Author Topic: Wow.  (Read 4405 times)

das

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Wow.
« on: January 26, 2007, 11:20:41 am »
 
Quote:

Everett, 29, hit .239 with six home runs and a career-high 59 RBIs over 150 games in 2006. He posted career-high totals with 28 doubles, six triples and 34 walks.  His .990 fielding percentage ranked fourth all-time for a National League shortstop in a single season .  




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What an amazing accomplishment.  This even when he takes so many (calculated) risks moving to his right to make up for Biggio.
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

Taras Bulba

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2007, 11:38:30 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Everett, 29, hit .239 with six home runs and a career-high 59 RBIs over 150 games in 2006. He posted career-high totals with 28 doubles, six triples and 34 walks.  His .990 fielding percentage ranked fourth all-time for a National League shortstop in a single season .  




The Link

What an amazing accomplishment.  This even when he takes so many (calculated) risks moving to his right to make up for Biggio.





Yeah, but he doesn't carry enough timber to be useful on a fantasy league team, so what good is he?
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ValpoCory

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2007, 12:10:47 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Everett, 29, hit .239 with six home runs and a career-high 59 RBIs over 150 games in 2006. He posted career-high totals with 28 doubles, six triples and 34 walks.  His .990 fielding percentage ranked fourth all-time for a National League shortstop in a single season .  




The Link

What an amazing accomplishment.  This even when he takes so many (calculated) risks moving to his right to make up for Biggio.




Yeah, but he doesn't carry enough timber to be useful on a fantasy league team, so what good is he?




In addition to not being good enough to win a Gold Glove award.

In all seriousness, this is a case of Everett "hasn't" won the gold glove instead of "can't" win the gold glove.

He'll have one soon I bet.

Limey

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2007, 12:16:44 pm »
Quote:

In all seriousness, this is a case of Everett "hasn't" won the gold glove instead of "can't" win the gold glove.

He'll have one soon I bet.




He won't win one until he attracts the attention of the voters with his bat.  They pick the best hitter who can play defense without tripping over his own dick.
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Re: Wow.
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2007, 12:39:12 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

In all seriousness, this is a case of Everett "hasn't" won the gold glove instead of "can't" win the gold glove.

He'll have one soon I bet.




He won't win one until he attracts the attention of the voters with his bat.  They pick the best hitter who can play defense without tripping over his own dick.





I disagree.  I think it's because he doesn't have to make Sportcenter highlight plays to do everything.  He's got such good instincts, range, and positions himself so well, he doesn't have to go diving after everything up the middle or in the hole.  He's so fucking good that he doesn't attract the mindless' attention.
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Limey

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2007, 01:01:19 pm »
Quote:

I disagree.  I think it's because he doesn't have to make Sportcenter highlight plays to do everything.  He's got such good instincts, range, and positions himself so well, he doesn't have to go diving after everything up the middle or in the hole.  He's so fucking good that he doesn't attract the mindless' attention.



Good point.  See Jeter, Derek.
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No? in Austin

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2007, 01:31:18 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I disagree.  I think it's because he doesn't have to make Sportcenter highlight plays to do everything.  He's got such good instincts, range, and positions himself so well, he doesn't have to go diving after everything up the middle or in the hole.  He's so fucking good that he doesn't attract the mindless' attention.



Good point.  See Jeter, Derek.




Even go one (or two better) for you:

See: Ordonez, Rey
See: Wilson, Jack (a bit of a stretch, but not by much)
See: Vizquel, Omar

These are guys that the national media (like ESPN) love to highlight because they make the outstanding miraculous plays.  There is a case to be made of Wilson and Vizquel being really great shortstops regardless.  I won't argue that (and for those hanging on every word I'm typing, this is observational, not quantifiable... back away from the keyboard now!).

But it reminds me of the argument Ken Griffey Jr. once made in putting down ESPN for praising Jim Edmonds so much.  Junnah's point was not that Edmonds wasn't a good or even a great player, but that ESPN didn't know how to evaluate a great centerfielder if all they did was pick diving catches.  His point was, if he needs to dive, maybe... just maybe... he's prone to being out of position or even getting late jumps on a ball that others great centerfielders catch in stride.

Oh, and same goes for Andruw Jones.  If I were to rate the centerfielders in the NL as to who is great and who is one step below, it would go like this:

1. Carlos Beltran
2. (insert whoever you want here, it doesn't matter, they don't hold a cnadle to the jugador de cinco ramientas.

This is how I feel about Adam Everett as well.

Limey

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2007, 01:37:13 pm »
Quote:

His point was, if he needs to dive, maybe... just maybe... he's prone to being out of position or even getting late jumps on a ball that others great centerfielders catch in stride.



See also Bell, Derek.
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Re: Wow.
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2007, 02:21:43 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In all seriousness, this is a case of Everett "hasn't" won the gold glove instead of "can't" win the gold glove.

He'll have one soon I bet.




He won't win one until he attracts the attention of the voters with his bat.  They pick the best hitter who can play defense without tripping over his own dick.




I disagree.  I think it's because he doesn't have to make Sportcenter highlight plays to do everything.  He's got such good instincts, range, and positions himself so well, he doesn't have to go diving after everything up the middle or in the hole.  He's so fucking good that he doesn't attract the mindless' attention.




Amen...I'd say most "highlight reel" plays are because the player has no timing, or was out of position to begin with.  AE is the real deal no matter how much I have to drink to watch him hit.  Watching him is truely poetic.

jaklewein

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2007, 02:45:08 pm »
Noe...I don't want to hang on every word as you requested, but I gotta ask you to go a little further with your call-out of AJones.  Is he as good as Beltran?  No, but other than being a hotdog from time to time...I see him as one hell of a CF.  If Beltran is 1, then AJones has to be 2...at least in the NL where I watch most of my baseball.

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2007, 02:51:42 pm »
Quote:

No, but other than being a hotdog from time to time...I see him as one hell of a CF.




Didn't you just answer your own question here?  By the way, when is the last time you ever heard of a great centerfielder being pulled from a game at mid-inning by a manager for being so out of place and not listening, choosing instead to try the highlight reel catches?

Playing defense isn't about doing the latter, playing great defense is about doing all the routine stuff flawlessly and doing the hard stuff almost seem effortless.

Andruw Jones gets himself into bad position and does some things fundamentally wrong (catching a baseball) so many times it is hard to say he's a great defensive centerfielder.  He's a human highlight reel because he has to make up for his lack of fundamentally strong ways in the  position.  IOW - he hides his deficiencies quite well.  Too well.

No? in Austin

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2007, 03:08:57 pm »
On more thing, because I really do get misinterpeted a lot (and all of it tends to me my own fault).

I never said Andruw Jones nor Jim Edmonds were bad centerfielders.  Neither did I say Vizquel and Wilson are bad shortstops.  That tends to be the way some fans will place such things, if you're not the greatest, then by golly you're the worst.

I don't do that.  (although I will say I did think Rey Ordonez was an average shortstop).

Andruw Jones' style of centerfield play reminds of the things folks said about HOF Tris "The Grey Eagle" Speaker.  So if being reminded of the style of play of one of the all-time greats is damning with faint praise, so be it.  I think Jones, like Speaker, know or have (had) confidence in their ability to make up for playing a shallow centerfield.  So does Jim Edmonds.

Doesn't mean they're fundamentally better than Beltran, because they're not.  I'd rather take Beltran if I were choosing a true centerfielder on my team.  My choice is based on being fundamentally sound, so I know that centerfield will have someone there to handle the routine almost 99% of the time and the hard will be handled with less stress than watching someone doing the swan dive to his left or right, or face plant on the wall because they couldn't get back to the wall in enough time to turn and catch the ball without the leap.

jaklewein

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2007, 04:51:45 pm »
Noe, I really tried to let you know that I wasn't calling you out on what you said.  I just wanted you to expand on what you thought of AJones.  Now that you have...


I don't remember him getting pulled for the reasons you state.  I remember him getting pulled because he charged a clean single and let the ball go under his glove (rolled to the wall).  He then proceeded to jog half-ass after it.  I remember saying, "Bobby needs to yank him from the game immediately."  That said...I haven't seen him lollygag in years.  I think he's grown up.  People forget that he broke into the bigs at 19 and started earning gold-gloves (deserved or not) while most other players are hoping to make it outta single-A.

Anyhow...I know you didn't call Andrew Jones a terrible CF, just as I never said he was better than Beltran (I said he wasn't).  That said, I wanted to see if you thought he was just average, because I don't believe he is.  He plays as shallow a CF as anyone in baseball and hardly ever gets burned over his shoulder.  I didn't realize that he misplays a lot of balls, but then again I suppose I don't have the knowledge that you do either (seriously).

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2007, 05:16:19 pm »
Quote:

I don't remember him getting pulled for the reasons you state.  I remember him getting pulled because he charged a clean single and let the ball go under his glove (rolled to the wall).  He then proceeded to jog half-ass after it.  I remember saying, "Bobby needs to yank him from the game immediately."




Okay, but that is the essence of what I'm saying.  He's not a great centerfielder fundamentally, although he is a great, great, great, great, great, great athlete.  Happy?

Quote:

That said...I haven't seen him lollygag in years.  I think he's grown up.  People forget that he broke into the bigs at 19 and started earning gold-gloves (deserved or not) while most other players are hoping to make it outta single-A.




I remember a playoff game versus the St. Louis Cardinals not long ago.  AJone went back on a ball to left centerfield.  He was jogging lazily to the ball (instead of running hard to camp under the ball and make the proper catch). He put up one hand to catch it in his then basket catching ways whilest still jogging.  Oh-boy, what a ham!  I said to myself previous to that play (during the season) "One day, that sort of play from him is going to cost the Braves big time!  You always try to avoid running and catching a ball at the same time.  Camp under the damn ball and let the higlight reel alone!  I mean it will cost the Braves huge, like in a playoff game".  And then it happened, he dropped what should've been a routine flyball for any good to great centerfielder.  I mean right out of his glove, rolled about halfway toward left hugging the wall, with Andruw looking like the cat that got caught eating a mouse.  He had that furrowed brow like "Ooooooh... DAMNIT!"  Can't blame anybody else for that but AJones being the fundamentally deficient, but highly talent centerfielder.

Give me fundamentally strong every time.  Secure those precious outs.

Quote:

Anyhow...I know you didn't call Andrew Jones a terrible CF, just as I never said he was better than Beltran (I said he wasn't).  That said, I wanted to see if you thought he was just average, because I don't believe he is.  He plays as shallow a CF as anyone in baseball and hardly ever gets burned over his shoulder.  I didn't realize that he misplays a lot of balls, but then again I suppose I don't have the knowledge that you do either (seriously).




No, I don't think he's average, nor ever implied that.  I said he's not the best.  And you offered this "No, but other than being a hotdog from time to time...".  Dude, if you say that about a centerfielder, you just bumped him off the #1 spot of being the best in the league.  No way, no how should you ever, ever, ever, ever say that a player who is #1 is "a hotdog from time to time".  In baseball, that is a akin to saying "a huge error waiting to happen".  I come from the old school of "fundamentally sound is what greatness is made of", so "hotdog" would never make it in that equation.  And I have to admit that Terry Puhl is my all time favorite Houston Astros player.  He was as fundamentally sound as you can get, never threw to the wrong base, never missed a cut off man, never try to be flashy, made all the right decisions and in the long term his style of play racks up wins for a *team*, but will never get you on a highlight reel.

Go find a highlight reel of Puhl, I dare you.  Not going to happen.

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2007, 05:44:44 pm »
I agree that AE will not get the Gold Glove until the voters recognize him because of his bat, which is a totally ass-backward way of getting the award, in my opinion.  Right on about AE not having to make diving catches because of his insticts and positioning.

I remember Griffey Jr making those comments.. and it is a good point.  Edmonds does play a very shallow CF, almost daring hitters to get it over him.  I notice that a lot of his highlights seem to be balls he is reaching for that have gotten over him (of course not all of his highlights are of this nature)... and that gets back to his positioning again.  I would say Griffey did have a valid point that if he has to dive so much, maybe he is not getting a good break, but his positioning does play a part also.  So its tough to differentiate whether he actually does get late breaks on the ball or its because of his potitioning, because Edmonds is a very good CF when you get down to it.

Regardless, getting back to AE, its almost that his solid defense hurts him (in terms of winning the Gold Glove), like several other posters have mentioned.  He doesn't put himself in position where he has to be diving all over the diamong making throws from his knees to get guys out.. and outlets like ESPN almost never recognize good defense that isn't flashy.
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Re: Wow.
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 06:03:35 pm »
Quote:


Regardless, getting back to AE, its almost that his solid defense hurts him (in terms of winning the Gold Glove), like several other posters have mentioned.  He doesn't put himself in position where he has to be diving all over the diamong making throws from his knees to get guys out.. and outlets like ESPN almost never recognize good defense that isn't flashy.






I disagree with the notion that Everett's defense goes un-noticed around the league, whether because of his offense or his lack of highlights.  He's pretty much regarded now as *the* best defensive SS in the league, if not the single best defensive player.  I can't imagine him not winning a few Gold Gloves, but whether he does or not, he's made a reputation for himself.
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Re: Wow.
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2007, 07:52:07 pm »
Quote:

I remember Griffey Jr making those comments.. and it is a good point.  Edmonds does play a very shallow CF, almost daring hitters to get it over him.




His real point was lost to many people though.  The real point was that ESPN doesn't know squat about defense, but sure loves to show web gems and call them "great defensive plays".  Yeah, they are great, but were they necessary?  Some of those plays are about guys who actually aren't as great defensively as they should be and you'd think a sports group would be able to make the distinction.

Example: Ryan Freel.  Great web gems, suspect as a legit right fielder because he isn't a natural out there.  He'll hustle his arse off for you, face plant into the wall for you... but just maybe... and this is difficult to really admit sometimes... perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... it's better to have a guy in right who reads a ball off the bat, runs back correctly, puts both hands in the proper position to make the catch, and never leaps, dives or runs while catching said ball.

Web Gem?  No sir.  Boring as watching grass grow? Yessir.  Great defense?  Abso-freaking-lutely.

THIS is why Adam Everett does not get the pub, he's as boring as watching grass grow because while he will dive if he has to and make some outstanding plays if he has to, but he is the best defensive shortstop in the majors because... he's boring and does his job better than anyone else.

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2007, 08:33:24 pm »
Quote:

I disagree with the notion that Everett's defense goes un-noticed around the league, whether because of his offense or his lack of highlights.   He's pretty much regarded now as *the* best defensive SS in the league , if not the single best defensive player.




Thanks in large part though to the essay done by James in  The Fielding Bible, prior to that there were still plenty of people, not baseball people mind you, that would still argue that AE was no better than Furcal et al. I, for one, am happy as all get out about the recognition AE gets for his defense and considering the position he plays, in my opinion, IS the best defensive player in the league.
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Re: Wow.
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2007, 09:00:22 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


Regardless, getting back to AE, its almost that his solid defense hurts him (in terms of winning the Gold Glove), like several other posters have mentioned.  He doesn't put himself in position where he has to be diving all over the diamong making throws from his knees to get guys out.. and outlets like ESPN almost never recognize good defense that isn't flashy.






I disagree with the notion that Everett's defense goes un-noticed around the league, whether because of his offense or his lack of highlights.  He's pretty much regarded now as *the* best defensive SS in the league, if not the single best defensive player.  I can't imagine him not winning a few Gold Gloves, but whether he does or not, he's made a reputation for himself.



I do think people recognize his skill, but the Gold Glove is almost more of a popularity contest, something AE can't win.. at least not around the NL as a whole.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rafael Palmeiro win a gold glove at 1B one year when he didn't play the majority of the year there?  I do think people recognize Everett's defensive skill, because that is the reason he plays everyday for the Astros.  But at the same time, I think he has a hard chance to win the "gold glove popularity contest" for the reasons listed:  a) he doesn't do the web gem thing often and b) he isn't as consistent with the bat as some of the other guys.

I agree with MikeyBoy, I think he is THE best defensive SS in MLB, and the NL.  If I was handing out the award, he would have gotten it from me last year.. but obviously I just post on a message board.
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Re: Wow.
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2007, 09:05:11 pm »
Quote:


I do think people recognize his skill, but the Gold Glove is almost more of a popularity contest, something AE can't win.. at least not around the NL as a whole.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rafael Palmeiro win a gold glove at 1B one year when he didn't play the majority of the year there?  I do think people recognize Everett's defensive skill, because that is the reason he plays everyday for the Astros.  But at the same time, I think he has a hard chance to win the "gold glove popularity contest" for the reasons listed:  a) he doesn't do the web gem thing often and b) he isn't as consistent with the bat as some of the other guys.






I don't buy that.  The Gold Gloves are voted on by the league managers, not the media.  The Gold Gloves are probaby the award least affected by the media and the highlight reels.  I agree that hitting all too often enters the thinking.
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Re: Wow.
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2007, 09:09:10 pm »
Quote:


Thanks in large part though to the essay done by James in  The Fielding Bible, prior to that there were still plenty of people, not baseball people mind you, that would still argue that AE was no better than Furcal et al. I, for one, am happy as all get out about the recognition AE gets for his defense and considering the position he plays, in my opinion, IS the best defensive player in the league.






Well, it's strictly "baseball people" who vote for the Gold Gloves.  Furthermore, the "baseball people" are the only ones who matter anyway.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

TheWizard

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2007, 09:11:59 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


I do think people recognize his skill, but the Gold Glove is almost more of a popularity contest, something AE can't win.. at least not around the NL as a whole.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rafael Palmeiro win a gold glove at 1B one year when he didn't play the majority of the year there?  I do think people recognize Everett's defensive skill, because that is the reason he plays everyday for the Astros.  But at the same time, I think he has a hard chance to win the "gold glove popularity contest" for the reasons listed:  a) he doesn't do the web gem thing often and b) he isn't as consistent with the bat as some of the other guys.






I don't buy that.  The Gold Gloves are voted on by the league managers, not the media.  The Gold Gloves are probaby the award least affected by the media and the highlight reels.  I agree that hitting all too often enters the thinking.



I don't mean its a media popularity contest.. I meant exactly what you said.  Hitting enters into the thinking way too often - managers are just as guilty of that as anyone else.  Also, managers actually would be more prone to give it to the guy wtih flashy plays and with the big bat... they manage a team, they don't watch Adam Everett day in and day out like we do.  They are forced to judge the postion by the things they see on TV almost, just like anyone else.

How else can you explain that Palmiero won it that year?
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2007, 09:17:49 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I do think people recognize his skill, but the Gold Glove is almost more of a popularity contest, something AE can't win.. at least not around the NL as a whole.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rafael Palmeiro win a gold glove at 1B one year when he didn't play the majority of the year there?  I do think people recognize Everett's defensive skill, because that is the reason he plays everyday for the Astros.  But at the same time, I think he has a hard chance to win the "gold glove popularity contest" for the reasons listed:  a) he doesn't do the web gem thing often and b) he isn't as consistent with the bat as some of the other guys.






I don't buy that.  The Gold Gloves are voted on by the league managers, not the media.  The Gold Gloves are probaby the award least affected by the media and the highlight reels.  I agree that hitting all too often enters the thinking.



I don't mean its a media popularity contest.. I meant exactly what you said.  Hitting enters into the thinking way too often - managers are just as guilty of that as anyone else.

How else can you explain that Palmiero won it that year?





Palmeiro won it on reputation, which is decidedly different than winning it on media hype (highlight reel stuff).  Palmeiro was an outstanding defensive firstbasemen.  He just happened to have only played in like 30 games at 1B that year, so the argument is that he really wasn't a firstbaseman, not that he wasn't a good defensive firstbasemen when he was there.  And I agree that reputation plays a huge part.  I just don't agree with the thinking that Everett isn't recognized because he doesn't make the highlight reel or make spectacular plays that get him noticed.  The people who select the award are the ones who probably see the fewest highlights and are influenced least by the popularity of a player with the general public.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

mihoba

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2007, 09:35:59 pm »
Another Yogism:

"I wish everybody had the drive he (Joe DiMaggio) had. He never did anything wrong on the field. I'd never seen him dive for a ball, everything was a chest-high catch, and he never walked off the field."
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jaklewein

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 09:47:33 pm »
 Okay, but that is the essence of what I'm saying. He's not a great centerfielder fundamentally, although he is a great, great, great, great, great, great athlete. Happy?

Absolutely.  Your point about showboating/hotdogging makes sense.  I've never like players that do it and that's one of the reasons that I've never been much of a fan of AJones.  Go back 3-4 years ago and I'd of throw in lazy as another adjective to describe him...I'll swear right now that he put on about 5lbs of fat every year for about 4 years in a row.  Then all of the sudden, he came in to STraining in shape and quit most of the BS hotdogging...maturity I guess...or was it Boras kicking him in the ass, saying:  "Free Agency's right around the corner you slacker!"

homer

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2007, 01:43:16 pm »
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I do think people recognize his skill, but the Gold Glove is almost more of a popularity contest, something AE can't win.. at least not around the NL as a whole.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rafael Palmeiro win a gold glove at 1B one year when he didn't play the majority of the year there?  I do think people recognize Everett's defensive skill, because that is the reason he plays everyday for the Astros.  But at the same time, I think he has a hard chance to win the "gold glove popularity contest" for the reasons listed:  a) he doesn't do the web gem thing often and b) he isn't as consistent with the bat as some of the other guys.






I don't buy that.  The Gold Gloves are voted on by the league managers, not the media.  The Gold Gloves are probaby the award least affected by the media and the highlight reels.  I agree that hitting all too often enters the thinking.



I don't mean its a media popularity contest.. I meant exactly what you said.  Hitting enters into the thinking way too often - managers are just as guilty of that as anyone else.  Also, managers actually would be more prone to give it to the guy wtih flashy plays and with the big bat... they manage a team, they don't watch Adam Everett day in and day out like we do.  They are forced to judge the postion by the things they see on TV almost, just like anyone else.

How else can you explain that Palmiero won it that year?




You are definitely short changing managers. Don't you think they also know that a flashy play is not necessarily (not usually) a good play?
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TheWizard

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2007, 05:45:39 pm »
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I do think people recognize his skill, but the Gold Glove is almost more of a popularity contest, something AE can't win.. at least not around the NL as a whole.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rafael Palmeiro win a gold glove at 1B one year when he didn't play the majority of the year there?  I do think people recognize Everett's defensive skill, because that is the reason he plays everyday for the Astros.  But at the same time, I think he has a hard chance to win the "gold glove popularity contest" for the reasons listed:  a) he doesn't do the web gem thing often and b) he isn't as consistent with the bat as some of the other guys.






I don't buy that.  The Gold Gloves are voted on by the league managers, not the media.  The Gold Gloves are probaby the award least affected by the media and the highlight reels.  I agree that hitting all too often enters the thinking.



I don't mean its a media popularity contest.. I meant exactly what you said.  Hitting enters into the thinking way too often - managers are just as guilty of that as anyone else.  Also, managers actually would be more prone to give it to the guy wtih flashy plays and with the big bat... they manage a team, they don't watch Adam Everett day in and day out like we do.  They are forced to judge the postion by the things they see on TV almost, just like anyone else.

How else can you explain that Palmiero won it that year?




You are definitely short changing managers. Don't you think they also know that a flashy play is not necessarily (not usually) a good play?



I think you are short-changing what I said in my posts, actually.. that wasn't my entire point at all.  Of course I don't think that.. like I said, hitting and highlight reel plays DO play in more than they should I think.  Reputation is also a big part of it, like HudsonHawk said.
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Jose Cruz III

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2007, 05:12:16 pm »

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Go find a highlight reel of Puhl, I dare you.  Not going to happen.



Don't know if it is on a highlight reel or not, but Puhl saved Ryan's 5th no-hitter with a running catch. And it was a beauty.
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Re: Wow.
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2007, 08:08:56 pm »
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Go find a highlight reel of Puhl, I dare you.  Not going to happen.



Don't know if it is on a highlight reel or not, but Puhl saved Ryan's 5th no-hitter with a running catch. And it was a beauty.




Here is some interesting sabremetric views on defensive prowess when it comes to the Gold Gloves in 2006.  This guy, Chris Dial at Baseball Think Factory (once known as BaseballPrimer as I recall) says something about Andruw Jones.

 Chris Dial: 2006 Gold Gloves As I See It!

Excerpt:

Juan Pierre?  That?s a good-sized lead as well.  Beltran, with this defense, is the best selection for MVP.  Griffey hasn?t played well in CF for a few years, and while not as bad as last year, he still isn?t good.  I?d play him in LF.  And if BIS still has Andruw as the top CF, they should re-consider their algorithms.

He rates Juan Pierre as the #1 candidate for CF gold glove with Beltran at #2.  Andruw Jones is second to *last* of all CFs in the NL.  Junnnah, ironically is dead last.  Jim Edmonds somewhere in the middle.  Oh and by the way, he rates Aaron Rowand as somewhere at the bottom as well.  Yet another flashy CF but one that is very reckless.  That Eric Byrnes is #3 is funny to me.  But that is me.

OH, one last thing, he rates Adam Everett ahead of the class in the NL for all shortstops... by a huge margin.  Here is what he says:

Excerpt:

If Ozzie Smith was as good as Adam Everett, he was incredible.  Everett is on the verge of saving hte most runs on defense over the last 20 years.  He?s truly incredible at outpacing his peers.

IF?  Is he too young to have ever seen OZ play?  Any way, look at his list, it is very surprising in many of the different positions.  MoBerg is better than Scott Rolen?  Hmmmm...

strosrays

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2007, 09:39:15 pm »
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I disagree.  I think it's because he doesn't have to make Sportcenter highlight plays to do everything.  He's got such good instincts, range, and positions himself so well, he doesn't have to go diving after everything up the middle or in the hole.  He's so fucking good that he doesn't attract the mindless' attention.



Good point.  See Jeter, Derek.




Even go one (or two better) for you:

See: Ordonez, Rey
See: Wilson, Jack (a bit of a stretch, but not by much)
See: Vizquel, Omar

These are guys that the national media (like ESPN) love to highlight because they make the outstanding miraculous plays.  There is a case to be made of Wilson and Vizquel being really great shortstops regardless.  I won't argue that (and for those hanging on every word I'm typing, this is observational, not quantifiable... back away from the keyboard now!).

But it reminds me of the argument Ken Griffey Jr. once made in putting down ESPN for praising Jim Edmonds so much.  Junnah's point was not that Edmonds wasn't a good or even a great player, but that ESPN didn't know how to evaluate a great centerfielder if all they did was pick diving catches.  His point was, if he needs to dive, maybe... just maybe... he's prone to being out of position or even getting late jumps on a ball that others great centerfielders catch in stride.

Oh, and same goes for Andruw Jones.  If I were to rate the centerfielders in the NL as to who is great and who is one step below, it would go like this:

1. Carlos Beltran
2. (insert whoever you want here, it doesn't matter, they don't hold a cnadle to the jugador de cinco ramientas.

This is how I feel about Adam Everett as well.





Regarding shortstops, another good example that goes back before your time (and almost before mine) is Gene Alley.

Alley was the Pirates shortstop through most of the 1960's, the other, non-Polish half of the terrific Pittsburgh DP combination in those years.  Alley was a bit like Adam Everett in some ways, 6 ft. tall and thin, a terrific fielder with speed but not much of a bat.

It sounds like old guy "back in my day" talk, but ask anyone who saw them, or even only saw tape of them -- a 4-6-3 Pirates double play, Bill Mazeroski to Alley to Willie Stargell or Donn Clendenon or whoever they had standing around 1st base that day - it was a very beautiful thing.  Both Maz and Alley were so quick and smooth with the footwork and glovework, one got the impression  a few frames had been skipped on the exchange.  Where'd the ball go?

Anyway, Alley went along like this for a few years.  Mazeroski won Gold Glove after Gold Glove (and deservedly so), while Alley kept getting beat out by guys like Ruben Amaro and Leo Cardenas.  But in 1966 and 1967, Alley suddenly had two very good offensive years - he hit for average and a little power, and got on base at a reasonable clip, and for the only two times in his career had an OPS above the league average.  (Harry "The Hat" Walker had taken over the Pittsburgh club in 1965, and had made it a point to take a few of the Pirates weaker hitters, Alley and Matty Alou among them, under his wing in order to teach them hitting. . . with fairly dramatic and immediate results.)  Alley's fielding those two years wasn't really any better or worse than always, but those were the years he won his two Gold Gloves.  When his offense headed back down to previous levels in 1968 and after (by then Walker had left for "greener" pastures, you could say), the Gold Gloves went with it.

Come to think of it, the Harry Walker-Gene Alley offensive symbiosis was very similar to that of Ed Brinkman, another weak-hitting SS, and Ted Williams in Washington a year or two later.  But that is for another time.  I mean, I just spent an entire post on the mid-60's Pirate DP combo.  I'm starting a history column here, man.

mihoba

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Re: Wow.
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2007, 06:49:52 am »
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I'm starting a history column here, man.




Now there's a idea, hmmmm.
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