My thoughts after last night/ midseason

[MusicMan]

1.  Berkman's comments about this team playing bad fundamental baseball were spot on.  It's a shame that they came from someone who so frequently displays poor fundamentals.
2.  Seriously, someone should have beaten the shit out of Munson after the game.  That was inexcusable for a little leaguer, much less a major league professional.
3.  Roy's "double" was as indicative of this season as any play I can think of - getting your hopes up, and then realizing that it just wasn't going to happen.
4.  Anyone who still believes that Lidge's problems were simply "tipping pitches" is not very observant.
5.  Willy Taveras should never have a bat in his hands.  Oswalt looked less overmatched.  Willy's only function at this point is PR/defensive replacement.  I nearly threw something at the TV when Garner let him bat in the 9th.
6.  Jason  Lane can't even claim the PR/defensive replacement role.  I would have no problem seeing Scott in his place on the roster.
7.  It was hard to tell where Joe Morgan ended and LaRussa's ass began.
8.  As beautiful as the proposed Lane/Lidge/Everett for Tejada deal would have looked at this point - I can't see this team being buyers at the deadline.  There's no point throwing away prospects at this point.
9.  The All-Star Break couldn't come at a better time.

[juliogotay]

Tavaras does not have a bat in his hands. He uses a wet newspaper.

[BudGirl]

What would be the consequences of cutting Jason Lane?  Pay his salary for the rest of the season?  What else?

[drew corleone]

That was just a "kick in the teeth" series. Everytime this team looks like it's putting things together it finds new ways to lose.

I have no doubt that they'll put together a run at some point. But will it come soon enough to matter?

[Arky Vaughan]

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That was just a "kick in the teeth" series. Everytime this team looks like it's putting things together it finds new ways to lose.

I have no doubt that they'll put together a run at some point. But will it come soon enough to matter?

It could easily have gone 3-1 instead of 1-3, with the Astros now being two rather than six games out.

Not sure that makes me feel better or worse.

[drew corleone]

Very true. I think that's what makes it all the more frustrating. The same could have been said about the series in Chicago, or the one with Minnesota, or the last one in St. Louis.

Maybe a few days off will help everyone re-focus.

[No? in Austin]

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What would be the consequences of cutting Jason Lane?

Losing a trade opportunity?  Jason Lane isn't producing, that much is true.  But last year he did, so he's done so in the majors, so that makes all major league GMs stand up and take a look.  Some GMs are very slick and would love to take a player that they know has talent and make a project out of him.

I wouldn't want the Houston Astros to treat Lane as the next Richard Hidalgo at this time.  It is much better to keep the faith and hope someone will see him as a guy who is just in need of some 1) playing time to find himself and 2) an opportunity.  If Lane could clear waivers, time in AAA would be very helpful, so he can play everyday.  So it would take a major league club with an opportunity for him to play to straighten this kid out at this time.

I remember how the Reds treated Austin Kearns last year and got him through waivers and down to AAA.  Now look at how Kearns has become a productive player again.  Someone will look at Lane in the same manner.  Trust me.

[drew corleone]

I hear there's a badass LHP about to enter his sophomore season at Waxahachie HS. How about sending them lane for his rights, straight up?

[jasonact]

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2.  Seriously, someone should have beaten the shit out of Munson after the game.  That was inexcusable for a little leaguer, much less a major league professional.

Are you talking about being picked off first? I didn't see it. What part was inexcusable?

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4.  Anyone who still believes that Lidge's problems were simply "tipping pitches" is not very observant.

Does anyone have a legit theory about what is going on with him, even if that theory is half-baked? Lidge was phenomenal for a couple of years. I don't think he was a fluke. Then he imploded. I don't buy the "Pujols homer shock" theory either.

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6.  Jason  Lane can't even claim the PR/defensive replacement role.  I would have no problem seeing Scott in his place on the roster.

I agree. I have to think that Lane and a few others are little more than trade bait right now.

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7.  It was hard to tell where Joe Morgan ended and LaRussa's ass began.

This is news?

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8.  As beautiful as the proposed Lane/Lidge/Everett for Tejada deal would have looked at this point - I can't see this team being buyers at the deadline.  There's no point throwing away prospects at this point.

I disagree. As bad as the Astros have played, they've been in almost every game, and they're still only 6 games out. No team that close would not look to be buyers. There are a few key prospects you hold onto for dear life, but the Astros have some major and minor league players that could probably get something decent. Of course, if the players don't get their heads out of their asses soon, all of the trades in the world won't make much of a difference. I'm glad to hear that the coaches got their asses chewed a bit too. The team is not focused and playing as a team right now. That's the fault of the coaching staff.

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9.  The All-Star Break couldn't come at a better time.

Absolutely. With a soft schedule to begin the second half, the Astros could turn things around quickly, but they can't shoot themselves in the collective foot, the way they have been doing.

[chuck]

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Are you talking about being picked off first? I didn't see it. What part was inexcusable?

The part where he got picked off. It was a tie game with the winning run on base in front of him. He would have better served the team by literally sitting down on the base rather than dance around with any sort of lead.

[astro pete]

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I disagree. As bad as the Astros have played, they've been in almost every game, and they're still only 6 games out. No team that close would not look to be buyers. There are a few key prospects you hold onto for dear life, but the Astros have some major and minor league players that could probably get something decent. Of course, if the players don't get their heads out of their asses soon, all of the trades in the world won't make much of a difference. I'm glad to hear that the coaches got their asses chewed a bit too. The team is not focused and playing as a team right now. That's the fault of the coaching staff.

A couple reasons why they may not be buyers.  The first is that the team already has a payroll over $100 million.  Another is that Tim Purpura seems to be a "stay the course" kind of guy, and for all intents and purposes, this team should be better than the 2005 version that won the pennant.

[No? in Austin]

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Does anyone have a legit theory about what is going on with him, even if that theory is half-baked?

Lidge has bad mechanics already (stiff leg landing foot being the primary one, as well as he violent arm torgue at his release point).  He amplifies his mechanics problems when he's pitching from the stretch.

Nobody talks about it, but he's pitching as if he has a bit of pain in the arm/shoulder.  He's had shoulder and bicep problems before and had to be shut down for weeks at a time during the season.  He claims he's fine, but he's not pitching like he's okay.  Bad mechanics can sometimes be a tip off that over compensation is happening because of a pain in the arm somewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone in the organization is talking to him about it and asking him to see a specialist if he's not 100%.  I take that back, all pitchers will be less than 100% pain free during the season.  But if Lidge has some sort of pain when he releases the ball, then he's gotta find out what it may be and deal with it.  Trying to overcompensate his mechanics to avoid the pain is not a good idea.

[No? in Austin]

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A couple reasons why they may not be buyers.  The first is that the team already has a payroll over $100 million.  Another is that Tim Purpura seems to be a "stay the course" kind of guy, and for all intents and purposes, this team should be better than the 2005 version that won the pennant.

Glad you said should, because the 2005 bullpen was much better than this year's version.  Ten times better.  A great bullpen will help you win a pennant.  A so-so bullpen will keep you from being a top contender for sure.  The American League seems to have all the great bullpens right now, the National League is wide open in that regard.

Houston has to be as concerned about it's bullpen woes as it is about it's middle of the lineup woes.

[MusicMan]

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A couple reasons why they may not be buyers.  The first is that the team already has a payroll over $100 million.  Another is that Tim Purpura seems to be a "stay the course" kind of guy, and for all intents and purposes, this team should be better than the 2005 version that won the pennant.

Glad you said should, because the 2005 bullpen was much better than this year's version.  Ten times better.  A great bullpen will help you win a pennant.  A so-so bullpen will keep you from being a top contender for sure.  The American League seems to have all the great bullpens right now, the National League is wide open in that regard.

Houston has to be as concerned about it's bullpen woes as it is about it's middle of the lineup woes.

Agree, except it's not just the middle.

Last night's lineup had *maybe* 3 hitters worthy of respect by an opposing pitcher.

[Navin R Johnson]

The fact that Lidge has made it through the last 3 years, without ending up on the DL for an extended period of time, when you consider his Minor League Career, is bordering on incomprehensible.     Especially in light of his mechanics, which has been pointed out on TZ many times including this thread.

That is one reason I had no problem with shopping him around prior to the season, eventually he is going to completely break down, imo.

[jasonact]

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A couple reasons why they may not be buyers.  The first is that the team already has a payroll over $100 million.  Another is that Tim Purpura seems to be a "stay the course" kind of guy, and for all intents and purposes, this team should be better than the 2005 version that won the pennant.

Payroll is certainly a concern, but there may be trades out there that don't break the bank, especially in the relief pitching department. I think the Astros would welcome a good, dependable arm in the pen almost as much as a solid bat.

[astro pete]

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A couple reasons why they may not be buyers.  The first is that the team already has a payroll over $100 million.  Another is that Tim Purpura seems to be a "stay the course" kind of guy, and for all intents and purposes, this team should be better than the 2005 version that won the pennant.

Payroll is certainly a concern, but there may be trades out there that don't break the bank, especially in the relief pitching department. I think the Astros would welcome a good, dependable arm in the pen almost as much as a solid bat.

Agreed.

[MusicMan]

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I think the Astros would welcome a good, dependable arm in the pen almost as much as a solid bat.

His name is Nieve, and he needs some more appearances.

[jasonact]

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I think the Astros would welcome a good, dependable arm in the pen almost as much as a solid bat.

His name is Nieve, and he needs some more appearances.

Yeah, whatever happened to that kid? I thought he had potential.

[Astroholic]

Mr. Obvious but I will state it anyway. The stros need a decent bat in the middle (not saying they can't contend without one but come on for fuck sakes). If I have to watch that deer in the headlights look into the catcher mitt one more time I think I am going to puke.  I still love Jim's Chipper idea.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Mr. Obvious but I will state it anyway. The stros need a decent bat in the middle (not saying they can't contend without one but come on for fuck sakes). If I have to watch that deer in the headlights look into the catcher mitt one more time I think I am going to puke.  I still love Jim's Chipper idea.

I like it too, especially now that Chipper has awoken and is an RBI machine.

[Random]

To suggest that the Astros are in a favorable position come the trade deadline?  If you break a team's trade deadline needs down to offense, starting pitching a relief pitching, the Astros greatest need appears to be solid arms in the bullpen.  The starting pitching is turning it around and the bats are comparable to last year's.  We could all easily rattle off the games that were winnable, only to see the bullpen blow them.   The reason I say this leaves the Astros in a favorable position is that you can find decent relief help a lot easier and a lower price than you'll find a decent bat or a decent starting pitcher around the trade deadline.  Would it be impossible to suggest that the Astros go out and focus their search on solid relief pitching?

[VirtualBob]

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Nobody talks about it, but he's pitching as if he has a bit of pain in the arm/shoulder.  He's had shoulder and bicep problems before and had to be shut down for weeks at a time during the season.  

Several times, actually.  When he first showed up in RR in 2001 he was almost unhittable for 2 starts (> 1.5 K/IP; ~6 K/BB), then missed the rest of the season.    He had missed part of every season up to that point, I think.

[No? in Austin]

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To suggest that the Astros are in a favorable position come the trade deadline?  If you break a team's trade deadline needs down to offense, starting pitching a relief pitching, the Astros greatest need appears to be solid arms in the bullpen.  The starting pitching is turning it around and the bats are comparable to last year's.  We could all easily rattle off the games that were winnable, only to see the bullpen blow them.   The reason I say this leaves the Astros in a favorable position is that you can find decent relief help a lot easier and a lower price than you'll find a decent bat or a decent starting pitcher around the trade deadline.  Would it be impossible to suggest that the Astros go out and focus their search on solid relief pitching?

Abso-freaking-lutely.  While they need a middle of the lineup bat, that is not going to be a difference maker, IMHO.  I solid bullpen will make a huge difference.  The solution may be from within as well, from a pitcher stepping up to a youngster coming up to an unexpected solution.  Overall, the best solution is to get a proven performer, say a Tom Gordon-like reliever.

[ASTROCREEP]

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To suggest that the Astros are in a favorable position come the trade deadline?  If you break a team's trade deadline needs down to offense, starting pitching a relief pitching, the Astros greatest need appears to be solid arms in the bullpen.  The starting pitching is turning it around and the bats are comparable to last year's.  We could all easily rattle off the games that were winnable, only to see the bullpen blow them.   The reason I say this leaves the Astros in a favorable position is that you can find decent relief help a lot easier and a lower price than you'll find a decent bat or a decent starting pitcher around the trade deadline.  Would it be impossible to suggest that the Astros go out and focus their search on solid relief pitching?

Abso-freaking-lutely.  While they need a middle of the lineup bat, that is not going to be a difference maker, IMHO.  I solid bullpen will make a huge difference.  The solution may be from within as well, from a pitcher stepping up to a youngster coming up to an unexpected solution.  Overall, the best solution is to get a proven performer, say a Tom Gordon-like reliever.

Yes, if they were only able to improve 1 thing, the bullpen would be the best choice, but Ensberg should be as much a concern as Lidge. Without Ensberg, you only have Berkman and
Lamb driving in runs. Berkman, Lamb, Burke, Wilson are the Astros top hitters IN THAT ORDER, not good.

[Jacksonian]

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To suggest that the Astros are in a favorable position come the trade deadline?  If you break a team's trade deadline needs down to offense, starting pitching a relief pitching, the Astros greatest need appears to be solid arms in the bullpen.  The starting pitching is turning it around and the bats are comparable to last year's.  We could all easily rattle off the games that were winnable, only to see the bullpen blow them.   The reason I say this leaves the Astros in a favorable position is that you can find decent relief help a lot easier and a lower price than you'll find a decent bat or a decent starting pitcher around the trade deadline.  Would it be impossible to suggest that the Astros go out and focus their search on solid relief pitching?

Abso-freaking-lutely.  While they need a middle of the lineup bat, that is not going to be a difference maker, IMHO.  I solid bullpen will make a huge difference.  The solution may be from within as well, from a pitcher stepping up to a youngster coming up to an unexpected solution.  Overall, the best solution is to get a proven performer, say a Tom Gordon-like reliever.

If you could get a middle of the order bat and a Gordon-like reliever for Lidge would you?

[No? in Austin]

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To suggest that the Astros are in a favorable position come the trade deadline?  If you break a team's trade deadline needs down to offense, starting pitching a relief pitching, the Astros greatest need appears to be solid arms in the bullpen.  The starting pitching is turning it around and the bats are comparable to last year's.  We could all easily rattle off the games that were winnable, only to see the bullpen blow them.   The reason I say this leaves the Astros in a favorable position is that you can find decent relief help a lot easier and a lower price than you'll find a decent bat or a decent starting pitcher around the trade deadline.  Would it be impossible to suggest that the Astros go out and focus their search on solid relief pitching?

Abso-freaking-lutely.  While they need a middle of the lineup bat, that is not going to be a difference maker, IMHO.  I solid bullpen will make a huge difference.  The solution may be from within as well, from a pitcher stepping up to a youngster coming up to an unexpected solution.  Overall, the best solution is to get a proven performer, say a Tom Gordon-like reliever.

If you could get a middle of the order bat and a Gordon-like reliever for Lidge would you?

I'd think for a few minutes and then say no.  I think Lidge can be fixed.  I also think Lidge is very valuable and will prove it before the end of the year.

[Astroholic]

Id say, depends upon who the middle of the order bat is.

[tophfar]

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If you could get a middle of the order bat and a Gordon-like reliever for Lidge would you?

I'd think for a few minutes and then say no.  I think Lidge can be fixed.  I also think Lidge is very valuable and will prove it before the end of the year.

funny, i thought about it for a few minutes, and thought, yeah i think i would.

you could go nieve - gordon-like - wheeler, and then hope to high heaven that qualls handles closer duties.

and berkman gets his help in the middle of the order.

[Jacksonian]

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To suggest that the Astros are in a favorable position come the trade deadline?  If you break a team's trade deadline needs down to offense, starting pitching a relief pitching, the Astros greatest need appears to be solid arms in the bullpen.  The starting pitching is turning it around and the bats are comparable to last year's.  We could all easily rattle off the games that were winnable, only to see the bullpen blow them.   The reason I say this leaves the Astros in a favorable position is that you can find decent relief help a lot easier and a lower price than you'll find a decent bat or a decent starting pitcher around the trade deadline.  Would it be impossible to suggest that the Astros go out and focus their search on solid relief pitching?

Abso-freaking-lutely.  While they need a middle of the lineup bat, that is not going to be a difference maker, IMHO.  I solid bullpen will make a huge difference.  The solution may be from within as well, from a pitcher stepping up to a youngster coming up to an unexpected solution.  Overall, the best solution is to get a proven performer, say a Tom Gordon-like reliever.

If you could get a middle of the order bat and a Gordon-like reliever for Lidge would you?

I'd think for a few minutes and then say no.  I think Lidge can be fixed.  I also think Lidge is very valuable and will prove it before the end of the year.

I agree unless Lidge is hiding an injury. If the Astros want to add experienced players without adding payroll then they'll have to deal someone of value. I thought about it and didn't do much research, but Craig Wilson (is that Anne or Nancy?) and Damaso Marte were who came to mind.  I'd make them take Lane as well.  I'm not sure I'd do it, but with McLane not willing to add to the payroll any deal would have to be a wash salary-wise, and I couldn't think of any heavy hitter making less than Lidge.

[WulawHorn]

Lidge and Ensberg for Gordon, Abreu and David Bell.  That's a lot of salary coming back, but I think the phils would do it. And the astros aren't taking on any rent a players that way.

I think I'd be game.

[Astroholic]

yep, Id do that one for sure, if it were my $$$.

[Jacksonian]

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Lidge and Ensberg for Gordon, Abreu and David Bell.  That's a lot of salary coming back, but I think the phils would do it. And the astros aren't taking on any rent a players that way.

I think I'd be game.

Well dumbass me for trying to think realistically.

[Astroholic]

Yeah, I don't think the Phillies do that either, but I think the Stros would.

[Craig]

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... but Craig Wilson (is that Anne or Nancy?)

Nancy (the skanky blond one).

[JimR]

if they wanted Abreu and his contract, the Astros would have had him the entire year. the deal was done in the off season, but neither team wanted the contract.

[Astroholic]

Think I would do the Wilson trade as well.

[No? in Austin]

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I agree unless Lidge is hiding an injury.

No telling at this point.  History is not on Lidge's side and of course major league scouts talk to each other all the time.  Most of them agree Lidge is an injury waiting to happen because of the funky delivery and also the torque of throwing a slidy so much.  Lidge claims he grips his slider a bit different than most, perhaps more like a cutter fastball.  Either way, some scouts are talking Rob Nenn v.2 with Lidge.  Not good when they have that sort of tag on him.

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If the Astros want to add experienced players without adding payroll then they'll have to deal someone of value. I thought about it and didn't do much research, but Craig Wilson (is that Anne or Nancy?) and Damaso Marte were who came to mind.

I thought about Solomon Torres and Craig Wilson, but at the time, I thought Lidge would be fine and the cost could be Wandy and Lane.  Maybe add a lower level prospect.  You want to give them Lidge and Lane and keep your stinking hands off the prospects.  Nice.  I don't know if I'd do that though.  I still think Lidge can be fixed, but I'm being highly optimistic on that one.

History is not on my side.  Remember Octavio Dotel and how the whispers were that the innings he had logged were eventually going to catch up to him.  Houston traded him just at the right time, but they had to give up John Buck as well.  Still that deal for Carlos Beltran wouldn't have happened had the A's not decided to throw in Teahan.  Craig Wilso is no Carlos Beltran, so I don't know if they'd make such a deal.

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I'd make them take Lane as well.  I'm not sure I'd do it, but with McLane not willing to add to the payroll any deal would have to be a wash salary-wise, and I couldn't think of any heavy hitter making less than Lidge.

Not to mention what Lidge will be making in the near future.  By then, Qualls will definitely be ready.  Heck, he looks ready now.  And if Nieve were to add a nice like changeup to his arsenal, he'd be a dominant closer.  Fernando needs to have that one pitch that will push him over the top as a reliever.  He's really close.

[Astroholic]

I was going to go into the Lidge cost thing.  See I am of the school that a closer is not worth tons of money (see wagner,billy) unless they are really dominate.  I would look to move Lidge as he is still valuable and the stros have some options at closer.  Heck, the stros have several young arms that look ready to go.  About a week ago, I was saying that Wandy should be traded to let some of these young arms have a chance. I think the biggest need for the stros at this point is a 'middle of the line up' type hitter. Wilson somewhat fits the bill.

[Jacksonian]

My primary thought on this was the question of when will Lidge break down?  It's only a matter of time but impossible to predict.  It looks like maybe that time is coming soon but then maybe not.  However, if someone today offered me the choice of Wilson/Marte or Lidge/Lane, I can't say I wouldn't be tempted to go with the former and pray Qualls can close effectively.

Then, there's the 'Roots side.  Why take that deal?  Only thing I can come up with is, if their medical staff determines that Lidge is healthy, they could deal Lidge to another team for someone(s) they really covet. Maybe.

Anyone got some craps to shoot?

[astrox]

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And if Nieve were to add a nice like changeup to his arsenal, he'd be a dominant closer.  Fernando needs to have that one pitch that will push him over the top as a reliever.  He's really close.

I've always wondered about the mentality of a pitcher coming up through the minor leagues.  I would think that your main focus is being a starter.  Then they put you in the bullpen.  Is that a let down?  It seems to me that pitchers who are "supposed" to be starters grumble about being relegated to the bullpen.