Random HOF stat of the day...

[Houston]

In his entire 20-year career (1982-2001), Tony Gwynn only struck out 434 times. From 1999-2001, Preston Wilson K'd 450 times.

[Limey]

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In his entire 20-year career (1982-2001), Tony Gwynn only struck out 434 times. From 1999-2001, Preston Wilson K'd 450 times.

Gwynn's strike zone was much smaller than that for other players: it was 50% occupied by his gut.

[JimR]

check out Joe Sewell's K stats.

[pravata]

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In his entire 20-year career (1982-2001), Tony Gwynn only struck out 434 times. From 1999-2001, Preston Wilson K'd 450 times.

"I always thought that they put the bat in your hand for a reason: to make contact with the ball."  Tony Gwynn The Link

[Houston]

I remember him from my days of memorizing practically every stat as a kid. He fanned 114 times in 14 years, which is pretty amazing because he also walked a lot. I guess if it weren't a strike, he wasn't swinging.

But in all due respect, he didn't face split-fingered fastballs or other gimmick/contemporary pitches. On the other hand, he probably saw a lot of spitters.

[JimR]

i do not think what the pitcher is throwing makes the difference; it is the hitter's approach to each AB. Sewell is said to have fouled off millions of pitches until he walked or put it in play. i think one year he only struck out 4 or 5 times.

[Houston]

He had six seasons when he struck out four times or less. The most he ever had was 20 during the free-swinging days early in his career.

 Joe Sewell's stats

[Arky Vaughan]

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i do not think what the pitcher is throwing makes the difference; it is the hitter's approach to each AB. Sewell is said to have fouled off millions of pitches until he walked or put it in play. i think one year he only struck out 4 or 5 times.

He had nine years in single digits playing more or less full-time.

The Link

[DVauthrin]

absolutely.  Think david eckstein, or a lot of lefty slap type hitters.

[No? in Austin]

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He had six seasons when he struck out four times or less. The most he ever had was 20 during the free-swinging days early in his career.

 Joe Sewell's stats

This was right after the dead ball era in baseball, when a foul ball was considered a strike.  Sewell was one of the first to take advantage of the rule change and use foul balls to his advantage.

[Arky Vaughan]

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This was right after the dead ball era in baseball, when a foul ball was considered a strike.  Sewell was one of the first to take advantage of the rule change and use foul balls to his advantage.

The foul-strike rule was implemented almost two decades before Sewell's major-league debut. Fouls had been considered strikes (except the third strike) for a long time before Sewell came along.

[Arky Vaughan]

See The Link, with respect to the Phillies' Roy Thomas:

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After graduating in 1894 Thomas joined a team of college standouts that beat several National League teams in exhibition games. He attracted the attention of the Phillies, who signed him in 1898, and quickly became a star, batting .325 his rookie year with a .457 OBP via 115 walks, and immediately establishing himself as the Phils' leadoff hitter and center fielder.

He soon became the perennial league leader in walks, but his method infuriated the opposition. At the time foul balls were not counted as strikes, and Thomas, who became adept at fouling off good pitches, worked an astonishing number of free passes.

The issue came to a head in 1900. Late in a close game against the Cincinnati Reds, Roy Thomas fouled off a dozen pitches before drawing a walk. The pitcher, Bill Phillips, responded by punching Thomas. Phillips had seen Thomas' tactics before. In an earlier game Thomas had fouled off 27 pitches against him in one at bat. Then, in a game against the Brooklyn Superbas (as the Dodgers were known then), Thomas was again fouling off numerous good pitches until he was walked. The opposing manager was predictably angry. Only this time the manager was Ned Hanlon, who was on the National League's Rules Committee. Hanlon shouted from the dugout: "Have your fun now, kid, because we're going to take care of you for next year."

Sure enough, the Rules Committee met after the season and changed the foul-strike rule so that fouls before the third strike count as strikes; the American League followed suit in 1903. Ironically the rule-change had little effect on Thomas. After the new rule went into effect, he led the league in walks six out of the next seven seasons. According to Thomas, "calling strikes on earlier fouls simply handicapped the less experienced players."

[geezerdonk]

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Gwynn's strike zone was much smaller than that for other players: it was 50% occupied by his gut.

Dude needs to get his weight under control. I would hate to see him go the way of Kirby Puckett.

[VirtualBob]

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See The Link, with respect to the Phillies' Roy Thomas:

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After graduating in 1894 Thomas joined a team of college standouts that beat several National League teams in exhibition games. He attracted the attention of the Phillies, who signed him in 1898, and quickly became a star, batting .325 his rookie year with a .457 OBP via 115 walks, and immediately establishing himself as the Phils' leadoff hitter and center fielder.

He soon became the perennial league leader in walks, but his method infuriated the opposition. At the time foul balls were not counted as strikes, and Thomas, who became adept at fouling off good pitches, worked an astonishing number of free passes.

The issue came to a head in 1900. Late in a close game against the Cincinnati Reds, Roy Thomas fouled off a dozen pitches before drawing a walk. The pitcher, Bill Phillips, responded by punching Thomas. Phillips had seen Thomas' tactics before. In an earlier game Thomas had fouled off 27 pitches against him in one at bat. Then, in a game against the Brooklyn Superbas (as the Dodgers were known then), Thomas was again fouling off numerous good pitches until he was walked. The opposing manager was predictably angry. Only this time the manager was Ned Hanlon, who was on the National League's Rules Committee. Hanlon shouted from the dugout: "Have your fun now, kid, because we're going to take care of you for next year."

Sure enough, the Rules Committee met after the season and changed the foul-strike rule so that fouls before the third strike count as strikes; the American League followed suit in 1903. Ironically the rule-change had little effect on Thomas. After the new rule went into effect, he led the league in walks six out of the next seven seasons. According to Thomas, "calling strikes on earlier fouls simply handicapped the less experienced players."

Great post.  Thanks.  This is why baseball is played for nine innings over three hours and cricket is played for two innings over five days.

[No? in Austin]

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This was right after the dead ball era in baseball, when a foul ball was considered a strike.  Sewell was one of the first to take advantage of the rule change and use foul balls to his advantage.

The foul-strike rule was implemented almost two decades before Sewell's major-league debut. Fouls had been considered strikes (except the third strike) for a long time before Sewell came along.

In 1901 to be exact.  However, just going by memory here, the dead ball era lasted till about 1918 or so, again if I remember.  Swinging for homeruns became vogue, however Sewell kept the practice of fouling off pitches in vogue for himself and that wasn't something hitters were now doing in the 20s.  They were like Ruth, a high strikeout batter in his own right.

Sorry for my confusion to the matter.  It also helped that foul ball strikes on strike three were eliminated too... although I don't remember when that happened.  Sewell was smart to tailor his game to take advantage of his own limitations or better still his own approach.

[EmirOfSchmoe]

Joe Dimaggio hit 361 career home runs over 13 seasons and struck out 369 times.

Ted Williams hit 521 career home runs over 19 seasons and struck out 709 times.

They don't make em like that anymore.

[Arky Vaughan]

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In 1901 to be exact.  However, just going by memory here, the dead ball era lasted till about 1918 or so, again if I remember.  Swinging for homeruns became vogue, however Sewell kept the practice of fouling off pitches in vogue for himself and that wasn't something hitters were now doing in the 20s.  They were like Ruth, a high strikeout batter in his own right.

Sorry for my confusion to the matter.  It also helped that foul ball strikes on strike three were eliminated too... although I don't remember when that happened.  Sewell was smart to tailor his game to take advantage of his own limitations or better still his own approach.

I don't think fouls ever counted for third strikes.

One interesting thing that has been written about Ruth is that when he first started swinging for the fences, he was one of the few if not the only one doing that. So while the Dead Ball Era ended, not everything changed over night. Ruth blazed the path, and the others followed. If you look at the home run leaders, Ruth leads the pack by a pretty big margin usually.

So while Sewell was exercising great bat control, there were a lot of other guys still doing that. I recall reading an old-timer talking about how players in his time (even the '20s and '30s) were still embarrassed by striking out, whereas modern players aren't.

This is probably the usual mixture of nostalgic half-truth and fact, but I think it's not a stretch to say that for several years after the Lively Ball Era began, there were plenty of players like Sewell who swung for contact, not power. Sewell was simply one of the best among them.

[No? in Austin]

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In 1901 to be exact.  However, just going by memory here, the dead ball era lasted till about 1918 or so, again if I remember.  Swinging for homeruns became vogue, however Sewell kept the practice of fouling off pitches in vogue for himself and that wasn't something hitters were now doing in the 20s.  They were like Ruth, a high strikeout batter in his own right.

Sorry for my confusion to the matter.  It also helped that foul ball strikes on strike three were eliminated too... although I don't remember when that happened.  Sewell was smart to tailor his game to take advantage of his own limitations or better still his own approach.

I don't think fouls ever counted for third strikes.

One interesting thing that has been written about Ruth is that when he first started swinging for the fences, he was one of the few if not the only one doing that. So while the Dead Ball Era ended, not everything changed over night. Ruth blazed the path, and the others followed. If you look at the home run leaders, Ruth leads the pack by a pretty big margin usually.

So while Sewell was exercising great bat control, there were a lot of other guys still doing that. I recall reading an old-timer talking about how players in his time (even the '20s and '30s) were still embarrassed by striking out, whereas modern players aren't.

This is probably the usual mixture of nostalgic half-truth and fact, but I think it's not a stretch to say that for several years after the Lively Ball Era began, there were plenty of players like Sewell who swung for contact, not power. Sewell was simply one of the best among them.

Cool.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Joe Dimaggio hit 361 career home runs over 13 seasons and struck out 369 times.

Ted Williams hit 521 career home runs over 19 seasons and struck out 709 times.

They don't make em like that anymore.

Pujols is not quite that good at resisting strikeouts, but his strikeout numbers are extremely low given the power he displays. Bonds has been pretty good in that respect as well.

[HurricaneDavid]

The image of Tony Gwynn that is tattooed on my brain was him in the 98 NLDS, facing a wicked slider from Randy Johnson, seemingly all out of balance as the pitch practically started behind him, flinging the bat at it and dunking in a base hit to LF.

[No? in Austin]

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The image of Tony Gwynn that is tattooed on my brain was him in the 98 NLDS, facing a wicked slider from Randy Johnson, seemingly all out of balance as the pitch practically started behind him, flinging the bat at it and dunking in a base hit to LF.

That was the staple of how Gwynn hit.  He'd wait on a baseball to reach the strikezone better than anyone I ever saw hit a baseball.  When you can allow the ball to get to the zone as deep as he did and then use your wrist and hands to adjust your swing and just serve it to where the ball was pitched, you were going to have contact of the best kid.  Contact that produced base hits.

He was the master of letting the ball get deep into the zone, but because of it, he suffered in the power department, something that perhaps in this modern day of yackball would've been seen as a bad thing in his game.

[JimR]

i had an assistant coach on my '97 team (who i had coached in '75!) who was a really good college hitter. when he worked with Mark and the other guys, he would say over and over: "Let it travel, son. Let it travel." what he meant, of course, was let the ball get deep in the strike zone, and that forces them to stay back to drive the ball.

[Taras Bulba]

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i had an assistant coach on my '97 team (who i had coached in '75!) who was a really good college hitter. when he worked with Mark and the other guys, he would say over and over: "Let it travel, son. Let it travel." what he meant, of course, was let the ball get deep in the strike zone, and that forces them to stay back to drive the ball.

Ted Williams was big on that.  I did the best that I could to follow that advice but (unlike Williams, Gwynn, and Bonds) was hampered by being mortal.

[Duman]

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i had an assistant coach on my '97 team (who i had coached in '75!) who was a really good college hitter. when he worked with Mark and the other guys, he would say over and over: "Let it travel, son. Let it travel." what he meant, of course, was let the ball get deep in the strike zone, and that forces them to stay back to drive the ball.

Coach Jim, let me ask a question.  My son is almost 7.  His coach is instructing him to meet the ball out in front of the plate.  That sounds different from what I am hearing here.  Is it different?

[JimR]

for a young kid, that is not bad advice if he stays back in his stance as he swings. i told my kid baseball guys to try to hit the ball at the front part of the plate so that they would get the bat started. 7 year olds are WAY different than good HS players. don't let him lunge or jump forward to hit the ball. if he swings at it at the front of the plate while staying back, that will be fine at 7.

[Duman]

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for a young kid, that is not bad advice if he stays back in his stance as he swings. i told my kid baseball guys to try to hit the ball at the front part of the plate so that they would get the bat started. 7 year olds are WAY different than good HS players. don't let him lunge or jump forward to hit the ball. if he swings at it at the front of the plate while staying back, that will be fine at 7.

Thanks

[No? in Austin]

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for a young kid, that is not bad advice if he stays back in his stance as he swings. i told my kid baseball guys to try to hit the ball at the front part of the plate so that they would get the bat started. 7 year olds are WAY different than good HS players. don't let him lunge or jump forward to hit the ball. if he swings at it at the front of the plate while staying back, that will be fine at 7.

Thanks

I coached 7 and 8 year olds last spring/summer (coach pitch baseball).  I taught them some minor mechanic adjustments, primarily to keep the back elbow up to provide a more level swing.  The other thing I provided as a key was to really pay attention to the pitchers hand.  At first, about half of did it well and other half were confused.  So I asked for permission to be catcher for our team (since it was an uncessary position in coach pitch any way).  I had a Dad pitch for the team who had a classic overhand pitch that was perfect (I didn't let him lob it nor show the ball and toss it in there... I had him sit on one knee and come over hand with it... they'll hit it, don't worry).  So the kids would stand like I told them, every once and awhile I would remind them to keep the back elbow up and then when I saw the hand at the apex of the coach's pitch, I would tell the kid to start his/her swing.  By the time the pitch reached the plate, they were meeting it well.  Even the kids who were considered the non-talented kids made contact and would smile broadly to the Moms and Dads in the bleachers.  Some of them I stopped reminding them when to start the swing and then by the end of the season, I stopped saying anything (and also catching).  I had the best hitting coach pitch team in Y-ball that spring and some of the other coaches and even parents of other teams were wondering how our kids knew how to hit a baseball so well.  Good coaching?  Not entirely, just good kids having fun and picking up little things to make it more fun.

My greatest joy last year was pitching the last game.  My son is on that team, so I got to pitch to him and he, hitting left handed as I taught him (and I'm a natural right handed hitter, I just used common sense), hit two screamers right back up the middle.

I thought about throwing at him like Roger Clemens did to Koby last spring, but figured I'll wait until he's a little older and he can rush the mound and take me out fairly.  It shouldn't be long now, I'd say when he's... oh.. 10 years old or so.

[No? in Austin]

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don't let him lunge or jump forward to hit the ball.

It becomes a problem when you're older, believe me.  One time I was baffled why I couldn't hit a lick at the start of a season.  The previous season, I hit 12 homeruns and had a very high batting average, so I thought I was doing everything the same way.  Nope, I figured out that I was so into wanting to show how good I could hit and follow up my great season with another one that I was lunging at the ball.  I couldn't stop myself from swinging way ahead of the pitch, even fastball.

So one game, I told myself to stay back and wait.  Guy throws a fastball and I wait and then swing very level.  That ball travelled so far into centerfield, the centerfielder decided just to stop running and look how far it would land.  That was the longest homerun I ever hit.  When you have everything working right, it's just effortless to hit a good fastball.

[JimR]

don't let them point the elbow straight out, though. it should point down at the ground and be at about chest level.

[No? in Austin]

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don't let them point the elbow straight out, though. it should point down at the ground and be at about chest level.

Yup.  The ones I would have to tell "elbow up", would do funny quick straight out on the elbow.  I would laugh to myself.  The elbow would eventually trickle down where it needed to be when the pitch was starting.  The better hitting kids on the team would pick the elbow up to where it should be (almost like magic).

When I looked at other teams, the kids had the flaps down, meaning the back elbow was tucked near the rib cage and they swung the baseball like they were swinging a pinata stick.  Anyway, I didn't think about teaching beyond those points was necessary, no head position, front leg position (squash the bug) et. al.

I had a squad of kids who all hit the ball.  Now defense, that is where we had some fun learning the game!

[strosrays]

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Joe Dimaggio hit 361 career home runs over 13 seasons and struck out 369 times.

Ted Williams hit 521 career home runs over 19 seasons and struck out 709 times.

They don't make em like that anymore.

Pujols is not quite that good at resisting strikeouts, but his strikeout numbers are extremely low given the power he displays. Bonds has been pretty good in that respect as well.

Gary Sheffield has always impressed me, in that sense.  I don't think anyone swings harder at the ball, but he's never struck out that much for a power hitter, especially in this era.

Gwynn carried on the tradition of Rod Carew, who was sometimes adjusting his stance and actually moving his feet around in the batter's box as he hit the ball.  Ichiro! is even a closer comp to Carew, come to think of it.  I watched Ichiro! some, and I think he actually hits better when he is moving around in there.  He'd be a great tennis player, BTW.

Carew and Matty Alou were the prototype slap hitters in the late '60s, early '70s, at least by the time I started paying attention.  Of course, Rose got a lot of singles, too, but he didn't really slap at it.

My favorite guy to watch hit back then, though, maybe my favorite hitter ever, was Carew's teammate on the Twins, Tony Oliva.  Left-hander, and damn he had a beautiful swing.  Oliva wasn't a slap hitter; he was more like a left-handed Clemente, it seemed like everything he hit was a laser into the gaps. Had decent power, too.  Bad knees shortened his career, or who knows what he would have ended up with.  For a few seasons, Minnesota's 1-2-3 were Cesar Tovar, Carew, and Oliva.  That's about 550-600 hits a year, from your top three guys.  With Killebrew standing over there on deck, waiting to drive them all in.

Anyway, Carew and Gwynn and Ichiro! and those guys were/are just carrying on a tradition that goes all the way back to Wee Willie Keeler, I guess.  Hit it where they ain't.

[mihoba]

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Joe Dimaggio hit 361 career home runs over 13 seasons and struck out 369 times.

Quite the opposite of his older brother Vince, who lead the NL in K's his first two seasons playing in Boston, including an all-time high (at the time) 134 in his sophomore campaign and went on to four more league "K" titles during the war years patrolling center field for the Pirates and Phillies.

 Vince DiMaggio

[HudsonHawk]

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don't let them point the elbow straight out, though. it should point down at the ground and be at about chest level.

When I coached 11/12 year olds, I told them about "the box".  Not THAT box, but the "box" made between their upper arm, their forearm and the bat.  They all had the classic problem of dropping their hands when the pitch came, so I told them to always keep that box.  When they move, the box moved with them.  That kept their hands up and forced a top-hand swing, instead of uppercutting.  I told them to practice it in front of the mirror every night.

[No? in Austin]

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don't let them point the elbow straight out, though. it should point down at the ground and be at about chest level.

When I coached 11/12 year olds, I told them about "the box".  Not THAT box, but the "box" made between their upper arm, their forearm and the bat.  They all had the classic problem of dropping their hands when the pitch came, so I told them to always keep that box.  When they move, the box moved with them.  That kept their hands up and forced a top-hand swing, instead of uppercutting.  I told them to practice it in front of the mirror every night.

Last spring, my first as the manager/coach of the team my son plays on, was a lot of fun for me.  I decided to teach defense to these kids.  Parents were baffled at first, thinking hitting was the most important.  I even had one parent pull his kid from our team and put him in another team.  His kid was a good hitter, but Dad wanted him to be a great hitter!  *sheesh*

Any way, I didn't spend a lot of time on hitting or batting practice during our practice time.  I spend almost all the time in our practices on hand positioning on defense, using your body properly, squaring up to throw, fielding a groundball correctly, how to keep a pop fly in front of you to follow it properly all the way into the glove, et. al.

My two favorite times was when we did throwing drills and fielding ground balls.  I wouldn't even let them touch a baseball until they got the fundamentals down (as well as a 7 and 8 year old could).

So we made mistakes our first three or four games for sure on defense.  We still had kids who forgot every thing we would review each practice.  We still had kids who would cross over into shallow left field and they were my second baseman or even first baseman (even my pitcher who stood next to the coach).  It was funny, so there was no problem or yelling from me.  So we worked on it again and again.

On one Saturday, I placed my defense like we practices the Wednesday before.  First kid on the other team steps up (usually coaches batted their best hitters first, second, etc.)  This was a big kid, he swung hard, but a little late.  He hits the first pitch thrown square, right on the money.  It was a worm burner and was headed straight for my first baseman (where I had positioned him away from the bag... most kids playing first in this league are always on the bag when the pitch is made).

I'm thinking to myself "get out of the way Tyler!", but he stands his ground, has his hands positioned perfectly, has his knees bent right where they should be.  The most important thing was his hands being right where they should be.  He tracks this ball like a pro, sees the ball (remember this was a smash) all the way into the glove and then tumbles backwards.  Parents all gasp for a second, but Tyler gets up, runs to the bag and gets the kid out by five steps.  The huge kid is angry that little Tyler made such an awesome play.  Parents are high fiving each other, mothers are crying, all the other kids run to Tyler and are jumping up and down and Tyler is still wondering how he did it.

When they all came in to bat, they were all saying "man, I can't wait to catch a ball like Tyler... I want to have them hit it to me next!"  "Yeah, me too!".  So pretty much for the rest of the ten game season, they tried to catch the ball like they were taught and also throw it like they were taught.  Nobody made a play like Tyler the rest of the season, but suffice it to say Tyler made the play because he did everything right with his hand position to even get him ready to make such a play.

My proudest moment as a coach.

[Duman]

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don't let them point the elbow straight out, though. it should point down at the ground and be at about chest level.

When I coached 11/12 year olds, I told them about "the box".  Not THAT box, but the "box" made between their upper arm, their forearm and the bat.  They all had the classic problem of dropping their hands when the pitch came, so I told them to always keep that box.  When they move, the box moved with them.  That kept their hands up and forced a top-hand swing, instead of uppercutting.  I told them to practice it in front of the mirror every night.

Last spring, my first as the manager/coach of the team my son plays on, was a lot of fun for me.  I decided to teach defense to these kids.  Parents were baffled at first, thinking hitting was the most important.  I even had one parent pull his kid from our team and put him in another team.  His kid was a good hitter, but Dad wanted him to be a great hitter!  *sheesh*

Any way, I didn't spend a lot of time on hitting or batting practice during our practice time.  I spend almost all the time in our practices on hand positioning on defense, using your body properly, squaring up to throw, fielding a groundball correctly, how to keep a pop fly in front of you to follow it properly all the way into the glove, et. al.

My two favorite times was when we did throwing drills and fielding ground balls.  I wouldn't even let them touch a baseball until they got the fundamentals down (as well as a 7 and 8 year old could).

So we made mistakes our first three or four games for sure on defense.  We still had kids who forgot every thing we would review each practice.  We still had kids who would cross over into shallow left field and they were my second baseman or even first baseman (even my pitcher who stood next to the coach).  It was funny, so there was no problem or yelling from me.  So we worked on it again and again.

On one Saturday, I placed my defense like we practices the Wednesday before.  First kid on the other team steps up (usually coaches batted their best hitters first, second, etc.)  This was a big kid, he swung hard, but a little late.  He hits the first pitch thrown square, right on the money.  It was a worm burner and was headed straight for my first baseman (where I had positioned him away from the bag... most kids playing first in this league are always on the bag when the pitch is made).

I'm thinking to myself "get out of the way Tyler!", but he stands his ground, has his hands positioned perfectly, has his knees bent right where they should be.  The most important thing was his hands being right where they should be.  He tracks this ball like a pro, sees the ball (remember this was a smash) all the way into the glove and then tumbles backwards.  Parents all gasp for a second, but Tyler gets up, runs to the bag and gets the kid out by five steps.  The huge kid is angry that little Tyler made such an awesome play.  Parents are high fiving each other, mothers are crying, all the other kids run to Tyler and are jumping up and down and Tyler is still wondering how he did it.

When they all came in to bat, they were all saying "man, I can't wait to catch a ball like Tyler... I want to have them hit it to me next!"  "Yeah, me too!".  So pretty much for the rest of the ten game season, they tried to catch the ball like they were taught and also throw it like they were taught.  Nobody made a play like Tyler the rest of the season, but suffice it to say Tyler made the play because he did everything right with his hand position to even get him ready to make such a play.

My proudest moment as a coach.

Ain't it great when they get it right!  Good story

[mihoba]

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My proudest moment as a coach.

Keep up the good work No?, and you'll have many more of those moments.