bingo bango bongo

[Kit]

It's been somewhat of a dilemma," manager Phil Garner said. "The problem we've had is scoring runs on a consistent basis. Willy's playing good right now. I'd love Willy to be our center fielder.

"The problem is we got to have somebody that's driving in runs.

"Willy's not really a guy that you're asking to drive in runs. He's a singles hitter.

"If everything else is clicking, his job would be to get on base to let somebody else drive him in. The problem is we're not plating the runs."

Taveras admits he wishes he would start and that he believes he should start, but he just vows to "keep playing hard."

Garner is adamant Taveras has done nothing to lose his job.

"Chris has been getting the job done swinging the bat," he said. "I think Willy is a better defensive player and obviously is more comfortable in center field. But we've not been getting our offense on any sort of consistent track. That's the reason."
------------------------------------
everyone clear on that

[HurricaneDavid]

Haha, hilarious.  Although, when you quote something, you should post The Link to it as well.

[homer]

I guess Garner doesn't read the OWA.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
everyone clear on that

Who said anything different?

[HurricaneDavid]

Quote:
Who said anything different?

You've got to be kidding...

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:
Who said anything different?

You've got to be kidding...

Nope.

[pravata]

Quote:
It's been somewhat of a dilemma," manager Phil Garner said. "The problem we've had is scoring runs on a consistent basis. Willy's playing good right now. I'd love Willy to be our center fielder.

"The problem is we got to have somebody that's driving in runs.

"Willy's not really a guy that you're asking to drive in runs. He's a singles hitter.

"If everything else is clicking, his job would be to get on base to let somebody else drive him in. The problem is we're not plating the runs."

Taveras admits he wishes he would start and that he believes he should start, but he just vows to "keep playing hard."

Garner is adamant Taveras has done nothing to lose his job.

"Chris has been getting the job done swinging the bat," he said. "I think Willy is a better defensive player and obviously is more comfortable in center field. But we've not been getting our offense on any sort of consistent track. That's the reason."
------------------------------------
everyone clear on that

This is not new information, since 6/15, The Link Did you miss the "Willy's playing good right now." part?

[HurricaneDavid]

Quote:
Did you miss the "Willy's playing good right now." part?

I'm not finding this quote.

The quote from today specifically says Willy is a better defensive player than Burke, which contradicts the reasoning behind the move from Jim's source.

[tophfar]

Quote:
The quote from today specifically says Willy is a better defensive player than Burke, which contradicts the reasoning behind the move from Jim's source.

no one said burke was better in the absolute sense, defensively than willy.

what WAS said, that his piss poor attitude in improving his defense, since he showed some pretty glaring problems last year, and still this year even after an off season to improve, was the reason he got benched.

a wake up call if you will.

i think its the "killing the astros" part of the quote that gets people.  its being misconstrued as meaning "the reason that the astros are losing games", whereas it can be entirely read differently, especially in the context of the above, as meaning "pissing off the astros management and coaching staff".

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:
Did you miss the "Willy's playing good right now." part?

I'm not finding this quote.

The quote from today specifically says Willy is a better defensive player than Burke, which contradicts the reasoning behind the move from Jim's source.

Nope.  No one, Jim or his source or countless others, *EVER* said that.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
Did you miss the "Willy's playing good right now." part?

I'm not finding this quote.

The quote from today specifically says Willy is a better defensive player than Burke, which contradicts the reasoning behind the move from Jim's source.

Starts with the 22nd word of the first post in this thread.  Jim's source is with the Astros.  You have 2 statements, (which some think are contradictory, they actually are not) one is printed in a newspaper, the other was not.  What is your conclusion?

[HurricaneDavid]

Quote:
What is your conclusion?

Conclusion?  A ridiculous statement by a mystery source, and hair splitting to an infinite degree.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
What is your conclusion?

Conclusion?  A ridiculous statement by a mystery source, and hair splitting to an infinite degree.

That's the best you've got?  I don't understand what is going on therefore I think it's ridiculous and hair splitting?  Well you're a huge waste of time aren't you.

[JimR]

nope. as Andy said, that is the public version of the reason.

defense--WT's, not Burke's.

[HurricaneDavid]

I understand direct quotes that I read.  I don't understand third party interpretations that morph over time.

[JimR]

not at all what i said or what my friend said. it was what adama said, though, Mr. Big Wind. are you adama?

my source is not "mystery" either. PM me if you want.

or you can fuck off and think i'm making it all up. your choice.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
I understand direct quotes that I read.  I don't understand third party interpretations that morph over time.

Nothing from what Jim's source said ever morphed.

Sorry.

[HurricaneDavid]

I didn't say it did.  Jim's interpretation did, however.  First he said defense and only defense, then he said bad attitude and defense.

[shortstop]

At first, you could not have been more clear and definite ... "soley because of defense". Now, you and the group cannot be any more unclear and wishy washy. Do you really mean to say that your gossip said it was soley because of defense, because it was about attitute and offense ... not about defense at all?

Anyway, who cares how you guys spin it now. It was BS last week and BS now.

[JimR]

sure they did. adama morphed them to be "Burke is better on defense than Taveras." i never said that, of course. neither did my friend. now low IQ folks are attributing adama's words to me. how funny.

as i said before, fuck this. private messages from here on if i hear something that is interesting. folks like the Big Wind and kit are too aggravating for words.

[Jacksonian]

Quote:
I didn't say it did.  Jim's interpretation did, however.  First he said defense and only defense, then he said bad attitude and defense.

I didn't read it as changing.  I read it as expounding on a statement.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
I didn't say it did.  Jim's interpretation did, however.  First he said defense and only defense, then he said bad attitude and defense.

But that's not what you just said.  You said "Burkes defense *OVER* Willy Taveras" and no one said that.  Jim's source was talking about Taveras's defense singularily.

And Jim answered "defense solely" in a direct response to Froback that it was "offense and only offense".  It was an understandable reply and one that confuses me why some cannot grasp.

It is not good to leave out context of communication and thus cause this sort of misinterpetation.  Nothing in what Kit posted was ever disputed nor discussed in a form of a disagreement.

I stand by my response.

[pravata]

Quote:
At first, you could not have been more clear and definite ... "soley because of defense". Now, you and the group cannot be any more unclear and wishy washy. Do you really mean to say that your gossip said it was soley because of defense, because it was about attitute and offense ... not about defense at all?

Anyway, who cares how you guys spin it now. It was BS last week and BS now.

You apparently.  In any case, following your "understanding" of the situation, Taveras will be back in center when he starts hitting again; from the bench.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
At first, you could not have been more clear and definite ... "soley because of defense". Now, you and the group cannot be any more unclear and wishy washy. Do you really mean to say that your gossip said it was soley because of defense, because it was about attitute and offense ... not about defense at all?

Anyway, who cares how you guys spin it now. It was BS last week and BS now.

You're next to go.  Want to say your farewell speech now or a bit later today?  We don't discount disagreement, we do have a huge problem with baiting, lying, causing stirs with untruth and such.

You fall in the latter, so don't bother to say we're not about differing opinions... you're not offering any.  You'll be gone before the end of the day.

[shortstop]

Excellent ... as I said before BFD. While you are at it, close down and delete all threads that you don't like or that disagree with you. Yeah, your problem with baiting,misrepresenting, etc .. is that you want to continue your monopoly on it.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Excellent ... as I said before BFD. While you are at it, close down and delete all threads that you don't like or that disagree with you. Yeah, your problem with baiting,misrepresenting, etc .. is that you want to continue your monopoly on it.

Man, you could've done better than this!  At least other trolls post manifestos on free speech and first ammendment rights followed by personal liberties... and Mom's apple pie.

Yours is a sad farewell.  Oh well, goodbye!

[JimR]

the debate at that time was offense v. defense. his bad attitude was part of the latter, and his offense was NO part of the move.

i am amazed at the effort to discredit this information. it is not my original information. i am repeating verbatim what someone told me, and that someone's credentials are beyond reproach. those of you who think you are somehow exposing me need lives.

[JimR]

shortstop, before you go--fuck you.

just one more troll here to agitate.

[hostros7]

As someone who primarily reads on here, I have to say I am unhappy with these new people who like to stir shit up because they are bored at work or after summer camp gets out.  

I dont know jim, and I dont know what he did/does.  I think I read something about him coaching first base at UT the other day.  Regardless, he and any other people who have enjoyed posting/reading on here for quite some time are not on here trying to impress you worthless posters and lurkers and build up some internet cult following by fabricating knowledge and information.  Just leave it alone. If you want to have a baseball discussion, then do so. Don't point fingers and call people liars.  

imo, if you are such a discerning skeptic, you should probably place less weight on sound byte jotted down in the chronicle by a manager who's primary goals are righting the ship and staying positive

[Jacksonian]

Quote:
the debate at that time was offense v. defense. his bad attitude was part of the latter, and his offense was NO part of the move.

My take on the sequence: Willy's bad defense leads to Burke getting a try -> Willy's attitude was part of his defensive problems -> the stupid misread, trolls stir -> hundred useless posts -> SPACK!

And, I wouldn't be surprised to see Spack around these parts again.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Don't point fingers and call people liars.

This is what has become the norm with some around here and it's then called "a difference of opinion".  What happened recently was that instead of just calling a person a liar and owning up to doing so, they then start to twist the words of another person and say "You said...." and then add whatever untruth you want in there.

It's not about Jim either, no one needs to defend a man who can defend himself very well.  What we need to do as a whole is defend how we want this place to be in terms of integrity at the very least.  And I do mean at the very least.  Does it matter?  Yes, it does.

One day the guy having his words twisted into pretzels and then called a liar because of it may be anyone in the TZ, from innocent Clark to grizzled veteran pope.

And it's just not going to happen here, even if we have to get rid of more people to make the point stick!  And there are plenty of trolls lurking who think it's fair game to come in and stir shite because we were reasonable to a fault.  When it got vicious in terms of lies and distortions, it's no longer batting practice with Clarks of this kind.  It's expulsion and not an eye will be blinked in doing so.

[pravata]

Quote:
As someone who primarily reads on here, I have to say I am unhappy with these new people who like to stir shit up because they are bored at work or after summer camp gets out.  

I dont know jim, and I dont know what he did/does.  I think I read something about him coaching first base at UT the other day.  Regardless, he and any other people who have enjoyed posting/reading on here for quite some time are not on here trying to impress you worthless posters and lurkers and build up some internet cult following by fabricating knowledge and information.  Just leave it alone. If you want to have a baseball discussion, then do so. Don't point fingers and call people liars.  

imo, if you are such a discerning skeptic, you should probably place less weight on sound byte jotted down in the chronicle by a manager who's primary goals are righting the ship and staying positive

Warrantless skepticism.  Happens all the time.  Many people have no idea how to judge the reliability of information.  There is a hierarchy of proof that can be applied.  However that takes work.  "I don't believe that" or "people don't ever say what they mean in a newspaper article" are common erasure phrases to allow unfettered opinion to masquerade as analysis.  When this type of bullshit accumulates it drives out legitimate information.

[Lefty]

Quote:
What we need to do as a whole is defend how we want this place to be in terms of integrity at the very least.  And I do mean at the very least.  Does it matter?  Yes, it does.

My favorite adama quote from the spack'd thread:  "I'm not calling jim a liar, I just don't believe him."

Sad to see an excellent source of info vaporize - if that's the case - due to this kind of crap.  Understandable though.

[Phil_in_CS]

As another person who mostly reads here, a good question is why is it so hard to see attitude and performance linked?

I don't manage pro ball players, but I do manage computer programmers, and in that field it is impossible to separate attitude and performance. I don't see how players would be different.

Someone needs to improve, you let them know that, they get an attitude with you rather than working at what they need to improve on. Pretty basic stuff, and sure isn't limited to ball players. In a nutshell that's what was said about Willy. The only real punitive option was to sit him, so they did that. Time served, he's back on the field.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[pravata]

Quote:
As another person who mostly reads here, a good question is why is it so hard to see attitude and performance linked?

I don't manage pro ball players, but I do manage computer programmers, and in that field it is impossible to separate attitude and performance. I don't see how players would be different.

Someone needs to improve, you let them know that, they get an attitude with you rather than working at what they need to improve on. Pretty basic stuff, and sure isn't limited to ball players. In a nutshell that's what was said about Willy. The only real punitive option was to sit him, so they did that. Time served, he's back on the field.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Because it can't be measured.  Taveras' troubles probably began in mid May, the make up against the Giants.  He misplayed a couple balls, one of which showed up as triple in the box score.  I think that was the beginning of his benching.   I think he's back now because of Biggio's injury issues.

[das]

That's too bad.  I enjoy the sporadic peeks into the MLB world that come from your keyboard.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
It's been somewhat of a dilemma," manager Phil Garner said. "The problem we've had is scoring runs on a consistent basis. Willy's playing good right now. I'd love Willy to be our center fielder.

"The problem is we got to have somebody that's driving in runs.

"Willy's not really a guy that you're asking to drive in runs. He's a singles hitter.

"If everything else is clicking, his job would be to get on base to let somebody else drive him in. The problem is we're not plating the runs."

Taveras admits he wishes he would start and that he believes he should start, but he just vows to "keep playing hard."

Garner is adamant Taveras has done nothing to lose his job.

"Chris has been getting the job done swinging the bat," he said. "I think Willy is a better defensive player and obviously is more comfortable in center field. But we've not been getting our offense on any sort of consistent track. That's the reason."

I have some questions about the heirarchy of information. Had we never heard what Jim posted from his source, what conclusions would we be able to draw from the above quotes?

I don't disbelieve Jim in the least. In my experience, he is as straight a shooter as it comes, and there is also every reason to believe him that he has connections in the know.

And I also recognize that Garner can't come out and say that Willy's bad attitude and refusal to work on his defense are keeping him on the bench.

Finally, there is certainly a way to reconcile what Jim reported, as well as Garner's quotes, although it does take some piecing together.

But, that being the case, are we supposed to read oracle bones to figure out how to interpret what Garner says that gets quoted in the newspaper?

Seems to me that a lot of people are legitimately questioning why they shouldn't believe the information that's right in front of them.

[JimR]

believe what you want to believe, legitimately or not.

[MikeyBoy]

Quote:
The quote from today specifically says Willy is a better defensive player than Burke, which contradicts the reasoning behind the move from Jim's source.

You are really having trouble with the difference between "Willy T is playing bad defense" and "Willy T is a bad defender", aren't you? Or is it that you can't see the fact that he was playing crappy defense, therefore his poor play doesn't exist?

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
believe what you want to believe, legitimately or not.

If you had never heard what you did from your source, and you read what Garner says in the paper, what would your conclusion be?

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:
believe what you want to believe, legitimately or not.

If you had never heard what you did from your source, and you read what Garner says in the paper, what would your conclusion be?

From the quotes:

"Chris has been getting the job done swinging the bat," he said. "I think Willy is a better defensive player and obviously is more comfortable in center field. But we've not been getting our offense on any sort of consistent track. That's the reason."

The "reason" Garner is referring to is NOT about benching Willy.  The "reason" Garner is referring to is about Willy getting his job back.  Big difference.  However, what was discussed before was why Willy lost his job!  Why compare apples to grapefruits?

[HurricaneDavid]

Quote:
The "reason" Garner is referring to is NOT about benching Willy.  The "reason" Garner is referring to is about Willy getting his job back.

Huh?  I read that the "reason" is Burke's offense is better.

[MusicMan]

Quote:

Quote:
The "reason" Garner is referring to is NOT about benching Willy.  The "reason" Garner is referring to is about Willy getting his job back.

Huh?  I read that the "reason" is Burke's offense is better.

Willfully obtuse.

Burke's offense at the time he was put in the lineup was unexpected.  It's also better than any other option right now, which is like saying that I'm better looking than Cro Magnon Man.

Burke's offense has nothing to do with why he was put in the lineup.  That he stays in the lineup is a whole different ballgame.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Didn't Spack nuke this same fucking discussion last week?  Maybe I'm having a "Groundhog Day" moment.  I hate when that happens.

Jim, how does one get on this PM list if we enjoy/appreciate the info you hear/receive?

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Burke's offense has nothing to do with why he was put in the lineup.  That he stays in the lineup is a whole different ballgame.

Gosh, is Garner this hard to understand?  That is eggszactly what he's saying... good job MM.  BTW - Jim's source said Willy's lack of dedication to getting better on defense was killing the Astros and thus the reason he landed on the pine.  Burke isn't better on defense, but he's the option.  And he took his opportunity like he was Lou Gehrig to Willy's Wally Pipp.  That is an outcome not a reason for Burke's continued starting play and Willy's continued bench time.

As he's been told and has been relayed in here: Willy now is the in the position to have to wait for his opportunity, not have it handed back to him.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Didn't Spack nuke this same fucking discussion last week?  Maybe I'm having a "Groundhog Day" moment.  I hate when that happens.

Yes, but for much more reasons than just obtuse-ity!

[Russ99]

I'm getting a bit disturbed with Garner moving around and benching the younger players. If these guys can't play a regular position, send them down to AAA so they can play everyday.  This constant state of flux can't be helping the ballclub and is certainly not helping the development of the younger guys.

Oh, and can we trade Preston Wilson for somebody? His lack of effort and constant K's are getting frustrating. He's the poster boy not driving in runs lately.

[JimR]

wrong thread

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Oh, and can we trade Preston Wilson for somebody? His lack of effort and constant K's are getting frustrating. He's the poster boy not driving in runs lately.

Either my sarcasm meter is broken, or you just posted a verbatim imitation of an AM radio call.

If he were as frustrating as you say, what would that make his trade value?

I doubt you realize, however, that Wilson is batting .319/.347/.484 in June.

And I'm not sure how you know what kind of effort he's exerting.

[CJM]

Quote:
I'm getting a bit disturbed with Garner moving around and benching the younger players. If these guys can't play a regular position, send them down to AAA so they can play everyday.  This constant state of flux can't be helping the ballclub and is certainly not helping the development of the younger guys.

Oh, and can we trade Preston Wilson for somebody? His lack of effort and constant K's are getting frustrating. He's the poster boy not driving in runs lately.

He has 16 Ks in June.  He cut his strikeout totals in half from last month (33 Ks in May).  For the season he has a .307 BA w/RISP, and with RISP and 2 outs he's hitting .350/.381/.525.  Who would you want to trade him for?

[astro pete]

Quote:

Quote:
I'm getting a bit disturbed with Garner moving around and benching the younger players. If these guys can't play a regular position, send them down to AAA so they can play everyday.  This constant state of flux can't be helping the ballclub and is certainly not helping the development of the younger guys.

Oh, and can we trade Preston Wilson for somebody? His lack of effort and constant K's are getting frustrating. He's the poster boy not driving in runs lately.

He has 16 Ks in June.  He cut his strikeout totals in half from last month (33 Ks in May).  For the season he has a .307 BA w/RISP, and with RISP and 2 outs he's hitting .350/.381/.525.  Who would you want to trade him for?

There are far too many problems with this offense--Ensberg and Lane--to complain about Wilson, our second or third most productive hitter in the lineup.  But if radio caller wants to complain, at least complain about something legitimate.  Like, maybe he isn't hitting as many home runs as projected.  If you complain about his K's, it just shows that you had no idea who Preston Wilson was prior to 2006; the strikeouts are a surprise to nobody who's paying attention.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

Oh, and can we trade Preston Wilson for somebody? His lack of effort and constant K's are getting frustrating. He's the poster boy not driving in runs lately.

Wow.  In the last 15 games, Wilson has struck out 8 times and driven in 11 runs.  In that same period, Morgan Ensberg has struck out 11 times and driven in 2 runs.  And yet you see Wilson as the "poster boy" for recent futility?  Unbeleivable.

[MusicMan]

I would attribute the Wilson-bashing to racism, but I'm not sure it's accompanied by enough game-watching to actaully know what color PW is, so I'll refrain.

[Bench]

Quote:

Quote:

Oh, and can we trade Preston Wilson for somebody? His lack of effort and constant K's are getting frustrating. He's the poster boy not driving in runs lately.

Wow.  In the last 15 games, Wilson has struck out 8 times and driven in 11 runs.  In that same period, Morgan Ensberg has struck out 11 times and driven in 2 runs.  And yet you see Wilson as the "poster boy" for recent futility?  Unbeleivable.

Preston has been the most money player on the road. When he comes up with 2 outs and a runner in scoring position, he seems to get a bunch of hits to the opposite field.

I've found myself hoping that Morgan won't hit into a DP just so Preston will have a chance to do it again, as that's about the best I can hope from him right now.

The people who are singling out Preston are way off the actual problems of the team.

[Holly]

Just how intentional was the  title  of this thread? (I had one of those... darned rubber drumheads split too easily.)

[MikeyBoy]

Quote:
I'm getting a bit disturbed with Garner moving around and benching the younger players. If these guys can't play a regular position, send them down to AAA so they can play everyday.  This constant state of flux can't be helping the ballclub and is certainly not helping the development of the younger guys.

By younger players you mean Taveras, right? The reason(s) Taveras has been spending time on the bench has been well documented and discussed on the TZ over the last couple of weeks, look it up.

Quote:
Oh, and can we trade Preston Wilson for somebody? His lack of effort and constant K's are getting frustrating. He's the poster boy not driving in runs lately.

Preston was second behind Berkman in RBIs in June.

[Phil_in_CS]

Quote:
Just how intentional was the  title  of this thread? (I had one of those... darned rubber drumheads split too easily.)

How did I miss getting one of those!?
I've got a marble madness (well, officially its my little girls) but it doesn't have the drums or the lever operated thingis.
I need one of those for my office.

[strosrays]

Quote:
As someone who primarily reads on here, I have to say I am unhappy with these new people who like to stir shit up because they are bored at work or after summer camp gets out.

"They" in the same sense that Craig Biggio uses "we".