Author Topic: Bagwell hitters camp.  (Read 3047 times)

das

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Bagwell hitters camp.
« on: January 25, 2007, 09:26:43 am »
Why in the world is Koby Clemens going?
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

JimR

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 11:17:12 am »
boy, that's a tough one.
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Phil_in_CS

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 11:27:50 am »
do you mean beyond the points that (a) he needs to learn to hit better and (b) make his daddy happy?

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 12:24:22 pm »
Quote:

Why in the world is Koby Clemens going?




Because Houston couldn't get ESPN's attention to announce they're willing to retire #22 as soon as Clemens decides to really hang up the spikes?  You know, it's hard to get national attention to show how much you really, really, really love your man these days.  What did Andy Pettitte say... oh yeah... the Houston Astros just didn't show the same "full court press" bag-o-tricks to court Andy as the Yankees did.

Iffin' the Yanks are putting out press releases that Cano is willing to give up the number 22, the least Houston can do to counter is to rent an airplane and have the announcement that Koby Clemens is invited to special camp done in sky writing.

Think ESPN will interupt SportsCenter to point out that Koby will be at Baggy Camp 2007?

JimR

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 12:29:43 pm »
the Yankees are trying to trade for Koby as we speak. ARod straight up.
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das

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 12:31:59 pm »
Yea, I know.  The cheap tricks just seem so un-Astro.  Hate to see a spot to the camp wasted on a non-entity (in the game/performance sense).  I'd just as soon see the Clemens sideshow hit the road...
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

JimR

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 12:33:23 pm »
why do you think Koby was drafted at all, much less so high?
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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 12:41:43 pm »
Quote:

Yea, I know.  The cheap tricks just seem so un-Astro.  Hate to see a spot to the camp wasted on a non-entity (in the game/performance sense).  I'd just as soon see the Clemens sideshow hit the road...




Hey, Andy Pettitte said "cheap tricks is what I want!" (singing... "I want youuuuuu to want meeeee... I need youuuuu to need meeeee... didn't I, didn't I, didn't I see youuuuu cryin'.... oooohhhh).

Pettitte represented by Team Bastards.  Clemens represented by Team Bastards.  Pettitte very fragile ego.  Clemens very healthy ego.  Team Bastards, well... whose to say what sort of ego float they want, but suffice it to say, if the Astros learned anything from the Pettitte PR nightmare is that you don't let the Yankee dictate how to run a full court press in your own house (sorry for the mix metaphors... I didn't start it... Andy and the Yankees did).

Cheap, meaningless tricks like showing the love to a kid like Koby Clemens (above some others who may be more deserving?) is just doing your due dilligence on the check off list of ego stroking, full court press moves available to you.

I expect a rebuttal move from the Yankees soon.

das

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 12:50:11 pm »
Again, I know.  I just don't like it.  This begs a different thought.  While I like the old-school Astros that played the game right without much fanfare, I also appreciate the revenue that the current marketing-savvy management group has been able to generate and all the benefits it brings the team.  Sometimes, in situations like this, it's hard to reconcile the two...
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

JimR

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 12:53:43 pm »
i do not think you should try to reconcile them. there are courtesy drafts every year all over MLB. the drafting of Koby is not unusual in MLB, and Drama Queen is good enough to make that a great idea.
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Duman

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 12:54:17 pm »
Quote:

Why in the world is Koby Clemens going?




Remember, he is just 2 years removed from High School and is already up to low A ball and spent some time in Winter ball.  I am not disputing that the Clemens name doesn't help.  But do we really think this is all about Roger?  He is a prospect, thus he is at the camp.  Who would you prefer to be there in his place?
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JimR

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 12:55:52 pm »
please. he is not a prospect. he is a Clemens.
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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 01:03:01 pm »
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please. he is not a prospect. he is a Clemens.




Unless Chris Johnson steps it up this year, Clemens might be the best 3b prospect the Astros have.  How's that for depth behind Morgan?
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Duman

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 01:09:05 pm »
Quote:

please. he is not a prospect. he is a Clemens.




I am not saying he is a great prospect.  I think his age and the systems lack of 3rd basemen does make him a prospect.  Again the name doesn't hurt but there is something else there.
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JimR

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 01:16:33 pm »
that is NOT what makes a prospect. maybe he will make it, but at this stage, he is Roster Filler and was drafted as a courtesy.
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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2007, 01:17:09 pm »
I'm actually having some fun with the invite, but the best part of making fun is when it smacks of some truth... a lot of truth in it.

The Clemens name does have a lot to do with Koby at this point when it comes to some perks usually afforded to better prospects, so he has to show he can rise above the name and be his own man.  It's not as hard as it should be, but it can be very tough.  Pete Rose Jr., Reid Ryan, John Henry Williams, there are plenty of kids of HOF-type of performers who have to try not only to make there own name in baseball but to rise well above just being average and to be great like good ol' dad.

It is very tough.

The sons of good major leaguers, like David Bell, Bob Boone, his sons Brett and Aaron (who gets huge brownie points for marrying an ex-Playboy centerfold) tend to do much better.  They don't have HOF careers, at least not stratospheric type of HOF careers to try and match or better.

Koby Clemens is just an average to below average player right now who could become a nice player in the majors one day... if he works hard.  But elite isn't something that anyone should be using with Koby at this time.  But then again, is the word elite in the Baggy Camp sort of misused when we talk about Astros *hitting* prospects any way?

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2007, 01:27:07 pm »
Quote:

Again, I know.  I just don't like it.  This begs a different thought.  While I like the old-school Astros that played the game right without much fanfare, I also appreciate the revenue that the current marketing-savvy management group has been able to generate and all the benefits it brings the team.  Sometimes, in situations like this, it's hard to reconcile the two...




Me too.  On the other hand, if he's not taking somebody elses spot, if they're not sending someone because Clemens is there that's one thing.  But if he's just there as a side show.  Fine, see how long he likes being a circus freak.

Jacksonian

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2007, 01:30:03 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Again, I know.  I just don't like it.  This begs a different thought.  While I like the old-school Astros that played the game right without much fanfare, I also appreciate the revenue that the current marketing-savvy management group has been able to generate and all the benefits it brings the team.  Sometimes, in situations like this, it's hard to reconcile the two...




Me too.  On the other hand, if he's not taking somebody elses spot, if they're not sending someone because Clemens is there that's one thing.  But if he's just there as a side show.  Fine, see how long he likes being a circus freak.





It's a safe bet he's not taking anyone else's slot.
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homer

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2007, 01:44:12 pm »
 
Quote:

The sons of good major leaguers, like David Bell, Bob Boone, his sons Brett and Aaron (who gets huge brownie points for marrying an ex-Playboy centerfold) tend to do much better. They don't have HOF careers, at least not stratospheric type of HOF careers to try and match or better.




You make this assertion with the only evidence being perhaps the best examples over the last 10 years. What about the hundreds if not thousands of sons of the 'good not great' major leaguers that try and fail? What about the sons of really bad major leaguers? They would have the best shot by this logic.

A name might open a door, but to be good/great requires talent and hard work. The father's accomplishments have nothing to do with the success of the son.
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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2007, 02:55:34 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

The sons of good major leaguers, like David Bell, Bob Boone, his sons Brett and Aaron (who gets huge brownie points for marrying an ex-Playboy centerfold) tend to do much better. They don't have HOF careers, at least not stratospheric type of HOF careers to try and match or better.




You make this assertion with the only evidence being perhaps the best examples over the last 10 years. What about the hundreds if not thousands of sons of the 'good not great' major leaguers that try and fail? What about the sons of really bad major leaguers? They would have the best shot by this logic.

A name might open a door, but to be good/great requires talent and hard work. The father's accomplishments have nothing to do with the success of the son.





It wasn't meant as a quatifiable remark, but an observational one.

gleach

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2007, 03:26:55 pm »
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but if anyone wants some free tickets to the camp, PM me.  I have four that I won't be using.
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HurricaneDavid

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2007, 04:07:22 pm »
Quote:

i do not think you should try to reconcile them. there are courtesy drafts every year all over MLB.




See: Piazza, Mike
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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2007, 07:13:11 am »
Quote:

Quote:

i do not think you should try to reconcile them. there are courtesy drafts every year all over MLB.




See: Piazza, Mike





Piazza IIR was one of the last players taken in the Dodger's draft that year.  Koby was the 10 taken by the Astros.  I think there might be a difference.  To pick Koby that high, the Astros are taking a chance of ridicule if there wasn't some potential there.  

I realize that it is a small sample size but I have seen 3 years of kids come through Greeneville and of the kids out of high school and one year of college, he has been one of the better hitters.  Players drafted higher than him are still struggling (Ralphie, Timmy Johnson, Brandon Barnes, Allan Langdon).
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HurricaneDavid

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2007, 02:18:06 pm »
The point was, Piazza was rumored to have been a courtesy draft pick because Tommy Lasorda was the godfather of someone in the Piazza family.  One would assume that for every Piazza, there's probably a hundred courtesy picks that never amount to anything.
"Ground ball right side, they're not gonna be able to turn two OR ARE THEY, THROW, IS IN TIME!!! WHAT AN UNBELIEVABLE TURN BY BRUNTLETT AND EVERETT, AND THEY CUT DOWN MABRY TO END THE GAME, AND THE ASTROS LEAD THIS NATIONAL LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES THREE GAMES TO ONE!!!!!"

jaklewein

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Re: Bagwell hitters camp.
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 02:32:06 pm »
Quote:

The point was, Piazza was rumored to have been a courtesy draft pick because Tommy Lasorda was the godfather of someone in the Piazza family.  One would assume that for every Piazza, there's probably a hundred courtesy picks that never amount to anything.




Hate to speak for someone else, but I think his point was that most courtesy picks happen in the very late stages of the draft.  Clemens on the otherhand was drafted in the 8th round.