A-Rod

[toddthebod]

Not so much a post for this season but for next.

Speculation in New York is that the Yankees will be looking to trade A-Rod in the offseason.  They think that the booing has gotten into his head, resulting in stuff like the 3 error game last night.  I don't think that there is any doubt that A-Rod could use a change of scenery.  He doesn't get along well with Jeter and that too may be  causing problems in the Yankees clubhouse.

A-Rod's contract is about $26 million a year.  The Rangers are paying about $10 million of that.  Assuming the Astros could get the Yankees to pick up some more of A-Rod's salary (so that it gets down to the $10-13 million level) do you think the Astros should be interested?  What would you be prepared to give up in exchange?

[Phil_in_CS]

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A-Rod's contract is about $26 million a year.  The Rangers are paying about $10 million of that.

I read that and wondered what percentage $10M makes of the Rangers payroll.
 Here's the list of salaries

That doesn't include A-Rod, but it does show a total of $65M, so 1/6 the Ranger payroll goes to pay someone to play for the Yankees... The $10M is more than any current Ranger gets,  and just under what #2 and #3 added together make.

How many more years does that contract run?

[Dobro]

A-Rod is definitely Drayton's kinda player.  Stranger things have happened.

[Rebel Jew]

i watched the yankee game last night, and it was the first of theirs i've watched up close in a while.  it looked to me like rodriguez was playing two positions, ss and 3b. simultaneously.  i don't know if it's just that he has too much of a ss mind at third, or that jeter lacks range enough that rodriguez has to cover for him, or maybe that rodriguez has too much of a superstar mindset so he feels like he has to make a play on every ball hit on the left side of the infield.  whatever it was, it looked pretty bizarre to me.

[Limey]

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i watched the yankee game last night, and it was the first of theirs i've watched up close in a while.  it looked to me like rodriguez was playing two positions, ss and 3b. simultaneously.  i don't know if it's just that he has too much of a ss mind at third, or that jeter lacks range enough that rodriguez has to cover for him, or maybe that rodriguez has too much of a superstar mindset so he feels like he has to make a play on every ball hit on the left side of the infield.  whatever it was, it looked pretty bizarre to me.

Jeter is widely known, outside of the schlong gorvelling elements of the media, to have little range.  It would be fucking hilarious if YankeeFan drove A-Rod away because he sucks at doing half of Jeter's job in addition to his own.

I'm no A-Rod fan, but I love watching the ignorance of YankeeFan in full flight.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

From an objective viewpoint, A-Rod was a great SS.  He hits, he's better than average defensively, although I'm not sure any the GG's were based on defensive prowess (duh!!).  Although, having watched him in Dallas, I can't explain what it is as it's nothing he does on the field but he just has a negative impact on teams.  The other issue is that A-Rod is a Boras client.  Something tells me uncle Drayton is done trying to deal with Satan.

[Limey]

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From an objective viewpoint, A-Rod was a great SS.  He hits, he's better than average defensively, although I'm not sure any the GG's were based on defensive prowess (duh!!).  Although, having watched him in Dallas, I can't explain what it is as it's nothing he does on the field but he just has a negative impact on teams.  The other issue is that A-Rod is a Boras client.  Something tells me uncle Drayton is done trying to deal with Satan.

The negative impact, IMHO is due to the fact that, regardless of who's paying what proportion, he makes $25mm a year.  In the ego-ridden clubhouses of MLB, that's a big "Fuck You!" to everyone else in the room.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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From an objective viewpoint, A-Rod was a great SS.  He hits, he's better than average defensively, although I'm not sure any the GG's were based on defensive prowess (duh!!).  Although, having watched him in Dallas, I can't explain what it is as it's nothing he does on the field but he just has a negative impact on teams.  The other issue is that A-Rod is a Boras client.  Something tells me uncle Drayton is done trying to deal with Satan.

The negative impact, IMHO is due to the fact that, regardless of who's paying what proportion, he makes $25mm a year.  In the ego-ridden clubhouses of MLB, that's a big "Fuck You!" to everyone else in the room.

I think that's part of it.  However, not knowing what goes on behind closed doors, I suspect there's more to it.  The money issue is only a problem where everyone thinks they are a superstar, i.e. The Yankees.

[Limey]

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I think that's part of it.  However, not knowing what goes on behind closed doors, I suspect there's more to it.  The money issue is only a problem where everyone thinks they are a superstar, i.e. The Yankees.

The money was also a problem on the Rangers where A-Rod sucked up so much of the money that they couldn't (or wouldn't) get/keep any other decent players.  If you're Michael Young, for example, you'd be pretty upset that you're doing A-Rod's job for one tenth of A-Rod's money.

[HudsonHawk]

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The negative impact, IMHO is due to the fact that, regardless of who's paying what proportion, he makes $25mm a year.  In the ego-ridden clubhouses of MLB, that's a big "Fuck You!" to everyone else in the room.

I don't agree with this statement.  My experience with professional ballplayers is that they don't begrudge other players for making lots of money.  In fact, they love it when other players sign huge contracts.  Means more for them in the long run.  Players like Morgan Ensberg love the fact that players like ARod make $25 million.  Morgan has ARod to thank for a portion of his salary.

[tophfar]

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The money was also a problem on the Rangers where A-Rod sucked up so much of the money that they couldn't (or wouldn't) get/keep any other decent players.  If you're Michael Young, for example, you'd be pretty upset that you're doing A-Rod's job for one tenth of A-Rod's money.

I didn't think it was A-rod's salary that caused the rangers to suck so bad, as oppossed to signings such as Chan Ho Park for many millions for many years.  

It's not like they didnt go out and pay huge contracts for pitching, they just paid huge contracts for shitty pitching.

[Limey]

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I don't agree with this statement.  My experience with professional ballplayers is that they don't begrudge other players for making lots of money.  In fact, they love it when other players sign huge contracts.  Means more for them in the long run.  Players like Morgan Ensberg love the fact that players like ARod make $25 million.  Morgan has ARod to thank for a portion of his salary.

Houston Astros Morgan Ensberg loves Texas Ranger/New York Yankee Alex Rodriguez getting paid $25mm.  If they were both on the same team, and they were sucking, and Ensberg believed (correctly or incorrectly) that A-Rod's salary was partly to blame for the lack of overall talent on the team, then he'd be pissed off.

[Limey]

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I didn't think it was A-rod's salary that caused the rangers to suck so bad, as oppossed to signings such as Chan Ho Park for many millions for many years.  

It's not like they didnt go out and pay huge contracts for pitching, they just paid huge contracts for shitty pitching.

They had two or three players sucking up the majority of the payroll.

[BizidyDizidy]

As has been discussed before, their payroll minus A-rod was bigger than ours at the time.

[Jacksonian]

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As has been discussed before, their payroll minus A-rod was bigger than ours at the time.

Right.  A-Rod wasn't their problem.  Their GM at the time was.

[HudsonHawk]

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Houston Astros Morgan Ensberg loves Texas Ranger/New York Yankee Alex Rodriguez getting paid $25mm.  If they were both on the same team, and they were sucking, and Ensberg believed (correctly or incorrectly) that A-Rod's salary was partly to blame for the lack of overall talent on the team, then he'd be pissed off.

But not pissed off at ARod.  He'd be pissed at ownership for not spending money.  Players do not believe anyone gets paid more than the market will bear.  Therefore, if someone is getting $25 million it's only because management can affort to pay it.  They don't buy into "Player X's salary is killing this team" like fans do..

[hostros7]

"killing" may be a strong word but a certain player's salary being a "hinderance" is certainly acknowledged in the clubhouse.  How else would one explain player renegotiating a contract or deferring some of their money to provide the team more financial flexibility?

[HudsonHawk]

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How else would one explain player renegotiating a contract or deferring some of their money to provide the team more financial flexibility?

Cheap ownership.  Again, players don't think the way you and I do.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Houston Astros Morgan Ensberg loves Texas Ranger/New York Yankee Alex Rodriguez getting paid $25mm.  If they were both on the same team, and they were sucking, and Ensberg believed (correctly or incorrectly) that A-Rod's salary was partly to blame for the lack of overall talent on the team, then he'd be pissed off.

The bottom line is that each player's salary, no matter which team he plays for, exerts upward pressure on salaries as a whole. Especially for arbitration-eligible players, big contracts by free agents at the same position influence (1) the possible rewards of arbitration or, alternatively, (2) the amount at which a team will be willing to settle to avoid arbitration. This doesn't mean that because A-Rod gets $25 million, everyone else gets something close to that, but it does alter the overall landscape.

[WulawHorn]

I think A-Rod is great.  I have never seen him do anything but play the game hard and the right way. It cracks me up to no end how much shit he gets from joe sixpack about his contract.

$25 mil a year is a lot, sure, but he's playing 8 months solid, travel away from home, grinding etc.  He's put up MVP caliber numbers every year of the contract without any hint of problems off the field either.

Nobody seems to care or complain when Tom Hanks or Jim Carrey or Julia Roberts make $25,000,000 per film- even when the film blows chunks.  I really don't get it at all.

He's the best player in the game.  I would argue that the best (fill in any profession) makes more money than A-Rod.  I know there are attorney's, brokers, realators, Merger guys, investors, Doctors etc that all make more than that somewhere in the world.  He is the absolute apex of his profession and is paid accordingly- so fucking what.

If the astros could get him with the rangers picking up 10 million a year I think he would be an absolute bargain at 15 million per year.  That's what Jeff Bagwell is getting paid to do nothing to help the baseball team this year (that isn't a knock against bagwell and good for him for getting that contract- just stating the facts). I wonder what you would have to give up to get him?  Moberg of course, and two or three stud pitching guys that are MLB ready would be an absolute minimum I would think.

I don't know if I would like the idea of giving up Hirsch, Buckholtz and Nieve, but I might at least think twice.

[JimR]

you must be kidding.

ARod makes teams better by leaving them. i'd rather have Julia Roberts.

[Limey]

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i'd rather have Julia Roberts.

That would certainly improve the atmosphere in the clubhouse.

[WulawHorn]

How does he make them better by leaving?  They sure as hell ain't replacing his production on the field.  Is he that big a cancer in the clubhouse, and if so how so?   He really doesn't seem like a bad dude, to me at least.

gabe

[JimR]

he left two teams. each immediately improved.

ps get me the name of that firm where lawyers make
$25 million/year. i want to send a resume.

[Bench]

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he left two teams. each immediately improved.

ps get me the name of that firm where lawyers make
$25 million/year. i want to send a resume.

Mark Lanier?

[toddthebod]

Jim.  From the press reports, it appears that some of the lawyers at Milberg were making that amount.  Then again, that firm and two of their (former) partners are now under indictment.

[stubbyc]

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he left two teams. each immediately improved.

That couldn't possibly have to do with the fact that the Rangers allowed 174 runs fewer in '04 than they did in '03. Must have been the defensive changes eh? Replacing a GG SS with a 2b and Young with Soriano.

Maybe this is Jim being sarcastic, but this sounds a whole lot like the shit coming from the NY media.

[stubbyc]

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How does he make them better by leaving?  They sure as hell ain't replacing his production on the field.  Is he that big a cancer in the clubhouse, and if so how so?   He really doesn't seem like a bad dude, to me at least.

gabe

Him leaving was obviously the reason for Mark Teixeira's breakout and a bullpen that was a hell of a lot better.

[stubbyc]

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I think A-Rod is great.  I have never seen him do anything but play the game hard and the right way. It cracks me up to no end how much shit he gets from joe sixpack about his contract.

$25 mil a year is a lot, sure, but he's playing 8 months solid, travel away from home, grinding etc.  He's put up MVP caliber numbers every year of the contract without any hint of problems off the field either.

Nobody seems to care or complain when Tom Hanks or Jim Carrey or Julia Roberts make $25,000,000 per film- even when the film blows chunks.  I really don't get it at all.

He's the best player in the game.  I would argue that the best (fill in any profession) makes more money than A-Rod.  I know there are attorney's, brokers, realators, Merger guys, investors, Doctors etc that all make more than that somewhere in the world.  He is the absolute apex of his profession and is paid accordingly- so fucking what.

If the astros could get him with the rangers picking up 10 million a year I think he would be an absolute bargain at 15 million per year.  That's what Jeff Bagwell is getting paid to do nothing to help the baseball team this year (that isn't a knock against bagwell and good for him for getting that contract- just stating the facts). I wonder what you would have to give up to get him?  Moberg of course, and two or three stud pitching guys that are MLB ready would be an absolute minimum I would think.

I don't know if I would like the idea of giving up Hirsch, Buckholtz and Nieve, but I might at least think twice.

I'm not exactly sure how the money is spread out, but at the time of the trade A-Rod still had 179 million was left on his contract 67 million of which Texas agreed to pick up. Some research and guess work and I think he's left with about 118 million on his contract 44 mil of which Texas is still responsible for. 4.5 years left at 74 million doesn't seem like too bad of a deal for A-Rod. The chances of it happening are very remote though.

[matadorph]

And him leaving was also the reason the Seattle pitching staff shaved an entire run off the team ERA in 2001, not to mention free agent second-baseman Bret Boone's "career year."

[stubbyc]

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And him leaving was also the reason the Seattle pitching staff shaved an entire run off the team ERA in 2001, not to mention free agent second-baseman Bret Boone's "career year."

Or the addition of ROY and MVP Ichiro.

[WulawHorn]

Jim- I said that the absolute apex of the lawyers made that- as in the top 1.

Every year multple lawyers make that type of jack.  Think Joe Jamail as one example, the baylor guys involved with the cigarette cases against the states, and others involved in massive torts & class actions/ like Firestone, Asbestos etc.

I don't begrude anyone making serious jack at the top of their profession, and as a general rule society doesn't.  When it's AROD though everyone has the sharp knives out and I just don't get it.

Hell- Lawyers are way overpaid compared to ballplayers.  if you are the 1,000th best ballplayer in the world you make $300k (league minimum).  Way more than 1,000 lawyers worldwide pull down 300k a year.

Heck- even associates in some markets are making that I think.

[Arky Vaughan]

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he left two teams. each immediately improved.

ps get me the name of that firm where lawyers make
$25 million/year. i want to send a resume.

Try Crooked Trial Lawyers LLC.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Jim- I said that the absolute apex of the lawyers made that- as in the top 1.

Every year multple lawyers make that type of jack.  Think Joe Jamail as one example, the baylor guys involved with the cigarette cases against the states, and others involved in massive torts & class actions/ like Firestone, Asbestos etc.

I don't begrude anyone making serious jack at the top of their profession, and as a general rule society doesn't.  When it's AROD though everyone has the sharp knives out and I just don't get it.

Hell- Lawyers are way overpaid compared to ballplayers.  if you are the 1,000th best ballplayer in the world you make $300k (league minimum).  Way more than 1,000 lawyers worldwide pull down 300k a year.

Heck- even associates in some markets are making that I think.

I'm sure some senior associates are making that at Todd's firm if you include bonuses.

That said, I don't think your economic calculation is right that if you're the Xth best person at your profession, you should be making the same as the Xth best person at another profession.

[Craig]

Quote:

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he left two teams. each immediately improved.

ps get me the name of that firm where lawyers make
$25 million/year. i want to send a resume.

Mark Lanier?

I know Mark Lanier. During high school we worked at the same convenience store in Lubbock, back in the late '70s. He taught me to listen to Bruce Springsteen. I should call and ask him for a loan.

[Rebel Jew]

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I think A-Rod is great.  I have never seen him do anything but play the game hard and the right way. It cracks me up to no end how much shit he gets from joe sixpack about his contract.
 

I have certainly never seen him do anything but play the game with talent, but I don't know about "the right way," whatever that actually means.  It was a common complaint in Texas, and obvious to anyone who watched their games, that Rodriguez was a grade A asshole in the field and in the clubhouse, who loved to big time his teammates, shout at the them, and generally tell them what to do.  If the game I watched last night is any indicator, nothing has changed.  He was trying to play two positions at once, cheating over to cover Jeter's zone, and as a result was way off balance on two of the errors he made.  Now, you might tell me about Jeter's poor zone rating, or what a bad defensive player he is, but this is exactly the type of behavior that asshole kids with asshole parents try in little league (see the portion of The Bad News Bears where Kelly Leak decided to field everyone else's positions).

 

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Nobody seems to care or complain when Tom Hanks or Jim Carrey or Julia Roberts make $25,000,000 per film- even when the film blows chunks. I really don't get it at all.

Actually, this is exactly the type of trend that has RUINED Hollywood filmmaking over the last twenty years.  An inordiante percentage of a film's budget goes to the star, and so not enough is left over to make the film itself better.  Plus, when one actor receives so much money, they also are granted an inordiante amount of say over the direction of the film, and so they are going to push for the film to revolve strictly around their character.  I worked in a major management firm in Hollywood for a year, and another year at a production house and as a production assistant, and I can say that, without question, agents and managers (and to a much lesser extent the actors they represent) wield the majority of the power in the entertainment industry.  Sound familiar?

[WulawHorn]

I'm not saying that all professions should earn the same amount of money. I'm just saying athletes at the professional level are at the apex of their field and make a lot of money- but so does everyone else at the apex of their profession.  I don't understand the hate for athletes making big jack- they work really hard and have unique skills and they benefit society, even if it is just providing a diversion and community building excersize.

[JimR]

wulaw--you're nutso.

poor mlb ballplayers. they work sooooooooooooo hard.

[Arky Vaughan]

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I'm not saying that all professions should earn the same amount of money. I'm just saying athletes at the professional level are at the apex of their field and make a lot of money- but so does everyone else at the apex of their profession.  I don't understand the hate for athletes making big jack- they work really hard and have unique skills and they benefit society, even if it is just providing a diversion and community building excersize.

I don't disagree with your latter point. Athletes will make as much as the market will bear to pay them. Although people do question why they should publicly subsidize ballparks so that owners can pay players millions of dollars per year. But since the funding of ballparks is often approved by referenda, who's to blame for that?

[Golden Sombrero]

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he left two teams. each immediately improved.

ps get me the name of that firm where lawyers make
$25 million/year. i want to send a resume.

That sounds like my future law firm.  No, wait--it's the malpractice attorneys collecting on my firm that will make $25 million.

[Reuben]

 

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I have certainly never seen him do anything but play the game with talent, but I don't know about "the right way," whatever that actually means. It was a common complaint in Texas, and obvious to anyone who watched their games, that Rodriguez was a grade A asshole in the field and in the clubhouse, who loved to big time his teammates, shout at the them, and generally tell them what to do. If the game I watched last night is any indicator, nothing has changed. He was trying to play two positions at once, cheating over to cover Jeter's zone, and as a result was way off balance on two of the errors he made. Now, you might tell me about Jeter's poor zone rating, or what a bad defensive player he is, but this is exactly the type of behavior that asshole kids with asshole parents try in little league (see the portion of The Bad News Bears where Kelly Leak decided to field everyone else's positions).
 

There is a lot about A-Rod's game to admire, but in my humble o. there was nothing "right way" about him slapping the ball out of Bronson Arroyo's glove in the 04 ALCS. And his incredulous reaction after the umps ruled him out was just as bad.

[Golden Sombrero]

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I have certainly never seen him do anything but play the game with talent, but I don't know about "the right way," whatever that actually means. It was a common complaint in Texas, and obvious to anyone who watched their games, that Rodriguez was a grade A asshole in the field and in the clubhouse, who loved to big time his teammates, shout at the them, and generally tell them what to do. If the game I watched last night is any indicator, nothing has changed. He was trying to play two positions at once, cheating over to cover Jeter's zone, and as a result was way off balance on two of the errors he made. Now, you might tell me about Jeter's poor zone rating, or what a bad defensive player he is, but this is exactly the type of behavior that asshole kids with asshole parents try in little league (see the portion of The Bad News Bears where Kelly Leak decided to field everyone else's positions).
 

There is a lot about A-Rod's game to admire, but in my humble o. there was nothing "right way" about him slapping the ball out of Bronson Arroyo's glove in the 04 ALCS. And his incredulous reaction after the umps ruled him out was just as bad.

Ah, but it did give rise to one of the top-tier sports photo-shops of all time (in my opinion, anyways).

The Link

[WulawHorn]

Jim- totally misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for them, just saying that they work hard for their money and deserve it, as a general rule.

I guess I just don't understand jealousy in general.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Jim- totally misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for them, just saying that they work hard for their money and deserve it, as a general rule.

I guess I just don't understand jealousy in general.

"Deserve's got nothin' to do with it."

[JimR]

they do not "work hard" either. please.

[mihoba]

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they do not "work hard" either. please.

That is funny stuff. I wish I had the talent to "work so hard."

It's a game. They play . It's their "job." End of story.

[JimR]

travel first class. eat first class. live first class. free stuff. sleep till noon. treated like VIPs everywhere.

sure being away from home is tough on families, but "work hard?" funny.

[Bench]

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travel first class. eat first class. live first class. free stuff. sleep till noon. treated like VIPs everywhere.

sure being away from home is tough on families, but "work hard?" funny.

You forgot about the "grinding." They're always "grinding." Especially Biggio, so I hear.

[WulawHorn]

Deserve as in fans pay lots of money to see them play so they deserve to share in the revenue generated through payroll.

I think that their job is has many difficulties.  Travel away from family is hard, their bodies get beat up, and it is a mental strain I'm sure. Maybe work isn't the right word, but playing 162 games, plus spring training, plus the playoffs (if you're good and luck enough) adds up to an immense mental strain I'm sure.

I can only go back to my experience in athletics and somedays I hated playing/practicing.  After not getting out of competing I missed the playing, but you look at it differntly when it means so much to you.  I used to get wrapped up in my self worth equaling the number I shot every particular day.  I'm sure that happens with pro's as well. It makes it  less of a game and more of a job in my opinion.

That's why I said they deserve their money and work for it.  If everyone (or anyone) doesn't want to agree I'm fine with that too.

[WulawHorn]

absolutely there are a ton of perks.  I'd trade places w/ them if I could.  

I just don't begrudge them getting paid...

I went to school/ played little league with a guy that made the bigs for a full year with the A's and parts of a year with the Marlins. I'd wager I've (along with many others on this board) have made more money then him since graduation.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Deserve as in fans pay lots of money to see them play so they deserve to share in the revenue generated through payroll.

I think that their job is has many difficulties.  Travel away from family is hard, their bodies get beat up, and it is a mental strain I'm sure. Maybe work isn't the right word, but playing 162 games, plus spring training, plus the playoffs (if you're good and luck enough) adds up to an immense mental strain I'm sure.

I can only go back to my experience in athletics and somedays I hated playing/practicing.  After not getting out of competing I missed the playing, but you look at it differntly when it means so much to you.  I used to get wrapped up in my self worth equaling the number I shot every particular day.  I'm sure that happens with pro's as well. It makes it  less of a game and more of a job in my opinion.

That's why I said they deserve their money and work for it.  If everyone (or anyone) doesn't want to agree I'm fine with that too.

They're still among the most fortunate people on earth. I don't begrudge them what they make, but I'm not going to lionize them either.

[hostros7]

 Sammy the Clown

While I don't begrudge MLB players earning exorbitant salaries, the Clown buying a plane just doesn't seem right.  Hopefully, it is just a '62 cessna and not a citation 10.

[Ty in Tampa]

Fuck. I liked him much better after I'd forgot about him.

[The Third Man]

Why does the term "grinding" seem more appropriate for one of Prince's girlfriends than a baseball player? Anyway, I tend to agree with Jim on this... coal miners with child support payments and black lung "grind."

[Zan]

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Sammy the Clown

While I don't begrudge MLB players earning exorbitant salaries, the Clown buying a plane just doesn't seem right.  Hopefully, it is just a '62 cessna and not a citation 10.

I don't begrudge them their riches either, but I dislike when celebs want to have their cake and eat it too. Take your millions - that is fine. The only reason you make millions is because winning is a huge deal to people. I especially hate when fans get fed lines about expectations that are too high. No, baseball personnel live in fantasyland precisely because our expectations are high. Stop making excuses for how competitive it is, acting like fans need to get a life, and go win the whole thing. Every team that doesn't win should be apologizing to its fans - that is just good customer service. We subsidize their fantasy lives. If fans expectations are too high, perhaps fans should spend our time and money elsewhere.

[Greg]

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I don't disagree with your latter point. Athletes will make as much as the market will bear to pay them. Although people do question why they should publicly subsidize ballparks so that owners can pay players millions of dollars per year. But since the funding of ballparks is often approved by referenda, who's to blame for that?

I ran into this a ways back. It?s a good article from the Boston  Globe about the findings from a group of economists at Cleveland State who sorted through the proposed economic benefits of stadiums and the actual benefits. Anyways, I thought some of you might want to check it out. The Link

[Golden Sombrero]

BBT guys talking about A-Rod possibly being on the block due to his error-fest and batting bungles this week.  They also suggested he would want to switch back to SS, where he feels much more comfortable.  To resurrect this thread, if he were really available, would we try to make a go for him to play SS?  

I'm not sure where'd that leave AE (if he stays here, A-Rod; if part of the deal, Jeter), but could anyone imagine Ensberg in pinstripes--(Yankee pinstripes, I mean).  I'm sure this is all moot since it's highly unlikely that a) A-Rod would be available, or b) Purp would make the huge sacrifice necessary to do the trade.  But I'm very bored right now.

[Savage]

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I don't disagree with your latter point. Athletes will make as much as the market will bear to pay them. Although people do question why they should publicly subsidize ballparks so that owners can pay players millions of dollars per year. But since the funding of ballparks is often approved by referenda, who's to blame for that?

I ran into this a ways back. It?s a good article from the Boston  Globe about the findings from a group of economists at Cleveland State who sorted through the proposed economic benefits of stadiums and the actual benefits. Anyways, I thought some of you might want to check it out. The Link

One exception to this I'd point out is DC.  While if you looked at the entire Washington metro region there is likely no benefit, how the pie gets split up may shift.  Since fans come from NoVa and MD and shift their entertainment dollars from dinner and a movie at a local restaurant and instead pay money in the District.  So DC coffers get a little heavier and MD and VA coffers a little lighter.  The MCI center has had a similar impact on the area (as well as luring more residents into the city from the burbs).  Since you have different tax jurisdictions, it actually means something to shift people and dollars around.

[Arky Vaughan]

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One exception to this I'd point out is DC.  While if you looked at the entire Washington metro region there is likely no benefit, how the pie gets split up may shift.  Since fans come from NoVa and MD and shift their entertainment dollars from dinner and a movie at a local restaurant and instead pay money in the District.  So DC coffers get a little heavier and MD and VA coffers a little lighter.  The MCI center has had a similar impact on the area (as well as luring more residents into the city from the burbs).  Since you have different tax jurisdictions, it actually means something to shift people and dollars around.

While downtown D.C., and the area around the MCI Center in particular, are a far better draw than they used to be, I'd be surprised if the effects on taxes across the three jurisdictions have shifted significantly.  I just can't imagine that many families from the suburbs are hauling their cookies into downtown D.C. to go to movies or dinner.  What has more likely happened is that some dollars that were being spent along other points on the Metro lines in D.C. are now being spent near the MCI Center.

[Savage]

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One exception to this I'd point out is DC.  While if you looked at the entire Washington metro region there is likely no benefit, how the pie gets split up may shift.  Since fans come from NoVa and MD and shift their entertainment dollars from dinner and a movie at a local restaurant and instead pay money in the District.  So DC coffers get a little heavier and MD and VA coffers a little lighter.  The MCI center has had a similar impact on the area (as well as luring more residents into the city from the burbs).  Since you have different tax jurisdictions, it actually means something to shift people and dollars around.

While downtown D.C., and the area around the MCI Center in particular, are a far better draw than they used to be, I'd be surprised if the effects on taxes across the three jurisdictions have shifted significantly.  I just can't imagine that many families from the suburbs are hauling their cookies into downtown D.C. to go to movies or dinner.  What has more likely happened is that some dollars that were being spent along other points on the Metro lines in D.C. are now being spent near the MCI Center.

I think you would be surprised about how many people come into the city from the burbs with their families for sporting events there.  I had season tickets for years and the metros were always chocked full of families and others from the burbs.  My DC city-limit exit from the train was an anomoly.  The Caps have done studies of their season ticket and fan base and it was largely from NoVa (which is why they are moving their practice facility to Ballston).  You're right in that money is being shifted along the metro lines, but it's more likely that money from Rosslyn or Falls Church is being spent in the city rather than a shift from Dupont Circle.  I haven't studied the issue specifically in relation to the baseball stadium (I left 2 years ago), but the MCI center certainly helped DC coffers.  Not that my taxes were lower or city services improved as a result, but that's an entirely different issue...

[Arky Vaughan]

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I think you would be surprised about how many people come into the city from the burbs with their families for sporting events there.  I had season tickets for years and the metros were always chocked full of families and others from the burbs.  My DC city-limit exit from the train was an anomoly.  The Caps have done studies of their season ticket and fan base and it was largely from NoVa (which is why they are moving their practice facility to Ballston).  You're right in that money is being shifted along the metro lines, but it's more likely that money from Rosslyn or Falls Church is being spent in the city rather than a shift from Dupont Circle.  I haven't studied the issue specifically in relation to the baseball stadium (I left 2 years ago), but the MCI center certainly helped DC coffers.  Not that my taxes were lower or city services improved as a result, but that's an entirely different issue...

Do you mean people who eat around the MCI Center on game dates, or more generally? Obviously the games are attended by people other than just residents of D.C. I was not arguing that. I'm talking about whether many families come into town to eat dinner and watch a movie when they can do the same thing in the suburbs.

[Savage]

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I think you would be surprised about how many people come into the city from the burbs with their families for sporting events there.  I had season tickets for years and the metros were always chocked full of families and others from the burbs.  My DC city-limit exit from the train was an anomoly.  The Caps have done studies of their season ticket and fan base and it was largely from NoVa (which is why they are moving their practice facility to Ballston).  You're right in that money is being shifted along the metro lines, but it's more likely that money from Rosslyn or Falls Church is being spent in the city rather than a shift from Dupont Circle.  I haven't studied the issue specifically in relation to the baseball stadium (I left 2 years ago), but the MCI center certainly helped DC coffers.  Not that my taxes were lower or city services improved as a result, but that's an entirely different issue...

Do you mean people who eat around the MCI Center on game dates, or more generally? Obviously the games are attended by people other than just residents of D.C. I was not arguing that. I'm talking about whether many families come into town to eat dinner and watch a movie when they can do the same thing in the suburbs.  

I think there's three ways DC pulls in revenue from the burbs: (1)  people coming to the game spend entertainment dollars in the district at the time of the game (instead of on a movie in Ballston) (2) people are more willing to come into (or stay after work) the city for dinner because of revitalization and/or demystification of "the city" and (3) revitalization means more people move into the city.  I think the MCI center helped a lot of people in the area "rediscover" the city.  Hence the gentrification of major areas such as the Hill.  The point is that you saw some of these same effects in Baltimore with Camden Yards, but you were basically just getting money that would have been spent elsewhere in Maryland.  There's all sorts of great civic reasons to support revitalization of the area, but from an economic point of view there's not really a net gain for the state or lager city that subsidizes it.  DC is different because when revitalization brings people in from surrounding areas (or keeps them in the city after work), their transfered entertainment dollars are an incremental gain.  It's just an interesting exception to the general principal that from an econominc point-of-view cities and states aren't gaining economically from funding these stadiums.  If memory serves, there's a good, though wonky, analysis of the whole stadium issue in the georgetown public policy review from Fall/Winter 2001.  Articles aren't online and I have no idea where my copy is, but just in-case you run acrosss a copy in your statistical journey...

[Arky Vaughan]

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I think there's three ways DC pulls in revenue from the burbs: (1)  people coming to the game spend entertainment dollars in the district at the time of the game (instead of on a movie in Ballston) (2) people are more willing to come into (or stay after work) the city for dinner because of revitalization and/or demystification of "the city" and (3) revitalization means more people move into the city.  I think the MCI center helped a lot of people in the area "rediscover" the city.  Hence the gentrification of major areas such as the Hill.  The point is that you saw some of these same effects in Baltimore with Camden Yards, but you were basically just getting money that would have been spent elsewhere in Maryland.  There's all sorts of great civic reasons to support revitalization of the area, but from an economic point of view there's not really a net gain for the state or lager city that subsidizes it.  DC is different because when revitalization brings people in from surrounding areas (or keeps them in the city after work), their transfered entertainment dollars are an incremental gain.  It's just an interesting exception to the general principal that from an econominc point-of-view cities and states aren't gaining economically from funding these stadiums.  If memory serves, there's a good, though wonky, analysis of the whole stadium issue in the georgetown public policy review from Fall/Winter 2001.  Articles aren't online and I have no idea where my copy is, but just in-case you run acrosss a copy in your statistical journey...

The MCI Center has given them something to build around in Gallery Place, although much of downtown and the entire stretch of Massachusetts Avenue from Dupont Circle to Chinatown has become much better developed over the last 10 years. I would find it difficult to attribute too much of that to the MCI Center. Surely the MCI Center is not primarily responsible for low interest rates that sparked a great market for condos and rowhouses all over Northwest. Maybe a ballpark on the Anacostia River will redevelop that part of the city too, but I think it's questionable that the subsidies are really paying off in economic growth that would not otherwise have occurred.