Scraped out of NYCU...

[das]

'Jennings is a pitcher who induces a lot of ground balls and excels with a good defense behind him. ...

"One of the things that Phil and I really like about him is he's a sinkerballer," Purpura said.'

So, How has Jennings faired with a mediocre defense behind him?  Biggio at 2nd, Lamb platooning at 3rd, and, of course, the current outfield configuration.  Thoughts?

[DVauthrin]

Quote:
'Jennings is a pitcher who induces a lot of ground balls and excels with a good defense behind him. ...

"One of the things that Phil and I really like about him is he's a sinkerballer," Purpura said.'

So, How has Jennings faired with a mediocre defense behind him?  Biggio at 2nd, Lamb platooning at 3rd, and, of course, the current outfield configuration.  Thoughts?

No defense is mediocre with Adam Everett at SS and Lance Berkman at 1B.    Heck just everett makes for an average/to above average infield defense.

[BizidyDizidy]

Everett, Ensberg, Burke, Berkman, Ausmus is potentially the best infield in the league.

[Limey]

Quote:
No defense is mediocre with Adam Everett at SS and Lance Berkman at 1B.    Heck just everett makes for an average/to above average infield defense.

Also, doesn't the infield typically play a little back in Coors as a matter of course?  Something to do with there being 1 1/2 miles between them and the outfielders, IIRC.  More of Jennings' grounders should become put outs instead of infield singles at MMPUS.

[Fredia]

didnt they have one of the highest percentages of not making errors?

[No? in Austin]

Lead the league at turning double plays by a wide margin even with Craig Biggio at second as well.

[schlumburger04]

jennings wasnt a groundball pitcher last year and wasnt much of one in previous years(when he sucked)

i wouldnt get too excited over his sinkerness

[Froback]

Quote:
jennings wasnt a groundball pitcher last year and wasnt much of one in previous years(when he sucked)

i wouldnt get too excited over his sinkerness

I am not sure what you consider a groundball pitcher then.

For his career he has a 1.52 G/F ratio.  And that with last year being 1.27.
2006 1.27
2005 1.83
2004 1.54
2003 1.51

Roy was 1.52 last year, and he was 22 in all of baseball in G/F ratio.

So other than last year, you could argue he was top 25 in grounball/flyball ratio... That is a groundball pitcher to me.

[DVauthrin]

   Uh yes he was.   He may not have been an "extreme" groundball pitcher, but he had more groundballs than flyballs last year and every season of his career.   Most of which came in an environment where it was tough for him to get the movement on his pitches that he needs to be successful.

[Lefty]

Quote:
I am not sure what you consider a groundball pitcher then....

So other than last year, you could argue he was top 25 in grounball/flyball ratio... That is a groundball pitcher to me.

Top 15 2002-05.  

Given the difficulty of evaluating a pitcher spending half his time at Coors, I wonder what his home/road splits were.

[schlumburger04]

 

Quote:
So other than last year, you could argue he was top 25 in grounball/flyball ratio... That is a groundball pitcher to me.

25th out of how many? top 25 of say 75 isnt much to write home about

he stunk it up when he was a "groundball" pitcher. id rather just have him continue doing what he did last year when he was neutral.

[DVauthrin]

I don't care what saber geeks consider flyball/groundball/neutral as far as pitchers go.  A 1.27 GB/FB ratio is a groundball pitcher.

[schlumburger04]

i dont care what they think either, but id say 1.27 is just the g/f of any random pitcher.

so do you consider all pitchers as either groundballers or flyballers?

[DVauthrin]

Quote:
i dont care what they think either, but id say 1.27 is just the g/f of any random pitcher.

so do you consider all pitchers as either groundballers or flyballers?

Depends on the ratio.   If it's 100/99.  Then yes, they are neutral.    But 294/232 is a groundball pitcher to me.    Not a brandon webb super extreme one, but a pitcher who leans more towards groundballs yes.

[Limey]

Quote:
25th out of how many? top 25 of say 75 isnt much to write home about

30 teams, 5-man rotation per team, that's 150 if you don't include relievers or part-time starters.  If you average 12 pitchers a year on each team, that's 360.  Top 25 out of 360 or even 150 is not bad.

[Ty in Tampa]

Quote:
jennings wasnt a groundball pitcher last year and wasnt much of one in previous years(when he sucked)

At least you assert your stupidity with authority. You got that going for you.

[Froback]

Yes, I rated him based on people who pitched 160+ innings.  That helps leave out people who don't pitch much and can skew things.

As far as 1.27, yes that is pretty average.  However there are people who are more likely to give up ground balls as opposed to fly balls.  That may not mean much, after all the best pitcher in baseball Santanna gives up about a 1/1 ratio.  So you can succeed either way.

Calling him a 1.27 G/F ratio pitcher is not really considering the whole.  It was the fluke year, and while his ERA was fluke also last year in reference to his career numbers, it was his ERA in Coors that really changed greatly.  He is probably between 3.50 and 4 ERA.  But as has been pointed out by many, he is an inning eater.  He is probably never going to push for ERA titles, but then he is not being asked to be an ace.

And yes there are two categories to pitchers, ground ball and fly ball pitchers.  Where you break them down is up to you.  But he was also one of the best at NOT giving up HRs.  Another way to rate pitchers and their effectiveness.  And he was better than Roy in that area in 06 as well, 17 vs 18.  When you add in the fact that he pitched in Coors for 1/2 his games, that is extraordinary in the good area.

I think you are really being closed minded when considering him.  He isn't Pettitte or Clemens, but he is better than you are giving him credit for.

[Lefty]

If you read Noe's quote from astros.com in the other Jennings thread, his increased use of his 4-seamer last year would be a very good indicator of why his gb ratio dropped off.

One more weapon in the arsenal, adding the ability to come upstairs when the situation dictates with the continued ability to get grounders when needed.  Sounds good to me.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
If you read Noe's quote from astros.com in the other Jennings thread, his increased use of his 4-seamer last year would be a very good indicator of why his gb ratio dropped off.

One more weapon in the arsenal, adding the ability to come upstairs when the situation dictates with the continued ability to get grounders when needed.  Sounds good to me.

Jason Hirsh tried to do the same thing when he came up because he did the exact same thing in AAA.  However, it is different challenging a major league lineup with a four seamer when you're in a 3-2 count consistently thant a AAA lineup when they'll swing at the sinkerball a lot and get themselves into pitchers counts.

Jennings basically said the magic word to me: "matured", as in he knows how to pitch in this league.  If you hear that from a pitcher, he's found his groove and watch out when a pitcher has a very good idea how to get you out as a major league hitter.

[schlumburger04]

 

Quote:
I think you are really being closed minded when considering him. He isn't Pettitte or Clemens, but he is better than you are giving him credit for.

well i havent really said anything about his effectiveness as a pitcher, just mentioning that he isnt much of a groundball pitcher. i actually think hes gonna be pretty good next year

[schlumburger04]

Quote:

Quote:
25th out of how many? top 25 of say 75 isnt much to write home about

30 teams, 5-man rotation per team, that's 150 if you don't include relievers or part-time starters.  If you average 12 pitchers a year on each team, that's 360.  Top 25 out of 360 or even 150 is not bad.

only half those of those 150 qualify for era title(which is where he got his numbers). and if you count relievers, do you really think hed stay at top 25?

[Lefty]

Quote:
Jennings basically said the magic word to me: "matured", as in he knows how to pitch in this league.  If you hear that from a pitcher, he's found his groove and watch out when a pitcher has a very good idea how to get you out as a major league hitter.

Yep, yep.  I had missed that quote earlier, definitely what you want to hear.

[Limey]

Quote:
only half those of those 150 qualify for era title(which is where he got his numbers). and if you count relievers, do you really think hed stay at top 25?

So he's in the top 25 of the top 50%, which makes him in the top 12.5% of the top 100%.

I'm glad you don't add up my bar tab.

[Froback]

If you count all people who pitched a ball in 2006, a 1.52 G/F would be 162 (Roy Oswalt) out of 635 total pitchers.  Doing quick math that is top 25%.  So sorry you are wrong.

[schlumburger04]

wrong about what? we were talking about top 25, not top 25%

[Froback]

Ok, so by your standard only the top 25 people are groundball pitchers.  Got it.  Thanks.  So only the top .5% of all pitchers are groundball pitchers, thus the bottom .5% are fly ball pitchers and the 99% of pitchers left are neither.

Wow, you are narrow minded!

[schlumburger04]

i really dont understand how you came to that conclusion, especially since you were the one to bring up top 25

but if you must know, id consider 1.5/1.6 to be groundball and around 2 to be an effective groundballer.

[Arky Vaughan]

In 2006, 77 pitchers threw at least 162 innings. Jennings ranked 37th among them in groundball/flyball ratio.

In 2005, Jennings failed to pitch 162 innings.

In 2004, 85 pitchers threw at least 162 innings. Jennings ranked 26th among them in groundball/flyball ratio.

In 2003, 89 pitchers threw at least 162 innings. Jennings ranked 22nd among them in groundball/flyball ratio.

In 2002, 83 pitchers threw at least 162 innings. Jennings ranked 12th among them in groundball/flyball ratio.

In 2001, Jennings failed to pitch 162 innings.

The National League groundball/flyball ratios, plus Jennings' groundball/flyball ratios, were as follows:

Year  League  Jennings
----------------------
2006    1.22      1.27
2005    1.24      1.83
2004    1.24      1.54
2003    1.29      1.51
2002    1.27      1.64
2001    1.21      1.59

[DVauthrin]

Quote:
In 2006, 77 pitchers threw at least 162 innings. Jennings ranked 37th among them in groundball/flyball ratio.

In 2005, Jennings failed to pitch 162 innings.

In 2004, 85 pitchers threw at least 162 innings. Jennings ranked 26th among them in groundball/flyball ratio.

In 2003, 89 pitchers threw at least 162 innings. Jennings ranked 22nd among them in groundball/flyball ratio.

In 2002, 83 pitchers threw at least 162 innings. Jennings ranked 12th among them in groundball/flyball ratio.

The National League groundball/flyball ratios, plus Jennings' groundball/flyball ratios, were as follows:

Year  League  Jennings
----------------------
2006    1.22      1.27
2005    1.24      1.83
2004    1.24      1.54
2003    1.29      1.51
2002    1.27      1.64
2001    1.21      1.59

Those are good stats, and even with his more even ratio last year, he was still a slight groundball pitcher.

[Arky Vaughan]

Jennings' home/road groundball/flyball splits:

Year  Home  Road
----------------
2006  1.55  1.06
2005  2.62  1.32
2004  1.41  1.71
2003  1.94  1.34
2002  1.56  1.72

[Phil_in_CS]

Quote:

Quote:
only half those of those 150 qualify for era title(which is where he got his numbers). and if you count relievers, do you really think hed stay at top 25?

So he's in the top 25 of the top 50%, which makes him in the top 12.5% of the top 100%.

I'm glad you don't add up my bar tab.

but he wouldn't notice if you stiffed him on the tip....

[strosrays]

Quote:
Jennings' home/road groundball/flyball splits:

Year  Home  Road
----------------
2006  1.55  1.06
2005  2.62  1.32
2004  1.41  1.71
2003  1.94  1.34
2002  1.56  1.72

Well, it appears he was trying to throw more groundballs in Coors.  Which would indicate if nothing else, he's pretty smart.  Not as smart as slumberjay, mind you.  Most of us can only aspire to so much.