Retire JR Richard Jersey (ESPN Page 2)

[Curly]

Didn't see this on here in my brief between meeting glances...if it is I apologize.  Interesting read, and I completely agree.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/070404&sportCat=mlb

[Astroholic]

Didn't see this on here in my brief between meeting glances...if it is I apologize.  Interesting read, and I completely agree.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/070404&sportCat=mlb

Thanks, I signed the petition.  He was one of my heros when I was a kid.  He, C. Cedeno and E. Cabell all lived in my neighborhood when I was a kid.  Cesar lived right next door to a very good friend of mine.  I was in heaven. 

P.S.
Rumor has it that the stroke was caused by some sort of cocaine usage.

[Taras Bulba]

Didn't see this on here in my brief between meeting glances...if it is I apologize.  Interesting read, and I completely agree.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/070404&sportCat=mlb

Nyet.  He woulda/coulda, but 107-71 ain't HOF.  By current and questionable Astros criteria, maybe.  Maybe a sign like the one for Kile or some other recognition, but this retired number thing is a slippery slope.  Houston should only have two retired numbers (someday) and those should be #5 and #7.  IMHO.

[Astroholic]

Nyet.  He woulda/coulda, but 107-71 ain't HOF.  By current and questionable Astros criteria, maybe.  Maybe a sign like the one for Kile or some other recognition, but this retired number thing is a slippery slope.  Houston should only have two retired numbers (someday) and those should be #5 and #7.  IMHO.

Should have, but they have already set the criteria low, so why not JR?

[pravata]

Should have, but they have already set the criteria low, so why not JR?

It's one of the things about the Astros that makes me cringe.  They try so hard to make a history for the team, it just looks silly.  Fyi,

As a rule, the Cardinals retire a player’s number only if he has been elected to the Hall of Fame. The club made an exception for the popular third baseman Ken Boyer, who died of cancer in 1982 and had his number retired two years later.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/04/sports/baseball/04statue.html

Cardinals have retired 8 numbers including Boyer.  Cubs 4, Reds 7, Mets 3  http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats10n.shtml The Astros already have 7 retired numbers.

In no way am I trying to disparage JR Richard and his obvious skills.

[Mr. Happy]

Didn't see this on here in my brief between meeting glances...if it is I apologize.  Interesting read, and I completely agree.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/070404&sportCat=mlb

He lost all credibility with me at the outset when he thought that Dukakis would have made a great president. I hate the issue of retiring numbers because too often it is motivated by marketing or by knee-jerk sympathy.

[Astroholic]

he thought that Dukakis would have made a great president.

I am pretty sure that was his attempt at a joke, even thought many millions of Americans agreed with him (me not amoung them).

[David in Jackson]

It's one of the things about the Astros that makes me cringe.  They try so hard to make a history for the team, it just looks silly.  Fyi,

As a rule, the Cardinals retire a player’s number only if he has been elected to the Hall of Fame. The club made an exception for the popular third baseman Ken Boyer, who died of cancer in 1982 and had his number retired two years later.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/04/sports/baseball/04statue.html

Cardinals have retired 8 numbers including Boyer.  Cubs 4, Reds 7, Mets 3  http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats10n.shtml The Astros already have 7 retired numbers.

In no way am I trying to disparage JR Richard and his obvious skills.

I agree with this take and stance on retired numbers.

[Astroholic]

I agree with this take and stance on retired numbers.

I agree with that logic as well. Unfortunately the Astros front office, desperate for something to hang in the dome, lowered their standards. Once these standards were lowered...well.  In the words of the immortal HD, it makes the organization look like lackey racist necks.

[Mr. Happy]

I am pretty sure that was his attempt at a joke, even thought many millions of Americans agreed with him (me not amoung them).

Actually, it was my attempt at humor. It seems hard-hearted to argue against retiring an injured or deceased player's number. If you stack Richards's numbers against those of Wilson (as well as those of Ryan and Scott), he certainly merits consideration of having his number retired. Think of the first number that the Astros retired, Jim Umbricht, was 8-3 with the Astros. Did he merit retirement of his number 32? If we're going to retire the number of Richard, what about Joe Niekro's number, who won 144 games as an Astro? He just died as a still young man. Once you start, where do you stop? Call me hard-hearted, but I say no retired number unless you're in the HOF. Simple bright-line test.

[Astroholic]

Actually, it was my attempt at humor. It seems hard-hearted to argue against retiring an injured or deceased player's number. If you stack Richards's numbers against those of Wilson (as well as those of Ryan and Scott), he certainly merits consideration of having his number retired. Think of the first number that the Astros retired, Jim Umbricht, was 8-3 with the Astros. Did he merit retirement of his number 32? If we're going to retire the number of Richard, what about Joe Niekro's number, who won 144 games as an Astro? He just died as a still young man. Once you start, where do you stop? Call me hard-hearted, but I say no retired number unless you're in the HOF. Simple bright-line test.

I agree, if this is what the organization has done all along.  You can't un-retire numbers that don't meet a certain specification.  JR played with Nolan and Cruz.  One of these meets your criteria and one does not.   Both of their numbers are retired.

Nevertheless, Im done.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I totally agree that retired numbers in the Astro organization have less meaning than with probably every other MLB club. But what the hey. Who really gives a fuck what the Mets, Cubs, Reds, or Cards have done? The bar has been lowered and the genie ain't going back in the bottle. J. R. deserves the same recognition as Wilson & Umbricht. Just 'cause J. R. lived isn't an excuse not to honor him. Walt Bond died and didn't get his jersey retired, he did as much as Umbricht.

[Ty in Tampa]

...retired numbers in the Astro organization have less meaning than with probably every other MLB club.

The Devil Rays retired Wade Boggs' number. I think they're safe.

[Mr. Happy]

Hells bells then. Let's throw a party and retire everybody's number. The local nine will look spiffy running out with fractions on the jerseys.

[Ty in Tampa]

Hells bells then. Let's throw a party and retire everybody's number. The local nine will look spiffy running out with fractions on the jerseys.

I'm not advocating it. Just pointing out the Astros don't have a lock on the absurdity.

[Limey]

I'm not advocating it. Just pointing out the Astros don't have a lock on the absurdity.

Switching gears...how long 'til they retire #5?

[Mr. Happy]

Switching gears...how long 'til they retire #5?

Tomorrow night?

[remy]

Switching gears...how long 'til they retire #5?

My guess is they'll wait until opening day 2008 and do a joint #5/#7 retirement ceremony.

[loganck]

Switching gears...how long 'til they retire #5?

I emailed Lucas about that on Monday.  His response:

Not yet.  He WILL be honored FRiday before the game, though.

[Frobie]

Here's my own geeky take on this article...

There is *not*, and as far as I can tell has never been, such a thing as "Southern Methodist Hospital" in Houston.  JR was taken to THE Methodist Hospital in the Texas Medical Center, at least so far as I can put together.  When I saw the ESPN article today I went searching for what the hell they were talking about and found this:  http://www.astrosdaily.com/hall/Richard_JR.html

I'd hate to think that an ESPN writer would use astrosdaily.com as a source (not that there isn't great historical info at the site--there is) but I just have to scratch my head. 

[Astroholic]

P. Hood, by your standards Bagwell's number can not be retired until (if) he gets into the HOF.  It would be cool if the stros have a bronze statue of 5/7, oh wait....they already do.

[Andyzipp]

Should have, but they have already set the criteria low, so why not JR?

In other words, the Astros have a history of making the number retirement meaningless, so what's one more.

[Astroholic]

In other words, the Astros have a history of making the number retirement meaningless, so what's one more.

Exactly.  Why not JR?  Is there some other reason?  It is not due to the career numbers that match up well with the astros "criteria".

[Mr. Happy]

P. Hood, by your standards Bagwell's number can not be retired until (if) he gets into the HOF.  It would be cool if the stros have a bronze statue of 5/7, oh wait....they already do.

I've already modified my stance. Retire all the numbers. I want Watson, Cedeno, Rader, Joe Niekro and Shane Reynolds numbers retired. And while we're in a retiring mode, why not Jesus Alou's number?

[pravata]

I've already modified my stance. Retire all the numbers. I want Watson, Cedeno, Rader, Joe Niekro and Shane Reynolds numbers retired. And while we're in a retiring mode, why not Jesus Alou's number?

Hipolito Pichardo.  Certainly he had one of the most memorable of all careers as an Astro.  Pretty soon the franchise will only have one number and everyone will be wearing the same number, http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-04-05-robinson-no-42_N.htm

[Mr. Happy]

Hipolito Pichardo.  Certainly he had one of the most memorable of all careers as an Astro.  Pretty soon the franchise will only have one number and everyone will be wearing the same number, http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-04-05-robinson-no-42_N.htm

Amen. And I can't believe that I left out Senor Smoke.

[MusicMan]

I've already modified my stance. Retire all the numbers. I want Watson, Cedeno, Rader, Joe Niekro and Shane Reynolds numbers retired. And while we're in a retiring mode, why not Jesus Alou's number?

I better see "28 - Spiers" hanging from the rafters.

[Mr. Happy]

I better see "28 - Spiers" hanging from the rafters.

And I just got an e-mail from Lil Joe asking for some love.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Amen. And I can't believe that I left out Senor Smoke.

I can't believe it either. You couldn't tell him and J.R. apart if they were standing side by side. Their careers  were so fucking identical.

[Rammer33]

I do think the other pitchers have a little somehting else beyond JR. Dierker has the booth and the years managing and scott has '86 ... now don't get me wrong if those guys deserve to have their number retired JR does to ... I am just not sure those guys deserve to have their number retired ... close call on all

[HudsonHawk]

In other words, the Astros have a history of making the number retirement meaningless, so what's one more.

When is Franklin Stubbs getting his number retired?

[Andyzipp]

Best left-handed clean-up hitter the Astros ever had in the 80's.  But he's probably gonna have to die first.  Dying would do that guy a lot of good.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Best left-handed clean-up hitter the Astros ever had in the 80's.  But he's probably gonna have to die first.  Dying would do that guy a lot of good.

Or, if had torn his labium.

[SoonerJim]

I totally agree that retired numbers in the Astro organization have less meaning than with probably every other MLB club. But what the hey. Who really gives a fuck what the Mets, Cubs, Reds, or Cards have done? The bar has been lowered and the genie ain't going back in the bottle. J. R. deserves the same recognition as Wilson & Umbricht. Just 'cause J. R. lived isn't an excuse not to honor him. Walt Bond died and didn't get his jersey retired, he did as much as Umbricht.

I agree with this take. I think we retire premature deaths and on-field excellence. When Elvis died, an entertainment agent called it a great career move. Numbers go to infinity, so why the heck not? Richard had a great run once the control issues were resolved. How he had the stroke is of no one's concern. He paid his debt, as it were.

[Curly]

Should have, but they have already set the criteria low, so why not JR?

  That is the point that I agree with.  By Astros standards they could do it...compaired to other organizations that have only hall of famers...or boarderline HOFers then no.  But they way the Astros have done it in the past...and future, I agree.  Having the limited history compared to those teams though, I think the organizations belives this gives the city and it's fans a little more pride in the team and something to be proud of until we add more HOFers.  But it also brings up the question...since JRs numbers aren't good enough for the HOF, based on the fact that it wasn't over one or two years...do you think that you would have JR as your starting pitcher against the other teams HOF pitchers with retired numbers?  I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to pencil him in my lineup against the best in the HOF.

[HudsonHawk]

I agree with this take. I think we retire premature deaths and on-field excellence. When Elvis died, an entertainment agent called it a great career move. Numbers go to infinity, so why the heck not? Richard had a great run once the control issues were resolved. How he had the stroke is of no one's concern. He paid his debt, as it were.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it renders retiring a number meaningless.  It already pretty much is with the Astros now.  When Jeff Bagwell has his number retired, it's going to be "so what?"  Let's face it, there is nothing special about the Houston Astros retiring your number.

[SoonerJim]

The problem with this line of thinking is that it renders retiring a number meaningless.  It already pretty much is with the Astros now.  When Jeff Bagwell has his number retired, it's going to be "so what?"  Let's face it, there is nothing special about the Houston Astros retiring your number.

The real value of a number retirement ceremony is as a marketing effort. Richard appeals to Baby Boomers of a certain age, and his prior homeless status lends human interest to the story, making it a can't miss opportunity to acknowledge the best RHP in baseball for 2 1/2 years. If the honor is diluted by Bagwell joining a select group which includes Jim Umbricht, there is precedent. The Baseball HOF bestowed its honor to Babe Ruth and Ted Williams, and Joe Tinker and Johnny Evers.  The Houston standard may be promiscuously applied, but it exists.

[Curly]

The problem with this line of thinking is that it renders retiring a number meaningless.  It already pretty much is with the Astros now.  When Jeff Bagwell has his number retired, it's going to be "so what?"  Let's face it, there is nothing special about the Houston Astros retiring your number.

The special part of it is when I'm at the game with my boys, they looke up and say who were those players dad, becuase they have no idea other than the facts/myths that I get to tell them, creating the larger than life image that I believe we all have regarding certian players.