Loretta to sign with the Astros

[S.P. Rodriguez]

 Per agent's statement.

[MusicMan]

Excellent move by Purp, if true.

[ValpoCory]

I agree.  Go Stros.

[pravata]

"...the Rangers offered more money, (agent) Garber said Houston was a better opportunity."  An Astros kind of guy.

[Curly]

Holy cow, I don't remember him with the 'stros at all in 2002.  I guess we got him from the Brewcrew late in the season?  ABs were limited, what was the deal here?

[Bench]

That's terrific. He's always been a favorite of mine. It's good to have him back on the team.

[Foghorn]

I hope he's back on the roids.

Though I guess this makes Burke a full time CFer, no bouncing around between 2B and CF.

[Holly]

Ah, nice pickup, if it happens

[Bench]

Quote:
Holy cow, I don't remember him with the 'stros at all in 2002.  I guess we got him from the Brewcrew late in the season?  ABs were limited, what was the deal here?

It was a deadline deal. Astros traded the great Wayne Franklin and Keith Ginter to get him.

[ValpoCory]

Quote:
Holy cow, I don't remember him with the 'stros at all in 2002.  I guess we got him from the Brewcrew late in the season?  ABs were limited, what was the deal here?

RR Express fans will always remember the Loretta trade.  To us, it was the Keith Ginter trade.

And of course, Wayne Franklin dealt a couple devastating blows to the Astros playoff run as well, beating Roy Oswalt twice IIRC.

August 31, 2002: Traded by the Milwaukee Brewers with cash to the Houston Astros for players to be named later. The Houston Astros sent Wayne Franklin (September 3, 2002) and Keith Ginter (September 5, 2002) to the Milwaukee Brewers to complete the trade.

[Curly]

That's right.

[JimR]

outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ginter was no loss whatsoever. he juiced in RR and was not the same after he stopped.

[Curly]

That wasn't juice, that was funnel cake.

[MRaup]

Quote:
That wasn't juice, that was funnel cake.

He should've stuck with the super-nachos.

[pravata]

Quote:
outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...

Purpura specifically listed a hitter, a 2 pitcher, and a super utility guy as targets for the offseason.  Done, done, and done.

[Jacksonian]

That would pretty well set up the non-pitching part of the roster.

C
Ausmus
?

IF
Berkman
Biggio
Bruntlett
Ensberg
Everett
Lamb
Loretta

OF
Burke
Lee
Lane
Palmeiro
Scott

I think I've heard Garner prefers a 12 man pitching staff so if the Astros go with 14 non-pitchers it will be interesting to see who doesn't make the pitching staff.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:
outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...

Purpura specifically listed a hitter, a 2 pitcher, and a super utility guy as targets for the offseason.  Done, done, and done.

Yup, yup, yup.

Build a team, not just sign guys to say you've signed guys and kept the fans happy!

Nice move.

[VirtualBob]

Quote:

Ginter was no loss whatsoever. he juiced in RR and was not the same after he stopped.

Not sure why I never made that obvious connection.  '00 was certainly his "career year".  BTW, he just signed a minor league deal with Cleveland and will go to camp as an NRI.  I still wish him well.

[Uncle Charlie]

I thought I remembered that Loretta played his ass off for us though.  So much so that he had priced himself out of Houston.  I remember he was very clutch.

Great move though.  He's insurance for Biggio and a true utility type who can make a difference in the game as a PH

[ValpoCory]

Quote:
I thought I remembered that Loretta played his ass off for us though.  So much so that he had priced himself out of Houston.  

That and Houston had a better option with JK that signed the same week that Loretta signed with the Padres.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Quote:
That would pretty well set up the non-pitching part of the roster.

C
Ausmus
?

IF
Berkman
Biggio
Bruntlett
Ensberg
Everett
Lamb
Loretta

OF
Burke
Lee
Lane
Palmeiro
Scott

I think I've heard Garner prefers a 12 man pitching staff so if the Astros go with 14 non-pitchers it will be interesting to see who doesn't make the pitching staff.

The beauty of that roster is the bench options Garner now has.  He has his lefty power, lefty tough-out, right handed power, and, now, his right handed tough out (Loretta).  Not to mention the versatility for late inning maneuvering that having someone like Loretta, in addition to Bruntlett allows.  They may not be outstanding defenders at every position but they won't lose a game because of inadequate defense.  

As for the 14/11 split, I may be alone in this but I doubt Purpura is done dealing.  Footer's article detailing the catching situation laid out the surplus of catchers without options.  They also may not need 5 outfielders with Bruntlett capable of providing spot starts in the outfield.  
Just a thought, anyway.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
As for the 14/11 split, I may be alone in this but I doubt Purpura is done dealing.  Footer's article detailing the catching situation laid out the surplus of catchers without options.

You're not alone, I agree with this.  The Count now has options to explore deals during spring training if he wants to persue yet another starter.  Not that he has to make a deal, but he now has the options to do so or stay with the team as is and go to battle with them.  It is nice to have your options ready in case a deal for say... oh... Morgan Ensberg emerges and you might want to pull the trigger on it (Loretta/Lamb platoon at third?).  Just saying.

The Count has manuevered Houston into a very good position now.  Nice work!

Quote:
They also may not need 5 outfielders with Bruntlett capable of providing spot starts in the outfield.  
Just a thought, anyway.

Eggszactly.

[Twoniner]

 Nice move Timmmay.

[Taras Bulba]

Quote:
Nice move Timmmay.

The east coast media brains had earlier claimed that Loretta was a lock for the same "utility" capacity with the Yankees.  That was considered then to show how strong New York was, to have a guy of Loretta's abilities in that role.  Now that the Bushnecks in flyover country have him, what does that make them?

I like the guy.  He's a ballplayer.

[toddthebod]

Nice move by the Astros.

[David in Jackson]

It'll be interestng to see how much time Loretta gets at 2b and Biggio rests, and, of course, one of the big 2007 questions: What will Ensberg do and how much Loretta must play there due to Moberg's lack of production.  I agree this puts Burke full-time in the OF.

[ASTROCREEP]

Very nice!!!

Can Loretta still play short, if something happens to Adam.
And does he have the arm for 3rd?

I prefer Adam, with Woody and Jennings coming, it seems there will be a lot of ground balls. (I have no data to justify that)

[Tralfaz]

Quote:
Nice move by the Astros.

Nice call on the one last week Toddthebod.

[JimR]

one needs a better arm at SS than at 3rd.

[MikeyBoy]

Quote:
one needs a better arm at SS than at 3rd.

It's amazing how many people aren't aware of this fact.

Lamb, OP, Loretta, and EB make up a very strong bench. Great job by the Count with putting this team together.

[Trey]

Quote:
one needs a better arm at SS than at 3rd.

Being that my knowledge of baseball puts me somewhere between "retarded" and "functionally retarded", could someone explain this?  It seems rather counterintuitive (you know, 3B being a lot further away from 1B and to a lesser extent 2B than SS).  I've always been under the impression that you needed more arm as you moved around the diamond from 1B.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Can Loretta still play short, if something happens to Adam.

In a Chris Burke sort of way, which means you want Eric Bruntlett to play short in a pinch, not Loretta.  But if you have to in extra innings, it's good to have options with four guys who can handle the position.

Quote:
And does he have the arm for 3rd?

Arm isn't necessary as quickness and accuracy.  You only need an arm if you have a tendency to play back more than unsual and tend to get yourself stuck in the far reaches of third.  Guys like Rolen can play back because of the great arm, others play a more regular third base and use accuracy to their advantage.

[VirtualBob]

Quote:

Quote:
one needs a better arm at SS than at 3rd.

Being that my knowledge of baseball puts me somewhere between "retarded" and "functionally retarded", could someone explain this?  It seems rather counterintuitive (you know, 3B being a lot further away from 1B and to a lesser extent 2B than SS).  I've always been under the impression that you needed more arm as you moved around the diamond from 1B.

Try running full speed away from your target and then trying to throw to it over your left shoulder ... you'll get some idea.

Also, bear in mind that the ball gets to 3B a *lot* quicker than SS, leaving more time to set and throw.

And finally, the distance from the infield grass at 3B to 1B and the distance from the outfield grass in the hole at SS to 1B are not all that different.

The "real" experts can probably add to this initial 'take'.

[toddthebod]

Jim.  Who has a better arm, Bruntlett or Loretta?  Last season, Bruntlett was the primary replacement when the Astros pinch hit for Everett.  I wonder if this is going to change.  

I would like to see Loretta get at least two starts at second per week (particularly on the road), and ocassional starts at third and first.

Loretta should also be the late inning defensive replacement for Biggio.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:
one needs a better arm at SS than at 3rd.

Being that my knowledge of baseball puts me somewhere between "retarded" and "functionally retarded", could someone explain this?  It seems rather counterintuitive (you know, 3B being a lot further away from 1B and to a lesser extent 2B than SS).  I've always been under the impression that you needed more arm as you moved around the diamond from 1B.

Blind leading the blind here, but I've played both positions before (40 pounds ago) and trust me you need an arm for short way before you do at third.

Shortstop plays further back in the infield than other positions in order to make plays to their right or left.  Once they reach the ball, they could possibly be making throws from near outfield proportions.  Third baseman need more accuracy than they do a cannon arm.  The ball is on you quicker at third (Hot Corner is right) than it is at third.  You tend to react and set and throw more at third.  At short you use your range to get to the ball first, then set and then throw.  That is why catchers are sometimes tried at third base late in their careers.  Not for the arm sake, but because of the cat-like quickness the position requires.

[hostros7]

I think it also has to do with the fact that to play the shortstop position (especially at the MLB level you have to have great range...and for that that range to be effective, it follows that you must have a strong arm.  

As mentioned above, strong arm for third base definitely comes into play when positioned deep or on a slow-rolling bare hander that the 3b charges.  Or if your Cammy... throwing lasers from your knees after backhanding lasers down the line.

[CrawfordBoxes]

Very nice pickup to round out our bench.

[Houston]

There's also the consideration of the relay throws. Third basemen normally are only on involved in relays from inside the diamond, while the SS can be anywhere from the LF line to backing up the RF line.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
Nice move Timmmay.

The east coast media brains had earlier claimed that Loretta was a lock for the same "utility" capacity with the Yankees.  That was considered then to show how strong New York was, to have a guy of Loretta's abilities in that role.  Now that the Bushnecks in flyover country have him, what does that make them?

I like the guy.  He's a ballplayer.

Here's a description of Loretta's situation circa 12/22. The Link Also instructive concerning the stratification of the market for players.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
I think it also has to do with the fact that to play the shortstop position (especially at the MLB level you have to have great range...and for that that range to be effective, it follows that you must have a strong arm.  

As mentioned above, strong arm for third base definitely comes into play when positioned deep or on a slow-rolling bare hander that the 3b charges.  Or if your Cammy... throwing lasers from your knees after backhanding lasers down the line.

***WARNING - DENIAL LEAGUE MOMENT IN 3... 2... 1...turn back now!****

I played on a team that had me at first base but we had to find a place for our hard throwing pitcher for some games to keep his bat in the lineup (no DH at the time and he couldn't pitch every game we played).  So they put him at third.

He threw the ball over to first on a laser beam and it was on me in a hurry.  I mean a blink of an eye.  I feared for my life, so I told him to ratchet it down a little when he threw over to get the guy out.  He threw guys out by 15 steps or more, some were still coming out of the batters box when I had the ball in my glove.

He informed me he *WAS* tossing it over and it was his version of ratching it down.  I begged the manager to put him at short or in the outfield, but did he listen to me?  NO, he didn't.

So I moved to left field where it was safe.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
one needs a better arm at SS than at 3rd.

Being that my knowledge of baseball puts me somewhere between "retarded" and "functionally retarded", could someone explain this?  It seems rather counterintuitive (you know, 3B being a lot further away from 1B and to a lesser extent 2B than SS).  I've always been under the impression that you needed more arm as you moved around the diamond from 1B.

Blind leading the blind here, but I've played both positions before (40 pounds ago) and trust me you need an arm for short way before you do at third.

Shortstop plays further back in the infield than other positions in order to make plays to their right or left.  Once they reach the ball, they could possibly be making throws from near outfield proportions.  Third baseman need more accuracy than they do a cannon arm.  The ball is on you quicker at third (Hot Corner is right) than it is at third.  You tend to react and set and throw more at third.  At short you use your range to get to the ball first, then set and then throw.  That is why catchers are sometimes tried at third base late in their careers.  Not for the arm sake, but because of the cat-like quickness the position requires.

Most plays at 3rd you're coming in.  Except the shot down the line and that play only requires you to set your back foot.  Got plenty of time.  At short there's the side to side moves and the backhand deep in the hole.  Unless you're an acrobat like Eckstein and somehow put yourself in the right position every time, there's a lot of throws that depend entirely on your arm.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

Quote:
one needs a better arm at SS than at 3rd.

It's amazing how many people aren't aware of this fact.

You think that's something...I had an argument with Cardinal fans last summer...they were arguing that David Eckstein plays SS because he doesn't have a strong enough arm to play 2B.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
one needs a better arm at SS than at 3rd.

It's amazing how many people aren't aware of this fact.

You think that's something...I had an argument with Cardinal fans last summer...they were arguing that David Eckstein plays SS because he doesn't have a strong enough arm to play 2B.

That's what you get for arguing with a Cardinal fan.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

That's what you get for arguing with a Cardinal fan.

FanS.  There was a whole cadre of them.  They were absolutely insistant that 2B required the strongest arm in the infield.

[Bench]

Quote:

Quote:

That's what you get for arguing with a Cardinal fan.

FanS.  There was a whole cadre of them.  They were absolutely insistant that 2B required the strongest arm in the infield.

Of course it is. The double play is the most important play in baseball and a second baseman has to do it all the time. Also, turning a double play is only about arm strength. There is absolutely no footwork or positioning involved.

[JackAstro]

Quote:

Quote:

That's what you get for arguing with a Cardinal fan.

FanS.  There was a whole cadre of them.  They were absolutely insistant that 2B required the strongest arm in the infield.

How did you make it out without your head exploding? Just agree to disagree? Punch someone in the windpipe? I honestly need to know.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

How did you make it out without your head exploding? Just agree to disagree? Punch someone in the windpipe? I honestly need to know.

After enduring a barage of insults to my baseball knowledge and a check to make sure I understood that they were The Best Fans in Baseball, I simply threw my hands up and left the conversation.

[ASTROCREEP]

OK, I got it, footwork is most important for a SS.


So does Loretta still have the footwork to play short?

[DVauthrin]

wise move.   Anybody who says 2b has to have the strongest infield arm should not be classified as the best fans in baseball because it's apparent they know little about the game.

I like the loretta signing, he gets on base well, and will add to the flexibility of the club.   Burke and Loretta one-two some games will be the best pair of OBP guys the club has had in front of lance in awhile.

[astrox]

Quote:
I thought I remembered that Loretta played his ass off for us though.  So much so that he had priced himself out of Houston.  I remember he was very clutch.

With the Astros, Loretta reminded me of the Great Bill Spiers.  It's good to have him back.

[JimR]

reread.

[pravata]

Here's what Loretta had to say about his skills in 2004 when he went to Whale Vagina,

"I was looking for a team that would commit to me playing second everyday, because that's my best position," he said. ...

With an average infielder's arm and so-so foot speed, Loretta's physical tools don't make a smashing first impression, but his consistency and dedication to playing intelligently stand out in the long run....

"I'm not one of those five-tool guys," Loretta admitted. "I wasn't even drafted as a high school senior or college junior. I try to make up for that with smart positioning, fundamentals and thinking. People who are immersed in baseball realize that defense, pitching and doing things right makes the difference between a winning team and a second-division team."

... In a recent MLB.com poll, he was among the players mentioned most often as a candidate for a future job as a manager. (That'll make things crowded. Garner is going to have to elbow his way to the lineup card.)
The Link

Consider too his options for this season, Red Sox prefered the comedy stylings of Julio Lugo at short, Mets considered Loretta for 2d, Yankees at 1st and the Rangers a backup 3b.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Quote:
Here's what Loretta had to say about his skills in 2004 when he went to Whale Vagina,

"I was looking for a team that would commit to me playing second everyday, because that's my best position," he said. ...

With an average infielder's arm and so-so foot speed, Loretta's physical tools don't make a smashing first impression, but his consistency and dedication to playing intelligently stand out in the long run....

"I'm not one of those five-tool guys," Loretta admitted. "I wasn't even drafted as a high school senior or college junior. I try to make up for that with smart positioning, fundamentals and thinking. People who are immersed in baseball realize that defense, pitching and doing things right makes the difference between a winning team and a second-division team."

... In a recent MLB.com poll, he was among the players mentioned most often as a candidate for a future job as a manager. (That'll make things crowded. Garner is going to have to elbow his way to the lineup card.)
The Link

Consider too his options for this season, Red Sox prefered the comedy stylings of Julio Lugo at short, Mets considered Loretta for 2d, Yankees at 1st and the Rangers a backup 3b.

Another outstanding example why it's hard to out "scoop" you!  (Not that I'm trying to)

Nice insight into this signing.  I was dissappointed when the Astros didn't re-sign him after his initial stint with the team.  I understood, with the personnel they had and were bringing in, there wasn't a fit.  I still hate to see smart players move on.  

I'm not so sure about the Bill Speiers comparisons.  However, Loretta may be entering the Jose Vizcaino stretch of his career.  That's no insult, either.

[mihoba]

Excellent, Loretta is an experienced professional who is solid is his role, and will help in many ways.

[Taras Bulba]

"...comedy stylings of Julio Lugo..."

Well done.  What's the over and under on the number of boots before Fenway turns on him?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I'm starting to think you are on to something (or maybe clairvoyant).
   Loretta article in the Chron this morning.


"Phil really encouraged Tim and I to see if we could get him," Astros owner Drayton McLane said of Loretta. "He loved the ballpark, loved the fans in Houston and really likes Phil. He had other opportunities elsewhere, but he really, really wanted to be a Houston Astro."

"I'm shocked he's available," Purpura said.

And

Purpura said. "Frankly, from Mark's point of view, Phil as the manager is a positive for Mark. Phil is a favorite of Mark's, and Mark is a favorite of Phil's. He's an Astros-type player. He's our type of player."

[strosrays]

Quote:

Quote:
I think it also has to do with the fact that to play the shortstop position (especially at the MLB level you have to have great range...and for that that range to be effective, it follows that you must have a strong arm.  

As mentioned above, strong arm for third base definitely comes into play when positioned deep or on a slow-rolling bare hander that the 3b charges.  Or if your Cammy... throwing lasers from your knees after backhanding lasers down the line.

***WARNING - DENIAL LEAGUE MOMENT IN 3... 2... 1...turn back now!****

I played on a team that had me at first base but we had to find a place for our hard throwing pitcher for some games to keep his bat in the lineup (no DH at the time and he couldn't pitch every game we played).  So they put him at third.

He threw the ball over to first on a laser beam and it was on me in a hurry.  I mean a blink of an eye.  I feared for my life, so I told him to ratchet it down a little when he threw over to get the guy out.  He threw guys out by 15 steps or more, some were still coming out of the batters box when I had the ball in my glove.

He informed me he *WAS* tossing it over and it was his version of ratching it down.  I begged the manager to put him at short or in the outfield, but did he listen to me?  NO, he didn't.

So I moved to left field where it was safe.

Even worse than a Denial League moment, how about a hoary, nostalgia-soaked From Back In My Playing Days moment?

I played 3B in high school after knee cartilage problems moved me from behind the plate.  I didn't have terrific range, but had quick reflexes, and what was considered a very strong arm.  

It's probably a matter of geometry more than anything, but I think most throws a 3B makes are considerably shorter than those a SS usually makes, or even those a 2B often makes, especially if he likes to play deep.  Not only that, but except for cutting across in front of the SS, almost all the throws a 3B makes are in a "straight line" to 1B; a SS and 2B are often throwing while moving away from or parallel to their target, and a 2B who plays in short right has to make throws downhill and at weird angles, if that makes any sense, to a moving target (the 1B heading for the bag.)  Also, most times from 3B one's full momentum is going toward 1B on throws.  In fact, it was harder for me to throw accurately to 2B, which was actually closer, because most times instead of moving toward 2B I was throwing flat-footed, especially if we were trying to turn a 5-4-3 DP.  I think my "strong arm" from 3B, if I actually had one, was more attributable to being good at getting the ball and then quickly squaring up and getting myself moving toward 1B on my throws more so than to any natural arm strength.

This was quickly proven when our coach thought I might be able to better utilize my arm in the OF, and tried me out there for a few pre-district games.  I could run down the fly balls all right, but I could barely get my throws back to the infield.  A rough analogy would be like taking a 100m sprinter and putting him in the 10000m run.  My throws back to the infield took off great, but after 100 feet or so they just died.  Suddenly, I was a "rag arm."  It was embarrassing, man.

*****

BTW, like everyone else, I like this signing very much.  I remember being disappointed when it became impossible for Houston to sign Loretta to a deal after 2002.  This is one of those overlooked "minor" deals that could cause a lot of other things to fall into place, and could prove to be very shrewd.

Actually, it looks pretty shrewd already.

[pravata]

Quote:
I'm starting to think you are on to something (or maybe clairvoyant).
   Loretta article in the Chron this morning.


"Phil really encouraged Tim and I to see if we could get him," Astros owner Drayton McLane said of Loretta. "He loved the ballpark, loved the fans in Houston and really likes Phil. He had other opportunities elsewhere, but he really, really wanted to be a Houston Astro."

"I'm shocked he's available," Purpura said.

And

Purpura said. "Frankly, from Mark's point of view, Phil as the manager is a positive for Mark. Phil is a favorite of Mark's, and Mark is a favorite of Phil's. He's an Astros-type player. He's our type of player."

Easy, when I read he had turned down cashy money to play for the Astros instead, well then it was obvious, he's a Scrouge Mclane type of player...  Read in the NY Times today that the Yankees will not be out bid for Clemens.  Now we'll see if he's an Astro type.

[pravata]

Quote:
"...comedy stylings of Julio Lugo..."

Well done.  What's the over and under on the number of boots before Fenway turns on him?

1. That's not the worst part, he double pumps so much that he looks exactly like the barrista at the Starbucks in the tunnel at One Shell Plaza working through a backlog of triple espressos during the Monday morning rush.

[lc_db]

Quote:

Quote:
"...comedy stylings of Julio Lugo..."

Well done.  What's the over and under on the number of boots before Fenway turns on him?

1. That's not the worst part, he double pumps so much that he looks exactly like the barrista at the Starbucks in the tunnel at One Shell Plaza working through a backlog of triple espressos during the Monday morning rush.

Thanks...  I just had a Sean Berry - RunAcrossHalfThe InfieldBeforeThrowing flashback.

[MikeyBoy]

Funny...it reminded me that I have a 11AM meeting in One Shell. As for Starbucks I prefer the one under Pennzoil/BoA, much better scenery. As for Lugo, once the Ben and company turn on him for chasing his muffs around like Rocky trying to catch a chicken, his error totals are going to increase faster than Morgan Spurlock's cholesteral level.

[Froback]

So basically we have determined:

3B: Best reflexes on IF (cat-like)
SS: Best arm on IF (and best range)
2B: Best Footwork on IF

Although Best is a poor word choice... but all other things being equal.

I will add 1B: Most limber on IF (Gotta be able to stretch, scoop, AND maintain a foot on 1B)

[Tralfaz]

Quote:
I will add 1B: Most limber on IF (Gotta be able to stretch, scoop, AND maintain a foot on 1B)

Now hold on juuuust a minute. Most limber IF?  Doesn't Lance Berkman dispell this proposition?  I'd have to hang that one on the guy squating behind home plate for nine innings.

 Edit to add:  I know, not an IF by definition, but close enough to it.

[mihoba]

Quote:
I will add 1B: Most limber on IF (Gotta be able to stretch, scoop, AND maintain a foot on 1B)

1B should be most "lumber" (carry a BIG stick)