Pence at the top of the lineup? OMG!!!

[Noe]

I made the mistake of venturing out of this domain to read up on Astros doings.  One prominent thought out there about Hunter Pence is that Phil Garner should stick him at the top of the lineup to make things happen for this club.  Whaaa?

Does anyone, I mean anyone, just stop and think for a millisecond about what they type or say?  Pence as a leadoff or #2 hitter?  Really, that is what some want Garner to do?  What part of "free swinger" and "minor leaguer with one year in AA and a month in AAA" do they not understand?  That says "top of the lineup" to some?  Oh deer lowered!  Great, lets just make it harder to score runs by putting a free swinging, fastball hitting, rookie out of the minors at the top of the lineup, shall we?  He'll never see a fastball to hit there!  He'll have to hit his way on and major league pitchers are not stupid.

Best way to break a lineup too.

[Phil_in_CS]

Were these the same folks that wanted Burke batting 5th?

[hostros7]

But he runs so much faster around the bases than Biggio....he HAS to hit leadoff.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I started to post a counter point but, in doing so, completely talked myself out of any possible "positives" of this idea.  It's just a bad idea, all the way around.  His speed is nice but it's not why he's here. 

[Noe]

Were these the same folks that wanted Burke batting 5th?

Yes, some of them were certainly on the "Burke is a power hitter" bandwagon at one time.

[pravata]

Were these the same folks that wanted Burke batting 5th?

Same fans that John Lopez thinks convinced the foolish Astros management that PENCE! would be the spark the team needed.  You have to wonder who in the Astros management they convinced.   I have seen PENCE! in exactly 4 atbats and I can already say that only the most jingle headed pitchers are going to throw him a strike.

[Noe]

But he runs so much faster around the bases than Biggio....he HAS to hit leadoff.

You can't steal first base.  But be that as if may, the argument against Biggio is moot (or mute if you're Limey).   He ain't a'movin out of leadoff anytime soon.  Having said that, if you want a leadoff hitter, his name is Burke, Chris Burke.  If you want to, however, get Mr. Energizer Bunny hitting at the top, that is the best way to keep him from seeing a fastball for the rest of his rookie season.  Pence would have to alter his approach to hitting drastically to make a contribution to this team.  So if he is successful in doing so, you've just taken the potential for good run production and made him a leadoff hitter, whose job certainly is different in terms of approach.  Same with #2.  So people actually like Pence to make such a stupid suggestion, same with Burke hitting #6 in the lineup?

[Noe]

His speed is nice but it's not why he's here. 

EGGSZACTLY!

[Noe]

Same fans that John Lopez thinks convinced the foolish Astros management that PENCE! would be the spark the team needed.  You have to wonder who in the Astros management they convinced.   I have seen PENCE! in exactly 4 atbats and I can already say that only the most jingle headed pitchers are going to throw him a strike.

The Energizer Bunny schtick is being played way too much around these parts when it comes to Pence.  The media and fans wanted him up here, fine... he's here!  So now they want to change him?  Make him alter his approach to hitting so he can leadoff just so we can see that oh so wonderful energy running the bases?  Whaaaa?  And he'll not see one fastball to hit unless it is a show me fastball.   You know the kind, the one that is just above the hands or below the knees that a major league pitcher can throw unlike a minor leaguer can.  That fastball.  Hitting down in the lineup, perhaps sandwiched between Lee and Scott or some variation, would give him lots more opportunities to help than trying to make him the patient (as opposed to his free swinger ways) hitter he'd have to be at leadoff.

You know what, he's a lot more energetic when he's driving in runs and he's rounding the bases in a very hippity-hoppity way regardless.  Houston needs a middle of the lineup hitter right now to drive in runs.  Call up Pence to see what he can do and after two games, folks want him to move out and ignore what's broke and why he's here to try and help fix it?

*sigh*

[WulawHorn]

You can't steal first base.  But be that as if may, the argument against Biggio is moot (or mute if you're Limey).   He ain't a'movin out of leadoff anytime soon.  Having said that, if you want a leadoff hitter, his name is Burke, Chris Burke.  If you want to, however, get Mr. Energizer Bunny hitting at the top, that is the best way to keep him from seeing a fastball for the rest of his rookie season.  Pence would have to alter his approach to hitting drastically to make a contribution to this team.  So if he is successful in doing so, you've just taken the potential for good run production and made him a leadoff hitter, whose job certainly is different in terms of approach.  Same with #2.  So people actually like Pence to make such a stupid suggestion, same with Burke hitting #6 in the lineup?

Noe- I am honestly asking, but what makes you say that him hitting second would mean no fastballs- I heard Kevin Bass say that Everett should hit second b/c he would see FB hitting in front of Berkman. I thought that was why Bell succeeded hitting second.  Help me out- I'm confused.

[Noe]

Noe- I am honestly asking, but what makes you say that him hitting second would mean no fastballs- I heard Kevin Bass say that Everett should hit second b/c he would see FB hitting in front of Berkman. I thought that was why Bell succeeded hitting second.  Help me out- I'm confused.

I didn't say hitting second would mean less fastballs.  I said leadoff (which more of a problem with what I say than what you read, given how bad I am at stating things).  Hitting second though is a different approach than middle of the order, if he sees a fastball, it will be because your leadoff is doing his job and getting on.  A pitcher would rather face the #2 guy with fastballs and hope to hell he doesn't know how to contact hit well and thus hit into a lot of DPs.  If said #2 is swinging from the heels, trying to pull everything, then he's a candidate for some bad outcomes.  A good #2 knows how to contact hit and thus hit behind a runner or hit up the middle more (gap to gap).  And free swinging, power guy who swings well on a fastball to lose it is not entirely the way you want the top of the lineup hitters to approach their job in the lineup.  Middle of the lineup?  Why yes, please do!  Still confused?

BTW - if folks are saying they want Pence to be the next Carlos Beltran hitting second in the lineup, then make a case for it.  I'll listen.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I didn't say hitting second would mean less fastballs.  I said leadoff (which more of a problem with what I say than what you read, given how bad I am at stating things).  Hitting second though is a different approach than middle of the order, if he sees a fastball, it will be because your leadoff is doing his job and getting on.  A pitcher would rather face the #2 guy with fastballs and hope to hell he doesn't know how to contact him well and thus hit into a lot of DPs.  A good #2 knows how to contact hit and thus hit behind a runner.  And free swinging is not entirely the way you want the top of the lineup hitters to approach their job in the lineup.  Middle of the lineup?  Why yes, please do!  Still confused?

BTW - if folks are saying they want Pence to be the next Carlos Beltran hitting second in the lineup, then make a case for it.  I'll listen.

I suspect this last part is what those clammoring for this change have in mind.  What they feel to consider is that Beltran struggled with that role before growing into it, so it's no quick fix to the Astros woes.  Also, Beltran is probably more inconsistant than most people realize and tends to struggle unless he's backed by some serious power hitters because (queue chime) he won't see many fastballs! 

For the love of mercy, let the kid grow in a non-critical role and then put him where he'll help the team most, once he's got his legs under him.  He's here because Burke was awful in CF.  That's it... and maybe the fact that Ensburg hits like an 9 yr old.

[Bench]

That's it... and maybe the fact that Ensburg hits like an 9 yr old.

Most 9 year olds swing the bat.

[WulawHorn]

I read Top of the lineup as being eithier first or second (that's just how I conceptalize it- with middle of the lineup being 3-6 or 7 depending on depth of good hitters and 8 and 9 being bottom of the lineup of course). If you are confining it to leadoff then I get what you are saying about fastballs- I was just thinking at #2 he might see a bunch (predicated on the leadoff hitter getting on which hasn't happened regularly enough since bidge started his decline).

I even understand why you are saying about him not being suited for #2. I really loved Beltran there, and would like to see if Pence could duplicate some of that, but I also like him at #5 (in front of a lamb or Scott) b/c at 6 I'm afraid he gets buried with nothing but junk in front of Everett, Ausmuss pitcher- I'd like to see a little bit more experienced (I'm looking at Lamb here) guy.

Biggio- 2b
Lorretta-3b
Berk- RF
Lee-LF
Pence-CF
Lamb-1b
Everett
Catcher
Pitcher.

I'm ok with tryinig Pence at 2 hole with Scott in RB, Berkman back at 1b and Lamb at 3b- especially against righties.  Just a thought.  No desire to see him hit leadoff and hitting #2 would be experiemental behind the above posted lineup.

[Noe]

I suspect this last part is what those clammoring for this change have in mind.

Understood and actually appreciated.  But Beltran had the following people in front of him and behind him: Biggio, Berkman, Bagwell, Kent and Lane.  All were hitting well.  Add in Mike Lamb who hit really well that season as well, and you can afford to make #2 a different role for the club.  Igniter?  Sure, why not.  I would understand that.  Now, what in this lineup today tells you that all that is needed is an igniter at #2?

What they feel to consider is that Beltran struggled with that role before growing into it, so it's no quick fix to the Astros woes.  Also, Beltran is probably more inconsistant than most people realize and tends to struggle unless he's backed by some serious power hitters because (queue chime) he won't see many fastballs!

Si, eso!  Beltran didn't do squat during the season.  It was during the playoffs that he took off.  The guys who benefitted from Beltran running around the bases was Berkman and Bagwell and some Kent.  It actually worked in reverse... the middle guys got the fastballs to hit, not Beltran. 

For the love of mercy, let the kid grow in a non-critical role and then put him where he'll help the team most, once he's got his legs under him.  He's here because Burke was awful in CF.  That's it... and maybe the fact that Ensburg hits like an 9 yr old.

I still feel that the reason Pence is up here is two-fold: Burke's defense and MoBerg hitting like he like the two hole more than being a middle of the lineup hitter.  With Scott/Lane also slumping, with Berkman hitting like he's never been a major leaguer and Lee trying to do too much, they need a middle of the lineup hitter.  Pence at #2 isn't what I think will help change that.  MoBerg hitting like he should would change that, but he hasn't done anything to make himself a good #5.

At the beginning of the year (actually well before then) the #5 in the lineup was identified by the Astros are the critical part of making this lineup work.  It was expected that MoBerg was going to rebound and be said #5 who would help the team.  Darnit if he didn't just move into the two spot and like it (and walking isn't what the position is all about any way... igniter?  MoBerg?  I dunno about that, he has no wheels).

So at a given point and time if they want to do a "Beltran" with Pence, then sure, do it... but not now, and certainly not until they prove they have a middle of the lineup that is producing enough to give Pence the chance to hit in that spot.  But realize this, not even Beltran is hitting #2 any more.  The playoffs in 2004 was not the norm, it was a short time, repleat with a compact time of performance.  The regular season, Beltran was a woeful performer at #2.

[DVauthrin]

Understood and actually appreciated.  But Beltran had the following people in front of him and behind him: Biggio, Berkman, Bagwell, Kent and Lane.  All were hitting well.  Add in Mike Lamb who hit really well that season as well, and you can afford to make #2 a different role for the club.  Igniter?  Sure, why not.  I would understand that.  Now, what in this lineup today tells you that all that is needed is an igniter at #2?

Si, eso!  Beltran didn't do squat during the season.  It was during the playoffs that he took off.  The guys who benefitted from Beltran running around the bases was Berkman and Bagwell and some Kent.  It actually worked in reverse... the middle guys got the fastballs to hit, not Beltran. 

I still feel that the reason Pence is up here is two-fold: Burke's defense and MoBerg hitting like he like the two hole more than being a middle of the lineup hitter.  With Scott/Lane also slumping, with Berkman hitting like he's never been a major leaguer and Lee trying to do too much, they need a middle of the lineup hitter.  Pence at #2 isn't what I think will help change that.  MoBerg hitting like he should would change that, but he hasn't done anything to make himself a good #5.

At the beginning of the year (actually well before then) the #5 in the lineup was identified by the Astros are the critical part of making this lineup work.  It was expected that MoBerg was going to rebound and be said #5 who would help the team.  Darnit if he didn't just move into the two spot and like it (and walking isn't what the position is all about any way... igniter?  MoBerg?  I dunno about that, he has no wheels).

So at a given point and time if they want to do a "Beltran" with Pence, then sure, do it... but not now, and certainly not until they prove they have a middle of the lineup that is producing enough to give Pence the chance to hit in that spot.  But realize this, not even Beltran is hitting #2 any more.  The playoffs in 2004 was not the norm, it was a short time, repleat with a compact time of performance.  The regular season, Beltran was a woeful performer at #2.

Loretta is the number 2 hitter they need.  Just stick him at 3b, banish ensberg to the bench and be done with it.

[MusicMan]

Loretta is the number 2 hitter they need.  Just stick him at 3b, banish ensberg to the bench and be done with it.

Not that simple.  From the little I've sen of him there, "serviceable" is the best his defense is going to be,.

[homer]

Loretta is the number 2 hitter they need.  Just stick him at 3b, banish ensberg to the bench and be done with it.

Ensberg pinch hitting sounds like a bad idea.

[Noe]

I read Top of the lineup as being eithier first or second (that's just how I conceptalize it- with middle of the lineup being 3-6 or 7 depending on depth of good hitters and 8 and 9 being bottom of the lineup of course). If you are confining it to leadoff then I get what you are saying about fastballs- I was just thinking at #2 he might see a bunch (predicated on the leadoff hitter getting on which hasn't happened regularly enough since bidge started his decline).

My point wasn't clear and I know it.  I was very bad at relaying what I wanted to say.  So let's leave it right there where you have it.  Fastballs at #2 are contingent on who is hitting behind you and ahead of you.  Berkman won't of himself get you more fastballs, but if you're a power hitting guy and no one is on base, as a pitcher, you're not seeing any fastballs beyond the show me kind or if I have you set up for a good fastball at the knees.  But a good challenge fastball happens more at the #2 if the leadoff is on and lurking over there at the on-deck circle is Berkman with Lee in the hold.

I even understand why you are saying about him not being suited for #2. I really loved Beltran there, and would like to see if Pence could duplicate some of that, but I also like him at #5 (in front of a lamb or Scott) b/c at 6 I'm afraid he gets buried with nothing but junk in front of Everett, Ausmuss pitcher- I'd like to see a little bit more experienced (I'm looking at Lamb here) guy.

You do understand that Beltran hit in a stacked lineup and still had a woeful half a season hitting.  He hit for power easy enough, but overall, he didn't really hit well as a #2.  I even remember Roger Clemens saying he was surprised how well Beltran did in the playoffs because the season never indicated he was going to do this well.

Biggio- 2b
Lorretta-3b
Berk- RF
Lee-LF
Pence-CF
Lamb-1b
Everett
Catcher
Pitcher.

I would insert Lamb more and that is one way to do it I guess.  But Lance doesn't have the wheels any more to play right field.  He'll do it on occasion, but for an everyday lineup, I think Scott will have to hit in Lamb's spot more.

I'm ok with tryinig Pence at 2 hole with Scott in RB, Berkman back at 1b and Lamb at 3b- especially against righties.  Just a thought.  No desire to see him hit leadoff and hitting #2 would be experiemental behind the above posted lineup.

Scott may be a good running back, but right now he needs to prove he wasn't a fluke last season.

[DVauthrin]

Not that simple.  From the little I've sen of him there, "serviceable" is the best his defense is going to be,.

He has everett playing next to him.   That will make up for a lot of his deficiencies.   They need the bat more than worrying about loretta's 3b defense right now anyways.

[DVauthrin]

Ensberg pinch hitting sounds like a bad idea.

Ensberg playing everyday is a worse idea.   The starters come before the bench in importance, even though you want to have both be assets.

[Noe]

Not that simple.  From the little I've sen of him there, "serviceable" is the best his defense is going to be,.

You mean like Mike Lamb in 2004 and Aubrey Huff in 2006?  Sometimes, you have to do what you have to do at the corner positions.

[MusicMan]

Again, really small sample size.  But in the couple of games I've seen from Loretta at 3b, his footwork makes me yearn for Lamb, and his arm has me going back to "Bagwell to third" jokes.

[DVauthrin]

You mean like Mike Lamb in 2004 and Aubrey Huff in 2006?  Sometimes, you have to do what you have to do at the corner positions.

This guy named everett, with arguably the best range of any SS in the game, allows you to get away with mediocre to below average 3b defense. 

[Phil_in_CS]

Ensberg pinch hitting sounds like a bad idea.

not if you need a walk....
could also be a defensive replacement too.

[Bench]

What Noe is trying to say here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that if you're going to be satisfactory in the 2-hole, you need to be able to hit the walls and work the middle.

[Noe]

not if you need a walk....
could also be a defensive replacement too.

One thing that has not been discussed yet is Jason Lane's role now that Hunner Pance is in the show.  With Chris Burke in the lineup, Lane was assured of some playing time in center and even an occasional start.  Now with Pence, Lane is seriously looking at getting buried as a right handed pinch hitter late in a game almost exclusively.  Something that MoBerg might cut into as well.  Pence won't come out late in a game nor will he sit for the occasional start by Lane.  But if Scott continues to struggle, then Lane will get some PT.  But then that makes Scott odd man looking in and I just don't think they'll do that to him right now.  He'll get his chance to play his way out of the funk.

Jason Lane is going to really feel the squeeze of PT with this move.  Burke has to hit on occasion, so does Loretta, so Lane is, IMHO, a trade waiting to happen for this team.

[Noe]

What Noe is trying to say here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that if you're going to be satisfactory in the 2-hole, you need to be able to hit the walls and work the middle.

Yes, I think that is what I said but then again, you might be wrong too!

[BudGirl]

He has everett playing next to him.   That will make up for a lot of his deficiencies.   They need the bat more than worrying about loretta's 3b defense right now anyways.

I thought Everett was already helping cover up a lot of Biggio's deficiencies.  He's good, but I don't think he is that great.

[DVauthrin]

I thought Everett was already helping cover up a lot of Biggio's deficiencies.  He's good, but I don't think he is that great.

everett will naturally help the 3b a lot more than 2b as his range to his right will help negate the lack of range from loretta/lamb at 3b.    He helps biggio on DP balls, and anything directly up the middle/a short can of corn to center field.   But a lot more balls will be hit between 3b/ss than 2b/ss.   

[pravata]

everett will naturally help the 3b a lot more than 2b as his range to his right will help negate the lack of range from loretta/lamb at 3b.    He helps biggio on DP balls, and anything directly up the middle/a short can of corn to center field.   But a lot more balls will be hit between 3b/ss than 2b/ss.   

He's also going back further on pops to short left so they can play Lee back.   Early in the season he took a cutoff relay that was usually the 2bs ball.   We should start typing his name EVERETT!.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

He's also going back further on pops to short left so they can play Lee back.   Early in the season he took a cutoff relay that was usually the 2bs ball.   We should start typing his name EVERETT!.

I'd make that MR. EVERETT.

[WulawHorn]

Jason Lane is going to really feel the squeeze of PT with this move.  Burke has to hit on occasion, so does Loretta, so Lane is, IMHO, a trade waiting to happen for this team.
[/quote]

Maybe so, but who on earth is going to give up anything for him. I'd say more likely that he is dfa'd and lost to the waiver process- but who knows.

[DVauthrin]

He's also going back further on pops to short left so they can play Lee back.   Early in the season he took a cutoff relay that was usually the 2bs ball.   We should start typing his name EVERETT!.

Adam would be disappointed he doesn't get more exclamation points than wonderboy.

[pravata]

Again, really small sample size.  But in the couple of games I've seen from Loretta at 3b, his footwork makes me yearn for Lamb, and his arm has me going back to "Bagwell to third" jokes.

Did you note Ensberg's, slide step, slide step, one more, slide step, just so he could get in front of Everett and by now his glove, which he had been holding down the whole time, was out of position.  3bs on the Astros should be restricted to one, and only one, cross over step.  If you can't get it, let it go.

[MusicMan]

Maybe so, but who on earth is going to give up anything for him. I'd say more likely that he is dfa'd and lost to the waiver process- but who knows.

Reds acquired two PTBNL (one of them RHP Marcus McBeth, named on 4/28) and cash from the Athletics for OF-R Chris Denorfia.  (Denorfia is out for the season.)

Braves traded outfielder Ryan Langerhans to the Oakland Athletics for a player to be named or cash considerations.  (Langerhans is sporting a line of .068/.192/.091 this season, and .243/.337/.379 for his career.)

[Noe]

Jason Lane is going to really feel the squeeze of PT with this move.  Burke has to hit on occasion, so does Loretta, so Lane is, IMHO, a trade waiting to happen for this team.


Maybe so, but who on earth is going to give up anything for him. I'd say more likely that he is dfa'd and lost to the waiver process- but who knows.

You're kidding, right?

[WulawHorn]

What can lane fetch- I'm thinking about zero- That's what I meant by who knows.

Wouldn't Lane be about the first choice to leave the 40 man roster?  Who would go before him (if for example the stros had to make room by signing Roger Clemens or something like that?)

[MusicMan]

What can lane fetch- I'm thinking about zero- That's what I meant by who knows.

See the above two transactions.  Lane would bring more than zero.

Wouldn't Lane be about the first choice to leave the 40 man roster?  Who would go before him (if for example the stros had to make room by signing Roger Clemens or something like that?)

Moving Gimenez to the 60-day DL would clear one spot.  Josh Anderson might be the next on the chopping block.

[Jacksonian]

What can lane fetch- I'm thinking about zero- That's what I meant by who knows.

Wouldn't Lane be about the first choice to leave the 40 man roster?  Who would go before him (if for example the stros had to make room by signing Roger Clemens or something like that?)

When is Rick White due back?  Is ALL CAPS the only position player on the 25-man who has options AND wouldn't have to clear waivers to be sent down?  Or do they stick with 11 pitchers?  Have Moehler or Borkowski been any worse than White?  Would Bork have to clear waivers?

[MusicMan]

I'm still unclear as to what function Brian Moehler serves on this team.

[hostros7]

You can't steal first base.  But be that as if may, the argument against Biggio is moot (or mute if you're Limey).   He ain't a'movin out of leadoff anytime soon.  Having said that, if you want a leadoff hitter, his name is Burke, Chris Burke.  If you want to, however, get Mr. Energizer Bunny hitting at the top, that is the best way to keep him from seeing a fastball for the rest of his rookie season.  Pence would have to alter his approach to hitting drastically to make a contribution to this team.  So if he is successful in doing so, you've just taken the potential for good run production and made him a leadoff hitter, whose job certainly is different in terms of approach.  Same with #2.  So people actually like Pence to make such a stupid suggestion, same with Burke hitting #6 in the lineup?

I was being sarcastic....general comment on chron blog baseball acumen

[Matt]

The The Angels Angels of Anaheim might bite on an Ensberg trade.  Depends on if Brandon Wood flops but so far it's too early to tell.  Their other options include Maicer Izturis and Chone Figgins.

[TheWizard]

I'm still unclear as to what function Brian Moehler serves on this team.

Maybe he serves up a mean cup of joe.

[WulawHorn]

OK- maybe there is someone willing to trade for Lane based upon those two transactions mentioned- but then again I thought someone would want Bruntlett but he cleared waivers- I just can't see the market for Lane being intense, or even really existing- but I'm certain that I'm likely to be wrong. Just saying I could see purp trying to trade him and 29 other teams collectively yawning and saying- pass.

Giminez to the 60 makes sense- I had not thought of that.

As to Anderson I thought he was considered a prospect by the team (thus being of more potential value b/c of his elite level speed then Lane would be, if he continues to not hit and the team needs to make a roster decision).

Giminez to the 60 solves all that I suppose.  I would have to think that Moheler is cut loose in favor of White. No way PENCE gets sent down in 10 days, in my mind, when White comes back.

I think you are correct- Pence is the only position guy that can be sent to the minor's without having to clear waivers (unless Q also fits- but A) I don't think, offhand, that he does and B) no way you can go w/o a backup catcher so regardless of his waiver situation he's with the club to stay- absent another backup catcher coming up, which would of course defeat the purpose of sending him down per this discusion).

[pravata]

Maybe he serves up a mean cup of joe.

Moehler came on in a tough spot in that extra inning game and pitched well.

[WulawHorn]

Moehler came on in a tough spot in that extra inning game and pitched well.

Yes he did, but he pitched after Borkowski which further demonstrates his place in Gar's (and presumably the org's) pecking order.

[pravata]

Yes he did, but he pitched after Borkowski which further demonstrates his place in Gar's (and presumably the org's) pecking order.

I thought being that sharp after sitting that long was interesting.  The pitching has done very well.  Whether they need to keep him or not, his value isnt negligible 

[Noe]

I was being sarcastic....general comment on chron blog baseball acumen

Sorry, I should've qualified my statement with the "I know you're being sarcastic, so let me take advantage of your lead-in to say some long-winded stuff....".  I do that you know.

A lot! 

[Noe]

OK- maybe there is someone willing to trade for Lane based upon those two transactions mentioned- but then again I thought someone would want Bruntlett but he cleared waivers- I just can't see the market for Lane being intense, or even really existing- but I'm certain that I'm likely to be wrong. Just saying I could see purp trying to trade him and 29 other teams collectively yawning and saying- pass.

They may say pass if they think the Astros are stupid and would release him for nothing.  But the Astros won't do that.  Pence will head back to the minors if they can't find a trade partner when they need it.  And Lane isn't the only one I'm thinking needs to worry, but he would be the one I would think could attract some GM's attention willing to deal honestly and fairly.

[WulawHorn]

They may say pass if they think the Astros are stupid and would release him for nothing.  But the Astros won't do that.  Pence will head back to the minors if they can't find a trade partner when they need it.  And Lane isn't the only one I'm thinking needs to worry, but he would be the one I would think could attract some GM's attention willing to deal honestly and fairly.

Intersting thought on sending Pence down in favor of Lane- I don't see it going that way but they cut Preston Wilson in favor of keeping Lane (and as a nod to the ingrate who made it a racial thing instead) so you very well might be right.
Moving Giminez to the 60 takes care of the 40 man roster, but you still need a spot on the 25-  I just have a hard time believing that will be Pence, but if he doesn't do well then sure- the problem fixes it self. 

Pravata- agreed re Moheler- he has some value, he's done nothing to disappoint, but he's the guy on the staff who appears to have the least amount of the skips trust, so something has to give one way or another.  Never at all meant to imply he had no value, and he will have more value with being down to 11 pitchers.

[Noe]

Intersting thought on sending Pence down in favor of Lane- I don't see it going that way but they cut Preston Wilson in favor of keeping Lane (and as a nod to the ingrate who made it a racial thing instead) so you very well might be right.
Moving Giminez to the 60 takes care of the 40 man roster, but you still need a spot on the 25-  I just have a hard time believing that will be Pence, but if he doesn't do well then sure- the problem fixes it self.

He has options.  Unless he is hitting ungodly, it's going to be hard to keep him around unless they trade somebody or release a pitcher.  I doubt they'll release a pitcher.

[Fredia]

Were these the same folks that wanted Burke batting 5th?

have to wonder where and if pence would be batting if the line up was made up by committee . (whole astros tream)

[Mr. Happy]

Loretta is the number 2 hitter they need.  Just stick him at 3b, banish ensberg to the bench and be done with it.

I agree. I've seen enough of MoBerg.

[MusicMan]

Under the "try something - ANYTHING" category:

PENCE!!! is hitting in the 2 hole tonight.  Lamb starts at 3b, hitting 5th.

[Alkie]

PENCE!!! is hitting in the 2 hole tonight. 

No.

Lamb starts at 3b, hitting 5th.

Yes.

[MusicMan]

This was according to 610AM, so take the appropriate grain of salt.

[Matt]

Hmmm the lineup I saw said Loretta was at 3rd.

[Noe]

PENCE!!! is hitting in the 2 hole tonight.

Yet another game I didn't see.  I promised my oldest son I'd take his friends and him to an outing, just us guys!

Reading some of the recaps, seems Lohse challenged the kid and he made him pay with that triple.  Biggio getting on is the key for Pence if they're going to hit him second.  A major league pitcher has to come after Pence with Berkman on deck.  If Biggio doesn't get on, it's just going to get tougher for the kid.

Also see where Loretta was moved to #5.  A little strange, but understandable if you're just trying some things out to see how the lineup performs.  I'd rather see Pence at #5, sandwiched between Lee and a better hitting #6 (Lane or Scott).  He can really get some nice challenge pitches if Lee and Scott are hitting well.

Time will tell where he'll settle in.

[Mr. Happy]

The The Angels Angels of Anaheim might bite on an Ensberg trade.  Depends on if Brandon Wood flops but so far it's too early to tell.  Their other options include Maicer Izturis and Chone Figgins.

Figgins just came off of the DL.

[Mr. Happy]

I made the mistake of venturing out of this domain to read up on Astros doings.  One prominent thought out there about Hunter Pence is that Phil Garner should stick him at the top of the lineup to make things happen for this club.  Whaaa?

Does anyone, I mean anyone, just stop and think for a millisecond about what they type or say?  Pence as a leadoff or #2 hitter?  Really, that is what some want Garner to do?  What part of "free swinger" and "minor leaguer with one year in AA and a month in AAA" do they not understand?  That says "top of the lineup" to some?  Oh deer lowered!  Great, lets just make it harder to score runs by putting a free swinging, fastball hitting, rookie out of the minors at the top of the lineup, shall we?  He'll never see a fastball to hit there!  He'll have to hit his way on and major league pitchers are not stupid.

Best way to break a lineup too.

I don't like a free swinging goofball at no. 2. But deer lowered, he is fast round the sacks. I think that he'll eventually hit sixth, working eventually toward fifth. Loretta is not really a no. 5, but he may be our best option unless Scott straightens out. I see Clank getting more PT at 1B, Berkman in RF and Loretta at 3b. We'll also see Scott in RF, Clank at 3B and Berkman at 1B. I see Lane and MoBerg as the odd folks out.

[Matt]

Figgins just came off of the DL.

Figgins can play defense but the Angels are kidding themselves if they think he'll put up good 3rd base type numbers there.

[WulawHorn]

Agreed with almost 100% of this.

Only change is like I said earlier (and NOE just said!) I'd like to see him hit 5th with some protection behind him at #6. Noe said Scott or Lane if they get it going- I'd mentioned Mike Lamb (playing Berkman in rf w/ Lo hitting 2nd at 3b).  I'm ok with 6- I just don't see how he gets much to hit there.

[jaklewein]

Figgins can play defense but the Angels are kidding themselves if they think he'll put up good 3rd base type numbers there.

Which makes you wonder...why does anyone think that Ensberg can, put up 3rd base type numbers, that is?  Any chance at trading Ensberg ended when he came out with the same approach this season as last.

[Gizzmonic]

I don't like a free swinging goofball at no. 2. But deer lowered, he is fast round the sacks. I think that he'll eventually hit sixth, working eventually toward fifth. Loretta is not really a no. 5, but he may be our best option unless Scott straightens out. I see Clank getting more PT at 1B, Berkman in RF and Loretta at 3b. We'll also see Scott in RF, Clank at 3B and Berkman at 1B. I see Lane and MoBerg as the odd folks out.

Pence learned last night that ML pitchers will throw anything on a 3-2 count.  I hope he takes this lesson to heart.

[Matt]

Which makes you wonder...why does anyone think that Ensberg can, put up 3rd base type numbers, that is?  Any chance at trading Ensberg ended when he came out with the same approach this season as last.

His past streaks of power and production could get them hoping for a return to that.  They also like patient batters and people that get on base.  I wouldn't expect much in return except maybe a kiss on the cheek and a wish of good luck but at least he would be gone and my sanity would be partially intact.

[Towlie]

Having Pence in the 2 hole for now is a good move by Garner. He will get more at-bats and wont be counted on to drive in runs in pressure situations. Right now, Pence just needs to get use to the Majors then once they feel hes ready, they'll move him to the 5 hole.

[Noe]

Having Pence in the 2 hole for now is a good move by Garner. He will get more at-bats and wont be counted on to drive in runs in pressure situations. Right now, Pence just needs to get use to the Majors then once they feel hes ready, they'll move him to the 5 hole.

Sounds good, let's see what happens.  I'm all for letting time dictate everything here!  Go Gunther!

[DVauthrin]

Sounds good, let's see what happens.  I'm all for letting time dictate everything here!  Go Gunther!

i'll say this, part of why PENCE!!! was such a fan favorite is the way he plays the game.  he's easy to root for.

[Noe]

i'll say this, part of why PENCE!!! was such a fan favorite is the way he plays the game.  he's easy to root for.

Very true.  It's hard to be someone who notices minor flaws in his game when he looks so cute running with his hair on fire from first to third.  I don't feel like saying anything wrong or bad about a kid like that, so it's better to keep the mouth shut about him.  Nobody in the Astros organization is fooling themselves here when it comes to PENCE!!!, trust me.  They are very level headed about his ability and how he will struggle some this year because of the flaws in his defense and offense.

However, having said that, the pronouncements by media and some fans are fair game.  I think it's time for everyone to just watch for a good long while and enjoy.  Or find out that maybe, just maybe, the messiah label was not fair to tag this kid with at all.

[Towlie]

i'll say this, part of why PENCE!!! was such a fan favorite is the way he plays the game.  he's easy to root for.

I know! He makes me happy because hes so freaking unorthodox and he plays hard but doesnt make stupid decisions on the bases (Luke Scott...pay attention please) but aggressively smart plays.

[Noe]

I know! He makes me happy because hes so freaking unorthodox and he plays hard but doesnt make stupid decisions on the bases (Luke Scott...pay attention please) but aggressively smart plays.

He got picked off last night.

[Lefty]

maybe, just maybe, the messiah label was not fair to tag this kid with at all.

Don't worry, Noe, there will be a new messiah for people to clamor over soon enough.

[pravata]

He got picked off last night.

He also got lucky on Sunday on a hit and run when he hesitated rounding 2nd and was able to get under Jenkins' high throw to 3rd.

[Noe]

Don't worry, Noe, there will be a new messiah for people to clamor over soon enough.

*cough* Troy Patton *cough*  (maybe even after tonight if Wandy allows more than three runs!)

[pravata]

*cough* Troy Patton *cough*  (maybe even after tonight if Wandy allows more than three runs!)

Next in line after Nieve appears to be headed for surgery. (No word yet on the 2nd opinion)

[WulawHorn]

Who's the next position player that has a chance to play at an all star level (as a ceiling for Pence- I'm not expecting it today or tommorrow) for the Astros?

I'm not aware of any.

Is Conrad the next guy that might get serious playing time (if something happens with Burke?)  Anything on the farm other than arms?

[pravata]

Who's the next position player that has a chance to play at an all star level (as a ceiling for Pence- I'm not expecting it today or tommorrow) for the Astros?

I'm not aware of any.

Is Conrad the next guy that might get serious playing time (if something happens with Burke?)  Anything on the farm other than arms?

Here, get on The Bus Ride.  Of course if Charlie Palillo can whip the chimpanzees into a frenzy over Ben Zobrist, no telling who the media can dig up. 

[JimR]

I know! He makes me happy because hes so freaking unorthodox and he plays hard but doesnt make stupid decisions on the bases (Luke Scott...pay attention please) but aggressively smart plays.

such BS

[MusicMan]

Here, get on The Bus Ride.  Of course if Charlie Palillo can whip the chimpanzees into a frenzy over Ben Zobrist, no telling who the media can dig up. 

Who wants to bet he's on Josh Anderson's wagon?

[Towlie]

He got picked off last night.

Pence did? I thought Biggio was the only one who got picked off on the bases. I probably wasnt watching when that happened.

[JimR]

Pence did? I thought Biggio was the only one who got picked off on the bases. I probably wasnt watching when that happened.

you saw it. your eyes lied, though. it could not have been HIM.

[Towlie]

you saw it. your eyes lied, though. it could not have been HIM.

No! its not true!! NOOOO NOOOOO

*melts away*

 

(

[WulawHorn]

Thanks for the link to the site- I am a retard and had never been over there- that was a really nice recap.

So- from reading the recap- is it fair to say that the astros don't have anyone on the horizon to provide significant help from the farm for 3 or so years? (positional players anyway)

[Noe]

Thanks for the link to the site- I am a retard and had never been over there- that was a really nice recap.

So- from reading the recap- is it fair to say that the astros don't have anyone on the horizon to provide significant help from the farm for 3 or so years? (positional players anyway)

Juneberno.  If you're talking strictly of AA and AAA players, many of them won't make you think that they are just an eyelash away from making the big club as a starter... but many of them have a nice enough game to help the club in other ways.  Think Eric Bruntlett, who nobody saw as a contributor to be for the major league club, even as a utility guy.  But when he was brought up, he stuck (and by some accounts, has no business being back down in AAA, but thems the breaks).  So guys like Brooks Conrad, Mike Rodriquez, Josh Anderson, Tommy Manzella, to name a few.  Some of them will fizzle in utility roles, some of them will surprise you how good they are and would make very nice role players in the bigs.

I still believe in the mantra of "grow your own, buy the rest".  It goes something like this: "Grow your own pitching, buy all the sticks you need when you need them".

[WulawHorn]

Juneberno.  If you're talking strictly of AA and AAA players, many of them won't make you think that they are just an eyelash away from making the big club as a starter... but many of them have a nice enough game to help the club in other ways.  Think Eric Bruntlett, who nobody saw as a contributor to be for the major league club, even as a utility guy.  But when he was brought up, he stuck (and by some accounts, has no business being back down in AAA, but thems the breaks).  So guys like Brooks Conrad, Mike Rodriquez, Josh Anderson, Tommy Manzella, to name a few.  Some of them will fizzle in utility roles, some of them will surprise you how good they are and would make very nice role players in the bigs.

I still believe in the mantra of "grow your own, buy the rest".  It goes something like this: "Grow your own pitching, buy all the sticks you need when you need them".

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear- I didn't mean to say that it didn't look like there would be any position callup in 3 years- more like my read was no kind of difference maker- but cheap utility guys are nice to have when construction a roster.

Agree 100% with your last point re- pitching- I'd say it would be nice to always have 6 or 7 guys who you might think would be good pitching, b/c with the nature of injuries and the vagaries of pitching prospects becoming pitching suspects that seems like it should yield 2 or 3 useful guys.  And free agency sticks are safer (imo) than arms- most of the guys that get the big money to swing the lumber do so successfully- too many of the arms end up on the scrap heap- with nothing but a bloated payroll to show for it.

[JimR]

Juneberno.  If you're talking strictly of AA and AAA players, many of them won't make you think that they are just an eyelash away from making the big club as a starter... but many of them have a nice enough game to help the club in other ways.  Think Eric Bruntlett, who nobody saw as a contributor to be for the major league club, even as a utility guy.  But when he was brought up, he stuck (and by some accounts, has no business being back down in AAA, but thems the breaks).  So guys like Brooks Conrad, Mike Rodriquez, Josh Anderson, Tommy Manzella, to name a few.  Some of them will fizzle in utility roles, some of them will surprise you how good they are and would make very nice role players in the bigs.

I still believe in the mantra of "grow your own, buy the rest".  It goes something like this: "Grow your own pitching, buy all the sticks you need when you need them".

Cody Ransom can play.

[Noe]

I remember Tom McCraw saying he felt that young hitters, unless they are phenoms like Pujols, will always have ups and downs trying to figure out how to hit a major leaguer.  In his estimation, he felt that the age of 29-30 is usually when you find a hitter who has had some time in the majors make his break and settle into what type of hitter he'll be in the majors.  Usually, if you know that a guy was a good hitter in the minors, struggled for a bit at the major league level and then is available, if he is around the age of 30, he's probably a good bet to have a break out season or two hitting a baseball.

I'm not entirely sure I agree, but that was Tom McCraw's philosophy on major league hitters and one he said fits well with guys like Carl Everett who had bounced around for several years with the Yankees and Mets before he came to Houston and had his breakout season in 1999.

[WulawHorn]

I remember Tom McCraw saying he felt that young hitters, unless they are phenoms like Pujols, will always have ups and downs trying to figure out how to hit a major leaguer.  In his estimation, he felt that the age of 29-30 is usually when you find a hitter who has had some time in the majors make his break and settle into what type of hitter he'll be in the majors.  Usually, if you know that a guy was a good hitter in the minors, struggled for a bit at the major league level and then is available, if he is around the age of 30, he's probably a good bet to have a break out season or two hitting a baseball.

I'm not entirely sure I agree, but that was Tom McCraw's philosophy on major league hitters and one he said fits well with guys like Carl Everett who had bounced around for several years with the Yankees and Mets before he came to Houston and had his breakout season in 1999.

Good philosophy for how to ID bargain basement guys.

On the other end of the spectrum, you know the big money guys like Beltran, Lee, Pujols, Berkman et al are going to hit and hit for a long time till they break down.  Big money pitchers- not as much of a sure bet to know what you are getting.

[Noe]

Cody Ransom can play.

Yup.  He's got that grinder attitude that fits well with Conrad.  And I've been impressed how he's gotten a little stronger since the days he was a skinny kid in the Jints organization.  He can definitely help the Astros if they need a guy who hustles, plays a really good third base and can hit in the lower half of the lineup quite well.

[Noe]

Good philosophy for how to ID bargain basement guys.

On the other end of the spectrum, you know the big money guys like Beltran, Lee, Pujols, Berkman et al are going to hit and hit for a long time till they break down.  Big money pitchers- not as much of a sure bet to know what you are getting.

Eggszactly.   "Grow your own..." is a very good philosophy for a major league organization.

[Froback]

Who wants to bet he's on Josh Anderson's wagon?

When he was first drafted I was super hyped about what he "could" be.  Now, I am resigned to what he "is".  Why is it guys with tons of speed always seem to suck at taking walks?  I mean if you batted .360 like Ichiro used to, ok, but .280 types need to learn the value of a walk.

[Lefty]

"Grow your own..." is a very good philosophy for a major league organization.

It's a good philosophy for a lot of things.