Pence is starting

[pravata]

Lets see how he does against the big boys, Sniveler II is starting for the Mets.

[Andyzipp]

30 seconds after the game was over. Palillo was getting his Pence on...

"Hunter Pence is hitting .750. Hidalgo has done nothing. Jason Lane is doing okay.  If the Astros are serious about competing in Major League Baseball, there's no way Pence isn't starting in right field."

I was certain that the Astros were serious about competing in my D-Level Co-Rec Softball League tonight.  After listening to Palillo, I fear Hunter Pence may be overkill for that kind of action.

[Lefty]

Quote:
I fear Hunter Pence may be overkill for that kind of action.

Well, he certainly wouldn't be in right field.

I thought Palillo might have learned his lesson from his pimping of Zobrist over AE last year ("I guarantee Ben Zobrist is a better hitter than Adam Everett *right now*!").  Guess not.

[JimR]

tell him to check the recent story about spring phenom Scott, Luke.

[JackAstro]

Quote:
30 seconds after the game was over. Palillo was getting his Pence on...

"Hunter Pence is hitting .750. Hidalgo has done nothing. Jason Lane is doing okay.  If the Astros are serious about competing in Major League Baseball, there's no way Pence isn't starting in right field."

I was certain that the Astros were serious about competing in my D-Level Co-Rec Softball League tonight.  After listening to Palillo, I fear Hunter Pence may be overkill for that kind of action.

Your 2007 Houston Astros:

Code:

C  Ausmus            .500
1B Lane              .357
2B Biggio/Loretta    .375
3B Ensberg           .400
SS Manzella          .750
LF Lee               .667
CF Pence             .700
RF Palmeiro          .750

This team is going to be awesome. Let's go ahead and cancel the remainder of spring training, there's nothing more to learn here. Berkman should be waived immediately to pursue opportunities in Andy's beer league. I mean, .250? That's just not going to cut it, tubby. Thanks for the memories, but we're talking about competing in MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, my friend.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
30 seconds after the game was over. Palillo was getting his Pence on...

"Hunter Pence is hitting .750. Hidalgo has done nothing. Jason Lane is doing okay.  If the Astros are serious about competing in Major League Baseball, there's no way Pence isn't starting in right field."

I was certain that the Astros were serious about competing in my D-Level Co-Rec Softball League tonight.  After listening to Palillo, I fear Hunter Pence may be overkill for that kind of action.

Your 2007 Houston Astros:

Code:

C  Ausmus            .500
1B Lane              .357
2B Biggio/Loretta    .375
3B Ensberg           .400
SS Manzella          .750
LF Lee               .667
CF Pence             .700
RF Palmeiro          .750

This team is going to be awesome. Let's go ahead and cancel the remainder of spring training, there's nothing more to learn here. Berkman should be waived immediately to pursue opportunities in Andy's beer league. I mean, .250? That's just not going to cut it, tubby. Thanks for the memories, but we're talking about competing in MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, my friend.

Palillo is the worst kind of panderer.  The Chron baseball bloggers are no better.  They're all Gunther P E N C E, all the time.  Regurgitating the masses opinions.  We have little understanding and even less of a memory,

"Left fielder Luke Scott was sent to the minors May 3 (2005)  after hitting .154 with no home runs and one RBI in 39 at-bats." The Link

[Golden Sombrero]

Scott's strong spring earned him a shot in the majors.  It didn't work out the first time.  But he had earned that shot.  

If Pence continues to tear it up, maybe he will earn a shot as well.  Not a permanent stint, but an opportunity to show what he can do.  

Spring training has to have some kind of consequences for the roster.

[No? in Austin]

Pence's job is to make it hard for the Astros to say "no", because that is what they were inclined to do from day one of the invite to camp.  Same with Patton.  What folks forget with all the Pence talk is this:

Houston has to evaluate three guys for the position Pence would be an emergency callup.  That is three whole guys who are fighting for this job.  To dismiss them would be wrong, to give no chance because Pence is getting more work during spring is equally wrong.

So Pence is doing his job to open eyes and that is about the extent of what he should do.  He's also managed to make it harder of a decision, but soon he's going to have to realize that making the ballclub was never really what he was invited to camp to do.  The club should really see this for what it is: a three man race for possibly only one spot (maybe two but then you'd have to do something with Bruntlett at that point or Palmeiro).

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

AAA would be a great place for him to work some more to continue to open eyes and make everyone stand up and notice though.  He's been called by us as the next great hitting prospect since Lance Berkman, so none of this is about being down on Pence.  It is just about the realistic battle going on for the right field job right now and it isn't about Pence.  Sad to say to those of us who like Cinderella stories though.

[Golden Sombrero]

Quote:
Pence's job is to make it hard for the Astros to say "no", because that is what they were inclined to do from day one of the invite to camp.  Same with Patton.  What folks forget with all the Pence talk is this:

Houston has to evaluate three guys for the position Pence would be an emergency callup.  That is three whole guys who are fighting for this job.  To dismiss them would be wrong, to give no chance because Pence is getting more work during spring is equally wrong.

So Pence is doing his job to open eyes and that is about the extent of what he should do.  He's also managed to make it harder of a decision, but soon he's going to have to realize that making the ballclub was never really what he was invited to camp to do.  The club should really see this for what it is: a three man race for possibly only one spot (maybe two but then you'd have to do something with Bruntlett at that point or Palmeiro).

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

AAA would be a great place for him to work some more to continue to open eyes and make everyone stand up and notice though.  He's been called by us as the next great hitting prospect since Lance Berkman, so none of this is about being down on Pence.  It is just about the realistic battle going on for the right field job right now and it isn't about Pence.  Sad to say to those of us who like Cinderella stories though.

It's just too bad that the Astros don't make room for their prospects in the bigs until they are past the quarter century mark.  Do other teams have a similar problem?

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
Pence's job is to make it hard for the Astros to say "no", because that is what they were inclined to do from day one of the invite to camp.  Same with Patton.  What folks forget with all the Pence talk is this:

Houston has to evaluate three guys for the position Pence would be an emergency callup.  That is three whole guys who are fighting for this job.  To dismiss them would be wrong, to give no chance because Pence is getting more work during spring is equally wrong.

So Pence is doing his job to open eyes and that is about the extent of what he should do.  He's also managed to make it harder of a decision, but soon he's going to have to realize that making the ballclub was never really what he was invited to camp to do.  The club should really see this for what it is: a three man race for possibly only one spot (maybe two but then you'd have to do something with Bruntlett at that point or Palmeiro).

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

AAA would be a great place for him to work some more to continue to open eyes and make everyone stand up and notice though.  He's been called by us as the next great hitting prospect since Lance Berkman, so none of this is about being down on Pence.  It is just about the realistic battle going on for the right field job right now and it isn't about Pence.  Sad to say to those of us who like Cinderella stories though.

It's just too bad that the Astros don't make room for their prospects in the bigs until they are past the quarter century mark.  Do other teams have a similar problem?

Astros, probably 6 of their starting position players are from their minor league system.  3 of 5 starters, their closer and at least 2 other relievers are going to be from their system.  Astros make room for their prospects.  Name a team that has more players from their system on their major league team.  Then, name a team that has a better winning percentage during the past 10 years that have more players from their minors on the team.

[pravata]

Quote:
Scott's strong spring earned him a shot in the majors.  It didn't work out the first time.  But he had earned that shot.  

If Pence continues to tear it up, maybe he will earn a shot as well.  Not a permanent stint, but an opportunity to show what he can do.  

Spring training has to have some kind of consequences for the roster.

The issue is not whether Pence or Scott will eventually stay on the team.  The issue is whether the Astros should pay any attention to the media and the fans when making their decisions.  There was a big push for Scott to be on the roster in 2005.  There will be a big push for Pence.  Hopefully the Astros will consider the fans track record and let him play his first season in Round Rock.

[jaklewein]

Quote:

Quote:
Pence's job is to make it hard for the Astros to say "no", because that is what they were inclined to do from day one of the invite to camp.  Same with Patton.  What folks forget with all the Pence talk is this:

Houston has to evaluate three guys for the position Pence would be an emergency callup.  That is three whole guys who are fighting for this job.  To dismiss them would be wrong, to give no chance because Pence is getting more work during spring is equally wrong.

So Pence is doing his job to open eyes and that is about the extent of what he should do.  He's also managed to make it harder of a decision, but soon he's going to have to realize that making the ballclub was never really what he was invited to camp to do.  The club should really see this for what it is: a three man race for possibly only one spot (maybe two but then you'd have to do something with Bruntlett at that point or Palmeiro).

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

AAA would be a great place for him to work some more to continue to open eyes and make everyone stand up and notice though.  He's been called by us as the next great hitting prospect since Lance Berkman, so none of this is about being down on Pence.  It is just about the realistic battle going on for the right field job right now and it isn't about Pence.  Sad to say to those of us who like Cinderella stories though.

It's just too bad that the Astros don't make room for their prospects in the bigs until they are past the quarter century mark.  Do other teams have a similar problem?

I could be way off base here (surprise!), but that said...If there's one line of reasoning that fans tend to miss when looking at the promotion of an organization's prospects in relation to their age, it's the following (IMHO of course):  GMs must weigh a players worth to the team vs. starting the clock on a players MLB service time.  GMs are always managing the payroll game and because of that, it makes sense to wait as long as possible before promoting prospect X.  The closer a player is to producing at what will eventually be his peak performance...the more bang you're going to get for buck, and consequently, the better your team is going to be in terms of talent vs. payroll.  IMO, a prime example of this is Detroit SP Jeremy Bonderman.  Detroit promoted this kid when he was 20.  Last year was his 4th full season in the majors.  His ERAs during that span:  5.56 - 4.89 - 4.57 & 4.08 in 2006.  He improved in that category every season including career highs in wins, innings pitched and Ks.  Obviously no one will ever no for sure, but something tells me he'd of posted something close to an average between his 2005 and 2006 numbers if he'd of been promoted at the beginning of last season, and the Tigers would've been looking at controlling one the best young pitchers in baseball for the next 4-5 seasons on the cheap.  As it turns out, they signed him to a 4 year $38M extension this offseason.  My guess is that Pup would like nothing more than to let Pence spend all of 2007 in AAA growing as a player.  Just throwing this out there as food for thought.

[Golden Sombrero]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Pence's job is to make it hard for the Astros to say "no", because that is what they were inclined to do from day one of the invite to camp.  Same with Patton.  What folks forget with all the Pence talk is this:

Houston has to evaluate three guys for the position Pence would be an emergency callup.  That is three whole guys who are fighting for this job.  To dismiss them would be wrong, to give no chance because Pence is getting more work during spring is equally wrong.

So Pence is doing his job to open eyes and that is about the extent of what he should do.  He's also managed to make it harder of a decision, but soon he's going to have to realize that making the ballclub was never really what he was invited to camp to do.  The club should really see this for what it is: a three man race for possibly only one spot (maybe two but then you'd have to do something with Bruntlett at that point or Palmeiro).

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

AAA would be a great place for him to work some more to continue to open eyes and make everyone stand up and notice though.  He's been called by us as the next great hitting prospect since Lance Berkman, so none of this is about being down on Pence.  It is just about the realistic battle going on for the right field job right now and it isn't about Pence.  Sad to say to those of us who like Cinderella stories though.

It's just too bad that the Astros don't make room for their prospects in the bigs until they are past the quarter century mark.  Do other teams have a similar problem?

Astros, probably 6 of their starting position players are from their minor league system.  3 of 5 starters, their closer and at least 2 other relievers are going to be from their system.  Astros make room for their prospects.  Name a team that has more players from their system on their major league team.  Then, name a team that has a better winning percentage during the past 10 years that have more players from their minors on the team.

They make room for them after they fritter away a good part of their primes in the minors.

[TheRedSon]

 

Quote:
Astros, probably 6 of their starting position players are from their minor league system. 3 of 5 starters, their closer and at least 2 other relievers are going to be from their system. Astros make room for their prospects. Name a team that has more players from their system on their major league team. Then, name a team that has a better winning percentage during the past 10 years that have more players from their minors on the team.

Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, Brian McCann, Jeff Francoeur, Ryan Langerhans, Scott Thorman, Chuck James, Horacio Ramirez, Macay Mcbride, Kyle Davies, Joey Devine = 11

Craig Biggio, Lance Berkman, Morgan Ensberg, Chris Burke,  Roy Oswalt, Wandy Rodriguez, Fernando Nieve, Matt Albers, Chris Sampson, Brad Lidge, Chad Qualls = 11

They're pretty close on home grown talent.  The Braves have a better win % over the last ten years.

[mihoba]

Quote:

They make room for them after they fritter away a good part of their primes in the minors.

Bullshit. Maybe you should do a bit more research on player development. A while you're at it, check on a MLB players 'prime years.'

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Pence's job is to make it hard for the Astros to say "no", because that is what they were inclined to do from day one of the invite to camp.  Same with Patton.  What folks forget with all the Pence talk is this:

Houston has to evaluate three guys for the position Pence would be an emergency callup.  That is three whole guys who are fighting for this job.  To dismiss them would be wrong, to give no chance because Pence is getting more work during spring is equally wrong.

So Pence is doing his job to open eyes and that is about the extent of what he should do.  He's also managed to make it harder of a decision, but soon he's going to have to realize that making the ballclub was never really what he was invited to camp to do.  The club should really see this for what it is: a three man race for possibly only one spot (maybe two but then you'd have to do something with Bruntlett at that point or Palmeiro).

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

AAA would be a great place for him to work some more to continue to open eyes and make everyone stand up and notice though.  He's been called by us as the next great hitting prospect since Lance Berkman, so none of this is about being down on Pence.  It is just about the realistic battle going on for the right field job right now and it isn't about Pence.  Sad to say to those of us who like Cinderella stories though.

It's just too bad that the Astros don't make room for their prospects in the bigs until they are past the quarter century mark.  Do other teams have a similar problem?

Astros, probably 6 of their starting position players are from their minor league system.  3 of 5 starters, their closer and at least 2 other relievers are going to be from their system.  Astros make room for their prospects.  Name a team that has more players from their system on their major league team.  Then, name a team that has a better winning percentage during the past 10 years that have more players from their minors on the team.

I don't have numbers but I think the only team to come close is Minnesota.  I'm not saying they have a better winning % or more appearances in the playoffs.  Just that they follow a similar philosophy of "promote within".  That's one of the reasons it's easy to follow that team, they aren't a bunch of high-priced mercenaries, NTTAWT.  Oakland may be in the running, too, but I think Beane tends to capitalize on trades more than the Oakland system.

[Bench]

Quote:

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

That's a fantastic point, they are totally different situations.

One other thing: was Scott already on the 40 man in Spring '05? That's one thing that isn't mentioned with the "Pence HAS to be on the big club April 2" discussion.

Looking at the roster, Lane would have to be wiaved or traded for Pence to make the club. As we know from last year, Lane probably won't clear waivers, especially if he keeps making solid contact the rest of the Spring. It's pretty clear that the Astros do not want to just give up Lane, despite the fact how "obvious" doing just that is to Howard in Memorial.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

That's a fantastic point, they are totally different situations.

One other thing: was Scott already on the 40 man in Spring '05? That's one thing that isn't mentioned with the "Pence HAS to be on the big club April 2" discussion.

Looking at the roster, Lane would have to be wiaved or traded for Pence to make the club. As we know from last year, Lane probably won't clear waivers, especially if he keeps making solid contact the rest of the Spring. It's pretty clear that the Astros do not want to just give up Lane, despite the fact how "obvious" doing just that is to Howard in Memorial.

Jason Lane, MVP at every level, the guy the Astros had to find a spot for.  Is there even a glimmer of recognition as this stuff sluices through people's brains?

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
Astros, probably 6 of their starting position players are from their minor league system. 3 of 5 starters, their closer and at least 2 other relievers are going to be from their system. Astros make room for their prospects. Name a team that has more players from their system on their major league team. Then, name a team that has a better winning percentage during the past 10 years that have more players from their minors on the team.

Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, Brian McCann, Jeff Francoeur, Ryan Langerhans, Scott Thorman, Chuck James, Horacio Ramirez, Macay Mcbride, Kyle Davies, Joey Devine = 11

Craig Biggio, Lance Berkman, Morgan Ensberg, Chris Burke,  Roy Oswalt, Wandy Rodriguez, Fernando Nieve, Matt Albers, Chris Sampson, Brad Lidge, Chad Qualls = 11

They're pretty close on home grown talent.  The Braves have a better win % over the last ten years.

Braves, exactly right.  I hate the Braves.

[Bench]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

That's a fantastic point, they are totally different situations.

One other thing: was Scott already on the 40 man in Spring '05? That's one thing that isn't mentioned with the "Pence HAS to be on the big club April 2" discussion.

Looking at the roster, Lane would have to be wiaved or traded for Pence to make the club. As we know from last year, Lane probably won't clear waivers, especially if he keeps making solid contact the rest of the Spring. It's pretty clear that the Astros do not want to just give up Lane, despite the fact how "obvious" doing just that is to Howard in Memorial.

Jason Lane, MVP at every level, the guy the Astros had to find a spot for.  Is there even a glimmer of recognition as this stuff sluices through people's brains?

You don't understand, Prav. The Astros waited too long in bringing Lane to the majors, which is why he is now ruined.  We shouldn't make the same mistake twice.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Pence's job is to make it hard for the Astros to say "no", because that is what they were inclined to do from day one of the invite to camp.  Same with Patton.  What folks forget with all the Pence talk is this:

Houston has to evaluate three guys for the position Pence would be an emergency callup.  That is three whole guys who are fighting for this job.  To dismiss them would be wrong, to give no chance because Pence is getting more work during spring is equally wrong.

So Pence is doing his job to open eyes and that is about the extent of what he should do.  He's also managed to make it harder of a decision, but soon he's going to have to realize that making the ballclub was never really what he was invited to camp to do.  The club should really see this for what it is: a three man race for possibly only one spot (maybe two but then you'd have to do something with Bruntlett at that point or Palmeiro).

When Scott was doing his thing in spring, the field was wide open for a spot on the club as the left fielder.  Now, the job of right field has three candidates and Pence wasn't one of the three that was what anyone had in mind.

AAA would be a great place for him to work some more to continue to open eyes and make everyone stand up and notice though.  He's been called by us as the next great hitting prospect since Lance Berkman, so none of this is about being down on Pence.  It is just about the realistic battle going on for the right field job right now and it isn't about Pence.  Sad to say to those of us who like Cinderella stories though.

It's just too bad that the Astros don't make room for their prospects in the bigs until they are past the quarter century mark.  Do other teams have a similar problem?

Astros, probably 6 of their starting position players are from their minor league system.  3 of 5 starters, their closer and at least 2 other relievers are going to be from their system.  Astros make room for their prospects.  Name a team that has more players from their system on their major league team.  Then, name a team that has a better winning percentage during the past 10 years that have more players from their minors on the team.

They make room for them after they fritter away a good part of their primes in the minors.

Right, and that's what keeps the Astros from winning a World Series.

[JimR]

bullshit.

blog quality post.

[Rammer33]

I certainly think the club?s philosophy with pitchers has a good track record ? but I am not so sure on the hitters, although I don?t think its an issue of not promoting top prospects in a timely manner ... to me it seems its more an issue of an overall lack of top flight offensive talent compounded by good talent already holding positions at the Major league level ? I can?t really think of many (if any) position prospects that should have been up earlier (and the few who where delayed where delayed for reasons of positional log jams ? not any kind of philosophy of letting good players sit in the minors) ? I think some of the late promotions overall reflect a lack of top offensive talent in the system rather than a philosophy of delaying players promotions ? additionally (and I am completely guessing on this point) it seems the top offensive players in recent years have been college draftees which is not really going to put them in the bigs until 23 or 24 at the earliest ? Berkman  for instance was a top offensive prospect and came through the system pretty quickly ?

[Froback]

Quote:

Quote:
Astros, probably 6 of their starting position players are from their minor league system. 3 of 5 starters, their closer and at least 2 other relievers are going to be from their system. Astros make room for their prospects. Name a team that has more players from their system on their major league team. Then, name a team that has a better winning percentage during the past 10 years that have more players from their minors on the team.

Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, Brian McCann, Jeff Francoeur, Ryan Langerhans, Scott Thorman, Chuck James, Horacio Ramirez, Macay Mcbride, Kyle Davies, Joey Devine = 11

Craig Biggio, Lance Berkman, Morgan Ensberg, Chris Burke,  Roy Oswalt, Wandy Rodriguez, Fernando Nieve, Matt Albers, Chris Sampson, Brad Lidge, Chad Qualls = 11

They're pretty close on home grown talent.  The Braves have a better win % over the last ten years.

Be careful with the Braves comparison, they just brought up almost all of those guys in the last year or 2, when the team went on a MAJOR payroll reduction move.  And quite honestly that is when they started to go down hill.

The Astros as with most good teams, have less "open" spots for young guys to try to fit in.  Right now, Pence is playing exceptionally well, but because the Astros have alot of good talent, he is being squeezed out of a spot.  That should be a good sign, not a bad one.  Look at most of the teams that have alot of young guys making the majors.  You will find one of two reasons: 1) The team is terrible and thus most positions are "open"; or 2) The team is unable to keep a high payroll, thus meaning they need more young (read as cheap) players and cannot afford to keep good players once they run out the club control years.

The Astros have one of the highest payrolls and they don't suck.  So there is less opportunities for players.  Look at Chris Burke.  He was probably ready for ML time 2 years ago, but Biggio was blocking him.  So the team made the most of what time they could give him.  The real road block to Pence isn't Scott, it was the signing of Carlos Lee.  Now who would you rather have: Proven 30/100 guy, or potential 30/100 guy?  Right now the Astros have chosen proven.  Hunter will get his opportunity, and his performance now, will lead to that opportunity this year (if I had to guess).  Because, unfortunately most teams don't stay healthy, and as has been pointed out the person who wins the LF job will probably be the ONLY person fighting for it to remain with the club.  Thus Hunter will instantly become the primary back-up should that person (or any OFer) go down due to injury.

So relax.  Pence is not going anywhere, and will be an Astro at some point (unless something unforseen happens).

[pravata]

Quote:
I certainly think the club?s philosophy with pitchers has a good track record ? but I am not so sure on the hitters, although I don?t think its an issue of not promoting top prospects in a timely manner ... to me it seems its more an issue of an overall lack of top flight offensive talent compounded by good talent already holding positions at the Major league level ? I can?t really think of many (if any) position prospects that should have been up earlier (and the few who where delayed where delayed for reasons of positional log jams ? not any kind of philosophy of letting good players sit in the minors) ? I think some of the late promotions overall reflect a lack of top offensive talent in the system rather than a philosophy of delaying players promotions ? additionally (and I am completely guessing on this point) it seems the top offensive players in recent years have been college draftees which is not really going to put them in the bigs until 23 or 24 at the earliest ? Berkman  for instance was a top offensive prospect and came through the system pretty quickly ?

I don't think the Astros system can take too much credit for Lance Berkman. Other than staying out of his way.

[Rammer33]

Quote:

Quote:
I certainly think the club?s philosophy with pitchers has a good track record ? but I am not so sure on the hitters, although I don?t think its an issue of not promoting top prospects in a timely manner ... to me it seems its more an issue of an overall lack of top flight offensive talent compounded by good talent already holding positions at the Major league level ? I can?t really think of many (if any) position prospects that should have been up earlier (and the few who where delayed where delayed for reasons of positional log jams ? not any kind of philosophy of letting good players sit in the minors) ? I think some of the late promotions overall reflect a lack of top offensive talent in the system rather than a philosophy of delaying players promotions ? additionally (and I am completely guessing on this point) it seems the top offensive players in recent years have been college draftees which is not really going to put them in the bigs until 23 or 24 at the earliest ? Berkman  for instance was a top offensive prospect and came through the system pretty quickly ?

I don't think the Astros system can take too much credit for Lance Berkman. Other than staying out of his way.

I agree with you there ...

[TheRedSon]

 

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Be careful with the Braves comparison, they just brought up almost all of those guys in the last year or 2, when the team went on a MAJOR payroll reduction move. And quite honestly that is when they started to go down hill.

The Astros as with most good teams, have less "open" spots for young guys to try to fit in. Right now, Pence is playing exceptionally well, but because the Astros have alot of good talent, he is being squeezed out of a spot. That should be a good sign, not a bad one. Look at most of the teams that have alot of young guys making the majors. You will find one of two reasons: 1) The team is terrible and thus most positions are "open"; or 2) The team is unable to keep a high payroll, thus meaning they need more young (read as cheap) players and cannot afford to keep good players once they run out the club control years.

The Astros have one of the highest payrolls and they don't suck. So there is less opportunities for players. Look at Chris Burke. He was probably ready for ML time 2 years ago, but Biggio was blocking him. So the team made the most of what time they could give him. The real road block to Pence isn't Scott, it was the signing of Carlos Lee. Now who would you rather have: Proven 30/100 guy, or potential 30/100 guy? Right now the Astros have chosen proven. Hunter will get his opportunity, and his performance now, will lead to that opportunity this year (if I had to guess). Because, unfortunately most teams don't stay healthy, and as has been pointed out the person who wins the LF job will probably be the ONLY person fighting for it to remain with the club. Thus Hunter will instantly become the primary back-up should that person (or any OFer) go down due to injury.

So relax. Pence is not going anywhere, and will be an Astro at some point (unless something unforseen happens).  

I wasn't arguing to get Pence on the team immediately...  Just that the Braves are the only organization that continuously uses as much or more home grown talent as the Astros (I looked at the Twins too and I think they'll have about 8 regulars they found or drafted themselves this year).  I can't believe I'm actually defending the Braves, but they had even more of their own guys on the team when they were winning division titles.  They've traded away or allowed to leave via free agency a lot of guys they developed in the last two years (LaRoche, Giles, Betament, Furcal...).

I think Pence needs to be sent down based on what I know today.  I think the Astros' would be better with him in April than any of their other options, but it would be a shame to lose Jason Lane's services simply for Pence to get 50 ABs splitting time with Burke and Scott.

[No? in Austin]

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I think Pence needs to be sent down based on what I know today.  I think the Astros' would be better with him in April than any of their other options, but it would be a shame to lose Jason Lane's services simply for Pence to get 50 ABs splitting time with Burke and Scott.

EGGSZACTLY!  If Hunter Pence was one of two guys working this spring (and remember, he was a NRI for the Astros), the very idea that he is like Scott and quite possibly *winning* a job would be pertinent.  He's not one of two, he is one of four, and the other three have to be given legitmate shots to win the position.  Pence is not a CF, he's a RF.  If he is to become a CF, then he most certainly should be in AAA working on it.  He worked hard in Corpus Christi to become an above average RF.  He will tell you it took time and effort to adjust to the position.

Asking him to play CF in the majors right now, a position he's rarely played in his career is *worse* than asking a veteran like Biggio to try it.  And that time in center could effect his ability to hit the baseball at the major league level.  Houston has to play this correctly and give Pence every chance to work hard in AAA as a CF if that is where they want to pencil him in.  If not and RF is where he should be, then don't make a mockery out of giving three guys a chance for the job because then you're not really serious about giving them that chance.  It was going to be hard enough with Hidalgo being invited to camp, but to add Pence into the list of legit RF candidates makes it a mockery in terms of giving each man his shot at the job.

[Foghorn]

Pence may be ready for the majors, but spending time in AAA isn't going to be damaging.  I think he clearly needs to be playing everyday, and he won't get that in the majors in 2007 unless:  (a)  Burke goes down, (b) RF is a train wreck, or (c) the team starts 0-21 and are playing for next year already in May.

Luke Scott played great last year in about half a season's worth of ABs.  Lets see what he can full time.  If he is even 80% of what he was last year, the Astros will be in great shape.

[Golden Sombrero]

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bullshit.

blog quality post.

Astros.com has a message board.  Perhaps you'd feel more at home there.

[Jacksonian]

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Pence may be ready for the majors, but spending time in AAA isn't going to be damaging.  I think he clearly needs to be playing everyday, and he won't get that in the majors in 2007 unless:  (a)  Burke goes down, (b) RF is a train wreck, or (c) the team starts 0-21 and are playing for next year already in May.

Luke Scott played great last year in about half a season's worth of ABs.  Lets see what he can full time.  If he is even 80% of what he was last year, the Astros will be in great shape.

I'm not convinced Pence is ready for the majors.  We know ST stats are meaningless. If you look at Pence's work at the plate last year at AA you'll see he started the season on fire, then slumped horribly, then hit for a fair average finishing with a .283 average.  The power is always there, but IMO he's got to show he can consistently hit better pitching rather than being so hot and cold.

[Ty in Tampa]

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bullshit.

blog quality post.

Astros.com has a message board.  Perhaps you'd feel more at home there.

The absurdity of this has me knocked off of my chair.

[No? in Austin]

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The power is always there, but IMO he's got to show he can consistently hit better pitching rather than being so hot and cold.

See: Lane, Jason

[Golden Sombrero]

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bullshit.

blog quality post.

Astros.com has a message board.  Perhaps you'd feel more at home there.

The absurdity of this has me knocked off of my chair.

I hope you didn't hurt yourself, or I could get sued by one of the myriad lawyers on this board masquerading as Astros fans.

[VirtualBob]

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bullshit.

blog quality post.

Astros.com has a message board.  Perhaps you'd feel more at home there.

The absurdity of this has me knocked off of my chair.

I hope you didn't hurt yourself, or I could get sued by one of the myriad lawyers on this board masquerading as Astros fans.

After this last exchange,I had to check:

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Quite possibly the poster who adds the least 'round these parts...  

 the link

An apt insight.

[Golden Sombrero]

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After this last exchange,I had to check:

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Quite possibly the poster who adds the least 'round these parts...  

 the link

An apt insight.

Yes, unlike the vast majority of the blowhards on this site, I don't take myself too seriously.

[WulawHorn]

Mentioned above, but my biggest pet peeve is people not understanding the reprucussions of the service time clock.

The longer you wait, the greater chance the player will enter MLB major league ready, and the greater chance you maximize his ability while paying him a minimum salary.

Players are aware of this dynamic as well, so it is a bit of a tug of war.  Also you want to play your best players so you promote when ready, but there are payroll implications to promoting too soon- and little to no downside to promoting too late...

[MusicMan]

This is all a complete misunderstanding.  Absent any supporting evidence to indicate that the Astros are losing *production* from these players, I am left to assume that Sr. Sombrero's complaint was that the Astros are wasting these players sexual primes.

[No? in Austin]

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Mentioned above, but my biggest pet peeve is people not understanding the reprucussions of the service time clock.

The longer you wait, the greater chance the player will enter MLB major league ready, and the greater chance you maximize his ability while paying him a minimum salary.

Players are aware of this dynamic as well, so it is a bit of a tug of war.  Also you want to play your best players so you promote when ready, but there are payroll implications to promoting too soon- and little to no downside to promoting too late...

I don't believe, IMHO of course, that service time is part of the equation for Pence.  If he's ready, he's ready.  But I do believe that Scott, Lane and to an extent Hidalgo are what Pence is looking at, along with Burke, Palmeiro and Bruntlett.  Since Pence should never be considered for a major league bench gig, the list is whittled down somewhat.  But those on the list mentioned are also good candidates for other jobs on the team.  A role player gig.

So given all those parameters, you want to get a really good look from all those players and Pence getting a chance early to open eyes and make everyone feel good about what is ready to help in case of emergency in AAA is what this is all about (IMHO again).  But as time goes on, and barring a trade of one or two players, Pence will see he has little time left to impress beyond that because Scott will need the ABs, so will Hidalgo, so will Palmeiro, so will Lane, so will Bruntlett, so will Lee.

Pence needs to go work at a CF job in AAA to help this club this year (yes, this year) in case of an emergency need.

[toddthebod]

 

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 We know ST stats are meaningless

I was going through Ron Shandler's baseball forecaster and he cites a statistical study by John Dewan that "[a] hitter with a positive difference between his spring training slugging percentage and his lifetime slugging percentage of .200 or more correlates to a better than normal season."  

I don't know what "better than normal" means, and I haven't seen the study itself.  I'm just throwing this out there because this study might contradict the notion that spring training statistics are meaningless.

[pravata]

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Mentioned above, but my biggest pet peeve is people not understanding the reprucussions of the service time clock.

The longer you wait, the greater chance the player will enter MLB major league ready, and the greater chance you maximize his ability while paying him a minimum salary.

Players are aware of this dynamic as well, so it is a bit of a tug of war.  Also you want to play your best players so you promote when ready, but there are payroll implications to promoting too soon- and little to no downside to promoting too late...

I don't believe, IMHO of course, that service time is part of the equation for Pence.  If he's ready, he's ready.  But I do believe that Scott, Lane and to an extent Hidalgo are what Pence is looking at, along with Burke, Palmeiro and Bruntlett.  Since Pence should never be considered for a major league bench gig, the list is whittled down somewhat.  But those on the list mentioned are also good candidates for other jobs on the team.  A role player gig.

So given all those parameters, you want to get a really good look from all those players and Pence getting a chance early to open eyes and make everyone feel good about what is ready to help in case of emergency in AAA is what this is all about (IMHO again).  But as time goes on, and barring a trade of one or two players, Pence will see he has little time left to impress beyond that because Scott will need the ABs, so will Hidalgo, so will Palmeiro, so will Lane, so will Bruntlett, so will Lee.

Pence needs to go work at a CF job in AAA to help this club this year (yes, this year) in case of an emergency need.

Now you're getting into Grassy Knoll type conspiracy theory.  Garner's decision in RF will be between Scott, Lane and Hidalgo.  To make that decision he must play those players.  Burke will get the time in CF. Because he will be the starting CF.  That leaves LF, Carlos Lee could go through ST as the DH but I doubt Garner wants to do that with Lee.  So, there it is, Garner didn't play Pence because he didn't want to be pressured into putting him in the OD lineup.

[No? in Austin]

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Now you're getting into Grassy Knoll type conspiracy theory.  Garner's decision in RF will be between Scott, Lane and Hidalgo.  To make that decision he must play those players.  Burke will get the time in CF. Because he will be the starting CF.  That leaves LF, Carlos Lee could go through ST as the DH but I doubt Garner wants to do that with Lee.  So, there it is, Garner didn't play Pence because he didn't want to be pressured into putting him in the OD lineup.

Damnit!  You're on to me!

Seriously though, what is missing in the passionate pleas and opinions for Pence to start (service time, non service time, age, beauty, how he looks in a swimsuit, et. al.) is that it's fanbased and even media based opinions.  None of those opinions have baseball organizational strategy in mind nor even remotely considers the options available.

In short, it's not about what would *I* do, it's about what would any sane MLB club would do.  If you want to play a guy when he's 21 or 22, or 28, you can be sure it's not globally strategic nor philosophical.  It is usually based on options at hand and what is the reasonable thing to do given those options.  A very clean and simple way to look at it, even though I'm sure some would love to see Pence in a speedo sorta speak.

[Bench]

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even though I'm sure some would love to see Pence in a speedo sorta speak.

I could do without hearing Milo regularly exclaim, "that stride, that stride, LOOK AT THAT STRIDE!!!"

[MikeyBoy]

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I'm not convinced Pence is ready for the majors.  We know ST stats are meaningless. If you look at Pence's work at the plate last year at AA you'll see he started the season on fire, then slumped horribly, then hit for a fair average finishing with a .283 average.  The power is always there, but IMO he's got to show he can consistently hit better pitching rather than being so hot and cold.

I'm not saying you're wrong about consistency, but didn't the Astros tinker with Pence's mechanics last season? If I recall correctly, the organization was trying to get Hunter to put his front foot down faster, which could have negatively affected his numbers.

[VirtualBob]

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even though I'm sure some would love to see Pence in a speedo sorta speak.

I could do without hearing Milo regularly exclaim, "that stride, that stride, LOOK AT THAT STRIDE!!!"

You went on way too long with that comment.  I would have edited it for clarity:

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I could do without hearing Milo period

[Jacksonian]

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 We know ST stats are meaningless

I was going through Ron Shandler's baseball forecaster and he cites a statistical study by John Dewan that "[a] hitter with a positive difference between his spring training slugging percentage and his lifetime slugging percentage of .200 or more correlates to a better than normal season."  

I don't know what "better than normal" means, and I haven't seen the study itself.  I'm just throwing this out there because this study might contradict the notion that spring training statistics are meaningless.

Context.  Were minor leaguers facing early major league ST pitchers included?  And, if so, were they parsed out for study?

[geezerdonk]

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I hope you didn't hurt yourself, or I could get sued by one of the myriad lawyers on this board masquerading as Astros fans.

Or an Astro fan masquerading as a myriad lawyer.

[Golden Sombrero]

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I hope you didn't hurt yourself, or I could get sued by one of the myriad lawyers on this board masquerading as Astros fans.

Or an Astro fan masquerading as a myriad lawyer.

That's not too far off the mark.

[WulawHorn]

Noe- I generally agree with what you are saying about Pence this year and his spring training- spot on as usual.

To say, however, that an organization does not factor in service time when making decisions is ludicrous (sp) in my opinion.

I'm not saying that service time is a deal breaker, ever, as if you need them, or they are ready, you need them or they are ready and they get the call.  I'm saying to think it isn't considered is a strange comment.

Really, what I'm getting at w/ the service time statement is that fans are idiots- and they don't think about things like this. A normal guys best career peak comes between about 25 and 32.  Calling a guy up on a whim or a flier if he's not ready at 20 years old has long term financial implications:  See Bonderman, Jeremy (and perhaps developmental implications, but I tend to think that if a guys special you can't ruin him- he will shine eventually regardless of when he plays, but you might have to pay him a LOT more when he gets to star level).

The astros waiting to make a call up until they are SURE (or as sure as they can be) that a guy is ready to succeed has 2 benefits:

1) the guy succeeds and you aren't losing games getting him on the job training
&
2) you aren't wasting the time where he is cheap to the club on sub par performance.

If he's ready, he's ready, but I think fans miss out on this all the time.  There is little downside to being too conservative as opposed to to hasty from a financial or performance perspective.

[toddthebod]

Jacksonian.  I am only quoting what Shandler has in his book.  I can't tell you anything else because I haven't seen the study he is talking about.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Noe- I generally agree with what you are saying about Pence this year and his spring training- spot on as usual.

To say, however, that an organization does not factor in service time when making decisions is ludicrous (sp) in my opinion.

I'm not saying that service time is a deal breaker, ever, as if you need them, or they are ready, you need them or they are ready and they get the call.  I'm saying to think it isn't considered is a strange comment.

Really, what I'm getting at w/ the service time statement is that fans are idiots- and they don't think about things like this. A normal guys best career peak comes between about 25 and 32.  Calling a guy up on a whim or a flier if he's not ready at 20 years old has long term financial implications:  See Bonderman, Jeremy (and perhaps developmental implications, but I tend to think that if a guys special you can't ruin him- he will shine eventually regardless of when he plays, but you might have to pay him a LOT more when he gets to star level).

The astros waiting to make a call up until they are SURE (or as sure as they can be) that a guy is ready to succeed has 2 benefits:

1) the guy succeeds and you aren't losing games getting him on the job training
&
2) you aren't wasting the time where he is cheap to the club on sub par performance.

If he's ready, he's ready, but I think fans miss out on this all the time.  There is little downside to being too conservative as opposed to to hasty from a financial or performance perspective.

I did not claim they do not use that as a factor in the decision to call up.  I simply said that the team waits too long to do so.  Part of this is due to the presence of legends on the team (no wonder that Burke has had to wait given Biggio, until now that a new spot opened up), part is due to extreme loyalty to a player.  If a player has been given ample opportunties to prove himself at the big league level and hasn't (Jason Lane), perhaps it's time to let him go and see what other prospects can do.

ETA And if Lane had been given a shot a long time ago, we would have known he wasn't going to work out.  Instead it's a long term deal where the team feels now they owe it to hiim since they made him wait so long for his chance.  

[Jacksonian]

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Jacksonian.  I am only quoting what Shandler has in his book.  I can't tell you anything else because I haven't seen the study he is talking about.

I was just pointing out that one stat given in isolation says nothing.

[No? in Austin]

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To say, however, that an organization does not factor in service time when making decisions is ludicrous (sp) in my opinion.

I was talking *specifically* about Pence, not about a *generally* philosophy or strategy to handle the minor league players.  You play them when they're ready regardless of what service time says or not.  If it's 21 years of age or 17 or 28, doesn't matter, if they're ready and you have a spot, you give them the job.  What is in play with Pence (and he alone is who I was talking about when it came to service time), the factors are not about service time, it's about the other factors involved.

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I'm not saying that service time is a deal breaker, ever, as if you need them, or they are ready, you need them or they are ready and they get the call.  I'm saying to think it isn't considered is a strange comment.

But you're not talking about what I said, but what you *think* I said.  You're barking up the wrong tree here.

[No? in Austin]

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Noe- I generally agree with what you are saying about Pence this year and his spring training- spot on as usual.

To say, however, that an organization does not factor in service time when making decisions is ludicrous (sp) in my opinion.

I'm not saying that service time is a deal breaker, ever, as if you need them, or they are ready, you need them or they are ready and they get the call.  I'm saying to think it isn't considered is a strange comment.

Really, what I'm getting at w/ the service time statement is that fans are idiots- and they don't think about things like this. A normal guys best career peak comes between about 25 and 32.  Calling a guy up on a whim or a flier if he's not ready at 20 years old has long term financial implications:  See Bonderman, Jeremy (and perhaps developmental implications, but I tend to think that if a guys special you can't ruin him- he will shine eventually regardless of when he plays, but you might have to pay him a LOT more when he gets to star level).

The astros waiting to make a call up until they are SURE (or as sure as they can be) that a guy is ready to succeed has 2 benefits:

1) the guy succeeds and you aren't losing games getting him on the job training
&
2) you aren't wasting the time where he is cheap to the club on sub par performance.

If he's ready, he's ready, but I think fans miss out on this all the time.  There is little downside to being too conservative as opposed to to hasty from a financial or performance perspective.

I did not claim they do not use that as a factor in the decision to call up.  I simply said that the team waits too long to do so.  Part of this is due to the presence of legends on the team (no wonder that Burke has had to wait given Biggio, until now that a new spot opened up), part is due to extreme loyalty to a player.  If a player has been given ample opportunties to prove himself at the big league level and hasn't (Jason Lane), perhaps it's time to let him go and see what other prospects can do.

ETA And if Lane had been given a shot a long time ago, we would have known he wasn't going to work out.  Instead it's a long term deal where the team feels now they owe it to hiim since they made him wait so long for his chance.  

I thought he was talking to me.  Did I interupt a conversation between you two that has absolutely nothing to do with Pence and everything to do with both your perceptions about the Houston Astros as an organization?

If so, sorry I got involved, I thought this was about Pence.  My bad.

[Jacksonian]

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Noe- I generally agree with what you are saying about Pence this year and his spring training- spot on as usual.

To say, however, that an organization does not factor in service time when making decisions is ludicrous (sp) in my opinion.

I'm not saying that service time is a deal breaker, ever, as if you need them, or they are ready, you need them or they are ready and they get the call.  I'm saying to think it isn't considered is a strange comment.

Really, what I'm getting at w/ the service time statement is that fans are idiots- and they don't think about things like this. A normal guys best career peak comes between about 25 and 32.  Calling a guy up on a whim or a flier if he's not ready at 20 years old has long term financial implications:  See Bonderman, Jeremy (and perhaps developmental implications, but I tend to think that if a guys special you can't ruin him- he will shine eventually regardless of when he plays, but you might have to pay him a LOT more when he gets to star level).

The astros waiting to make a call up until they are SURE (or as sure as they can be) that a guy is ready to succeed has 2 benefits:

1) the guy succeeds and you aren't losing games getting him on the job training
&
2) you aren't wasting the time where he is cheap to the club on sub par performance.

If he's ready, he's ready, but I think fans miss out on this all the time.  There is little downside to being too conservative as opposed to to hasty from a financial or performance perspective.

I did not claim they do not use that as a factor in the decision to call up.  I simply said that the team waits too long to do so.  Part of this is due to the presence of legends on the team (no wonder that Burke has had to wait given Biggio, until now that a new spot opened up), part is due to extreme loyalty to a player.  If a player has been given ample opportunties to prove himself at the big league level and hasn't (Jason Lane), perhaps it's time to let him go and see what other prospects can do.

Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Noe- I generally agree with what you are saying about Pence this year and his spring training- spot on as usual.

To say, however, that an organization does not factor in service time when making decisions is ludicrous (sp) in my opinion.

I'm not saying that service time is a deal breaker, ever, as if you need them, or they are ready, you need them or they are ready and they get the call.  I'm saying to think it isn't considered is a strange comment.

Really, what I'm getting at w/ the service time statement is that fans are idiots- and they don't think about things like this. A normal guys best career peak comes between about 25 and 32.  Calling a guy up on a whim or a flier if he's not ready at 20 years old has long term financial implications:  See Bonderman, Jeremy (and perhaps developmental implications, but I tend to think that if a guys special you can't ruin him- he will shine eventually regardless of when he plays, but you might have to pay him a LOT more when he gets to star level).

The astros waiting to make a call up until they are SURE (or as sure as they can be) that a guy is ready to succeed has 2 benefits:

1) the guy succeeds and you aren't losing games getting him on the job training
&
2) you aren't wasting the time where he is cheap to the club on sub par performance.

If he's ready, he's ready, but I think fans miss out on this all the time.  There is little downside to being too conservative as opposed to to hasty from a financial or performance perspective.

I did not claim they do not use that as a factor in the decision to call up.  I simply said that the team waits too long to do so.  Part of this is due to the presence of legends on the team (no wonder that Burke has had to wait given Biggio, until now that a new spot opened up), part is due to extreme loyalty to a player.  If a player has been given ample opportunties to prove himself at the big league level and hasn't (Jason Lane), perhaps it's time to let him go and see what other prospects can do.

ETA And if Lane had been given a shot a long time ago, we would have known he wasn't going to work out.  Instead it's a long term deal where the team feels now they owe it to hiim since they made him wait so long for his chance.  

I thought he was talking to me.  Did I interupt a conversation between you two that has absolutely nothing to do with Pence and everything to do with both your perceptions about the Houston Astros as an organization?

If so, sorry I got involved, I thought this was about Pence.  My bad.

No, he addressed it to you.  It is related to what I said initially though so I included myself.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

[JimR]

bullshit.

[Jacksonian]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

Bzzzt.  The Indians had him at AA at age 25 in 2003.  He wasn't all that in their org up to then.  The Astros had him in high-A and AA in 2004.  That was the only season Scott spent the entire year in the Astros minors.  In 2005 he got his shot.  In 2006 he made his mark.

[No? in Austin]

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No, he addressed it to you.  It is related to what I said initially though so I included myself.

Point remains, this is absolutely not about Pence and everything about both your perspectives on how the Houston Astros run their organizations (philosophically).

I will bow out of that one because I wouldn't have a clue what the mad scientist do behind the curtains when it comes to service time.

[Golden Sombrero]

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bullshit.

Thank you for your brilliant analysis.  You know, your posts go so far in correcting misconceptions and imparting your vast baseball knowledge.  

You say you know so much about the sport.  I believe that.  One of the reasons I come here is to try to learn more about the sport I love.  And to try to have fun, although posters like you don't seem to understand that talking baseball is supposed to be enjoyable, not like doing work.  

Why not take the time to make this site truly better, and to try to elevate the discourse, rather than resort to terse remarks that do nothing more than make you appear like a bitter and supercilious jerk.

[No? in Austin]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

Take that gripe up with the Cleveland Indians and Mark Shapiro, they were the ones who held him back during his development, not the Astros.

[Jacksonian]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

Take that gripe up with the Cleveland Indians and Mark Shapiro, they were the ones who held him back during his development, not the Astros.

It's not as if Scott lit up the minors after being drafted out of college.  He really didn't give the outfield prospect laden Indians a reason to move him quickly up their system.

[Ty in Tampa]

Why do you only reply to Jim when at least 2 others have countered your claim that Scott was held back by the Astros?

Your obsession is showing.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

Take that gripe up with the Cleveland Indians and Mark Shapiro, they were the ones who held him back during his development, not the Astros.

Thanks to you and Jacksonian for the info.  I appreciate it.  You know, people do like to learn things, and there is a sort of  noblisse oblige on those who know things to try to teach that, especially in a message board format.  that's why they exist, after all.  

It is much better to share knowledge than to try to use it to differentiate yourself from the ignorant masses so as to feel superior to them.  That's my main problem with the site.  We have posters come here who could then take info and call into sports radio.  Instead they are chased away.  It's like the board wants to be an unpleasant place.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Why do you only reply to Jim when at least 2 others have countered your claim that Scott was held back by the Astros?

Your obsession is showing.

My obessession is that JimR is the quintessential poster on here--he knows a lot but would rather use his knowledge as a weapon than as a tool.  He could be so much more than a minor villain.    

To the other posters who pointed out something, that is what I want.  That should be what a fan message board is about.  People having fun talking about baseball and learning from each other at the same time.

[Ty in Tampa]

Why then don't you ignore him instead of biting his ankles with the lawyer crack?

[No? in Austin]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

Take that gripe up with the Cleveland Indians and Mark Shapiro, they were the ones who held him back during his development, not the Astros.

It's not as if Scott lit up the minors after being drafted out of college.  He really didn't give the outfield prospect laden Indians a reason to move him quickly up their system.

EGGSZACTLY!  Scott is the proverbial late bloomer that comes along in the minors sometimes.  Had anyone mentioned Brooks Conrad though, we'd maybe have to talk a little sumptin' sumptin' here.  (*ducking*)

[Golden Sombrero]

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Why then don't you ignore him instead of biting his ankles with the lawyer crack?

Why should I ignore him?  What if he does decide to say something of substance?  I wanted to get him to respond in a meaningful way, so I started doing the same thing he does to everyone--provocation.  

Besides, what do you care?  Are you his vizier or something?

[No? in Austin]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

Take that gripe up with the Cleveland Indians and Mark Shapiro, they were the ones who held him back during his development, not the Astros.

Thanks to you and Jacksonian for the info.  I appreciate it.  You know, people do like to learn things, and there is a sort of  noblisse oblige on those who know things to try to teach that, especially in a message board format.  that's why they exist, after all.  

It is much better to share knowledge than to try to use it to differentiate yourself from the ignorant masses so as to feel superior to them.  That's my main problem with the site.  We have posters come here who could then take info and call into sports radio.  Instead they are chased away.  It's like the board wants to be an unpleasant place.

Not the board, nor the OWA, nor the site if you're talking about specifics.  You need to employ judgement, good humor and the ever popular ignore feature to allow what you want  *this* place to be for *you* to become.  We are trying beyond the human factor to provide technology to make it a personalized OWA for you (as in "you" in the general sense).  Make use of the customization features to clear the things that are personally unpleasant for yourself and you'll be fine.

Is that an answer to your actual concern?

[Ty in Tampa]

I could give two shits. You whining hurts my ears, though.

[jaklewein]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

Take that gripe up with the Cleveland Indians and Mark Shapiro, they were the ones who held him back during his development, not the Astros.

It's not as if Scott lit up the minors after being drafted out of college.  He really didn't give the outfield prospect laden Indians a reason to move him quickly up their system.

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Scott missed a season of ball in the single-A due to having to have Tommy John surgery.

[No? in Austin]

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I wanted to get him to respond in a meaningful way...

If you want to ask Jim for a date, you have to promise him dinner first... just saying. (*ducking again!*)

[Golden Sombrero]

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[Not the board, nor the OWA, nor the site if you're talking about specifics.  You need to employ judgement, good humor and the every popular ignore feature to allow what you want  *this* place to be for *you* to become.  We are trying beyond the human factor to provide technology to make it a personalized OWA for you (as in "you" in the general sense).  Make use of the customization features to clear the things that are personally unpleasant for yourself and you'll be fine.

Is that an answer to your actual concern?

No.  It is not just for me that I raise this issue, but for every poster who probably feels the same way (I imagine many not of the Pope faction).  And for all the Clarks who could have become a welcome addition who were chased away.      

I don't want to just change it for myself if it means the system is not fixed.  Nor do I want to go away, as there is much on the site worth sticking around for.  Instead, I'd rather try to let it be known what I think and perhaps things will change.  Perhaps not.  

I think good humor would go a long way.  And not only good humor on the receiving end.

[Golden Sombrero]

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I wanted to get him to respond in a meaningful way...

If you want to ask Jim for a date, you have to promise him dinner first... just saying. (*ducking again!*)

NTTAWWT

[WulawHorn]

Noe-

I admittedly don't know if the Astros consider service time at all when making a decision. I know that I have seen/read multiple major league GM's and former GM's explain that you have to consider starting a kid's service time clock when deciding whether or not to call him up.  I assume the astros consider this as well.  I was speaking generally when I chimed in at first, and thought I had made that clear (thinking I even used the word generally it has to be considered).

I agree with you completely on the Pence subject and wasn't bringing that up, but by the time I thought the thread had evolved past the specific (pence) into general terms (astros bury their minor leaguers).

To say that the Astros buried Luke Scott is preposterous.  Luke was already old (by prospect standards) coming into the Astros organization by his age/league level. The Astros are solid with Luke.

I can probably count on one hand the guys I thought that the astros were being too cautious with in development.

One I was absolutely sure we needed to see earlier at the MLB level was Tim Redding- so obviously, I am an idiot.

[No? in Austin]

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[Not the board, nor the OWA, nor the site if you're talking about specifics.  You need to employ judgement, good humor and the every popular ignore feature to allow what you want  *this* place to be for *you* to become.  We are trying beyond the human factor to provide technology to make it a personalized OWA for you (as in "you" in the general sense).  Make use of the customization features to clear the things that are personally unpleasant for yourself and you'll be fine.

Is that an answer to your actual concern?

No.  It is not just for me that I raise this issue, but for every poster who probably feels the same way (I imagine many not of the Pope faction).  And for all the Clarks who could have become a welcome addition who were chased away.      

I don't want to just change it for myself if it means the system is not fixed.  Nor do I want to go away, as there is much on the site worth sticking around for.  Instead, I'd rather try to let it be known what I think and perhaps things will change.  Perhaps not.  

I think good humor would go a long way.  And not only good humor on the receiving end.

<soapbox>

But the perception of the one or two people in only a portion of the entire site (the TZ is *NOT* the OWA - this irks me to no end to hear!) does not an entire site make.  This is a huge mistake given how much authority and power you and anyone else has over their own experience in here and anywhere else.  Leaving is empowerment, staying and being an agent of change for good is another form of empowerment.  Seeing things as they *really* are and not just as is mythically percieved is yet another.  Exercising all empowerment is totally up to the person, not to the site to do for you or anyone else.  You can lead a horse to water...

No one has power over anyone, only what you're willing to give them.  And why we provide so much for folks to keep the whining to a low level hum.  Whining is actually worse than just doing what is best for yourself by yourself and becoming a good member in this place and make us even better with your contributions.  Yet we hear so many times things that surprise us about how they feel about the OWA when it never has to be as that person percieves if a little thick skin and backbone and a lot of technology were  employed.

</soapbox>

[No? in Austin]

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I agree with you completely on the Pence subject and wasn't bringing that up, but by the time I thought the thread had evolved past the specific (pence) into general terms (astros bury their minor leaguers).

When I wrote: "I don't believe, IMHO of course, that service time is part of the equation for Pence.", I was pretty sure I was still on the item of the specific issue of Gunther.  Hence why I didn't understand why you would ask me to discuss with you a *general* philosophy of the Astros organization when I never said I disagreed or agreed with you on such.  In fact, you were ascribing a point in the *general* matter to me, which I could take offense at or be highly confused about as I was.

I don't think I ever said what you said I said else I would've said it.

[Golden Sombrero]

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<soapbox>

But the perception of the one or two people in only a portion of the entire site (the TZ is *NOT* the OWA - this irks me to no end to hear!) does not an entire site make.  This is a huge mistake given how my authority and power you and anyone else has over their own experience in here and anywhere else.  Leaving is empowerment, staying and being an agent of change for good is another form of empowerment.  Seeing things as they *really* are and not just as is mythically percieved is yet another.  Exercising all empowerment is totally up to the person, not to the site to do for you or anyone else.  You can lead a horse to water...

No one has power over anyone, only what you're willing to give them.  And why we provide so much for folks to keep the whining to a low level hum.  Whining is actually worse than just doing what is best for yourself by yourself and becoming a good member in this place and make us even better with your contributions.  Yet we hear so many times things that surprise us about how they feel about the OWA when it never has to be as that person percieves if a little thick skin and backbone and a lot of technology were  employed.

</soapbox>

Fine.  So to adopt what you preach, but me on ignore.  I don't need to change my behavior of pointing out the flaws in the site and posters (or whining as you put it), because  what I post is merely as an individual and does not the entire site make.  

You can't allow me to bother anyone, because it would be giving me power by your own choice.

Haven't you noticed that we really don't accumulate that many new posters?  Don't you wonder why?  Or that the ones who do show up don't stay?  Was this place really founded by and for the remants of Astros Connection?

[Rammer33]

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Like Luke Scott.

Lane's playing for a backup role right now.  Ain't no way Pence should play backup in Houston.

Scott is what, 28?  That's the problem.  He was tearing it up in the minors forever, was given a brief chance in the bigs when he was old by rookie standards, failed, was sent back to exile, and now finally has made it back.

False.

Scott, as has been pointed out, was buried behind SIGNIFICANTLY better prospects and more importantly SIGNIFICANTLY better performers in the Cleveland system until he was 25 ...  Also Scott got a late start being drafted out of college and I don?t believe he played professional ball until he was 23 ? Also he was not tearing it up in the minors in fact he was pretty unspectacular (not awful but certainly not warranting attention) ? in fact Scott didn?t have a really standout year in the minors until he was 26 and the very next season following his big year the Astros gave him a shot with the big club ?

Scott is not an example of what you want him to be ? in fact once he started to perform the astros got him up pretty quick ? can?t always take age in a vacuum ?

[WulawHorn]

I listen to total and complete idiots on the radio call in show every day.

Back to back callers said that David Carr should work for free next year to pay back all the money that he stole, and some ridiculous point about the rockets being a better team without Yao or some similar nonsense.

This is just the most recent lunacy I've heard on talk radio.

My point is this: the internet is now so easy that the same mouth breathers that can drive a car and opperate a cell phone at the same time can also post on the www.  This is longwinded way of me saying that I don't  particularly give a crap if this site doesn't see a whole lot of new posters register every day.  Those that we do get seem to suck 7 times out of 10 anyway and then leave.

[WulawHorn]

Noe- my appologies

I read your post pretty quickly while at work (dangerous I know) and missed that you were speaking specifically about Pence.

I read you to say (which you didn't upon rereading) that the Astros would never consider service time in a player's callup.  To which I respond- I doubt it, I've heard way too many GM's discuss this to think that it wouldn't ever pass through Purp's mind.  

Really though- my general frustration is with idiot fans (and a certain talk show host CP) killing the team about players wasting away in the minor's when this is not acccurate.

Like I said- look at Bonderman- you think the Tigers wouldn't like another year or two of club control on that guy.

I remember the Mariners getting skewered in some corners for calling A-Rod up like 10 days too early- starting his free agent clock quicker then was necessary.

[Lurch]

Merely Natural Selection in action.

For the research scientists in the house

[No? in Austin]

No problem, I wasn't offended, I was confused.  Thanks for clearing that up.

[No? in Austin]

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This is longwinded way of me saying that I don't  particularly give a crap if this site doesn't see a whole lot of new posters register every day.  Those that we do get seem to suck 7 times out of 10 anyway and then leave.

The opinions expressed in the OWA do not necessarily represent the opinions of the OWA and anyone else for that matter.  Thank you!

[No? in Austin]

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Fine.  So to adopt what you preach, but me on ignore.

Why?

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I don't need to change my behavior of pointing out the flaws in the site and posters (or whining as you put it), because  what I post is merely as an individual and does not the entire site make.

But your indictments of the *whole* are the sort of in line with how you indict the entire Houston organization with a very wide brush.  Why do you take an incident or a specific incident and make a generalization about it?  Is that fair in your mind to the hundreds of great posters in here and the editorial contributors, the people who work behind the scenes, the ones who work hard to build the site, everyone who make up the whole of the OWA?  Is it?  Just because you cannot stand the way Jim behaves you indict the entire freaking OWA?  

That is unfair especially in light of what you can honestly do to make that a non-issue for yourself.  Instead you'd rather, if I read you right, indict everyone with your Uzi whines because one person makes it so.

I find that odd.  But that is just me, nobody else.  

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You can't allow me to bother anyone, because it would be giving me power by your own choice.

Indictments that you were making of the *whole* is what I was talking about.  If you feel it necessary to do so because of the one, then I find it offensive given how much you can control your own experience in here.  Whining about the one by indicting the whole is not a good thing, it's kind of weird actually.

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Haven't you noticed that we really don't accumulate that many new posters?  Don't you wonder why?  Or that the ones who do show up don't stay?  Was this place really founded by and for the remants of Astros Connection?

You have no idea what you're talking about.  Seriously.  You want to indict the entire site as some sort of repellent by making the one who you personally cannot take stand for the site itself.  And then you want to connect that to some sort of lack of growth, when in fact we have a very healthy growth.  Lastly, you want to indict us on lack of legacy to the BFT when you do not know at all what our healthy relationship is with the legacy and with being our own site.

Unless you are in the group that works hard to keep this place going, I suggest you don't know jack about what is the problem with this entire site.  It is your own perception for your own experience that you've managed to magnify into a huge wide brush endictment, again when it is entirely uncessary when we've bent over backwards to provide you with technology tools to keep from any hardships you've mentioned.

Instead, you'd rather indict this site as if the charter and focus is about what one person represents to you.  I have no qualms telling you this: You're wrong.

[Golden Sombrero]

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You have no idea what you're talking about.  Seriously.  You want to indict the entire site as some sort of repellent by making the one who you personally cannot take stand for the site itself.  And then you want to connect that to some sort of lack of growth, when in fact we have a very healthy growth.  Lastly, you want to indict us on lack of legacy to the BFT when you do not know at all what our healthy relationship is with the legacy and with being our own site.

Unless you are in the group that works hard to keep this place going, I suggest you don't know jack about what is the problem with this entire site.  It is your own perception for your own experience that you've managed to magnify into a huge wide brush endictment, again when it is entirely uncessary when we've bent over backwards to provide you with technology tools to keep from any hardships you've mentioned.

Instead, you'd rather indict this site as if the charter and focus is about what one person represents to you.  I have no qualms telling you this: You're wrong.

It is not about 1 person to me.  It is about the entire culture of this website.  I belong to other message boards and have to say I actually enjoy my time there, as opposed to here.  So perhaps you are right about me not belonging here.  Maybe it's time I move on.    

So I will go the way of the other posters who no longer contribute.  I don't expect anyone to care.  I raised an issue I thought was important to be heard, but apparently there is no interest in making any sweeping changes.  That's fine, you were all here first and it is your site.  Do with it as you will, and enjoy each other's posts.  

The season can't get here fast enough.  I know there is one thing we can all agree on--Go Astros!

[No? in Austin]

BTW - there is nothing more boring and stupid than to talk about the website when this was supposed to be a conversation about Hunter Pence (and any peripherals therein).

I'm closing this thread and probably moving it to the archives for good.  If you want to talk to me about any concerns about the website, PM me.  I'll be glad to hear you out and give you my *known* facts about the site, it's charter, it's focus and what we're here to provide.

Like I said, this is really not for TZ discussion because you don't know what I know and I will not share in public.  So don't bother to tell me what the OWA is chartered to do unless you are a fellow admin that has worked hard for the last five years to bring about this site and make it the excellent place that we are very proud of.  Telling me things about the site that are unfounded are actually going to make me scratch my head because I don't believe any of you know what I know.  If you want to learn about the site, once again, PM me and I'll set you straight.

Gladly.  Thread closed.

[No? in Austin]

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You have no idea what you're talking about.  Seriously.  You want to indict the entire site as some sort of repellent by making the one who you personally cannot take stand for the site itself.  And then you want to connect that to some sort of lack of growth, when in fact we have a very healthy growth.  Lastly, you want to indict us on lack of legacy to the BFT when you do not know at all what our healthy relationship is with the legacy and with being our own site.

Unless you are in the group that works hard to keep this place going, I suggest you don't know jack about what is the problem with this entire site.  It is your own perception for your own experience that you've managed to magnify into a huge wide brush endictment, again when it is entirely uncessary when we've bent over backwards to provide you with technology tools to keep from any hardships you've mentioned.

Instead, you'd rather indict this site as if the charter and focus is about what one person represents to you.  I have no qualms telling you this: You're wrong.

It is not about 1 person to me.  It is about the entire culture of this website.  I belong to other message boards and have to say I actually enjoy my time there, as opposed to here.  So perhaps you are right about me not belonging here.  Maybe it's time I move on.    

So I will go the way of the other posters who no longer contribute.  I don't expect anyone to care.  I raised an issue I thought was important to be heard, but apparently there is no interest in making any sweeping changes.  That's fine, you were all here first and it is your site.  Do with it as you will, and enjoy each other's posts.  

The season can't get here fast enough.  I know there is one thing we can all agree on--Go Astros!

Because you don't freaking know what I know, how can you dare to make an indictment?  Know if changes are planned or not?  Disavowment of technology we've paid for and made available to you, yet you continue to say we are chartered or cultured as a whole to be something we're not.  If we were, I'd be damned if I would spend a nickle to provide an ignore feature for you or anybody else.  Yet, I continue to be told that the OWA is about not caring nor providing the environment I want, so wah, wah, wah... change the OWA.

Freaking grow a pair and use the freaking technology for goodness sake and get in here and contribute.  And the hell with the message board mentality... we're not the TZ!!!! Damn, how many times over do I have to say that to anyone?!?!  Usually it's those who decide that they are very comfortable with saying what they want about this place because it suits their need to do so.  We are the OWA, and the TZ (message board) is a minor item.

That you place such a huge importance on the TZ and how *ONE* person treats *YOU* is *YOUR* problem.  I didn't work hard with others to create a freaking MESSAGE BOARD!  That seems to be lost to everyone who tends to indict the entire OWA.  When you say it is the culture of the OWA, you then say that Craig's Series Previews are indicted, the Zipperflap is at fault, the Funk and Wagner, the Limey Time, Crunch Time, et.al.  ALL AT FAULT AND SCREAMS OF THE CULTURE OF THE OWA of distance and repellent.

And I don't see it.

Hell, what if I just got rid of the TZ and left you all to fend for yourselves as pissy little children who cannot learn to talk to each other and learn how to even ignore each other?  YOU WOULD STILL FREAKING WHINE!

So please, given what you just said, go the heck away and soon.  I don't have time nor care to expend effort for ungrateful people like you!

Goodbye, thread closed! (Hows that for a meltdown?  Pretty cool, eh?)

[pravata]

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bullshit.

Thank you for your brilliant analysis. ...

Did I miss a name in this thread?  Why hasnt anyone mentioned Wily Taveras?  AA to the majors, starting centerfielder 2005.  Why? Because the Astros had a need and they filled it with the best player they had available.  To suggest that somehow they keep players in the minors and "fritter" away their most productive years is ridiculous.  Because that's their plan?  To lose?  Hidalgo, Lane, Ensberg, Burke, Scott, Hirsh, Lidge, Charlie Palillo's flavor of the day, now Pence are all players that fans have clamoured for and said the Astros were too slow to promote.  They moved them in at the speed they thought appropriate with more or less success.  But that doesn't matter, the point is that fans, and their surrogates in the media, thought these players were the key to winning.  The Astros have won, they haven't frittered away the talent they have in the minors but have kept their focus on winning at the major league level.  To say that they have anything else in mind is bullshit.  There's really no other way to adequately describe it.