Soriano, A Cub. Fuck.

[Alkie]

I didn't think we'd get him.  I'm not sure I wanted him going to a division rival.  

EIGHT fucking years and a boatload of money.  

I can't see the Astros coming close to the offer he accepted.

ETA: "Boatload of money" = $17m PER, over 8 years.  Unless he ends up being Albert Pujols, this was an exceptionally stupid contract.  I'm glad it wasn't us.

[stubbyc]

Quote:
I didn't think we'd get him.  I'm not sure I wanted him going to a division rival.  

EIGHT fucking years and a boatload of money.  

I can't see the Astros coming close to the offer he accepted.

ETA: "Boatload of money" = $17m PER, over 8 years.  Unless he ends up being Albert Pujols, this was an exceptionally stupid contract.  I'm glad it wasn't us.

How long until they're begging the Yankees to take the contract?

[Alkie]

Ha.  That's EXACTLY what I was thinking after I did the quick math.

I'll bet ANYONE he doesn't make it thru this contract with the Cubs.  

He'll be a Yankee by 2011.

[Alkie]

Does anyone have easy access to a list of the longest/biggest MLB contracts ever?

I remember a few years ago, someone had said that not one player had ever lived out a more-than-four-year contract in MLB history or something.  Was wondering if that was still true.

[Dobro]

Quote:
He'll be a Yankee by 2011.

By 2011?  You're much more optomistic than I am.

[Alkie]

I was saying worst-case (or best-case).

Here's what'll happen.

He'll have a decent year.  In 2008, he'll have a great month and get injured for the rest of the year.  The Cubs will come in 5th and everyone will blame his injury.  In 2009, he'll come back and go .285/24/87.  They start talking about trading him that offseason.

[schlumburger04]

Quote:
Ha.  That's EXACTLY what I was thinking after I did the quick math.

I'll bet ANYONE he doesn't make it thru this contract with the Cubs.  

He'll be a Yankee by 2011.

a mid 30s shitty player with an 8/135 is almost impossible to trade. the cubs are gonna be burned BAD by this and it makes me feel good

[Alkie]

For a change, it looks like we agree on something.

I have a feeling this will be remembered as one of the dumbest contracts ever.

I'm really, really happy it wasn't us.  

4 years for $60m would have been about the reasonable limit.

[Browneye]

So how stupid does the Nats GM look now? He could have traded this tird at the deadline and got something for him. Now he has nothing. The Nats thought they could sign Soriano?

[Alkie]

Actually, what it makes me think about is this:

Where was I 8 years ago?  I had just dropped out of UT for the second time.  I was tending bar for a living and sleeping on a $5 futon I bought at a garage sale.  

8 years seems like a long time.

Seriously, I could see 8 years for Pujols.  That's it.  And even Pujols...I'd have to think long and hard about for an 8 year deal.

[Cheo]

Quote:
So how stupid does the Nats GM look now? He could have traded this tird at the deadline and got something for him. Now he has nothing. The Nats thought they could sign Soriano?

I believe he gets a 1st round pick next season and maybe another lower round pick as well.

[Browneye]

Quote:

Quote:
So how stupid does the Nats GM look now? He could have traded this tird at the deadline and got something for him. Now he has nothing. The Nats thought they could sign Soriano?

I believe he gets a 1st round pick next season and maybe another lower round pick as well.

Teams were offering major league ready prospects. I beleive, from what I heard here in Washington, the astros were going to give 2 or 3 prospect for the rental and they turned it down. They thought Soriano might stay.

[Arky Vaughan]

The Cubs have now committed $32 million per year to two players for the next five years.

[Alkie]

Well, ok, let's think this out.  Let's say, barring injury, the Cubs don't need to worry about their #3 and #4 in the lineup for 5 years.

Is that worth $32m per?

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Well, ok, let's think this out.  Let's say, barring injury, the Cubs don't need to worry about their #3 and #4 in the lineup for 5 years.

Is that worth $32m per?

If you knew you'd get 60 homers and 200 RBIs out of them, that's not really a bad buy.

Is Derrek Lee being re-signed?

[Alkie]

Hmm...not sure.

If they get Lee for about what he cost year ($9.5m), you've got a really solid 3/4/5 for $42m per year.  

I guess you could argue that with a team of cheap role players, that team should still score a ton of runs.

I guess if the Cubs have an above average pitching staff...maybe it ain't that bad.  

I mean, if you were able to spend $20m on the rest of the regulars and then had $35-$40m to spend on the rotation; you're probably looking at a playoff contender, no?  Isn't that about what the Cubs will be spending?

[Alkie]

Hey, what's our payroll at right now?  Don't assume Pettitte or Clemens or anything else.

[stubbyc]

Quote:

Quote:
Well, ok, let's think this out.  Let's say, barring injury, the Cubs don't need to worry about their #3 and #4 in the lineup for 5 years.

Is that worth $32m per?

If you knew you'd get 60 homers and 200 RBIs out of them, that's not really a bad buy.

Is Derrek Lee being re-signed?

Lee got resigned for 13 mil per. The Cubs payroll is at about 105 mil right now and they are reportedly going to take that up to 120.

[stubbyc]

Quote:
Well, ok, let's think this out.  Let's say, barring injury, the Cubs don't need to worry about their #3 and #4 in the lineup for 5 years.

Is that worth $32m per?

Soriano is going to bat leadoff.

[Alkie]

You're kidding.

[jaklewein]

Wow, what does this do for Vernon Wells' next contract?  While his value in dollars just went up, I'm guessing the Jays' trade value may have just went down as they will not give him that kind of money.

We have a CF and relief pitching that is very valuable on the market right now.  I don't know about you guys...but in the event we're thinking about spending some serius cash on Lee, I'd love to see us make a move for Wells and give him  the sun, moon and stars instead.

[schlumburger04]

Quote:
You're kidding.

he is indeed gonna lead off and will be playing CF(lol)

[Alkie]

This just made this one of the stupidest moves I've ever seen.

It's just so......Cubbie.

[schlumburger04]

Quote:
Wow, what does this do for Vernon Wells' next contract?  

his agent came out and said not too long ago that he wanted beltran money, and this made me laugh a little. but considering what the dumbass cubs just did, giving wells that kind of money now just might be a bargain

[Reuben]

Quote:
Wow, what does this do for Vernon Wells' next contract?  While his value in dollars just went up, I'm guessing the Jays' trade value may have just went down as they will not give him that kind of money.

We have a CF and relief pitching that is very valuable on the market right now.  I don't know about you guys...but in the event we're thinking about spending some serius cash on Lee, I'd love to see us make a move for Wells and give him  the sun, moon and stars instead.

I think you might be on to something. My other train of thought is, forget about Carlos Lee, forget about the word "slugger," I'll take my chances with Lance Berkman, Adam Everett, Brad Ausmus, and 4-5 other guys who can all hit .285 or so, get on base, hit some doubles, hit 12-20 homers,  and spend the extra cash on some nice flowers for Andy Pettitte's wife.

The Tigers didn't even have one guy as good as Berkman. But they had a bunch of pretty good players. I won't even mention the pitching.

What does Luis Gonzalez want?

[Alkie]

Quote:
What does Luis Gonzalez want?

That was exactly my thought.

I read that McLane already said "no" to that; I wonder what the fuck happened.

[Jacksonian]

Quote:

Quote:
So how stupid does the Nats GM look now? He could have traded this tird at the deadline and got something for him. Now he has nothing. The Nats thought they could sign Soriano?

I believe he gets a 1st round pick next season and maybe another lower round pick as well.

They'll get a supplemental first rounder and likely the Cubs second rounder.

[pravata]

Spending other people's money  Link

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:
Ha.  That's EXACTLY what I was thinking after I did the quick math.

I'll bet ANYONE he doesn't make it thru this contract with the Cubs.  

He'll be a Yankee by 2011.

He got a no trade clause.  Sweet deal...for Soriano anyways.

[Froback]

All this talk about Wells possibly wanting Beltran got me wondering... are the THAT much different?  Both are gold glove caliber CFers.

The real difference is age, since Beltran was a FA two years ago, and Wells will be one next year, so that makes a 3 year difference (since Wells is 1 year younger than Beltran overall).  Wells will be 31, and Beltran was 28 at the time of being a FA.

But thier career numbers are at pro-rated 162 game career averages:

Beltran: .281/.355/.492 with 28HRs 31SBs 105RBIs 114 Runs
Wells: .288/.336/.492 with 28HRs 10SBs 99RBIs 94 Runs

While Beltran is better overall than Wells, Wells is not THAT much different and if we buy into the Players salaries go up every year belief, Wells might be close to Beltran Money in todays market.

Just a thought (not really an endorsement of that idea)

[Limey]

Quote:
Spending other people's money  Link

"There are lots of people in Chicago who are interested in the Cubs. It's largely psychological and somewhat financial."

I would've used "pathological" myself.

[hostros7]

How again is Soriano a "gold glove caliber" CFer?

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:
How again is Soriano a "gold glove caliber" CFer?

He was talking about Wells

[hostros7]

Sorry.  Hadn't even drank my coffee yet.

[Foghorn]

Quote:
I didn't think we'd get him.  I'm not sure I wanted him going to a division rival.  

EIGHT fucking years and a boatload of money.  

I can't see the Astros coming close to the offer he accepted.

ETA: "Boatload of money" = $17m PER, over 8 years.  Unless he ends up being Albert Pujols, this was an exceptionally stupid contract.  I'm glad it wasn't us.

Its not an exceptionally stupid contract unless the Tribune Company lets it be an exceptionally stupid contract.  The only thing keeping the Cubs from being the Red Sox/Yankees in terms of payroll is a lack of willingness from the Trib.

They draw drunks from all over the midWest to that shitty ballpark at 1060 W Addison, charge them $7 for fucking Old Style.  Scalp their own tickets to the fans.  Put the game on WGN, engage in crazy ass schemes of transfer pricing, and make a mint.

They day those cocksuckers realize they can still make a nice profit AND field a $160M payroll is a dark day for Astros fans.

[Ty in Tampa]

They day those cocksuckers realize they can still make a nice profit AND field a $160M payroll is a dark day for Astros fans.

Yeah, but they'd still be the Cubs. Fuck 'em.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Lee got resigned for 13 mil per. The Cubs payroll is at about 105 mil right now and they are reportedly going to take that up to 120.

So that's Lee through 2011 at $13 million, Ramirez through 2011 at $14.6 million and Soriano through 2014 at $17 million. Barring injuries, that group should be good for roughly 100 homers and 300 RBIs per season, at least for the next couple of years, for $44.6 million. Who knows what payrolls will be like in 2010 or 2011 anyway?

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
So that's Lee through 2011 at $13 million, Ramirez through 2011 at $14.6 million and Soriano through 2014 at $17 million. Barring injuries, that group should be good for roughly 100 homers and 300 RBIs per season, at least for the next couple of years, for $44.6 million. Who knows what payrolls will be like in 2010 or 2011 anyway?

Question: if you had $45 million to spend, would you rather have Ramirez, Lee and Soriano, or would you rather have three front-line starters making $15 million each? Seems like for that kind of money, you could get guys capable of piling up 600 innings and going, say, 50-25 between them.

[jaklewein]

Quote:

Quote:
So that's Lee through 2011 at $13 million, Ramirez through 2011 at $14.6 million and Soriano through 2014 at $17 million. Barring injuries, that group should be good for roughly 100 homers and 300 RBIs per season, at least for the next couple of years, for $44.6 million. Who knows what payrolls will be like in 2010 or 2011 anyway?

Question: if you had $45 million to spend, would you rather have Ramirez, Lee and Soriano, or would you rather have three front-line starters making $15 million each? Seems like for that kind of money, you could get guys capable of piling up 600 innings and going, say, 50-25 between them.

I agree...that's why I'm not worried about the Cubbies' dealings.  Oswalt, Pettitte and possibly Roger...along with Woody is a great starting staff.  Just give me Huff in the mix on offense and I think Pup can pull off one more big bat (hopefully Wells) via the trade route without giving up too much off this coming year's roster to keep us from being competitive.

[hostros7]

The amount of counterfactual information that has become factual for that Astros team to step onto the field in 2007 makes me feel more than a little uncomfortable.  I agree in theory though.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Sosa > Soriano (in their peak years) = Cubs not learning their lesson...

[jaklewein]

Quote:
The amount of counterfactual information that has become factual for that Astros team to step onto the field in 2007 makes me feel more than a little uncomfortable.  I agree in theory though.

Yeah, I realize that alot of things have to happen for such a team to be put on a field by the Astros in '07.  The point that I was trying to make was I didn't panic after Soriano was taken off the market, and...that I won't panic if and when Lee is gone either.  There will still be plenty of options out there.  Again, I feel Huff is key however...as he's one of those lower tier guys that I feel will be productive, and one that we should have a pretty darn good chance at landing.  We get him and that gives the Pup some flexibility going forward.

[CarolinaStro]

The other problem with Lee & Soriano for Purpura is that I get the feeling that he feels pressure to add a "bigtime" RBI guy for Andy and Roger.  No Lee = No Pettitte.  No Pettitte = No Roger.  No Pettitte/Roger = No chance in 07.  Not saying this is true but that Purpura feels hostage to it and might make an otherwise insane move somewhat sane.  Even if Purpura doesnt feel hostage then I bet the Grocer does.  

Unless Baltimore or Philly do something really insane, I think this is why Lee is signed.

[jaklewein]

Quote:
The other problem with Lee & Soriano for Purpura is that I get the feeling that he feels pressure to add a "bigtime" RBI guy for Andy and Roger.  No Lee = No Pettitte.  No Pettitte = No Roger.  No Pettitte/Roger = No chance in 07.  Not saying this is true but that Purpura feels hostage to it and might make an otherwise insane move somewhat sane.  Even if Purpura doesnt feel hostage then I bet the Grocer does.  

Unless Baltimore or Philly do something really insane, I think this is why Lee is signed.

Point well taken, but there's always the possibility that a bat can be added via trade as well.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
The other problem with Lee & Soriano for Purpura is that I get the feeling that he feels pressure to add a "bigtime" RBI guy for Andy and Roger.  No Lee = No Pettitte.  No Pettitte = No Roger.  No Pettitte/Roger = No chance in 07.  Not saying this is true but that Purpura feels hostage to it and might make an otherwise insane move somewhat sane.  Even if Purpura doesnt feel hostage then I bet the Grocer does.  

Unless Baltimore or Philly do something really insane, I think this is why Lee is signed.

Why/where do you get that impression about Purpura?

[L.I. Bill]

Quote:
I remember a few years ago, someone had said that not one player had ever lived out a more-than-four-year contract in MLB history or something.  Was wondering if that was still true.

Not sure that it ever was true, and several have recently finished 5+ year deals:
- Piazza completed a 7 year deal in Queens
- Mussina just finished 6 in the Bronx
- Pedro got through 5 in Boston

A couple other contracts are still ongoing but have at least reached the 5-year mark with the player still in the city that signed him:
Jeter & Giambi in NYC, Griffey in Cincy, Helton in Denver, Manny in Boston

On the other side of the coin are those recent ones that didn't make it:
ARod w/Texas, Thome in Philly, CH Park in Texas, Hampton w/Colo, Mo Vaughn w/Anaheim ... and I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

[JimR]

Purpura will not feel any pressure except for doing the best for the Astros within team policy. he will not panic, and he will not do something stupid, imo.

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:

Quote:
The other problem with Lee & Soriano for Purpura is that I get the feeling that he feels pressure to add a "bigtime" RBI guy for Andy and Roger.  No Lee = No Pettitte.  No Pettitte = No Roger.  No Pettitte/Roger = No chance in 07.  Not saying this is true but that Purpura feels hostage to it and might make an otherwise insane move somewhat sane.  Even if Purpura doesnt feel hostage then I bet the Grocer does.  

Unless Baltimore or Philly do something really insane, I think this is why Lee is signed.

Point well taken, but there's always the possibility that a bat can be added via trade as well.

Yea and the right trade would be the best route probably.  However, the right trade probably doesnt exist without significantly harming the bullpen and/or the future rotation.  It is my hope that through some miracle Purp announces some trade out of the blue involving a corner OFer or 3Bman for Burke and Buchholz. But then reality sets in and MoBerg is batting 4th next year and we are all bitching about putting our trust in Scott (ala Lane).

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:

Quote:
The other problem with Lee & Soriano for Purpura is that I get the feeling that he feels pressure to add a "bigtime" RBI guy for Andy and Roger.  No Lee = No Pettitte.  No Pettitte = No Roger.  No Pettitte/Roger = No chance in 07.  Not saying this is true but that Purpura feels hostage to it and might make an otherwise insane move somewhat sane.  Even if Purpura doesnt feel hostage then I bet the Grocer does.  

Unless Baltimore or Philly do something really insane, I think this is why Lee is signed.

Why/where do you get that impression about Purpura?

Nowhere.  Just a guess based on human nature.  Purp has made no major moves during his regime and is saying the Stros will be major players in FA.  Pettitte and Rajah are doing the lets wait and see what they do to improve the team number.  The Cubs just upped the ante.  The Cards just won the WS.  Its the perfect storm.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Nowhere.  Just a guess based on human nature.  Purp has made no major moves during his regime and is saying the Stros will be major players in FA.  Pettitte and Rajah are doing the lets wait and see what they do to improve the team number.  The Cubs just upped the ante.  The Cards just won the WS.  Its the perfect storm.

It has already been reported that Purpura said the Astros didn't make an offer of the magnitude that the Cubs made to Soriano. Purpura has been rather conservative in his first two offseasons, but you're interpreting that as a reason why he might do something rash now. That seems incongruous.

[pravata]

Quote:
Purpura will not feel any pressure except for doing the best for the Astros within team policy. he will not panic, and he will not do something stupid, imo.

Despite this type of talk

"He has been on the job a little more than two years, and Astros general manager Tim Purpura has yet to make the kind of move that would bowl over Astros fans."

from the media and fans, his employer praises his patience

"Tim showed great patience the past two years," McLane said. "Many wanted us to trade away our top players but we didn't. One of Tim's greatest strengths is his patience."

Purpura says he doesn't give criticism from fans and media much thought,

"You want to beat your competition, and that's the other clubs," Purpura said. "This is where the people in the front office compete. You could call it pressure, but to me it's more about working to make your club better than other clubs."

and thinks that he has as much chance at understanding heart surgery as his critics have of understanding what he does, The Link

But people have forgotten that on many occasions Gerry Hunsicker observed that Bagwell's contract limited the types of things he could do with the team.  Nor do they themselves remember criticizing Bagwell's large contract, being too busy clamouring for the Astros to hurry up and sign Carlos Lee for 6 years 100+ millions.

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:
Purpura will not feel any pressure except for doing the best for the Astros within team policy. he will not panic, and he will not do something stupid, imo.

Purpura has shown restraint in the past and all things being equal wouldnt do something stupid.  However his or the Grocer's definition of stupid may have changed the last couple of days.

[BudGirl]

Quote:

Quote:
Purpura will not feel any pressure except for doing the best for the Astros within team policy. he will not panic, and he will not do something stupid, imo.

Purpura has shown restraint in the past and all things being equal wouldnt do something stupid.  However his or the Grocer's definition of stupid may have changed the last couple of days.

What happened over the last couple of days to change their definition of stupid?  Personally, I don't think Soriano is worth that money.

I agree with Alkie in that right now this team needs pitching.  They have one starting pitcher signed.  ONE.  Oswalt.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:

Quote:
Purpura will not feel any pressure except for doing the best for the Astros within team policy. he will not panic, and he will not do something stupid, imo.

Purpura has shown restraint in the past and all things being equal wouldnt do something stupid.  However his or the Grocer's definition of stupid may have changed the last couple of days.

I'd be surprised if it did. Purpura's reaction to the Soriano deal seemed measured and un-panicked to me:

Quote:
"If it's to the numbers that are being reported, we've certainly not been involved to that level," Purpura said of the Soriano reports. "We've certainly been involved to a high level. But to the terms and the dollars (reported for Soriano in Chicago), we haven't been involved that high."

By the way, being a player in the free-agent market means, to me, making offers at free agents. It doesn't necessarily mean paying whatever they ask.

[JimR]

fucking idiotic

[Arky Vaughan]

Also, I think the knock on Purpura that he hasn't made any big deals during his tenure is silly. The Astros in March 2005 signed  Berkman through 2011 for $14.2 million per and in August 2006 signed Oswalt through 2011 for $14.6 million per.  Those signings in terms of player quality and value will beat anything any general manager signs this offseason.

[Froback]

I like that Tim has stuck to his guns in these situations, but with so many GMs and owners being fucking idiots with salary with some of these players, it makes me wonder what Tim can get, even via a trade.

But I am thinking more and more, pitching is something to get via FA this year while getting a bat looks wiser to look trade first.  Talk about odd market!

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:
Also, I think the knock on Purpura that he hasn't made any big deals during his tenure is silly. The Astros in March 2005 signed  Berkman through 2011 for $14.2 million per and in August 2006 signed Oswalt through 2011 for $14.6 million per.  Those signings in terms of player quality and value will beat anything any general manager signs this offseason.

I wasnt knocking Purpura.  The only major FA he has chased in his tenure was Beltran and he was worth it.  All other nonmoves have been for most part validated.

[utastro]

Quote:
They have one starting pitcher signed.  ONE.  Oswalt.

Wait a minute. What about Eny Cabreja I mean Wandy Rodriguez?

[jaklewein]

Quote:

Quote:
They have one starting pitcher signed.  ONE.  Oswalt.

Wait a minute. What about Eny Cabreja I mean Wandy Rodriguez?

\\

Dude, mentioning Wandy as a potential part of the rotation isn't even funny anymore.  Come on people...layoff the Wandy jokes.