Author Topic: Hickey fired...  (Read 9554 times)

JGrave

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Hickey fired...
« on: October 04, 2006, 03:04:22 pm »
heard on the radio.

610 to be exact.  Breaking news.
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

Golden Sombrero

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 03:07:21 pm »
Dang, pitching wasn't exactly the problem.  Good luck Jim, wherever you end up in this crazy mixed-up world.
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Lefty

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 03:10:32 pm »
Who saw *that* coming?
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Holly

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 03:12:55 pm »
Not me. I liked listening to him speak.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 03:13:13 pm »
Quote:

Who saw *that* coming?




Well, he couldn't fix Lidge. If he just listened to local radio, he would have figured out what was wrong, but he was too stubborn or ignorant or both. He deserves to be fired.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2006, 03:14:21 pm »
wonder if this is the first of many to come.,,and who do you think will go
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2006, 03:24:34 pm »
Ok, so this brings up the question that I always ask when this happens: what IS the job of the pitching coach?  More to the point, what is his responsibility?  What is he accountable for?

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2006, 03:30:09 pm »
Quote:

Well, he couldn't fix Lidge. If he just listened to local radio, he would have figured out what was wrong, but he was too stubborn or ignorant or both. He deserves to be fired.



I was trying to think of any problems with pitching, and the only one of any note I could think of was Lidge.  Maybe Wandy's continued suckitude, but that's only notable because Rocket didn't come on board until June and Backe was gone from week one.  Other than that, the pitching was as good as could be expected from the kids, and as good or better than expected from the vets.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2006, 03:34:03 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Well, he couldn't fix Lidge. If he just listened to local radio, he would have figured out what was wrong, but he was too stubborn or ignorant or both. He deserves to be fired.



I was trying to think of any problems with pitching, and the only one of any note I could think of was Lidge.  Maybe Wandy's continued suckitude, but that's only notable because Rocket didn't come on board until June and Backe was gone from week one.  Other than that, the pitching was as good as could be expected from the kids, and as good or better than expected from the vets.





The bullpen was very inconsistent the first half of the season and then Lidge continued to struggle when everyone else seemed to find their groove.  And the rookie starters were not dependable.  Is this the pitching coach's fault?  Somebody has to be the scapegoat.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2006, 03:35:50 pm »
Quote:

Ok, so this brings up the question that I always ask when this happens: what IS the job of the pitching coach?  More to the point, what is his responsibility?  What is he accountable for?




Apparently accountable for not making the playoffs with three Cy Young caliber type starters.  Not playing the right mind games with Lidge probably his fault too.  Unfortunately, EVERY organization, athletic or not, has to have a scape goat when there is failure.  No matter how you slice it, this year was a failure.  Hopefully Hickey lands on his feet, seems like a good guy...

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2006, 03:43:56 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so this brings up the question that I always ask when this happens: what IS the job of the pitching coach?  More to the point, what is his responsibility?  What is he accountable for?




Apparently accountable for not making the playoffs with three Cy Young caliber type starters.  Not playing the right mind games with Lidge probably his fault too.  Unfortunately, EVERY organization, athletic or not, has to have a scape goat when there is failure.  No matter how you slice it, this year was a failure.  Hopefully Hickey lands on his feet, seems like a good guy...





The Lidge effect wouldn't have been nearly as costly if Garner had removed him from the closer role when it was clear he was not getting it done, instead of stubbornly sending him out there for 3/4 of the season in the 9th, no matter how he looked.
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Limey

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2006, 03:44:41 pm »
Quote:

Is this the pitching coach's fault?



The bullpen was weakened by the injury to Backe which meant that there were 3 rookies (or near-rookies) in the rotation.  Also Miller's injury and Lidge's stuff being untrustworthy did some damage.  I don't think that Hickey chose the personnel, he just worked with what he had.

The pitching at season's end was much better than during most of the season, with only Clemens as a notable addition.  Hickey ought to get credit for that.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2006, 03:57:50 pm »
Anyone who blames Hickey for the pitching failures is dense.  How often did we hear Garner point out a specific mechanics issue as the root cause every time a pitcher faultered.  Do you wonder, just maybe, did Garner talk to Hickey as part of formulating that assessment?  Hmmm... I duh know...

The fact that Lidge denied his problem, as demonstrated by his insistance that he was "tipping pitches" or that it was his wind up causing his failure (as he insisted early on for the period in which he briefly thru from the stretch only), should be highlighted as the main cause of his failure this season.  

Does Hickey have some responsibility to communicate with Lidge, in that circumstance?  Absolutely.  However, it's hardly Hickey's failure alone.  As a matter of opinion, I'd say the bulk of that failure falls on Lidge and the others who struggled.  These guys aren't new to pitching.  Odds are they've done it for most of their life.  That brings us back to the old saying "You can't fire players".  It's a shame.  I didn't like the Gaetti firing nor do I care for this one.  I hope they make the same offer to Hickey as they did to Gaetti, giving him the option of staying within the organization in another role/level.  

By the way, I've checked Astros.com, the Chronicle, and even ESPN.  No one has a story or news update reporting this.  Does anyone know this as fact?  If so, please provide a link.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2006, 03:58:31 pm »
Quote:

Ok, so this brings up the question that I always ask when this happens: what IS the job of the pitching coach?  More to the point, what is his responsibility?  What is he accountable for?




In-game dugout interviews during the playoffs.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2006, 04:00:45 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so this brings up the question that I always ask when this happens: what IS the job of the pitching coach?  More to the point, what is his responsibility?  What is he accountable for?




In-game dugout interviews during the playoffs.





Then why was he fired?

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2006, 04:07:36 pm »
Quote:

Then why was he fired?



Attitude, work ethic, working relationship with management/Garner, working relationship with young pitchers or vets, techniques (similar to Purp's statement regarding Berry's use of technology vs. Gaetti's)?

How the hell should we know?
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JGrave

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2006, 04:08:09 pm »
Quote:


By the way, I've checked Astros.com, the Chronicle, and even ESPN.  No one has a story or news update reporting this.  Does anyone know this as fact?  If so, please provide a link.





The Link
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

astrojo

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2006, 04:10:18 pm »
Quote:


By the way, I've checked Astros.com, the Chronicle, and even ESPN.  No one has a story or news update reporting this.  Does anyone know this as fact?  If so, please provide a link.





The Link

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2006, 04:11:00 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


By the way, I've checked Astros.com, the Chronicle, and even ESPN.  No one has a story or news update reporting this.  Does anyone know this as fact?  If so, please provide a link.





The Link





Arghh! You should warn us or something when you link to there.

By the way, now that the Rangers fired Showalter, are they the odds on favorite to win the World Series next year?
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Alkie

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2006, 04:11:41 pm »
You pigfucker.  You just made me read a Justice blog.

Garner is an AVERAGE manager?  He learned from DUSTY BAKER???  Dusty "No Rings As a Manager" Baker??

MikeyBoy

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2006, 04:12:36 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


By the way, I've checked Astros.com, the Chronicle, and even ESPN.  No one has a story or news update reporting this.  Does anyone know this as fact?  If so, please provide a link.





The Link





In the future, please attach a warning before linking to these types of sites. (If I actually used those emoticon things, there would be a puking one right here) TIA.
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Alkie

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2006, 04:13:13 pm »
Quote:

By the way, now that the Rangers fired Showalter, are they the odds on favorite to win the World Series next year?




That's funny, that was the first thing I said when I saw it on the ticker.

You'd think more clubs would hire Showalter just to fire him so they could win something.

I wonder what the deal is with Buck.  He must be an amazing asshole to play for, so much that the players are just SO excited to see him go, they can't help but win.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2006, 04:16:52 pm »
It is what it is.

I heard it on 610 straight out of David What's-his-name's mouth.  M.T. wanted a link.  He got one.
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

Alkie

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2006, 04:18:19 pm »
No, I'm sorry.

What you just linked us to is worse than goatse.cx

JGrave

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2006, 04:19:57 pm »
Quote:

No, I'm sorry.

What you just linked us to is worse than goatse.cx





For the tittie-babies:

The Link
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

Limey

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2006, 04:20:09 pm »
Quote:

You'd think more clubs would hire Showalter just to fire him so they could win something.

I wonder what the deal is with Buck.  He must be an amazing asshole to play for, so much that the players are just SO excited to see him go, they can't help but win.




How long do they have to keep him?  It's easy to think that you can take two years of Showalter as a trade-off to win the WS.  But by half way through year one...
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2006, 04:23:40 pm »
Quote:

You pigfucker.  You just made me read a Justice blog.

Garner is an AVERAGE manager?  He learned from DUSTY BAKER???  Dusty "No Rings As a Manager" Baker??





Umm, I am not sure I would call Garner a good manager yet.

Although it is hard to evaluate good managers vs bad ones, because alot depends on the situations.  Some managers are really good a building up a club with young players, but sucks with older more established types.  And some swing the other way.

Some are better at adapting, and I guess those are the ones you really look at as great managers.  In the current game, I can only think of two that really personify that.  And neither was very good early in their managing careers. (Torre and Cox).

But both managers were aided in their "greatness" by sizeable payrolls.  Cox is struggling a bit now as his payroll has been reduce severly.  I imagine Torre would as well should that ever happen (never going to with the Yankmes).

Just a thought.  But I have never seen anything from Garner to indicate he was anything special.... but then I am not privy to much behind the scenes stuff where most of the good ones do most of their work.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2006, 04:25:53 pm »
Quote:

It is what it is.

I heard it on 610 straight out of David What's-his-name's mouth.  M.T. wanted a link.  He got one.





Hey, I wasn't complaining.  All I could do is laugh when I got to the part calling Gar an average manager.  I laughed even harder when he questioned Garner's in game maneuvering.  Does anyone get to question or grade Pin-Wheel?  If so, where is that website.  I want to read that because I'm more inclined to agree with anyone pointing out what an idiotic, flip-flopping, hypocrite Pin-Wheel is than agree with any critique he offers.  Oh wait, that's what we do here!  Disregard.

As to the merits of the Hickey firing, I don't think that in anyway scape-goats Hickey.  It can be perceived that way, obviously.  However, what I wonder is whether this move indicates a strategic focus on the young pitchers, precluding any FA additions to the pitching staff, and Astros are going to promote one of the minor league pitching instructors because of previous work with the young'uns (notice I didn't call them "young guns").  IIRC, that's why Hickey got the gig when they fired Vern Ruhle or whoever preceded Hickey (I can't remember and am too lazy to look it up)
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2006, 04:31:36 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

It is what it is.

I heard it on 610 straight out of David What's-his-name's mouth.  M.T. wanted a link.  He got one.





Hey, I wasn't complaining.  All I could do is laugh when I got to the part calling Gar an average manager.  I laughed even harder when he questioned Garner's in game maneuvering.  Does anyone get to question or grade Pin-Wheel?  If so, where is that website.  I want to read that because I'm more inclined to agree with anyone pointing out what an idiotic, flip-flopping, hypocrite Pin-Wheel is than agree with any critique he offers.  Oh wait, that's what we do here!  Disregard.

As to the merits of the Hickey firing, I don't think that in anyway scape-goats Hickey.  It can be perceived that way, obviously.  However, what I wonder is whether this move indicates a strategic focus on the young pitchers, precluding any FA additions to the pitching staff, and Astros are going to promote one of the minor league pitching instructors because of previous work with the young'uns (notice I didn't call them "young guns").  IIRC, that's why Hickey got the gig when they fired Vern Ruhle or whoever preceded Hickey (I can't remember and am too lazy to look it up)





Hooten (I probably spelled it wrong.) was the previous pitching coach.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2006, 04:32:42 pm »
Happy Hooten, not Ruhle.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2006, 04:32:55 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It is what it is.

I heard it on 610 straight out of David What's-his-name's mouth.  M.T. wanted a link.  He got one.





Hey, I wasn't complaining.  All I could do is laugh when I got to the part calling Gar an average manager.  I laughed even harder when he questioned Garner's in game maneuvering.  Does anyone get to question or grade Pin-Wheel?  If so, where is that website.  I want to read that because I'm more inclined to agree with anyone pointing out what an idiotic, flip-flopping, hypocrite Pin-Wheel is than agree with any critique he offers.  Oh wait, that's what we do here!  Disregard.

As to the merits of the Hickey firing, I don't think that in anyway scape-goats Hickey.  It can be perceived that way, obviously.  However, what I wonder is whether this move indicates a strategic focus on the young pitchers, precluding any FA additions to the pitching staff, and Astros are going to promote one of the minor league pitching instructors because of previous work with the young'uns (notice I didn't call them "young guns").  IIRC, that's why Hickey got the gig when they fired Vern Ruhle or whoever preceded Hickey (I can't remember and am too lazy to look it up)




Hooten (I probably spelled it wrong.) was the previous pitching coach.




Thank you.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2006, 04:50:03 pm »
Hey, MYYYY link was clean and contained no SportsJustice.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2006, 04:57:20 pm »
Froback, you are FOS. Garner has demonstrated to anyone and to most everyone that he is a good manager. you don't count.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2006, 05:04:34 pm »
Quote:

Ok, so this brings up the question that I always ask when this happens: what IS the job of the pitching coach?  More to the point, what is his responsibility?  What is he accountable for?




Hickey would never put his hand on the pitcher's shoulder during mound conferences and that caused a lot of hurt feelings.  Also, he sat on Biggio's hat once.
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tophfar

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2006, 05:08:42 pm »
Quote:

Garner has demonstrated to anyone and to most everyone that he is a good manager.




you obvioulsy dont get the "privilage" of listening to 610 very often.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2006, 05:31:58 pm »
Quote:

Froback, you are FOS. Garner has demonstrated to anyone and to most everyone that he is a good manager. you don't count.



I hardly think any of us count.  But that isn't the point.

Managers have several responsibilities, most of which we never really see, except maybe the results of after the fact.

The only things we see are line-up setting and in-game managing.  He seems ok with all that.  So from what I can tell he is good there. (although I would like to see less platooning, pick a guy and ride him till he proves he sucks)

The things I cannot see is getting his team motivated and getting them through the rough patches that occur every season.  Does he get the most out of his players.  Do they seem to have confidence in his decisions, aka do they trust him.  Things like that are harder to qualify.  I think it still too early to tell in alot of these areas because he took over a team that was talent laden, and took them to the playoffs and lost in the NLCS.  The next year he took them to the World Series and the following year he just missed the playoffs.

But in each of the seasons he was manger for the full year they had huge issues early on that took amazing runs late to try to dig them selves out of holes.  One year they were able to pull it off and ride exceptional pitching to the Series, the next he couldn't get it done.

I blame alot of this on the players who underperformed for too long this year.  But some of the blame has to be laid on the manger who couldn't get them straightened out.  THAT is part of his job.  Garner couldn't do it.  Was that his fault (partly, but not 100%).

So don't think I don't know what I am talking about.  Just because I don't believe in him as strongly as you doesn't make me wrong nor does it mean I want him fired.  I just think he has more to prove to me to be considered a good manger.  He still has time, and opportunity to do that.

I have no desire to see him go elsewhere yet.  I like him, personally.  I don't think he sucks, that is for sure.  But I guess I have a higher standard for what I call a good manager.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2006, 05:46:19 pm »
Quote:

The pitching at season's end was much better than during most of the season, with only Clemens as a notable addition.  Hickey ought to get credit for that.




Just curious, but could Roger have helped focus the struggling pitchers, maybe help with some mechanical issues, or...something?

Ausmus seems to be half a pitching coach anyway. If the other reports of him cutting back on his playing time are accurate, would he be picking up a more vocal role in this area? Is he considering a future in this role? The Big 3 on the pitching staff sure seem to value his input.

Both of those ideas could have some influence without saying anything about Hickey's performance.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2006, 05:57:05 pm »
not a big shock, nor a terrific loss. clemens/pettitte/oswalt aside, i can't think of a single pitcher who got better after hickey's arrival, save for wheeler and qualls, and even they proved somewhat inconsistent.

meanwhile, the marks against him start to take on more and more weight: lidge regressed, backe was wildly inconsistent, no 4th or 5th starter ever emerged, the bullpen struggled for much of the first half, and a slew of supposedly promising youngsters looked anything but.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2006, 06:13:10 pm »
Quote:


I blame alot of this on the players who underperformed for too long this year.  But some of the blame has to be laid on the manger who couldn't get them straightened out.  THAT is part of his job.  Garner couldn't do it.  Was that his fault (partly, but not 100%).





i hear don baylor can work magic.  magic i say.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2006, 06:23:48 pm »
For what it's worth, Garner was just on 610 & gave the standard "fresh ideas", "different approach" as reason for the change.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2006, 06:39:56 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


I blame alot of this on the players who underperformed for too long this year.  But some of the blame has to be laid on the manger who couldn't get them straightened out.  THAT is part of his job.  Garner couldn't do it.  Was that his fault (partly, but not 100%).





i hear don baylor can work magic.  magic i say.





Everyone knows that a good coach "gets into his players' heads".  Mind games, that's what it's all about.  Yessiree BOB!  Why, I don't know why they just don't put one of them Psychologizers in as the manager.  That way, all them pitchers would trust their stuff, have their heads in the game, and (most importantly) trust their stuff.  

If Hickey were worth his salt, he could have prevented Buchholtz from hanging all those curve balls and issuing all those walks.  I mean, how hard would it have been for him to demonstrate how to finish off one of them curve ball pitches during his visit to the mound?  Can anyone tell me that?  Same for Hirsh and Albers.  Yep, this nonsense of "learning" and "developing" is for those freaks who don't see the real value of stuff trusting.  

I mean, the sheer talent of guys like Nieve, Hirsh, Buchholtz, Albers, and Sampson demands instant results.  After all, everyone knows that rookie pitchers either produce instantly or the pitching coach has managed to get in the way of their success.  It ain't rocket science.  And that's probably why Hickey failed.  In all those interviews he just seemed too smart for his own good.  Using all those college level, lots of syllable words and stuff.  Too big for his britches, I bet.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2006, 06:39:58 pm »
 
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meanwhile, the marks against him start to take on more and more weight: lidge regressed, backe was wildly inconsistent, no 4th or 5th starter ever emerged, the bullpen struggled for much of the first half, and a slew of supposedly promising youngsters looked anything but.  




Brandon Backe was never a control pitcher.  Post or pre-Hickey.

No one was going to turn Wandy or Buchholz into promising youngsters, or servicable 4th and 5th starters.  I want to see the pitching coach that can do that.

As far Lidge, who knows.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2006, 06:41:45 pm »
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No one was going to turn Wandy or Buchholz into promising youngsters, or servicable 4th and 5th starters.  I want to see the pitching coach that can do that.




I'll bet you good money that Buchholz is at least a "servicable 5th starter" next year.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2006, 06:57:53 pm »
Quote:

I'll bet you good money that Buchholz is at least a "servicable 5th starter" next year.  




I only wish there a betting window for such things.  People always act like he was/is some prospect, his last three ERAs at AAA are:

5.23
4.81
4.91

Hardly what I consider inspiring numbers.  It is possible he could become servicable as he has average stuff, and decent command, but his tendency to give in under pressure doesn't lead me to believe it is probable.  Based on his minor league ERAs, I suspect he has always had these problems in crucial situations.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2006, 07:09:00 pm »
he has a lot better than "average stuff." have you seen him pitch in person?
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2006, 07:25:09 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I blame alot of this on the players who underperformed for too long this year.  But some of the blame has to be laid on the manger who couldn't get them straightened out.  THAT is part of his job.  Garner couldn't do it.  Was that his fault (partly, but not 100%).





i hear don baylor can work magic.  magic i say.




Everyone knows that a good coach "gets into his players' heads".  Mind games, that's what it's all about.  Yessiree BOB!  Why, I don't know why they just don't put one of them Psychologizers in as the manager.  That way, all them pitchers would trust their stuff, have their heads in the game, and (most importantly) trust their stuff.  

If Hickey were worth his salt, he could have prevented Buchholtz from hanging all those curve balls and issuing all those walks.  I mean, how hard would it have been for him to demonstrate how to finish off one of them curve ball pitches during his visit to the mound?  Can anyone tell me that?  Same for Hirsh and Albers.  Yep, this nonsense of "learning" and "developing" is for those freaks who don't see the real value of stuff trusting.  

I mean, the sheer talent of guys like Nieve, Hirsh, Buchholtz, Albers, and Sampson demands instant results.  After all, everyone knows that rookie pitchers either produce instantly or the pitching coach has managed to get in the way of their success.  It ain't rocket science.  And that's probably why Hickey failed.  In all those interviews he just seemed too smart for his own good.  Using all those college level, lots of syllable words and stuff.  Too big for his britches, I bet.




Is it easy to find pitching coaches who are fluent in Spanish?

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2006, 07:30:59 pm »
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And that's probably why Hickey failed.




Is it necessarily the case that Hickey failed, by some measure that we can discern, for the Astros to have relieved him of his duties?

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2006, 07:33:29 pm »
No, I have not.  I'm not inclined to argue about his stuff, since it is a nebulous term.  My general definition of "stuff" is some combination of K rate and hit rate, as I feel that these are the best measures of preventing solid contact.  With that measure, his stuff is average.  I'm not privy to scouting reports, but I only recall reading about a plus curveball.

At any rate, I'll accept your conclusion that he has good stuff, but that just makes his lack of results all the more troubling.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2006, 09:45:53 am »
Quote:

Quote:

And that's probably why Hickey failed.




Is it necessarily the case that Hickey failed, by some measure that we can discern, for the Astros to have relieved him of his duties?




When I heard last night that Hickey wasn't being brought back, I assumed more that the club is assuming that life without Clemens and Pettitte starts in February and they were wanting a pitching coach who was more geared to actually "coaching" the younger pitchers the Astros are going to be depending on next season. Y'know after they don't sign Woody Williams again.

From what I've heard, Hickey stayed out of the way of Clemens, Oswalt and Pettitte, and that left him kind of deballed with some of the younger guys.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2006, 10:16:27 am »
you use some statistics to measure "stuff?"
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2006, 10:35:58 am »
Quote:

Is it easy to find pitching coaches who are fluent in Spanish?




If you're talking established candidates, my guess is, probably not.

Jim Colborn was, for one, when he was with LA.  I believe he learned some Japanese, too, and maybe Korean and even Mandarin.  That covers most of the bases.  (It's Spanish in Venezuela and Portuguese in Brazil, right?  I used to get those two mixed up... )

Whether any of this actually makes him a good pitching coach, I have no idea.

I have seen nothing to indicate it is the case here, but in the past ordering the firing a coach has also traditionally been a way for 'managemant' to take a shot at the manager without actually hitting him directly.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2006, 10:38:45 am »
Quote:

you use some statistics to measure "stuff?"




What, you haven't seen Baseball Prospectus' formula?

 
Quote:

A rough indicator of the pitcher's overall dominance, based on normalized strikeout rates, walk rates, home run rates, runs allowed, and innings per game. "10" is league average, while "0" is roughly replacement level. The formula is as follows: Stuff = EqK9 * 6 - 1.333 * (EqERA + PERA) - 3 * EqBB9 - 5 * EqHR9 -3 * MAX{6-IP/G),0}




 From the BP Glossary
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2006, 10:47:11 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

And that's probably why Hickey failed.




Is it necessarily the case that Hickey failed, by some measure that we can discern, for the Astros to have relieved him of his duties?




When I heard last night that Hickey wasn't being brought back, I assumed more that the club is assuming that life without Clemens and Pettitte starts in February and they were wanting a pitching coach who was more geared to actually "coaching" the younger pitchers the Astros are going to be depending on next season. Y'know after they don't sign Woody Williams again.

From what I've heard, Hickey stayed out of the way of Clemens, Oswalt and Pettitte, and that left him kind of deballed with some of the younger guys.




Thanks for the insight.  I'm not claiming to know anything as fact but this seems more likely to be accurate than any perceived failure on Hickey's part.  In the end, it's about the Astros plans for the pitching staff and whether Hickey, a guy who's more inline with a veteran staff I suspect, is the right person for that plan.  

It is interesting that, as you indicate, Hickey steared clear of Oswalt, Clemens, and Pettitte.  I recall past comments from Pettitte and Clemens that they look to the dugout for hand signals indicating their mechanics faultering.  Maybe that is something between Pettitte and Clemens only.  The other part that gets me is this follow up:

The Astros will interview candidates to fill the vacant coaching spot in the coming weeks. They'll look at people both within and outside of the organization. Director of pitching development Dewey Robinson will not be a candidate but will be a consultant during the search.

"He'll help to make the transition," Purpura said.


 full article .  Warning this is simply a revised version of the Garner Extension article on mlb.com.

I would think if the Astros are going with "youth" for the pitching staff that Robinson would be the ideal candidate.  Not that I have anything to base that on.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2006, 10:56:19 am »
Once again, I'm not sure what "stuff" actually is?  Is it the 96 mph fastball that batters pick up well, or the 93 one they don't.  Not to mention movement.  Is it a hard breaking slider that a pitcher can't command, and batters can pick up and don't respect it?  

So, when I use the term, I am referring more to refined abitilties, rather than raw abilities.  In other words, it is hard for me to say "that guy has great stuff" unless his pitches are actually doing the job.  

Mostly, I view the "job" of pitching as preventing solid contact.  Batters are looking to make solid contact, and pitchers are looking to prevent it.  If a pitcher demonstrates that he can consistently prevent solid contact (measurable), I say he has good stuff, whether that is the classical definition of stuff or not.  

At any rate, I do hope Buchholz' good stuff will one day be used to get batters out.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2006, 11:30:39 am »
Quote:

Quote:

I'll bet you good money that Buchholz is at least a "servicable 5th starter" next year.  




I only wish there a betting window for such things.  People always act like he was/is some prospect, his last three ERAs at AAA are:

5.23
4.81
4.91

Hardly what I consider inspiring numbers.  It is possible he could become servicable as he has average stuff, and decent command, but his tendency to give in under pressure doesn't lead me to believe it is probable.  Based on his minor league ERAs, I suspect he has always had these problems in crucial situations.




5.23 - 2004 injured.
4.81 - 2005 injured/recovery.  Got back to health at the end of the season.  Then went to the very excellent hitter laden 2005 AFL and dominated.
4.91 - 2006. IIRC there were mechanics issues.

Look at what he did before he got to AAA.  And, until 2005 he was considered young at each level he played.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2006, 11:50:11 am »
Quote:

Once again, I'm not sure what "stuff" actually is?  Is it the 96 mph fastball that batters pick up well, or the 93 one they don't.  Not to mention movement.  Is it a hard breaking slider that a pitcher can't command, and batters can pick up and don't respect it?  

So, when I use the term, I am referring more to refined abitilties, rather than raw abilities.  In other words, it is hard for me to say "that guy has great stuff" unless his pitches are actually doing the job.  

Mostly, I view the "job" of pitching as preventing solid contact.  Batters are looking to make solid contact, and pitchers are looking to prevent it.  If a pitcher demonstrates that he can consistently prevent solid contact (measurable), I say he has good stuff, whether that is the classical definition of stuff or not.  

At any rate, I do hope Buchholz' good stuff will one day be used to get batters out.





Then you'll consider him a pitcher?  He's had some trouble "get(ting) batters out".  His stats don't suggest that he can "prevent solid contact".  Given those statistics, why would the Astros even bother to use him any more?

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2006, 12:06:16 pm »
That is certainly a viable interpretation of his developmental line, and hopefully the right one.  I knew he had some injuries, but was unsure of the timing.  I did notice his early lower minor years, and they were somewhat promising, but then he seemed to hit a AAA wall.  Injuries, confidence issues related to his abilities at a higher level?  I don't know.  

Based on what I had read in the BA blurb on him (which did mention his injury and confidence related issue) and my assessment of him in action once he got to the majors, I fell on the side that he wasn't quite there.  He didn't look like a guy that was poised and confident in his ability, especially in the clutch.

Once again, I hope that my assessment is dead ass wrong.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2006, 12:21:27 pm »
Quote:

Based on what I had read in the BA blurb on him (which did mention his injury and confidence related issue) and my assessment of him in action once he got to the majors, I fell on the side that he wasn't quite there.  He didn't look like a guy that was poised and confident in his ability, especially in the clutch.

Once again, I hope that my assessment is dead ass wrong.





Watching what and how Buchholz pitched in the majors rather than just reading his statistical line, it's apparent that he has good stuff. Whether he can turn that into good performance, which is what the statistics represent, is another matter. Tim Redding had great stuff but couldn't keep his head on straight.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2006, 12:22:15 pm »
 
Quote:

Then you'll consider him a pitcher? He's had some trouble "get(ting) batters out". His stats don't suggest that he can "prevent solid contact". Given those statistics, why would the Astros even bother to use him any more?  



I'm sort of confused as to what your point is.  Basically, I look mainly at ERA as the ultimate measure of a pitcher.  Guys with good ERAs usually possess the stuff to get prevent good contact, and are able to do it when it counts.  Is a pitcher that consistently allows solid contact a "pitcher."  Yes, No, I don't really care.  That's semantics.  In Buchholz case, the discussion here is about whether he should have been on the mound at MMP, and whether one could have predicted his struggles based on his past performance, or whether one might predict his future performance.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2006, 12:28:30 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Then you'll consider him a pitcher? He's had some trouble "get(ting) batters out". His stats don't suggest that he can "prevent solid contact". Given those statistics, why would the Astros even bother to use him any more?  



I'm sort of confused as to what your point is.  Basically, I look mainly at ERA as the ultimate measure of a pitcher.  Guys with good ERAs usually possess the stuff to get prevent good contact, and are able to do it when it counts.  Is a pitcher that consistently allows solid contact a "pitcher."  Yes, No, I don't really care.  That's semantics.  In Buchholz case, the discussion here is about whether he should have been on the mound at MMP, and whether one could have predicted his struggles based on his past performance, or whether one might predict his future performance.




The discussion may have changed since last you checked in.  The question now is how you can comment on pitching when you readily admit "I'm not sure what "stuff" actually is" Many people know what "stuff" is.  Your attempt to analyse pitching identifies a good pitcher right at the point when he has proven to be a good pitcher.  Evaluating, and projecting success for someone like Buchholz depends on being able to identify "stuff".

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2006, 12:52:04 pm »
 
Quote:

Evaluating, and projecting success for someone like Buchholz depends on being able to identify "stuff".  




IMO, identifying stuff is almost irrelevant in making the decision to put a AAA pitcher on a major league mound.  I'd agree if you were a scout looking at an 18 year old, or evaluating the prospects of a lower minor player, but whether a AAA player has stuff is really unimportant.  It's mainly relevant about much younger guys.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2006, 01:00:08 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Evaluating, and projecting success for someone like Buchholz depends on being able to identify "stuff".  




IMO, identifying stuff is almost irrelevant in making the decision to put a AAA pitcher on a major league mound.  I'd agree if you were a scout looking at an 18 year old, or evaluating the prospects of a lower minor player, but whether a AAA player has stuff is really unimportant.  It's mainly relevant about much younger guys.





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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2006, 01:03:21 pm »
Quote:

Tim Redding had great stuff but couldn't keep his head on straight.





To use technical terms, Redding ten?a gran materia. Dentro de su cabeza, ?l ten?a una gran cantidad de relleno.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2006, 01:07:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Tim Redding had great stuff but couldn't keep his head on straight.





To use technical terms, Redding ten?a gran materia. Dentro de su cabeza, ?l ten?a una gran cantidad de relleno.





See this is where the Astros could get into trouble if their pitching coach isnt fluent in Spanish.  I don't speak Spanish (nor am I a pitching coach, but that doesn't seem to be an impediment) and what I get from that is that Tim Redding's head is made out of a relleno.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2006, 01:10:34 pm »
Quote:


IMO, identifying stuff is almost irrelevant in making the decision to put a AAA pitcher on a major league mound.  I'd agree if you were a scout looking at an 18 year old, or evaluating the prospects of a lower minor player, but whether a AAA player has stuff is really unimportant.  It's mainly relevant about much younger guys.





This is utterly ridiculous.  By far the biggest jump in organized baseball is between AAA and MLB.  Having "stuff" is critical to MLB success.  You cannot succeed without it.  Therefore, it's imperative that it be identified.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2006, 06:41:24 pm »
you are out of your mind.

go back to figuring percentages and drawing conclusions from them.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2006, 02:09:02 pm »
Jim...what's your take on this Hickey deal. I kinda figured he may settle in for the long haul at that spot.

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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2006, 03:19:31 pm »
i have no info whatsoever. i remember his hiring being considered something of a risk, but i have heard nothing about how the MLB pitchers perceived him.
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Re: Hickey fired...
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2006, 04:01:11 pm »
hmmm. I'll throw out an interesting name for the job.Orel Hershisher served in that spot for the Rangers for couple of years. Seemed well thought of. Good communicator. Patient, would probably work well with youngsters. Don't know if he'd be interested or if the org. would be interested in him.