screw it- I'm ready for Pence

[WulawHorn]

Burke has been an unmitigated disaster through three games in CF.  Let Pence play CF- he can't be any worse.  Only guy I've seen that bad in the outfield for the local nine is Biggio.

[Fredia]

its  like when burke made that error dropping the ball it opened up the flood gates for the pirates. wonder how long the love affair with burke is going to last

[Navin R Johnson]

Can we swap Burke for Salomon Torres?   

[HudsonHawk]

Burke has been an unmitigated disaster through three games in CF.  Let Pence play CF- he can't be any worse.  Only guy I've seen that bad in the outfield for the local nine is Biggio.

It's been three fuckin games.  Count 'em...three.  Can we wait until the tax deadline to start pissing in our pants?

[Mr. Happy]

It's been three fuckin games.  Count 'em...three.  Can we wait until the tax deadline to start pissing in our pants?

Amen. Amen I say. Did you see the Jakes tonight? They got swept at home too. Pence needs some time facing some wily veterans at AAA first.

[Navin R Johnson]

It's been three fuckin games.  Count 'em...three.  Can we wait until the tax deadline to start pissing in our pants?

Lidge didnt blow tonights game, so people need a new dog to kick this evening. 

[HudsonHawk]

Lidge didnt blow tonights game, so people need a new dog to kick this evening. 

Just fuckin boggles my mind...it's April 4th, and you've seen enough already? 

[MusicMan]

Can we wait until the tax deadline to start pissing in our pants?

Please file Form 4868-PIP to extend your deadline for pissing in your pants past the 4/15 deadline.

[Navin R Johnson]

Just fuckin boggles my mind...it's April 4th, and you've seen enough already? 

No I havent seen enough already, hence my first post, which was obviously made in jest.

[HudsonHawk]

No I havent seen enough already, hence my first post, which was obviously made in jest.

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you personally.  I meant "you" as in the rhetorical "person who is complaining after three games". 

[Navin R Johnson]

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you personally.  I meant "you" as in the rhetorical "person who is complaining after three games". 

no problem, I thought that might be the case.

[Kent's Moustache]

Please file Form 4868-PIP to extend your deadline for pissing in your pants past the 4/15 deadline.

Well played, sir.

[Craig]

Please file Form 4868-PIP to extend your deadline for pissing in your pants past the 4/15 deadline.

Oh great, now I'll have to itemize.

Hey wait a minute. I pay estimated taxes ... I'm required to piss my pants every quarter.

[MusicMan]

Oh great, now I'll have to itemize.

Hey wait a minute. I pay estimated taxes ... I'm required to piss my pants every quarter.

Not only that, but if you miss a quarter, you'll have to crap your drawers.

[Dobro]

It's been three fuckin games.  Count 'em...three.  Can we wait until the tax deadline to start pissing in our pants?

This is the same clown who was bitching about Biggio after two games.

[Craig]

Not only that, but if you miss a quarter, you'll have to crap your drawers.

Shit. I need an accountant.

[Don]

Shit. I need an accountant.

And plenty of clean underwear.

[Craig]

And plenty of clean underwear.

For this season, we may all need Depends.

[JSAstrosFan]

Pittsburgh, 3-0, 1.000, -
Milwaukee, 2-1, .667, 1.0
Chi Cubs, 1-1, .500, 1.5
Cincinnati, 1-1, .500, 1.5
Houston, 0-3, .000, 3.0
St. Louis, 0-3, .000, 3.0

After a full 3 games it's now perfectly clear this offseason turned the NL Central upside-down.

[/sarcasm]

Seriously, everyone is frustrated with these last three games. All were winnable, and it's especially frustrating knowing how close the last 3 seasons were. But it's still April. And regardless, it's just fuel for The Garner Method.

[TheWizard]

For this season, we may all need Depends.

I'd prefer those NASA diapers.. they seem to be high quality.

[astrojo]

I'd prefer those NASA diapers.. they seem to be high quality.

Pampernauts.

[WulawHorn]

I thought this board was on the leading edge of valueing defense and dismissing people who ignored it as fantacrap.

I'm not even talking about Burke's error, when I'm venting about this- I'm talking about the at least 3 balls (in only three games) he didn't get to that Wily T would have.

Opening night, the dive where he dropped the ball he froze and got a bad break.  He broke wrong on the ball in the 8th last night that made a loser out of wheeler.  Also, the play up on the hill could have been made- he was drifting all over the place chasing it, and ran to the wrong spot. The hill didn't even need to come into play. Sure, the hill is chickenshit- but I've seen many CF (even some guys on visiting teams) make plays up on that thing.

Oh- and if you wanna say I'm freaking out about bidge after 2 games and rip me for that- go ahead and tell JimR and all the others on the bidge thread that they are chicken little as well. I don't have a minority opinion on that one.  Bidge looked terrible at the plate the first two nights.  I didn't get to see much of the game on Wednesday (had late dinner plans and was watching it on TIVO ff before bed), but his AB with the bases loaded which I watched at live speed was pitiful.  Also- that was the weakest hit I've ever seen in the 3rd inning- clear error. I'm going to assume he gets the benefit of the doubt all year long till he gets to 3000 and becomes more of a role player.

It doesn't have to be Pence out there in CF- but I don't see the point in Burke if he can't get it done defensively. By the time he adjusts to CF he will be ready to take over for Bidge at 2b. Wily T had a learning curve out there and he'd played the position his entire life.

[EasTexAstro]

Sadly, good CFers don't come cheap, and the Astros had to give up Willy to fill a big hole in the rotation. Yes, it is a huge learning curve and maybe we will see Lane out there soon just to get a little bit better defense.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

You might want to step away from the keyboard.  No one is saying the last three games have not been frustrating to watch.  No one is saying Biggio is playing with some unknown inspiration.  No one is saying Burke will make us forget spectacular defensive plays by his 2 predecessors (Beltran and Taveras).  I think the key point of the criticisms of your post had to do with making snap decisions on just 3 games, as awful as they may be. 

No offense, but you are getting entirely too riled at this early stage of the season.   Give them some time before you decide the Astros 2007 Opening Day roster is in need of a major over-haul.   

[TangerineDream]

You might want to step away from the keyboard.  No one is saying the last three games have not been frustrating to watch.  No one is saying Biggio is playing with some unknown inspiration.  No one is saying Burke will make us forget spectacular defensive plays by his 2 predecessors (Beltran and Taveras).  I think the key point of the criticisms of your post had to do with making snap decisions on just 3 games, as awful as they may be. 

No offense, but you are getting entirely too riled at this early stage of the season.   Give them some time before you decide the Astros 2007 Opening Day roster is in need of a major over-haul.   

Certainly this is sage advice for all. Thanks Major

[Mr. Happy]

I thought this board was on the leading edge of valueing defense and dismissing people who ignored it as fantacrap.

I'm not even talking about Burke's error, when I'm venting about this- I'm talking about the at least 3 balls (in only three games) he didn't get to that Wily T would have.

Opening night, the dive where he dropped the ball he froze and got a bad break.  He broke wrong on the ball in the 8th last night that made a loser out of wheeler.  Also, the play up on the hill could have been made- he was drifting all over the place chasing it, and ran to the wrong spot. The hill didn't even need to come into play. Sure, the hill is chickenshit- but I've seen many CF (even some guys on visiting teams) make plays up on that thing.

Oh- and if you wanna say I'm freaking out about bidge after 2 games and rip me for that- go ahead and tell JimR and all the others on the bidge thread that they are chicken little as well. I don't have a minority opinion on that one.  Bidge looked terrible at the plate the first two nights.  I didn't get to see much of the game on Wednesday (had late dinner plans and was watching it on TIVO ff before bed), but his AB with the bases loaded which I watched at live speed was pitiful.  Also- that was the weakest hit I've ever seen in the 3rd inning- clear error. I'm going to assume he gets the benefit of the doubt all year long till he gets to 3000 and becomes more of a role player.

It doesn't have to be Pence out there in CF- but I don't see the point in Burke if he can't get it done defensively. By the time he adjusts to CF he will be ready to take over for Bidge at 2b. Wily T had a learning curve out there and he'd played the position his entire life.

Your points are valid, but the sample size is a little short. With their jobs on the line, Scrap Iron and Count Purpula will pull the plug on Burke at the right time. And keep those cards and letters coming.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Certainly this is sage advice for all. Thanks Major

Thanks, it's a bit unusual for me.  Must be too early for my normal over-simplifcations to dominate.  And I think I'm going to try a new name for a while.  Major Tom just isn't fitting right lately....

[Tralfaz]

So I didn't get to see the game due to wonderful cable provider.  How did Woody look?  Not a single K?  I know he's not strike out pitcher, but was he struggling with location?  Boxscore says the runs in the fifth were all earned, but there is alot of chatter about C. Burkes error's being the cause.  Info please?

[EasTexAstro]

To me, he was just what I expected: A veteran pitcher that kept the batters from getting too comfortable. He changed speeds and locations, seemed to work well with Quintero, and got a lot of popups and grounders. Unfortunately, some of those popups and grounders didn't get turned into outs.

Woody wasn't great, but he looked pretty good. While he kept the ball in the park, the grounders and fly balls did get hit pretty hard. Burke had to run back on a few, Ensberg got caught on the wrist by a screamer right at him, and of course the one that Everett played twister with.

[JimR]

the point is, Wulaw, you are going overboard. to call for Pence is insane. he has not shown he can hit AAA pitching consistently yet.

i do not think Burke can play CF either, but one bad game in the first 3 does not prove that or anything.

[JackAstro]

To me, he was just what I expected: A veteran pitcher that kept the batters from getting too comfortable. He changed speeds and locations, seemed to work well with Quintero, and got a lot of popups and grounders. Unfortunately, some of those popups and grounders didn't get turned into outs.

Woody wasn't great, but he looked pretty good. While he kept the ball in the park, the grounders and fly balls did get hit pretty hard. Burke had to run back on a few, Ensberg got caught on the wrist by a screamer right at him, and of course the one that Everett played twister with.

Yep, that was exactly it. I thought he and Quintero looked like a good match out there, too. I think it was Jimmy D who noted that he's been working almost exclusively with his club's backup catcher for years now, which is a hell of a nice perk on this team. Ausmus can't catch them all, and it's seemed like the club has been having trouble getting a consistent battery to work with the backup in recent years.

Woody looked like a veteran with average stuff who knew what he needed to do out there. Smart game, threw everything and the kitchen sink, and just kept cycling through it all trying to keep the cuts from bleeding too much. The defense was pretty much a clusterfuck out there, or it would have gone better for him. I think you can write down 6IP, 3ER for the rest of the season, and he'll probably vary by +/- an inning and a run.

[Mr. Happy]

the point is, Wulaw, you are going overboard. to call for Pence is insane. he has not shown he can hit AAA pitching consistently yet.

i do not think Burke can play CF either, but one bad game in the first 3 does not prove that or anything.

Jim:

You're right on all three counts. Bringing along a young player is as much of an art as a science. I don't want them to bring up a kid until they believe he is ready. I think that they jumped the gun a bit on Luke Scott a couple of years ago and it hurt Scott, and while he seems to have recovered nicely from being overmatched, not every prospect is so lucky. We've got good talent evaluators in the front office. Let's let them decide when and where.

[WulawHorn]

Fair enough Jim- I don't really care if Pence is the guy at this point in time or not- if the org thinks he needs seasoning then I'm fine with that.

Burke is not cutting it defensively in CF. I don't think it was one bad game- it was three different balls, in three different games. If you agree that he ain't going to cut it in CF that is what I'm saying.  Maybe Lane in CF is the answer, while we wait and see on Pence's ability to hit AAA pitching, and his ability in CF.

I just think Burke's defense in CF, misjudging balls, and being like a turnstyle with runners taking an extra base is going to kill the pitching staff on this team- much the way bidge's defense in CF was so troubling.

Like I said- I'm not even talking about the error, more the balls that aren't turned into outs that were turned into outs the past 3 seasons.

[WulawHorn]

Jim:

You're right on all three counts. Bringing along a young player is as much of an art as a science. I don't want them to bring up a kid until they believe he is ready. I think that they jumped the gun a bit on Luke Scott a couple of years ago and it hurt Scott, and while he seems to have recovered nicely from being overmatched, not every prospect is so lucky. We've got good talent evaluators in the front office. Let's let them decide when and where.

Paul- I'm of the opinion- and I might be full of shit, who knows, that you cannot ruin a special player. If a guy is going to be great he will overcome being overmatched- if it wasn't meant to be then it doesn't matter how he is treated.

I think Mays started out like 1 for 30 in his major league career.  Payton Manning threw 30 picks his rookie season. If you are gonna be a great one can't nothing stop that. I don't think you can be great in any sport (or any walk of life) without being top notch mentally strong. If you are that guy mentally then you can overcome any of that other stuff.

It's just my take on it, but I don't think you can ruin ultimately ruin greatness.

[Bench]

Paul- I'm of the opinion- and I might be full of shit, who knows, that you cannot ruin a special player. If a guy is going to be great he will overcome being overmatched- if it wasn't meant to be then it doesn't matter how he is treated.

I think Mays started out like 1 for 30 in his major league career.  Payton Manning threw 30 picks his rookie season. If you are gonna be a great one can't nothing stop that. I don't think you can be great in any sport (or any walk of life) without being top notch mentally strong. If you are that guy mentally then you can overcome any of that other stuff.

It's just my take on it, but I don't think you can ruin ultimately ruin greatness.

I don't think it's really an issue of greatness, just that people need to be challenged in order to improve. There's no harm in someone not being ready to take on that challenge immediately. Giving Scott the opportunity two years ago hardly threatened to "ruin" him. There's no harm in that he wasn't up for it at that time, and it probably helped his development in the long run to get that taste, see what he needs to work on, and go to AAA to work on it. While you need to be aware of someone's limitations, you do not need to baby them along the entire way. Give people a chance to fail, and they're often better for it. I think this applies universally, and not just to baseball development.

[EasTexAstro]

Maybe not, but will he help the team while he is overmatched? Will he be better than the current options while waiting for him to adjust?

[pravata]

Paul- I'm of the opinion- and I might be full of shit, who knows, that you cannot ruin a special player. If a guy is going to be great he will overcome being overmatched- if it wasn't meant to be then it doesn't matter how he is treated.

I think Mays started out like 1 for 30 in his major league career.  Payton Manning threw 30 picks his rookie season. If you are gonna be a great one can't nothing stop that. I don't think you can be great in any sport (or any walk of life) without being top notch mentally strong. If you are that guy mentally then you can overcome any of that other stuff.

It's just my take on it, but I don't think you can ruin ultimately ruin greatness.

Did you just compare Hunter Pence to Willy Mays?  I had a birds eye view of Burke all last night.   He wasn't good.  And not just on the balls he dropped and didnt get to.  However, there is no logic in saying that Pence would be better.  We don't know that.  Couldn't be worse, is a lame way to evaluate a player.  The Astros are going to play Pence in center in RR to improve his defense.

[WulawHorn]

No P- I wasn't trying to compare Pence to Willy Mays- sorry if it came off clumsy.

I was more changing the concept of ruining a great player by bringing him up to early. It's just my thought that to be great you need mental fortitude, and if you have that you cannot possibly be ruined by coming up to quickly.

You will adapt at the new league level, or go down, learn what you need to work on, and get it done.

Not saying Pence is that guy-just a general statement.

[MusicMan]

Paul- I'm of the opinion- and I might be full of shit, who knows, that you cannot ruin a special player.

I agree.

Sincerely,
Rick Ankiel

[ducktaper]

1.85%

That's how much of the season is gone.  Settle down.  Sure it looks bad in three games, but remember how the co-ards circled the drain for the last six weeks of the season last year.  Hardly 3 games.  Their fans reacted like this board with doom and naysaying.  Oh yeah, then they won it all....

I'm not saying I think the boys will win it all, but 40+ years of watching baseball tells me that panicking after 3 games is the mark of not quite understanding.

[WulawHorn]

See MM- the thing about Ankiel is he had a 10 cent head.  What great player have you ever known, in any sport, that was a mental midget.

I'm not saying you have to be in the top 3% or anything, but there is a certain mental accumen necessary for greatness- if for no other reason than all the pressures, publicity etc that go along with it.

Ankiel caught a case of the Yips.  Established pitchers, golfers etc have all dealt with this. I don't think being rushed had anything to do with anything on him.

[Kent's Moustache]

No offense, but you are getting entirely too riled at this early stage of the season.   Give them some time before you decide the Astros 2007 Opening Day roster is in need of a major over-haul.

See, e.g., "Big Dick" Justice, circa May, 2005.

[JimR]

Paul- I'm of the opinion- and I might be full of shit, who knows, that you cannot ruin a special player. If a guy is going to be great he will overcome being overmatched- if it wasn't meant to be then it doesn't matter how he is treated.

this truly is insane. step away quickly.

in addition, i did not say that Burke cannot "cut it in CF." i said i do not think that he can. there is a big difference there.

[Astroholic]

What great player have you ever known, in any sport, that was a mental midget.

 
Pete Rose was/is a genius.  Earl Cambell was/is pretty smart too.  V.Young did kinda good on the wonderlick. 

How could I forget Rickey Henderson.  He was a Rhode Scholar.

[MikeyBoy]

 
 V.Young did kinda good on the wonderlick.

This could get ugly.

[Astroholic]

This could get ugly.

Only if he was hitting the two hole.

[MusicMan]

See MM- the thing about Ankiel is he had a 10 cent head.  What great player have you ever known, in any sport, that was a mental midget.

I'm not saying you have to be in the top 3% or anything, but there is a certain mental accumen necessary for greatness- if for no other reason than all the pressures, publicity etc that go along with it.

Ankiel caught a case of the Yips.  Established pitchers, golfers etc have all dealt with this. I don't think being rushed had anything to do with anything on him.

Wait... did he have a 10 cent head, or the Yips?

I think it had a hell of a lot to do with starting the first friggin' game of the playoffs against the Braves.

I still remember watching the guy pitch for the first time (at Minute Maid) and simultaneously being glad that we would get to see him pitch so many times, and repulsed that so many of them would be against the Astros.  The guy's stuff was just incredible.

[Astroholic]

Wait... did he have a 10 cent head, or the Yips?

I think it had a hell of a lot to do with starting the first friggin' game of the playoffs against the Braves.

I still remember watching the guy pitch for the first time (at Minute Maid) and simultaneously being glad that we would get to see him pitch so many times, and repulsed that so many of them would be against the Astros.  The guy's stuff was just incredible.

Now Redding, he has a 10c head.

[MusicMan]

Now Redding, he has a 10c head.

You're about 9c high, there.

[WulawHorn]

So was/is Brad Lidge's, but nobody here (including me) thinks that he was ruined by Pujols HR.

Vince Young is an extremely intelligent football player. Pete Rose understood baseball completely and totally.  Forget I said anything-I'm doing a piss poor job of explaining myself to yall- I suck  

[Astroholic]

So was/is Brad Lidge's, but nobody here (including me) thinks that he was ruined by Pujols HR.

Pete Rose understood baseball completely and totally.  

Especially the line on the game.

[Mr. Happy]

Paul- I'm of the opinion- and I might be full of shit, who knows, that you cannot ruin a special player. If a guy is going to be great he will overcome being overmatched- if it wasn't meant to be then it doesn't matter how he is treated.

I think Mays started out like 1 for 30 in his major league career.  Payton Manning threw 30 picks his rookie season. If you are gonna be a great one can't nothing stop that. I don't think you can be great in any sport (or any walk of life) without being top notch mentally strong. If you are that guy mentally then you can overcome any of that other stuff.

It's just my take on it, but I don't think you can ruin ultimately ruin greatness.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I was lucky enough to have played with and coached a precious few folks who had "it" but who did not make it due to career mismanagement by an organization. You can be brought along too fast.

[TangerineDream]

 Forget I said anything-I'm doing a piss poor job of explaining myself to yall- I suck  

No, you don't suck. You're just feeling backed into a corner. Shit happens.

...and now for something completely different....

[matadorph]

Well Hunter Pence just recorded his first put out of the 2007 AAA season, and he did it with flair. He caught a medium fly in cf and gunned down Corey Patterson's little brother at the plate. Right on the money.

[Mike]

Well Hunter Pence just recorded his first put out of the 2007 AAA season, and he did it with flair. He caught a medium fly in cf and gunned down Corey Patterson's little brother at the plate. Right on the money.

Just got his first AAA hit, a solo shot home run...

[Mr. Happy]

Tanks for the two Pence. He just needs to keep that up down there for awhile.

[austro]

Well Hunter Pence just recorded his first put out of the 2007 AAA season, and he did it with flair. He caught a medium fly in cf and gunned down Corey Patterson's little brother at the plate. Right on the money.

And last night he got his first should-have-been-an-error. Granted, it was pretty windy (and cold!), but on a fly hit to medium center, he started in, realized he screwed up, turned around, went back, did some Dancing-with-the-Stars pirouette, and fell down 5 feet from the ball. Of course, a couple of innings later, he hit his first home run.

Express didn't look particularly good last night. Bruntlett was especially shaky, with a ball he should have knocked down but didn't, a bobbled ground ball where he just managed to get the runner, and a dropped ground ball where he couldn't recover to get the runner. Ransom missed a ball that he should have knocked down at third (it wasn't an easy play, but he wound up diving over the top of it). Albers walked several and let the first run in on a wild pitch, and left after three innings and six runs. But it was an unpleasant night as the cold front blew in, and it probably wasn't conducive to good play.

The fire on top of the home run porch was exciting, however!

[Curly]

And last night he got his first should-have-been-an-error. Granted, it was pretty windy (and cold!), but on a fly hit to medium center, he started in, realized he screwed up, turned around, went back, did some Dancing-with-the-Stars pirouette, and fell down 5 feet from the ball. Of course, a couple of innings later, he hit his first home run.

Express didn't look particularly good last night. Bruntlett was especially shaky, with a ball he should have knocked down but didn't, a bobbled ground ball where he just managed to get the runner, and a dropped ground ball where he couldn't recover to get the runner. Ransom missed a ball that he should have knocked down at third (it wasn't an easy play, but he wound up diving over the top of it). Albers walked several and let the first run in on a wild pitch, and left after three innings and six runs. But it was an unpleasant night as the cold front blew in, and it probably wasn't conducive to good play.

The fire on top of the home run porch was exciting, however!

Agreed...looked pretty stiff all around last night.  I sat on the right field line last night for the first time in 7 years so view was a little different for me.  There were about 3 balls besides Pence's last night that looked like routine HRs, that hit the perverbial wall about 30 yards from the real wall.  They went deep in no time and then just got knocked down.  From my view, Pence had a line on the ball and then just about did a back flop trying to slow down for that ball.  I attibute it to the wind and leave it at that.  The Cubs had a couple of opportunities to send the runner from 3b on Pence but held them...hopefully it was out of respect for his arm.  Got myself a foulball last night over by the Hooters cart on one of my multiple trips upstairs taking the kiddos to the can.  The very next pitch landed in the same spot so my son was a little disappointed daddy didn't get two, but I had already started back down the stairs. 

Pences two strike swing looked really bad last night on two ABs.  Looked like he was really adjusting, "aiming" for a lack of a better term, and was almost at his knee on one at bat that resulted in a K.  But to me that looks like it is sinking in to be better with two strikes...I'll take that over the free swinging at this stage, and see how he starts to loosen up as the season goes.