OK, I'll ask it....

[utastro]

What now for Lidge?  Should he be given more time to work out his problems?  That was way too scary.  On the other hand, Biggio is the man.  13 years since his last GS.  Great D in the 8th too.   It looks like AE is rubbing off on him (as opposed to rubbing him off, NTTAWWT).

[Reuben]

What now for Lidge?  Should he be given more time to work out his problems?  That was way too scary.  On the other hand, Biggio is the man.  13 years since his last GS.  Great D in the 8th too.   It looks like AE is rubbing off on him (as opposed to rubbing him off, NTTAWWT).

an MRI?

[utastro]

an MRI?

Or a new identity.  I hear the name Eny Cabreja is available.

[Alkie]

Is there anyone that has heard/read anything post-game regarding Lidge yet?

[Reuben]

Is there anyone that has heard/read anything post-game regarding Lidge yet?

I heard he's using White's bottle of Head n' Shoulders.

[utastro]

I heard he's using White's bottle of Head n' Shoulders.

Maybe he should shave his head, ala Brittney Spears. You know, get the bad stuff out.

[Lurch]

Is there anyone that has heard/read anything post-game regarding Lidge yet?

20 mins of post game from FSN... nothing

[ybbodeus]

Maybe he should shave his head, ala Brittney Spears. You know, get the bad stuff out.

Get him some glasses like Charlie Sheen's.....or the Hansens (like Eddie Shore!).

[utastro]

20 mins of post game from FSN... nothing

I think their all too shell shocked.  BBTN will only be about A-Rods big rod so I don't think we'll get any useful info their.  Stay tuned to astros.com, maybe footer will give us some info.

[mihoba]

20 mins of post game from FSN... nothing

Glenn Wilson said he hasn't been the same since Pujols.

[ybbodeus]

Glenn Wilson said he hasn't been the same since Pujols.

WOW!  Where does one GO to get such insight?

[utastro]

Glenn Wilson said he hasn't been the same since Pujols.

I thought I heard, he now isn't the same since Fielder.

[JaneDoe]

Glenn Wilson said he hasn't been the same since Pujols.

Wow.  He is fuckin' genius.  I never thought of that.

[Limey]

What now for Lidge?  Should he be given more time to work out his problems?  That was way too scary.  On the other hand, Biggio is the man.  13 years since his last GS.  Great D in the 8th too.   It looks like AE is rubbing off on him (as opposed to rubbing him off, NTTAWWT).

He's been getting rough treatment from the home fans lately.  If that effort had been at home, MMPUS would've been louder than during the 2004 shellacking of the Jakes, but for the entirely opposite reason.  I'm not sure Gar can risk pitching him at home because it's no good to anyone to have the whole home crowd on your case.

Nice slam Bidge!  Turns out all the insurance runs were needed!

[utastro]

I'm not sure Gar can risk pitching him at home because it's no good to anyone to have the whole home crowd on your case.

Can Lidge be used at home without starting a riot now?

[Noe]

Tonight, Brad Lidge was just awful.  There is no other way to explain it, he was bad.  But that is the first time this year I've seen him just go out there with nothing.  Tony Gwynn Jr. is not someone for him to pitch corners to, so I doubt he was trying to do that.  So he just could not control either the fastball nor the slider.

The pitch to Fielder was a do nothing backup slider after a very good slider previous to that.  It's puzzling tonight, because he didn't have anything redeeming about his performance.  But like I said, I have not seen him that bad in a very long time.  I didn't watch the game versus the Cardinals this year, but all I heard about that outing was that he wasn't that bad.

So tonight is one that he can't take anything from other than to say "I stunk" and move on.  It's over and now move on.

[utastro]

So tonight is one that he can't take anything from other than to say "I stunk" and move on.  It's over and now move on.

I don't think the media and the fans will move on from this one so easily especially since he already lost his closer's job.  But this does make Garner look like a genius for pulling the plug on Lidge so early in the season.

[Noe]

I don't think the media and the fans will move on from this one especially since he already lost his closer's job.  But this does make Garner look like a genius for pulling the plug on Lidge so early in the season.

Like I care what media and fans think.  But then again, Drayton McLane does.  Smells like Jay Powell gettting run out of town all over again.  Nice baseball fans here in Houston if that happens.  Lidge had a bad night, no sugar coating.  But if every player gets run out of town because of one bad night, then Lance Berkman better worry.

Seriously.

[matadorph]

Noe, cmon man. One bad night?

[homer]

But if every player gets run out of town because of one bad night...

One? Are you serious?

[chuck]

Noe must have eaten some peyote-laced tacos or something because Lidge's slider hasn't looked like Lidge's slider since 2004. And Lidge hasn't had ANY control of anything this year reaching back to some point last year.

[utastro]

Like I care what media and fans think.  But then again, Drayton McLane does.  Smells like Jay Powell gettting run out of town all over again.  Nice baseball fans here in Houston if that happens.  Lidge had a bad night, no sugar coating.  But if every player gets run out of town because of one bad night, then Lance Berkman better worry.

Seriously.

Lidge getting run is a real possibility.  We may not like it, but I'm guessing that uncle Drayton and the rest of the Astros brass won't be able to escape the Lidge backlash. He is not helping his cause.

[Fredia]

One? Are you serious?

how many bad nights .. let me count the ways

[Noe]

One? Are you serious?

Yes.

[Noe]

Oh come on!  One bad night means he had absolutely nothing tonight.  Nothing, nada, zip, zilch.  Up and down his entire performance, he was bad.

I stand by what I said, tonight, his bad night, he stunk.  But so far this season (and I didn't see his Cardinal game), he hasn't looked awful the *entire* outing.  He usually shows something to have hope he was just needing work.

Tonight, either because he just had nothing going up to the mound or because he had the yips, don't know, he just didn't show one darn thing worth saying he could take something away from it.  So yes, one bad night.

[ybbodeus]

I gotta get another Tecate.  My head's STILL hurting from screaming at the television in the 9th....both halves of it.  The screaming in the first half was far more positive, I assure you.

How many Tecates you figure a guy can have with Vicatin in him...without dying and shit?  Had a cyst removed from my wrist today....repetitive motion issues, which I would PREFER to report as computer/mouse/typing related versus any OTHER motions that might come to mind.

[matadorph]

Noe, what do you think Garner should do now? Shorten Lidge's leash even more or give him the space to clean up his own messes? I'm usually not one to second-guess Garner, but I don't understand the decision to let him pitch to Fielder and Estrada after allowing two walks.  I think he should've yanked him before Cecil Jr stepped out of the on-deck circle.

[utastro]

Oh come on!  One bad night means he had absolutely nothing tonight.  Nothing, nada, zip, zilch.  Up and down his entire performance, he was bad.

I stand by what I said, tonight, his bad night, he stunk.  But so far this season (and I didn't see his Cardinal game), he hasn't looked awful the *entire* outing.  He usually shows something to have hope he was just needing work.

Tonight, either because he just had nothing going up to the mound or because he had the yips, don't know, he just didn't show one darn thing worth saying he could take something away from it.  So yes, one bad night.

So what role should Lidge play?  Hi priced middle reliever?  Because a closer has to do more than just have a good night throwing pitches, he has to be dominant.  Lidge is anything but dominant even when he is throwing good pitches.  He threw a great pitch to Nady but Nady still beat him.

[Noe]

Noe must have eaten some peyote-laced tacos or something because Lidge's slider hasn't looked like Lidge's slider since 2004. And Lidge hasn't had ANY control of anything this year reaching back to some point last year.

You're overreacting or being dissengenous, or both.  Either way, Lidge has had so-so outings, some good outings, and *NOW* the one just awful outing.  Roy Oswalt stunk in Philly, so I guess because he is able to come back and perform in high form other nights, he's allowed.

Actually, same with Berkman.

But Lidge is not allowed because he has to either perform like a dominant closer or nothing, no in-between.  I know it was frustrating tonight to watch him take the hill with nada, I've seen it before by great pitchers.  The problem is that Lidge isn't going to get a "get out of jail" card from fans and media because he's on death watch by them.  So he's not allowed to be human and stink like Oswalt did in Philly.

And that is just the way it is.  But don't give me this crap about Lidge being bad or having this sort of outing every time out because it would be just not true.

[JaneDoe]

I gotta get another Tecate.  My head's STILL hurting from screaming at the television in the 9th....both halves of it.  The screaming in the first half was far more positive, I assure you.

How many Tecates you figure a guy can have with Vicatin in him...without dying and shit?  Had a cyst removed from my wrist today....repetitive motion issues, which I would PREFER to report as computer/mouse/typing related versus any OTHER motions that might come to mind.

If you're talking Vicodin not Vicatin, stop the drinking immediately.  Thank you.

Acetaminophen should also be avoided so as to decrease chances of destroying the liver. In addition, alcohol increases the drowsiness already caused by Vicodin and may result in unconsciousness or, in a severe case, death. Alcohol in moderate to high doses can also cause liver failure if taken with Vicodin due to the acetaminophen.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicodin

Possible food and drug interactions when taking Vicodin
Hydrocodone slows the nervous system. Alcohol can intensify this effect.
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/rxdrugprofiles/drugs/vic1480.shtml

[Noe]

So what role should Lidge play?

Pitcher who gets folks out.

Hi priced middle reliever?

That's not what they're trying to do.

Because a closer has to do more than just have a good night throwing pitches, he has to be dominant.

You better re-think this one.  "Dominant" is the real issue with fans.  They wouldn't know what to do with a Dave Smith today if he came back to pitch and effectively close out games.  Dominance has nothing do with it.  But that is the measure that Lidge must obtain or else he stinks in the eyes of fans.

Lidge is anything but dominant even when he is throwing good pitches.  He threw a great pitch to Nady but Nady still beat him.

This is silly.

[Noe]

Noe, what do you think Garner should do now?

Not overreact, that's for sure.  He's not a fan, he's a manager.

Shorten Lidge's leash even more or give him the space to clean up his own messes?

Stay the course.  One bad night does not derail what he's trying to do.  Lidge forgot about it soon as it was over.  If he does it again several more times, then it's time to check him out for medical problems because there is no reason to take the mound as a reliever if you cannot throw strikes effectively.  If they beat you, they beat you.  No problem with that.  But the problem tonight was getting on the hill with nothing and absolutely creating the situation to get beat.  That's not acceptable and if it was because his arm was barking, then Garner should talk to Lidge later and ask him straight out... "are you okay?".  He did the same thing to Lance Berkman in Cincy.  When I saw Lance swing right through three fastballs down the middle of the plate against the Philly reliever on Saturday, I said to myself "is his knee barking because he had absolutely no legs on that swing and looked awful!  Lance Berkman doesn't miss three fastballs down the middle of the plate".  The way Lidge looked tonight, he better hope it's just a slight setback and he needs to keep working.  Because if it's not, then he's hurt somehow and he'll need to get his arm checked.  He was throwing like a man who was shortarming and aiming his pitches.

I'm usually not one to second-guess Garner, but I don't understand the decision to let him pitch to Fielder and Estrada after allowing two walks.  I think he should've yanked him before Cecil Jr stepped out of the on-deck circle.

Four run lead.

[utastro]

This is silly.

So is the argument you keep throwing out about Berkman and Oswalt.

Pitcher who gets folks out.

Overly simplistic but you did answer the question.  I think he is supposed to do more than get folks out, he is supposed to close games.  We know how the Astros organization feels about that one.

I'm guessing I'm not going to be the only one who is overly concerned about Lidge's role and future on this team.  Tonights near fiasco just added more fuel to the fire.

[matadorph]

He hasn't had one inning where he didn't allow a hit or a walk. That's not a good sign.

[chuck]

You're overreacting or being dissengenous, or both.

No I'm not. I'm saying that the wicked slider with the sharp downward break is what led to Lidge's prominence, and he has not had any semblance of that pitch since 2004. His slider in 2005 looked totally different from his slider in 2004. You know this as well as I do. I think an injury is what accounts for the difference. You do, too. I've seen you post to this effect many times. If anyone is being disingenuous, my friend, it's you.

[Noe]

So is the argument you keep throwing out about Berkman and Oswalt.

It has context: Berkman, Oswalt and Lidge have been high caliber performers for the Houston Astros in the past.  Of the three, only Lidge has fallen from high caliber to slightly above average.  He's not allowed to be slightly above average, he must be high caliber or else ship him out.  So Garner is trying to get him back to high caliber but fans don't want to see it get done, they are tired of Lidge for some reason.  Perhaps because he isn't a consistent performer any more, like Oswalt and Berkman.  But Oswalt had a bad night, Lance said "I stink" when asked why he was struggling.  But they get a pass.

Lidge does not.  One bad outing and it's over.  No more chances, stop the madness, don't let him take the mound ever again.  He's done.

Overly simplistic but you did answer the question.  I think he is supposed to do more than get folks out,

Ahum, no, he's supposed to get folks out before they score more than the Astros have.  That is the job of all pitchers, be he a starter, reliever or closer.  Starters get a little more leeway though (see: Williams, Woody).

he is supposed to close games.

Currently, he supposed to work on simplifying his game and getting consistent with throwing strikes while getting folks out.  I don't know what else to tell you if you're not paying attention to what the Astros have asked Lidge to do, but that is his role right now in order to get back to closing again.  He won't until he gets the mechanics down and consistency back.

We know how the Astros organization feels about that one.

I don't know what this means.

I'm guessing I'm not going to be the only one who is overly concerned about Lidge's role and future on this team.  Tonights near fiasco just added more fuel to the fire.

I bet it doesn't even register and you'll be upset about it too.

[Noe]

He hasn't had one inning where he didn't allow a hit or a walk. That's not a good sign.

That why you go to work to get better.  Tonight, he stunk.  Move on, the night is over.

[Noe]

No I'm not. I'm saying that the wicked slider with the sharp downward break is what led to Lidge's prominence,

Again, the expectation is either he becomes a "prominent" closer again or he's a bust.  Nothing in-between.

and he has not had any semblance of that pitch since 2004. His slider in 2005 looked totally different from his slider in 2004.

That does not mean he's been bad every night he took the hill since 2004.  Which is what I said and your countered.  Tonight, he stunk, meaning he had nothing.  He was bad.  You and others questioned me as to my seriousness and I replied in the affrimative.  You even claimed I was on peyote, which of course I'm not.  I'm merely telling you the truth, not some hyberbolic rant about his utterly lousy performance tonight.  It was awful.  BTW - so was Oswalt on Friday and Berkman has stunk for two weeks now.  So if I said on Friday last week the same thing I said about Lidge tonight about Oswalt, you wouldn't even disagree wtih me.

You know this as well as I do. I think an injury is what accounts for the difference. You do, too. I've seen you post to this effect many times.

I suspect injury, I don't know anything.  And neither do you.

If anyone is being disingenuous, my friend, it's you.

See my answers above, I stand by what I said.  Lidge had one bad night tonight.  He had nothing.  His other outing this year have been either okay or pretty good, even the two blown saves.  Pitchers get beat on good nights, even if nobody wants to accept it.  That is *NOT* a bad night, that is a good night with bad results (see: Nady, Xavier).  However tonight, he was just plain butt ugly bad and he'll be the first to tell you so.

Oh, and the Astros won.

[chuck]

Again, the expectation is either he becomes a "prominent" closer again or he's a bust.  Nothing in-between.

I did not suggest nor set these parameters and I don't care for the implication that I did. I want Lidge to be an effective reliever. It does not matter to me where in the game he pitches, nor does it matter to me in the slightest how much money he makes.

Lidge has no control over any of his pitches right now. He is spectacularly unsuccessful on the mound due largely to a lack of control. This has been the case for a considerable amount of time. You wish to pretend that it is not so. I understand that you enjoy the role of the verbose contrarian around here, and I generally enjoy your embracing that role, too, but this 'it's only one bad night' bit is an awfully Quixotic position for you to assume.

You even claimed I was on peyote, which of course I'm not.

I claimed this, did I? You are in possession of a German sense of humor.

[Savage]

It has context: Berkman, Oswalt and Lidge have been high caliber performers for the Houston Astros in the past.  Of the three, only Lidge has fallen from high caliber to slightly above average.  He's not allowed to be slightly above average, he must be high caliber or else ship him out. 

Raise your hand if you think this is slightly above average:
SEASON  TEAM            W  L  ERA  G  GS  CG  SHO  SV  SVO  IP     H   R   ER   HR  HBP  BB  SO
2006     Houston Astros 1  5   5.28 78 0    0    0     32    38   75.0 69  47  44   10   6     36 104
2007     Houston Astros 1  0  5.79  6  0    0    0      0     1    4.2     9   6    3     1    1      5    3

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/player_locator_results.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerLocator=lidge

[Noe]

I did not suggest nor set these parameters and I don't care for the implication that I did.

You said prominence, not I.  You said he hasn't been that since 2004, not I.

I want Lidge to be an effective reliever. It does not matter to me where in the game he pitches, nor does it matter to me in the slightest how much money he makes.

We agree.  Tonight though, he stunk.  One. Bad. Night. (Not peyote induced).

Lidge has no control over any of his pitches right now.

Tonight, yes, he was awful.  Last night, no, he was pretty darn consistent and darn good.  He was, last night, what you said above you want him to be.

He is spectacularly unsuccessful on the mound due largely to a lack of control. This has been the case for a considerable amount of time.

Yes, from one night to the next.  That is considerable.

You wish to pretend that it is not so.

Actually, I think I said he stunk tonight.  So no pretending here.

I understand that you enjoy the role of the verbose contrarian around here, and I generally enjoy your embracing that role, too, but this 'it's only one bad night' bit is an awfully Quixotic position for you to assume.

Because you don't understand the context of "bad night".  I differ in that opinion, and it is not worthy of peyote smack either.  Your tolerance for "bad night" is perhaps nothing short of brilliant?  Or is it what you said above?  If the latter, then last night, he met your expectation.  So the difference between tonight and last night is then "one bad night".

I claimed this, did I? You are in possession of a German sense of humor.

Danke!

[utastro]

It has context: Berkman, Oswalt and Lidge have been high caliber performers for the Houston Astros in the past.  Of the three, only Lidge has fallen from high caliber to slightly above average.  He's not allowed to be slightly above average, he must be high caliber or else ship him out.  ... Oswalt had a bad night, Lance said "I stink" when asked why he was struggling.  But they get a pass.

This argument is barely acceptable.  Lidge had (had as in past tense) one job, to close out games and preserve the win.  He failed consistently and was removed from his job.  The leash cannot and should not be as long for a closer as it is for a starting pitcher and position player.  I don't want to see Lidge shipped out.  I want him to do his job and get folks out.

Currently, he supposed to work on simplifying his game and getting consistent with throwing strikes while getting folks out.  I don't know what else to tell you if you're not paying attention to what the Astros have asked Lidge to do, but that is his role right now in order to get back to closing again.  He won't until he gets the mechanics down and consistency back.

Exactly, get back to being the closer.  Which I equate to his role on this team is to be the closer.  He is not the closer right now but that is supposed to be his role.

I don't know what this means.

He's not the closer any more.

I bet it doesn't even register and you'll be upset about it too.

If it doesn't register, I'll be perfectly happy.

[ybbodeus]

If you're talking Vicodin not Vicatin, stop the drinking immediately.  Thank you.

Acetaminophen should also be avoided so as to decrease chances of destroying the liver. In addition, alcohol increases the drowsiness already caused by Vicodin and may result in unconsciousness or, in a severe case, death. Alcohol in moderate to high doses can also cause liver failure if taken with Vicodin due to the acetaminophen.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicodin

Possible food and drug interactions when taking Vicodin
Hydrocodone slows the nervous system. Alcohol can intensify this effect.
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/rxdrugprofiles/drugs/vic1480.shtml

I took the vicodin at 4 (thank you on the spelling).  Had a post game Tecate at 10:30 and another at 11:30 or so.  However,  I shall cease the beer intake and wait until morning to CONSIDER another vicodin.  It's a derivative, so I didn't know the spelling, not being one who takes much medication.

[Noe]

Raise your hand if you think this is slightly above average:
SEASON  TEAM            W  L  ERA  G  GS  CG  SHO  SV  SVO  IP     H   R   ER   HR  HBP  BB  SO
2006     Houston Astros 1  5   5.28 78 0    0    0     32    38   75.0 69  47  44   10   6     36 104
2007     Houston Astros 1  0  5.79  6  0    0    0      0     1    4.2     9   6    3     1    1      5    3

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/player_locator_results.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerLocator=lidge

ERA means nothing for a reliever and 32 saves is pretty darn slightly above average.  Look, if you don't like Brad Lidge and want him gone, fine.  All of you are entitled to that opinion.  In fact, go with it.  It's okay with me.

Just don't think I've some how lost my own mind when I see things just differently than you do.

[MRaup]

Man, I can't believe the Stros lost tonight.

What a bummer.

[Twoniner]

Lidge does not.  One bad outing and it's over.

One Outing....or a season plus.... same difference, I suppose.   If Berkman hit say .220 with 10 home runs all of last season and was continually put back into the 3 hole after every 2 for 3 game,  and then put back into  the 3 hole at the beginning of this season after a brutal spring training,  and had his bad start,  you would have the same situation.   As it stands now, you are comparing apples to spaceships.   I do think we need to keep Lidge and let him get his stuff together.   If he is a freaking headcase though, screw this rush to get him back in the late inning one run situations.   He is valuable pitching well in the 6th and 7th even if that is all he can do for now.    If he becomes an all out badass for an extended period of time, then push him back towards 8th inning one run game or save situations if you want.   The fact remains that he has sucked absolute balls at closing for over a year now.  You shouldn't  push it on him because he is making a closer's salary.

[mihoba]

Again, the expectation is either he becomes a "prominent" closer again or he's a bust.  Nothing in-between.

Noe, Lidge is not even an effective mop up man right now. He has been terribly inconsistent for a long, long time.

That being said, the problem I have tonight is with Garner. After two walks, the second of which he threw a fastball three freakin' feet outside for a wild pitch, and no mound visit. The tying run was now in the on-deck circle. No stall tactics, nothing.

It was apparent to me after two batters that Lidge had nothing. Can Garner not see that from the dugout? Stubborn is an understatement for leaving him in that long, in my opinion.

Astros did indeed win, but all is not good if Skipper still has confidence in Lidge after that outing, in my opinion of course.

[Noe]

This argument is barely acceptable.

Because it's Brad Lidge.  Which is my point.  Oswalt and Berkman wouldn't be given the same grief for a bad night because they do well to bounce back and perform well.  Lidge has not done so, so when he has a bad night (which human are prone to do, these are not robots mind you), then he's going to get his arse handed to him by fans.  I'd rather just deal with the fact he stunk tonight and move on.

Lidge had (had as in past tense) one job, to close out games and preserve the win.  He failed consistently and was removed from his job.  The leash cannot and should not be as long for a closer as it is for a starting pitcher and position player.  I don't want to see Lidge shipped out.  I want him to do his job and get folks out.

I really have to ask you if you're paying attention to what Garner is doing because he is effectively trying to allow him to work his way back to where you want him to be.  One bad night should not derail that, should it?  Or is he (Lidge) just not allowed to have a bad night because he just isn't Oswalt or Berkman status as a player?  Serious question here.

Exactly, get back to being the closer.  Which I equate to his role on this team is to be the closer.  He is not the closer right now but that is supposed to be his role.
He's not the closer any more.
If it doesn't register, I'll be perfectly happy.

Then move on.  One bad night doesn't change things, only allows for some steam to be let out by fans.

[ybbodeus]

Best thing Lidge has going for him, besides the fact that the team held together to secure the win, is that Rivera blew HIS save opportunity tonight.....again.  The national press won't notice Lidge's failures, because it will be focused on the game's premier man's struggles this year.  No, only the Pinwheel Press will be on the topic of Lidge....minus ESPN's Baseball As We See It Tonight.

[Savage]

ERA means nothing for a reliever and 32 saves is pretty darn slightly above average.  Look, if you don't like Brad Lidge and want him gone, fine.  All of you are entitled to that opinion.  In fact, go with it.  It's okay with me.

Just don't think I've some how lost my own mind when I see things just differently than you do.

You're right.  it's not just about era.  it's about the fact that he's allowed more runs, hits and walks this year than innings pitched.  That's not just one bad night and that's not above average.  I'd love nothing more than for brad lidge to wake up with his wicked slider that makes grown men look silly.  But i'm long past denying that he doesn't have that.  I don't think it has anything to do with trusting his stuff, i think for whatever he reason he clearly doesn't HAVE his stuff.  And there's not much point in trotting him out there to further prove that point when there are clearly better options in the bullpen that are a better help to the team.  figure out what' wrong and fix it or move on.  But this bs plan of "building his confidence" isn't helping him or the team.

[Noe]

Man, I can't believe the Stros lost tonight.

What a bummer.

Yeah, who said that they wanted "exciting games"?  You sometimes get what you wish for in baseball!

[utastro]

Noe, Lidge is not even an effective mop up man right now. He has been terribly inconsistent for a long, long time.

That being said, the problem I have tonight is with Garner. After two walks, the second of which he threw a fastball three freakin' feet outside for a wild pitch, and no mound visit. The tying run was now in the on-deck circle. No stall tactics, nothing.

It was apparent to me after two batters that Lidge had nothing. Can Garner not see that from the dugout? Stubborn is an understatement for leaving him in that long, in my opinion.

Astros did indeed win, but all is not good if Skipper still has confidence in Lidge after that outing, in my opinion of course.

I think Garner was testing Lidge to see how he would respond to adversity.  He failed.

[Noe]

One Outing....or a season plus.... same difference, I suppose.   If Berkman hit say .220 with 10 home runs all of last season and was continually put back into the 3 hole after every 2 for 3 game,  and then put back into  the 3 hole at the beginning of this season after a brutal spring training,  and had his bad start,  you would have the same situation.   As it stands now, you are comparing apples to spaceships.   I do think we need to keep Lidge and let him get his stuff together.   If he is a freaking headcase though, screw this rush to get him back in the late inning one run situations.   He is valuable pitching well in the 6th and 7th even if that is all he can do for now.    If he becomes an all out badass for an extended period of time, then push him back towards 8th inning one run game or save situations if you want.   The fact remains that he has sucked absolute balls at closing for over a year now.  You shouldn't  push it on him because he is making a closer's salary.

This "one bad season" stuff... how does that work with Mark Buerhle?

[Noe]

Noe, Lidge is not even an effective mop up man right now. He has been terribly inconsistent for a long, long time.

And to make him consistent again, the perscription is work.  That is what they're trying to do so everyone can be satisfied, including me that consistency can be had.  So what I think I"m hearing is that Lidge is not allowed to work on getting consistent again, he must come out of the box consistent or he must be shipped?  I don't think it works that way.

But what I said was that tonight he stunk!  One. Bad. Night.  I get jumped as if I said something that went against the sacrosant opinion that Lidge has always been bad! And that is simply not true.

That being said, the problem I have tonight is with Garner. After two walks, the second of which he threw a fastball three freakin' feet outside for a wild pitch, and no mound visit. The tying run was now in the on-deck circle. No stall tactics, nothing.

That was gut managing 101 for sure.  He probably took several things into consideration to go ahead and allow Lidge to pitch to Fielder:

1. He just struck out Hardy (who hit a single, a homerun and a line out previously). Perhaps, he thought Lidge was getting his act together.
2. Cecil Fielder is a candidate for a double play because he does not run fast.  So there was some odds in Garner's favor.
3. Four run lead.
4. It's April, not September.

We've always said in here that to rate a manager decision, rate the thought process not the outcome.  So in a sense, Garner had his gut feeling in line with the right thinking.  Lidge just hung a bad pitch to Fielder and that was that. I then fully expected Lidge to come out, but Garner went ahead and allowed him to work his way out.  Brave man or foolish, it's his decision to make.  He did get Hall with a nice inside pitch, but then inexpecably left one in the middle of the plate to Estrada.

It was apparent to me after two batters that Lidge had nothing. Can Garner not see that from the dugout? Stubborn is an understatement for leaving him in that long, in my opinion.

I thought Lidge was overthrowing and then aiming his pitches to Gwynn and Weeks. The umpire was bad behind the plate tonight.  He struck out Scott on an awful pitch and then Lamb on an even worse one.  But overall, the first two batters were horrible ABs for Lidge.  He stunk.

Astros did indeed win, but all is not good if Skipper still has confidence in Lidge after that outing, in my opinion of course.

If this were the third or fourth time Lidge did this, I'd agree.  But last night Lidge was nails.  So one bad night after one good night does not a lack of confidence make.  What happened was Lidge was horrid tonight and hopefully he'll get back on track and keep working to become consistent again.

[Noe]

Best thing Lidge has going for him, besides the fact that the team held together to secure the win, is that Rivera blew HIS save opportunity tonight.....again.  The national press won't notice Lidge's failures, because it will be focused on the game's premier man's struggles this year.  No, only the Pinwheel Press will be on the topic of Lidge....minus ESPN's Baseball As We See It Tonight.

Screw the national press.  They only know "Albert Pujols messed Lidge up" any way.  They all of sudden should not be given credibility.

[utastro]

Because it's Brad Lidge.  Which is my point.  Oswalt and Berkman wouldn't be given the same grief for a bad night because they do well to bounce back and perform well.  Lidge has not done so, so when he has a bad night (which human are prone to do, these are not robots mind you), then he's going to get his arse handed to him by fans.  I'd rather just deal with the fact he stunk tonight and move on.

Again, I'll go back to my argument about the leash being shorter (much shorter) for a closer or ex closer as in Lidge's case vs. starting pitcher and position player.  Oswalt and or Berkman having a bad night does not necessarily cost the Astros a win.  Lidge in the closer's role having a bad night, will almost always cost the Astros a win.  Lidge having a bad night as a non closer (like tonight) almost cost the Astros the win.  The argument that Twoniner made about Berkman having a bad year is a better argument.  Not the one night argument you keep arguing

I really have to ask you if you're paying attention to what Garner is doing because he is effectively trying to allow him to work his way back to where you want him to be.  One bad night should not derail that, should it?  Or is he (Lidge) just not allowed to have a bad night because he just isn't Oswalt or Berkman status as a player?  Serious question here.

I realize what Garner is doing but Lidge did not help his cause tonight.  Should tonight derail his comeback opportunity?  I honestly hope it does not.  But that is why I started this thread.  To get feedback from the other zone dwellers as to what they think.

Then move on.  One bad night doesn't change things, only allows for some steam to be let out by fans.

My steam is gone.  Moving on.

[Noe]

You're right.  it's not just about era.

Thanks.

it's about the fact that he's allowed more runs, hits and walks this year than innings pitched.

The concept of "working his way back" seems somewhat loss to folks.  If he is "working" it means he isn't there YET!  So forget the numbers for now.  Watch him pitch for a while.

That's not just one bad night and that's not above average.  I'd love nothing more than for brad lidge to wake up with his wicked slider that makes grown men look silly.  But i'm long past denying that he doesn't have that.  I don't think it has anything to do with trusting his stuff, i think for whatever he reason he clearly doesn't HAVE his stuff.  And there's not much point in trotting him out there to further prove that point when there are clearly better options in the bullpen that are a better help to the team.  figure out what' wrong and fix it or move on.  But this bs plan of "building his confidence" isn't helping him or the team.

I invite you to watch the games to understand what I said when I said he stunk tonight but has not given me reason to believe that tonight was the norm.  Tonight was horrid, but he's hardly been horrid so far.  I will say this again for you all:  You can have a good outing and have bad results from it (see: Nady, Xavier).  His stat line will look bad, but he actually threw well.  So why do I care about stats right now?  I don't.  I can see what I need to see to say what I did.  In fact, I said that. So far this year, I haven't seen him have a really bad outing until tonight.

[Noe]

I think Garner was testing Lidge to see how he would respond to adversity.  He failed.

You forgot "tonight" in your sentence (and the very thing I've been saying too!)

[Noe]

Oswalt and or Berkman having a bad night does not necessarily cost the Astros a win.

Wanna bet.  Where were you when the Astros were 1-5 and deemed the worse team in the majors by the fans.  And the fault was being laid on the offense.  Especially Lance Berkman.

Ironically, tonight, your point about Lidge does not hold water because they won!  So how do you figure?

[utastro]

You forgot "tonight" in your sentence (and the very thing I've been saying too!)

I did not forget.  The question asked was about tonight, thus my answer implied tonight.  But I understand what you are saying, it was only one night.

[Noe]

Hey Michael,

Here is what Garner said:

"It was a slider [that Fielder hit out], but it didn't look like it was a bad pitch," he added. "It had movement on it; I don't know if it was on the middle of the plate or not. And he's been getting left-handers out, that's the unusual part. Other than the fact that he walked a couple of guys early on, once he found the zone a little bit, I thought he threw the ball pretty good."

He's right on Lidge getting left handers out.  Last night in Cincy, Brownie pointed out that Lidge has some good results this season against lefties.  So yet another reason behind Garner's decision.  But he's wrong about the pitch Lidge threw.  It was bad to Fielder.  It was a hanging slider that was supposed to backup and hit the inside corner.  It frisbeed right into the middle of the plate, hence the movement Garner mentioned.  He is right about Gwynn and Weeks, Lidge was horrible on those two ABs.  He was good against Hardy and Hall, two guys who drove in runs tonight.

His pitch to Estrada was horrible and it was as if he was aiming to try and make a perfect pitch away and that is a prescription for trouble.

So any way, I don't believe Garner was insane tonight, just slighty on the gut feeling and slightly on the rationale for continuing to use Lidge.  I could've strangled Lidge for walking Gwynn and Weeks though, that was inexcusable.

[Savage]

So far this year, I haven't seen him have a really bad outing until tonight.

Perhaps this is where we disagree.  Lidge has not had a single outing this year where he has not allowed a hit.  There does not appear to be a trend towards improvement. He's had two AWFUL apperances out of seven total.  I question what good it is doing lidge or the astros to trot him out in situations like this.  There is no evidence that he was getting "there" or improving beyond the end of last year, spring training, or the beginning of this year.  I can keep hoping that lidge finds his touch and that my dog stops farting, but in the meantime we should all stock up on antacids and air freshners.

[Noe]

Perhaps this is where we disagree.  Lidge has not had a single outing this year where he has not allowed a hit.

 

Again, you can have a good outing and still have bad results.  Is this not understood?  Major league hitters don't just hit bad pitches, some of them actually will hit a really damn good pitch... hard!  Doesn't mean the pitcher did badly, it means the hitter did better!

There does not appear to be a trend towards improvement. He's had two AWFUL apperances out of seven total.  I question what good it is doing lidge or the astros to trot him out in situations like this.  There is no evidence that he was getting "there" or improving beyond the end of last year, spring training, or the beginning of this year.  I can keep hoping that lidge finds his touch and that my dog stops farting, but in the meantime we should all stock up on antacids and air freshners.

Watch him pitch, it may help you understand.

[utastro]

Wanna bet.  Where were you when the Astros were 1-5 and deemed the worse team in the majors by the fans.  And the fault was being laid on the offense.  Especially Lance Berkman.

Ironically, tonight, your point about Lidge does not hold water because they won!  So how do you figure?

As I recall, the first 2 games were being blamed on the bullpen.  The offense did enough to win those games and it just so happens, Lidge played a key role in the first loss. He also let another close game get blown wide open.  Lance definately deserves some blame for the slow start since he is the big toe and is not pulling his weight (pun intended).  But again (and again and again) the comparisons on the reactions to Lidge vs the non reaction to Lance are more complex than what you have tried to simplify as "one bad night".

My point about Lidge tonight is that he took 2 steps back instead of forward.  He has already been pulled from the closer's role yet he is still struggling.  Yes he had a good night last night but I would argue that the 9th inning vs the 6th are very different situations.  The 9th inning tonight is a truer test of where Lidge is and he still has a ways to go.

[Noe]

As I recall, the first 2 games were being blamed on the bullpen.

1-5, the offense was being blamed.  I stand by what I said.

My point about Lidge tonight is that he took 2 steps back instead of forward.

'tis what I said as well.  He stunk last night. I did not say any different.

He has already been pulled from the closer's role yet he is still struggling.  Yes he had a good night last night but I would argue that the 9th inning vs the 6th are very different situations.

It's about maintaining his mechanics consistently, no matter what inning.  I don't know what else to tell you, but that is the problem with Lidge, not what inning it is and certainly not whether Pujols is in the box.

The 9th inning tonight is a truer test of where Lidge is and he still has a ways to go.

"truer"?  Oh come on, the true test isn't failure, the true test is how you deal with it.  *sheesh*

[EasTexAstro]

I'm wondering if, at some point, the Astros might get Lidge to the DL and a rehab assignment in the minors to work out some of his issues without the pressure of a MLB park raining boos on him. They have been able to work with him, especially on the road, without too many problems and while still winning games (WOOHOO!).

Honestly, while the Astros ARE winning, I am worried about Lidge. The good thing is, if they can get Lidge back to a more consistant Lidge, the Astros are even better.

[Noe]

I'm wondering if, at some point, the Astros might get Lidge to the DL and a rehab assignment in the minors to work out some of his issues without the pressure of a MLB park raining boos on him. They have been able to work with him, especially on the road, without too many problems and while still winning games (WOOHOO!).

Honestly, while the Astros ARE winning, I am worried about Lidge. The good thing is, if they can get Lidge back to a more consistant Lidge, the Astros are even better.

He has to admit to being injured first, and that does not seem to be forthcoming.

[EasTexAstro]

He has to admit to being injured first, and that does not seem to be forthcoming.

I don't even know if he is injured, but it would explain some things. Rarely do you see someone who has excelled like he has for years just forget how to keep things together without something causing him to adjust. I'm just wondering if this may be an "tactful" way of working with Lidge out of the spotlight.

Like I said, the Astros are better with Lidge.

[Noe]

I don't even know if he is injured, but it would explain some things. Rarely do you see someone who has excelled like he has for years just forget how to keep things together without something causing him to adjust. I'm just wondering if this may be an "tactful" way of working with Lidge out of the spotlight.

Like I said, the Astros are better with Lidge.

I agree with this.  I've said for a good long while that injury to his shoulder probably would explain why he's struggling to maintain.  But until it comes out in the wash and we're told otherwise, right now, it's about getting the work to correct his mechanical flaws.

Last night, he was just throwing lousy.  This was a night after throwing quite well.  Perhaps it has something to do with a back-to-back outing, meaning he is not quite there yet to go back-to-back, but it's another step to working his way through this.

The results are pretty bad, but the idea isn't.

[DVauthrin]

It definitely looked like he aimed the ball on the fielder homer when I watched the highlight.   He needs to stop thinking so much on the mound(I got the sense he was thinking through all his "checkpoints") and just pitch.   Either that or admit his shoulder/arm are barking and get medical treatment.

I am a huge lidge backer, but i'm not so sure a trade wouldn't be best for him based on the vultures in houston just waiting for him to screw up and letting him know about it.

[Sambito]

I am coming in late to this discussion and my view may
not be appreciated, but as a coach in another sport who works
with athletes and confidence, it must be said that there is no
doubt we are witnessing a problem with Brad Lidge, the central
issue is how does he and the astros deal with it.  

One approach offered by Noe, my impression of what Noe is saying,
is to be patient and not be so reactionary.  Consistency is a major
component of confidence. If there are different criteria for recapturing
confidence for players then that creates inconsistency which permeates
team and individual performance (Jason Lane's start is an excellent example).  This goes directly to the FAN-DISPOSABILITY issue.  

One of the most consistent themes I see on this board is the urge to suggest urgent action and contributors responses to this action (justifications and denials).  What if Brad Lidge's process for getting back confidence requires further setbacks?

Getting confidence often does... the mistakes are teachable moments.  This is if you buy the idea there are no injury or irrevocable mechanical issues. Lastly, I have been secretly wishing for trade for Lidge, but after Noe's comment I have re-visited this position.  

[Alkie]

I'm sure I'm making a mistake joining this discussion, but...
Brad Lidge has allowed 19 baserunners in 5.1 IP (3.6 baserunners per IP) this year. 
If you take out his worst outing, he's allowed 14 baserunners in 4.2 IP (3.0 baserunners per IP). 
Take out his next worst outing, he's allowed 10 baserunners in 4 IP (2.5 baserunners per IP).   
Take out the NEXT worst outing, he's allowed 7 baserunners in 3 IP (2.3 baserunners per IP).
Take out the NEXT worst outing, he's allowed 5 baserunners in 2.2 IP (1.9 baserunners per IP).

Even if you take out his 4 worst outings so far, he averages an inning with a runner in scoring position every outing. 

That's not one bad outing.  Only one reliever in baseball has thrown at least as many pitches as him, with the same-or-more-baserunners allowed. 

[Zan]

I will say this again for you all:  You can have a good outing and have bad results from it (see: Nady, Xavier).  His stat line will look bad, but he actually threw well.

Okay, but as I recall, Nady wasn't the only runner who reached in that inning.

Also, as one who does consistently watch, I believe there have also been AB's where the stat line looks good in spite of not throwing well. So that deal cuts both ways. 

[pravata]

I'm sure I'm making a mistake joining this discussion, but...
Brad Lidge has allowed 19 baserunners in 5.1 IP (3.6 baserunners per IP) this year. 
If you take out his worst outing, he's allowed 14 baserunners in 4.2 IP (3.0 baserunners per IP). 
Take out his next worst outing, he's allowed 10 baserunners in 4 IP (2.5 baserunners per IP).   
Take out the NEXT worst outing, he's allowed 7 baserunners in 3 IP (2.3 baserunners per IP).
Take out the NEXT worst outing, he's allowed 5 baserunners in 2.2 IP (1.9 baserunners per IP).

Even if you take out his 4 worst outings so far, he averages an inning with a runner in scoring position every outing. 

That's not one bad outing.  Only one reliever in baseball has thrown at least as many pitches as him, with the same-or-more-baserunners allowed. 

I dont think anyone would try to argue he's good right now.

[Noe]

I'm sure I'm making a mistake joining this discussion, but...
Brad Lidge has allowed 19 baserunners in 5.1 IP (3.6 baserunners per IP) this year. 
If you take out his worst outing, he's allowed 14 baserunners in 4.2 IP (3.0 baserunners per IP). 
Take out his next worst outing, he's allowed 10 baserunners in 4 IP (2.5 baserunners per IP).   
Take out the NEXT worst outing, he's allowed 7 baserunners in 3 IP (2.3 baserunners per IP).
Take out the NEXT worst outing, he's allowed 5 baserunners in 2.2 IP (1.9 baserunners per IP).

Even if you take out his 4 worst outings so far, he averages an inning with a runner in scoring position every outing. 

That's not one bad outing.  Only one reliever in baseball has thrown at least as many pitches as him, with the same-or-more-baserunners allowed. 

*sigh*

[Noe]

Okay, but as I recall, Nady wasn't the only runner who reached in that inning.

Huh?

Also, as one who does consistently watch, I believe there have also been AB's where the stat line looks good in spite of not throwing well. So that deal cuts both ways. 

Again, stats!  *sheesh*  Come on, I'm not arguing stats people!

[Noe]

I dont think anyone would try to argue he's good right now.

Right.  The argument to me is whether he is improving... or not.  Last night tends to make some react that it's OVER!  I say it is a bad night and let it go.  It happens to humans.  The tell tale thing to look for is if he comes back the next time and *continues* to improve.

Is *THIS* so hard to understand?

[homer]

Right.  The argument to me is whether he is improving... or not.  Last night tends to make some react that it's OVER!  I say it is a bad night and let it go.  It happens to humans.  The tell tale thing to look for is if he comes back the next time and *continues* to improve.

Is *THIS* so hard to understand?

The statement that led to this thread was 'One bad night'. Now you want to defend that it isn't 'over'?

You still stand by the statement that this is Lidge's first bad night? Ever?

Or his first since some point in time? The beginning of the season? Since he lost his job? What?

Or are you saying that the one good night the game before was enough to 'erase' all the other bad nights because it shows he is improving?

[Noe]

The statement that led to this thread was 'One bad night'. Now you want to defend that it isn't 'over'?

No, I said he had one bad night.  Period.

You still stand by the statement that this is Lidge's first bad night?

Yes.

Ever?

No.  This year.

Or his first since some point in time? The beginning of the season? Since he lost his job? What?

We're talking about this season because that is what matters.  Since he is working on making his way back, last night was the first bad night I've seen him throw (I did not see the Cardinal game).  I'm sorry this was not clear.

Or are you saying that the one good night the game before was enough to 'erase' all the other bad nights because it shows he is improving?

I'm saying what I said.  Read my first post and then the second for context.

[Nate in IA]

No I'm not. I'm saying that the wicked slider with the sharp downward break is what led to Lidge's prominence, and he has not had any semblance of that pitch since 2004. His slider in 2005 looked totally different from his slider in 2004. You know this as well as I do. I think an injury is what accounts for the difference. You do, too. I've seen you post to this effect many times. If anyone is being disingenuous, my friend, it's you.

I saw one of those sliders last night.

[Noe]

I saw one of those sliders last night.

Second strike to Fielder.  Very nasty.  The fastball that sank to Hardy was nice as well.  The fastball on the hands to Hall was pretty good.  But his overall night was horrible.  It is consistency, not lack of stuff that is hurting Lidge.

Why anyone wants to imply that Lidge has lost his stuff is okay, but I see that he's lost his ability to consistently throw strikes with said stuff.

[homer]

We're talking about this season because that is what matters.  Since he is working on making his way back, last night was the first bad night I've seen him throw (I did not see the Cardinal game).  I'm sorry this was not clear.

If you frame this up since the Cardinal game, which is what you seem to be doing, since that is when he lost his job and quit throwing the cutter (focusing on the fastball and slider only) then, sure, yeah. He has pitched 3 2/3 innings since then and last night was his first bad game. Fine, I agree.

However, he has a history of inconsistency since the beginning of last season. He has had plenty of bad nights. I don't know how you can not take that into account when you are evaluating his performance. You would have to discount all of this history to make the statement 'One bad night'.

[mihoba]

Second strike to Fielder.  Very nasty.  The fastball that sank to Hardy was nice as well.  The fastball on the hands to Hall was pretty good.  But his overall night was horrible.  It is consistency, not lack of stuff that is hurting Lidge.

Why anyone wants to imply that Lidge has lost his stuff is okay, but I see that he's lost his ability to consistently throw strikes with said stuff.

The strikeout pitch to Hardy was nasty, too.

The problem was getting behind (not locating his FB?) to the first two hitters when he couldn't throw a strike to save his life.

[Noe]

Fine, I agree.

Great.  Move on then.

However, he has a history of inconsistency since the beginning of last season. He has had plenty of bad nights. I don't know how you can not take that into account when you are evaluating his performance. You would have to discount all of this history to make the statement 'One bad night'.

Damn, I thought you had agreed.  Now you want to frame my own argument for me.

"Your honor, if your going to try my case for me, I wish you'd do a better job of it than that!"

[Zan]

Is *THIS* so hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand. It's just unfalsifiable. You assert that he's improving and has had one bad night this season, and if we counter with bad stat lines, those don't count because you're not arguing stats. I get your point, but I've also watched him pitch and feel very differently.

[Noe]

The strikeout pitch to Hardy was nasty, too.

The problem was getting behind (not locating his FB?) to the first two hitters when he couldn't throw a strike to save his life.

DING! DING! DING!

[Nate in IA]

Second strike to Fielder.  Very nasty.  The fastball that sank to Hardy was nice as well.  The fastball on the hands to Hall was pretty good.  But his overall night was horrible.  It is consistency, not lack of stuff that is hurting Lidge.

Why anyone wants to imply that Lidge has lost his stuff is okay, but I see that he's lost his ability to consistently throw strikes with said stuff.

Indeed.  Pitching is all about muscle memory and believing that your pitch is going to go where it's supposed to.  I believe Lidge still has the muscle memory, he just doesn't believe that the pitch is going to go where it's supposed to so he thinks about it too much.  It looked to me last night that he was thinking about every pitch instead of knowing implicitly that he was going to throw the right pitch to the right spot. 

Oh, and that home plate ump last night was absolutely horrible.  I do think his incredibly erratic strike zone played into Lidge's bad night.

[ramble mode]
A few years ago I was standing above the bullpens at Coors field during a game and there was a left-handed pitcher in there throwing through a device placed above the plate.  This device was two poles stuck in the batter's boxes with two strings strung between them.  Those two strings had two strings strung between them as well so you had a box suspended above the plate.   This pitcher's job was simply to throw the ball through the box, over and over and over again.  Oh, that pitcher's name happened to be Jeff Francis.  I believe this exercise was to get him to believe that he could throw the ball where it was supposed to go and to ingrain that belief in his mind.  I think Lidge needs to regain that belief (I refuse to call it confidence due to the loose usage of that word by the talking heads).
[/ramble mode]

[Noe]

I get your point, but I've also watched him pitch and feel very differently.

Cool.  Nothing wrong with that.  But see, I was jumped on for having a different opinion, and y'all seem hell bent on making me feel bad for saying what I did with your slide rules.  It ain't gonna happen. Peyote induced or not.

[Zan]

Cool.  Nothing wrong with that.  But see, I was jumped on for having a different opinion, and y'all seem hell bent on making me feel bad for saying what I did with your slide rules.  It ain't gonna happen. Peyote induced or not.

I hear you, but my philosophy is this is the big leagues, and you're getting paid the huge bucks to produce results, bad luck or not.

[Noe]

Indeed.  Pitching is all about muscle memory and believing that your pitch is going to go where it's supposed to.  I believe Lidge still has the muscle memory, he just doesn't believe that the pitch is going to go where it's supposed to so he thinks about it too much.  It looked to me last night that he was thinking about every pitch instead of knowing implicitly that he was going to throw the right pitch to the right spot.

Damn Nate, get out of my head!  I was expecting rationale discussion about Lidge in here and you've come through.  Thanks!

Oh, and that home plate ump last night was absolutely horrible.  I do think his incredibly erratic strike zone played into Lidge's bad night.

Once again, get out of my head bro!

[ramble mode]
A few years ago I was standing above the bullpens at Coors field during a game and there was a left-handed pitcher in there throwing through a device placed above the plate.  This device was two poles stuck in the batter's boxes with two strings strung between them.  Those two strings had two strings strung between them as well so you had a box suspended above the plate.   This pitcher's job was simply to throw the ball through the box, over and over and over again.  Oh, that pitcher's name happened to be Jeff Francis.  I believe this exercise was to get him to believe that he could throw the ball where it was supposed to go and to ingrain that belief in his mind.  I think Lidge needs to regain that belief (I refuse to call it confidence due to the loose usage of that word by the talking heads).
[/ramble mode]

Yes, and then take to the hill with him in a game situation. It won't happen in closer situations because that means erratice opportunities to do so.  But if you move him down and give him more IPs to pitch, he can then do as you said, then use it in an actual game.  Last night, *THIS YEAR*, was the first time I just plain saw him clueless or overthinking what he needed to do.

Umpire didn't help, but overall, his first two ABs were gad awful.  He rallied back to get Hardy (who hit a homerun last night) and Hall (who had a rbi single last night), but his battle with Fielder and Estrada were less than wonderful in terms of what he needed to do.  Of course, with Fielder, he had some nice pitches, but one fat backup slider did his night in.

His fat pitch to Estrada was a "I give up, here hit it and I hope you make an out" type of fastball.  Estrada made him pay dearly for that do nothing pitch.  He needed to be pulled right then and there if he has that attitude.  And Garner did.

[homer]

Damn, I thought you had agreed.  Now you want to frame my own argument for me.

"Your honor, if your going to try my case for me, I wish you'd do a better job of it than that!"

Your argument is absurd.

If some Clark came into the TZ and wanted to measure any another player by only 4 games as staunchly as you have defended Lidge, he would get run.

[Noe]

I hear you, but my philosophy is this is the big leagues, and you're getting paid the huge bucks to produce results, bad luck or not.

I never said he had bad luck last night.  I said he stunk!

[Zan]

I never said he had bad luck last night.  I said he stunk!

Right, and it's been a while since he's consistently produced results.

[Noe]

Your argument is absurd.

At least it's mine and not something you want to ascribe to me.  And you actually "agreed" with me, so what does that say?

If some Clark came into the TZ and wanted to measure any another player by only 4 games as staunchly as you have defended Lidge, he would get run.

I wrote what I wrote within the context of what I meant.  You were the first to question it and I honestly answered it.  You don't like my answers, fine.  Just don't make up something I didn't say in order to counter my position about last night.  And if you want to run me, go for it.

[Noe]

Right, and it's been a while since he's consistently produced results.

Like all of Thursday night.

[homer]

At least it's mine and not something you want to ascribe to me.  And you actually "agreed" with me, so what does that say?

It says that I won't deny the undeniable. In the last 4 games that Lidge has pitched, it is undeniable that only the one last night was bad.

I wrote what I wrote within the context of what I meant.  You were the first to question it and I honestly answered it.  You don't like my answers, fine.  Just don't make up something I didn't say in order to counter my position about last night.  And if you want to run me, go for it.

I questioned the relevance and logic of evaluating Lidge with such a small sample. I never said it was your words.

These train wrecks are usually pretty entertaining, whether its a Clark or Pope. What makes the Pope train wreck unique is that they don't falter, no matter how pointless and absurd the argument is. That is commendable.

[Noe]

It says that I won't deny the undeniable. In the last 4 games that Lidge has pitched, it is undeniable that only the one last night was bad.

Yet, it's absurd?

I questioned the relevance and logic of evaluating Lidge with such a small sample. I never said it was your words.

Then go argue that with someone else.  You asked me about my "one bad night" comment.  I answered, then you want to take it somewhere I never implied nor said it should go.  At that point, have it at with whoever you wish, it's not *my* point.

These train wrecks are usually pretty entertaining, whether its a Clark or Pope. What makes the Pope train wreck unique is that they don't falter, no matter how pointless and absurd the argument is. That is commendable.

*choo-choo*.  I wonder who is the Pope in this regard, Mr. Pot.  Arrogant much?  You keep trying to twist my words to match your own indignation.  Have fun storming the castle, but it's a futile exercise on your part.

[TheWizard]

IMO, his problem is his location with his fastball.  It looks like he may have gotten in trouble with a hanging slider or two last night... which is why he looked worse than usual.  But generally, it seems like his FB is either out of the zone or right down broadway - usually not hitting corners.

[Noe]

IMO, his problem is his location with his fastball.  It looks like he may have gotten in trouble with a hanging slider or two last night... which is why he looked worse than usual.  But generally, it seems like his FB is either out of the zone or right down broadway - usually not hitting corners.

Yup.  A product of mechanics being out of whack and why the two ABs (Gwynn and Weeks) were just awful.  I thought maybe his arm was barking since the pitched the night before and he was just trying to get the feel in his arm to losen up a little.

He pitched relatively well after that, but he hung a horrible pitch to Fielder and left a meatball pitch to Estrada that he had no business doing.  He should continue to pitch at that point and let the homerun go.  He didn't.

[strosrays]

Indeed.  Pitching is all about muscle memory and believing that your pitch is going to go where it's supposed to.  I believe Lidge still has the muscle memory, he just doesn't believe that the pitch is going to go where it's supposed to so he thinks about it too much.  It looked to me last night that he was thinking about every pitch instead of knowing implicitly that he was going to throw the right pitch to the right spot. 

Oh, and that home plate ump last night was absolutely horrible.  I do think his incredibly erratic strike zone played into Lidge's bad night.

Part of muscle memory is repetition, good or bad.  I think one reason why relief pitchers are so erratic in general is because they pitch so little, relatively speaking.  And Lidge is just the latest example of Mythbusters 101, why the whole idea of "closer" as some rare specialty which should be paid for dearly is mostly bogus.

I caught a glimpse of Lidge's face after he realized Fielder's shot was going to stay fair and had spun around on the mound.  I'm not a psychologist, sports or otherwise, but I hope Garner doesn't put him in any situation where the team is ahead or close to it any time soon, because I think Lidge is done as a useful option for awhile, maybe a good while.

[Noe]

Part of muscle memory is repetition, good or bad.  I think one reason why relief pitchers are so erratic in general is because they pitch so little, relatively speaking.  And Lidge is just the latest example of Mythbusters 101, why the whole idea of "closer" as some rare specialty which should be paid for dearly is mostly bogus.

I caught a glimpse of Lidge's face after he realized Fielder's shot was going to stay fair and had spun around on the mound.  I'm not a psychologist, sports or otherwise, but I hope Garner doesn't put him in any situation where the team is ahead or close to it any time soon, because I think Lidge is done as a useful option for awhile, maybe a good while.

They're (the Astros and Lidge) being elusive on the whole sports psychologist thing right now with Lidge.  He may be seeing one for all we know.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

It's probably Garner's fault for making him face Pooholes that one time.

Sometimes people don't do what you want them to. After a fashion, a pattern is established. Then it either becomes a reliability issue or it doesn't.

Right now Lidge isn't reliable. In fact, anymore, it's an adventure everytime he takes the mound. But an adventure that creates more anxiety than thrills.

The concern needs to be on how to help him get back to being someone the team can depend on.

[Noe]

The concern needs to be on how to help him get back to being someone the team can depend on.

Seems the limited options are to work him or trade him at this point.  I'm now leaning heavily on trade him for his own sake.  I feel he's toast in Houston similar to Jay Powell, so he's too good a guy to have this turn into a soap opera for him.

I wish patience was the order of the day, but I keep getting told that 2006 was his patience days and now, it is over.  So be it.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Seems the limited options are to work him or trade him at this point.  I'm now leaning heavily on trade him for his own sake.  I feel he's toast in Houston similar to Jay Powell, so he's too good a guy to have this turn into a soap opera for him.

I agree, but still, I harbour some hope that he'll make some great turn-around. Hell, everyone loves a good redeemption story.

[strosrays]

I agree, but still, I harbour some hope that he'll make some great turn-around. Hell, everyone loves a good redeemption story.

I realize his past injury history likely precludes this, but I wouldn't mind him as a spot starter, long man, with an eye toward a regular rotation gig in the future.  A struggling closer going into the rotation to work out his problems would be interesting from a historical perspective, if nothing else.

I guarantee you, right now the are a couple hundred thousand BFiBs who think LaRussa and Dave Duncan could straighten Lidge out, straight away.  Only they are all being quiet about it, because each thinks he is the first to think of it, and can hardly wait to spring it on the fellas Monday, around the water cooler, on the message boards, etc.

[Zan]

I wish patience was the order of the day...

Again, you cannot have patience and huge salaries both be the order of the day. Lidge has the latter, which precludes the former.  Patience is not the order of the day at the highest level of any trade that I know of.

[matadorph]

I'm kinda sorta with you Noe. I don't wanna lose Lidge because I know if he's wearing another uniform he'll excel again and we'll regret it, but at the same time his travails have morphed into a circus sideshow for asshole boobirds. Lidge frustrates me as much as the next guy but booing him strikes me as incredibly counterproductive. As it stands now, Garner has to be very careful about using him at MMPUS, which is not the ideal environment to manage a team. He has to have all options available to him, but the hostility from the home fans makes that difficult to say the least. Is he a liability to the team?

[Noe]

I agree, but still, I harbour some hope that he'll make some great turn-around. Hell, everyone loves a good redeemption story.

Ryan Dempster comes to mind.  (and so does LaTroy Hawkins on the flip side).  Dempster had ungodly great stuff while with the Marlins.  His slider was nasty and he humped it up there in the mid to high nineties.  There were times he was unhittable.  But he reached a point where the league caught up to him, he started to get hammered (especially homeruns) and some thought he was damaged goods.

He then went to being a starter and then a closer for the Reds (if I remember correctly), the story being that if anyone in the league could straighten out a very lost talented pitcher, it would be the Red's pitching coach at the time.  He was cited for his work with guys like Brent Tomko, so they thought they could fix Dempster.  But he got worse, some started to call him Brian Dumpster.

Fast forward to today, after working hard, Ryan Dempster no longer throws as hard as he did and he doesn't have a nasty slider any more.  Is he a dominant closer?  Not by a long shot.  But is he effective?  Yes, yes he is.  He has worked his way back with a good knowledge of how to get three outs in the ninth and go sit down.  Will fans vote Dempster to the All-Star game or will he wind up in the same sentences as Mariano Rivera?  No.

But it's a good story.

[Noe]

I'm kinda sorta with you Noe. I don't wanna lose Lidge because I know if he's wearing another uniform he'll excel again and we'll regret it, but at the same time his travails have morphed into a circus sideshow for asshole boobirds. Lidge frustrates me as much as the next guy but booing him strikes me as incredibly counterproductive. As it stands now, Garner has to be very careful about using him at MMPUS, which is not the ideal environment to manage a team. He has to have all options available to him, but the hostility from the home fans makes that difficult to say the least. Is he a liability to the team?

If Lidge is the topic of the day *after* a win, he is then a liability.  We're talking the Houston Astros winning last night.  The team is 8-1 after going 1-5 to start the season.  The offense is getting scary good.  The starters have all, perhaps with a little bit of Woody failures, done their job.  Chad Qualls is a monster in the pen (and yes, he would be my chalk pick to close from now on).  Wheeler is coming around.  The bench is solid as solid can be.  Biggio is stabilizing.  Burke is finding himself.  Ausmus and Everett no longer have to worry about being run producers at the bottom of the lineup so that makes for a more relaxed attitude to hitting.

But we're talking about Brad Lidge instead.  If it creeps into the team because the media nor fans will drop it, yes... it will hurt the team.  But I bet you to a man they don't want Lidge gone.  As long as they are winning, they will take giving Lidge his chances.

But I fear that others will not and that means it's over.

[Noe]

Again, you cannot have patience...

This is where you should've stopped.  It's understandable given what fandom is today.  I am fightiing upstream with today's baseball fans.  Not that it is bad per se, just different than what I'm used to when it comes to baseball.

[Lefty]

Again, you cannot have patience and huge salaries both be the order of the day.

Bullshit.  *You* can't.  Many others who have mastered the skills requisite in dialing phone & banging keyboard can't.  The only people that matter, the guys down at Crawford & Texas, apparently *do* have a little patience, or else he would have been gone last offseason.

He's on a 1-year deal.  His salary, in terms of making personnel adjustments to this year's team, is just about completely irrelevant.

[chuck]

Seems the limited options are to work him or trade him at this point.  I'm now leaning heavily on trade him for his own sake.

I most definitely want the team to keep him and work him. I do not think the situation is untenable, yet.

But your See No Evil, Hear No Evil approach to Lidge's outings over the past - well, let's just confine it to this year - since Spring Training is just ludicrous.

[JimR]

Again, you cannot have patience and huge salaries both be the order of the day. Lidge has the latter, which precludes the former.  Patience is not the order of the day at the highest level of any trade that I know of.

what bullshit.

[Noe]

But your See No Evil, Hear No Evil approach to Lidge's outings over the past - well, let's just confine it to this year - since Spring Training is just ludicrous.

I said, very clearly, he sucked last night.  Your lack of understanding what I said is equally ludicrous, but who really cares beyond you and me?  No one, that's who.  I stand by what I said within the context of what I said.  You and others made more of it than what it was (and you even decided it was cool to add insult to it too) because I interrupted the good rant you all had going... that is on you, not me.

[Sambito]

Again, you cannot have patience and huge salaries both be the order of the day. Lidge has the latter, which precludes the former.  Patience is not the order of the day at the highest level of any trade that I know of.

not true; ask any manager of a player going through a slump
A-rod may be a fashionable example, while he has and is a superstar
it has taken him a number of years to fit in with the yankees.  Noe brought
up Buerle; I am sure there a hundreds of others who make an un-godly
amount of money and have required patience... the relievers are more disposable
and more visable!..

In fact CHANGE happens in stages:

Prochaska:
1) Stage 1: pre-contemplation (a problem exists - arm angle, pitch selection etc)
2) Stage 2: Contemplation (I have a problem - confidence, aiming the ball etc.)
3) Stage 3: Preparation (building supports, accessing resources, & teachable moments)
4) Stage 4: Action (repetition, risky behaviors, trying something different)
5) Stage 5: Maintenance (stabilizing gains, adjusting to resistance, muscle memory)

If you want Lidge to miraculously change, then you should look and see where he is
in stage development.... everytime he has to revisit past errors fans go back to stage one when in actuality he needs support, a way to learn and profit from mistakes and honest non-biased feedback....  He is stuck in stage 3; every mistake from here gets magnified and hence the "need a change of scenary" approach is often a solution.

Why, so he can back to stage 1 at another organization and progress through change and build confidence.. I think what Noe is saying is that Lidge is not that far off and patience here by fans, writers, management would be well-served (after all this April isn't it?)

[chuck]

I said, very clearly, he sucked last night.  Your lack of understanding what I said is equally ludicrous, but who really cares beyond you and me?  No one, that's who.  I stand by what I said within the context of what I said.  You and others made more of it than what it was (and you even decided it was cool to add insult to it too) because I interrupted the good rant you all had going... that is on you, not me.

If you think I delivered an insult then you have some thin fucking skin. Which I already knew since you insist on countering every single post in this thread and countless others like it.

[Jose Cruz III]

If you think I delivered an insult then you have some thin fucking skin. Which I already knew since you insist on countering every single post in this thread and countless others like it.

I'll admit up front that I am an idiot, but Lidge has had more than one bad night this year. That being said, he has also had more than one good night too. But, his salary aside, probably what would be best for Lidge right now is if he was made the closer for Round Rock. There would be much less pressure on him there. And I, still knowing that I am an idiot, think 6th inning work will not fix a ninth inning mentality. And I think we all hope that Brad finds his ninth inning mentality of 2 years ago.

Fortunately my name is not Drayton or Purpura.

Disclaimer: I am not saying it is all in his head. But I am saying that whatever his problem is has affected his head.

[Nate in IA]

I'm going to wade into this one, Heaven help me.

What I see is a dichotomy between those who seem to have some personal vested interest in the Astros doing well and those who enjoy the game of baseball and especially the brand of baseball the Astros play.  I suspect it's the difference between those who have in fact pitched or caught in a real baseball game and those who haven't played at all or who played some other position without caring what the pitchers did.  I admit, I cannot understand the seeming endless stream of armchair managing.  If those of you who think Lidge is a liability to the team are so sure of yourselves, why are you not calling up Tim Purpura asking for the managing job?  Perhaps it's because you know you'd never get past his secretary.  What does it matter to you personally if Lidge is given a chance to get his attitude back?  Why do you care how much Drayton chooses to pay the man?  Is it you who have guided the Astros to the playoffs and World Series?  Again, I ask you, what bearing on your personal life do actions of the Astros major league baseball team have?  Why do you care so much?

I'll admit it, I'm a Brad Lidge fan.  I think he is an outstanding human being and the kind of person the Astros want on their baseball team.  That is why the Astros are my favorite team.  I root for him every time he takes the hill and I am sorry for him when it doesn't go as well as he would like.  That does not mean, however, that what he does on the mound has any effect in my life beyond having to read the drivel here about how Lidge should be sent packing.  I am hopeful that Brad would accept an assignment to AAA, or even AA if necessary, to get him out of the limelight and back concentrating solely on pitching.  That is entirely up to the Astros management however, I have no bearing on that (and neither do you!) He can be dominant again, but as we've seen, being dominant is not a permanent condition, merely a time in the sun.  I trust those that run the Astros baseball team to do what's right for the Astros and what's right for Brad Lidge.  I look forward to tonight's contest and hope (just to be spiteful) that Garner runs Lidge out there again, just to tick off the naysayers.

[Ty in Tampa]

Sensibility such as yours will not be tolerated.

[WulawHorn]

I hope that he gets traded.

He seems like a good dude- I think he is just absolutely done in houston, for any number of reasons.

Hopefully he gets it together, be it here or elsewhere.

If it were me, and I was moving him, I'd do it to the AL to a team like Boston or somesuch.  If he does get fixed, as we've seen, he is as good as anyone in baseball. I'd hate to see him do that as a turdnal, brave, met, or dojer.

[Noe]

If you think I delivered an insult then you have some thin fucking skin. Which I already knew since you insist on countering every single post in this thread and countless others like it.

WFW!  If you don't like me expressing my opinion, then I don't know what else to do to satisfy your reply to me.  Should I just ignore you?

[Noe]

I'm going to wade into this one, Heaven help me.

What I see is a dichotomy between those who seem to have some personal vested interest in the Astros doing well and those who enjoy the game of baseball and especially the brand of baseball the Astros play.  I suspect it's the difference between those who have in fact pitched or caught in a real baseball game and those who haven't played at all or who played some other position without caring what the pitchers did.  I admit, I cannot understand the seeming endless stream of armchair managing.  If those of you who think Lidge is a liability to the team are so sure of yourselves, why are you not calling up Tim Purpura asking for the managing job?  Perhaps it's because you know you'd never get past his secretary.  What does it matter to you personally if Lidge is given a chance to get his attitude back?  Why do you care how much Drayton chooses to pay the man?  Is it you who have guided the Astros to the playoffs and World Series?  Again, I ask you, what bearing on your personal life do actions of the Astros major league baseball team have?  Why do you care so much?

I'll admit it, I'm a Brad Lidge fan.  I think he is an outstanding human being and the kind of person the Astros want on their baseball team.  That is why the Astros are my favorite team.  I root for him every time he takes the hill and I am sorry for him when it doesn't go as well as he would like.  That does not mean, however, that what he does on the mound has any effect in my life beyond having to read the drivel here about how Lidge should be sent packing.  I am hopeful that Brad would accept an assignment to AAA, or even AA if necessary, to get him out of the limelight and back concentrating solely on pitching.  That is entirely up to the Astros management however, I have no bearing on that (and neither do you!) He can be dominant again, but as we've seen, being dominant is not a permanent condition, merely a time in the sun.  I trust those that run the Astros baseball team to do what's right for the Astros and what's right for Brad Lidge.  I look forward to tonight's contest and hope (just to be spiteful) that Garner runs Lidge out there again, just to tick off the naysayers.

Thin skin and level headedness like this will not be tolerated.  Either rant or get off the pot.

[chuck]

WFW!  If you don't like me expressing my opinion, then I don't know what else to do to satisfy your reply to me.  Should I just ignore you?

It's funny. You and I had this exact same conversation three years ago or so. Don't straw man me with this "if you don't like me expressing my opinion" bullshit.

If you say something that is patently false and absurd besides, such as Lidge is being criticized for only one bad outing, and you do so in the face of personal observation and statistical information (regardless of whether you mock this information or not), don't be surprised if people, or, more to the point, don't be surprised if I gently make fun of you when you doggedly cling to your silly premise. You can label that an insult if you wish, but you and I both know better.

[Noe]

It's funny. You and I had this exact same conversation three years ago or so.

What's funny is that you remember something from three years ago, when I have no idea what you're talking about.  You often harbor such bitterness?

Don't straw man me with this "if you don't like me expressing my opinion" bullshit.

How about the "just ignore me" angle?  Work for you?  I think it will work for me.

If you say something that is patently false and absurd besides, such as Lidge is being criticized for only one bad outing,

Your lack of understanding something very simple that I said knows no bounds.  Now you're trying to say something I never said.  Why don't you just ignore me so you don't have subject yourself to my opinions... or the opinions you think I have and are very comfortable making up.

and you do so in the face of personal observation and statistical information (regardless of whether you mock this information or not), don't be surprised if people, or, more to the point, don't be surprised if I gently make fun of you when you doggedly cling to your silly premise.

Make fun of me all you want.  I will defend myself in light of that.  But you don't seem to want me to do so.  That is what perplexes me on this one.  And I don't really give a rat's arse whether you like my opinion or not.

You can label that an insult if you wish, but you and I both know better.

I know what I know and nothing more.  I have no idea what you know.

[utastro]

Ok, I'm back, what did I miss?

[chuck]

You often harbor such bitterness?

Are you projecting here? I don't harbo(u)r any bitterness. Why would I? We're talking (talking!) about baseball (baseball!). As the Astros' cleanup hitter might tell you, there are far more important things in the world.

I don't wish to ignore you because I generally enjoy your input and, believe it or not, I occasionally find myself learning something from you. I may learn more about Mexican food than baseball, but I'm open to new and useful information regarding all of the world's great things.

I don't want to get into a protracted pissing match with you, buey, I really don't. I'm not alone in thinking that your take on the Lidge thing the other day was way off the wall. You had your take and you defended it. And defended it. And defended it. That's cool. I'm ready to move on to the next thing. If you want the last word, please take it. Otherwise I'll see you in the GZ tomorrow if my luck with wireless here keeps up.

[Mr. Happy]

Lidge is a big league pitcher with awesome. Let him work it out in Housto isead of Rouid Rock.

[EasTexAstro]

Lidge is a big league pitcher with awesome. Let him work it out in Housto isead of Rouid Rock.

Looks like Paul found the happy juice.

[pravata]

Are you projecting here? I don't harbo(u)r any bitterness. Why would I? We're talking (talking!) about baseball (baseball!). As the Astros' cleanup hitter might tell you, there are far more important things in the world.

I don't wish to ignore you because I generally enjoy your input and, believe it or not, I occasionally find myself learning something from you. I may learn more about Mexican food than baseball, but I'm open to new and useful information regarding all of the world's great things.

I don't want to get into a protracted pissing match with you, buey, I really don't. I'm not alone in thinking that your take on the Lidge thing the other day was way off the wall. You had your take and you defended it. And defended it. And defended it. That's cool. I'm ready to move on to the next thing. If you want the last word, please take it. Otherwise I'll see you in the GZ tomorrow if my luck with wireless here keeps up.

Noe is not "off the wall", he's on the same wavelength as Garner, one bad game,

"He's actually pitched pretty good when he's been in there [since leaving the closer's role]," Garner said. "He's had three pretty good outings and then I would say last night was not a good one."
Link

[Mr. Happy]

Looks like Paul found the happy juice.

I don;t want to watch him pitch over clearly overatched hitters.

[WulawHorn]

Noe is not "off the wall", he's on the same wavelength as Garner, one bad game,

"He's actually pitched pretty good when he's been in there [since leaving the closer's role]," Garner said. "He's had three pretty good outings and then I would say last night was not a good one."
Link

Yeah P- but Gar is also the guy that told us Burke plays the greatest LF defense in the National League, Lamb is a good defensive 3b, Lidge is his guy unless he blows like 10 saves in the first week etc.  Gar builds guys up in the press. I have to believe he doesn't necessarily believe some of what he says- b/c some of what he says is absurd.  Nothing wrong with being positive in the press though.

[pravata]

Yeah P- but Gar is also the guy that told us Burke plays the greatest LF defense in the National League, Lamb is a good defensive 3b, Lidge is his guy unless he blows like 10 saves in the first week etc.  Gar builds guys up in the press. I have to believe he doesn't necessarily believe some of what he says- b/c some of what he says is absurd.  Nothing wrong with being positive in the press though.

This sounds a lot like Richard Justice.  He often tells us that the Astros don't mean what they say.  He suggests that he will tell us what they really mean.  Are you going to try to interpret for us as well?  I don't think that Garner consulted with Noe before agreeing with him about Lidge's performance.   

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

This sounds a lot like Richard Justice.  He often tells us that the Astros don't mean what they say.  He suggests that he will tell us what they really mean.  Are you going to try to interpret for us as well?  I don't think that Garner consulted with Noe before agreeing with him about Lidge's performance.   

Garner has been known to throw a little subterfuge at the press. What manager hasn't? Specualting on statements that are less than clear doesn't automatically mean one suspects a conspiracy. Or that one is being like Richard Justice.

[pravata]

Garner has been known to throw a little subterfuge at the press. What manager hasn't? Specualting on statements that are less than clear doesn't automatically mean one suspects a conspiracy. Or that one is being like Richard Justice.

Yes he has.  But, does he always?  Can you always dismiss Garner's statements in the press?  I don't think you can, not when there is an independent, collaborating argument  being made prior to Garner's statement by Noe.  See the difference?  Equating what he said about Lamb with what he is trying to tell us about Lidge, is just lazy.  I don't know how you can learn anything using that method.

[Bench]

Yes he has.  But, does he always?  Can you always dismiss Garner's statements in the press?  I don't think you can, not when there is an independent, collaborating argument  being made prior to Garner's statement by Noe.  See the difference?  Equating what he said about Lamb with what he is trying to tell us about Lidge, is just lazy.  I don't know how you can learn anything using that method.

I think it's a phenomenon known as "believe what you want" and then cherrypick supporting evidence.

[pravata]

I think it's a phenomenon known as "believe what you want" and then cherrypick supporting evidence.

That cuts both ways.

[Bench]

That cuts both ways.

It's a universal condition.

[TheWizard]

I just wish Lidge would change the hitter's eye level every now and then with his fastball.  That, or hit corners, or do anything with it besides throw it right down the pike.  In my humble opinion, if he did that.. everything would fall into place.  I don't see a problem with his slider or cutter as of now (assuming he doesn't hang his slider like he did a couple nights ago).

[HudsonHawk]

I just wish Lidge would change the hitter's eye level every now and then with his fastball.  That, or hit corners, or do anything with it besides throw it right down the pike.  In my humble opinion, if he did that.. everything would fall into place. 

So in your humble opinion, if Lidge could just throw 98 mph fastballs with pinpoint control and split corners whenever he wanted, he'd be pretty effective?  Why that's so crazy, it just might work.  Quick, get him on the phone...

[juliogotay]

One of the Baseball Tonight crew reported on Friday night that he had rec'd an e-mail from Ausmus stating that Lidge's stuff was fine but that he wasn't pitching with any confidence. This was after the poor Friday performance but that message would have had to be sent prior to Friday's game.

[TheWizard]

So in your humble opinion, if Lidge could just throw 98 mph fastballs with pinpoint control and split corners whenever he wanted, he'd be pretty effective?  Why that's so crazy, it just might work.  Quick, get him on the phone...

Actually, Stevie Wonder, that's not what my main point was.  I didn't say he has to be Greg Maddux, when you throw 95-97, you can get awaywith more.  What I did say was Lidge never changes the hitter's eye level, it seems like he's always throwing a belt-high fb.  Vertical changes are just as important as horizontally hitting corners - Lidge as of now isn't PITCHING well, even though he is throwing pretty well.  Even if he throws his FB down out of the zone, it would make hitters think twice about swinging at it everytime they felt fastball coming.  And like I said, if he could hit a frickin corner every now and then and not throw it down the pike, that'd be nice too.

I've still got some faith in him (some), but he needs to mature as a pitcher.  He was making a living off striking guys out by throwing his nasty slider in the dirt, but now hitters have adjusted.  Time for him to take his own second step and learn to use his fastball more effectively to get people out with - because despite the fact he throws heat, its never been his out pitch.

[Noe]

Noe is not "off the wall", he's on the same wavelength as Garner, one bad game,

"He's actually pitched pretty good when he's been in there [since leaving the closer's role]," Garner said. "He's had three pretty good outings and then I would say last night was not a good one."
Link

I said as much but somehow it keeps getting morphed into something else.  Why?  I don't really know why other than folks like chucky have a need to make me a bad guy.

Cool.

[Noe]

Yes he has.  But, does he always?  Can you always dismiss Garner's statements in the press?  I don't think you can, not when there is an independent, collaborating argument  being made prior to Garner's statement by Noe.  See the difference?  Equating what he said about Lamb with what he is trying to tell us about Lidge, is just lazy.  I don't know how you can learn anything using that method.

I said what I said based on what I've seen this year from Lidge.  That Garner sees the same thing is fine with me.  But what bothers me is that I can't say that in *this* forum for some reason.  Instead, it has been dismissed as some sort of pollyana, head in the sand talk by me.

It is not.

It is exactly what I see and I shared it with y'all.  If I can't do it here, then this place is not the level-headed, intelligent forum for baseball talk that I've bragged on before.  Instead, it is the same damn type of forum you can find elsewhere... where you can just rant away about a player without restraint nor a bit of discussion as to what you're seeing.  Stats do provide a counter to what I'm seeing, but what I've said so far is that a stat can mislead if you take Xavier Nady's AB on Opening Day as an example.  It is a bad result and a stat will reflect that performance as bad.  Cool, that is what a stat will tell you, the result.  It is that cut and dry with a stat.  But observation of the same Nady AB will tell you something different.  It will tell you Lidge was not off that night, he was actually doing well, even with his pitch to Nady.  He got beat by a good hitter that night who either guessed right or knew what was coming.  So when I say he had a good outing, please don't misunderstand that as me saying I am disavowing stats or don't realize that he just gave up a lead and blew a save.

I'm telling you what I see and I'll always provide that context for y'all too.  What happened with me this time around is my point got morphed into something else by those with agendas with me.  So be it.  I'll just ignore those folks from now because it's something else that is driving the replies and not baseball talk.

[Noe]

I don't wish to ignore you...

I'm asking you to do so, because I don't ever want to have to explain something so simple to you again.  Not when you twist it into something else.  That is dishonest and I don't usually spend time talking to folks who like to do that.  This will be the last time you'll have to deal with me again too.  So for you own sake, put me on ignore as I will do now with you.

Bye.

[chuck]

I don't have an agenda with you, Noe. I simply take issue with your stance that Lidge has been generally effective and has suffered one particularly bad outing. I watch virtually all the games, closely, and I have found him to have very, very poor control from Spring Training through his last outing. This has led to an insane number of baserunners through walks. If there are lots of runners on base it hurts when a batter hits a good pitch. Which happens.

The ironic thing is that you and I seem to want the same thing with Lidge - keep running him out there for more work and have the team re-evaluate where he stands in June or so.

[Noe]

I don't have an agenda with you, Noe.

Please, put me on ignore... *NOW*!

I simply take issue with your stance that Lidge has been generally effective and has suffered one particularly bad outing. I watch virtually all the games, closely, and I have found him to have very, very poor control from Spring Training through his last outing. This has led to an insane number of baserunners through walks. If there are lots of runners on base it hurts when a batter hits a good pitch. Which happens.

So what?  Doesn't matter to me since you changed what I said any way ("Lidge is being criticized for only one bad outing"... I said no such thing and you know it).  So put me on ignore now since that will help you not read my "off the wall" or "patently false and absurd" comments (Garner thinks it is false and absurd too I guess, of course he's lying too).  You didn't want to counter my observation with yours, you wanted to shoot the messenger.  Fine, one messenger shot.  Now move fucking on.

The ironic thing is that you and I seem to want the same thing with Lidge - keep running him out there for more work and have the team re-evaluate where he stands in June or so.

I could care less at this point Chuck, you will not exist for me from now on.  And stick to your word: "If you want the last word, please take it."  My last word: put me on ignore and stop replying to me now pendejo.  We have nothing to talk about any more.  Folks like you make this forum not a whole lot of fun for me so please make yourself scarce to me from now on.

[Taras Bulba]

Noe throws down the "pendejo" card and the TZ is moving into midseason form nicely.

[pravata]

I said what I said based on what I've seen this year from Lidge.  That Garner sees the same thing is fine with me.  But what bothers me is that I can't say that in *this* forum for some reason.  Instead, it has been dismissed as some sort of pollyana, head in the sand talk by me.
...

Compelling as some may find arguements attributed to peyote, propaganda, and pendejos, we seem to have missed something fundamental in how the Astros are talking about Lidge. 

Noe and Garner know all about Lidge's statistics, is anyone unaware of his performance in 2005 and 2006?  What has been missed is that Garner, at least, is focused on Brad Lidge 2007.  The psychic power of a Pujols homerun is undeniable.  However there is another theory for Lidge's problems, the league has caught up with him.  It has been said that it is even harder to stay in the big leagues than it is to get to the big leagues.  Constant adjustment is what defines the professional athlete. 

Lidge is trying to make that adjustment now.  Several very interesting posts have been made in this thread about what that adjustment involves.  But the bottom line is that Lidge is not Lidge 2005, or Lidge 2006.  He is Brad Lidge, 3 good games, 1 bad game, and 2 more pitches last night.   That's it, that's how the Astros are evaluating Brad Lidge.   Whether you think this is propaganda is meaningless, this is not puffery from Garner.   He is explaining something very fundamental to the fans of the Astros.  Those that will listen at least.  I realize that the voices in some people's heads are more compelling than reality.

The argument about what Lidge is being paid is also not relevant.  The Astros had 2 choices in the off season, trade him or resign him.  They probably inquired about trades.  The CBA is very strict about how contracts for players under team control can be structured.  Alyson Footer explained in detail what happened with Lidge's contract.  Going over and over, and over, things that people seem to dismiss or merely forget about is tedious.  Lidge's contract has nothing to do with how the Astros have to use him in their bullpen.

[Dobro]

  Lidge's contract has nothing to do with how the Astros have to use him in their bullpen.

If it's determined that Lidge is most effective in middle relief, then why on earth would the Astros keep him around at $5M/yr.  Effective middle relief services can be had for a fraction of that.  Trade him to the Yankees, who don't understand this.

[Noe]

If it's determined that Lidge is most effective in middle relief, then why on earth would the Astros keep him around at $5M/yr.  Effective middle relief services can be had for a fraction of that.  Trade him to the Yankees, who don't understand this.

The 5 million is because of his years of being underpaid as the dominant reliever for the Astros and arguably for the whole league.  It kind of works that way for the major leagues sometimes.

[WulawHorn]

The 5 million is because of his years of being underpaid as the dominant reliever for the Astros and arguably for the whole league.  It kind of works that way for the major leagues sometimes.

Sure- Lidge was underpaid relative to what he deserved in years past- that doesn't mean the astros have to be the team to overpay him now.  I don't really know why I'm even engaging in that discussion, as for my purposes it is relatively inconsequential- it is a sunk cost, the roster has been built as it has been built, so now that the winter team building time is over it is more or less irrelevant

Pravata- I wasn't meaning to go Dick Justice on you, just saying that Gar has been less than truthful/forthright in making statements to the press- call it subterfuge if you like. He has an agenda (to push his players buttons- be it by stroking or criticizing) and I don't count on him being totally truthful at all times.

Just saying I always take what he says with a huge grain of salt (i.e Lidge is my closer and has  long leash, and then changes that not but 1 week and 1 blown save later).

You always like to tell us to watch what they do- what phil has done is yank his closer's job, put him into less stressful situations, and then yank him more or less at the first sign that what he's doing could cost the astros a game.

What was Sunday all about with Brad's 2 pitch outing.  Was he only supposed to pitch to 1 guy? Was Gar disgusted with his two pitches?  Did Gar just not want to risk starting the merry go round again?

What I did find interesting was the Phil was appraently still managing to win, down 4, with only one more AB left. I was very surprised at this.  Gar obviously knows more than me as I thought the game was over even before they got out of the 8th unscathed, and then they almost go win it in the 9th after doing absolutely NOTHING all game long (offensively anyway).   This team is a different (and better) animal than the one last year, offensively at least. 

For that we should all be happy.

[pravata]

Sure- Lidge was underpaid relative to what he deserved in years past- that doesn't mean the astros have to be the team to overpay him now.  I don't really know why I'm even engaging in that discussion, as for my purposes it is relatively inconsequential- it is a sunk cost, the roster has been built as it has been built, so now that the winter team building time is over it is more or less irrelevant

Pravata- I wasn't meaning to go Dick Justice on you, just saying that Gar has been less than truthful/forthright in making statements to the press- call it subterfuge if you like. He has an agenda (to push his players buttons- be it by stroking or criticizing) and I don't count on him being totally truthful at all times.

Just saying I always take what he says with a huge grain of salt (i.e Lidge is my closer and has  long leash, and then changes that not but 1 week and 1 blown save later).

You always like to tell us to watch what they do- what phil has done is yank his closer's job, put him into less stressful situations, and then yank him more or less at the first sign that what he's doing could cost the astros a game.

What was Sunday all about with Brad's 2 pitch outing.  Was he only supposed to pitch to 1 guy? Was Gar disgusted with his two pitches?  Did Gar just not want to risk starting the merry go round again?

What I did find interesting was the Phil was appraently still managing to win, down 4, with only one more AB left. I was very surprised at this.  Gar obviously knows more than me as I thought the game was over even before they got out of the 8th unscathed, and then they almost go win it in the 9th after doing absolutely NOTHING all game long (offensively anyway).   This team is a different (and better) animal than the one last year, offensively at least. 

For that we should all be happy.

Once they couldn't find a suitable trade, they had no choice but to "overpay" Lidge.  By being indiscriminatly skeptical of Garner and the media, you are missing a great deal of information that would explain some of these questions you have. 

As for Sunday, obviously, there was a bunch of left handers coming up.  Did you miss the three shots of the dugout with Wallace and Garner talking to Lidge?  I dont think he's at all confused about what happened.  And finally why are you surprised that Garner manages to win until the final out? 

[Noe]

Sure- Lidge was underpaid relative to what he deserved in years past- that doesn't mean the astros have to be the team to overpay him now.

He's under the club's control.  Unless he's damaged goods (like Wade Miller was), I doubt they were just going to release him.  That would be stupid.

I don't really know why I'm even engaging in that discussion, as for my purposes it is relatively inconsequential- it is a sunk cost, the roster has been built as it has been built, so now that the winter team building time is over it is more or less irrelevant

I have no idea what you're saying here.  Can you simplify this for me?

Pravata- I wasn't meaning to go Dick Justice on you, just saying that Gar has been less than truthful/forthright in making statements to the press- call it subterfuge if you like. He has an agenda (to push his players buttons- be it by stroking or criticizing) and I don't count on him being totally truthful at all times.

Just saying I always take what he says with a huge grain of salt (i.e Lidge is my closer and has  long leash, and then changes that not but 1 week and 1 blown save later).

But his take is very simple and not that unique.  Hence why it isn't a good idea to go Ollie Stone on *everything* he says.

You always like to tell us to watch what they do- what phil has done is yank his closer's job, put him into less stressful situations, and then yank him more or less at the first sign that what he's doing could cost the astros a game.

What was Sunday all about with Brad's 2 pitch outing.  Was he only supposed to pitch to 1 guy? Was Gar disgusted with his two pitches?  Did Gar just not want to risk starting the merry go round again?

If Garner told you, would you believe him?  That's the question more than the real issue.

What I did find interesting was the Phil was apparently still managing to win, down 4, with only one more AB left. I was very surprised at this.  Gar obviously knows more than me as I thought the game was over even before they got out of the 8th unscathed, and then they almost go win it in the 9th after doing absolutely NOTHING all game long (offensively anyway).   This team is a different (and better) animal than the one last year, offensively at least. 

For that we should all be happy.

I think it wise for all of us (fans) to understand eggszactly how limited we are with information that a manager is privy too.  The "Oswalt nees to pitch on three days rest in order to go home to Mississippi" scene of a few days back is a prime example.  I don't know anything (and I am not being modest here, I fully admit to guessing all the time), but maybe Lidge asked to go one batter to see if he could help the team today.  Usually, a manager and pitching coach will take inventory before a game with relievers and ask them how much they can go that day.  Some will say honestly that they need to rest, but if needed, they can go one batter or one inning.  Some will always say "I'm good, if you need me".  It's up to the manager to decide how he's going to use the pen.

Why he pulled Lidge yesterday and not on Friday is his own reasons.  Homer outlined a very good reason Garner may of pulled Lidge on Sunday in the GZ.  So there is no need to think conspiracy all the time with Scraps.  It may be a very simple reason that is the best.  Occam's razor sort of thing.

[Noe]

Did you miss the three shots of the dugout with Wallace and Garner talking to Lidge?  I dont think he's at all confused about what happened. 

The truth, yes... in Austin we certainly did *miss* those shots!  Waaaaahhhhhhhhh!

[pravata]

The truth, yes... in Austin we certainly did *miss* those shots!  Waaaaahhhhhhhhh!

Someone else said Lidge was talking to Woody.  I thought it was Wallace, but they were talking quite a bit.  Then later they show Garner patting Lidge on the leg, talking, Lidge is nodding and looking at him. Not looking away or seeming to try to ignore him.  Brown and JD made no comment on these shots, Jamie Hildreth(?) was trying to start something though.

[WulawHorn]

Once they couldn't find a suitable trade, they had no choice but to "overpay" Lidge.  By being indiscriminatly skeptical of Garner and the media, you are missing a great deal of information that would explain some of these questions you have. 

As for Sunday, obviously, there was a bunch of left handers coming up.  Did you miss the three shots of the dugout with Wallace and Garner talking to Lidge?  I dont think he's at all confused about what happened.  And finally why are you surprised that Garner manages to win until the final out? 

I didn't say Lidge was confused, I said that I was confused.  What is your take on it, and/or what was Gar's take on it.  

I was watching the game TIVO style as I had to take my wife to the Museam of Fine Arts French Masters exhibit (very good by the way-and I am not at all an art afficionada) soon and was more or less buzzing through it, watching only the pitches and nothing in between

As to being surprised Garner was managing to the final out, please, do not tell me, that managers always do this. Tons of managers talk about how it is inevitable you are going to win at least 50 games and lose at least 50 games, and they use those games to get guys work or prepare them for later in the season on the tossup games.  This is why you see guys coming out of a blowout, or guys getting work, regardless of the sitaution, or guys not available, regardless of the situation etc.  I just thought that down four, with one ab left, when the team had been abysmal offensively up to that point (3 hits and 12 batters set down in a row and 9 batters set down in a row with two different streaks) that this might have been a game he mailed in, and said screw it let's get Brad some work to see if we can't get him right.  Maybe what he was really saying was screw it, I need to get Miller some work.

[Noe]

Someone else said Lidge was talking to Woody.  I thought it was Wallace, but they were talking quite a bit.  Then later they show Garner patting Lidge on the leg, talking, Lidge is nodding and looking at him. Not looking away or seeming to try to ignore him.  Brown and JD made no comment on these shots, Jamie Hildreth(?) was trying to start something though.

One batter then pulled is pretty much a reliever specialist.  Think Pedro Bourbon of a few years back.  Or Trever Miller nowadays.  I remember when Mike Gallo was complaining that he just didn't get more work as a reliever because he was told he was a lefty specialist for the team.  He was told he couldn't get righties out so his role was well defined for now.

I think perhaps they may be telling Lidge that for now, he'll be a righty specialist to go with Miller and he should just get used to this role for the time being.  Money be damned, if this will help him get his confidence back, then do it.  The irony is that this year Lidge is getting leftys out better than he is rightys... which also may be the reason they want to get him work pitching to rightys to straigthen some things out.  Who really knows at this point though.

It is quite a fall from the days that Lidge could be counted on to give you three innings of relief work and shut an entire team down.  Those days may be over.  However, I don't know if he'll stay a righty specialist long either.  It may be what Wallace and Garner thinks will work to build back confidence for Lidge.  Stuff-wise, other than Friday night when he couldn't throw strikes with his fastball, Lidge hasn't been way off this year.  This may just be the start of what they want to try with Lidge and then progress to another hurdle later in the season and then progress from there.

In an semi-related note: Chad Qualls is a monster right now and if I were a betting man (and I'm not), I would say he's going to be my closer when all is said and done and Wheeler will go back to setup man.  May also mean some looksee for Borkowski as a setup man for the seventh inning along with Rick White.  Both are valuable because they can go two innings each.  Moehler will probably figure into that mix as well.  Lidge just may have to get used to this role for a few months to help this team win some ballgames, which is what this is all about any way.

[pravata]

I didn't say Lidge was confused, I said that I was confused.  What is your take on it, and/or what was Gar's take on it.  

I was watching the game TIVO style as I had to take my wife to the Museam of Fine Arts French Masters exhibit (very good by the way-and I am not at all an art afficionada) soon and was more or less buzzing through it, watching only the pitches and nothing in between

As to being surprised Garner was managing to the final out, please, do not tell me, that managers always do this. Tons of managers talk about how it is inevitable you are going to win at least 50 games and lose at least 50 games, and they use those games to get guys work or prepare them for later in the season on the tossup games.  This is why you see guys coming out of a blowout, or guys getting work, regardless of the sitaution, or guys not available, regardless of the situation etc.  I just thought that down four, with one ab left, when the team had been abysmal offensively up to that point (3 hits and 12 batters set down in a row and 9 batters set down in a row with two different streaks) that this might have been a game he mailed in, and said screw it let's get Brad some work to see if we can't get him right.  Maybe what he was really saying was screw it, I need to get Miller some work.

The Astros have scored most of their runs in the later innings this season.  They've just recently had a couple 5 run 8ths.  Give up?  Not likely, they've even changed their 07 slogan, it's now "Astros 2007 - better stay through the 9th, fuckers."  As for Lidge, lefthanders, that's all it was.   Why have Trever Miller if they don't use him?   I havent seen anything from Garner on that.  He's on record as saying they should probably not talk about Lidge so much. 

[Bench]

  I remember when Mike Gallo was complaining that he just didn't get more work as a reliever because he was told he was a lefty specialist for the team.  He was told he couldn't get righties out so his role was well defined for now.

You see, managers do lie. Gallo couldn't get anybody out.

[Noe]

I didn't say Lidge was confused, I said that I was confused.  What is your take on it, and/or what was Gar's take on it. 

I was watching the game TIVO style as I had to take my wife to the Museam of Fine Arts French Masters exhibit (very good by the way-and I am not at all an art afficionada) soon and was more or less buzzing through it, watching only the pitches and nothing in between

As to being surprised Garner was managing to the final out, please, do not tell me, that managers always do this. Tons of managers talk about how it is inevitable you are going to win at least 50 games and lose at least 50 games, and they use those games to get guys work or prepare them for later in the season on the tossup games.  This is why you see guys coming out of a blowout, or guys getting work, regardless of the sitaution, or guys not available, regardless of the situation etc.  I just thought that down four, with one ab left, when the team had been abysmal offensively up to that point (3 hits and 12 batters set down in a row and 9 batters set down in a row with two different streaks) that this might have been a game he mailed in, and said screw it let's get Brad some work to see if we can't get him right.  Maybe what he was really saying was screw it, I need to get Miller some work.

I say go with whatever you're comfortable with and live with it.  It's all you can do at this point.

[WulawHorn]

He's under the club's control.  Unless he's damaged goods (like Wade Miller was), I doubt they were just going to release him.  That would be stupid.

Teams (at least 3 or 4 years ago when we saw salaries staying static for a time) often non-tendered guys that they didn't want to give a raise to (see Reese, Pokey) and some others of that time period. Given that Lidge had and still has some value releasing him would be stupid, you are right.  I understand the entire club control angle.

I have no idea what you're saying here.  Can you simplify this for me?

What I was saying here was that once the season starts it doesn't matter how much you pay a guy. Before the season, as you are working within a budget, it is important.  Afterwards, when you have assembled your team it is irrelevant (i.e. a sunk cost is his salary once you've signed him up to it).

But his take is very simple and not that unique.  Hence why it isn't a good idea to go Ollie Stone on *everything* he says.

If Garner told you, would you believe him?  That's the question more than the real issue.

Generally I take Gar at his word. Some things just stand out as being head scratchers. I also look at his actions to see if they generally seem to match his words.  Lamb comes out late innings defensively, and Burke moves around sometimes late (to second base) so I call bullshit (more or less) on him talking those two guys up defensively.  I'd probably believe what he said about Lidge, unless his actions didn't jive with his words.

I think it wise for all of us (fans) to understand eggszactly how limited we are with information that a manager is privy too.  The "Oswalt nees to pitch on three days rest in order to go home to Mississippi" scene of a few days back is a prime example.  I don't know anything (and I am not being modest here, I fully admit to guessing all the time), but maybe Lidge asked to go one batter to see if he could help the team today.  Usually, a manager and pitching coach will take inventory before a game with relievers and ask them how much they can go that day.  Some will say honestly that they need to rest, but if needed, they can go one batter or one inning.  Some will always say "I'm good, if you need me".  It's up to the manager to decide how he's going to use the pen.

Why he pulled Lidge yesterday and not on Friday is his own reasons.  Homer outlined a very good reason Garner may of pulled Lidge on Sunday in the GZ.  So there is no need to think conspiracy all the time with Scraps.  It may be a very simple reason that is the best.  Occam's razor sort of thing.

I buy indto Oscam's razor- I really do get that. I'm not trying to go all conspiracy theory or anything- I'm honestly asking.

[Noe]

You see, managers do lie. Gallo couldn't get anybody out.

That was in 2005 when he did a decent enough job.  In 2006, he sulked and got worse.  So much so, he couldn't even perform a simple task of throwing four intentional balls to a Pirate hitter in extra innings and that cost the team a game.  When you let your teammates down like that because you're sulking, you deserve to be booted off the team like he was.

It's not entirely about being bad or having bad results.  It's when you quit on your team that makes you a bad teammate and one the others do not want around.  No one is saying Lidge is that bad yet.  Time will tell if he is.

(and I know you weren't either, you were making a funny about Gallo, but I thought it would be a good way to say what I did regardless).

[Noe]

I buy indto Oscam's razor- I really do get that. I'm not trying to go all conspiracy theory or anything- I'm honestly asking.

Asking Phil or us?  We don't really know and you don't trust Phil, so what's your other option for occam's razor?  Trust what you think and go with it.

[Mr. Happy]

The gy's good stuff. It is still only April. Lighten up. Make him a set up man for awhile.

[WulawHorn]

I was in Georgia watching my buddy's team last weekend.

They lost a game exactly as Gallo did on an intentional walk in extra innings (only the 10th inning this time). That was after they blew a 3 run lead in the top of the 9th.  Not a fun evening. I suggested to his new wife that they should get a dog, b/c something needs kicking after a game like that. She was horrified until I told her that I was only joking (sort of).  She made him go out for his 30th b-day afterwards to a club with her friends. I felt kinda sorry for him b/c he obviously wasn't into it after that kind of rip your guts out loss.

[WulawHorn]

Asking Phil or us?  We don't really know and you don't trust Phil, so what's your other option for occam's razor?  Trust what you think and go with it.

In general that the simplest explanation is genrally the best explanation. Asking other's for their opinions. Absolutely willing to listen to Gar's thoughts, but not from a standpoint that he is necessarily going to say what is on his mind.

My buddy that I was talking about that is the head assistant ripped some guys to me (that's what he was thinking about them at the time) but he was generally positive to them and upbeat, b/c he thought that was what those guys needed to hear to play better.

[Noe]

In general that the simplest explanation is genrally the best explanation. Asking other's for their opinions. Absolutely willing to listen to Gar's thoughts, but not from a standpoint that he is necessarily going to say what is on his mind.

Then you're back to square one.  We don't know, Garner isn't necessarily going to say what is on his mind.   What to do?  Trust what you think.  You'll sleep better that way.

[WulawHorn]

I guess the thing is I wouldn't be asking the question if I knew what to think. I don't know what Sunday's outing was all about.  I don't know what to think about the entire lidge scenario (other than that I hope the astros can trade him- as mentioned earlier- b/c I think the city has turned on him and he needs to get out and go someplace else, if for nobody other than himself).

[pravata]

I guess the thing is I wouldn't be asking the question if I knew what to think. I don't know what Sunday's outing was all about.  ...

Asked and answered.  You don't understand the answer or is it that you don't believe the answer?

[chuck]

Someone else said Lidge was talking to Woody.  I thought it was Wallace, but they were talking quite a bit.  Then later they show Garner patting Lidge on the leg, talking, Lidge is nodding and looking at him. Not looking away or seeming to try to ignore him.  Brown and JD made no comment on these shots, Jamie Hildreth(?) was trying to start something though.

I was watching the Milwaukee feed. After Brad got pulled they showed a surprisingly long shot of Brad sitting on the bench talking calmly with someone I first took to be Wallace. He had his back to the camera. When Brad's partner in conversation turned for a moment to face the game I saw it was Woody.

[WulawHorn]

Asked and answered.  You don't understand the answer or is it that you don't believe the answer?

Sorry- I was referring to before the answer.  Lidge saying he had one batter in him makes sense to me. Was Gar quored on the subject?

[pravata]

Sorry- I was referring to before the answer.  Lidge saying he had one batter in him makes sense to me. Was Gar quored on the subject?

Sorry I missed this, where do we have Lidge commenting on Sunday?  I havent seen anything from Garner.

[WulawHorn]

No- the one batter thing on lidge was Noe speculation- that he told gar he had/wanted one batter for sunday- or that was the plan regardless.

Sorry for the miscommunication. I'm understanding what was said earlier. Ignore me and move on (but not forever like Noe wants from chuck 

[pravata]

No- the one batter thing on lidge was Noe speculation- that he told gar he had/wanted one batter for sunday- or that was the plan regardless.

Sorry for the miscommunication. I'm understanding what was said earlier. Ignore me and move on (but not forever like Noe wants from chuck 

Noe?  He's hopped up on peyote.

[Noe]

Noe?  He's hopped up on peyote.

Yes.  Yes he is.  And he doesn't know squat either!

[pravata]

Yes.  Yes he is.  And he doesn't know squat either!

I heard squatting was the one thing he did know, or used to.

[Noe]

I heard squatting was the one thing he did know, or used to.

Means nothing.  Anyone can squat.  It's standing back up that is important.  Sorta like it's easier to make the big leagues than it is to stay there kind of thingy.