Ringolsby reported (and inbred JdJO repeated) that Jennings had elbow problems last year so severe that he didn't throw between starts. Nevermind that such a report was based on nothing more than the emanations of Ringolsby's ass.

[WulawHorn]

What did the Astros offer Andy Pettitte and his hurt elbow?  There is your answer.

$12,000,000.00 Right?  Or was it 13?

Something like that.

[Noe]

$12,000,000.00 Right?  Or was it 13?

Something like that.

12, one year.

Jennings won't be looking for a one year deal and right now, If I'm the Astros and since we're talking about an elbow, I'm thinking they would do 12 if Jennings said that is what he wanted... but only one year extention to make sure he's solid on the injury front.  After that, he can then talk about a substantial contract in terms of years.  Or go free agent and cash in.  But to do a multi-year contract right now is just plain stupid and no GM worth his salt would do that *now*!  And if a player harbors ill will towards a GM who is just doing his job, then said player is a douche nozzle for being so petty.  So Purpura is saying it is more prudent to wait for *both* the player and team to be able to talk about more than one year right now, because one year extention at 12 is about all anyone would grant Jennings at this point.

[JackAstro]

He just insinuated it, nothing specific. The two hosts were spoojing on themselves over the idea. Purpura reminded them that nothing may happen tonight... might be the next series.

As the GM, or manager, or whoever, I think you have to let it be known that if a shitbag pitcher throws at your best player over a personal beef that it will dealt with it on the field. Whether it ever happens or not.

Back to this, I agree with you. I'm also wondering what the reaction in the Rockies clubhouse is, if Corpas popped Flapjack for strictly personal reasons. Your team is down by only one run in the 9th, and you take it upon yourself to put a guy on base with no one out because you don't like him? And of course, retribution from the BBGs was swift and brutal in its efficiency. If you're anyone else in that locker room, how do you not rip him a couple of new exit holes for that bullshit?

[Noe]

Back to this, I agree with you. I'm also wondering what the reaction in the Rockies clubhouse is, if Corpas popped Flapjack for strictly personal reasons. Your team is down by only one run in the 9th, and you take it upon yourself to put a guy on base with no one out because you don't like him? And of course, retribution from the BBGs was swift and brutal in its efficiency. If you're anyone else in that locker room, how do you not rip him a couple of new exit holes for that bullshit?

EGGSZACTLY!

[Gizzmonic]

Back to this, I agree with you. I'm also wondering what the reaction in the Rockies clubhouse is, if Corpas popped Flapjack for strictly personal reasons. Your team is down by only one run in the 9th, and you take it upon yourself to put a guy on base with no one out because you don't like him? And of course, retribution from the BBGs was swift and brutal in its efficiency. If you're anyone else in that locker room, how do you not rip him a couple of new exit holes for that bullshit?

That's a good point...not only did it ice the game,  you go out tomorrow knowing that you're probably going to take on in the backside.  Helton and Holliday especially...

[matadorph]

Significant injury history.  Don't want to negotiate.  I don't see any reason to air this in public, and it seems to me likely to inflame.

Purpura said he wants Jennings as long as he's healthy. His comments could just as likely serve as an incentive instead of pissing Jennings off.
 

Why negotiate in public. Why say anything negative unless and until you have to.

I don't think his comments were that negative.

[JackAstro]

EGGSZACTLY!

And I now see that you had already posted pretty much the same point in the other thread. You're just too damn fast, man - I can't keep up.

[JimR]

One year rental of an injured pitcher with a career ERA in the mid 4s and a minor leaguer that JimR himself said "wasn't properly scouted" for what was our #1 and #4 prospect and an everyday CF qualifies as a terrible trade.  Stop drinking the FlavorAid. 

It isn't what Buchholz and Hirsh end up doing, nor is it about what Jennings ends up doing.  At the time, any fucking publication (including the Minor League Prospect chart here on this very website) had both Buchholz and Hirsh in the top 5 of Astros prospects.  You don't fucking trade 2 of your 5 best prospects and your ONLY fucking CF for 1 unusable pitcher (Ascencio) and Jason Jennings. 

Bad trade.  Always will be.  The fact that Jennings probably won't be an Astro after this year makes it downright laughably stupid.

damn, i am sick of reading this broken record shit. i think i'll stop.

[JimR]

Oh my god.  We're comparing Jennings to CARPENTER now??

Maybe I need to take some time off.

outstanding idea, Mr. Happy Junior.

do you have any idea how fucking negative you have become? you were not always like this, and i, for one, do not like who you have become. not that you give a rat's ass what i think, but i remember a likeable, happy kid.

[Noe]

That's a good point...not only did it ice the game,  you go out tomorrow knowing that you're probably going to take on in the backside.  Helton and Holliday especially...

EGGSZACTLY! (Part II)

[ASTROCREEP]

Significant injury history.  Don't want to negotiate.  I don't see any reason to air this in public, and it seems to me likely to inflame.  What do I know though?  I just wouldn't approach it like that and I'm not used to seeing people approach stuff like that (at least with a guy on your roster right now).

Why negotiate in public. Why say anything negative unless and until you have to. I thought that was the very reason the stros never went to arbitration.

Ok I heard it, and most of you know how I feel about Pup. He didn't say anything irresponsible. "We are going to evaluate Jason this year, then talk re-upping in the off season." that's all I heard.

AND Woody should NOT retaliate, that's just stupid.

[CrashTest]

From the Astros' perspective, this was Hirsh for Jennings.  Debate that if you will, but the principle applies that they KNEW they were sacrificing the future for the present.  Prav is exactly correct that they needed an innings-eater.  (Hell, most around here, including myself, were convinced that Wandy had no business in the majors.)

One other thing... the next person I see who posts both that they screwed up by trading Willy, and that they waited too long on PENCE!!!, I'm going to kick him in the nuts.  Hard.

I think that the Astros screwed up by wasting as much time as they did on Willy Taveras in CF. I also think that they waited too long on Hunter Pence. Either Hunter is an incredibly fast learner, or he would have given us just as much or more in CF in 2006 as Taveras did in 2005 - when, as I recall, we somehow managed to play in a WS in spite of Willy's 25 BBs/103 K's and .325 OBP.

[tophfar]

dont feed the troll people.  just resist. 

[Andyzipp]

I think that the Astros screwed up by wasting as much time as they did on Willy Taveras in CF. I also think that they waited too long on Hunter Pence. Either Hunter is an incredibly fast learner, or he would have given us just as much or more in CF in 2006 as Taveras did in 2005 - when, as I recall, we somehow managed to play in a WS in spite of Willy's 25 BBs/103 K's and .325 OBP.

Yes, because starting the FA clock by putting a player in the bigs directly from single A ball is ALWAYS a good idea.

[Noe]

I think that the Astros screwed up by wasting as much time as they did on Willy Taveras in CF. I also think that they waited too long on Hunter Pence. Either Hunter is an incredibly fast learner, or he would have given us just as much or more in CF in 2006 as Taveras did in 2005 - when, as I recall, we somehow managed to play in a WS in spite of Willy's 25 BBs/103 K's and .325 OBP.

Over at the Chron, they have a nice little blog going on started by Jose de Jesus Ortiz about Willy Taveras.  You may just want to go post your view there to see how well your reasoned thoughts will impact what they are saying.  In essence, JdJO says the Astros should've traded Burke instead and used an outfield combination of Lee-Taveras-Pence.

Luke Scott?  Ahum... no mention of him at all... but he does mention Jason Lane and the reason why Pence should be in right.  Go get 'em Tiger!

[pravata]

Over at the Chron, they have a nice little blog going on started by Jose de Jesus Ortiz about Willy Taveras.  You may just want to go post your view there to see how well your reasoned thoughts will impact what they are saying.  In essence, JdJO says the Astros should've traded Burke instead and used an outfield combination of Lee-Taveras-Pence.

Luke Scott?  Ahum... no mention of him at all... but he does mention Jason Lane and the reason why Pence should be in right.  Go get 'em Tiger!

I believe the Rockies originally asked for Burke.

[Noe]

I believe the Rockies originally asked for Burke.

Yes.  Yes they did.

[pravata]

Yes.  Yes they did.

So that means the Astros must've said no. 

[JaneDoe]

I believe the Rockies originally asked for Burke.

Right now I think I'd rather have Taveres

[Noe]

So that means the Astros must've said no. 

Yes.  Yes they did.  And the deal was actually one that Houston was approached about seperately about a month earlier.  And it was not for Jennings.  Colorado just wanted to inquire about Burke.  But when Houston tried to trade Hirsh, Buchholz and Taveras to Chicago for Garland (which if everyone remembers correctly, the reason it did not happen was that the Sox medics thought very lowly about Taylor's shoulder... the Sox *wanted* Taveras because they wanted a speedy CF replacement for Podsednik), the Rocks came back and asked Houston if they would make the same deal (but with Burke instead) for Jennings.   Houston said no to Burke but were willing to trade Taveras instead.

Now Purpura is of the opinion that he overpaid a little.  What he probably thinks he should do next time is treat each trade independently.  Live and learn.

[Noe]

Right now I think I'd rather have Taveres

For the bench?  Hmmmm... good idea!

[ASTROCREEP]

Yes.  Yes they did.  And the deal was actually one that Houston was approached about seperately about a month earlier.  And it was not for Jennings.  Colorado just wanted to inquire about Burke.  But when Houston tried to trade Hirsh, Buchholz and Taveras to Chicago for Garland (which if everyone remembers correctly, the reason it did not happen was that the Sox medics thought very lowly about Taylor's shoulder... the Sox *wanted* Taveras because they wanted a speedy CF replacement for Podsednik), the Rocks came back and asked Houston if they would make the same deal (but with Burke instead) for Jennings.   Houston said no to Burke but were willing to trade Taveras instead.

Now Purpura is of the opinion that he overpaid a little.  What he probably thinks he should do next time is treat each trade independently.  Live and learn.

I wish I never heard that.

[pravata]

Right now I think I'd rather have Taveres

That's not the point.  At the time, Purpura was trying to create a better offensive team.  Pettitte and Clemens told him it was an issue.  Not to mention screaming hordes of palilloids, ortizites, and brightly spinning pinwheels.

[JackAstro]

Yes.  Yes they did.  And the deal was actually one that Houston was approached about seperately about a month earlier.  And it was not for Jennings.  Colorado just wanted to inquire about Burke.  But when Houston tried to trade Hirsh, Buchholz and Taveras to Chicago for Garland (which if everyone remembers correctly, the reason it did not happen was that the Sox medics thought very lowly about Taylor's shoulder... the Sox *wanted* Taveras because they wanted a speedy CF replacement for Podsednik), the Rocks came back and asked Houston if they would make the same deal (but with Burke instead) for Jennings.   Houston said no to Burke but were willing to trade Taveras instead.

Now Purpura is of the opinion that he overpaid a little.  What he probably thinks he should do next time is treat each trade independently.  Live and learn.

One minor nit - Podsednik plays LF for the Hose. He hasn't been a regular CF since Milwaukee.

[pravata]

Yes.  Yes they did.  And the deal was actually one that Houston was approached about seperately about a month earlier.  And it was not for Jennings.  Colorado just wanted to inquire about Burke.  But when Houston tried to trade Hirsh, Buchholz and Taveras to Chicago for Garland (which if everyone remembers correctly, the reason it did not happen was that the Sox medics thought very lowly about Taylor's shoulder... the Sox *wanted* Taveras because they wanted a speedy CF replacement for Podsednik), the Rocks came back and asked Houston if they would make the same deal (but with Burke instead) for Jennings.   Houston said no to Burke but were willing to trade Taveras instead.

Now Purpura is of the opinion that he overpaid a little.  What he probably thinks he should do next time is treat each trade independently.  Live and learn.

I'm not sure about the shoulder excuse.  I've seen that no medical records were exchanged.

[CrashTest]

dont feed the troll people.  just resist. 

I get the distinct impression that most people on this board are sincerely pissed that Hunter Pence is doing so well. Pravata, lecturing to me like I was a moron --"Watch Crash, watch what they do to him in the next AB --- as he launches a triple". No, you guys PLAYED the game, or you THINK about the game SOOO much better than mortal snake scum such as I. So, it becomes a banishable offense to stick an "I told you so boot" up your collective asses. "Just wait, Crash, when Pence goes through the league a second or a third or a fourth time, boy are they going to get the book on him". You insufferable pricks.....

[Noe]

I'm not sure about the shoulder excuse.  I've seen that no medical records were exchanged.

It is, as been told to me, an excuse that Ken Williams wanted to use so he can back away from a deal he decided at the last minute he didn't want to make.  I don't really know why he wanted an excuse to slam the door on the deal, but he did.  It surprised Taylor for sure, but then again, this is the same GM who sold Toronto a bill of goods named Mike Sirotka and then blamed them for not doing their due diligence on the medical records.  Buyer beware was the ultimate decision by the league office when the Jays filed a protest.  Seems Williams made what he called a good decision based on medical records on Taylor moreso than just a coverup to me... but that is just me.  Besides, he made a much better deal later with the Rangers when he acquired Danks for McCarthy.  That may of been one of the reasons he decided to back away from the Houston deal... the Texas deal was brewing and he felt he could pull that one off to better his team and still keep Garland in the fold.

[JaneDoe]

For the bench?  Hmmmm... good idea!

I just don't like Chris "sour grapes" Burke on the bench.  At least Willy had some speed.  This team is damn slow.

[JaneDoe]

That's not the point.  At the time, Purpura was trying to create a better offensive team.  Pettitte and Clemens told him it was an issue.  Not to mention screaming hordes of palilloids, ortizites, and brightly spinning pinwheels.

I'm not questioning the trade.  I am just saying that, right now, I'd rather have Taveres' speed than Burke off the bench.

By the way, that would make a great book title: Palilloids, Ortizites, and Brightly Spinning Pinwheels (or a Primer on idiotic Houston Sports "fans")

[Noe]

I get the distinct impression that most people on this board are sincerely pissed that Hunter Pence is doing so well. Pravata, lecturing to me like I was a moron --"Watch Crash, watch what they do to him in the next AB --- as he launches a triple". No, you guys PLAYED the game, or you THINK about the game SOOO much better than mortal snake scum such as I. So, it becomes a banishable offense to stick an "I told you so boot" up your collective asses. "Just wait, Crash, when Pence goes through the league a second or a third or a fourth time, boy are they going to get the book on him". You insufferable pricks.....

You do know that you're basically admitting to trolling for fights and that alone is a reason to jettison your arse?  Don't ever think you were given the boot for saying "I told you so!", that won't happen.  Who cares what you fucking think about other people on this board any way.   Good bye.

[Noe]

I wish I never heard that.

Why?

[JackAstro]

I get the distinct impression that most people on this board are sincerely pissed that Hunter Pence is doing so well. Pravata, lecturing to me like I was a moron --"Watch Crash, watch what they do to him in the next AB --- as he launches a triple". No, you guys PLAYED the game, or you THINK about the game SOOO much better than mortal snake scum such as I. So, it becomes a banishable offense to stick an "I told you so boot" up your collective asses. "Just wait, Crash, when Pence goes through the league a second or a third or a fourth time, boy are they going to get the book on him". You insufferable pricks.....

I assume you know what insufferable means. So why exactly are you choosing to suffer the insufferable pricks? The internets are vast, go explore the space a little.

[Bench]

I get the distinct impression that most people on this board are sincerely pissed that Hunter Pence is doing so well. Pravata, lecturing to me like I was a moron --"Watch Crash, watch what they do to him in the next AB --- as he launches a triple". No, you guys PLAYED the game, or you THINK about the game SOOO much better than mortal snake scum such as I. So, it becomes a banishable offense to stick an "I told you so boot" up your collective asses. "Just wait, Crash, when Pence goes through the league a second or a third or a fourth time, boy are they going to get the book on him". You insufferable pricks.....

I guess I completely missed your debut, but your finale makes me want to see the outtakes.

[Noe]

I just don't like Chris "sour grapes" Burke on the bench.  At least Willy had some speed.  This team is damn slow.

I agree that Willy Taveras would be welcome on my bench any day of the week... unless he broods over the demotion that is.  Word is he started to in 2006 and then decided to be a good citizen and work his arse off to get back in there.  Good for him.  But with Pence and Scott, Willy has no starting job in Houston right now.  At the start of the season?  Well, according the Chron brain trust he would've had a lock on centerfield and Pence would be up right now to replace Jason Lane.

Here is what I sincerely do not understand: What happened to Luke Scott in that scenario?  My real point is this, folks who throw together shit think they are acting like a sane, rational GM (not you, I'm talking about the Chron blog that is now in it's 1 millionth post about the genius of Lee-Taveras-Pence and why oh why is JdJO not the GM of this team!).  They don't use a logical progression nor scenario based "if I trade this guy, I have to move this guy" type of thinking.  They throw three guys in a lineup and say the work is done.

Odd that they actually think they are on to something that smacks of reality for a GM when actually, it's all fantacrap!

[ASTROCREEP]

Why?

Having Jennings, Willy (even if he would see a lot of bench) and no Burke, whould make me very happy.

AND you would have a very good late inning defensive outfield guy.

[Noe]

Having Jennings, Willy (even if he would see a lot of bench) and no Burke, whould make me very happy.

AND you would have a very good late inning defensive outfield guy.

pravata already told you about the offense needs that they were trying to address, heck... they didn't hide that from anyone who bothered to pay attention.   It's good Willy is doing well, many here voiced the displeasure of losing a fine player like him (see: R., Jim) so it's nothing really new.  I think you're coming in late in the game, but you're not alone in your opinion that Burke being gone instead of Willy would've been better.

But Willy did himself no favors by being a guy who rarely, if ever, got the ball out of the infield here in Houston.  False blip on the radar?  I dunno, they probably thought he was just that kind of player and for whatever it's worth, they didn't see much help coming his way as a regular starter if that is all he could offer.

Hunter Pence was not even on the radar when they made that trade either, so no one had Lee-Pence-Scott or Lee-Taveras-Pence on their minds when the trade was done.  They had Lee-Burke-Scott/Lane for sure and on paper it looked solid.  I don't blame them for their thought process... at this point, it is all about realizing your worse fears about your decisions going south in a hurry.

[ASTROCREEP]

pravata already told you about the offense needs that they were trying to address, heck... they didn't hide that from anyone who bothered to pay attention.   It's good Willy is doing well, many here voiced the displeasure of losing a fine player like him (see: R., Jim) so it's nothing really new.  I think you're coming in late in the game, but you're not alone in your opinion that Burke being gone instead of Willy would've been better.

But Willy did himself no favors by being a guy who rarely, if ever, got the ball out of the infield here in Houston.  False blip on the radar?  I dunno, they probably thought he was just that kind of player and for whatever it's worth, they didn't see much help coming his way as a regular starter if that is all he could offer.

Hunter Pence was not even on the radar when they made that trade either, so no one had Lee-Pence-Scott or Lee-Taveras-Pence on their minds when the trade was done.  They had Lee-Burke-Scott/Lane for sure and on paper it looked solid.  I don't blame them for their thought process... at this point, it is all about realizing your worse fears about your decisions going south in a hurry.

Willy > Burke  (the alligator eats the better one right) any way you look at. It's hard to have a discussion with you because you won't take a stance. IF you think Burke is better fine, it's not like we are comparing Willy Mays to Casey Candeale. Willy better starting, better on the bench, faster, better defense. I don't see the evidence for Burke being a better choice.

[Noe]

Willy > Burke  (the alligator eats the better one right) any way you look at. It's hard to have a discussion with because you won't take a stance. IF you think Burke is better fine, it's not like we are comparing Willy Mays to Casey Candeale. Willy better starting, better on the bench, faster, better defense. I don't see the evidence for Burke being a better choice.

I already told JaneDoe that I would take Willy on my bench every freaking time.  Is that not clear?  I was merely responding to your inquiry about the team's thinking, primarily why Purpura (and not me) made this deal.  I thought you were questioning their attitudes and thinking, not mine.  I thought I was helping you understand.... guess not.

[ASTROCREEP]

I already told JaneDoe that I would take Willy on my bench every freaking time.  Is that not clear?  I was merely responding to your inquiry about the team's thinking, primarily why Purpura (and not me) made this deal.  I thought you were questioning their attitudes and thinking, not mine.  I thought I was helping you understand.... guess not.

It's pretty clear that Purpura saw more potential in Burke than Willy. I will probably never understand why.

But I want your opinion. What's wrong with voicing your opinion? I have never claimed to know more about baseball than you and Pravata. How else will those of us who have spent less time around the game learn?

Edit: There are a lot of ways. Let me put it this way. Is there a better way to learn more about baseball than to get opinions of those that know more? Come on share.

[Noe]

It's pretty clear that Purpura saw more potential in Burke than Willy. I will probably never understand why.

But I want your opinion. What's wrong with voicing your opinion? I have never claimed to know more about baseball than you and Pravata. How else will those of us who have spent less time around the game learn?

I don't know about pravata, but what I know and what I think are two different things and really, in the end, who gives a rat's arse about what I think when the discussion is about the Houston Astros and what *they* think (I was clearly talking about what the Astros did during the trade this offseason with pravata and yourself, which is a much better subject to talk about than what the heck I *think*). 

That is all that matters. 

If we *only* talked about what we each thought, we'd be the Chronicle Blogs and frankly, they already exist for that reason.  We wouldn't need this OWA, we can simply go spout our dried up opinions in those blogs and be done with it.

Am I missing something here?

[ASTROCREEP]

I don't know about pravata, but what I know and what I think are two different things and really, in the end, who gives a rat's arse about what I think when the discussion is about the Houston Astros and what *they* think (I was clearly talking about what the Astros did during the trade this offseason with pravata). 

That is all that matters. 

If we *only* talked about what we each thought, we'd be the Chronicle Blogs and frankly, they already exist for that reason.  We wouldn't need this OWA, we can simply go spout our dried up opinions in those blogs and be done with it.

Am I missing something here?

Yes, if you ONLY voice your personal opinion, yes this forum would suck. Just throw in a personal opinion every once in a while. Some of us may benefit from it.

[Rammer33]

Willy > Burke  (the alligator eats the better one right) any way you look at. It's hard to have a discussion with you because you won't take a stance. IF you think Burke is better fine, it's not like we are comparing Willy Mays to Casey Candeale. Willy better starting, better on the bench, faster, better defense. I don't see the evidence for Burke being a better choice.

while Willy is certainly off to a good year - I still think Burke has a higher offensive ceiling and a little bit more versatility long term ... I admit to being very skeptical of all rule 5 guys and never really got on board with Willy (although he did improve his D in center markedly, IMO) ... but I felt offensively he was a perfect example of what some call a hollow batting average ... really reminded me of Alex Sanchez from his Detroit Milwaukee days - high average / weak hit singles / no walks / fast but not the greatest baserunner ... To me, overall Willy was a player who used his one great asset (his speed) to make up for deficiencies in most other areas - it compensated for bad breaks in center / it beat out poorly hit balls / it made him appear a better base runner than he is ... and in the end that’s fine  - however you get it done is great … but thinking long term, to me, this is a dangerous asset to hang your hat on with a player because they can and will loose speed - and usually much earlier than other attributes ... now Willy could improve and he has been off to a good start but if he looses a significant amount of that speed (via injury or age) I think every single area of his makeup as a player suffers significantly because it is so interdependant – this isn’t to say he becomes Glen Barker but he wouldn’t be a starter and even with his speed was tetering on the edge of that …

Therefore as a long term player generally I’d favor Burke if only because of his higher ceiling offensively … but it certainly appears like a very close call at this point given this seasons happenings not to mention I would rather have Willy for the present on this teams bench ... just my two cents ...

[Noe]

Yes, if you ONLY voice your personal opinion, yes this forum would suck. Just throw in a personal opinion every once in a while. Some of us may benefit from it.

Again, what part of "I would welcome Willy Taveras on my bench every day of the week" did you *not* understand?

[pravata]

Yes, if you ONLY voice your personal opinion, yes this forum would suck. Just throw in a personal opinion every once in a while. Some of us may benefit from it.

Doubtful.  I rarely do.  I dont trust my own personal opinion, why am I going to trust any of ya'lls?

[ASTROCREEP]

while Willy is certainly off to a good year - I still think Burke has a higher offensive ceiling and a little bit more versatility long term ... I admit to being very skeptical of all rule 5 guys and never really got on board with Willy (although he did improve his D in center markedly, IMO) ... but I felt offensively he was a perfect example of what some call a hollow batting average ... really reminded me of Alex Sanchez from his Detroit Milwaukee days - high average / weak hit singles / no walks / fast but not the greatest baserunner ... To me, overall Willy was a player who used his one great asset (his speed) to make up for deficiencies in most other areas - it compensated for bad breaks in center / it beat out poorly hit balls / it made him appear a better base runner than he is ... and in the end that’s fine however you get it done is great … but thinking long term to me this is a dangerous asset to hang your hat on with a player because they can and will loose speed -  and usually earlier than other sttributes ... now Willy could improve and he has been off to a good start but if he looses a significant amount of that speed (via injury or age) I think every single area of his makeup as a player suffers because it is so dependant – this isn’t to say he becomes Glen Barker but he wouldn’t be a starter and even with his speed was tetering on the edge of that …

Therefore as a long term player generally I’d favor Burke if only because of his higher ceiling offensively … but it certainly appears like a very close call at this point given this seasons happenings not to mention I would rather have Willy for the present on this teams bench but again I am usually more wrong than right …

Yeah, we are comparing Peaches to Nectarines, i personally think Nectarines are better and have more upside.

[Noe]

Therefore as a long term player generally I’d favor Burke if only because of his higher ceiling offensively … but it certainly appears like a very close call at this point given this seasons happenings not to mention I would rather have Willy for the present on this teams bench but again I am usually more wrong than right …

Eggszactly!  Willy is much better suited for the *current* Burke role on this team.

[ASTROCREEP]

Doubtful.  I rarely do.  I dont trust my own personal opinion, why am I going to trust any of ya'lls?

You doubt that some of us may benefit from your opinions? You are too humble.

[Noe]

Doubtful.  I rarely do.  I dont trust my own personal opinion, why am I going to trust any of ya'lls?

Especially if we're clearly talking about what Purpura was thinking at the time.  Who *CARES* what I think when it is much more facinating to dissect his thinking instead.  I mean, he actually does this for a living and shit.

[ASTROCREEP]

Eggszactly!  Willy is much better suited for the *current* Burke role on this team.

BINGO!!! Thankyou!

(same response, had I disagreed)

[Noe]

You doubt that some of us may benefit from your opinions? You are too humble.

Not when you think it is much more informed than Tim Purpura, no... you get no added benefit at all.  Just a lot of hot air.  So everything depends on what the subject matter at hand happens to be.

[Noe]

BINGO!!! Thankyou!

(same response, had I disagreed)

I said it waaaaaaaaaay back before you asked me to say it, Mr. Bingo.

[ASTROCREEP]

Especially if we're clearly talking about what Purpura was thinking at the time.  Who *CARES* what I think when it is much more facinating to dissect his thinking instead.  I mean, he actually does this for a living and shit.

both are good.

[Noe]

both are good.

Independent of each other, not mixed.  Once again, I thought you were jumping into the discussion pravata and I were clearly having about the Astros thinking (not our own).  Next time, I'll just not think anything and quite possibly ignore your jumping into the discussion about what we know or even think about the Astros thinking.  It is way too complicated for you.

[Burzmali]

Have a look at Chris Carpenter's career stats before he signed with the Cards. Some players need time before everything clicks.

Given what we've seen of Jennings last year and his performance in limited action this season, I think he's a potential gem-in-the-making.

I feel like I'm constantly repeating this, but Jennings was the 11th best pitcher in the majors last year (according to VORP stats).

This was an outstanding trade.

Got an OBP hole out of the lineup, added a legitimate #2 starter, and only cost two decent, not great, pitching prospects.

Alkie: Just because Hirsh was one the Astros' best prospects doesn't mean he was a great prospect. Take into account the relative strength of farm systems.

[ASTROCREEP]

Independent of each other, not mixed.  Once again, I thought you were jumping into the discussion pravata and I were clearly having about the Astros thinking (not our own).  Next time, I'll just not think anything and quite possibly ignore your jumping into the discussion about what we know or even think about the Astros thinking.  It is way too complicated for you.

not too complicated, sometimes less interesting. This is a game we are all talking about right?

And I don't value your opinion more than Purpuras. I think sometimes it is pointless to try to figure out what Purpura is thinking when there are SOOOO many factors we don't have a clue about.

[WulawHorn]

Chris Burke is the worstest excuse for a roster spot in MLB history now that Jasin LAME (hahahahaha) is off the roster and sent to siberia!!!!!!!

The above would be my thought on the matter.

As to why Purp thought he was a  better option then Chrimson Chin for late inning defense, spelling at short stop in spot duty and what not I have nary a clue.

But as to why he was not included in the trade and Wily was I can speculate (actually I think I read it somewhere too from Purpura) that Burke was considered essential to their long term plans post 3,000 Biggio at 2b and Pence was slated to be in the bigs 4/1/08 and had to man CF so it wouldn't make any sense to trade Burke instead of Tavarez.

I understand the thought process completely, just wish it wouldn't have backfired with Burke shitting the bed.  Maybe he is still salvagable, but I don't see it.  I've never seen it in him.

Of course- I was the idiot (ok one of) that said that I thought the Stros needed to trade lidge to get him out of town and someone else in his ear to get him back right, that I thought he was broken in H-town (I still support trading him if he has enough value to fix one of the organizational black holes at C, 3b and 2b and maybe RF).

[Noe]

not too complicated, sometimes less interesting. This is a game we are all talking about right?

And I don't value your opinion more than Purpuras. I think sometimes it is pointless to try to figure out what Purpura is thinking when there are SOOOO many factors we don't have a clue about.

Well, you wanted my opinion and I gave it to you.

[pravata]

You doubt that some of us may benefit from your opinions? You are too humble.

Humble has nothing to do with it, believe me.  Look at my number of posts, has any of you nut jobs moved a spec off clueless?  No.  No ya'll haven't.  I know three things about baseball, how to field a groundball at 3rd (I also know exactly why I can't field grounders at short) how to field a flyball in center (not so much left or right, don't like bananas,) and how to steal a base (my generally base running skills tend more to hair on fire).  Everything else, I rely on direct observation, the statements of the participants, and the opinion of proven experts.  I prefer teams that play with skill and hustle and I'd like for them to not be obviously assholes.  But, if I don't get that, I'm not going to piss and moan and insist they do what I want. I'll just stop watching.  Baseball is an entertainment, if I'm not entertained, what variety of idiot am I?

[JackAstro]

Humble has nothing to do with it, believe me.  Look at my number of posts, has any of you nut jobs moved a spec off clueless?  No.  No ya'll haven't.  I know three things about baseball, how to field a groundball at 3rd (I also know exactly why I can't field grounders at short) how to field a flyball in center (not so much left or right, don't like bananas,) and how to steal a base (my generally base running skills tend more to hair on fire).  Everything else, I rely on direct observation, the statements of the participants, and the opinion of proven experts.  I prefer teams that play with skill and hustle and I'd like for them to not be obviously assholes.  But, if I don't get that, I'm not going to piss and moan and insist they do what I want. I'll just stop watching.  Baseball is an entertainment, if I'm not entertained, what variety of idiot am I?

That is strong, strong work.

[EasTexAstro]

Any chance there was a thought about Willy's agent in all this?

[JimR]

Any chance there was a thought about Willy's agent in all this?

of course there was. don't let facts get in the way of rants.

[Jose Cruz III]

Willy > Burke  (the alligator eats the better one right) any way you look at. It's hard to have a discussion with you because you won't take a stance. IF you think Burke is better fine, it's not like we are comparing Willy Mays to Casey Candeale. Willy better starting, better on the bench, faster, better defense. I don't see the evidence for Burke being a better choice.

Willy did a good job with what he had to work with, but he had as many infield hits as he did outfield hits. With runners on base infield hits turn into fielders choices. Especially late in the game.

Burke, when he is on and not brooding or pressing, has 10-15 homer pop and can put the ball in the gap. Those don't turn into fielders choices. Neither plays Maysesque, or even Garry Madduxesque, defense. Willy is faster but is not a great basestealer. And he really is not that much faster.

If I'm Purp, which I am not, I would have made the same decision between Burke and Willy. I would have kept Burke.

[WulawHorn]

I always said the problem with wily and all his infield hits was that if your game was built on speed to that extent then you have to be in great shape and health all the time.

What happens when a guy who makes his living completely b/c of his speed tweaks something or strains something.  Many guys can go at 85% of top speed just fine- it really doesn't make that much of a difference on most hits, but if you gotta be 100% to succeed and beat a throw to first by an eyelash how you gonna get on base on infield singles if you are going at less than top speed.

CF defense was the same way with his poor routes and unsteady breaks to the ball.

T