Shit. Anyone Got the News On?

[Alkie]

CNN.com is reporting someone just flew a plane into a fucking building in NYC.

It's October 11th.

Anyone have any details?

[Froback]

This is the header on ABCnews.com

NEW YORK CITY'S WABC-TV REPORTS GENERAL AVIATION AIRCRAFT CRASHES INTO APARTMENT BUILDING ON UPPER EAST SIDE OF MANHATTAN

[Andyzipp]

FOXNEWS.com reports that the pilot and crew were Dems.

[Alkie]

Oh, so as far as they're concerned, no one was hurt?

[pravata]

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CNN.com is reporting someone just flew a plane into a fucking building in NYC.

It's October 11th.

Anyone have any details?

small plane, apartment bldg, flames
The Link

[Alkie]

Looks like NY may be under attack by Channel 4 News.

They'll stop at nothing.

[pravata]

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Looks like NY may be under attack by Channel 4 News.

They'll stop at nothing.

Picture The Link

[Bench]

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It's October 11th.

Is that like the lunar calendar's equivalent to September 11th or should I plan on avoiding buildings in NYC on November 11, 2011?

[HPFRic]

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from CBS News.com: There's no word yet on any deaths or injuries.

it kind of feels like the first draft probably read,  "There's no word yet on any deaths or injuries... but our fingers remain crossed." doesn't it?

[Fredia]

i was listenting to fox news on the radio and it said did not seem terror related so take it for what it is worth. scary stuff either way

[Phil_in_CS]

Small plane; those on it unknown but dead. NTSB doesn't know the cause; 4 alarm fire.

NYFD working on the fire and evacuation.

[toddthebod]

The news here also says that it appears not to be terror related.  No one seems to be making a big deal of it.  If there was a hint that it was an act of terrorism, we would have been evacutated.

[Alkie]

WHOA.

My wife says someone from SI is saying Corey Lidle may have been on the plane.

Fucking weird.

[JimR]

i just heard that too.

[toddthebod]

ESPN news is now reporting this information.  FAA has confirmed that the plane was registered to Lidle. The only question is whether Lidle was on board.

[Alkie]

CNN reporting he was piloting that plane.

Wow.

[Phil_in_CS]

That's not on the web site as of 3:51, but who knows. That's not something you'd print until you have multiple sources confirming.

[Alkie]

 Is now. Corey Lidle dead.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Is now. Corey Lidle dead.  

What a bizarre story.

[Phil_in_CS]

I just saw that on CNN in our confrence room. They were quoting Joe Torre saying it was Lidle's plane.

[toddthebod]

Torre probably cut the fuel line himself after Lidle threw Torre under the bus for "not being prepared."

[Nate in IA]

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Is now. Corey Lidle dead.  

What a bizarre story.

I think you'll find when the NTSB gets done with it's investigation is that it's not that bizarre at all but rather simply one of pilot error.  Reports were that the plane had filed VFR but it was an overcast day in NY and that the plane came out of the clouds and hit the building.  It's entirely possible that this is closer to JFK Jr than anything else (spatial disorientation).  Pure speculation at this point though.

[Lefty]

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Fucking weird.

Maybe HH can calculate the odds of a MLB player dying in a planecrash a day(s) after yall were discussing same.

Terrible story.  Prayers to his family & to those of all others involved.

[CrawfordBoxes]

Sad event. That was incredible bizzare.

[Alkie]

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Fucking weird.

Maybe HH can calculate the odds of a MLB player dying in a planecrash a day(s) after yall were discussing same.

I wasn't going to say anything, but yeah, pretty bizarre, no?

[Alkie]

Quote from the NTSB (or someone who used to work there I think) was basically "how the hell did he get that close to a building in Manhattan without someone knowing about it first??"

Good to see our defenses have improved.

[pravata]

witnesses said the craft was flying erratically. Initial reports indicate that Lidle owns the Cirrus SR20, which took off from New Jersey's Teterboro Airport at about 2:30 p.m., and that he was the only person aboard the plane. His passport was found on the street.
 NYNewsday

[T. J.]

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Quote from the NTSB (or someone who used to work there I think) was basically "how the hell did he get that close to a building in Manhattan without someone knowing about it first??"

Good to see our defenses have improved.

Aw c'mon.  Anytime you fly into Houston Hobby, look out the left side and there are the downtown buildings nearly within arms reach.  No "defenses" are going to do anything about that.

[Alkie]

Yes, but it could be said that Houston wasn't the city that was attacked by jets.

[Phil_in_CS]

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Torre probably cut the fuel line himself after Lidle threw Torre under the bus for "not being prepared."

Hard to decide if that more funny than awful, or more awful than funny.

I think funny wins out.

[HPFRic]

thank god - john kruk and steve phillips are here to help us make sense of it all.

[JimR]

inappropriate is the word that came to me.

[MusicMan]

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inappropriate is the word that came to me.

I think inappropriate is too mild a word.

You're better than that, todd.

[Alkie]

How is this for coincidence.

The last player to die in a one-man plane crash, of course, was Yankee Thurman Munson.  The guy who gave the eulogy at Munson's funeral?  Lou Piniella, who will be calling the ALCS tonight, which Lidle would have been playing in (and not in the air) if the Yankees had won the ALDS.

[SoonerJim]

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Is now. Corey Lidle dead.  

What a bizarre story.

I think you'll find when the NTSB gets done with it's investigation is that it's not that bizarre at all but rather simply one of pilot error.  Reports were that the plane had filed VFR but it was an overcast day in NY and that the plane came out of the clouds and hit the building.  It's entirely possible that this is closer to JFK Jr than anything else (spatial disorientation).  Pure speculation at this point though.

Sad. You'd think Steinbrenner would now put no fly clauses in his player contracts. There was apparently someone else on the plane.

[toddthebod]

Mayor Bloomberg just said that two people died, the pilot and his instructor.  No names.  Nobody in the building died.  Apparently it was a "sight-seeing" flight.  If this is the case, then the pilot, whether it was Lidle or anyone else, died of stupidity.  The weather here sucks.  Why anyone would want to fly a small plane in this weather is beyond me.  And I can't believe that an instructor would allow a novice pilot to fly in this weather.

[Nate in IA]

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Mayor Bloomberg just said that two people died, the pilot and his instructor.  No names.  Nobody in the building died.  Apparently it was a "sight-seeing" flight.  If this is the case, then the pilot, whether it was Lidle or anyone else, died of stupidity.  The weather here sucks.  Why anyone would want to fly a small plane in this weather is beyond me.  And I can't believe that an instructor would allow a novice pilot to fly in this weather.

It's highly likely (if there were two people on board) that this was an IFR training flight.  Often times it is advantageous to fly in real IMC instead of under the hood because that's what's real.  That said, there's no way they'd be training over Manhattan (though there's always room for stupidity).  There's plenty of open space west of Teterboro.

I amend my thoughts.   They could have been shooting IFR approaches into La Guardia and simply got too low on the glideslope...

[astrojo]

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Mayor Bloomberg just said that two people died, the pilot and his instructor.  No names.  Nobody in the building died.  Apparently it was a "sight-seeing" flight.  If this is the case, then the pilot, whether it was Lidle or anyone else, died of stupidity.  The weather here sucks.  Why anyone would want to fly a small plane in this weather is beyond me.  And I can't believe that an instructor would allow a novice pilot to fly in this weather.

I thought he also said a man an woman in one apartment were killed.  The apartment where the engine was found.

[toddthebod]

No.  He said that a couple of people in the building were treated, but the only ones who died were in the plane.

[strosrays]

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How is this for coincidence.

The last player to die in a one-man plane crash, of course, was Yankee Thurman Munson.  The guy who gave the eulogy at Munson's funeral?  Lou Piniella, who will be calling the ALCS tonight, which Lidle would have been playing in (and not in the air) if the Yankees had won the ALDS.

Peterson's quote was nice and thoughtful.

I wonder what his teammates over the years are thinking now?  The ones who ostracized him and wouldn't speak to him in the clubhouse and on road trips (or the ones who tried to kick his ass when he was in TB) because he was a 'scab.'


After being traded by the Phillies in July 2006 at the trade deadline Lidle called out his former team. "On the days I'm pitching, it's almost a coin flip as to know if the guys behind me are going to be there to play 100 percent." He noted he was joining a Yankees team that expects to win all the time.

"That's why I'm most excited about it," Lidle said. "Sometimes I felt I got caught up kind of going into the clubhouse nonchalantly sometimes, because all of the other guys in the clubhouse didn't go there with one goal in mind."

In response former teammate Arthur Rhodes said, "He is a scab. When he started, he would go 5 1/3 innings and (the bullpen) would have to win the game for him. The only thing Cory Lidle wants to do is fly around in his airplane and gamble. He doesn't have a work ethic. After every start, he didn't run or lift weights. He would sit in the clubhouse and eat ice cream. ... He shouldn't say that, he shouldn't say anything like that because he is a scab. He crossed the line when guys like me, Flash (Tom Gordon) and (Mike) Lieberthal were playing. He is a replacement player."

 The Link



It began in jest, as these things often do. A bunch of Rays on a bus, drinking beer, razzing the younger guys. Cory Lidle would have been laughing with the rest if he did not fear what was about to come.

A voice had been shouting his name -- "What about Lidle?" -- and soon one of the veterans had a microphone in his hand and Lidle in his sight.

"Tell me it's not true," the player shouted at Lidle. "Tell me you're not a scab."

It grew uglier. Insults mixed with profanities. Seemingly 24 players turned on one. Explaining himself only would have made it worse. So Lidle picked the next-best option. He challenged the loudest and drunkest to fight.

 The Link

[astrojo]

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No.  He said that a couple of people in the building were treated, but the only ones who died were in the plane.

you're right...i just listened again on tivo and he said that couple ran out, then he started talking about the bodies in the street from the plane and no bodies in the building. i was only half listening and misunderstood.

[tophfar]

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It's highly likely (if there were two people on board) that this was an IFR training flight.  Often times it is advantageous to fly in real IMC instead of under the hood because that's what's real.  That said, there's no way they'd be training over Manhattan (though there's always room for stupidity).  There's plenty of open space west of Teterboro.

I amend my thoughts.   They could have been shooting IFR approaches into La Guardia and simply got too low on the glideslope...

anyone want to translate this into stupid people english?

[Nate in IA]

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It's highly likely (if there were two people on board) that this was an IFR training flight.  Often times it is advantageous to fly in real IMC instead of under the hood because that's what's real.  That said, there's no way they'd be training over Manhattan (though there's always room for stupidity).  There's plenty of open space west of Teterboro.

I amend my thoughts.   They could have been shooting IFR approaches into La Guardia and simply got too low on the glideslope...

anyone want to translate this into stupid people english?

Sorry... IFR is Instrument Flight Rules and are basically what you think -- rules for how to fly purely on instruments without looking out the window.  The phrase "shooting an IFR approach" refers to those specific rules which tell you how to set up for landing when you're flying by IFR.  In order to accomplish this, the pilot needs to be at a certain speed and altitude when they are a certain distance from the airport.  They then set the plane up to descend at a certain rate towards the runway so that when they get close enough to the runway, they can see the landing lights.

My speculation is that they were practicing these procedures with La Guardia as the target airport.  I'm not entirely sure which set of rules an IFR training flight is flown under.  I'm just a student pilot so I'll have to ask my pilot friends.  I say this because reports are that the flight was under VFR and thus not talking to any controllers.  However, if they were shooting approaches, they'd definitely be in radio contact.

[Nate in IA]

So, I've been perusing some stories trying to tease any sort of useful information out of this mess and the most credible thing I saw was that a mayday call was put in claiming fuel problems.  This may just be one of those tragedies that happens from time to time in aviation when the plane quits and the pilot failed to take the proper action which could have saved his life.

[austro]

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So, I've been perusing some stories trying to tease any sort of useful information out of this mess and the most credible thing I saw was that a mayday call was put in claiming fuel problems.  This may just be one of those tragedies that happens from time to time in aviation when the plane quits and the pilot failed to take the proper action which could have saved his life.

Wouldn't somebody on an IFR flight have filed a flight plan?  There was apparently no flight plan in this case.

[Limey]

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Wouldn't somebody on an IFR flight have filed a flight plan?  There was apparently no flight plan in this case.

Not necessarily.  IFR and VFR are more akin to qualifications than rules.  If you're in reduced visibility conditions (less than 1,000m in any direction, IIRC) you're operating under Instrument Flight Rules and better have the necessary rating if doing so by choice.  Filing a flight plan is a whole nother set of rules.

Flying is actually easy (unless something goes wrong like in this case).  Easier than driving a car because there's no lanes or other air users within banging distance and the aircraft is inherently stable.  It's all the navigation, weather and radio shit that takes time to learn.

Except for landing, of course.  That's always a little interesting.  If it gets to the point where you find it isn't interesting, you have a serious chance of ending up like Steve Austin.

[Phil_in_CS]

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Fucking weird.

Maybe HH can calculate the odds of a MLB player dying in a planecrash a day(s) after yall were discussing same.

Terrible story.  Prayers to his family & to those of all others involved.

add in the odds a Mets coach lived in the apartment he hit....  The Link

[Nate in IA]

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So, I've been perusing some stories trying to tease any sort of useful information out of this mess and the most credible thing I saw was that a mayday call was put in claiming fuel problems.  This may just be one of those tragedies that happens from time to time in aviation when the plane quits and the pilot failed to take the proper action which could have saved his life.

Wouldn't somebody on an IFR flight have filed a flight plan?  There was apparently no flight plan in this case.

Articles today on aviation sites point out that my speculation was wrong.  They were simply out on a sightseeing tour of the VFR areas of NY.  One of the quirks of that area is apparently that there is a VFR corridor up the East River but it basically turns into a box canyon with a top.  

More wild speculation on my part:  The SR20 is a high technology airplane with two massive LCD panels for the pilot interface and Garmin GPS systems down the center stack.  They might have gotten into this box canyon, realized it, turned around, looked down to the panel to see something and looked a little too long.  If there were fuel issues (as some reports have mentioned) that just adds to the workload in the cockpit.  Perhaps they weren't looking out the window enough and when they did, found themselves staring at a building.  That would explain why they didn't pull the parachute (Cirrus planes have a built-in parachute for emergencies).

On a completely different note, my pilot friend said that IFR training flights are generally conductioned under VFR.

[geezerdonk]

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My speculation is that they were practicing these procedures with La Guardia as the target airport.

I've never flown into LaGuardia (except as a commercial passenger) so I don't know for sure, but it is highly unlikely that a light general aviation aircraft would be permitted a practice instrument approach. You just don't go out and shoot touch and goes at a facility like LaGuardia.

[Limey]

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I've never flown into LaGuardia (except as a commercial passenger) so I don't know for sure, but it is highly unlikely that a light general aviation aircraft would be permitted a practice instrument approach. You just don't go out and shoot touch and goes at a facility like LaGuardia.

Landing fees would make this cost prohibitive.

[Limey]

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Articles today on aviation sites point out that my speculation was wrong.  They were simply out on a sightseeing tour of the VFR areas of NY.  One of the quirks of that area is apparently that there is a VFR corridor up the East River but it basically turns into a box canyon with a top.

The "top" would be the restricted airspace for a nearby commercial airport.

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More wild speculation on my part:  The SR20 is a high technology airplane with two massive LCD panels for the pilot interface and Garmin GPS systems down the center stack.  They might have gotten into this box canyon, realized it, turned around, looked down to the panel to see something and looked a little too long.  If there were fuel issues (as some reports have mentioned) that just adds to the workload in the cockpit.  Perhaps they weren't looking out the window enough and when they did, found themselves staring at a building.  That would explain why they didn't pull the parachute (Cirrus planes have a built-in parachute for emergencies).

Any kind of distraction is possible.  But scanning the outside is drummed into you from the first moment of flight training and it becomes second nature to raise your eyes every few seconds.

Also, you should be about 1,000ft higher than the highest obstruction within a reasonable distance - and I'm talking miles here.  If you crash into something, even if flying completely blind, you've fucked up horribly.

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On a completely different note, my pilot friend said that IFR training flights are generally conductioned under VFR.

Correct.  The pilot is hooded (imagine a ridiculously extended visor that allows you to see your instruments and nothing else) while the instructor can see what's going on.

I did have an impromptu IFR session once, when the weather closed in on us on a land-away, so we IFR'd all the way back.  I got a radar approach out of it too, which was amazing.  It's very stressful going purely on the instructions from the voice in your ear, but then you drop below the clouds and find yourself perfectly lined up on the runway threshold.

[Ty in Tampa]

Watching CNN yesterday, Miles O'Brien - CNN reporter and private pilot - said that the ceiling at the time of the crash was under 1,800 ft. VFR, but like he said, he wouldn't recommend an amateur pilot fly in Manhattan that day.

[Nate in IA]

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Also, you should be about 1,000ft higher than the highest obstruction within a reasonable distance - and I'm talking miles here.  If you crash into something, even if flying completely blind, you've fucked up horribly.

Exactly right.  I wonder if we'll ever get a glimpse at the chain of events that led to this crash because it's always a rather lengthy chain.  The first link may have been them taking off at all into a day with such low ceilings.

[MusicMan]

 This gave me some serious chills.

[Limey]

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Exactly right.  I wonder if we'll ever get a glimpse at the chain of events that led to this crash because it's always a rather lengthy chain.  The first link may have been them taking off at all into a day with such low ceilings.

Bingo!  I once had to turn back on a solo training flight because my ceiling was too low.  There was a 900' radio tower nearby, so I needed at least a 2,000' ceiling.  I got up there and had 1,800' which quickly dropped to 1,500'.  I turned around and put back in.

Probably one of the smartest decisions I've ever made.  It wasn't that easy, either.  I was a trainee pilot on a military flight training course, and the competitive "spirit" in the class was pretty strong.  Bravado (more like hubris) would've had me press on, hoping for the weather to improve or "comfortable" that I still had 600' separation.  Turns out I would've been on the end of a severe bollocking had I not turned back.  Rightly so.