Vince Young (non BB but what a CFer he would be)

[JimR]

my goodness, what a player.

[matadorph]

that was a ridiculous play. i'm bummed the Texans didn't draft him, but I'm happy to see him excel and cram it in the faces of all those who mocked his throwing motion and his wonderlic score.

The guy is a winner.

[JimR]

he's too good for the Texans. i don't care about either team, but i am in awe of what VY can do.

[CDastros]

It hurts even more to think that we could have had Vince a QB and Demeco at Middle linebacker.  2 studds to build around like that would have made the texans a tuff team for years to come.

Now we can only hope that Adrian Peterson falls to the texans in next years draft.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I just can't stand the Texans. I wanted them to draft VY so I could root for them. It's not Carr's fault, it's the damn way they draft that drove me over the edge. I can't believe I cheer for Bud Adams' team. Funny how shit works.

[Alkie]

This sounds like something I've said.  Word for word.

I wanted very badly to be a Texans fan, but there's something about the way they seem to DARE you to root for them.  "Sure, we're bad now, but just wait til you see what we don't do this offseason!"

Vince makes it easy for me to root for the Titans.  Having not been an Oiler fan makes it that much easier; since I didn't really give a shit about Adams.

[matadorph]

fuck that noise. I HATE Bud Adams.
What he did to the city of Houston and loyal Oilers fans like myself was unforgiveable.

I grew up a huuuuuuge Oilers fan. Earl Campbell was my hero. Some of my best childhood memories are of watching those big rivalry games in the late 70's with my dear old departed grandpa (who's the reason I'm a big sports fan today).

I can root for VY, but I won't root for the Titans.

[No? in Austin]

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Now we can only hope that Adrian Peterson falls to the texans in next years draft.

Wouldn't Brady Quinn be a much better pick?  Just asking because I don't know squat about the NFL any more (and really am happy about it too).

[matadorph]

Peterson's injury history makes him too risky to waste a first-round pick on. I think they should get a FA quarterback (Matt Schaub, for example) and continue to build the defense. They badly need to draft another cornerback because their secondary is fucking atrocious. How does an NFL defense let Drew Bennett get that wide open?

[Golden Sombrero]

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Now we can only hope that Adrian Peterson falls to the texans in next years draft.

Wouldn't Brady Quinn be a much better pick?  Just asking because I don't know squat about the NFL any more (and really am happy about it too).

Some good QBs will be available to the Texans in later rounds.  They might be able to get Kevin Kolb or Troy Smith in the 2nd or 3rd rounds, and save a bundle on the signing bonus.  Meanwhile, maybe get Jake Plummer (who amazingly is an improvement over Carr) to hold down the fort.

[drew corleone]

I'm convinced that there is nothing he cannot do on a football field.

[CDastros]

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Now we can only hope that Adrian Peterson falls to the texans in next years draft.

Wouldn't Brady Quinn be a much better pick?  Just asking because I don't know squat about the NFL any more (and really am happy about it too).

It looks like Quinn will be off the board by the time the Texans pick.  As bad as the Texans are, there are a handfull of teams that are worse.

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Peterson's injury history makes him too risky to waste a first-round pick on. I think they should get a FA quarterback (Matt Schaub, for example) and continue to build the defense. They badly need to draft another cornerback because their secondary is fucking atrocious. How does an NFL defense let Drew Bennett get that wide open?

The reason I like Adrian Peterson is because he fits perfectly in the zone blocking scheme.  He has the ability to run between the tackles and he also can bounce it outside with his speed.  He runs with great power and even with his injuries, he has put up a lot of yards with an average O-line.  His ability of size and speed is just to rare to pass up.

[HudsonHawk]

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I'm convinced that there is nothing he cannot do on a football field.

Then you haven't seen him much.  He still cannot throw down field.  I don't think he'll be a productive NFL quarterback because of it.  

Re: today's game, everone in the stadium *except* Gary Kubiak apparently knew VY would run on that last play.  And after they blew two timeouts in the last 2 minutes that could have given them a chance to win in regulation, I'm beginning to wonder if Kubiak is even paying attention during games.  

As for the Texans, love or hate, I don't care.  I root for the home town team, and I'll never EVER under any circumstances, even if they were the last team on earth, root for anything associated with Bud Adams.  That's just me though.

[HudsonHawk]

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Some good QBs will be available to the Texans in later rounds.

I like Kolb, and I'd love to see a UH guy do well, but I'm not so sure he can take the pounding in the NFL.  He's just not that big.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Some good QBs will be available to the Texans in later rounds.

I like Kolb, and I'd love to see a UH guy do well, but I'm not so sure he can take the pounding in the NFL.  He's just not that big.

Yeah, neither is Troy Smith.  That's one reason they should be available later on, and they won't be too pricey.  Worth a shot in my opinion.

[strosrays]

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Just asking because I don't know squat about the NFL any more (and really am happy about it too).

Me, too.  It leaves me on the outside looking in for some of the Monday morning office conversations, but for some of the Monday morning office conversations, I really don't mind being on the outside looking in.

Even back when I was a hardcore NFL fan, it used to bother me a little that I spent 1/2 my weekend basically sitting and watching.  Thankfully I'd lost interest before there were games on three or four nights a week in addition to Sunday afternoon.

My weekends are so free now.  Why, this afternoon, I spent an hour and a half clearing a sewer line.  And that's just one example.

[drew corleone]

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I'm convinced that there is nothing he cannot do on a football field.

Then you haven't seen him much.  He still cannot throw down field.  I don't think he'll be a productive NFL quarterback because of it.  

Re: today's game, everone in the stadium *except* Gary Kubiak apparently knew VY would run on that last play.  And after they blew two timeouts in the last 2 minutes that could have given them a chance to win in regulation, I'm beginning to wonder if Kubiak is even paying attention during games.

blah blah blah. I've read your rants on VY before.

It's a good thing your opinions have no bearing on whether or not VY becomes a superstar in the NFL.

*yawn*

[matadorph]

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I'm convinced that there is nothing he cannot do on a football field.

Then you haven't seen him much.  He still cannot throw down field.  

I've seen him throw some pretty sweet TD passes lately. Yes, he sometimes makes routine throws look extraordinarily difficult, but to say he can't throw downfield is fucking ridonkulous.

[HudsonHawk]

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It's a good thing your opinions have no bearing on whether or not VY becomes a superstar in the NFL.

Nope they don't.  Nor do yours.

[HudsonHawk]

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Yes, he sometimes makes routine throws look extraordinarily difficult, but to say he can't throw downfield is fucking ridonkulous.

Well as fucking ridiculous as you  may think that is, he can't.  I suppose you could aruge he can chuck a dying quail more than 20 yards, and that'd technically be accurate.  But I think we all know what I'm talking about here.

[Dobro]

Vince Young is obviously a good athlete, but I don't think he's the superstar that many believe he will be.  

And off the field, he's got a lot to learn.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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Some good QBs will be available to the Texans in later rounds.

I like Kolb, and I'd love to see a UH guy do well, but I'm not so sure he can take the pounding in the NFL.  He's just not that big.

He's big enough. Twenty pounds heavier and three inches taller than Drew Brees. He'll get a shot and I hope he does well. But it's always a crap shoot with QBs.

[matadorph]

And yet somehow he's managed to complete over sixty percent of his passes (for 4 TDs) over the last three weeks.

edit: to HH

[HudsonHawk]

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And yet somehow he's managed to complete over sixty percent of his passes (for 4 TDs) over the last three weeks.

And David Carr has completed nearly 70% of his.  That doesn't mean he's a good NFL passer.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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And off the field, he's got a lot to learn.

Don't we all.

[HudsonHawk]

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He's big enough. Twenty pounds heavier and three inches taller than Drew Brees. He'll get a shot and I hope he does well. But it's always a crap shoot with QBs.

I know he's listed at 6'3"/220, but that seems suspect to me.  Maybe that's just me.  I hope he gets a shot and does well though.  He seems to be a pretty bright guy, one who reads defenses well and doesn't make dumb decisions, and I'm sure that'll help.

[HudsonHawk]

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And off the field, he's got a lot to learn.

Don't we all.

Am I missing something about VY's off-field activities?  I'm critical of his passing skills relative to other NFL QBs, but I'm not aware of any off-field or "character" issues.

[JB77]

No, VY's never had any off-field issues after getting out of trouble as a young teenager. He's actually very community-conscious. And he can throw the ball just fine and will only get better at it.

[HudsonHawk]

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And he can throw the ball just fine and will only get better at it.

Time will tell.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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He's big enough. Twenty pounds heavier and three inches taller than Drew Brees. He'll get a shot and I hope he does well. But it's always a crap shoot with QBs.

I know he's listed at 6'3"/220, but that seems suspect to me.  Maybe that's just me.  I hope he gets a shot and does well though.  He seems to be a pretty bright guy, one who reads defenses well and doesn't make dumb decisions, and I'm sure that'll help.

He seems to have a great awareness of what's happening on the field. He's got a strong arm with a soft touch. Only 3 interceptions all year wont go unnoticed by the scouts.  I'm just so happy seeing the program do well. If the Coogs could pull off the upset in the Liberty Bowl and Kolb has a good game, he'll move up on the draft charts.

[No? in Austin]

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And off the field, he's got a lot to learn.

What he did after the win in the Rose Bowl last year was very punkish.  What he did today after the win was equal in punk-a-tude.  He's eventually going to have a lineman catch up to him and stomp the punk-a-holism out of him.

Until then, he's basically a really bad sportsman from my view from the couch.  Nothing humble about this kid at all.  He feeds off of being slighted by criticism or lack of awards like the Heisman or being the #1 pick.  He's amazing in his resolve and talent, he's less than amazing in his me-first attitude.

[HudsonHawk]

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He seems to have a great awareness of what's happening on the field. He's got a strong arm with a soft touch. Only 3 interceptions all year wont go unnoticed by the scouts.  I'm just so happy seeing the program do well. If the Coogs could pull off the upset in the Liberty Bowl and Kolb has a good game, he'll move up on the draft charts.

Did you see the three interceptions?  All three bounced off of receivers first.  His accuracy this season was amazing.

[Dobro]

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And off the field, he's got a lot to learn.

What he did after the win in the Rose Bowl last year was very punkish.  What he did today after the win was equal in punk-a-tude.  He's eventually going to have a lineman catch up to him and stomp the punk-a-holism out of him.

Until then, he's basically a really bad sportsman from my view from the couch.  Nothing humble about this kid at all.  He feeds off of being slighted by criticism or lack of awards like the Heisman or being the #1 pick.  He's amazing in his resolve and talent, he's less than amazing in his me-first attitude.

Bingo.  

This is the same punk who thought it would be appropriate to snub the office of the President of the United States by wearing a Tall Tee and baggy jeans around his knees when meeting the President.

[HudsonHawk]

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And off the field, he's got a lot to learn.

What he did after the win in the Rose Bowl last year was very punkish.  What he did today after the win was equal in punk-a-tude.  He's eventually going to have a lineman catch up to him and stomp the punk-a-holism out of him.

Until then, he's basically a really bad sportsman from my view from the couch.  Nothing humble about this kid at all.  He feeds off of being slighted by criticism or lack of awards like the Heisman or being the #1 pick.  He's amazing in his resolve and talent, he's less than amazing in his me-first attitude.

I wasn't aware of that.  What did he do after the Rose Bowl and after today's game?  I was at the game today, so I didn't see him afterwards.

[JB77]

He was excited and didn't hide it.

He didn't snub President Bush, that's funny. There was a mixup with with his suit and he later said that he was really embarrassed by it.

A pretty good interview:
 web page

[HudsonHawk]

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He was excited and didn't hide it.

He didn't snub President Bush, that's funny. There was a mixup with with his suit and he later said that he was really embarrassed by it.

A pretty good interview:
 web page

Well, there's a fine line between "youthful enthusiasm" and being a dickhead, and it's an easy one to blur.  I don't know much about VY personally, and I know nothing about his suit situation.  But he, like everyone else, has to be careful about being a professional on the field.

[BudGirl]

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He seems to have a great awareness of what's happening on the field. He's got a strong arm with a soft touch. Only 3 interceptions all year wont go unnoticed by the scouts.  I'm just so happy seeing the program do well. If the Coogs could pull off the upset in the Liberty Bowl and Kolb has a good game, he'll move up on the draft charts.

Did you see the three interceptions?  All three bounced off of receivers first.  His accuracy this season was amazing.

I ever tell you that Kevin Kolb and I are distantly related?  Plus, his grandparents have a cabin on Lake Mathis next to my parents.

I'm really excited for him too.

[Danimal]

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But he, like everyone else, has to be careful about being a professional on the field.

I call bullshit on those that decry the touchdown dance or the victory celebration. Not saying that you do, but I think that leagues and individuals are slowly draining sports and athletes of their passion and to some extent, fun. Who wants to watch a bunch of guys marching down the field like robots and shaking each others hands when they score? Give me passion please. If you win the game you can do whatever dance you want.

[HudsonHawk]

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But he, like everyone else, has to be careful about being a professional on the field.

I call bullshit on those that decry the touchdown dance or the victory celebration. Not saying that you do, but I think that leagues and individuals are slowly draining sports and athletes of their passion and to some extent, fun. Who wants to watch a bunch of guys marching down the field like robots and shaking each others hands when they score? Give me passion please. If you win the game you can do whatever dance you want.

I call bullshit on you then.  No place in any sport for showboating, IMO.

[HudsonHawk]

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But he, like everyone else, has to be careful about being a professional on the field.

I call bullshit on those that decry the touchdown dance or the victory celebration. Not saying that you do, but I think that leagues and individuals are slowly draining sports and athletes of their passion and to some extent, fun. Who wants to watch a bunch of guys marching down the field like robots and shaking each others hands when they score? Give me passion please. If you win the game you can do whatever dance you want.

And if you think the problem with professional sports is that there's not *enough* attitude and assflapping, well then I'm not sure what to tell you.

[jaklewein]

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Now we can only hope that Adrian Peterson falls to the texans in next years draft.

Wouldn't Brady Quinn be a much better pick?  Just asking because I don't know squat about the NFL any more (and really am happy about it too).

It looks like Quinn will be off the board by the time the Texans pick.  As bad as the Texans are, there are a handfull of teams that are worse.

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Peterson's injury history makes him too risky to waste a first-round pick on. I think they should get a FA quarterback (Matt Schaub, for example) and continue to build the defense. They badly need to draft another cornerback because their secondary is fucking atrocious. How does an NFL defense let Drew Bennett get that wide open?

The reason I like Adrian Peterson is because he fits perfectly in the zone blocking scheme.  He has the ability to run between the tackles and he also can bounce it outside with his speed.  He runs with great power and even with his injuries, he has put up a lot of yards with an average O-line.  His ability of size and speed is just to rare to pass up.

I like Peterson too, but I think that McFadden (sp?) kid from Arkansas is better.

[JB77]

Passion is different than showboating, sometimes it's the perception that changes one to the other. Big differences between football and baseball too.

[No? in Austin]

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Passion is different than showboating, sometimes it's the perception that changes one to the other. Big differences between football and baseball too.

I have to agree with you on the difference between football passion/show-up-the-competition regularity and acceptance and what is baseball and you'll-get-one-in-the-small-of-the-back-next time showmanship.

But there is just something about Vince Young and his tenure here in Austin and how he was just a tad into himself more than anything else.  He's probably not too far from being T.O.-ish if he continues to find success from his on-field drama.  He feeds off the stuff he reads and hears about him, negative or positive.  He doesn't show his respect for the competition and after the Rose Bowl, he decided it would be cute to strike a Heisman pose with the Sears Trophy.

Maybe it is all about how this is how acceptable conduct is in football.  I find it punkish, but admit I don't follow football enough to say I understand it goes with the territory.  In fact, because I don't follow football as much any more (since my mid-twenties when I gave up the sport as something I was really interested in), I am probably the last person to speak about proper conduct.

I'm just not used to grown men acting stupid when it comes to sportsmanship. I love baseball and the common courtesy of tipping the cap at the other team for a job well done.

[CDastros]

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I like Peterson too, but I think that McFadden (sp?) kid from Arkansas is better.

Mcfadden will not be eligable to come out until 2008 draft.  

[loganck]

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He's probably not too far from being T.O.-ish if he continues to find success from his on-field drama.

You're way off base on that one.  Ever heard T.O's ex-teammates talk about him?  How about Young's?  Notice the difference?

[No? in Austin]

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He's probably not too far from being T.O.-ish if he continues to find success from his on-field drama.

You're way off base on that one.  Ever heard T.O's ex-teammates talk about him?  How about Young's?  Notice the difference?

*IF* is important in what I said.  Famous words in here "He may be an asshole, but he's our asshole!"  Like I said, football is not a sport I follow much, but just watching him conduct himself, from my untrained and entirely uninformed eye, he's not that far off from being a full of himself sports icon.

[guitarcec]

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He's probably not too far from being T.O.-ish if he continues to find success from his on-field drama.

You're way off base on that one.  Ever heard T.O's ex-teammates talk about him?  How about Young's?  Notice the difference?

*IF* is important in what I said.  Famous words in here "He may be an asshole, but he's our asshole!"  Like I said, football is not a sport I follow much, but just watching him conduct himself, from my untrained and entirely uninformed eye, he's not that far off from being a full of himself sports icon.

it seems to me that you have missed the many interviews and specials done on VY. to me, he seems like a real stand-up guy, and a great role-model for young kids. he may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but he seems like a community minded guy who doesn't forget where he is from and that life from which he has been delivered. i don't really understand why some posters have questioned his humility.

i'm against showboating in any sport, but i don't see what VY did after the game today as such. i don't think we need MORE passion in sports, as the previous poster suggested, but i have no problem with vince showing emotion after a game-winning drive in his hometown stadium. just my opinion...

[Dobro]

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he seems like a...great role-model for young kids.

Yeah, right.

[JimR]

list who you like, Dobie. it should not take you very long.

[JimR]

Noe, you could not be more wrong if you tried.

[Limey]

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I'm just not used to grown men acting stupid when it comes to sportsmanship. I love baseball and the common courtesy of tipping the cap at the other team for a job well done.

I thought they taught sports in schools partly for the kids to learn sportsmanship.  That part seems to have disappeared somewhat.

[Rammer33]

Enthusiasm after you win a big game / or / after completing a come from behind win is more than ok in my book ? frankly its nice to see - I don?t see how that?s bad sportsmanship ?

It?s the excessive celebration or pre rehearsed touchdown dances after touchdowns or sacks or whatever smaller in game moments that I consider ?punkish? and I have never noticed Vince doing much of that ? hell in the national championship game when he scored the eventual winning touchdown he was the only person on the field not going crazy ? he calmly walked back to the sidelines with the ball ?

Frankly I consider Vince one of the good guys in that respect ?

[drew corleone]

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Enthusiasm after you win a big game / or / after completing a come from behind win is more than ok in my book ? frankly its nice to see - I don?t see how that?s bad sportsmanship ?

It's not. People like to hate.

[Dobro]

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It's not. People like to hate.

Fuck you.  Vince Young is just another punk in today's world of out-of-control professional athletes, particularly the NBA and NFL.  He thinks he's larger than life and will eventually learn otherwise.

[No? in Austin]

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Noe, you could not be more wrong if you tried.

Just my perception of the guy from a very long distance and also a lack of following what's going on in football.  When he did the Heisman pose after a touchdown against Tech (*and I'm not a Raider fan by any means... I'm not a fan of any football program, so no need for anyone to accuse me of UT bashing here either*), I thought it was a bit classless.  He explained it as being egged on by his teammates to do it.

He promised not to do it again until he *won* the trophy.  He didn't win it.  He brooded from what I heard and when the time came after the Rose Bowl, he took the Sears trophy and did it again to show up all the heisman voters and Reggie Bush.

He's very young and he needs to mature, so I'll give him that.  But I won't apologize for what I see as unsportsman-like behavior.  And yes, I could be very wrong, even if I were trying to turn a blind eye to what I'm casually observing.

Time will tell.

[HudsonHawk]

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Enthusiasm after you win a big game / or / after completing a come from behind win is more than ok in my book ? frankly its nice to see - I don?t see how that?s bad sportsmanship ?

It?s the excessive celebration or pre rehearsed touchdown dances after touchdowns or sacks or whatever smaller in game moments that I consider ?punkish?

That's my point in this.  Enthusiasm is one thing, assflapping is another.  And it's not hard to cross from one to the other.  I don't know if VY is one or the other.  He seems enthusiastic to me, but I don't know his motivation.

[HudsonHawk]

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Enthusiasm after you win a big game / or / after completing a come from behind win is more than ok in my book ? frankly its nice to see - I don?t see how that?s bad sportsmanship ?

It?s the excessive celebration or pre rehearsed touchdown dances after touchdowns or sacks or whatever smaller in game moments that I consider ?punkish? and I have never noticed Vince doing much of that ? hell in the national championship game when he scored the eventual winning touchdown he was the only person on the field not going crazy ? he calmly walked back to the sidelines with the ball ?

Frankly I consider Vince one of the good guys in that respect ?

BTW, could you please remove the URL from your signature.  As innocuous as it may seem, we have a strict rule against pimping another site, even if it's your own.

[HurricaneDavid]

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He seems enthusiastic to me, but I don't know his motivation.

Well, Dobro knows.  Or at least he says he does.

[No? in Austin]

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? hell in the national championship game when he scored the eventual winning touchdown he was the only person on the field not going crazy ? he calmly walked back to the sidelines with the ball?

I watched a different Vince Young then, because he went right over to the stands and did a "Yeah, I'm the man" sort of pose and was yelling something at them.

I wish I could turn a blind eye to what I've seen and I wish to heaven I could bring myself to disbelieve what I'm seeing how the young man behaves.  I really do and pehaps the problem is my critical eye interpeting way too much out of his behavior.  But in this instance, time will tell if he is a bit of a showboat and could give a damn what I or anyone else thinks of it.

Chances are that I'm the one who doesn't understand what I'm seeing, much like many people don't understand why a professional soccer player will fall to the ground in pain and then get up and run for the next 30 minutes as if nothing ever happened.  A lack of following a sport closely can effect one's perception.

[MusicMan]

 

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He doesn't show his respect for the competition and after the Rose Bowl, he decided it would be cute to strike a Heisman pose with the Sears Trophy.  

And yet Matt Leinart got a free pass for his "we're still the better team" comments immediately following the game.

Jim is right, Noe.  In a recent interview with Jeff Fisher, he was asked what struck him most about VY.  He said that immediately following the draft, Vince told him it was "so nice to have teammates again."  This is a guy who, when an undrafted FA WR had to do wind sprints in mini camp, immediately joined him to show that the offense was one unit.

He could not be more unlike TO if he tried.

Just do a reasonableness check here - if you're agreeing with Dobro, you're probably way off the mark.

[MusicMan]

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? hell in the national championship game when he scored the eventual winning touchdown he was the only person on the field not going crazy ? he calmly walked back to the sidelines with the ball?

I watched a different Vince Young then, because he went right over to the stands and did a "Yeah, I'm the man" sort of pose and was yelling something at them.

You're confusing what followed the TD - and anyone can show you the clip, the man was as cool as ice - and following the game, where he wass on the bench shouting TO THE UT FANS.

[Trey]

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He doesn't show his respect for the competition and after the Rose Bowl, he decided it would be cute to strike a Heisman pose with the Sears Trophy.  

And yet Matt Leinart got a free pass for his "we're still the better team" comments immediately following the game.

Jim is right, Noe.  In a recent interview with Jeff Fisher, he was asked what struck him most about VY.  He said that immediately following the draft, Vince told him it was "so nice to have teammates again."  This is a guy who, when an undrafted FA WR had to do wind sprints in mini camp, immediately joined him to show that the offense was one unit.

He could not be more unlike TO if he tried.

Just do a reasonableness check here - if you're agreeing with Dobro, you're probably way off the mark.

I couldn't give a shit one way or the other about VY, but "reasonableness check here", your standard for class is a guy who dated Paris Hilton, "you're probably way off the mark."

[MusicMan]

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I couldn't give a shit one way or the other about VY, but "reasonableness check here", your standard for class is a guy who dated Paris Hilton, "you're probably way off the mark."

I didn't say he was a "standard for class".  I said he got a free pass for being a classless dick following the game.

[HudsonHawk]

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And yet Matt Leinart got a free pass for his "we're still the better team" comments immediately following the game.

Not to speak for Noe, but where did he say that Lienart gets a free pass?

[Trey]

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I couldn't give a shit one way or the other about VY, but "reasonableness check here", your standard for class is a guy who dated Paris Hilton, "you're probably way off the mark."

I didn't say he was a "standard for class".  I said he got a free pass for being a classless dick following the game.

Who cares?  What does that have to do with Vince Young?  Vince Young has class or he doesn't.  It has nothing to do with Matt Leinart.  It has nothing to do with TO.  It has nothing to do with anything other than Vince Young and how well he does or doesn't carry himself.

An argument for Matt Leinart carrying himself well is not "well, VY did the Heisman pose, at least ML didn't do that."  What ML said was a jackass thing to say.  But whether he got a "free pass for it" has nothing to do with Vince Young.

[MusicMan]

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And yet Matt Leinart got a free pass for his "we're still the better team" comments immediately following the game.

Not to speak for Noe, but where did he say that Lienart gets a free pass?

He didn't.  I am.

[HudsonHawk]

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He didn't.  I am.

Well then why are you giving him a free pass and then wailing that he gets a free pass?

[Rammer33]

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Enthusiasm after you win a big game / or / after completing a come from behind win is more than ok in my book ? frankly its nice to see - I don?t see how that?s bad sportsmanship ?

It?s the excessive celebration or pre rehearsed touchdown dances after touchdowns or sacks or whatever smaller in game moments that I consider ?punkish? and I have never noticed Vince doing much of that ? hell in the national championship game when he scored the eventual winning touchdown he was the only person on the field not going crazy ? he calmly walked back to the sidelines with the ball ?

Frankly I consider Vince one of the good guys in that respect ?

BTW, could you please remove the URL from your signature.  As innocuous as it may seem, we have a strict rule against pimping another site, even if it's your own.

cool no biggie ... didn't realize, thanks for the heads up ...

[Arky Vaughan]

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That's my point in this.  Enthusiasm is one thing, assflapping is another.  And it's not hard to cross from one to the other.

It's the difference between being happy you did well vs. wanting to rub it in on the other side. Then there's the Jeff Bagwell school of going about everything looking as if you were about to have a root canal.

[MusicMan]

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He didn't.  I am.

Well then why are you giving him a free pass and then wailing that he gets a free pass?

I thought this was much more clear than it apparently is:

Noe did not say Leinart got a free pass.  I am saying that he got a free pass from media and fans.  I am saying that it was a double standard, and that double standard holds true if you think that a celebration pose with the trophy is "unsportsmanlike", but saying that you're still a better team than the one that just beat you is not.

[HudsonHawk]

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It's the difference between being happy you did well vs. wanting to rub it in on the other side. Then there's the Jeff Bagwell school of going about everything looking as if you were about to have a root canal.

I think when you do things that call attention to yourself is when you cross that line.  If VY struck a Heisman pose, that's being a punk.  If he jumped around and celebrated with his teammates, that's not.

[HudsonHawk]

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I thought this was much more clear than it apparently is:

I'm not sure why you thought it would be clear.  You brought up Matt Leinart in a post to Noe about Vince Young being a punk, the first time anyone brought up Leinart into the discussion.  Since Leinart is totally irrelevant to anything previously discussed in this thread, it's clear as mud.

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I am saying that it was a double standard, and that double standard holds true if you think that a celebration pose with the trophy is "unsportsmanlike", but saying that you're still a better team than the one that just beat you is not.

OK.  This has nothing to do with Vince Young or the topic at hand, but OK, I guess.

[Arky Vaughan]

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I think when you do things that call attention to yourself is when you cross that line.  If VY struck a Heisman pose, that's being a punk.  If he jumped around and celebrated with his teammates, that's not.

Agreed. I've always liked the line that the classiest way to acquit yourself is, when you succeed, to act calmly, as if you've done it a thousand times before.

[Rammer33]

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? hell in the national championship game when he scored the eventual winning touchdown he was the only person on the field not going crazy ? he calmly walked back to the sidelines with the ball?

I watched a different Vince Young then, because he went right over to the stands and did a "Yeah, I'm the man" sort of pose and was yelling something at them.

I think we are thinking of 2 different moments - when he went over to the stands that was after the game was over and he was celebrating winning the national championship ... I can't fault him for that ... after he scored the winning TD while the game was still going on he was completely calm and in fact telling team mates to calm down as there was still game to be played ...

I just haven't seen the side of Vince your describing ? to me he always seems courteous and respectful in interviews and the celebration to me (for the most part) has been limited to post game celebrating after winning big games (which he has done quite a few times) ?  but you may have seen more things than I have so I may be missing something ?

[No? in Austin]

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It's the difference between being happy you did well vs. wanting to rub it in on the other side. Then there's the Jeff Bagwell school of going about everything looking as if you were about to have a root canal.

I think when you do things that call attention to yourself is when you cross that line.  If VY struck a Heisman pose, that's being a punk.  If he jumped around and celebrated with his teammates, that's not.

Thanks, I can't explain where the line difference was between being happy to coming darn near the unsportsmanlike behavior.  I thought the shot across Bush and the Heisman crowd was a bit bush league (pun intended).  I felt bad for VY giving in to the temptation of doing such a classless thing.  I can't find the picture of the Heisman pose with the Sears trophy, and frankly it isn't that important.

I think overall that being young and full of life tends to make one think about being teflon to all things.  VY has the world by the tail and I just hope at the end he is well grounded and not anything else.  When I mentioned TO, I'm sure I hit some nerves.  I apologize for that, however I thought I was clear that my perception is *IF* he continues unchecked, he will *PROBABLY* be just another TO in the NFL.

A certain amount of brash confidence is needed to succeed at this level I'm sure and I am the last person on this board to say what behavior should or should not be tolerated by NFL fans.  I am on the outside looking in and VY is fitting in to the world of the NFL right now.  Where that takes him in terms of being grounded is anyone's guess at this point.  I fear for the dark side taking over because I, with my untrained eye see some signs of it.

We bash Andy Pettitte for his petulent, me-first, you owe me, I'll never grow up display, so I don't feel remorse saying that the emporer may be running around, at the very least, in boxers at this point.

[HudsonHawk]

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Agreed. I've always liked the line that the classiest way to acquit yourself is, when you succeed, to act calmly, as if you've done it a thousand times before.

I don't think you have to do that even.  Just be happy you won.  Don't make a spectacle of yourself.  Now, hitting a home run or scoring a touchdown or making a 3-point shot rarely means you won, so when you jump around like an idiot after something like that, you're only doing it to call attention to yourself, so that's probably crossing the line.  I dont' expect athletes to be emotionless, I just expect them to be focused on the goal of winning, not making SportsCenter highlights.

[BizidyDizidy]

 Here you go Noe

[HudsonHawk]

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Here you go Noe

OK, that's being a punk.

[No? in Austin]

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Here you go Noe

OK, that's being a punk.

Remember, he did this *after* he vowed never to do such a classless thing right after the Tech game.  He freaking apologized for doing it after the Tech game when called out on it by the press.  Even made a joke about it, saying he won't strike that pose again unless he *wins the Heisman* because it was just a little bit of egging on by teammates after a seriously good game and dramatic win over Tech (winning touchdown run?).

And then, lo and behold he did it again after the Rose Bowl.  I am just a bit concerned about the grounding of the young man.  Men like Jeff Fisher will be good for him though.  I respect Fisher and how he dealt with his lineman's behavior when he stepped in the face of a Dallas Cowboy center (and I am not a Cowboy fan by any stretch of the imagination).

[Dobro]

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Here you go Noe

Punk.  He needs a heater up around the chin.

[Rammer33]

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Here you go Noe

OK, that's being a punk.

Remember, he did this *after* he vowed never to do such a classless thing right after the Tech game.  He freaking apologized for doing it after the Tech game when called out on it by the press.  Even made a joke about it, saying he won't strike that pose again unless he *wins the Heisman* because it was just a little bit of egging on by teammates after a seriously good game and dramatic win over Tech (winning touchdown run?).

And then, lo and behold he did it again after the Rose Bowl.  I am just a bit concerned about the grounding of the young man.  Men like Jeff Fisher will be good for him though.  I respect Fisher and how he dealt with his lineman's behavior when he stepped in the face of a Dallas Cowboy center (and I am not a Cowboy fan by any stretch of the imagination).

to me that seemed tongue 'n cheek and just didn't rub me the wrong way (and I am not really a texas fan) ...  we all see things differently I suppose ? but I do think its a little broad sweeping to question his character based on this incident ... I mean to me it seemed ?all in good fun? especially considering he had just won the national championship ?

[No? in Austin]

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Here you go Noe

OK, that's being a punk.

Remember, he did this *after* he vowed never to do such a classless thing right after the Tech game.  He freaking apologized for doing it after the Tech game when called out on it by the press.  Even made a joke about it, saying he won't strike that pose again unless he *wins the Heisman* because it was just a little bit of egging on by teammates after a seriously good game and dramatic win over Tech (winning touchdown run?).

And then, lo and behold he did it again after the Rose Bowl.  I am just a bit concerned about the grounding of the young man.  Men like Jeff Fisher will be good for him though.  I respect Fisher and how he dealt with his lineman's behavior when he stepped in the face of a Dallas Cowboy center (and I am not a Cowboy fan by any stretch of the imagination).

to me that seemed tongue 'n cheek and just didn't rub me the wrong way (and I am not really a texas fan) ...  we all see things differently I suppose ? but I do think its a little broad sweeping to question his character based on this incident ... I mean to me it seemed ?all in good fun? especially considering he had just won the national championship ?

Okay, I'll try this again: He did this *AFTER* he had already been chided for doing in a game versus Tech!  It is not an isolated incident.  I think it was classless because he should've learned from a previous incident that it is just not something you want to do.

And he said himself he was wrong.  Yet he did it *AGAIN*!

[MusicMan]

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Here you go Noe

Punk.  He needs a heater up around the chin.

Well, I assume a big man like you is just the kind of guy to deliver it.

[HudsonHawk]

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to me that seemed tongue 'n cheek and just didn't rub me the wrong way (and I am not really a texas fan) ...  we all see things differently I suppose ? but I do think its a little broad sweeping to question his character based on this incident ... I mean to me it seemed ?all in good fun? especially considering he had just won the national championship ?

Sorry, gotta disagree with you there.  The pose was nothing more than a "look at me" gesture and an unnecessary swipe at Reggie Bush, one of his opponents in the game he was celebrating.  Even if it was "tongue in cheek", that's definitely being a punk.  Actually, *specifically* if it was tongue in cheek is it being a punk.  I agree that one incident doesn't mean he's a bad person.  It means he was being a punk when he did that.  But if Noe's contentions are true, that this is a pattern and not an isolated incident, then I think it *does* speak about his character.  

Saying all the right things in interviews is nice.  But how you behave yourself on the field, in victory as well as defeat, says much more about you as a person.  This is the problem I have with guys like Albert Pujols.  He says the right things in interviews, but he's a total jackass on the field.  It just shows his insincerity.

[No? in Austin]

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Here you go Noe

Punk.  He needs a heater up around the chin.

Well, I assume a big man like you is just the kind of guy to deliver it.

To be fair MM, if we can indict Albert Pujols for his unsportsman-like behavior when all indications are that Pujols is a kind, gentle man who takes care of his family and is a church going, God fearing man who is great around his teammates and says all the right things about the opposition at the press conference after a game, then VY deserves some sort of "hmmmm... why is he doing that" look his way.

Albert is immature.  I think VY may be the same.  *MAY* is the operative word here.

[No? in Austin]

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to me that seemed tongue 'n cheek and just didn't rub me the wrong way (and I am not really a texas fan) ...  we all see things differently I suppose ? but I do think its a little broad sweeping to question his character based on this incident ... I mean to me it seemed ?all in good fun? especially considering he had just won the national championship ?

Sorry, gotta disagree with you there.  The pose was nothing more than a "look at me" gesture and an unnecessary swipe at Reggie Bush, one of his opponents in the game he was celebrating.  Even if it was "tongue in cheek", that's definitely being a punk.  Actually, *specifically* if it was tongue in cheek is it being a punk.  I agree that one incident doesn't mean he's a bad person.  It means he was being a punk when he did that.  But if Noe's contentions are true, that this is a pattern and not an isolated incident, then I think it *does* speak about his character.  

Saying all the right things in interviews is nice.  But how you behave yourself on the field, in victory as well as defeat, says much more about you as a person.  This is the problem I have with guys like Albert Pujols.  He says the right things in interviews, but he's a total jackass on the field.  It just shows his insincerity.

Get out of my head!

[MusicMan]

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Here you go Noe

Punk.  He needs a heater up around the chin.

Well, I assume a big man like you is just the kind of guy to deliver it.

To be fair MM, if we can indict Albert Pujols for his unsportsman-like behavior when all indications are that Pujols is a kind, gentle man who takes care of his family and is a church going, God fearing man who is great around his teammates and says all the right things about the opposition at the press conference after a game, then VY deserves some sort of "hmmmm... why is he doing that" look his way.

Albert is immature.  I think VY may be the same.  *MAY* is the operative word here.

I can guarantee that none of us knows either one well enough to say.  I can also guarantee that yours is a more thought out position than "he needs a heater up around the chin."

[Trey]

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Here you go Noe

Punk.  He needs a heater up around the chin.

Well, I assume a big man like you is just the kind of guy to deliver it.

To be fair MM, if we can indict Albert Pujols for his unsportsman-like behavior when all indications are that Pujols is a kind, gentle man who takes care of his family and is a church going, God fearing man who is great around his teammates and says all the right things about the opposition at the press conference after a game, then VY deserves some sort of "hmmmm... why is he doing that" look his way.

Albert is immature.  I think VY may be the same.  *MAY* is the operative word here.

I can guarantee that none of us knows either one well enough to say.  I can also guarantee that yours is a more thought out position than "he needs a heater up around the chin."

But how will we ever get professional athletes to do exactly as we wish unless we anonymously threaten them with physical violence that we do not have the means to implement?

My god, won't someone think of the children!

[Rammer33]

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Here you go Noe

OK, that's being a punk.

Remember, he did this *after* he vowed never to do such a classless thing right after the Tech game.  He freaking apologized for doing it after the Tech game when called out on it by the press.  Even made a joke about it, saying he won't strike that pose again unless he *wins the Heisman* because it was just a little bit of egging on by teammates after a seriously good game and dramatic win over Tech (winning touchdown run?).

And then, lo and behold he did it again after the Rose Bowl.  I am just a bit concerned about the grounding of the young man.  Men like Jeff Fisher will be good for him though.  I respect Fisher and how he dealt with his lineman's behavior when he stepped in the face of a Dallas Cowboy center (and I am not a Cowboy fan by any stretch of the imagination).

to me that seemed tongue 'n cheek and just didn't rub me the wrong way (and I am not really a texas fan) ...  we all see things differently I suppose ? but I do think its a little broad sweeping to question his character based on this incident ... I mean to me it seemed ?all in good fun? especially considering he had just won the national championship ?

Okay, I'll try this again: He did this *AFTER* he had already been chided for doing in a game versus Tech!  It is not an isolated incident.  I think it was classless because he should've learned from a previous incident that it is just not something you want to do.

And he said himself he was wrong.  Yet he did it *AGAIN*!

I can see why someone would see punk in this but I think your making too much of it - particularly to any broad sweeping judgments on his character ... what do they say about looking for the bad in folks ... anyway to me he shows more good than not ... but that is just one mans opinion, and I have certainly been wrong before ...

[BizidyDizidy]

I think a better point is why is there so much consternation? There are certainly plenty more assholes in the world, even if he is one I'm not gonna get too riled up about it.

The biggest practical impact this whole situation is going to have in the short-term is making local radio unlistenable; luckily, it was unlistenable to start with. I hope Vince has a great career (except againt the Texans) and that Mario ends up playing up to his draft status (which I am very hopeful he will). I don't know why a lot more than that has to be said about it.

[HudsonHawk]

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The biggest practical impact this whole situation is going to have in the short-term is making local radio unlistenable; luckily, it was unlistenable to start with. I hope Vince has a great career (except againt the Texans) and that Mario ends up playing up to his draft status (which I am very hopeful he will). I don't know why a lot more than that has to be said about it.

It's not consternation, just discussion. If you don't want to discuss it, by all means don't.

[BizidyDizidy]

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It's not consternation, just discussion. If you don't want to discuss it, by all means don't.

Fair enough. Wish there was some news about the #2 starter we are waiting on.

[Golden Sombrero]

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The biggest practical impact this whole situation is going to have in the short-term is making local radio unlistenable; luckily, it was unlistenable to start with...

Word.  And I also agree that we need to get some news on the Stros front pronto.

[No? in Austin]

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I can see why someone would see punk in this but I think your making too much of it - particularly to any broad sweeping judgments on his character

Fair enough, but I've tried to be very fair in what I'm saying.  It's not coming across apparently.  I said I hope it's all about being young, a bit immature and a bit brash and that I am totally wrong.  I think time will tell about his character, not me nor you.  I see flashes of what may concern some, others maybe not.  I didn't say he *IS* like TO, I said he *MAY* become like TO, *IF* he doesn't mature just a tad.  Again, from my own far away and not too informed position on the couch.  I think having it ascribed that I am indicting the young man with a wide brush is deflection back to me and not to what the point is: Does VY have some indication of being just a tad... ahum... Pujol-ish?  I think signs are there that it should be a concern.

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... what do they say about looking for the bad in folks ...

I didn't strike the Heisman pose, he did.  If I am to be consistent, then I think it is unfair to bash Andy Pettitte in here and also Albert Pujols because we are *all* trying to find the bad in them even if their own words and behavior give rise to our own concerns about them.

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anyway to me he shows more good than not ... but that is just one mans opinion, and I have certainly been wrong before ...

I am not a fan of VY nor football, so I have no reason to either condemn nor condone in that sense.  I merely point out that behavior sometimes points to a concern.  Do with that what you will.  Time, once again, will be the telling factor when all is said and done.

And if I am wrong in what I say, it will not be the first nor the last time.  I am, though, trying to be consistent.

[Rammer33]

I under stand your being consistent ... and to that end I think too much has on occasion been made of pujols (to a lesser degree because I think different etiquettes apply in baseball) ... generally I tend to think hyper analyzing little things like this lead to over criticism (or in turn over-praise) when judging a persons character - but that?s just me and I could be nieve ... after all I am but a clark ...

you certainly could be right but I happen to think Vince is a long way from heading down the TO path ... reasonable minds can differ ...

[Rammer33]

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I didn't strike the Heisman pose, he did.  If I am to be consistent, then I think it is unfair to bash Andy Pettitte in here and also Albert Pujols because we are *all* trying to find the bad in them even if their own words and behavior give rise to our own concerns about them.

I am not intentionally putting anything on you ?  where we differ is likely the degree we impugn things like this to some ones character ? and as I said I may be a little nieve and not giving things like this enough weight in my own perceptions and that is something I certainly could be guilty of ?

[drew corleone]

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I can see why someone would see punk in this but I think your making too much of it - particularly to any broad sweeping judgments on his character

Fair enough, but I've tried to be very fair in what I'm saying.  It's not coming across apparently.  I said I hope it's all about being young, a bit immature and a bit brash and that I am totally wrong.  I think time will tell about his character, not me nor you.  I see flashes of what may concern some, others maybe not.  I didn't say he *IS* like TO, I said he *MAY* become like TO, *IF* he doesn't mature just a tad.  Again, from my own far away and not too informed position on the couch.  I think having it ascribed that I am indicting the young man with a wide brush is deflection back to me and not to what the point is: Does VY have some indication of being just a tad... ahum... Pujol-ish?  I think signs are there that it should be a concern.

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... what do they say about looking for the bad in folks ...

I didn't strike the Heisman pose, he did.  If I am to be consistent, then I think it is unfair to bash Andy Pettitte in here and also Albert Pujols because we are *all* trying to find the bad in them even if their own words and behavior give rise to our own concerns about them.

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anyway to me he shows more good than not ... but that is just one mans opinion, and I have certainly been wrong before ...

I am not a fan of VY nor football, so I have no reason to either condemn nor condone in that sense.  I merely point out that behavior sometimes points to a concern.  Do with that what you will.  Time, once again, will be the telling factor when all is said and done.

And if I am wrong in what I say, it will not be the first nor the last time.  I am, though, trying to be consistent.

Hmmm... the only thing that gets me about all of this is that the original discussion has devolved from a "How good is he?" debate to a "Is he or is he not a 'punk'?" debate, and the only real evidence for the former is that he made a Heisman pose when he was playing up to the fans to celebrate the biggest win in more than three decades of school history.

Last I checked VY has never beaten his girlfriend, failed a drug test, been arrested for DWI, called out his teammates in the media, demanded a contract raise/extension, refused to adhere to a coach's decision, excessively shown up or called out a specific opponent (other than making the occasional would-be tackler look silly), or any of a host of other reasons that people cite when criticizing spoiled, me-first athletes.

By all accounts he's proven to be a team-oriented leader, respected by his teammates and coaches, and respected within his community.

Football is a violent game. It's an emotional game. Its players are apt to exhibit acts of celebration that aren't as acceptable in a sport like baseball. Athletes do still cross the line sometimes, but the examples cited here are by and large innocuous when compared to most of the more egregious on- and off-field examples of bad sportsmanship.

But hey, I'm a VY fan, so I'm sure I'm just biased.

[No? in Austin]

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I under stand your being consistent ... and to that end I think too much has on occasion been made of pujols (to a lesser degree because I think different etiquettes apply in baseball)

I've made all sorts of concessions towards the differences in the NFL and MLB.  I have also gone to great pains to let everyone know I do not follow the NFl much and just barely follow college football.  I have no idea what stands for ettiquette and what does not in that sense.  But I can tell you that much of what has been said about Pujols is warranted.

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... generally I tend to think hyper analyzing little things like this lead to over criticism (or intern over-praise) when judging a persons character

We would be without any conversation about Pettitte and Pujols if things like this would be ignored.  I offered my opinion only and I never said he *WAS* a person of dubious character.  I said he *MAY* become one given the things I've seen with my untrained eye.

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- but that?s just me and I could be nieve ... after all I am but a clark ...

you certainly could be right but I happen to think Vince is a long way from heading down the TO path ... reasonable minds can differ ...

Where did I say he was a minor step into a full blown TO?

[No? in Austin]

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Last I checked VY has never beaten his girlfriend, failed a drug test, been arrested for DWI, called out his teammates in the media, demanded a contract raise/extension, refused to adhere to a coach's decision, excessively shown up or called out a specific opponent (other than making the occasional would-be tackler look silly), or any of a host of other reasons that people cite when criticizing spoiled, me-first athletes.

Subsitute "Albert Pujols" or "Andy Pettitte" in the above statement and then tell me if the questions about them is warranted in here.  Or at least allowed to be discussed.  Pujols does one thing well when he wants to annoy most people: He'll stand and admire his homerun and then toss the bat aside.

It is unsportsmanlike.  Does he beat his wife?  Heck no, he's a great guy!  I mean that, all indications are that he is a wonderful human being.  He just doesn't understand how to conduct himself on the field yet, say like... oh... Scott Rolen?

I see just a tad of the same from VY.  Excuse me if I say it out loud.

[Rammer33]

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I under stand your being consistent ... and to that end I think too much has on occasion been made of pujols (to a lesser degree because I think different etiquettes apply in baseball)

I've made all sorts of concessions towards the differences in the NFL and MLB.  I have also gone to great pains to let everyone know I do not follow the NFl much and just barely follow college football.  I have no idea what stands for ettiquette and what does not in that sense.  But I can tell you that much of what has been said about Pujols is warranted.

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... generally I tend to think hyper analyzing little things like this lead to over criticism (or intern over-praise) when judging a persons character

We would be without any conversation about Pettitte and Pujols if things like this would be ignored.  I offered my opinion only and I never said he *WAS* a person of dubious character.  I said he *MAY* become one given the things I've seen with my untrained eye.

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- but that?s just me and I could be nieve ... after all I am but a clark ...

you certainly could be right but I happen to think Vince is a long way from heading down the TO path ... reasonable minds can differ ...

Where did I say he was a minor step into a full blown TO?

perhaps I took your TO comparison to be more than it was ... I felt the insinuation of your posts where that he was 1) heading down a TO path 2) was a punk and hopefully someone like Jeff Fisher can straighten him out before it was too late ...  and that all just struck me as a little ridiculous ... it seems I might have read more into your posts than was there  - if so then its my bad (I don?t feel like re reading the whole thread to find out if this is true or not)

and either way you certainly have made your opinions known with this last post and as I said reasonable minds can differ ...

[No? in Austin]

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perhaps I took your TO comparison to be more than it was ...

TO was not TO when he first started off either.  Will VY give into antics on the field?  Time, not you nor I will tell.  Is that hard to accept?  No?  Because there is nothing in VY *right now* to suggest antics are in the future?  I don't know, I am seeing some things that may or may not matter in such a case.

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I felt the insinuation of your posts where that he was 1) heading down a TO path 2) was a punk and hopefully someone like Jeff Fisher can straighten him out before it was too late

He would be no better than TO in such a case if he feels showing up his opponent is par for the course.  Many of the NLF players feel it as an okay thing to do.  That's fine, I don't know what level of acceptance is there.  But when an avowed NFL follower like HH says he thinks VY was punkish in his Heisman pose, maybe some concern should be there?  Take me out of the equation because you've made it about me.  If we make it about me or anybody else in the TZ for that matter (other than those who may rant for the sake of ranting, then apply the "Boy who cried wolf" theory appropriately), then we fail to speak of Pujols or Pettitte again.  Or Hampton, or Kile, or... you get the point?

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...  and that all just struck me as a little ridiculous ...

I found it on par with Albert Pujols discussion we've had here in the past.  Ridiculous?  Perhaps.  Consistent?  Yes, yes it is.

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it seems I might have read more into your posts than was there  - if so then its my bad (I don?t feel like re reading the whole thread to find out if this is true or not)

My only concern with your own replies was that you tried to make it about me more than the subject at hand.  Fair enough, fans are generally stupid and for once I am very comfortable in stating once again that I am a member of the great unwashed when it comes to the NFL.  Perhaps I should've posed what I did as a question and not as a statement in order to garner the feedback necessary on VY and not become the item for discussion?

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and either way you certainly have made your opinions known with this last post and as I said reasonable minds can differ ...

Cool.

[drew corleone]

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Last I checked VY has never beaten his girlfriend, failed a drug test, been arrested for DWI, called out his teammates in the media, demanded a contract raise/extension, refused to adhere to a coach's decision, excessively shown up or called out a specific opponent (other than making the occasional would-be tackler look silly), or any of a host of other reasons that people cite when criticizing spoiled, me-first athletes.

Subsitute "Albert Pujols" or "Andy Pettitte" in the above statement and then tell me if the questions about them is warranted in here.  Or at least allowed to be discussed.  Pujols does one thing well when he wants to annoy most people: He'll stand and admire his homerun and then toss the bat aside.

It is unsportsmanlike.  Does he beat his wife?  Heck no, he's a great guy!  I mean that, all indications are that he is a wonderful human being.  He just doesn't understand how to conduct himself on the field yet, say like... oh... Scott Rolen?

I see just a tad of the same from VY.  Excuse me if I say it out loud.

The AP comparison is apples to oranges, and I personally don't have as much of a problem with Pujols as I guess most of the board does.

I'm not necessarily saying VY is the greatest role model in sports, but based on the examples cited I think the criticism of him in this thread is a bit hyperbolic.

[No? in Austin]

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The AP comparison is apples to oranges, and I personally don't have as much of a problem with Pujols as I guess most of the board does.

Why is it different in your mind?

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I'm not necessarily saying VY is the greatest role model in sports, but based on the examples cited I think the criticism of him in this thread is a bit hyperbolic.

Actually, you introduced the hyperbole with "wife beating".  In the discussions about Pujols or Pettitte, many of us keep away from the nasty rumors (in Andy's case) about adultery and such.  It is hyperbole in that case.  We do, however, consider that talking about levels of sportsmanship and being mature about things applies to those two.  Does it to VY?  I think there are indications he is just a tad immature and will learn as he goes along.  Right now, youthful indescretion is what everyone will ascribe.  Five to six years from now, the same will become a problem for many who will consider this to be unwarranted and beneath a fine young man.

That whole statement above is lacking hyperbole.  It is fair in my estimation because I don't see VY and some of the things he's done as a mature, sportsman-like player... yet.  My whole point is that I wish he turns out to be a little more level headed and not pampered by the success.

Time will tell.

Is that fair?

[ASTROCREEP]

After all this conversation, it comes down to this for me.

As a Texans fan would I rather have Vince Young or David Carr?


I personally wanted Bush, hoping he would help Carr get the ball to Johnson/Moulds.

But if I had to choose between Young or Carr. YOUNG no question.Even if he is a little bit of a punk.

[HudsonHawk]

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Last I checked VY has never...excessively shown up or called out a specific opponent (other than making the occasional would-be tackler look silly

That's part of the debate here.  Striking the Heisman pose at the Rose Bowl last year certainly *was* excessively showing up and calling out a specific opponent.  That's punkish.  Perhaps you're one of those who believes there's not enough of that in pro sports today.  If so, that's your opinion.  But to me, he acted like a punk.  There is no question of that.

[HudsonHawk]

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But if I had to choose between Young or Carr. YOUNG no question.Even if he is a little bit of a punk.

I don't agree.  Personally I wanted them to take Bush, but I'm glad they didn't take Young.  I don't think he'll be a successful QB in the NFL.

[ASTROCREEP]

Young is not or ever will be a Texan. So no use debating his leval of PUNKNESS.

SO, say the Texans loose out the rest of the year. And all the other bad teams win a couple of games.

Who do you choose:

Peterson
Troy Smith
Brady Quinn
__________ other

[HudsonHawk]

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Young is not or ever will be a Texan. So no use debating his leval of PUNKNESS.

Alyssa Milano is not now nor will she ever be my wife, that doesn't mean we can't discuss her.

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SO, say the Texans loose out the rest of the year. And all the other bad teams win a couple of games.

Who do you choose:

Peterson
Troy Smith
Brady Quinn
__________ other

Based on talent and need alone, I'd choose Peterson.  The Texans are in desperate need of a running back.  They're in desperate need of a lot of things, but RB is glaring.  Getting a new QB will not improve things until 1) they get a better offensive line, and 2) get a running game.

[BizidyDizidy]

No way they will take a RB, not with the zone blocking system. And nor should they, in my opinion. Get the lineman to make the system work and see where they are at.

[HudsonHawk]

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No way they will take a RB, not with the zone blocking system. And nor should they, in my opinion. Get the lineman to make the system work and see where they are at.

With whom at RB?  Walli Lundy?  What good does a zone blocking scheme do you if you don't have a running back who can hit the holes?

[ASTROCREEP]

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No way they will take a RB, not with the zone blocking system. And nor should they, in my opinion. Get the lineman to make the system work and see where they are at.

With whom at RB?  Walli Lundy?  What good does a zone blocking scheme do you if you don't have a running back who can hit the holes?

And why would they stick with a system that doesn't work with lineman they have?

[BizidyDizidy]

No system works with the lineman they have - they are horrible. If you are essentially starting from the ground up, why not go with a system that has been extremely effective for Kubiak in the past?

[HudsonHawk]

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No system works with the lineman they have - they are horrible. If you are essentially starting from the ground up, why not go with a system that has been extremely effective for Kubiak in the past?

Fine.  But why not try to get the personnel to make a system like that work instead of forcing a system onto personnel who can't execute it?

[BizidyDizidy]

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No way they will take a RB, not with the zone blocking system. And nor should they, in my opinion. Get the lineman to make the system work and see where they are at.

With whom at RB?  Walli Lundy?  What good does a zone blocking scheme do you if you don't have a running back who can hit the holes?

Maybe Lundy, maybe Dayne (who has been effective of late), maybe Davis (if he recovers from his injury, maybe someone they draft in the 5th or 6th next year.

There are two issues, as pravata often likes to point out. What will they do and what do we think they should do. Historically, the Denver philosophy (which Kubiak was a big part of) is that you find runningbacks in the later rounds who fit into the zone-blocking philosophy and make them stars (with the most notable recent exception being Clinton Portis who was drafted in the mid 2nd round). I don't see them making a big departure from that.

On the what do I think they should do front, for what little it's worth, there are too many holes on this team (in particular, OL, DL, LB, Secondary) to take a RB.

[Jacksonian]

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No way they will take a RB, not with the zone blocking system. And nor should they, in my opinion. Get the lineman to make the system work and see where they are at.

With whom at RB?  Walli Lundy?  What good does a zone blocking scheme do you if you don't have a running back who can hit the holes?

And why would they stick with a system that doesn't work with lineman they have?

There's more than just the draft to build a team.  One thing has become clear to me this year.  Any team can go from carppy to playoff team in one season.  If the 2005 devastated vagabond doormat Saints can turnover 1/3 of their roster and become the 2006 Superbowl contending Saints other teams should be able to something similar.  Is there any reason the Texans with good scouting of players can add FA's, make trades, and draft well to become playoff contending in 2007?

[BizidyDizidy]

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No system works with the lineman they have - they are horrible. If you are essentially starting from the ground up, why not go with a system that has been extremely effective for Kubiak in the past?

Fine.  But why not try to get the personnel to make a system like that work instead of forcing a system onto personnel who can't execute it?

I think they are trying - Eric Winston is a very athletic lineman, Pitts fits, and they brought in Flanagan to play C who I believe had some zone blocking experience. I'd guess the philosophy is start installing the system and upgrade as possible. The one semi-surprising pick along those lines was Charles Spencer, the other 3rd round lineman who got injured early. He is road-grader size, but supposedly surprising athletic.

[MusicMan]

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Young is not or ever will be a Texan. So no use debating his leval of PUNKNESS.

Alyssa Milano is not now nor will she ever be my wife, that doesn't mean we can't discuss her.
 

Bringing this back to bb... shouldn't we make an all-out push to trade for Brad Penny for precisely this reason?

[HudsonHawk]

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On the what do I think they should do front, for what little it's worth, there are too many holes on this team (in particular, OL, DL, LB, Secondary) to take a RB.

I disagree.  RB is the single biggest hole, by far, IMO.

[HudsonHawk]

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Bringing this back to bb... shouldn't we make an all-out push to trade for Brad Penny for precisely this reason?

Absolutely.  Anything that will help my efforts with Ms. Milano is an absolute necessity.

[BizidyDizidy]

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On the what do I think they should do front, for what little it's worth, there are too many holes on this team (in particular, OL, DL, LB, Secondary) to take a RB.

I disagree.  RB is the single biggest hole, by far, IMO.

I agree that the running game is a huge problem - the disagreement is whether the best way to fix that is a new RB. If I had to choose one area to improve, it would be the O-Line. There you have the potential to substantially upgrade the running and passing attack.

The other major wildcard is Davis's status for next year.

[Golden Sombrero]

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No way they will take a RB, not with the zone blocking system. And nor should they, in my opinion. Get the lineman to make the system work and see where they are at.

I think Peterson will be gone by the time we pick.  Although maybe the teams ahead of us need QBs.  

Who's ahead (ie worse) than the Texans?  There's Oakland, which needs a QB.  There's Detroit, which needs a QB.  There's Tampa, which doesn't need a QB.  Then there's Cleveland, Arizona, and Washington, which as of today have the same record.  I'm not sure Peterson survives all those takers to drop to us, unless there's a lot of trading going on.

[drew corleone]

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The AP comparison is apples to oranges, and I personally don't have as much of a problem with Pujols as I guess most of the board does.

Why is it different in your mind?

I assume you're talking about AP making a spectacle out of coming "home," only to bolt theree years later for more money, while making a number of disparaging comments about this former employer, that suggests (among other things) excessive frugality, incompetence, and a lack of respect/loyalty. What has VY done that's remotely comparable?

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I'm not necessarily saying VY is the greatest role model in sports, but based on the examples cited I think the criticism of him in this thread is a bit hyperbolic.

Actually, you introduced the hyperbole with "wife beating".  In the discussions about Pujols or Pettitte, many of us keep away from the nasty rumors (in Andy's case) about adultery and such.  It is hyperbole in that case.  We do, however, consider that talking about levels of sportsmanship and being mature about things applies to those two.  Does it to VY?  I think there are indications he is just a tad immature and will learn as he goes along.  Right now, youthful indescretion is what everyone will ascribe.  Five to six years from now, the same will become a problem for many who will consider this to be unwarranted and beneath a fine young man.

That whole statement above is lacking hyperbole.  It is fair in my estimation because I don't see VY and some of the things he's done as a mature, sportsman-like player... yet.  My whole point is that I wish he turns out to be a little more level headed and not pampered by the success.

Time will tell.

Is that fair?

Not sure about rumors of adultery. I've never heard that, and again, I'm not making comparisons between AP and VY, as I don't believe any exist at this point, appropos to the discussion at hand.

And it seems like you're already chalking him up to be a TO-type of guy in his fifth or sixth year, which is making a major assumption. Or maybe I'm not being fair?

And HH... I disagree with you that striking the Heisman was "excessive." He was pandering to 50K giddy fans that thought he should have won the trophy in the first place. Big deal. It's not like he ran to the USC bench and did that after a TD. I know you think I'm wrong, but I think anyone who feels that strongly about the incident is far too sensitive, and I can certainly live with whatever assessment that make about me based on my thinking that way.

[MusicMan]

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No way they will take a RB, not with the zone blocking system. And nor should they, in my opinion. Get the lineman to make the system work and see where they are at.

I think Peterson will be gone by the time we pick.  Although maybe the teams ahead of us need QBs.  

Who's ahead (ie worse) than the Texans?  There's Oakland, which needs a QB.  There's Detroit, which needs a QB.  There's Tampa, which doesn't need a QB.  Then there's Cleveland, Arizona, and Washington, which as of today have the same record.  I'm not sure Peterson survives all those takers to drop to us, unless there's a lot of trading going on.

Of those teams, Cleveland by far would be the most likely to draft AP.

A loss to the Browns to close the season would greatly benefit this franchise.

ps... you really can't guess about the Lions... Matt Millen makes Charley Casserly look like a freaking genius.

[JB77]

All this talk about Vince Young being a punk is absurd. VY doing the heisman pose is the only piece of evidence that is even debatable about the subject. People that have been following Vince for a while know that he's a great guy and an even better football player. Time will tell on all fronts.

[hostros7]

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Of those teams, Cleveland by far would be the most likely to draft AP.

A loss to the Browns to close the season would greatly benefit this franchise.

Isn't that what was said about the Jets game last season?  I think they called it the..."Reggie Bush Bowl."  Er, Mario Williams Bowl.  

I won't trust the Texans to make a smart personnel move until it is done.

[Waldo]

I think that, after this thread, everybody could use a good ol' thread about zone rating and VORP.  Who's with me?!?

[Golden Sombrero]

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Of those teams, Cleveland by far would be the most likely to draft AP.

A loss to the Browns to close the season would greatly benefit this franchise.

Isn't that what was said about the Jets game last season?  I think they called it the..."Reggie Bush Bowl."  Er, Mario Williams Bowl.  

I won't trust the Texans to make a smart personnel move until it is done.

It was against San Fran, but yeah, this team can't seem to hit the ball, even when it's set up on a tee.

[MusicMan]

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I think that, after this thread, everybody could use a good ol' thread about zone rating and VORP.  Who's with me?!?

If you'd enable pictures, then Ms. Milano could have taken the thread in the proper direction.

[Dobro]

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All this talk about Vince Young being a punk is absurd. VY doing the heisman pose is the only piece of evidence that is even debatable about the subject. People that have been following Vince for a while know that he's a great guy and an even better football player. Time will tell on all fronts.

Well, as a UT fan, I've been following him for a while and I think he's a punk.  His snubbing of the office of the Presidency, the Heisman posing, and his other antics that have been discussed in this thread are evidence of his punkness.  He's got a lot to learn and a short time to do it.

[Bench]

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I think that, after this thread, everybody could use a good ol' thread about zone rating and VORP.  Who's with me?!?

If you'd enable pictures, then Ms. Milano could have taken the thread in the proper direction.

There was a bad vampire movie that came out when I was in college featuring Ms. Milano in a lesbian sex scene set in a public restroom.

Art is great.

[HudsonHawk]

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And HH... I disagree with you that striking the Heisman was "excessive." He was pandering to 50K giddy fans that thought he should have won the trophy in the first place. Big deal.

Yes, it was a big deal.  It was a major slap in the face to Reggie Bush, his opponent that he just defeated.  There is no more classless act than to rub your opponents nose in it, especially in the post-game celebration.  It was totally uncalled for and an immature display of ultimate disrespect.

[HudsonHawk]

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I think that, after this thread, everybody could use a good ol' thread about zone rating and VORP.  Who's with me?!?

If you'd enable pictures, then Ms. Milano could have taken the thread in the proper direction.

You have no idea how tempting that is.

[Ty in Tampa]

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There's Tampa, which doesn't need a QB.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Simms and Rattay are FAs after this year and Gradkowski is...well...uhhh. I would not be the least bit surprised if Gruden/Allen picked Quinn if he was available.

[Golden Sombrero]

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There's Tampa, which doesn't need a QB.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Simms and Rattay are FAs after this year and Gradkowski is...well...uhhh. I would not be the least bit surprised if Gruden/Allen picked Quinn if he was available.

I agree about Gradkowski, but I thought I remembered hearing they are committed to Simms.  Could be wrong, though.

[MusicMan]

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I think that, after this thread, everybody could use a good ol' thread about zone rating and VORP.  Who's with me?!?

If you'd enable pictures, then Ms. Milano could have taken the thread in the proper direction.

There was a bad vampire movie that came out when I was in college featuring Ms. Milano in a lesbian sex scene set in a public restroom.

Art is great.

I have never seen the movie... but the stills are fantastic.

[Ty in Tampa]

There's hope from some that they will get a deal done with Simms before he becomes a FA. There's hope from others they don't.

[Bench]

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I think that, after this thread, everybody could use a good ol' thread about zone rating and VORP.  Who's with me?!?

If you'd enable pictures, then Ms. Milano could have taken the thread in the proper direction.

There was a bad vampire movie that came out when I was in college featuring Ms. Milano in a lesbian sex scene set in a public restroom.

Art is great.

I have never seen the movie... but the stills are fantastic.

A buddy of mine had the tape and kept it set at the bathroom scene at all times. I probably saw that scene a hundred times over the course of one semester. Once I was bored enough to be tempted to watch the rest of the movie, but then I got distracted by just watching that scene a few more times.

[Curly]

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And off the field, he's got a lot to learn.

What he did after the win in the Rose Bowl last year was very punkish.  What he did today after the win was equal in punk-a-tude.  He's eventually going to have a lineman catch up to him and stomp the punk-a-holism out of him.

Until then, he's basically a really bad sportsman from my view from the couch.  Nothing humble about this kid at all.  He feeds off of being slighted by criticism or lack of awards like the Heisman or being the #1 pick.  He's amazing in his resolve and talent, he's less than amazing in his me-first attitude.

What did he do that was considered punkish after the game?  He completed a highly significant play, did it in his hometown, infront of fans that were cheering him on.  Highly spirited yes, punkish, IMO I don't think so.  "feeds off of being slighted by criticism or lacks of awards"...I guess revenge is best served in the winning column.

[No? in Austin]

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I assume you're talking about AP making a spectacle out of coming "home," only to bolt theree years later for more money, while making a number of disparaging comments about this former employer, that suggests (among other things) excessive frugality, incompetence, and a lack of respect/loyalty. What has VY done that's remotely comparable?

AP = Albert Pujols.

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Not sure about rumors of adultery. I've never heard that, and again, I'm not making comparisons between AP and VY, as I don't believe any exist at this point, appropos to the discussion at hand.

AP = Andy Pettitte.  And the issue is to question the man's behavior, not to discuss the sameness to a gnat's hair of the two.

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And it seems like you're already chalking him up to be a TO-type of guy in his fifth or sixth year, which is making a major assumption. Or maybe I'm not being fair?

You know, I've tried to be fair and above board on all this but now I'm just a tad upset that some of you are refusing to read and listen to what I do say and instead query me about stuff I never said.  The issue is not me, if it were, start a thread titled "Noe is full of shit" and let's see how far we get with that!  Probably two, maybe three post in agreement from me soon after the first post is made.  I am full of shit!  Now that that is over, can we stay on discussion about VY?

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And HH... I disagree with you that striking the Heisman was "excessive." He was pandering to 50K giddy fans that thought he should have won the trophy in the first place. Big deal. It's not like he ran to the USC bench and did that after a TD. I know you think I'm wrong, but I think anyone who feels that strongly about the incident is far too sensitive, and I can certainly live with whatever assessment that make about me based on my thinking that way.

Oh good.  HH is full of shit! (*Phew*, I thought the UT nation was still going to be on my arse... go get HH... he's the villian, not me!  Hehe! )

[matadorph]

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Young is not or ever will be a Texan. So no use debating his leval of PUNKNESS.

SO, say the Texans loose out the rest of the year. And all the other bad teams win a couple of games.

Who do you choose:

Peterson
Troy Smith
Brady Quinn
__________ other

I'm repeating myself, but unless the scouts see extraordinary leadership qualities in either Quinn or Smith, I think they should stick with the plan and build the depth on the defensive side of the football. The front seven have shown improvement, but the secondary is fucking atrocious. This team desperately needs a Polamalu/Roy Williams type of punisher. Additionally, I don't think drafting skill positions will help much until the offensive line is solidified--last year's draft was a step in the right direction, but the line's been decimated by injuries again. Hiopefully Charles Spencer will be back, but the leg injury was so severe that it may threaten his promising NFL career.

[No? in Austin]

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What did he do that was considered punkish after the game?

I was watching from the very far away place called my afternoon napping place... the couch.  I am also a very disinterested viewer, but thought it would be nice to tune in to a Houston-based scene going on.  It was a good story of hometown son comes home sort of thing.

So there I am sitting on my arse, drinking some lemonade and marvel at the young man's amazing, amazing play.  He then ran over to fans to high five and jump and holler.  Cool.  That was great and he should be excited.  Then I saw cut aways of players congratulating each other and such, but VY was still playing the crowd with chest pats.  Still cool, but I got the same uneasy feeling I got after the Rose Bowl when VY started to play the crowd and draw a lot of attention to himself.  Same miniscule line, young brash kid, full of life, maybe a tad immature.  Yeah, all is in play.  We're not talking Joe Montana here, in his glory days ya' know.

He's excited, let it go.  Sure says I.  But the feeling of uneasiness isn't something I'm going to turn a blind eye towards.  Not if I don't turn the same blind eye towards Pujols and others.

Clear as mud?

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He completed a highly significant play, did it in his hometown, infront of fans that were cheering him on.  Highly spirited yes, punkish, IMO I don't think so.  "feeds off of being slighted by criticism or lacks of awards"...I guess revenge is best served in the winning column.

Not a problem.  The issue I have come to find out is me and this damn uneasy feeling I get sometimes in terms of sportsmanship.

Maybe it was the pizza I ate for lunch yesterday!

[matadorph]

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Based on talent and need alone, I'd choose Peterson.  The Texans are in desperate need of a running back.  They're in desperate need of a lot of things, but RB is glaring.  Getting a new QB will not improve things until 1) they get a better offensive line, and 2) get a running game.

they do need a running back, but not enough to waste a high first-round pick on a position that can be sufficiently addressed with a later pick.

[Curly]

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What did he do that was considered punkish after the game?

I was watching from the very far away place called my afternoon napping place... the couch.  I am also a very disinterested viewer, but thought it would be nice to tune in to a Houston-based scene going on.  It was a good story of hometown son comes home sort of thing.

So there I am sitting on my arse, drinking some lemonade and marvel at the young man's amazing, amazing play.  He then ran over to fans to high five and jump and holler.  Cool.  That was great and he should be excited.  Then I saw cut aways of players congratulating each other and such, but VY was still playing the crowd with chest pats.  Still cool, but I got the same uneasy feeling I got after the Rose Bowl when VY started to play the crowd and draw a lot of attention to himself.  Same miniscule line, young brash kid, full of life, maybe a tad immature.  Yeah, all is in play.  We're not talking Joe Montana here, in his glory days ya' know.

He's excited, let it go.  Sure says I.  But the feeling of uneasiness isn't something I'm going to turn a blind eye towards.  Not if I don't turn the same blind eye towards Pujols and others.

Clear as mud?

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He completed a highly significant play, did it in his hometown, infront of fans that were cheering him on.  Highly spirited yes, punkish, IMO I don't think so.  "feeds off of being slighted by criticism or lacks of awards"...I guess revenge is best served in the winning column.

Not a problem.  The issue I have come to find out is me and this damn uneasy feeling I get sometimes in terms of sportsmanship.

Maybe it was the pizza I ate for lunch yesterday!

Not so much the pizza, but the barrio queso your dipping it in.

[drew corleone]

Noe... it's honestly not that big of a deal to me. I'm not trying to rile anyone up or stir shit (there are plenty of people on message boards to take the lead there).

I just don't think VY is a "punk," or has done anything classless enough to be labeled "punkish." I don't think him banging his chest after a 50-yard game-winning TD run was unsportsmanlike, and I don't have a problem with him taking a crystal football and striking a Heisman pose after a national tile game where he outshone the actual Heisman winner by a significant magnitude.

Some people on this thread disagree with me. Fine. No biggie.

[No? in Austin]

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Not so much the pizza, but the barrio queso your dipping it in.

Of course, because all this was about *ME*, not Vince Young.

[BudGirl]

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Not so much the pizza, but the barrio queso your dipping it in.

Of course, because all this was about *ME*,  

Isn't it always about you??

;-)

[No? in Austin]

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Noe... it's honestly not that big of a deal to me.

If only you knew how *NOT* a big deal this is to me too.

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I'm not trying to rile anyone up or stir shit (there are plenty of people on message boards to take the lead there).

Just trying to be consistent.  If Al Pooholes shows some lack of maturity in what he does on the field, then I can have similar feelings about VY and be entirely wrong about both.  

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I just don't think VY is a "punk," or has done anything classless enough to be labeled "punkish." I don't think him banging his chest after a 50-yard game-winning TD run was unsportsmanlike, and I don't have a problem with him taking a crystal football and striking a Heisman pose after a national tile game where he outshone the actual Heisman winner by a significant magnitude.

Some people on this thread disagree with me. Fine. No biggie.

That is what this is about.  We agree to disagree.  VY can handle the uninformed criticism from me or anyone else.  But then again, if I feel this way about a marvelous talent like Albert Pujols, I think it's fair to share what I feel about some of what I see from Vince.  He's not the statesman veteran quarterback like a Montana or others at this point in his career.  He's allowed to be slightly immature and certainly to make mistakes (IMHO on terms of sportsmanship).  Turn a blind eye to it?  I don't think I can because I don't have any vested interest in football nor Vince.

Can we agree to let time be the ultimate judge of his antics or lack thereof?

[No? in Austin]

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Not so much the pizza, but the barrio queso your dipping it in.

Of course, because all this was about *ME*,  

Isn't it always about you??

;-)

YES! (*thumping chest*)

[Bench]

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YES! (*thumping chest*)

Are you also striking a "Golden Scott" pose?

[drew corleone]

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Noe... it's honestly not that big of a deal to me.

If only you knew how *NOT* a big deal this is to me too.

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I'm not trying to rile anyone up or stir shit (there are plenty of people on message boards to take the lead there).

Just trying to be consistent.  If Al Pooholes shows some lack of maturity in what he does on the field, then I can have similar feelings about VY and be entirely wrong about both.  

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I just don't think VY is a "punk," or has done anything classless enough to be labeled "punkish." I don't think him banging his chest after a 50-yard game-winning TD run was unsportsmanlike, and I don't have a problem with him taking a crystal football and striking a Heisman pose after a national tile game where he outshone the actual Heisman winner by a significant magnitude.

Some people on this thread disagree with me. Fine. No biggie.

That is what this is about.  We agree to disagree.  VY can handle the uninformed criticism from me or anyone else.  But then again, if I feel this way about a marvelous talent like Albert Pujols, I think it's fair to share what I feel about some of what I see from Vince.  He's not the statesman veteran quarterback like a Montana or others at this point in his career.  He's allowed to be slightly immature and certainly to make mistakes (IMHO on terms of sportsmanship).  Turn a blind eye to it?  I don't think I can because I don't have any vested interest in football nor Vince.

Can we agree to let time be the ultimate judge of his antics or lack thereof?

I can live with that... as well as time being the ultimate judge of his ability as an NFL QB.

[Trey]

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Can we agree to let time be the ultimate judge of his antics or lack thereof?

No, because if there is one thing sports (journalism) has taught us, it's whatever the greatest/worst thing to happen in the last week is, it's the greatest/worst thing to happen ever.

As some would say: FACT

[WulawHorn]

Jim r has the definitive word on this thread- Noe could not be more wrong (and I love Noe's posting of a baseball nature so this isn't a shot).

VY is universally loved by every teammate he has ever played with.  He has rallied his teammates around him everywhere he has ever gone.

In the pregame Bulluck- the heart and sole of the defense was getting them all fired up. They broke the huddle with VY on Three. Think about that- the entire team was geeked up out of their mind to compete for a rookie- someone that usually gets zero respect in the NFL locker room. This is a staggering endorsement of what he means to his guys.

Reggie Bush stole VY's heisman with the national media as willing accomplisses.  Bush is the real punk (taking a swing at Cedric Griffin in the title game and also taking a swing at a Fresno Player in that game).  He was cocky and arrogant and he got his face rubbed in it at the national title game- great.

TO is a selfsih punk hated by everyone who has ever played with or coached him. VY is the greatest leader I've ever seen on a football field.

It doesn't matter what the texans do in the draft- this team will reap the mistake of passing on VY for a decade at least.

HH- you continue to amaze me in saying VY will not be a successful NFL QB. I think you and Merrill Hoge are the only two people in America who are still saying that.

He's 6-2 in his last 8 as a starter, on a team that sucked shit through a straw before he took over.  His completion percentage is about 65% his last 4 games, he's beaten both the Mannings and broke the Texans hearts.  He's more comfortable running now then he was before, but he ain't a mike vick run first guy (he still looks to pass before he tucks it if everything else breaks down).

I'm on record as saying he will be a hall of famer (barring injuries- nobody can predict those).  You say he won't be "successful".  So far my be looks more likely than yours.  Time will tell.

[Ty in Tampa]

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Jim r has the definitive word on this thread- Noe could not be more wrong (and I love Noe's posting of a baseball nature so this isn't a shot).

VY is universally loved by every teammate he has ever played with.  He has rallied his teammates around him everywhere he has ever gone.

In the pregame Bulluck- the heart and sole of the defense was getting them all fired up. They broke the huddle with VY on Three. Think about that- the entire team was geeked up out of their mind to compete for a rookie- someone that usually gets zero respect in the NFL locker room. This is a staggering endorsement of what he means to his guys.

Reggie Bush stole VY's heisman with the national media as willing accomplisses.  Bush is the real punk (taking a swing at Cedric Griffin in the title game and also taking a swing at a Fresno Player in that game).  He was cocky and arrogant and he got his face rubbed in it at the national title game- great.

TO is a selfsih punk hated by everyone who has ever played with or coached him. VY is the greatest leader I've ever seen on a football field.

It doesn't matter what the texans do in the draft- this team will reap the mistake of passing on VY for a decade at least.

HH- you continue to amaze me in saying VY will not be a successful NFL QB. I think you and Merrill Hoge are the only two people in America who are still saying that.

He's 6-2 in his last 8 as a starter, on a team that sucked shit through a straw before he took over.  His completion percentage is about 65% his last 4 games, he's beaten both the Mannings and broke the Texans hearts.  He's more comfortable running now then he was before, but he ain't a mike vick run first guy (he still looks to pass before he tucks it if everything else breaks down).

I'm on record as saying he will be a hall of famer (barring injuries- nobody can predict those).  You say he won't be "successful".  So far my be looks more likely than yours.  Time will tell.

You know this already but this is pure, unabashed, VY fanboy stuff right here.

[No? in Austin]

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YES! (*thumping chest*)

Are you also striking a "Golden Scott" pose?

Yes. Yes I am.

[WulawHorn]

Just b/c you say it's pure unadulterated fan boy stuff doesn't mean that it's wrong.  You should have seen the titans sites after the draft- nobody really wanted him (they wanted Leinhert or Cutler).  Now they believe he is going to win them a super bowl or three.

Only time will tell if he fails to succeed or if he is a hall of famer. I'm cool with that. I think I've picked a winning horse in this race.

What is not in dispute is that his teammates love him and gravitate toward him like nobody else in his situation.  Name me a rookie QB that so remarkably changed the fortunes of a horrible team. Add on to that the guys instantly rallying around him.  He's no TO, not even close.

[No? in Austin]

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He's no TO, not even close.

*sigh*  Damn, I hate me right now!

[Ty in Tampa]

I'm just sayin'. You don't sound like the most objective opinion on this subject.

[BizidyDizidy]

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I'm just sayin'. You don't sound like the most objective opinion on this subject.

Now if the question was "What does Vince Young's jock smell like" I know who I would got to.

[WulawHorn]

That's the thing- nobody who has watched VY throughout his career can be objective.  It started at Madison as he went further in the playoffs than any inner city HISD school had been in years- avereging over 50 a game.

It continued at UT when he changed the perception of a coach and an entire program.

It has (so far) continued on to the NFL where he took a horrible team and has them in the playoff race.  I might be wrong, or biased or whatever. The fact is, nobody has profitted from betting against VY so far, and I'm not one to buck such an obvious trend.

I don't claim to be unbiased.  To see him is to believe.

[No? in Austin]

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That's the thing- nobody who has watched VY throughout his career can be objective.  It started at Madison as he went further in the playoffs than any inner city HISD school had been in years- avereging over 50 a game.

It continued at UT when he changed the perception of a coach and an entire program.

It has (so far) continued on to the NFL where he took a horrible team and has them in the playoff race.  I might be wrong, or biased or whatever. The fact is, nobody has profitted from betting against VY so far, and I'm not one to buck such an obvious trend.

I don't claim to be unbiased.  To see him is to believe.

All of which has nada, zip, zero, zilch, zippo to do with anything said in this thread about the showmanship.  Try this: Subsitute Albert Pujols in the above statement you just made about Vince Young and you'll see how it all fits.  Or maybe not.  All I know is I regret the day I even so much as mentioned what I did.

I have no idea what all this crap is that is coming my way because I don't follow the NFL nor football that much!

[WulawHorn]

To your point(s?) Noe-

Nothing wrong with the celebration after the Texans game, he didn't show anyone up.

He did show up Reggie Bush at the national title game a little bit, but reggie and his bullshit antics deserved it.
He's a great teammate.

I've not heard many opposing players say anything bad about him either.  After many games you could see players on the other team lined up three deep to shake his hand.  People talked about how privilged they were to see him do his thing (much the same way Jordan was discussed). Troy Smith sang his praises at length after they won the Fiesta Bowl and VY and Texas had ended their national title hopes earlier in the year.  If he was a jackass or a punk I doubt that interview would have gone down that way.  

I don't have a problem with the post rose bowl, but reasonable minds can differ. All I'm saying is that people who know him love him, and he always gives tons of credit to teammates and opposing players.  He loves playing the game and maybe gets a little wrapped up at times in it- but I don't think it goes to showing up the opposition (except maybe Bush in the Title Game).

[sporadic]

I have no idea where all of this VY hate is coming from.  I come from a long line of Aggies, all of whom USED to say how he would never make it in the pros (he can't throw, won't be able to run, etc)...now they all LOVE him.  Why can't everyone just appreciate watching this kid grow into a fine NFL QB.  He is doing nothing but help his team win - and endear himself to his teammates and the city of Nahville in the process.  All of the haters need to just take put aside the UT penis envy and see this kid for what he is...a PHENOMENAL athlete.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

And I thought you were just petitioning to have his baby....

[sporadic]

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And I thought you were just petitioning to have his baby....

That is very funny - and if you knew WULAW, and if it were possible, he probably WOULD have VY's baby...but your little quip proves my point exactly.

[Ty in Tampa]

For the record, I like Vince Young. I lie somewhere between HH and WULawHorn. I'd like to see 2 or 3 consistent seasons of success before I anoint him King of the Universe.

[BizidyDizidy]

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For the record, I like Vince Young. I lie somewhere between HH and WULawHorn. I'd like to see 2 or 3 consistent seasons of success before I anoint him King of the Universe.

I'm with you. The only problem I have with Vince is the idiocy he inspires in his "followers".

[sporadic]

I can appreciate that.  Everyone is just itching to defend their initial (pre-draft) positions on him right now.  I just find the over the top bashing of him quite humorous.  I am in the unique position of being able to watch him as a unbiased football fan...and he fun to watch right now.  I hope it keeps up because right now he and Tony Romo are the two most fun players to watch in the NFL right now.  They both seem to play because they love football and love to compete.

[No? in Austin]

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To your point(s?) Noe-

Nothing wrong with the celebration after the Texans game, he didn't show anyone up.

Nothing wrong with Albert Pujols tossing his bat and standing there and admiring his homeruns.  He didn't show anyone up!  See how easy it is for *me* to make *definitive* statements like *you*?  I never said Vince was *definitely* a punk.  Nor did I say I was an authority on anything.  All I said was that it struck me as a bit strange to keep celebrating.  Young, brash, a bit immature, will probably learn how to be a professional as he goes along... yeah, guess who said all that?  ME!  Doesn't that register with ANYONE?

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He did show up Reggie Bush at the national title game a little bit,

WHOA!!!! That is like being a little bit pregnant.  Either he chose to punk Bush and the Trojans or not.  A little bit?

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but reggie and his bullshit antics deserved it.
He's a great teammate.

So is Albert Pujols and half of the guys he hits homeruns off of deserve it if we use your logic.  Heck, when Turk Wendell called out Barry Bonds for showmanship and being a punk, it was hilarious... but not factually wrong.

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I've not heard many opposing players say anything bad about him either.  After many games you could see players on the other team lined up three deep to shake his hand.  People talked about how privilged they were to see him do his thing (much the same way Jordan was discussed). Troy Smith sang his praises at length after they won the Fiesta Bowl and VY and Texas had ended their national title hopes earlier in the year.

Yeah, and he walks on water too!  Man, you have it bad for VY, doncha?

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If he was a jackass or a punk I doubt that interview would have gone down that way.

Please seperate what I said and what you think I said about your man.  For goodness sake!  

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I don't have a problem with the post rose bowl, but reasonable minds can differ. All I'm saying is that people who know him love him, and he always gives tons of credit to teammates and opposing players.  He loves playing the game and maybe gets a little wrapped up at times in it- but I don't think it goes to showing up the opposition (except maybe Bush in the Title Game).

Albert Pujols does great in the post game interviews and gives praise to all his opponents and such.  We had a huge thread about his comments on the MVP voting a while back, sorry you missed that.  Seperate what he says, what others praise about his tremendous talent and how classy he is with family, friends and teammates and look at how unsportsman-like it is to stand and admire your homerun.

Punkish?

Yeah, it is.  And from a class guy like Pujols who is just a tad immature.  I didn't think I could be more clear than that.  Also that time, not you or I, will tell about VY's professionalism.  It is too early to tell anything.  All I'm saying is that he's done some foolish things before.  My opinion and you seem to confirm that they were indeed foolish.  VY can rise above the fray and decide he doesn't need to show up Bush, the Heisman people or even some of those he percieves as doubters.  He can just go out and perform with his great talent and leave as a MAN about it all.  Joe Montana had to go to freaking Canada before an NFL team took a chance on him.  He proved them all wrong about him.

I don't remember Montana chest thumping, but then again, maybe I'm just totally wrong about it all.

[WulawHorn]

BD- you are a smug, smarmy prick.

Take your idiocy comments and go fuck yourself.  You have no idea how this is all going to play out.  ALl the talking head chatter said VY would need three years to learn the game (think steve mcnair- who he was most compared to).  He has reversed the course of his franchise within the first 10 starts.  You have no data points right now to suggest that the VY supporters are wrong.  NONE.  Your condescending arrogance about all things posted in this forum is noted.  You show your ass at almost all opportunities.

[BizidyDizidy]

I don't see what any fact about Vince Young has anything to do with what I said. I wasn't even talking primarily about you, unless you make a habit of calling into local talk radio. That said, I hope your rant made you feel better.

[drew corleone]

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For the record, I like Vince Young. I lie somewhere between HH and WULawHorn. I'd like to see 2 or 3 consistent seasons of success before I anoint him King of the Universe.

Hell, I annointed him that on Jan. 4.

I don't care what he does in the pros. There are two things I care about far, far beyond the NFL: Texas football and the Astros. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see VY take the Titans to a Super Bowl or be voted All-Pro. But he could flame out of the NFL tomorrow and it wouldn't change the fact that I think he had the most electrifying 12-month (and four day) span I've ever seen in college football.

[Bench]

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To your point(s?) Noe-

Nothing wrong with the celebration after the Texans game, he didn't show anyone up.

Nothing wrong with Albert Pujols tossing his bat and standing there and admiring his homeruns.  He didn't show anyone up!  

Just to jump into the quibble-fest: There's a difference between hopping around pounding your chest after winning a game by scoring a fantastic sudden death touchdown and admiring your shot after a homerun. More comparable is a player (oh, that Ortiz guy does it a lot) hitting a "walk-off" homerun and jumping around with his teammates after stomping on the plate. I think jumping around then is quite justified. Heck, I still smile when I think of Kent flipping his helmet into the bluebonnets in The Happy Game 5.

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Albert Pujols does great in the post game interviews and gives praise to all his opponents and such.  

Except for that Tom Glavine feller.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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And I thought you were just petitioning to have his baby....

That is very funny - and if you knew WULAW, and if it were possible, he probably WOULD have VY's baby...but your little quip proves my point exactly.

Was your point that Wulaw has a major man-crush on Vince Young?  If so, great.  Otherwise, I don't know what the hell you are talking about.  I have posted nothing about my opinion on Vince Young, so don't assume you know shit about my opinion on the subject.

[WulawHorn]

Noe- I guess the thing with me is that context means something.

If Albert Pujols tosses his bat and stares after a majestic homerun against a pitcher with clown like antics of a Taveraz (or a Lima from local perspective) I don't have a problem with it. It's payback and a got what you deserve.

Similarly, if a pitcher wants to break down and dance or point after striking out Bonds I would tend to the opinion that you get what you deserve for being a jerk your own self.  I'm not saying it is the most honorable way to handle you succeeding in your confrontation, but I get why it was handled that way and don't have a real problem with it. If you wanna clown a clown I guess that doesn't bother me as much as being a clown in the first place- if that makes sense.

The comment about opposing players lining up to shake his hand and praising him afterwards all last year is a fact.  Those OSU guys were great defensively and there was a ton of mutual respect.  If your opponents don't have a problem with your play then I tend toward the opinion that you aren't showing them up- that is all.


I was around for all the pujols threads (admiring HR's and the MVP voting).  I understand what you are saying.  I guess where it breaks down for me is that I don't think Albert Pujols is a class guy at all, so I don't like the comparison. I think he's a fraud and a  prima donna, and I don't think that he commands the love and respect of a guy like VY.  Amazement at his abilities, yes.  The guy is in a league all his own.  I think he's an ass, however.  That deal with the scout that signed him is a head scratcher to me. I think Albert's true self is the self-aggrandizing jerk that you see on the field, not the carefully cultivated media persona he puts on (which is starting to be questioned with antics with the press like he had throughout the entire post season- imho).

I understand that you are speaking for you. I just think that the data lines up contrary to  your opinion. I would not have even tried to respond two or three times were it not for the respect I have for your opinions on this forum.

For example, I'm done with BD.  I don't care what he has to say.  For some reason (I guess b/c I like/respect 97% of your posts I have tried to communicate further with you).

Like I said, reasonable minds can differ on things like the Rose Bowl. I  think that is an aberation and not a trend, and was deserved by Bush (I already explained how I felt about showing up a showboat- it doesn't bother me- I would venture to guess that it would you). No problem with that.

[hostros7]

Vince Young: The Rookie QB who could launch a thousand ships. or bitching posts.  or something.

[WulawHorn]

Bench- agreed completely.  You put the difference in a much more understandable and concise way then I have.  I agree with everything that you said. If VY did that after a TD in the 3rd Q he would have been flagged for unsportsmanlike penalty and I would have criticized him for putting himself above the team (by costing them 15 yards to pimp himself).

After the game is over, in OT it is like a walk off and all such celebrations seem to be fair game.

[No? in Austin]

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Just to jump into the quibble-fest: There's a difference between hopping around pounding your chest after winning a game by scoring a fantastic sudden death touchdown and admiring your shot after a homerun. More comparable is a player (oh, that Ortiz guy does it a lot) hitting a "walk-off" homerun and jumping around with his teammates after stomping on the plate. I think jumping around then is quite justified. Heck, I still smile when I think of Kent flipping his helmet into the bluebonnets in The Happy Game 5.

Or the Sammy Sosa bunny hop.  The Cincinatti Gay Hop.  The profound outfielder chest bump.  All celebrations of course and borderline depending on your own sensitivities.  I am going to have to bow out of this discussion any way because I can't seem to get the point across that I don't think Vince Young is an axe murderer.

I think it is now on record that I think he is (for some unknown reason).  I deserve that I guess for my lack of coherent talk when it comes to this football thing that I don't follow any more.  I thought I was giving it away when I mentioned Joe Montana and professionalism therein, but I'm not the guy the NFL sells it's product to any way.  Those guys are on beer commercials, have painted faces and order pizza by the dozen (and Jerry Jones comes to your house too!) I'm not that guy.  I'm Mr. Outside Looking In.  I'm an idiot when it comes to football.  I'm almost like a little child in innocent yet very uninformed observations.

So when I say that I see something, the context is that I'm verrah stupid when it comes to these things, so if I'm wrong about showmanship and being a bit of a classless act in football, I admit it: What the fuck do I know!

But I've been disappointed with most of the responses in turn as well.  Only because I expected to learn more than I have.  Bring me up to speed here people, I'm lost in that time warp of the Joe Montana NFL where I left it many years ago.  Who is this Ocho Cinco fella?  Que es this TO?  Are they not like the funniest guys since Shannon Sharpe to come around that you've ever seen?  And people, should you not celebrate them instead of hate them?

I mean, really, educate me on the differences subtle as they may be.  I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

(Psss... the reason I want to learn so that I can make sure when I feel uneasy about Pujol's classless act of watching a homerun fly out of the park, yet have a good amount of respect for the man, his principles and his otherwise good ways as a teammate, I can then live comfortably knowing it is seperate yet the same with Pujols.  A man can be immature and lacking the refinement to his game in terms of classy behavior on-field to match what he is off-field as well.  It can happen I guess.  I don't want to feel uneasy about Pujols, so when you see VY doing the Heisman Hop, how do you live with it?)

[matadorph]

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Bench- agreed completely.  You put the difference in a much more understandable and concise way then I have.  I agree with everything that you said. If VY did that after a TD in the 3rd Q he would have been flagged for unsportsmanlike penalty and I would have criticized him for putting himself above the team (by costing them 15 yards to pimp himself).

After the game is over, in OT it is like a walk off and all such celebrations seem to be fair game.

exactly. honestly, the difference is so fucking obvious that I'm shocked that an intelligent guy like Noe wouldn't pick up on it right away.

I'm a UT alum who's always been very ambivalent about the football program, so I consider myself fairly objective in my assessment of Vince Young. I'm no UT fanboy, but that Vince Young is amazing. And I don't think he's a punk at all. Yes, he's brash and kinda immature, but there's little comparison between his behavior in the context of WINNNING A GAME in dramatic fashion and Albert Pujols constantly gawking at his home runs.

I criticize Pujols a lot for gawking, but I wouldn't begrudge the man for celebrating a game-winning HR.

[No? in Austin]

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Bench- agreed completely.  You put the difference in a much more understandable and concise way then I have.  I agree with everything that you said. If VY did that after a TD in the 3rd Q he would have been flagged for unsportsmanlike penalty and I would have criticized him for putting himself above the team (by costing them 15 yards to pimp himself).

After the game is over, in OT it is like a walk off and all such celebrations seem to be fair game.

Okay, I'm getting it now... celebrations *AFTER* a game are *ALL* fair game because.. well, I'm not sure, but they are.  Got it!

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exactly. honestly, the difference is so fucking obvious that I'm shocked that an intelligent guy like Noe wouldn't pick up on it right away.

Ah, that was your first mistake.  Ascribing intelligence and football to me is verrah bad thing indeed.  But I'm wondering, do I really come across as saying that Vince Young is the anti-christ?  If so, I wanna know because I gotta work on my communication skeels (as if I didn't know that already!).

[matadorph]

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HH- you continue to amaze me in saying VY will not be a successful NFL QB. I think you and Merrill Hoge are the only two people in America who are still saying that.

No, you don't understand.  Vince Young can't throw downfield.

[matadorph]

No, I don't think you're misunderstood. I hear you what you're saying-- the kid does have a bit of a cocky swagger--I just don't think it's anywhere close to Pujols, Bonds, or Sammy the Clown.

[Golden Sombrero]

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No, I don't think you're misunderstood. I hear you what you're saying-- the kid does have a bit of a cocky swagger--I just don't think it's anywhere close to Pujols, Bonds, or Sammy the Clown.

It be hard not to have swagger if you have talent at that level.  Modesty is okay in small doses, but sometimes I like the change of pace of an "I'm the Greatest" sort of guy.

[matadorph]

And physical talent aside, his flair for the dramatic is mind-boggling.

[The Third Man]

I don't think there is enough evidence to convict Young of being anything other than a little cocky and ungracious. He's certainly not a punk. I am not ready to put him in the Hall of Fame, though. Ben Rothilsberger, Duante Culpepper, Eli Manning, Tony Eason and Michael Vick are only a few recent (well, except for Eason) examples of QBs who set the world on fire and came back down to earth after the defensive coordinators of the NFL picked them apart. The Titans usually put Young in a good position, but you have to credit him with rising up when it counts. He's definitely a winner. It will be fun to watch him.

[HudsonHawk]

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Jim r has the definitive word on this thread- Noe could not be more wrong (and I love Noe's posting of a baseball nature so this isn't a shot).

VY is universally loved by every teammate he has ever played with.  He has rallied his teammates around him everywhere he has ever gone.

In the pregame Bulluck- the heart and sole of the defense was getting them all fired up. They broke the huddle with VY on Three. Think about that- the entire team was geeked up out of their mind to compete for a rookie- someone that usually gets zero respect in the NFL locker room. This is a staggering endorsement of what he means to his guys.

Reggie Bush stole VY's heisman with the national media as willing accomplisses.  Bush is the real punk (taking a swing at Cedric Griffin in the title game and also taking a swing at a Fresno Player in that game).  He was cocky and arrogant and he got his face rubbed in it at the national title game- great.

TO is a selfsih punk hated by everyone who has ever played with or coached him. VY is the greatest leader I've ever seen on a football field.

It doesn't matter what the texans do in the draft- this team will reap the mistake of passing on VY for a decade at least.

HH- you continue to amaze me in saying VY will not be a successful NFL QB. I think you and Merrill Hoge are the only two people in America who are still saying that.

He's 6-2 in his last 8 as a starter, on a team that sucked shit through a straw before he took over.  His completion percentage is about 65% his last 4 games, he's beaten both the Mannings and broke the Texans hearts.  He's more comfortable running now then he was before, but he ain't a mike vick run first guy (he still looks to pass before he tucks it if everything else breaks down).

I'm on record as saying he will be a hall of famer (barring injuries- nobody can predict those).  You say he won't be "successful".  So far my be looks more likely than yours.  Time will tell.

LOL...I haven't seen this much dick sucking since Backdoor Sluts 9.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:
I have no idea where all of this VY hate is coming from.  I come from a long line of Aggies, all of whom USED to say how he would never make it in the pros (he can't throw, won't be able to run, etc)...now they all LOVE him.  Why can't everyone just appreciate watching this kid grow into a fine NFL QB.  He is doing nothing but help his team win - and endear himself to his teammates and the city of Nahville in the process.  All of the haters need to just take put aside the UT penis envy and see this kid for what he is...a PHENOMENAL athlete.

I haven't seen any VY hate, and certainly no one in this thread has said they hate him.  A few posters want to have his baby, but no hate.

[HudsonHawk]

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HH- you continue to amaze me in saying VY will not be a successful NFL QB. I think you and Merrill Hoge are the only two people in America who are still saying that.

No, you don't understand.  Vince Young can't throw downfield.

He can't.  A few clips of him throwing 10-yard dump passes like David Carr doens't prove otherwise.  He's going to complete a few passes.  I can't see how he can possibly avoid it.  That doesn't mean he's a good passer.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Aftyer reading 10 pages, I can't not say something.

Michael Vick is a punk.

Allen Iverson is a punk.

Jeff Allison and Josh Hamilton are punks.

Milton Bradley is a punk.

Jeremy Shockey, punk.

Andy Pettitte is a hypocritcal fraud.

T.O. is a paranoid narcissist.

Albert Pujols and Vince Young are misguided in their sometimes punkish actions.
 
Nobody is perfect but in terms of character, I'd take Albert and Vince over any of those aforementioned punks.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Aftyer reading 10 pages, I can't not say something.

Michael Vick is a punk.

Allen Iverson is a punk.

Jeff Allison and Josh Hamilton are punks.

Milton Bradley is a punk.

Jeremy Shockey, punk.

Andy Pettitte is a hypocritcal fraud.

T.O. is a paranoid narcissist.

Albert Pujols and Vince Young are misguided in their sometimes punkish actions.
 
Nobody is perfect but in terms of character, I'd take Albert and Vince over any of those aforementioned punks.

Oooh... nicely done Sphinx!  I like what you said!

[drew corleone]

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I have no idea where all of this VY hate is coming from.  I come from a long line of Aggies, all of whom USED to say how he would never make it in the pros (he can't throw, won't be able to run, etc)...now they all LOVE him.  Why can't everyone just appreciate watching this kid grow into a fine NFL QB.  He is doing nothing but help his team win - and endear himself to his teammates and the city of Nahville in the process.  All of the haters need to just take put aside the UT penis envy and see this kid for what he is...a PHENOMENAL athlete.

I haven't seen any VY hate, and certainly no one in this thread has said they hate him.  A few posters want to have his baby, but no hate.

I guess you didn't see Dobros's posts... of course 75% of the board probably has him on ignore.

[hostros7]

I think I may have to put him on ignore...not as much for the acerbic nature of 95% of his/her posts, but more so I never have to see that picture of John Kerry's wife ever again.

[cougar]

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I have no idea where all of this VY hate is coming from.  I come from a long line of Aggies, all of whom USED to say how he would never make it in the pros (he can't throw, won't be able to run, etc)...now they all LOVE him.  Why can't everyone just appreciate watching this kid grow into a fine NFL QB.  He is doing nothing but help his team win - and endear himself to his teammates and the city of Nahville in the process.  All of the haters need to just take put aside the UT penis envy and see this kid for what he is...a PHENOMENAL athlete.

I haven't seen any VY hate, and certainly no one in this thread has said they hate him.  A few posters want to have his baby, but no hate.

I don't hate Vince Young (I even liked him at UT and I don't like UT) but I'm getting to really hate the "Vince Young is God and anyone who says different is stoopid!" mindset a LOT of the Vince Young fans have had since before the draft.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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I think I may have to put him on ignore...not as much for the acerbic nature of 95% of his/her posts, but more so I never have to see that picture of John Kerry's wife ever again.

That who that is!!! All this time I thought it was Marjoe Gortner. Man, I can't believe John Kerry would marry such an hideous slattern. I'm guessing she has a nice personality. No?

[Phil_in_CS]

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Quote:
I think I may have to put him on ignore...not as much for the acerbic nature of 95% of his/her posts, but more so I never have to see that picture of John Kerry's wife ever again.

That who that is!!! All this time I thought it was Marjoe Gortner. Man, I can't believe John Kerry would marry such an hideous slattern. I'm guessing she has a nice personality. No?

She has these big, gigantic, enormous, bags of money....

[cougar]

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Quote:

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I think I may have to put him on ignore...not as much for the acerbic nature of 95% of his/her posts, but more so I never have to see that picture of John Kerry's wife ever again.

That who that is!!! All this time I thought it was Marjoe Gortner. Man, I can't believe John Kerry would marry such an hideous slattern. I'm guessing she has a nice personality. No?

She has these big, gigantic, enormous, bags of money....

Does she have huge.....tracks of land too?

It all comes back to Monty Python.

[tophfar]

Quote:
I think I may have to put him on ignore...not as much for the acerbic nature of 95% of his/her posts, but more so I never have to see that picture of John Kerry's wife ever again.

i swear to god, in all honesty, i thought that was carrot top.

[Curly]

Noe...what's the difference between Pujols and Reggie's post swing pauses?

[Curly]

LOL...I haven't seen this much dick sucking since Backdoor Sluts 9.



So that was the title they gave to the Clemens signing day video.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

Quote:
I think I may have to put him on ignore...not as much for the acerbic nature of 95% of his/her posts, but more so I never have to see that picture of John Kerry's wife ever again.

That who that is!!! All this time I thought it was Marjoe Gortner. Man, I can't believe John Kerry would marry such an hideous slattern. I'm guessing she has a nice personality. No?

Oh come on, she's not that bad for an old lady.  If you take an infinite number of snapshots of anyone, I'm sure you can find them in a pose where they've just sneezed or wrinkled their nose or have a suprised look on their face.

[HudsonHawk]

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LOL...I haven't seen this much dick sucking since Backdoor Sluts 9.



So that was the title they gave to the Clemens signing day video.




The Clemens video makes Backdoor Sluts 9 look like Horny Nurses 7.

[WulawHorn]

LOL...I haven't seen this much dick sucking since Backdoor Sluts 9.



HH- I haven't seen this much ignorance since the last time you spoke out of your ass about VY.  At the time he was 2-2 as a starter in the NFL and all you could talk about was how much he sucked. Fast forward a few months in time and he is 6-2 in his last 8 ball games, starting to throw for a good percentage and has won 4 in a row when he was absolutely critical to 3 of those victories.

[drew corleone]

In regard to the thread title... didn't VY play baseball in HS? Or maybe not. I thought I read somewhere that he liked playing baseball, but switched to football because he enjoyed contact.

[HudsonHawk]

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HH- I haven't seen this much ignorance since the last time you spoke out of your ass about VY.  At the time he was 2-2 as a starter in the NFL and all you could talk about was how much he sucked.

You're hallucinating again.  I said VY was overrated and will not be successful in the NFL.  I never talked about "how much he sucked".  If you're gonna try to pick fights, at least get your shit straight.

[MRaup]

Quote:


You're hallucinating again.  I said VY was overrated and will not be successful in the NFL.  I never talked about "how much he sucked".  If you're gonna try to pick fights, at least get your shit straight.

Oh for god's sake. (Not directed at you HH, directed at this thread in general) Seriously.

I bleed orange, I love Texas football, and VY is and was awesome at UT. But, you're not going to change anyone's mind playing the part of adoring fanboy here. HH is notoriously anti-UT, and no matter what you say about VY, I'd say that his mind is already made up. Freaking out about people not thinking Vince is great is not going to convince them otherwise. All its going to do is produce 11 pages of mostly unreadable posts.

[HudsonHawk]

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HH is notoriously anti-UT,

Huh???  I have no connection whatsoever with UT other than I rooted hard for them in the Rose Bowl last year.

[Lefty]

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That who that is!!!

Always thought it was Dave Foley in drag from The Kids in the Hall.

[MRaup]

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HH is notoriously anti-UT,

Huh???  I have no connection whatsoever with UT other than I rooted hard for them in the Rose Bowl last year.

In the past, you've had a fairly anti-UT/pro-UH stance in most things college (in my not humble at all opinion).

[HudsonHawk]

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In the past, you've had a fairly anti-UT/pro-UH stance in most things college (in my not humble at all opinion).

When UH plays UT, I root for UH, of course, UH is my school.  But I'm not anti-UT.  I'd say I'm much more anti-TAMU than I am anti-UT.  I root for UT against pretty much anyone other than UH, especially against a non-Texas school.  In fact, in my not so humble opinion, I think I'm pretty darn objective when it comes to UT.

[Ty in Tampa]

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In fact, in my not so humble opinion, I think I'm pretty darn objective when it comes to UT.

As an objective Horn fan, (I didn't go there) I'll give you that.

[Ty in Tampa]

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That who that is!!!

Always thought it was Dave Foley in drag from The Kids in the Hall.

I thought it was the mom in 'That 70s Show'

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Quote:

Quote:

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I think I may have to put him on ignore...not as much for the acerbic nature of 95% of his/her posts, but more so I never have to see that picture of John Kerry's wife ever again.

That who that is!!! All this time I thought it was Marjoe Gortner. Man, I can't believe John Kerry would marry such an hideous slattern. I'm guessing she has a nice personality. No?

Oh come on, she's not that bad for an old lady.  If you take an infinite number of snapshots of anyone, I'm sure you can find them in a pose where they've just sneezed or wrinkled their nose or have a suprised look on their face.

You're right, on second glance, she looks like a billion dollars.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Noe...what's the difference between Pujols and Reggie's post swing pauses?

Nothing.  Why?

[WulawHorn]

HH is more than able to have as closed a mind as he wants. All I'm pointing out is that there has been additonal data points since the last time we went round and round on this.

Vince is now 6-2 in his last 8. HH still says he won't succeed as an NFL QB.  He's been the rookie of the week 3 times in a row and will probably be rookie of the year.  I would think that data points would change his opinion. Maybe his mind is just made up and nothing will.

I remember growing up when I thought Michael Jordan was incredibly overrated.  All sorts of stats/wins and losses and the like couldn't get me to change my opinion. Then I watched him one year in the playoffs and it was like the lights turned on and I saw what everyone else had been saying. This was all the way into the early 90's though.

[drew corleone]

So then what's the deal with Kendall Briles? did he play at all this year? When he left Texas I had hoped he'd make a name for himself at UH.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

Vince is now 6-2 in his last 8. HH still says he won't succeed as an NFL QB.  He's been the rookie of the week 3 times in a row and will probably be rookie of the year.  I would think that data points would change his opinion. Maybe his mind is just made up and nothing will.

5 years of data points will change my opinion, not 6 games.  Sorry if your opinion is so precarious.

Quote:

I remember growing up when I thought Michael Jordan was incredibly overrated.  All sorts of stats/wins and losses and the like couldn't get me to change my opinion. Then I watched him one year in the playoffs and it was like the lights turned on and I saw what everyone else had been saying. This was all the way into the early 90's though.

Good for you and your epiphany.

[drew corleone]

Quote:
Vince is now 6-2 in his last 8. HH still says he won't succeed as an NFL QB.  He's been the rookie of the week 3 times in a row and will probably be rookie of the year.  I would think that data points would change his opinion. Maybe his mind is just made up and nothing will.

Gabe... I'm not sure VY has ROY locked up, and even as a huge VY guy myself, I don't think that an 8-game stretch is necessarily an indicator of future success.

I do, however, think that just based on what I've seen the past 24 months, he is the caliber of player that has the chance to do great things in the NFL. I'm certainly hoping that he does.

[HudsonHawk]

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So then what's the deal with Kendall Briles? did he play at all this year? When he left Texas I had hoped he'd make a name for himself at UH.

Briles did not play this year, after injuring his shoulder for the umpteenth time.  He got a lot of playing time at WR last year and some as the backup QB.  He transferred to UH from UT in 2003 with hopes of being the starting QB, but couldn't beat out Kolb, despite being the coach's son.  I'm not sure what his status is, considering he redshirted one year at UT and then sat out all of 2003 when he transferred.  I think he's pretty much done, but I don't know for sure.

[Curly]

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Noe...what's the difference between Pujols and Reggie's post swing pauses?

Nothing.  Why?

Just seeing if cap tipping ended before Reggie.

[BudGirl]

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So then what's the deal with Kendall Briles? did he play at all this year? When he left Texas I had hoped he'd make a name for himself at UH.

Briles did not play this year, after injuring his shoulder for the umpteenth time.  He got a lot of playing time at WR last year and some as the backup QB.  He transferred to UH from UT in 2003 with hopes of being the starting QB, but couldn't beat out Kolb, despite being the coach's son.  I'm not sure what his status is, considering he redshirted one year at UT and then sat out all of 2003 when he transferred.  I think he's pretty much done, but I don't know for sure.

I didn't know Briles was ever considered the QB at UH, especially when Kolb said he was coming.  Kendall was Kolb's favorite receiver before his shoulder injury.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

I didn't know Briles was ever considered the QB at UH, especially when Kolb said he was coming.  Kendall was Kolb's favorite receiver before his shoulder injury.

Well he wasn't, but he wanted to be.  He was a defensive back at UT, and hoped to play QB at UH, but with Kolb there, didn't get the chance.  He was a productive receiver though.

[JB77]

The latest, from yesterday's game:

Bills linebacker Takeo Spikes said he's gotten a kick out of Titans quarterback Vince Young's surge this season.

"Some of the so-called experts tried to say, 'Look at his release' or 'Look at his Wonderlic test.' Now it is like he is shoving it up their (ass),'' Spikes said. "I like that. I really do. The guy is a baller, man. Point blank. Period. He makes plays. He is a winner.''

and a random  nugget

Merry Christmas, Bah Humbug, and all that good stuff to all...

[Spack McGrimm]

Don't abuse the Non-BB privileges around here.