Author Topic: black baseball players. etc.  (Read 16026 times)

Houston

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black baseball players. etc.
« on: April 09, 2007, 07:14:56 am »
ESPN had an interesting report last night about how participation among black baseball players (college and below) is almost non-existent these days. I know we had talked about this from a fans' perspective a while ago, but my question now is this -- How do we get more black kids involved in this great game? Less specifically, how to East Coasters get kids of all races involved in baseball in greater numbers when lacrosse is so dominant?

A little background for those who don't know me. I'm black and a lifelong baseball fan and former player, who grew up in Houston and now live in Baltimore because of a job. I am managing my son's 8-9 Little League team this year and enrollment in our league is down from 6 teams to 4.

My son played soccer last fall for the first time and was very good at it. While watching his games, I noticed a lot of kids I hadn't seen during baseball season. Because it's the same sports league, many kids go from one sport to another because their parents want to keep them occupied, but for some reason, it doesn't seem to have the same carryover for baseball.  That saddens me because there is no greater game than baseball.

What will it take to get kids involved in baseball again, especially black kids? Just because you're not black doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on this. Finally, on Jackie Robinson Day, why can't white players wear Number 42? What Robinson did in 1947 made America better for everyone, not just black athletes.

Feedback appreciated...
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ValpoCory

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2007, 11:13:55 am »
why can't white players wear Number 42?

Jeff Kent will be wearing #42 on April 15th.

Bench

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2007, 11:20:43 am »
Jeff Kent will be wearing #42 on April 15th.

I imagine you know this and are being sarcastic, but the entire Dodger team will be wearing 42. I don't think that is the issue Houston was referring to.
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007, 12:06:54 pm »
This is a very interesting topic to me and I'm afraid it has almost nothing to do with the skills of the sport, but rather has everything to do with what the economists call time preference.    That is, the sports that you see kids playing these days are more of an immediate feedback sort of sport rather than the cerebral experience of baseball, even at a young age.  I do have to say though that throwing a baseball is a much more involved skill than running and kicking so that may be part of it too.  Also, as strosrays pointed out in his excellent Series Preview, there's an awful lot of standing around in baseball and young boys just aren't inclined to do this. 

As a general rule in society today, we want everything now and rarely are we willing to give up the now for a future benefit.   This impacts the kids' parents more than it does the kids (kids are completely in the now) and I wonder just how much of it is the parents being unable to sit through a game.

I guess I strongly suspect that it's the parents who are keeping their kids out of baseball, not the kids themselves.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007, 12:16:31 pm »
ESPN had an interesting report last night about how participation among black baseball players (college and below) is almost non-existent these days. I know we had talked about this from a fans' perspective a while ago, but my question now is this -- How do we get more black kids involved in this great game? Less specifically, how to East Coasters get kids of all races involved in baseball in greater numbers when lacrosse is so dominant?

A little background for those who don't know me. I'm black and a lifelong baseball fan and former player, who grew up in Houston and now live in Baltimore because of a job. I am managing my son's 8-9 Little League team this year and enrollment in our league is down from 6 teams to 4.

My son played soccer last fall for the first time and was very good at it. While watching his games, I noticed a lot of kids I hadn't seen during baseball season. Because it's the same sports league, many kids go from one sport to another because their parents want to keep them occupied, but for some reason, it doesn't seem to have the same carryover for baseball.  That saddens me because there is no greater game than baseball.

What will it take to get kids involved in baseball again, especially black kids? Just because you're not black doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on this. Finally, on Jackie Robinson Day, why can't white players wear Number 42? What Robinson did in 1947 made America better for everyone, not just black athletes.

Feedback appreciated...

There is a convergence of reasons why I think this is happening:

1. Other sports have caught the interest of young players and especially in the urban areas  of major cities.  Basketball and football have a much more stronger appeal to the urban settings nowadays than does baseball.  It is easier for a pickup game of basketball to be played by six kids in an urban setting (three on three) than it is to play any sort of baseball related activity.

2. Fathers are extremely busy nowadays, so it isn't what it used to be in terms of going out and just throwing a baseball any more with good ol' dad.  I am a father of two young boys, one has a unique desire to throw and play baseball with me in the backyard every day if I were just not busy so much.  The other could care less, he has a desire to read his books and that is about it.  The song "Cat's In The Cradle" has some meaning in it to me.

3. Urban settings tend to see less father figures in the lives of young men than in suburban settings.  It effects the community in the Hispanic or African American community in terms of role models and active adult participation and involvement.  However, there has been more and more a trending towards more father involvement in all communities, be it urban or suburban.  I think it's generational, but it has been an effect that is a slow move or turnaround from the recent past.

I coach my son's baseball team.  I have one girl who plays for me, five hispanic kids (including my son) and three white kids, all of which were assigned to me to coach.  I have seen more black kids getting enrolled in the game though.  It is a slow but steady climb upwards in the suburban areas, and still needs more work in the urban areas.  I will take a lot smarter people than me to work all the areas that have driven the game itself into a less than popular status in the urban communities.  It used to be that my friends and I would ride our bicycles to Settegast Park in second ward every day during summer and play baseball or a baseball related game.  We would spend hours playing.  The movie sandlot was pretty much a mirror of how I grew up.  All the men in our community were also keenly involved in teaching us the game.  Jesse was my coach for much of my little league experience (I never knew his last name).  My dad would help Jesse coach and so would a lot of different men in the community.  We would also play at the Ripley Center, where we would be provided all sorts of events that were baseball related to play.  The parks where we hung out also had basketball courts, but none of us were that interested in it other than to play just to do something in-between not playing baseball.  Plus, there were no men in our lives who knew the game of basketball well enough to teach us to play.

So I think in the African American community it will take the slow turn towards involvement of parents, especially the father figures, the resources to make the game viable in the urban settings and also the desire to just play the game by the kids themselves in harmony to change the landscape of black involvement in baseball.  I watched Carl Crawford grow up in the near Northside of town, right on the other side of where I lived.  He went to Jeff Davis High School at the same time my youngest brother was playing for Reagan High.  I noticed that Crawford was playing on a predominently all Hispanic team at Davis.  He was good, real good and he could do what no other ballplayer on the team could do... easily.  I remember the pick up games at Moody Park on week nights too, often times just a bunch of denial league wannabes practicing with Davis or Reagan or other high school kids.  I also played with several kids who grew up near the McGregor Park area.  They had the same sort of support system by parents, especially fathers, to get out and play the game.  Those kids were good.  I enjoyed playing ball with them in the denial leagues as well, some on the same team, and some on opposing teams.  Either way, those guys were awesome.  The passion for the game in those guys was no different than any other kid I played with, so it's there.  McGregor Park is the practice and also playing field for TSU, so a handful of folks in that area still try to support baseball in that urban setting.

I think there will come a day when it will all come back again for urban settings, be it Hispanic or African American when it comes to just playing baseball for the shear enjoyment of it all.  Hot dogs, frito pies, sno-cones, little league tournaments were all the norm for a good long while at Settegast Park and then somehow it all went away.  It will come back and I was glad to hear Milo interviewing a guy from Minute Maid that was asking for applications to come in for the company and Astros in Action to go out and fix the fields up again so kids can play.  Settegast Park, my old stomping grounds when I was a kid was the first field they fixed.

EasTexAstro

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007, 12:18:39 pm »
Baseball isn't a very portable sport, either.

Basketball: you get a kid, a ball, and he can bounce it. Set up/find a hoop, he can take shots, layups, dribble. Someone comes along, you got a game.

Soccer isn't much different. A ball, a couple of kids, and a place to kick the ball back and forth.

Football gets better with a few extra kids, but still pretty simple to find an empty lot. Some kids can get in it late after concentrating on track, basketball, or soccer when they are younger.

Baseball is a huge commitment. You need at least a little equipment, gloves, a ball, a bat, and at least a few kids on each team. The game doesn't really translate well to music videos. The pace is just slow for the kids today.
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ValpoCory

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007, 12:40:27 pm »
Garret Anderson ... very mature.  It's not surprising that he didn't go to college.

http://www.aolsportsblog.com/2007/04/06/garret-anderson-wont-wear-jackie-robinsons-number/

Matt

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007, 12:50:35 pm »
Wow that's an odd thing for GA to say.  I've never seen him or heard of him coming off like a prick as long as I've been living here in Orange County.

Noe

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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2007, 01:01:38 pm »
Baseball is a huge commitment. You need at least a little equipment, gloves, a ball, a bat, and at least a few kids on each team. The game doesn't really translate well to music videos. The pace is just slow for the kids today.

On a semi-related note, since I have a son who is slipping into the "second life" generation (he was bummed this morning because he got a notice by his gaming environment that he wasn't playing nice with others and because of that, he would be investigated).  "Second Life" kids are basically being told that their life is one of escape and not wanting to face the realities of this life.  The "second life" found in cyber communities is much more appealing, so they gravitate towards that and escape all functions in the real world.  Again, I have one son who doesn't care one iota about baseball and is into his books (he reads a ton!) and also his "second life" if you will.

He is only 13 years of age.

He and I have had more heart to heart conversations in the last few years than I ever had with my own dad.  Is it because I worry about him?  Partially.  Is it because my dad didn't worry about me?  Maybe, I don't really know.  I do know my son doesn't care about baseball that much, not playing it any way.  Could he?  He can hit a baseball well but he doesn't find the game too appealing so he doesn't care to play it.  Any way, we had a heart to heart talk this Saturday about his involvement in "second life" and I did the usual "get outside more, run around... why when I was your age...".  I get the roll of the eyes, and the "here is comes, the old "when I was your age, I walked 12 miles to school in the snow" speech!".  I laughed and so did he.  But we still talked.

I have had to read so many books in the "gamer" generation nowadays because they are the workforce of today and will be more so tomorrow.  Books like "Got Game" by John C. Beck have been good reads because it helps a person like myself understand this generation and how to tap into their interest and strengths.  Smart business adopts, or allows the paradigm shifts to happen without offering resistence and in many ways using it towards their advantage.  That is why, while a choo-choo at a ballpark is never going to be my cup of tea, I'm not the one that is causing the ground swell of a paradigm shift in the business side of baseball.  So choo-choos are good in that respect.  So reading books like "Got Game" helps me understand how to use the gamer mentality to get great productivity from them by tapping their strenghts rather than disavowing their interest as non-essential or misplaced.  Gamers or second lifers have a strong sense of mission, of teamwork or clearly set parameters to work within of clear direction of a sense of accomplishment before tackling the next project (level in games).  So the sports world is no different, however one word of caution when taking everything said about today's generation is made a truism:

http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail436.html

Quote
Then there are the places where random attributes are attributed to video games. Pg 121 asserts that gamers are more likely to argue that connecting with the right people is the best way to get things done. Supposedly, this attitude comes from games, though the percentages for gamers and non-gamers are both quite high. And they're high because society constantly pushes the idea of connections and networking, not because of some attribute inherent only in video games.

Oh and I also enjoyed the twin assumptions repeated through the book that imply that because gamers are so busy gaming, they have no time for traditional social interactions such as group sports, and that somehow gamers spend more time in solitary activity (games) than the "boomers". First, just because one plays video games doesn't automatically mean one doesn't play sports, or isn't in the band or the science club or any other activity. Second, there are plenty of people of all generations who spent lots of time either watching tv or reading, also solitary activities. I bet lots of boomers spent as much time watching TV as GenX and GenY do in gaming. And we have better hand-eye coordination to show for it.

So when you think about sports today and the interest levels for any ethnicity to participate, realize that the same paradigms exist across the board with all of the digital natives and thus it is a factor for involvement or lack thereof regardless.  Just another thing to consider.

Duke

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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2007, 01:09:27 pm »
Baseball isn't a very portable sport, either.

Basketball: you get a kid, a ball, and he can bounce it. Set up/find a hoop, he can take shots, layups, dribble. Someone comes along, you got a game.

Soccer isn't much different. A ball, a couple of kids, and a place to kick the ball back and forth.

Football gets better with a few extra kids, but still pretty simple to find an empty lot. Some kids can get in it late after concentrating on track, basketball, or soccer when they are younger.

Baseball is a huge commitment. You need at least a little equipment, gloves, a ball, a bat, and at least a few kids on each team. The game doesn't really translate well to music videos. The pace is just slow for the kids today.

I don't know about this.  I grew up playing with my brother and a wiffle ball and bat in my back yard in Austin. 

EasTexAstro

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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 01:17:03 pm »
I don't know about this.  I grew up playing with my brother and a wiffle ball and bat in my back yard in Austin. 

I remember playing cupball, too, using an old rolled up cup and our hands as bats.

Heck, there have been many times I played catch without a glove, just to play.

I know it is possible to improvise. I can't rememebr which player was talking about his home, or even which country (Latin American, I think) where they tied cardboard to their hands for stopping the ball. It just isn't as common in the US, anymore, fro kids to all gather each afternoon and figure out how to play baseball.
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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 01:25:40 pm »
"Baseball is a huge commitment. You need at least a little equipment, gloves, a ball, a bat, and at least a few kids on each team."

today, maybe, but not always so. ever hear of workup or flies 'n skinners? one does not have to play a real game to play baseball. it does not happen today, though. parents organize their childrens' lives so much that there is no time for generic play.
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Duke

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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 01:29:15 pm »
I remember playing cupball, too, using an old rolled up cup and our hands as bats.

Heck, there have been many times I played catch without a glove, just to play.

I know it is possible to improvise. I can't rememebr which player was talking about his home, or even which country (Latin American, I think) where they tied cardboard to their hands for stopping the ball. It just isn't as common in the US, anymore, fro kids to all gather each afternoon and figure out how to play baseball.

We did too!  If we didn't have room to bat, we played pickle.  It may not be as common but I watched my nephews trying to sneak dirt clod fastballs past a fence slat bat for a few hours after Easter supper yesterday.

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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2007, 01:32:15 pm »
"Baseball is a huge commitment. You need at least a little equipment, gloves, a ball, a bat, and at least a few kids on each team."

today, maybe, but not always so. ever hear of workup or flies 'n skinners? one does not have to play a real game to play baseball. it does not happen today, though. parents organize their childrens' lives so much that there is no time for generic play.

I'm guessing flies and skinners is the same as 500.   We'd also play home run derby on the little league fields on Braker lane.

Noe

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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007, 01:32:39 pm »
I can't rememebr which player was talking about his home, or even which country (Latin American, I think) where they tied cardboard to their hands for stopping the ball. It just isn't as common in the US, anymore, fro kids to all gather each afternoon and figure out how to play baseball.

Mariano Rivera.

I watched "Bad News Bears" on the Turner Classic channel (unedited).  I found myself thoroughly enjoying the movie because it was just that side of my own experience (I am of the "Sandlot" type of ballplayers, with the wool uniforms when we finally got some, but definitely the blue jeans and t-shirt, play every day variety of kid).  So the "Bad News Bears" movie bothered me though because I had forgotten how the "little league parent" or "little league coach" really had taken the fun out of the game for many.  When Vic Morrow slapped his son right there on the pitching mound, I felt the sting of it.  I knew many parents of little leaguers who were just like Morrow's character... also Coach Buttermaker's morphed misquided coach type.  From a louse, who did nothing for the kids, to an overbearing louse who was worse in many ways with his verbal abuse.  I never had that sort of experience, but I knew kids who did much later when I was a teen going into young adulthood.

Baseball just lost it's way for awhile.  I live just around the corner of a baseball little league mecca complex.  Kids who play in that environment are probably going to go very far, but that kid and parent better be prepared for the seriousness it takes in those environments.  Coaches, trainers, parents, even the kids are all about being mini-major leaguers.  I know one couple whose two sons are in that league and they are passionate about it all.  If they weren't, they were going to get flushed out of the league for sure.  It says something when both our families get together for dinner, my two boys and their two boys in tow... and the Dad for the the kids is on the cell phone getting minute by minute reports from the field on a game that two rival teams are playing so his sons can know who they have next in the tournament play they're in.  He was giving the reports to his sons real-time while we were trying to have adult conversations about any else.  I don't really blame him, they have to adapt to that league and not the other way around I suppose.

Parents needs to be involved in order for kids to play this game, that much is true.  But do parents know exactly how much they can control the league instead of the other way around.  Imagine that!

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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2007, 01:33:47 pm »
"Baseball is a huge commitment. You need at least a little equipment, gloves, a ball, a bat, and at least a few kids on each team."

today, maybe, but not always so. ever hear of workup or flies 'n skinners? one does not have to play a real game to play baseball. it does not happen today, though. parents organize their childrens' lives so much that there is no time for generic play.

if you didn't have arguments on which ghost runners were on which base, you were never a kid.
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BudGirl

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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2007, 01:34:13 pm »
parents organize their childrens' lives so much that there is no time for generic play.


Excellent.
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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2007, 01:48:11 pm »
If we didn't have room to bat, we played pickle.

There wasn't a day that went by that we didn't play pickle.  When we actually got to play baseball in a league game, the kids in my neighborhood were excellent at throwing the ball correctly, accurately and to the right base all the time.

I'm trying hard to teach my team this very principle of paying a ton of attention to throwing the baseball, but to also throw to the right base as much as possible.  It happens at every practice that while I am teaching them accuracy drills, most of them will whine "Can we bat noooooowwwww, coach?"

This week, I intend to run a pickle drill with them and that should go over well with them. :)

Although my kids are catching on pretty quickly that I intend to teach at this age level and we will learn accuracy in throwing.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 01:52:25 pm by Noe in Austin »

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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2007, 01:50:06 pm »
Noe, I too have one who loves books and one who loves sports. 

My son who loves sports is on two baseball teams.  A traveling coach pitch team and a rec league machine pitch team.  The competition is so much better in the traveling teams but it is also expensive.  You have to be able to afford it and have the time commitment to do the fund raisers and such.  Many kids who play travel ball don't play rec ball which then waters down the talent in rec ball.  You play against weaker talent and you don't improve.  I struggle with keeping all of this in balance for my 7 year old son.  I also encourage other interest so that he doesn't see success only as a baseball thing.

I was off today and my son had a teachers work day.  He wanted to go hit off the machine.  He hasn't mastered it yet and he wanted more time with it before his next practice.  He made huge progress today.  That progress couldn't have happened without my ability to take a day off (not all jobs allow that), my willingness to spend time at the field with him and having a town that allows coaches to check out keys to the machines to parents. 

Jim, I think you are right about parents over scheduling kids.  We have the neighborhood wiffle ball field next to our house.  I am glad that kids from middle school down to 1st grade get together and play.  The skills they learn at making it fair so that everyone plays and has fun and solving their own problems are going to be vital in life.  Kids don't always have much unstructured time to let them make their own rules and solve their own problems. 
Always ready to go to a game.

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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2007, 03:04:38 pm »
When I was a kid, we played EVERYDAY after school with between 6-12 kids. All we used for equipment was a bat and a tennis ball. That way, you didn't need a glove. As I got a little older, we played "wall ball" with a Nerf baseball (which Nerf didn't make for very long), a bat, and a brick wall as the backstop. It only required a batter, a pitcher and at least one fielder.

As Jim R. said, we played the game because we wanted to. We didn't need our parents to organize every moment of our lives. We finished our homework and went out and played. When the street lights came on, we went home. This was in inner-city Houston in the 1970s and early 1980s. I wish things were that simple again.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby

Curly

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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2007, 03:36:50 pm »
On a side note, I noticed that there will be 0 Astros wearing "42", the only club besides the Braves.  Have they announced any other plans?

African-Americans in MLB, 2007 • Listed are the African-American players on each major league roster to start the 2007 season. List doesn't include players currently on the DL: TEAM PLAYERS Angels Garret Anderson
Howie Kendrick
Gary Matthews Jr.
Darren Oliver
Astros 0
A's Milton Bradley
Shannon Stewart
Blue Jays Royce Clayton
Frank Thomas
Vernon Wells
 Braves 0
Brewers Prince Fielder
Bill Hall
Tony Gwynn Jr.
Rickie Weeks
Cardinals Preston Wilson
Cubs Cliff Floyd
Jacque Jones
Derrek Lee
Daryle Ward
Devil Rays Carl Crawford
Elijah Dukes
Edwin Jackson
B.J. Upton
Delmon Young
D-Backs Tony Clark
Orlando Hudson
Chris Young
 Dodgers Marlon Anderson
Matt Kemp
Juan Pierre
Giants Barry Bonds
Ray Durham
Dave Roberts
Randy Winn
Indians C.C. Sabathia
Grady Sizemore
Mariners Jason Ellison
Arthur Rhodes
Marlins Dontrelle Willis
Mets Damion Easley
Lastings Milledge
Nationals Ray King
Jerome Williams
Dmitri Young
Orioles Freddie Bynum
Corey Patterson
Padres Mike Cameron
Terrmel Sledge
Phillies Michael Bourn
Tom Gordon
Ryan Howard
Jimmy Rollins
Pirates Ian Snell
Rangers Jerry Hairston Jr.
Kenny Lofton
Reds Ken Griffey Jr., Brandon Phillips
Red Sox Coco Crisp
Rockies LaTroy Hawkins
Royals Emil Brown
Reggie Sanders
Tigers Curtis Granderson
Craig Monroe
Gary Sheffield
Marcus Thames
Twins Torii Hunter
Rondell White
White Sox Jermaine Dye
Yankees Derek Jeter


Houston

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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2007, 03:48:37 pm »
I thought I heard that Carlos Lee will be wearing 42 during Sunday's game.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby

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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2007, 03:49:35 pm »
I thought I heard that Carlos Lee will be wearing 42 during Sunday's game.

You heard correctly.

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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2007, 03:55:02 pm »
Houston said: "As Jim R. said, we played the game because we wanted to. We didn't need our parents to organize every moment of our lives. We finished our homework and went out and played. When the street lights came on, we went home. This was in inner-city Houston in the 1970s and early 1980s. I wish things were that simple again."

It was the same for me.  We went home when it got too dark to see the ball or after mom's 3rd scream, whichever was later.  I grew up an army brat and this was universal in the 1970's.  In Virginia, Ohio, Kentucky, Colorado, Texas, etc..., in town and out in the country.

We played pickle and 3-man ball with ghost-runners galore but the game my brother and I exported all over the country was "Whack-It!".  Baseball played with a tennis racket and tennis ball on a cul-de-sac.  All the kids felt like Hank Aaron.  Home was at the cul-de-sac entrance, 2nd was at the top, the house yards were the outfield, between the houses were gappers and over the houses were home runs.
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2007, 04:13:35 pm »
In addition to what others have said about it being easier to play games like basketball or football by just picking up a ball.. I also think its a perpetuating cycle where many young black boys see ESPN and other media outlets glorifying the black stars of those sports.  Personally, I love baseball and obviously many of the guys on this board do also.. but in my opinion, football and basketball are more flashy/attractive to young kids.  So instead of having an idol like Ken Griffey Jr, Bonds, Dontrelle, etc... they are going to gravitate towards Kobe, LeBron, Vince Young.. take your pick.  So that makes them want to emulate those guys.  There aren't many black superstars in baseball now, so young kids just have fewer guys to look up to..=
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 04:16:13 pm by TheWizard44 »
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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2007, 04:18:47 pm »
I saw the piece last night also and was fascinated. One of the coaches made the point that among the kids he knew baseball was less popular than basketball and football, of course, but fourth in overall popularity behind video games(!). I have no idea why kids in general don't play baseball in stronger numbers. I suspect that the club team phenomenon prevalent in suburbia turns some kids off. The attitude I perceive of many of the parents centrally involved would have turned me off as a kid. I don't know why inner city kids aren't more attracted to the game.

All we needed was a bat and a tennis ball and we could have fun for hours playing in the street. We'd also have more organized games at the park. And, needless to say, we were at the Little League park six nights a week. When my teams weren't playing we were playing tennis ball baseball on the tennis courts or a loose game on an empty field or just throwing the ball around or who knows what.

I don't buy the argument that baseball requires too much equipment for poor kids to play. I travel through Latin America fairly often and have seen some very inventive kids. In Santo Domingo recently I saw some kids playing (in a cemetery, no less) with a fairly straight stick and a plastic lid like something off of a Pringles can. Those kids are going to grow up and be able to hit a curve ball, I'll tell you that much.
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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2007, 04:19:42 pm »
Noe, I too have one who loves books and one who loves sports. 

My son who loves sports is on two baseball teams.  A traveling coach pitch team and a rec league machine pitch team. 

a travel team for a coach pitch kid is borderline nuts. if he is 7, remove the borderline.
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2007, 04:21:05 pm »
On a side note, I noticed that there will be 0 Astros wearing "42", the only club besides the Braves.  Have they announced any other plans?

African-Americans in MLB, 2007 • Listed are the African-American players on each major league roster to start the 2007 season. List doesn't include players currently on the DL: TEAM PLAYERS
***
Indians C.C. Sabathia
Grady Sizemore
***

So Grady Sizemore is black? I always assumed he was, but then I finally saw him and saw some closeups for the first time and figured he was white: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7256

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2007, 04:28:23 pm »
This was in inner-city Houston in the 1970s and early 1980s. I wish things were that simple again.

I was in the decade ahead of you for playing in the inner city.  My brothers were of the same age/time as you and I would, as a teenager, oft times go out in the streets and play ball with them.  Playing pickle with my young brothers was fun, even though I was supposed to be a teenager who didn't care to be seen with his elementary school brothers and their friends.

I didn't care, this was street ball and it was fun!

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2007, 04:41:17 pm »
I thought I heard that Carlos Lee will be wearing 42 during Sunday's game.

And Cecil Cooper too.

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« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2007, 04:46:13 pm »
During the summer we would play with like 5 or 6 guys.  

You had either the left side of the field in play or the right side of the field in play.  You then had ghost runners and probably like an all time pitcher.

If everyone was playing to the left of 2b then anything to RF was foul- you couldn't foul out, you just kept hitting till you pulled it- or else right field.

All the baserunners were ghost runners. We didn't argue much about ghost runners b/c the rule was that you score from first on a double, or from second on a single, and you moved up one base more than was got by the hitter (so a single with ghost runners on 1st and 2nd netted one run, with new ghost runners on 1st and 2nd.  A double would always clear the bases.

Alot of times we used tennis balls and you recorded an out by pegging the baserunner, since we didn't have a first baseman. You could also throw the ball- and if it passed the bag on first it was an out, but if it was too far off line it was an error.  Had some arguments over whether or not the 1b would have been able to strech to make the play.

We really only did this during baseball season, in the summertime. Fall was for FB sandlot games, winter was for pick up basketball and spring was organized little league, leaving this as summer diversion.

We didn't do it every day, but probably 2 or 3 times a week. My little brother was only a year younger than me, so we usually only needed 3 other guys to play some kind of game.

It sucked having to chase pitches b/c we didn't have catcher.  Also chasing the throws to first after the play was over, or the attempt to peg the runner went off course.

It was fun, but I always liked organized ball, with real rules, a lot better.  The improv was more fun than not doing anything over the summer. I also read a ton.  Didn't get a video game till later in life, and once I did that I was living in Tejas, where it isn't much fun to be outside during the middle of the summer. Also, once we moved to the golf course house that's what I did all summer as I played golf in school and had quit playing baseball.  

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« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2007, 04:48:39 pm »
I was in the decade ahead of you for playing in the inner city.  My brothers were of the same age/time as you and I would, as a teenager, oft times go out in the streets and play ball with them.  Playing pickle with my young brothers was fun, even though I was supposed to be a teenager who didn't care to be seen with his elementary school brothers and their friends.

I didn't care, this was street ball and it was fun!

Pickle was always a fun game, but I sucked at it b/c I was very slow.

Also, usually in our street ball games we played workup, so there was only one hitter ever on offense (with ghost runners) and everyone else rotated each position accross the diamond until it was their turn to hit.


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« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2007, 04:51:40 pm »
I am in my late 20s. After a few years in little league my parents took me out of it because the costs of the local league had risen dramatically. We were just plain priced out of me being able to play. I think that has a lot to do with it, especially considering the aforementioned socioeconomics.

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« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2007, 04:51:52 pm »
On a side note, I noticed that there will be 0 Astros wearing "42", the only club besides the Braves.  Have they announced any other plans?

African-Americans in MLB, 2007 • Listed are the African-American players on each major league roster to start the 2007 season. List doesn't include players currently on the DL: TEAM PLAYERS Angels Garret Anderson
Howie Kendrick
Gary Matthews Jr.
Darren Oliver
Astros 0
A's Milton Bradley
Shannon Stewart
Blue Jays Royce Clayton
Frank Thomas
Vernon Wells
 Braves 0
Brewers Prince Fielder
Bill Hall
Tony Gwynn Jr.
Rickie Weeks
Cardinals Preston Wilson
Cubs Cliff Floyd
Jacque Jones
Derrek Lee
Daryle Ward
Devil Rays Carl Crawford
Elijah Dukes
Edwin Jackson
B.J. Upton
Delmon Young
D-Backs Tony Clark
Orlando Hudson
Chris Young
 Dodgers Marlon Anderson
Matt Kemp
Juan Pierre
Giants Barry Bonds
Ray Durham
Dave Roberts
Randy Winn
Indians C.C. Sabathia
Grady Sizemore
Mariners Jason Ellison
Arthur Rhodes
Marlins Dontrelle Willis
Mets Damion Easley
Lastings Milledge
Nationals Ray King
Jerome Williams
Dmitri Young
Orioles Freddie Bynum
Corey Patterson
Padres Mike Cameron
Terrmel Sledge
Phillies Michael Bourn
Tom Gordon
Ryan Howard
Jimmy Rollins
Pirates Ian Snell
Rangers Jerry Hairston Jr.
Kenny Lofton
Reds Ken Griffey Jr., Brandon Phillips
Red Sox Coco Crisp
Rockies LaTroy Hawkins
Royals Emil Brown
Reggie Sanders
Tigers Curtis Granderson
Craig Monroe
Gary Sheffield
Marcus Thames
Twins Torii Hunter
Rondell White
White Sox Jermaine Dye
Yankees Derek Jeter



Do you have a linke for this list?
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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2007, 04:52:46 pm »
Pickle was always a fun game, but I sucked at it b/c I was very slow.

Also, usually in our street ball games we played workup, so there was only one hitter ever on offense (with ghost runners) and everyone else rotated each position accross the diamond until it was their turn to hit.


We did exactly the same thing, often playing with 5 or so kids.   The other diversion was stickball with a tennis ball and a broom stick.  One pitcher, one fielder and one batter.  Ghost runners and throwing the ball at the runner for the out.  Home runs were balls landing on the roof of the house at the end of the cul-de-sac.  Lots of fun playing park league and pickup games growing up.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2007, 04:54:39 pm »
I am in my late 20s. After a few years in little league my parents took me out of it because the costs of the local league had risen dramatically. We were just plain priced out of me being able to play. I think that has a lot to do with it, especially considering the aforementioned socioeconomics.

regular LL is not expensive at all. it is the travel "select" teams that bleed gullible parents dry.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 05:03:20 pm by Jim R »
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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2007, 04:58:05 pm »
regular LL is not expensive at all. it is the travel "select" teams that beed gullible parents dry.

This was the only league available. It was the public local league. I don't know what travel "select" teams are, but I don't think it was one of those, as we didn't travel anywhere.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2007, 05:01:52 pm »
This was the only league available. It was the public local league. I don't know what travel "select" teams are, but I don't think it was one of those, as we didn't travel anywhere.

i cannot imagine what large expenses there would be in joining a regular LL. i never heard of anyone being turned away, either, if cost was a factor. of course, bats and gloves are expensive, but not signing up for regular LL.
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JSAstrosFan

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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2007, 05:05:54 pm »
i cannot imagine what large expenses there would be in joining a regular LL. i never heard of anyone being turned away, either, if cost was a factor. of course, bats and gloves are expensive, but not signing up for regular LL.

My parents, 14 years ago living paycheck to paycheck, could not afford $130 for the season. That doesn't seem like much now, but it was a lot then. I would bet it's gone way up since then. Perhaps it's just the area, but my parents weren't all that well off. It had to do with uniforms, paying umpires, etc. I was just a kid, so I don't know more details than that. Maybe it was a special league somehow.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2007, 05:07:57 pm »
My parents, 14 years ago living paycheck to paycheck, could not afford $130 for the season. That doesn't seem like much now, but it was a lot then. I would bet it's gone way up since then. Perhaps it's just the area, but my parents weren't all that well off. It had to do with uniforms, paying umpires, etc. I was just a kid, so I don't know more details than that. Maybe it was a special league somehow.

dunno re current costs. in the leagues i was involved in, a kid whose parents could not pay would have been allowed to play anyway.
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« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2007, 06:40:14 pm »
Funny that this topic should come up when SI had a article on this so recently. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/specials/spring_training/2007/03/14/sabathia.race.ap/index.html

  When I read this article I really didn't know what the answer was. There are so many ways to view this issue of falling participation by african-american kids in baseball. Is it an ethnic thing? Is it a cultural thing? Is it economic? Though there is a tendency to divide people into groups racially in the US is this really an accurate method of analysis when examining the issue at hand? Is a black inner city kid equivalent to a black middle class kid in terms of interests, economics, opportunities, peer groups, and availibility of safe areas for play? Probably not. I would suspect that race or ethnicity is less a factor than economics or location (inner city vs suburbs). I would venture to guess that, for instance, middle class kids of all races/ethnicities (or whatever other label you wish to apply) would have more in common with other middle class kids than with kids of the same race/ethnicity that live in areas that are more challenged economically.
  Working in an ER I see lots of kids with athletic injuries. I also work in an economically depressed part of town that is where "black", "mexican", and "white" areas of town converge. I see lots of poor kids participating in baseball (and other sports). But it seems that participation is more along the lines of kids who live in structured family units and those that do not. It seems (strictly from observation) that kids that live in households with both mother and father figures (whether they are blended families or not) seem to participate more in sports (and do so as a focus of family life) than those who do not. Where there seems to be a lack of participation is amongst those children who have a very loose, or in some cases nearly nonexistent, family structure. Often these kids have one custodial parent, may sleep in different places on consecutive nights (ie between parents' homes or grandparents') and often have various siblings with different parents than themselves. Their parents tend to be quite young and they often are the second or third generation with such a loose family structure. There really isn't any racial or ethnic division here. Family 'culture' seems to be a larger issue.
  I will say that basketball is played by huge numbers of kids (and by a lot of guys well into their twenties) and is usually done so informally (I can't count how many dislocated shoulders and ankle injuries I've seen amongst basketball players playing informally in the evening). This is also San Antonio so our only big-league franchise is a basketball franchise. Baseball and all other sports are usually played in structured leagues. Most of these are also school based leagues with the exception of baseball/softball, which of course has little leagues, and football which has its Pop Warner leagues. It does seem that the kids who come from less structured family units and play sports in organized leagues usually do so in school based leagues.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2007, 07:04:50 pm »
This is the most stupid topic I have ever seen.. and I’m tired of seeing this on ESPN

Either the person likes the sport or they don't.. why force a person to like baseball just because they are black? Every race has the same opportunity to like or dislike any sport..and the same opportunity to play little league, high school, and if they are good make it onto a college team.  This 'lack of African American players in baseball' is absolutely obsured.

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« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2007, 07:22:16 pm »
This is the most stupid topic I have ever seen.. and I’m tired of seeing this on ESPN

Either the person likes the sport or they don't.. why force a person to like baseball just because they are black? Every race has the same opportunity to like or dislike any sport..and the same opportunity to play little league, high school, and if they are good make it onto a college team.  This 'lack of African American players in baseball' is absolutely obsured.


  I don't believe that anyone here is advocating forcing anyone to do anything.  It is no secret that baseball is perceived by many American's as our "National Pasttime". It is a big part of our national life, history and identity. As such, many important figures in our history and our national life have been baseball players, many of them Americans of african descent. What the concern seems to be is that many fine athletes may overlook baseball as a sport to pursue. The result of this is that baseball (which clearly is something that is important to all of us here) will be much poorer for the loss of these individuals. Many of us do not wish to see this happen. So we are discussing how this can be averted.

  So what's the problem with us discussing this?

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« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2007, 07:29:37 pm »
As for me, I coach college soccer in Michigan; Houston, I have experienced
the same dynamic, but to a different degree (not so much from
a historical vantage point like with Jackie Robinson, but from a
participatory standpoint) Historically, soccer and the African American
community have not been synonmous.  I believe US Baseball and Soccer
have the same objective to capture and retain diverse populations from
other sports as African American participation drops off and I can offer what little insight I see:

1) Resources and Structures are important. As we move into a period
where privatization is taking holding and public space is diminishing in
our daily lives, (echoing other posts) the obstacles are greater for many
future baseball players than in previous decades, less space and money.
Fewer resources and less access is important, especially when travel baseball
has become increasingly price prohibitive.  I hypothesize that the money trail
for youth baseball is being culturally and structurally diverted.

2) Coaching & Teaching: I believe one of the only ways to reverse structural
and financial trends is to have older 'models' at every level of development (JRaup is better suited than me here to state specifics), but critical components
are teaching the love and the respect of the game by coaches and parents.  Stories are effective ways to do... the day Nolan threw his 5th no-hitter or Mike Scott clinching the division etc.  The speed and pacing at which todays youth operate: texting, computer speed, ipods, instant gratification is direct conflict in many cases with long stories of old baseball players.  I believe we have become
in some small way :"the disposable society".  So, if development is not happening in a certain segment of society, we should ask ourselves what has changed.  It seems to me that there is a monetary devaluing of teaching at youth levels and youth have less time and attention to engage an unknown disposable past.

3) Many other things I probably have not considered because of myopia


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Sambito

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2007, 07:38:34 pm »
This is the most stupid topic I have ever seen.. and I’m tired of seeing this on ESPN

Either the person likes the sport or they don't.. why force a person to like baseball just because they are black? Every race has the same opportunity to like or dislike any sport..and the same opportunity to play little league, high school, and if they are good make it onto a college team. 

Not true: participation is predicated on interest yes, but also resources and positive
structures allowing for growth. 


This 'lack of African American players in baseball' is absolutely obsured.

Am not clear what you meant here: absurd or obscured

If absurd.... I beg to differ.  From an economic standpoint, when marketing to different ethnic groups it is important to know what drives participation and connection.  From a
cultural standpoint it is important to recognize what barriers are in place preventing
or allowing (privileging) certain groups over others (especially when there has been
a noticeable decrease in African American players over the past decade(s).  From a personal perspective, the question seemed more than appropriate to ask considering
Houston has his view and is attempting to generate further understa
nding.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2007, 08:43:40 pm »
This is the most stupid topic I have ever seen.. and I’m tired of seeing this on ESPN

Either the person likes the sport or they don't.. why force a person to like baseball just because they are black? Every race has the same opportunity to like or dislike any sport..and the same opportunity to play little league, high school, and if they are good make it onto a college team.  This 'lack of African American players in baseball' is absolutely obsured.

You may want to get some glasses to fix your that near-sighted problem....
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« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2007, 09:14:42 pm »
So Grady Sizemore is black? I always assumed he was, but then I finally saw him and saw some closeups for the first time and figured he was white: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7256



 I'm guessing he's bi-racial, like Jeter, just not as obvious.
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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2007, 10:14:22 pm »
"Baseball is a huge commitment. You need at least a little equipment, gloves, a ball, a bat, and at least a few kids on each team."

today, maybe, but not always so. ever hear of workup or flies 'n skinners? one does not have to play a real game to play baseball. it does not happen today, though. parents organize their childrens' lives so much that there is no time for generic play.


If you could throw it and hit it with a stick, we had us a ballgame.  And many games were played with as few as two of us.  We had elaborate rules for how far the ghost runners could advance on a play, and we all followed them.  I doubt many kids today know what a ghost runner is.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2007, 10:18:25 pm »
regular LL is not expensive at all. it is the travel "select" teams that bleed gullible parents dry.


Unless it has changed recently, LL had a rule that no kid couldn't play because of an inability to pay.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2007, 10:19:32 pm »

If you could throw it and hit it with a stick, we had us a ballgame.  And many games were played with as few as two of us.  We had elaborate rules for how far the ghost runners could advance on a play, and we all followed them.  I doubt many kids today know what a ghost runner is.

If it wasn't for ghost runners, I never would have played a "game" during my youth.  It was just me, my brother, my best friend, and our ghost runners for the most part.  

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« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2007, 10:32:56 pm »

Unless it has changed recently, LL had a rule that no kid couldn't play because of an inability to pay.

No idea about that.  But I work with someone whose kids are playing baseball on select teams in South Houston.  They drive two hours to get to the fields they play on in Houston.  They have overnights in Beaumont.  The high school coaches are scouting these teams.  They have pitching and hitting coaches.  Playing in the street and knowing what a ghost runner is gets you no where.  This is now a serious business.  You have to be committed with time and money and the will to play the political game from the very beginning to get your kid on the high school team and then to have any chance to get to college ball.   I hope others have different experiences.   But it seems to me that playing sandlot ball from the time the dew dries to the street lights coming on, unless some coach is watching you, isnt going to get you in the game.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 10:36:52 pm by pravata »

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2007, 10:48:35 pm »
that kind of stuff does not get you on a HS team necessarily. my team had plenty of neighborhood league kids, and they played just as well as the select kids.
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« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2007, 11:16:48 pm »
No idea about that.  But I work with someone whose kids are playing baseball on select teams in South Houston.  They drive two hours to get to the fields they play on in Houston.  They have overnights in Beaumont.  The high school coaches are scouting these teams.  They have pitching and hitting coaches.  Playing in the street and knowing what a ghost runner is gets you no where.  This is now a serious business.  You have to be committed with time and money and the will to play the political game from the very beginning to get your kid on the high school team and then to have any chance to get to college ball.   I hope others have different experiences.   But it seems to me that playing sandlot ball from the time the dew dries to the street lights coming on, unless some coach is watching you, isnt going to get you in the game.

Decent Fort Worth Weekly article on Select Baseball:

http://www.fwweekly.com/content.asp?article=4708

Quote
They also point out that the costs of playing on such teams is so prohibitive that low-income families are shut out, and that many of the families that participate can do so only by having parents take on second jobs and by jeopardizing normal family time and attention that would otherwise be given to other kids.

Quote
Each year organizers tout hundreds of “national championship” events, increasing the pressure on the kids — and income for the organizers of what is fast becoming a new sports industry.

Quote
She doesn’t like to think about how much she has spent on baseball pursuits during Trey’s four years in select ball, but another parent estimated that the price tag, including travel expenses, is close to $10,000 a year — not including private lessons....

And yet, she believes it’s worthwhile, as an investment in Trey’s future, a path to a college scholarship or the pro’s. ...

Amy Ewing also refers to the extra baseball lessons as an investment. “After all of the time and money that we’ve invested, I think Trey will definitely have an advantage” when it comes to getting athletic scholarships, she said. “Trey is expecting to go into high school and play well, because he has put in so much time.” ...

.... a college savings fund would be a better investment than baseball lessons. ... “With the limited amount of experience that I’ve had hearing pro scouts talk, they will maybe sign one or two kids a year to a contract. The odds are very much against them to move up to the major-league level. From my experience, $10,000 a year would do much better in a college savings fund rather than a select league, unless you just have that kind of money. But at the same time, you should still be setting aside money for a college fund.”
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Sambito

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2007, 06:36:54 am »
or contributing to a Roth IRA
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Houston

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2007, 07:33:45 am »


Both of you are right on different levels. I think the idea of race is an arbitrary and generally useless one. What is called race is sometimes culture, sometimes it's nationality, sometimes it's language. So, one bi-racial person (Derek Jeter or my own kids, for that matter) is called African American for certain purposes, but Tony Parker isn't because he was born in France. Carlos Lee is Hispanic because he was born in a Spanish-speaking family, despite his Chinese last name and heritage. When a person has an Irish and a German parent, they're not forced to choose between those cultures, so I generally ignore racial catagories.

But my point this time has to be made using race because as one of you said (I think it was A-Rod), I want the best athletes playing baseball and too many of the best black athletes are playing other sports. So, I'm concerned about a lack of black baseball players because I want athletes playing baseball, not because I need to see players who look like me. I never had and never will be a racial bean-counter.

I think all of us would love to add Dontrelle Willis to the Astros' pitching staff, not because we think we lack black pitchers, but because we lack pitching depth and want someone who can help us win. That's my entire point here. Too many Dontrelles are opting for basketball and football and I want to do something about that, if possible.

Thanks for all the contributions to this thread. It has been respectful and enlightening.
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Outlawscotty

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« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2007, 07:38:38 am »
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Decent Fort Worth Weekly article on Select Baseball:

Absolutely absurd.  An investment?  More like a gamble.  These 'select leagues' are for the select few who love to play the political games within their communities and schools who think their child is the next A-Rod.  Driving from S.A. to Houston to Corpus to Crystal City to Laredo just to play a game/tournament is ridiculous for a family to be 'expected' to do.  Recruiting for High School is prohibited (or at least not in the best interest) from what I understand, and certainly should not be used to determine what school your child should receive his/her education.  You know, the education that will be needed when all that 'select baseball' doesn't pay off?  I love baseball more than anything, but I will not, and I have made it clear to my family, fall prey to the select leagues just because that is what the 'best' players are doing.  I call bullshit on the competition factors in Little League.  If you want to travel and make mini vacations with your time for baseball, then do it with the high school teams.   Prices for Little League this year for 9~12 year old leagues were $150.  You play at the same fields every game.  You sleep in your bed the same night.  You go to work/school the next day.  Your pocket might still have some money in it at the end of the week.  Your kid's head doesn't explode.  I just can't see it.

drew corleone

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2007, 09:50:28 am »
Quote
This is now a serious business.  You have to be committed with time and money and the will to play the political game from the very beginning to get your kid on the high school team and then to have any chance to get to college ball.   I hope others have different experiences.   But it seems to me that playing sandlot ball from the time the dew dries to the street lights coming on, unless some coach is watching you, isnt going to get you in the game.

Honest question: when did that become the norm? I'm not that old (been out of HS 12 years), and when I was in school maybe the best guys on the team played select ball, but it wasn't the majority, I don't think. We had a pretty good team, too.

Houston

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« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2007, 09:57:11 am »
Honest question: when did that become the norm? I'm not that old (been out of HS 12 years), and when I was in school maybe the best guys on the team played select ball, but it wasn't the majority, I don't think. We had a pretty good team, too.

In 1995, I knew a guy who's son played on a travel/select team. That was the first I ever heard of it.
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pravata

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« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2007, 10:39:50 am »
Honest question: when did that become the norm? I'm not that old (been out of HS 12 years), and when I was in school maybe the best guys on the team played select ball, but it wasn't the majority, I don't think. We had a pretty good team, too.

I dont know.  I havent been around kids that age recently.  It's the politics of little league baseball that I hear about, and how soon players get pigeonholed, that shocks me.  That and how much time and expense is now involved.

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« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2007, 10:41:52 am »
In 1995, I knew a guy who's son played on a travel/select team. That was the first I ever heard of it.


The article indicates mid 90s.
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JSAstrosFan

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2007, 10:45:30 am »

Unless it has changed recently, LL had a rule that no kid couldn't play because of an inability to pay.

If I had only known... I would have pestered my parents until they ended up giving in and going deeper in the hole because they didn't want to accept charity *sigh*. Such is life. All is good now, and I will without a doubt encourage and support my children with anything they want to do. The hard part will be trying not to push baseball if any of them are not interested.

Noe

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2007, 10:50:11 am »
Recruiting for High School is prohibited (or at least not in the best interest) from what I understand, and certainly should not be used to determine what school your child should receive his/her education.

Tell that to Rocky Manuel at Bellaire High School.  Or better known as "Baseball Academy".

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« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2007, 10:52:47 am »
That school is crazy.
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Outlawscotty

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« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2007, 11:14:30 am »
The exception to the rule I suppose.  It has all the criteria of all the arguments in this thread. 

Produced Knoblauch, Cruz, Jr. Bubba Crosby, and Brian Malow; is in the top .5% academically in the nation, and has at least 10% from each demographic within the student body (except Native American.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellaire_High_School,_Bellaire,_Texas

The problem is that their mascot is the Cardinals.

and their head baseball coach endorses (V)ictory...
http://www.victory-la.com/advisory_bios_manuel.html

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« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2007, 04:04:45 pm »
No idea about that.  But I work with someone whose kids are playing baseball on select teams in South Houston.  They drive two hours to get to the fields they play on in Houston.  They have overnights in Beaumont.  The high school coaches are scouting these teams.  They have pitching and hitting coaches.  Playing in the street and knowing what a ghost runner is gets you no where.  This is now a serious business.  You have to be committed with time and money and the will to play the political game from the very beginning to get your kid on the high school team and then to have any chance to get to college ball.   I hope others have different experiences.   But it seems to me that playing sandlot ball from the time the dew dries to the street lights coming on, unless some coach is watching you, isnt going to get you in the game.


I don't know about that.  Perhaps it's that way in places, or perhaps it's that way now everywhere.  But it wasn't when I was in school.  I moved to Texas the last week of January in my sophomore year.  I tried out for the baseball team the following week, where no one had ever even seen me.  Of course I made the team just fine.  That probably pissed off some kids who thought being the local league stud gave them the inside track, but that had nothing to do with it.  It was about whether or not you could play.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2007, 04:47:43 pm »
Both of you are right on different levels. I think the idea of race is an arbitrary and generally useless one. What is called race is sometimes culture, sometimes it's nationality, sometimes it's language. So, one bi-racial person (Derek Jeter or my own kids, for that matter) is called African American for certain purposes, but Tony Parker isn't because he was born in France. Carlos Lee is Hispanic because he was born in a Spanish-speaking family, despite his Chinese last name and heritage. When a person has an Irish and a German parent, they're not forced to choose between those cultures, so I generally ignore racial catagories.

But my point this time has to be made using race because as one of you said (I think it was A-Rod), I want the best athletes playing baseball and too many of the best black athletes are playing other sports. So, I'm concerned about a lack of black baseball players because I want athletes playing baseball, not because I need to see players who look like me. I never had and never will be a racial bean-counter.

I think all of us would love to add Dontrelle Willis to the Astros' pitching staff, not because we think we lack black pitchers, but because we lack pitching depth and want someone who can help us win. That's my entire point here. Too many Dontrelles are opting for basketball and football and I want to do something about that, if possible.

Thanks for all the contributions to this thread. It has been respectful and enlightening.


I agree about this thread, a lot of good posts.

Like you and apparently a lot of other people, I grew up with the game, on my own terms.  Parents were peripheral to my playing, and to the development of my love for the game.  My pre-adolescence in the 1970s sounds a lot like yours, whenever it was, and a lot of other people's - we'd play in the neighborhood schoolyard with a tennis ball (after breaking several windows with the real thing), and then sometimes for no particular reason I can recall, we'd play on a cul-de-sac in our neighborhood.  'The Circle', we called it.  The concrete circular cul de sac was the infield, with home plate at the top of it, facing the surrounding houses.  A home run was if you hit it on someone's roof, and we had various and sometimes ad hoc ground rules for if you hit one into someone's open garage, under Mr. Dean's Mustang, etc.  The people whose homes suddenly became our outfield fence didn't seem to mind for the most part.  Some even pulled lawn chairs out into the driveway (on the field of play, by the way) to watch.

But the main thing I remember is playing intensely for most of the day, on the street or in the schoolyard, and then mid-afternoon somebody's mom would come out there and tell us it was time to wrap it up, because we all had our various Little League practices/games to go to.  We hated that.  Organized ball was a drag compared to playing in the neighborhood.  Like probably every other kid, I remember to this day some great catch I made or timely hit I got in the schoolyard, that no one except my friends and playmates saw or knew about.  I remember those much more clearly and warmly than anything good I intermittently did in LL and Babe Ruth and high school.

Parents like to say kids are cruel to each other.  In some cases, yes; but I also think by and large, maybe since they are only playing for themsleves and not through someone else vicariously, kids are often more democratic than their parents are.  In our neighborhood games, we let any kid play, regardless of ability.  Sometimes we just wanted them to fill out a side, or because they had a really nice bat, but still, they got to play.  Being in the game increased one's chance of doing something outstanding, and along with my own backyard exploits, I also remember very well some of the great plays that came from seemingly unlikely places.  I'll never forget this one kid named Steve.  He was kind of slight, and not naturally athletic.  We called him "Curtis" because he wore glasses and had a round face and looked very much like Curtis Mayfield.  Anyway, he was a lefty swinger who usually just dribbled the ball to the first baseman; but I will never forget the day my team was winning by a couple with the other side in their last at bats.  Two guys on and Steve/Curtis up.  We figured we had it won; but then he got hold of one somehow, and drove it deep into right center, driving in the tying runs. Then he scored the winner when the next guy hit one back through the box.  He was just clutch that day, and I'll never forget it.  He probably won't, either.  I haven't seen him in twenty-some years, but if I ever do, his hit is probably one of the first things we'd talk about.

Something like that wouldn't have happened in organized ball, because he would never have been allowed to bat in that situation, if he got to play at all.

As far as getting inner city kids back into the game, I believe a common denominator of some of the baseball "hotbeds" over recent decades -- Mobile, Alabama in the '50s and '60s, Tampa in the '70s and '80s -- was an outstanding municipal program of available fields and equipment and instruction.  Maybe people should start in their own towns on that level.  Sometimes it is easier to change things in one's own back yard than it is to change the world.

Billy Zabka

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2007, 06:04:21 pm »
The exception to the rule I suppose.  It has all the criteria of all the arguments in this thread. 

Produced Knoblauch, Cruz, Jr. Bubba Crosby, and Brian Malow;

The magnet school exception - while they are good for academics, they also do stuff like that.

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2007, 11:37:15 am »
I don't know about this.  I grew up playing with my brother and a wiffle ball and bat in my back yard in Austin. 


This is an online wiffle ball game:

http://www.nabiscoworld.com/Games/game_large.aspx?gameid=10035
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pravata

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Re: black baseball players. etc.
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2007, 10:55:40 am »
This articles says not enough role models, http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20070412_On_diamonds__the_nearly_invisible_man.html I like it because they blame Bonds.

Sambito

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« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2007, 12:23:35 pm »
Role models, teachers, connectors, and intentional structures to
finance and to re-enculturate baseball back into the sport spotlight
"Mo cuishle means my darling. My blood."
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Houston

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« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2007, 01:39:46 pm »
Role models, teachers, connectors, and intentional structures to
finance and to re-enculturate baseball back into the sport spotlight

Sambito: Did you get my PM to you a couple of days ago? I had a couple of questions for you. Thanks
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby

Sambito

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« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2007, 08:40:27 pm »
my bad: I am technologically backward, I 'll have a look and reply back
"Mo cuishle means my darling. My blood."
                   Frankie Dunn (Million Dollar Baby)

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein