Author Topic: Willy  (Read 13110 times)

jaklewein

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Willy
« on: June 19, 2006, 10:27:14 pm »
With Lamb and Burke playing well, Willy seems to be stuck in nuetral on the bench.  At what point does management start entertaining the idea of sending him back to AAA to work on his game?  There was a time when they had plans for him to become a switch hitter.  I often wonder what type of player he'd of been if he'd of had all of last year to do just that instead of being rushed to the majors.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2006, 01:27:53 am »
Quote:

With Lamb and Burke playing well, Willy seems to be stuck in nuetral on the bench.  At what point does management start entertaining the idea of sending him back to AAA to work on his game?  There was a time when they had plans for him to become a switch hitter.  I often wonder what type of player he'd of been if he'd of had all of last year to do just that instead of being rushed to the majors.




The general consensus this spring was that Willy shouldn't get buried on the ML bench because he needed at-bats.  I'd imagine that when the day comes that Gar acknowledges that Willy has lost his starting job he might be considered to be sent down.  But from what I've read, that day hasn't come.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2006, 01:40:30 am »
Burke has been playing well but his play in center has been a drop off at times I think.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2006, 10:35:03 am »
Burke was very bad in CF Sunday, but Willy has been bad all year, apparently, in management's view.
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jaklewein

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Re: Willy
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2006, 11:01:47 am »
Well, does anyone know if the idea of Willy picking up switch hitting is still a consideration?  I guess what I'm asking is if they decided to have him try and take on switch hitting again...would they effectively be taking him away from the major league team for the rest of the year?...or could he just jump right back in as a full time right-handed hitter again should they need him at the MLB level due to significant injury.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2006, 11:04:10 am »
I don't think Willy's defense is the issue.  I think there are no doubts Willy is a better defensive CFer than Burke.  The reason for the move and the reason it has stuck, is that the offense was a mess and recently with the two moves of Lamb to #2 hole and Burke to the #3 has jumpstarted the offense.  In baseball you ride things while they are working until they stop working.

In a month Willy might be back in the line-up along with both Lane and Wilson and Lamb and Burke will go back to the bench.  You just never know.  Having the ability and willingness to be flexible is something the Astros have to be at times given the streaky offense this team has displayed time and again the last couple of years.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2006, 11:04:20 am »
are you listening? bad on defense. what does switch-hitting have to do with that?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2006, 11:05:17 am »
Quote:

Burke was very bad in CF Sunday, but Willy has been bad all year, apparently, in management's view.




Burke also showed his inexperience Friday when he went all the way to the wall for a ball that hit 6 feet high and bounced back over him.

Not incidentally, Wilson played that ball horribly as well - the two of them turned it into a triple.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2006, 11:10:37 am »
Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2006, 11:12:56 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Burke was very bad in CF Sunday, but Willy has been bad all year, apparently, in management's view.




Burke also showed his inexperience Friday when he went all the way to the wall for a ball that hit 6 feet high and bounced back over him.

Not incidentally, Wilson played that ball horribly as well - the two of them turned it into a triple.





Yes, and while it's not a lock to happen, I'd hope that plays like that can be characterized as happening from a lack of experience at the position, and therefore will be seen less frequently as time moves on.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 11:14:08 am »
Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




If that is true (and I certainly am not going to doubt given my lack of "inside" knowledge), then it would seem wise to call up Jimerson and send Willy down.  Jimerson can certainly play CF, and has speed for PR if needed and while he will air-condition MMP if given many ABs, at least when he hits the ball he does so with authority.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2006, 11:14:45 am »
This may just be a temporary issue, with Burke replacing Taveras in the lineup, but it's going to take Burke falling flat on offense for it to happen.  They lived with Taveras' misqueues in CF throughout the season last year, granted most were minor.  I didn't see the game Sunday, so I didn't see how bad Burke was, but he was more than adequate previously.  

I've now read about "attitude" and "sloppy defense" as factors in Taveras sitting the bench.  If he doesn't get straight in the head, he may find himself in AAA just so Houston can get someone else on the major league roster who will contribute.  It's a shame, he has alot of talent.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2006, 11:16:45 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Burke was very bad in CF Sunday, but Willy has been bad all year, apparently, in management's view.




Burke also showed his inexperience Friday when he went all the way to the wall for a ball that hit 6 feet high and bounced back over him.

Not incidentally, Wilson played that ball horribly as well - the two of them turned it into a triple.




Yes, and while it's not a lock to happen, I'd hope that plays like that can be characterized as happening from a lack of experience at the position, and therefore will be seen less frequently as time moves on.




I am going to make a bold prediction that none of the Astros opening day OFers from this year are in the opening day OF next year (and at least two will not be on the team either, maybe all 3).  I think Burke will be in the OF next year assuming Biggio is still playing everyday.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2006, 11:17:24 am »
crazy talk. Jimerson is having his first taste of success. imo, that is a desperation move.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2006, 11:21:11 am »
Quote:

are you listening? bad on defense. what does switch-hitting have to do with that?




It doesn't have anything to do with it (defense)...in my first post I asked if there was a chance Willy would be sent down to AAA?...and if so, I asked if there was a chance that he might be instructed to pick up switch hitting again.  That's all.

I'm curious because I think such a move might make one heck of a difference in his offensive numbers.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2006, 11:23:52 am »
Quote:

crazy talk. Jimerson is having his first taste of success. imo, that is a desperation move.




To your point, Scott's had a couple years worth of success in the minors now...any word on whether he's turned the corner with his attitude, etc?  I continue to hope that he gets another shot in the majors.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2006, 11:25:52 am »
Quote:

Quote:

are you listening? bad on defense. what does switch-hitting have to do with that?




It doesn't have anything to do with it (defense)...in my first post I asked if there was a chance Willy would be sent down to AAA?...and if so, I asked if there was a chance that he might be instructed to pick up switch hitting again.  That's all.

I'm curious because I think such a move might make one heck of a difference in his offensive numbers.





Yes, he could suck from two sides of the plate instead of one.

They should focus on having him hit the right way from the right side.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2006, 11:29:11 am »
Which is probably why it hasn't happened.  If anyone gets a call up, Scott might merit a callup.  But the minor league monitors over in other forum would know better. From previous comments about Scott not giving full effort, he may not be an option, not even considering the tendonitis he has in his shoulder.  

Something Purpura said the other day didn't sound kosher.  He commented about the difficulty of not just finding a better bat but where to put them on the field, with the current lineup.  The other thing he stated was that the Astros payroll , while not officially capped by McLane, was "responsibly" max'd.  While both issues may be true, they also serve as outstanding bargaining positions given Houston's wealth of young pitchers.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2006, 11:29:45 am »
he is not a CFer. are you just grab-bagging random thoughts? i thought the topic was CF, but i could have dozed off.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2006, 12:12:26 pm »
Jeez I'd say rather easily
Willy better defensively than Burke
Burke better offensively than Willy

Willy could greatly benefit from batting left to utilize his speed more..
Remember Jesus Alou being called out of the 1st base coaching box to pinch-hit a double vs. the Reds in '79 I think, to win a crucial game, and he patted Morgan on top of the head (ala Benny Hill w/the little bald guy) and Little Joe got pissed.....yeah,that was great.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2006, 12:26:13 pm »
so, you think it is pretty easy to hit from your other side in MLB when you have NEVER done it before in a game at any level? how long will it take you do become proficient at that?

more crazy talk. they have changed Burke's hitting approach. i imagine they can change Willy too if he will listen.
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MusicMan

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Re: Willy
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2006, 12:42:52 pm »
Quote:

Willy could greatly benefit from batting left to utilize his speed more..




Repeat after me:

"You can't steal first base"
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Re: Willy
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2006, 12:45:26 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Willy could greatly benefit from batting left to utilize his speed more..




Repeat after me:

"You can't steal first base"





And if you do, they'll just make you put it back out there.
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MusicMan

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Re: Willy
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2006, 12:55:30 pm »
"Not true", says Lloyd McLendon.
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HurricaneDavid

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Re: Willy
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2006, 01:15:06 pm »
Quote:

i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense.




I don't understand this at all.  Willy's range and arm are undeniably better than Burke's.  He may have misjudged a few fly balls, but so has Burke.

How many instances have there been this season where a Taveras mis-play have led to runs?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2006, 01:23:44 pm »
I would also benefit from swinging my clubs lefthanded to invoke a slice on dogleg left.  Maybe I'll start practicing that this weekend and see if I can be effective sometime in the next decade...

Dude is 25 years old.  There is a reason why the "learning to switch hit" experiment fails 99% of the time.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2006, 01:52:27 pm »
Quote:

I would also benefit from swinging my clubs lefthanded to invoke a slice on dogleg left.  Maybe I'll start practicing that this weekend and see if I can be effective sometime in the next decade...




Have you ever tried to hit a golf ball with a left-handed club? If you watched me try to do it you'd swear I had some sort of degenerative muscular affliction. I am actually more comfortable hitting a baseball left-handed, but a golf swing? It's hopeless; forget it. I mean, I can barely make contact. I wonder why that is.
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Kit

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Re: Willy
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2006, 02:39:55 pm »
Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




Here is your crazy talk my friend....a big load of bs...if Willy had been hitting he would still be in center I don't give a crap what your inside source told you.

and I didn't suggest the switch hitting thing...this was from the Stros during Spring Training 2005.... it was said if he hadn't made the roster he was going to Round Rock with the idea of getting some LH instruction (I AM surprised myself that THEY suggested this if he hadn't hit LH at any level) are you sure? ....and no I didn't say it would be easy at all..but bunts and nubbers are his game..its not too much of a stretch especially if the ASTROS think he might be able to do it LH...and he could work on his defense in the process(lol)


ala Ralph Garr
Remember Jesus Alou being called out of the 1st base coaching box to pinch-hit a double vs. the Reds in '79 I think, to win a crucial game, and he patted Morgan on top of the head (ala Benny Hill w/the little bald guy) and Little Joe got pissed.....yeah,that was great.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2006, 02:39:55 pm »
i'll tell you what, David, i'll get him on the phone, and you can tell him he is wrong. he spent all day with Tal Smith the day he told me that. reject it if you want.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2006, 02:47:31 pm »
right. you know better than "inside sources." you and the voices in your head.

yes, i am sure. Willy took BP LH in RR during AA, but he never hit LH in a game. he was going to hit LH in the AFL, but an injury kept him away. then he went to MLB the next spring, and the switch-hitting experiment was no more.

Ralph Garr was a LH hitter. Willy Taveras is a RH hitter. all he has to do to hit MLB pitching LH is to turn around, right?

crazy talk.

he lost his job b/c of defense, not offense, and that is a fact. believe it or not. your choice.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2006, 02:54:35 pm »
yes, i am sure. Willy took BP LH in RR during AA, but he never hit LH in a game. he was going to hit LH in the AFL, but an injury kept him away. then he went to MLB the next spring, and the switch-hitting experiment was no more.

Well there you go.....thanks for proving me right
Remember Jesus Alou being called out of the 1st base coaching box to pinch-hit a double vs. the Reds in '79 I think, to win a crucial game, and he patted Morgan on top of the head (ala Benny Hill w/the little bald guy) and Little Joe got pissed.....yeah,that was great.

Kit

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Re: Willy
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2006, 02:59:45 pm »
Willy Taveras is a RH hitter. all he has to do to hit MLB pitching LH is to turn around, right?

crazy talk.
------------------------------------
Yes it is and you said it not I.
Remember Jesus Alou being called out of the 1st base coaching box to pinch-hit a double vs. the Reds in '79 I think, to win a crucial game, and he patted Morgan on top of the head (ala Benny Hill w/the little bald guy) and Little Joe got pissed.....yeah,that was great.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2006, 03:01:34 pm »
right about what???????????????????????????????? the RR days are common knowledge, but that experiment never got to a game and was dropped two years ago. it is not the answer now.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2006, 03:04:54 pm »
he lost his job b/c of defense, not offense, and that is a fact. believe it or not. your choice.
-------------------------------

its not a fact, its an opinion and one I don't believe
Remember Jesus Alou being called out of the 1st base coaching box to pinch-hit a double vs. the Reds in '79 I think, to win a crucial game, and he patted Morgan on top of the head (ala Benny Hill w/the little bald guy) and Little Joe got pissed.....yeah,that was great.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2006, 03:06:51 pm »
not my opinion at all. it is what i was told by someone who knows. i could not care less what you believe or do not believe.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2006, 03:10:15 pm »
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

True
Remember Jesus Alou being called out of the 1st base coaching box to pinch-hit a double vs. the Reds in '79 I think, to win a crucial game, and he patted Morgan on top of the head (ala Benny Hill w/the little bald guy) and Little Joe got pissed.....yeah,that was great.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2006, 03:10:40 pm »
Quote:

he lost his job b/c of defense, not offense, and that is a fact. believe it or not. your choice.




I haven't seen many games on TV this season - does he have some bad habits (bad routes, throwing decisions, etc.) that management think will eventually catch up with him?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2006, 03:14:52 pm »
Quote:

Often wrong, but never in doubt.

True





Are you aware that he got this information from the people who are making this decision?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2006, 03:16:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

he lost his job b/c of defense, not offense, and that is a fact. believe it or not. your choice.




I haven't seen many games on TV this season - does he have some bad habits (bad routes, throwing decisions, etc.) that management think will eventually catch up with him?





Yes all of the above.  Plus some others that are in the etc.  Plus from what little I have heard he is not as coachable as you would like in a young guy with things to still work out.

But all that can change if the player will.  I recall a time when the Astros brass was not pleased with Burke and his progression/projections and all that has changed in the last year.  I would have to believe that the change happened because Burke has changed but that is a bit speculative by me.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2006, 03:16:58 pm »
the opinion i heard--which kit traillllllssssss dismisses because the voices in his head say otherwise--is that he has no instincts as an OFer. nothing wrong with his arm, but he takes poor lines and angles to the ball, he turns the wrong way, he misjudges the flight of the ball and he makes many missteps. we were there the day they put Burke in CF, and my source--who does not know anywhere near as much as kit--told me that Willy's defense and his "i have it made" attitude had gotten him benched.

MarkR was there and heard what i heard. he can confirm or deny the accuracy of what i have stated and the quality of the source.

Froback--exactly. his rookie success apparently went to his head. my source said: "WT thinks he has it made."
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Re: Willy
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2006, 03:21:29 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Often wrong, but never in doubt.

True





Are you aware that he got this information from the people who are making this decision?





*Pshhh*, the people making decisions aren't in the know either.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2006, 03:25:14 pm »
Quote:

nothing wrong with his arm, but he takes poor lines and angles to the ball, he turns the wrong way, he misjudges the flight of the ball and he makes many missteps.




This makes more sense than the "killing the Astros with bad defense" line.

Quote:

Willy's defense and his "i have it made" attitude had gotten him benched.




So then his defense WASN'T the sole issue.
"Ground ball right side, they're not gonna be able to turn two OR ARE THEY, THROW, IS IN TIME!!! WHAT AN UNBELIEVABLE TURN BY BRUNTLETT AND EVERETT, AND THEY CUT DOWN MABRY TO END THE GAME, AND THE ASTROS LEAD THIS NATIONAL LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES THREE GAMES TO ONE!!!!!"

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Re: Willy
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2006, 03:26:24 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Often wrong, but never in doubt.

True





Are you aware that he got this information from the people who are making this decision?




*Pshhh*, the people making decisions aren't in the know either.



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Re: Willy
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2006, 03:27:18 pm »
Quote:

he lost his job b/c of defense, not offense, and that is a fact. believe it or not. your choice.




I believe it. Taveras' defense is puzzling, he has improved his jumps / routes and his speed puts him in position to make a play on a lot balls, but he seems to lose his focus on the ball somewhere in flight, or at least he does not always watch the ball into his glove. On balls hit on the ground he often watches the runner and bobbles the ball, sometimes resulting in the runner scoring. I think it's a concentration issue, which is probably why the Astros are not pleased. I can almost hear Garner tell Willy when he runs into the dugout after one of his one handed, below the head catches of a routine fly ball. "Nice catch Taveras, don't ever fucking do it again."
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Re: Willy
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2006, 03:31:04 pm »
Quote:


Protecting Derek Bell over Bobby Abreu





They didn't protect Bell over Abreu, they protected Hidalgo over Abreu.

Quote:


Not putting Santanna on the 40 man





I guess they should have left Roy Oswalt unprotected then.

Quote:


Well sometimes they are not.





Glad to know you can see the future.  Any stock tips?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2006, 03:32:23 pm »
Jeez H, just having some fun.  I know why they made the choices they did.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2006, 03:34:27 pm »
of course, David, you also know better. that "line" is a direct quote.

defense and not being coachable enough to get better got him benched. NOT offense.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2006, 03:35:03 pm »
Quote:

Jeez H, just having some fun.  I know why they made the choices they did.





Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.  No doubt management has made mistakes.  Hunsicker calls leaving Abreu unprotected his biggest regret as GM.  It just bothers me when people look at things like that and say "see, management are idiots.  I obviously know more than they do because I can see that Abreu is better than Hidalgo and they can't".
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2006, 03:46:18 pm »
When did I say I knew better?  I said I didn't understand the "killing" quote.  Your subsequent post makes it clearer.  The only time that I remember Willy directly "killing" the Astros with bad defense was the third game in DC last year, which interestingly enough, you shrugged off  when brought up a few weeks ago.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2006, 03:52:35 pm »
Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




Wow ...

I reacall a thread when I first registered where the Popes here and the Real Men of Genious were raving about Willy T's defense, even went so far as to say Willy T was the Astros MVP because of his defense in CF. Even futher than that ... they said the Astro pitchers pitched to get opponents to hit the ball to Willy in CF because of his defensive prowess. I said Willy T had some good tools (arm, speed) but was nowhere near the team MVP ... he had a lot to learn about playing CF in the pros and that if he did not find a way to contribute more to the offense, would find his way out of here like so many other one dimensional speedy CFs.

Of course, I was called clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up. Now that your "inside source" says otherwise, you guys have done an about face.  Ha!

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Re: Willy
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2006, 03:55:04 pm »
Quote:


Of course, I was called clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up. Now that your "inside source" says otherwise, you guys have done an about face.  Ha!





You are so full of shit.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2006, 03:55:32 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Jeez H, just having some fun.  I know why they made the choices they did.





Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.  No doubt management has made mistakes.  Hunsicker calls leaving Abreu unprotected his biggest regret as GM.  It just bothers me when people look at things like that and say "see, management are idiots.  I obviously know more than they do because I can see that Abreu is better than Hidalgo and they can't".




I hear ya, and agree.  I trust management a little too much at times, figuring they ought to know alot more about things than me.  And at the time Hidalgo did look alot further along and Abreu has even admitted that choice by the Astros was a wake-up call to him.  But for every bad choice they have made they have made many good ones too, like trading Robertson for Taveras and Scott or even the over used Bagwell example.

I am anxiously awaiting the choices that will have to be made soon about some of our minor league talent that is knocking on the door (or soon will be).  While I know it is never a good thing to do major overhaul with rookies, I could see quite a few pushing for ML jobs starting next season.  Especially is Pettitte and Clemens ride off into the sunset together.... Damn you Brokeback Mountain for turning that image into such a negative comment!  It wasn't meant to be.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2006, 03:57:43 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


Of course, I was called clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up. Now that your "inside source" says otherwise, you guys have done an about face.  Ha!





You are so full of shit.





Good one.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2006, 03:58:51 pm »
Quote:


I am anxiously awaiting the choices that will have to be made soon about some of our minor league talent that is knocking on the door (or soon will be).  While I know it is never a good thing to do major overhaul with rookies, I could see quite a few pushing for ML jobs starting next season.  





This is always a dilemma for successful teams.  Having good players at the Major League level means that you will not always have room for talented youngsters.  Consequently, many end up traded or risk being exposed to Rule 5 and such.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2006, 03:59:59 pm »
ah, the stalker reappears. what is posted here, dumbass, is what i was told on 6/3/06.

i think Astros pitchers do try to make hitters hit the ball to CF...BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE PARK IS HUGE, not because of who is playing CF. do you think that if you were in CF, they'd tried to induce balls hit down the line? what a stupid comment.

you are so fucking interested in slamming the people here that you cannot express a rational thought...if you ever could. i am Spack, you know. i will ban you if you do not start to play nice. immediately.

now, fuck off.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2006, 04:00:51 pm »
Quote:

...clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up.




You forgot whiner.  The fact, and it is a fact, notwithstanding the increasing percentage of posters on this board who think their opinions are more important than facts, that Burke is replacing Taveras because of his defense proves the significance that the Astros place on centerfield defense.  If you'd quit soiling your diapers long enough to remember the argument had nothing to do with Taveras specifically but with the fact that he provided a significant improvement in centerfield defense.  Any player who can provide that will be one of the most important players on the Astros.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2006, 04:01:48 pm »
Its never a real thread until one of the stalker-douches pokes his head in to let everyone know that he said whatever is being discussed 6 months ago.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2006, 04:02:58 pm »
Quote:


i think Astros pitchers do try to make hitters hit the ball to CF...BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE PARK IS HUGE, not because of who is playing CF. do you think that if you were in CF, they'd tried to induce balls hit down the line? what a stupid comment.





It's just easier to make shit up to support your childish whining.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2006, 04:03:02 pm »
Quote:

This is always a dilemma for successful teams.  Having good players at the Major League level means that you will not always have room for talented youngsters.  Consequently, many end up traded or risk being exposed to Rule 5 and such.



Thus my anxiousness.  I could see 2 guys we have not seen this year yet being in the starting rotation next season as well as 2 or 3 hitters who should fight for at least a bench if not start spot next year too.  And that is just the tip of the iceberg.  We have quite a few pitching prospects that are doing extreemly well this year so far, and we have only seen a few in Houston (Buchholz, Sampson, Nieve).

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Re: Willy
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2006, 04:06:42 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




Wow ...

I reacall a thread when I first registered where the Popes here and the Real Men of Genious were raving about Willy T's defense, even went so far as to say Willy T was the Astros MVP because of his defense in CF. Even futher than that ... they said the Astro pitchers pitched to get opponents to hit the ball to Willy in CF because of his defensive prowess. I said Willy T had some good tools (arm, speed) but was nowhere near the team MVP ... he had a lot to learn about playing CF in the pros and that if he did not find a way to contribute more to the offense, would find his way out of here like so many other one dimensional speedy CFs.

Of course, I was called clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up. Now that your "inside source" says otherwise, you guys have done an about face.  Ha!





1.  If you want to mock the "Genious[es]" (sic), then you might want to learn to spell "genius".

2.  You said yourself above:
"if he did not find a way to contribute more to the offense, would find his way out of here like so many other one dimensional speedy CFs."
Please point to where the point as been made that Taveras is on the bench due to his offense.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2006, 04:07:32 pm »
Quote:

he takes poor lines and angles to the ball, he turns the wrong way, he misjudges the flight of the ball and he makes many missteps.




Willy Taveras, meet Roger Cedeno.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2006, 04:09:08 pm »
Mark and i have this conversation about every other night in RR--what is going to happen to guys like Huffman (who is killing the ball), Conrad, Scott and Jimerson? or Giminez and Quintero? are they going to waste their best days in AAA? are they going to be part of a trade package? this is not a bad problem to have, but you know those guys are impatient.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2006, 04:10:07 pm »
It's not either/or... Russ Johnson managed both, didn't he?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2006, 04:12:10 pm »
Quote:

ah, the stalker reappears. what is posted here, dumbass, is what i was told on 6/3/06.

i think Astros pitchers do try to make hitters hit the ball to CF...BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE PARK IS HUGE, not because of who is playing CF. do you think that if you were in CF, they'd tried to induce balls hit down the line? what a stupid comment.

you are so fucking interested in slamming the people here that you cannot express a rational thought...if you ever could. i am Spack, you know. i will ban you if you do not start to play nice. immediately.

now, fuck off.





I don't care who you are. Go ahead ban me ... BFD!

By the way the prior discussion about this wasn't with you, I think it was with pravata. Anyway, I think you guys have some pretty good takes on baseball and interesting opinions. When I read something, I ponder it and usually agree with 90% of what you say ... but you don't know it all -- no one does. The problem is you think you do! You really fucking think you know it all.

So, JimR, Spack, Mr. OWA TZ know it all poster, ... go ahead and ban me.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2006, 04:14:13 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

...clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up.




You forgot whiner.  The fact, and it is a fact, notwithstanding the increasing percentage of posters on this board who think their opinions are more important than facts, that Burke is replacing Taveras because of his defense proves the significance that the Astros place on centerfield defense.  If you'd quit soiling your diapers long enough to remember the argument had nothing to do with Taveras specifically but with the fact that he provided a significant improvement in centerfield defense.  Any player who can provide that will be one of the most important players on the Astros.





FACT. Good lord.  

"The decision to bench Taveras was solely performance based and was not done with any malice whatsoever. Taveras, who is by all accounts healthy, has underperformed for much of the season, and considering how the offense has struggled lately, Phil Garner had to find ways to inject some life into the lineup. Taveras never hit below .280 last year, but when his average was heading toward the .250 mark by the end of May, it was time to shuffle things a bit. Plus, Willy was having a few defensive issues. When you're struggling at the plate, you absolutely have to play good defense.

"Chris Burke has a better bat and right now, he is a better option."

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Not that one can trust Alyson Footer.  FACT.  My ears hurt from the screeching bitchiness.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2006, 04:15:30 pm »
nope, i do not know it all, but i know one hell of a lot more than you.

i am not Spack. if i were, you would not be posting today.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2006, 04:15:39 pm »
[quote... You really fucking think you know it all.
....




I think the problem is that we don't think that you know it all.  Wouldn't be having this discussion if we all just agreed with you would we.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2006, 04:17:59 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

...clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up.




You forgot whiner.  The fact, and it is a fact, notwithstanding the increasing percentage of posters on this board who think their opinions are more important than facts, that Burke is replacing Taveras because of his defense proves the significance that the Astros place on centerfield defense.  If you'd quit soiling your diapers long enough to remember the argument had nothing to do with Taveras specifically but with the fact that he provided a significant improvement in centerfield defense.  Any player who can provide that will be one of the most important players on the Astros.





If it's purely defensive than why is Burke out there instead of Bruntlett? Bruntlett appears to get more consistent jumps and obviously has a better arm to keep guys from taking extra bases.

Have the Astros decided that Wilson is no longer capable of playing CF too? When they first signed him I recall Purpura saying Wilson was capable of playing CF if they needed him to.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2006, 04:18:46 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

he takes poor lines and angles to the ball, he turns the wrong way, he misjudges the flight of the ball and he makes many missteps.




Willy Taveras, meet Roger Cedeno.





Taveras is not THAT bad.

And, keep an eye out for Josh Anderson.  He's made big strides this year.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2006, 04:19:15 pm »
Quote:

... even went so far as to say Willy T was the Astros MVP because of his defense in CF.




it isn't unprecedented for someone, in any sport, to be MVP at one moment, and benched 6 months later for lack of production.

Happens in the business world all the time too. No matter what your occupation, be it center field, sales, or computer programming, success comes from focus. If the focus goes away, so does the success.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2006, 04:19:40 pm »
well, Messr. Contrarian makes an appearance because pravata had the temerity to post.

Allyson Footer says it all to you, does she? i'll go with where my info came from and call your ass. his offense was NOT the issue, Messr. Contrarian.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2006, 04:20:43 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

...clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up.




You forgot whiner.  The fact, and it is a fact, notwithstanding the increasing percentage of posters on this board who think their opinions are more important than facts, that Burke is replacing Taveras because of his defense proves the significance that the Astros place on centerfield defense.  If you'd quit soiling your diapers long enough to remember the argument had nothing to do with Taveras specifically but with the fact that he provided a significant improvement in centerfield defense.  Any player who can provide that will be one of the most important players on the Astros.




If it's purely defensive than why is Burke out there instead of Bruntlett? Bruntlett appears to get more consistent jumps and obviously has a better arm to keep guys from taking extra bases.

Have the Astros decided that Wilson is no longer capable of playing CF too? When they first signed him I recall Purpura saying Wilson was capable of playing CF if they needed him to.




Wilson's knees are suspect.  And, the more I watch Bruntlett, the less sure I am that he's a better fielder.  As we have discussed on a number of occasions, arm strength, in center, is not a priority. Not if the fielder hits the cutoff. (edit) Also, Bruntlett has more utility as a utility player.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2006, 04:22:32 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

...clueless, an idiot, a moron and told to shut the fuck up.




You forgot whiner.  The fact, and it is a fact, notwithstanding the increasing percentage of posters on this board who think their opinions are more important than facts, that Burke is replacing Taveras because of his defense proves the significance that the Astros place on centerfield defense.  If you'd quit soiling your diapers long enough to remember the argument had nothing to do with Taveras specifically but with the fact that he provided a significant improvement in centerfield defense.  Any player who can provide that will be one of the most important players on the Astros.




FACT. Good lord.  

"The decision to bench Taveras was solely performance based and was not done with any malice whatsoever. Taveras, who is by all accounts healthy, has underperformed for much of the season, and considering how the offense has struggled lately, Phil Garner had to find ways to inject some life into the lineup. Taveras never hit below .280 last year, but when his average was heading toward the .250 mark by the end of May, it was time to shuffle things a bit. Plus, Willy was having a few defensive issues. When you're struggling at the plate, you absolutely have to play good defense.

"Chris Burke has a better bat and right now, he is a better option."

The Link

Not that one can trust Alyson Footer.  FACT.  My ears hurt from the screeching bitchiness.




Willy was hitting .244 last year as late as May 29.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2006, 04:22:43 pm »
Bruntlett is not an every day CFer. he is an infielder and a valuable utilty player. the same may be true of Burke, but his speed gave him an edge. he also had tried CF in RR for a few games. this idea is not new.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2006, 04:24:35 pm »
Quote:

well, Messr. Contrarian makes an appearance because pravata had the temerity to post.

Allyson Footer says it all to you, does she? i'll go with where my info came from and call your ass. his offense was NOT the issue, Messr. Contrarian.





I'm not responding to his posts in any case, and he's aware of that.  His baseball knowledge/information amounts to zero and I have designated him as "Ignore".

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Re: Willy
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2006, 04:25:33 pm »
Quote:

Mark and i have this conversation about every other night in RR--what is going to happen to guys like Huffman (who is killing the ball), Conrad, Scott and Jimerson? or Giminez and Quintero? are they going to waste their best days in AAA? are they going to be part of a trade package? this is not a bad problem to have, but you know those guys are impatient.



If you have read his recent quotes you KNOW Scott is.  While I doubt the Astros feel the same way, I would not be against trade both Lane and Wilson to get a better bat, and then bringing up a couple of those guys from RR to fill the open roster spot.  But given recent comments from Tim, I am not sure they would do this since it would likely add some salary to the payroll.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2006, 04:26:14 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

... even went so far as to say Willy T was the Astros MVP because of his defense in CF.




it isn't unprecedented for someone, in any sport, to be MVP at one moment, and benched 6 months later for lack of production.

Happens in the business world all the time too. No matter what your occupation, be it center field, sales, or computer programming, success comes from focus. If the focus goes away, so does the success.





Or to regress, skills wise, because (wait for it..) they failed to put in the work!  Hmmm... would an attitude issue factor into a problem there?  See, it's not about "knowing it all" because that's impossible.  The key, in baseball as in life, is to keep working at improving and strengthening skills.  Sounds like Willy T, much to my disappointment, has decided to take the "Ego Express" to failure.  I hope he hits the breaks soon because there are not many teams willing to take a gamble on high ego, low production players.  

And yes, it's about production.  He didn't get it done in the field or at the plate.  Did you notice Everett hasn't gotten it done at the plate either?  Did he get benched?

I've read some of the updates about Anderson's improved patience which would go a long way toward improving his chances as a top of the order guy.  Anyone else who's seen him in person have an opinion to offer?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2006, 04:26:19 pm »
Quote:

well, Messr. Contrarian makes an appearance because pravata had the temerity to post.

Allyson Footer says it all to you, does she? i'll go with where my info came from and call your ass. his offense was NOT the issue, Messr. Contrarian.





Pravata makes my ears hurt, and Alyson Footer's a pretty reasonable source. That said, I never doubt what your sources say, but it's all in the question.  Ask your source if Taveras was hitting .305 with an obp of .380 or so if he would still be playing.  That's the question, right?  If he comes back and says no, his defense is so unfixable that we would sit him right down, well, I guess that's the answer.  I just don't think, given Garner's penchant for letting guys work through stuff, that that's a likely answer.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2006, 04:27:17 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

well, Messr. Contrarian makes an appearance because pravata had the temerity to post.

Allyson Footer says it all to you, does she? i'll go with where my info came from and call your ass. his offense was NOT the issue, Messr. Contrarian.





I'm not responding to his posts in any case, and he's aware of that.  His baseball knowledge/information amounts to zero and I have designated him as "Ignore".





Pravata's very thin-skinned.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2006, 04:28:32 pm »
the Astros may not like Scott all that much. i was told he was on the block with no takers this winter. i think he failed miserably last year when given the LF job twice, then, he came back to RR after ST with a pout. he has turned it on lately, but the bloom is off his rose for me.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2006, 04:31:41 pm »
hell, Neil, you are stalking him every bit as much as some have stalked me. if it were me you were treating this way, i'd go after you too.

you have crossed the line with him many times, imo. i do not expect you to care what i think, but it should stop.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2006, 04:33:54 pm »
Quote:

Mark and i have this conversation about every other night in RR--what is going to happen to guys like Huffman (who is killing the ball), Conrad, Scott and Jimerson? or Giminez and Quintero? are they going to waste their best days in AAA? are they going to be part of a trade package? this is not a bad problem to have, but you know those guys are impatient.




I think Huffman may never get a shot.  He was available in the winter and no team wanted to look at him for the 25th spot.  

I think Conrad should have been given time at different positions last year.  A power hitting utility guy capable of playing 2b, 3b, lf, and rf is a nice commodity.  It wouldn't be bad if Conrad had gotten some instruction at those other spots.  How would the Astros bench look right now if a versatile Conrad were there instead of Taveras?

Scott and Jimerson look more like trade bait to me unless Jimerson gets a shot at a backup role or maybe rf.  

Ausmus in 07 and Munson seems capable as a backup.  I think Q will be gone before the start of next season.  Gimenez's opportunities are still there as he's not very old.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2006, 04:34:30 pm »
well, great. just do not read what i tell you. i do not give a rat's ass what you think is a likely answer. you do not understand the difference between offense and defense anyway. every discussion comes back to what he is hitting, and i cannot understand it for you. maybe Junior will have a coach someday who will get you to listen. i cannot.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2006, 04:35:37 pm »
Quote:

Did you notice Everett hasn't gotten it done at the plate either?  Did he get benched?




Injury issue.  Did you notice who the one player making good contact in the KC series was?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2006, 04:36:38 pm »
Quote:

Willy was hitting .244 last year as late as May 29.



And last year Burke was having to play LF because the other OF options sucked then too, AND Lance was comming back from knee surgery at the time and the club was hesitant to use him anywhere but 1B as a result.  So Taveras in CF and a platoon in LF was better than any other options they had then.  This year they know Burke can play OF adequately (based on last year) and they now have Wilson and Berkman to help out in the OF, so the situation is totally different than last year.

But if your point was Wily might get better as the season goes on?  Well I go back to several of my previous posts one of which said
 
Quote:

In a month Willy might be back in the line-up along with both Lane and Wilson and Lamb and Burke will go back to the bench. You just never know.  
 




or
 
Quote:

But all that can change if the player will.



The second one was in reference to Wily can get out of the doghouse if he is willing to admit he needs to improve and the coaches can help.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2006, 04:37:51 pm »
that is exactly why Conrad is now at 3B.

Huffman had an off year last year. he is crushing the ball now.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2006, 04:45:30 pm »
Quote:

that is exactly why Conrad is now at 3B.

Huffman had an off year last year. he is crushing the ball now.




While that may be true he has had good numbers in the past too, but it hasn't been enough then either.  I think Jacksonian is correct in that very few of the position players at AAA are likely to be big players in the Astros Organization in the future, but would be used as trade bait.  The exception being a couple of the pitchers.

While I like all of the Astros minor leaguers (as evidenced by my many posts on MO), I think you might be a little bias to those you get to watch alot in RR.  It is AAA and they should be good to get there, but the real talent position player wise is at AA (and lower) at this time.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2006, 04:47:52 pm »
Quote:

that is exactly why Conrad is now at 3B.




This is a year late, IMO.  Would have been nice if Conrad already had a year's experience.  I could never get info but wondered last year why they didn't do it.  They knew they weren't going to promote him as a second baseman even then.  Hopefully, though, the experiment will turn out well and provide dividends soon.


Quote:

Huffman had an off year last year. he is crushing the ball now.




True.  But, he hit the ball well in previous years.  We'll see what happens with him this winter.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2006, 04:48:10 pm »
RR was AA for several years. i know the difference, i assure you, and i disagree with your comment about where the talent is.

email/PM me if you want. i do not want to take up others' valuable time.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2006, 04:54:56 pm »
he is the exact same player as Bruntlett. that is the problem for Royce, imo. i just want him to get to the bigs with someone. he plays the game the way it should be played.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #90 on: June 20, 2006, 04:55:54 pm »
Quote:

RR was AA for several years. i know the difference, i assure you, and i disagree with your comment about where the talent is.

email/PM me if you want. i do not want to take up others' valuable time.





Were our time valuable, we wouldn't be here.  I for one am interested in hearing your thoughts, which is why we provide this forum.  Please share them if you wish.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2006, 05:02:37 pm »
Quote:

I for one am interested in hearing your thoughts, which is why we provide this forum.  




And here I always thought it was fulfilling some community service requirement...
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Re: Willy
« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2006, 05:08:15 pm »
i do not really do not know enough about the guys in CC to compare them to RR, but i do not think that is fair anyway. i really hated to lose AA b/c all of those guys think they are headed to MLB, and they bust their asses. i thought AAA would not be as enjoyable to watch. i was wrong.

the AAA guys are more polished. they make better plays. they are more consistent. the quality of play is better. sure, maybe there are jaded veterans here and there, but several of the Express guys are ready for the bigs, imo. i hope each one gets a shot, and i am looking forward to seeing the AA guys progress as they arrive in RR.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2006, 05:10:33 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I for one am interested in hearing your thoughts, which is why we provide this forum.  




And here I always thought it was fulfilling some community service requirement...





I'm not sure anyone would describe what we do here as a "service", to the community or otherwise.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #94 on: June 20, 2006, 05:13:09 pm »
Quote:


I'm not sure anyone would describe what we do here as a "service", to the community or otherwise.





I dunno...

There are several folks who get "serviced" every time they rear their pointy little noggins...

See:

Stop, Short
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Re: Willy
« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2006, 05:55:32 pm »
Quote:

so, you think it is pretty easy to hit from your other side in MLB when you have NEVER done it before in a game at any level? how long will it take you do become proficient at that?




This has been the thought that has popped into my head every time this suggestion comes up. Willy is often overmatched from one side. How the hell is he going to get wood on the ball from the other?

How many players have successfully learned to switch hit at this point in their careers?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2006, 06:05:25 pm »
helping him to hit better would be relatively simple and would be similar to the changes Burke has made. of course, he would have to listen and try something different than what he is doing. the year i worked with the Express, Ensberg said to me about his teammates and pro hitters in general: "you cannot tell most of these guys anything. they think they know it all." perhaps that is Willy. i hope not because he has a lot to offer.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #97 on: June 20, 2006, 06:07:33 pm »
I'm a natural righty, and I just switched to hitting exclusively lefty this year.



Oh, did you mean hitting MLB pitching and not slow pitch softball?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #98 on: June 20, 2006, 06:11:07 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Did you notice Everett hasn't gotten it done at the plate either?  Did he get benched?




Injury issue.  Did you notice who the one player making good contact in the KC series was?





That's kind of the point.  Everett's putting in the work, based on his comments about working with Gaetti etc...  Defensively, and here I'm speculating, I don't think Everett is of the opinion that "he's got it made" and puts in the work there as well.  My intent was not to knock Everett but to point out that struggling offensively doesn't lead to getting benched.  Taveras' offense was poor and his defense not much better.  Combine failure to execute on offense and lazy defense with a piss poor attitude, as Jim has relayed, and it's no wonder he got benched.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #99 on: June 20, 2006, 06:12:39 pm »
Quote:

i am Spack




(jumping up in front of my computer and yelling)

"No, I'm Spack!"

Kirk Douglas (pre-stroke). Now that's how I always pictured Spack.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #100 on: June 20, 2006, 06:15:36 pm »
Quote:

that is exactly why Conrad is now at 3B.

Huffman had an off year last year. he is crushing the ball now.





Royce Huffman has been my favorite minor league player on the Astros for quite some time now.  He plays the game right and he's not entirely devoid of talent.  He does not have the proverbial five tool makeup, but he has the heart bigger than a David Eckstein and he will battle you till you beat him one way or another.  He never gives up.

I always thought of Huffman as a Billy Spiers reincarnated.  Unfortunately for him (Huffman), Spiers did not reinvent himself into the ubber-utility guy until late in his career when he lost the starters job he had (as a shortstop).  Bruntlett got to the bigs faster because he started at shortstop and Huffman has been a first and third baseman for a very long time.

Houston had a very good Jose Vizcaino for all those years that Huffman could've gotten a shot.  This year, somehow I hope Huffman gets a chance in September to get to the bigs, just to show what he could possibly contribute.  The kid is a gamer and would become a fan favorite soon enough if he was given enough time to show he can help just like Bruntlett has.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #101 on: June 20, 2006, 06:15:37 pm »
Spack is tough alright, but he is a pale imitation of the TZ Overlord. shortstop would have been run with his hair on fire.

my favorite player for years, too, Noe. i love the way he plays.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #102 on: June 20, 2006, 06:25:16 pm »
 
Quote:

Spack is tough alright, but he is a pale imitation of the TZ Overlord.




But I think Spack makes up the difference with his offensive contributions.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #103 on: June 20, 2006, 06:26:45 pm »
Quote:

right about what???????????????????????????????? the RR days are common knowledge, but that experiment never got to a game and was dropped two years ago. it is not the answer now.




Thanks for answering my question Jim.  Switch hitting's obviously no longer and option.  Now with that said, what's the most likley destination for Willy?  AAA, trade to another team, continued bench time at the MLB level or the stars align and he starts for the Stros in CF again?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #104 on: June 20, 2006, 06:28:19 pm »
i did not say it no longer is an option b/c i do not know the long range plan for him. i just said it is not the answer to his current malaise.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #105 on: June 20, 2006, 06:28:48 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

he lost his job b/c of defense, not offense, and that is a fact. believe it or not. your choice.




I believe it. Taveras' defense is puzzling, he has improved his jumps / routes and his speed puts him in position to make a play on a lot balls, but he seems to lose his focus on the ball somewhere in flight, or at least he does not always watch the ball into his glove. On balls hit on the ground he often watches the runner and bobbles the ball, sometimes resulting in the runner scoring. I think it's a concentration issue, which is probably why the Astros are not pleased. I can almost hear Garner tell Willy when he runs into the dugout after one of his one handed, below the head catches of a routine fly ball. "Nice catch Taveras, don't ever fucking do it again."





Not wanting to hijack the thread, but this little scenario reminded me of the day that Bobby Cox pulled Andruw Jones off the field before an inning was over because he hotdogged a catch... yes, an actual out he somewhat secured.  Cox read Andruw the riot act later in the clubhouse that he would do that again and again as long as Jones decided he could hotdog on a catch.

One of my warp sense of joy watching Andruw Jones play all these years (and magnificently at that) was waiting for the one day a catch of his would make Bobby Cox's head explode.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2006, 06:37:05 pm »
Quote:

i did not say it no longer is an option b/c i do not know the long range plan for him. i just said it is not the answer to his current malaise.




I guess this is where I get into trouble (my communication skills suck on the TZ).  I heard you the first time when you stated defense as the reason he wasn't playing. As I do in most cases, I treated your opinion as the gospil.  The only reason I brought up the switch hitting, was because I figured at some point Pup might decide that it would be better to have Willy playing everyday in AAA, rather than sitting on the bench...and that the old idea of switch hitting might be one more reason to make that decision (attitude and defense among the others).

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Re: Willy
« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2006, 06:43:57 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

he lost his job b/c of defense, not offense, and that is a fact. believe it or not. your choice.




I believe it. Taveras' defense is puzzling, he has improved his jumps / routes and his speed puts him in position to make a play on a lot balls, but he seems to lose his focus on the ball somewhere in flight, or at least he does not always watch the ball into his glove. On balls hit on the ground he often watches the runner and bobbles the ball, sometimes resulting in the runner scoring. I think it's a concentration issue, which is probably why the Astros are not pleased. I can almost hear Garner tell Willy when he runs into the dugout after one of his one handed, below the head catches of a routine fly ball. "Nice catch Taveras, don't ever fucking do it again."




Not wanting to hijack the thread, but this little scenario reminded me of the day that Bobby Cox pulled Andruw Jones off the field before an inning was over because he hotdogged a catch... yes, an actual out he somewhat secured.  Cox read Andruw the riot act later in the clubhouse that he would do that again and again as long as Jones decided he could hotdog on a catch.

One of my warp sense of joy watching Andruw Jones play all these years (and magnificently at that) was waiting for the one day a catch of his would make Bobby Cox's head explode.




IIRC, that happened not too long after AJones had let a ball go under his glove (rolling all the way to the wall).  Jones half-ass'd it after the ball and the batter scored.  He should've been benched after that stunt...apparently the play you recalled was the straw that broke the camel's back.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2006, 06:52:51 pm »
and that might be right. if he comes back to AAA, i hope they think about whether switch-hitting is a good idea for him.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #109 on: June 20, 2006, 07:17:35 pm »
Quote:

well, great. just do not read what i tell you. i do not give a rat's ass what you think is a likely answer. you do not understand the difference between offense and defense anyway.




Wily's not batting .305, so what I think's mere speculation.  Still what I think, though.  If Wily starts hitting, and Burke stops hitting, and Wily's still sitting, then I'm wrong.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #110 on: June 20, 2006, 07:26:45 pm »
whatever you say. offense is all that really matters, especially in CF.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2006, 01:17:07 am »
Let me get this straight ....

CF in MMPUS is extremely difficult to play because of it's odd angles and huge spaces;

Willy T was virtually the MVP on this team last season because of his defensive prowess in CF;

Willy T has played CF virtually his entire career and has the tools(speed, arm)to be a very good CF;

Willy T is weak, weak, weak at best offensively;

Chris Burke is poor defensively in the infileld (no arm, bad footwork, poor instincts) and has never played CF regularly anywhere;

Chris Burke is a pretty good hitter;

The Astros have struggled to produce runs from the OF spots all season;

Chris Burke ends up starting several games in CF instead of Willy T;

Jim R. goes to a ballgame with an unamed "inside source" who tells him that Burke is in CF over Willy T soley because of defense;

It is now a FACT that the defensively challenged, but offensively capable Burke is starting in CF (this very difficult and extremely important position) over the offensively challenged, but defensively capable Willy T, soley because of defense!

And Jim R. thinks others have voices in their heads ...

Maybe he is right ..., maybe Burke is playing a difficult position he's very unfamiliar with because he's the best defensive option the Astros have. But, it doesn't make any sense.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #112 on: June 21, 2006, 01:43:48 am »
Quote:

Let me get this straight ....

CF in MMPUS is extremely difficult to play because of it's odd angles and huge spaces;

Willy T was virtually the MVP on this team last season because of his defensive prowess in CF;

Willy T has played CF virtually his entire career and has the tools(speed, arm)to be a very good CF;

Willy T is weak, weak, weak at best offensively;

Chris Burke is poor defensively in the infileld (no arm, bad footwork, poor instincts) and has never played CF regularly anywhere;

Chris Burke is a pretty good hitter;

The Astros have struggled to produce runs from the OF spots all season;

Chris Burke ends up starting several games in CF instead of Willy T;

Jim R. goes to a ballgame with an unamed "inside source" who tells him that Burke is in CF over Willy T soley because of defense;

It is now a FACT that the defensively challenged, but offensively capable Burke is starting in CF (this very difficult and extremely important position) over the offensively challenged, but defensively capable Willy T, soley because of defense!

And Jim R. thinks others have voices in their heads ...

Maybe he is right ..., maybe Burke is playing a difficult position he's very unfamiliar with because he's the best defensive option the Astros have. But, it doesn't make any sense.





Why is it so hard for you to believe he knows someone that is an inside source?

Other than the fact that most of the time you're a trolling jackass, or course.
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shortstop

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Re: Willy
« Reply #113 on: June 21, 2006, 01:56:33 am »
I believe he knows someone who is an "inside source" ... have no real reason to doubt that.

I just don't think this "inside source's" opinion that Burke is in there soley because of his defense makes sense.

Who is this "inside source"? How does he know? Is it the same guy that told him Clemens used steroids?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #114 on: June 21, 2006, 02:16:26 am »
Quote:

I believe he knows someone who is an "inside source" ... have no real reason to doubt that.

I just don't think this "inside source's" opinion that Burke is in there soley because of his defense makes sense.

Who is this "inside source"? How does he know? Is it the same guy that told him Clemens used steroids?





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Re: Willy
« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2006, 02:23:08 am »
Quote:

I'm a natural righty, and I just switched to hitting exclusively lefty this year.



Oh, did you mean hitting MLB pitching and not slow pitch softball?




the weakest fielder's always in RF in your league too, eh?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #116 on: June 21, 2006, 03:35:50 am »
Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




That's absurd.

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.

At worst, he's been playing average center field. I highly doubt Burke is doing, or will do any better. On the other hand, Burke is providing alot more offensive production than Willy. Be logical.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #117 on: June 21, 2006, 03:49:19 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




That's absurd.

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.

At worst, he's been playing average center field. I highly doubt Burke is doing, or will do any better. On the other hand, Burke is providing alot more offensive production than Willy. Be logical.





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I was standing there listening too when he said it. Willy's bad angles and lack of improvement in the field, as well as his "I have it made" attitude are "killing" the Astros.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #118 on: June 21, 2006, 03:55:17 am »
juicy

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Re: Willy
« Reply #119 on: June 21, 2006, 04:01:08 am »
Quote:

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.




uh oh, zone rating and range factor in one post at the tail end of a six page long thread?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #120 on: June 21, 2006, 04:32:34 am »
Can I ask a question? I'm not trying to stir things up any further; I'm just hoping to clarify a point. We know what Jim's source told him, more or less (if not exactly) word for word with respect to WT. My impression gained through this thread is that Jim's source is relaying what Tal Smith told him, which is surely excellent inside information.

Jim, is this Tal's opinion? Is this something Tal is relaying that has come from Garner? Is it a point of view that is shared equally by Tal and Garner? Do you know specifically or do you have an impression one way or another?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #121 on: June 21, 2006, 06:29:15 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




That's absurd.

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.

At worst, he's been playing average center field. I highly doubt Burke is doing, or will do any better. On the other hand, Burke is providing alot more offensive production than Willy. Be logical.




Range factor and zone rating are pretty useless numbers, so asking anybody to look at those numbers and be logical isn't very wise.  There's no reason for me not to think that Wily T hasn't had substantial defensive miscues this year.  They may not have resulted in errors, they may not have resulted in a lower zone factor or range rating or whatever.  I don't think anyone would disagree that last year Wily played stellar center field defense, but that doesn't mean that this year he's not a changed player, and that it's a pattern and not just a few isolated plays.  Given that, and given Garner, I'd expect Wily to still be on the field working through things if (1) there hadn't been a determination that his mental attitude wasn't bad or (2) he wasn't sucking at the plate, or (3) both.  Jim says it's purely attitude, and has a source with the team who says it's a combination of bad defense and attitude.  That answer is entirely possible, maybe even probable, though FACT is absurdly strong.  

There are also, as I recall, published quotes from Garner to the effect that there are no issues with Wily other than his play on the field, which quotes seem to go out of their way to say that the rumors of attitude problems are
not true.  Lots of explanations for that, and Garner's public statements don't mean that the answer isn't bad defense plus bad attitude.  I've certainly read rumors here about Wily's attitude for weeks, though (again as I recall) I think I've read them as often as not in connection with his failure to change his batting approach as his defense.  So I'm not clear that the attitude issue, even if true, is purely defensive.

All of that said, there are problems with Jim's position, one of which is that while Jim's source certainly said exactly what Jim's repeated, and while what he's said isn't improbable, it's still just that: a statement from a friend at a ballgame that, while it supports Jim's position, doesn't exactly disprove anyone else's position.  I hope Jim didn't sit there and grill the guy to find out the limits of his statements.  For instance, I recently talked with someone in the clubhouse who might know what he was talking about.  The guy said that Player X didn't have the physical strength to get the bat through the strike zone quick enough to ever be a good hitter.  I didn't ask, though, whether player X was also injured, or if player X worked at his batting, or if player X's batting would improve if he tried batting from the left side of the plate or taking HGH or visiting Tibet.  Even if what my acquaintance said was right, it only goes so far.   Jim was smart enough to get through law school, and he knows this.

Jim says I don't understand defense, and i think what he means by that is that I don't sufficiently believe this:

"Offense cannot make up for defensive miscues."

to make statements about the team.  Well, I don't know whether I understand defense or not, but if that's what he's saying, then this is also true:

"Defense cannot make up for offensive miscues."

Which leaves me right back where I started, and makes me think that whatever Taveras's problems defensively, that offensive miscues may also be part of the problem.  Arguing that it's not part of the problem is just as impossible to prove, short of grilling Garner or maybe Jim's source, as arguing that it is.  Of course centerfield is an important defensive position, but Burke's upside defensively is probably not as great as Taveras's:  he's got a lousy arm and he doesn't know the position.  Taveras has a great arm and he played the position well last year.  Burke's obvious difference is that his upside offensively appears to be much greater than Wily's.  Unless, of course, the team is out looking to trade Burke for better defense in center field, which I would be surprised at.

So Jim's got a statement from a source, and no one doubts it.  Except for Shortstop no one's going to think he's necessarily wrong, I think.  Pravata says it's FACT, and from here on out that goes a long way with me.  It's also possible that the Alyson Footer statement is part of the picture without the story being all about offense.

As for the defensive importance of centerfield, defense can't make up for offensive miscues.  They're different things, and Wily is suffering from serious offensive miscues.

Lousy bunt by Burke tonight.  One thing watching Burke on a regular basis has done is expose the myths about Burke.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #122 on: June 21, 2006, 10:40:38 am »
i do not know what Tal thinks, and i do not know Tal. you can PM me if you want.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #123 on: June 21, 2006, 01:18:24 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




That's absurd.

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.

At worst, he's been playing average center field. I highly doubt Burke is doing, or will do any better. On the other hand, Burke is providing alot more offensive production than Willy. Be logical.





Taveras is also 22nd alphabetically, but that has just about as much meaning.

Willy can play better defense in CF.  That does not mean Willy was playing better defense.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #124 on: June 21, 2006, 01:31:42 pm »
Quote:

Willy can play better defense in CF.  That does not mean Willy was playing better defense.




I think people are missing the most critical aspect of what has been relayed as source information: Willy *can* do better and the Astros would like to help him do so... but his attitude is keeping him from making adjustments and/or taking instruction.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #125 on: June 21, 2006, 01:47:32 pm »
Quote:

I think people are missing the most critical aspect of what has been relayed as source information: Willy *can* do better and the Astros would like to help him do so... but his attitude is keeping him from making adjustments and/or taking instruction.




This begins to smell like the Schilling situation: the potential is there, but something significant has to happen to make the player realize that work is still required.  I'd rather that a trade isn't the "something significant", but maybe it is.

Maybe Roger can have a "chat" with him tomorrow.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #126 on: June 21, 2006, 01:55:08 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I think people are missing the most critical aspect of what has been relayed as source information: Willy *can* do better and the Astros would like to help him do so... but his attitude is keeping him from making adjustments and/or taking instruction.




This begins to smell like the Schilling situation: the potential is there, but something significant has to happen to make the player realize that work is still required.  I'd rather that a trade isn't the "something significant", but maybe it is.

Maybe Roger can have a "chat" with him tomorrow.





A trip to AAA maybe the impetus for change, but more likely Rogah's foot in his ass will do the trick.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #127 on: June 21, 2006, 02:40:27 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think people are missing the most critical aspect of what has been relayed as source information: Willy *can* do better and the Astros would like to help him do so... but his attitude is keeping him from making adjustments and/or taking instruction.




This begins to smell like the Schilling situation: the potential is there, but something significant has to happen to make the player realize that work is still required.  I'd rather that a trade isn't the "something significant", but maybe it is.

Maybe Roger can have a "chat" with him tomorrow.




A trip to AAA maybe the impetus for change, but more likely Rogah's foot in his ass will do the trick.




It is interesting to watch how an organization will handle a young talent.  Confidence is a big key to a young players success or potential for success.  Talent gets them to the majors, confidence is what keeps them here.  Baseball, by and large, is a humbiling game.  At the highest level of baseball, the MLB, it is truely applicable.  In the minors, telent can get you very far.  In the majors, talent alone won't cut it.  You have to have confidence.  Far too often you hear of AAAA players.  You need not look far to see that the difference is confidence to play at the highest level and not talent.

That is why early in the career of a player, an organization will be on the lookout for areas a player can improve to breed confidence.  The problem often comes from the players own perception of confidence. "I've done it this way for years, and it works for me!" is codespeak for a talented player for "I'm talented enough, I just need to catch a break".  But, sadly, the player isn't doing himself any good by misplacing said confidence on talent alone.   This is the bigs, coming up here is hard... staying up here is tougher.  To stay up here, you have to work... and work... and work.  And as you work, the humility that comes from it will help you maintain a great attitude about the game at the highest level.  Not too low when you fail, not too high when you succeed.  There have been many opportunities afforded a talented player of course, and has been rightly said, that talent will not maintain a successful career without the work to improve daily.  To adjust, to accept one was better than you that day but you did your best because you worked at your craft to make sure there is nothing you did that could've been done better.

Phil Nevin, Curt Schilling, Tim Redding, doesn't matter who, the list goes on and on of guys who were relying on talent but not good work ethic to improve and then succeed in their careers.  There is nothing wrong with Taveras that a little bit of adjustment on the attitude won't fix.  He is talented.  Where he goes from here is all up to him.  Scrap Iron is doing his best to keep from destroying the kid's 'tude.  So is Purpura.  Others perhaps wouldn't be as lenient towards him.  It was mentioned here a while back that Brandon Duckworth was a very talented young pitcher in the Phillies system and rather than help the young man continue to develop, manager Larry Bowa destroyed his confidence.  What Bowa did was instill doubt in Duckworth's brain about his talent!  No one in the Houston Astros is trying to tell Willy he isn't talented... far from it.

They're trying to tell him to work to instill the proper major league confidence that comes from said work to help the team win games.  His response to that should never be a big league attitude.  His response should be one of taking the challenge and getting where he needs to be.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #128 on: June 21, 2006, 02:57:57 pm »
Quote:

Ask your source if Taveras was hitting .305 with an obp of .380 or so if he would still be playing.  That's the question, right?  If he comes back and says no, his defense is so unfixable that we would sit him right down, well, I guess that's the answer.  I just don't think, given Garner's penchant for letting guys work through stuff, that that's a likely answer.




But Willy isn't hitting at that rate. That's not a realistic premise. What matters is not what he does in some alternate reality, but what he is actually doing--which could stand improvement.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #129 on: June 21, 2006, 03:31:48 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Ask your source if Taveras was hitting .305 with an obp of .380 or so if he would still be playing.  That's the question, right?  If he comes back and says no, his defense is so unfixable that we would sit him right down, well, I guess that's the answer.  I just don't think, given Garner's penchant for letting guys work through stuff, that that's a likely answer.




But Willy isn't hitting at that rate. That's not a realistic premise. What matters is not what he does in some alternate reality, but what he is actually doing--which could stand improvement.





Well, what he's actually doing is sitting, and I doubt that's something he cares about improving.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #130 on: June 21, 2006, 06:34:03 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




That's absurd.

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.

At worst, he's been playing average center field. I highly doubt Burke is doing, or will do any better. On the other hand, Burke is providing alot more offensive production than Willy. Be logical.




Dear Moron,

He... Is... Repeating... Word... For... Word... What... A...Person... In... The... Know... Told... Him.

I was standing there listening too when he said it. Willy's bad angles and lack of improvement in the field, as well as his "I have it made" attitude are "killing" the Astros.




I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #131 on: June 21, 2006, 06:49:14 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




That's absurd.

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.

At worst, he's been playing average center field. I highly doubt Burke is doing, or will do any better. On the other hand, Burke is providing alot more offensive production than Willy. Be logical.




Dear Moron,

He... Is... Repeating... Word... For... Word... What... A...Person... In... The... Know... Told... Him.

I was standing there listening too when he said it. Willy's bad angles and lack of improvement in the field, as well as his "I have it made" attitude are "killing" the Astros.




I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?




But Burke's what's available.  If the problem with Taveras was defense and attitude, Burke may well have been there in the beginning because of defense and attitude problems. He may stay there as long as his bat is hot even though he may not be as good a defender.  There's really nothing inconsistent in that.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #132 on: June 21, 2006, 06:52:55 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




That's absurd.

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.

At worst, he's been playing average center field. I highly doubt Burke is doing, or will do any better. On the other hand, Burke is providing alot more offensive production than Willy. Be logical.




Dear Moron,

He... Is... Repeating... Word... For... Word... What... A...Person... In... The... Know... Told... Him.

I was standing there listening too when he said it. Willy's bad angles and lack of improvement in the field, as well as his "I have it made" attitude are "killing" the Astros.




I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?




But Burke's what's available.  If the problem with Taveras was defense and attitude, Burke may well have been there in the beginning because of defense and attitude problems. He may stay there as long as his bat is hot even though he may not be as good a defender.  There's really nothing inconsistent in that.




You must be a Jim worshipper.  Obviously....
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Re: Willy
« Reply #133 on: June 21, 2006, 07:12:36 pm »
it ain't the Gospel of Jim, troll. i am repeating what someone closer to the field than you told me.

now, fuck off.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #134 on: June 21, 2006, 07:37:20 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




That's absurd.

He ranks 11th out of 24 ML CFs in range factor, and 16th in zone rating.

At worst, he's been playing average center field. I highly doubt Burke is doing, or will do any better. On the other hand, Burke is providing alot more offensive production than Willy. Be logical.




Dear Moron,

He... Is... Repeating... Word... For... Word... What... A...Person... In... The... Know... Told... Him.

I was standing there listening too when he said it. Willy's bad angles and lack of improvement in the field, as well as his "I have it made" attitude are "killing" the Astros.




I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?




But Burke's what's available.  If the problem with Taveras was defense and attitude, Burke may well have been there in the beginning because of defense and attitude problems. He may stay there as long as his bat is hot even though he may not be as good a defender.  There's really nothing inconsistent in that.




You must be a Jim worshipper.  Obviously....




Who else works as hard to make Jim look good?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #135 on: June 21, 2006, 09:52:34 pm »
Quote:



I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #136 on: June 21, 2006, 10:47:34 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.





!) I don't necessarily believe him.

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #137 on: June 21, 2006, 10:48:26 pm »
Quote:

it ain't the Gospel of Jim, troll. i am repeating what someone closer to the field than you told me.

now, fuck off.





Is anybody that doesn't buy into your bullshit automatically a troll?

Act your age.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #138 on: June 21, 2006, 11:15:24 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.




!) I don't necessarily believe him.

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.




Well, once again, since you apparently can't read, I WAS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO JIM when he was told this. If you don't want to believe it, fine. Nobody is making you. But I'll take the word of a MLB team employee that is privy to behind the scenes meetings with Astros brass over you, who just doesn't believe it because... well, whatever your fucktard opinion over why you think Jim'd like about it is.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #139 on: June 21, 2006, 11:24:20 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.




!) I don't necessarily believe him.

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.




Why on earth would he make it up? Not only that, but why would he defend it so adamantly? ... if it weren't true?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #140 on: June 21, 2006, 11:40:26 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.




!) I don't necessarily believe him.

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.




Well, once again, since you apparently can't read, I WAS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO JIM when he was told this. If you don't want to believe it, fine. Nobody is making you. But I'll take the word of a MLB team employee that is privy to behind the scenes meetings with Astros brass over you, who just doesn't believe it because... well, whatever your fucktard opinion over why you think Jim'd like about it is.




Well look at that.

Guess who Garner put in as a 9th inning  defensive replacement in centerfield, sliding Burke to leftfield?

Yep. It's mister "destroying the Astros with his piss poor defense" Willy T.

I don't believe in what he's saying because it doesn't make logical sense, not because I have some imaginary vendetta against Jim.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #141 on: June 21, 2006, 11:43:40 pm »
Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #142 on: June 21, 2006, 11:47:52 pm »
Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #143 on: June 22, 2006, 12:01:28 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.





Actually, Ausmus was the ONLY defensive replacement in the 9th.

See, a pinch runner that stays in the game isn't considered a defensive replacement.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #144 on: June 22, 2006, 12:07:46 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.




Actually, Ausmus was the ONLY defensive replacement in the 9th.

See, a pinch runner that stays in the game isn't considered a defensive replacement.




Great. Bust me on something minor like that. If he was such a liability, why would Garner leave him in?

Let's be honest here.

Isn't this Jim's way of covering his ass after saying for years that Burke would never be able to hit ML hitting?

"Oh, Burke took Willy's spot because of defense. Nothing to do with the fact that Willy was struggling at the plate since team's have taken away his bunt singles by playing the 3B in. Nothing to do with the fact that Burke is absolutely  mashing the ball."

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Re: Willy
« Reply #145 on: June 22, 2006, 12:10:26 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.




Actually, Ausmus was the ONLY defensive replacement in the 9th.

See, a pinch runner that stays in the game isn't considered a defensive replacement.




Great. Bust me on something minor like that. If he was such a liability, why would Garner leave him in?

Let's be honest here.

Isn't this Jim's way of covering his ass after saying for years that Burke would never be able to hit ML hitting?

"Oh, Burke took Willy's spot because of defense. Nothing to do with the fact that Willy was struggling at the plate since team's have taken away his bunt singles by playing the 3B in. Nothing to do with the fact that Burke is absolutely  mashing the ball."




Okay, one more time, I'll try and pound it through your absolutely empty skull.

This has NOTHING to do with Jim. He repeated what his insider told him.

I realize you can't get past your massive hardon for trolling Jim's posts, but enough already.

Find something else to be a fucking moron about, please?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #146 on: June 22, 2006, 12:19:47 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.




Actually, Ausmus was the ONLY defensive replacement in the 9th.

See, a pinch runner that stays in the game isn't considered a defensive replacement.




Great. Bust me on something minor like that. If he was such a liability, why would Garner leave him in?

Let's be honest here.

Isn't this Jim's way of covering his ass after saying for years that Burke would never be able to hit ML hitting?

"Oh, Burke took Willy's spot because of defense. Nothing to do with the fact that Willy was struggling at the plate since team's have taken away his bunt singles by playing the 3B in. Nothing to do with the fact that Burke is absolutely  mashing the ball."




Okay, one more time, I'll try and pound it through your absolutely empty skull.

This has NOTHING to do with Jim. He repeated what his insider told him.

I realize you can't get past your massive hardon for trolling Jim's posts, but enough already.

Find something else to be a fucking moron about, please?




I still don't see how I'm trolling.

Doesn't trolling mean going around baiting people and being an ass for no reason?

I'm disputing the claim. It's not like I follow him around heckling him for no reason.  

You still haven't answered me. If his defense was so detrimental to the team, why would Garner leave him in the 9th, shifting Burke to a less demanding defensive position?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #147 on: June 22, 2006, 12:26:44 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.





Burke went to left for Preston who hurt his ankle when he stepped on the bat scoring the go ahead run.

Or did I imagine that?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #148 on: June 22, 2006, 12:28:47 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.




Burke went to left for Preston who hurt his ankle when he stepped on the bat scoring the go ahead run.

Or did I imagine that?




Quit bringing facts in to the JimR slanderfest! Geez.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #149 on: June 22, 2006, 12:29:55 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.




Burke went to left for Preston who hurt his ankle when he stepped on the bat scoring the go ahead run.

Or did I imagine that?




I saw him step over the bat. I'm not sure if he hurt himself, but I don't think he did.

Even if he was hurt, why not have Willy in LF, leaving Burke in the more challenging defensive position. Willy, after all, was killing the Stros with his defense right?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #150 on: June 22, 2006, 12:32:09 am »
Quote:



I still don't see how I'm trolling.

Doesn't trolling mean going around baiting people and being an ass for no reason?

I'm disputing the claim. It's not like I follow him around heckling him for no reason.  

You still haven't answered me. If his defense was so detrimental to the team, why would Garner leave him in the 9th, shifting Burke to a less demanding defensive position?





Give me a legit reason you refuse to believe what Jim is saying, other than "I don't buy it".
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Re: Willy
« Reply #151 on: June 22, 2006, 12:32:30 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, Willy came in to pinch run for Munson and scored the 5th run.  JD did comment, however, that putting Willy in to PR allowed the Astros to have their best defensive team on the field in the 9th.




Granted. But you'd think if he was such a liability out there in Center, especially compared to Burke, he whouldn't have stayed in for the 9th with a 2 run lead. Ausmus was also a defensive replacement for the 9th btw.




Burke went to left for Preston who hurt his ankle when he stepped on the bat scoring the go ahead run.

Or did I imagine that?




I saw him step over the bat. I'm not sure if he hurt himself, but I don't think he did.

Even if he was hurt, why not have Willy in LF, leaving Burke in the more challenging defensive position. Willy, after all, was killing the Stros with his defense right?




Willy hasn't played left and Burke has.

You're really being obtuse.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #152 on: June 22, 2006, 01:01:40 am »
Quote:

Great. Bust me on something minor like that.




thats awesome.  

its not minor, it was pretty much your entire fucking point.  since said premise was wrong, that kinda makes you wrong too doesnt it?

told you this thread should have been nuked as soon as the dude showed up with the ZR and RF bs, it was only going to go downhill from there.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #153 on: June 22, 2006, 01:02:22 am »
hey, dumbass troll. no one said WT CANNOT play CF. my source told me he WAS NOT playing acceptable defense and that he was showing no instincts as an OF. he also said "WT thinks he has it made." the combination of the two got WT benched in favor of Burke THAT day.

have you ever played anything but Candyland, troll? do you know what benching a player is designed to do? ideally, that player will go to work to get better. apparently, WT had stopped working to improve. if WT goes to work on his deficiencies, he can be a fine player. using him on defense for 3 outs in a 9 inning game is hardly an endorsement of his defensive play.

you think i am making up someone to be an imaginary friend? you think i am lying about what he said? you think, like Neil, he is just some friend i watch a ballgame with and who makes offhand comments with no basis in fact for them? well, fine and dandy. you and Neil think what you want. Neil is a good guy and a fine lawyer, i am sure, but he knows little baseball. you are merely an ankle-biting troll who is here just to agitate.

fuck off. you waste folks' time with your "i don't believe it" drivel. who gives a shit what you believe.

ps Burke was never going to be a MLB hitter swinging the bat the way he did in RR and early in his career. he has worked his butt off to get better. the changes that he has made in his swing are so obvious you might even see it. his approach is exactly what a player like he is needs. i applaud him for the effort he has put into it, and his success at the moment is impressive. the jury still is out on him, of course.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #154 on: June 22, 2006, 01:09:56 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.




!) I don't necessarily believe him.




Telling people that you don't believe them is telling them they're lying.  I'm not your mother, I'm not your etiquette teacher, but I was always taught that telling people they made something up is one of the great transgressions.  People call you a liar, you don't forgive them without an apology.  People who call you a liar are shit.  You may not like Jim, you may be angry at him because from time to time Jim may be rude, that doesn't mean he makes up stuff, or, even if you believe he makes up stuff, you say that he makes up stuff.  I'd suggest that you probably overstated your case, and if you're momma didn't raise no ass you'll tell him so.

I'd also suggest you go back and read the quote I quoted from Alyson Footer, who's generally a very good source.  she also says there are defensive issues with Willy.  She says some other stuff, too, but that's not the issue here.  The issue is that whatever you think is logical, you've got no reason to treat Alyson Footer, and Mark, and Jim as not telling the truth.  Really bad form.

Quote:

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.





You know, Noe loves Occam's razor, which amuses me to no end.  William of Occam (I think) was a scottish Catholic, as I recall, who's the model for the priest in The Name of the Rose, which is a great book.  Occam was a great theologian, and I used to know why, but no longer do.  All I remember about Occam is Occam's razor, which basically says the simplest answer is always the best first choice.  To make Noe happy, and borrow some from Occam, there are two places you can use Occam's Razor here.  First, the simplest answer is that people don't generally talk out of their ass, so don't assume that they are.  You may not have a complete picture of what they were saying, what they're saying may be incomplete (which was my point above), but what they're saying means something.  Second, when you're looking for causation, the simplest answer (and the most logical) may not be the least complicated answer.  If there are three possible causes--Willy's defense has issues, Willy is not taking the advice of his coaches, and Burke's hitting well while Willy's not--then the simplest answer is not 1, 2, or 3, but some of 1, 2, and 3.


Quote:

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.




I wouldn't disagree with you--offense is an obvious reason that Willy's sitting, and Footer says that's part of the reason, but you've got three sources saying defense is at least part of it, Jim, Mark, and Footer.  It's less than logical to ignore three sources, whatever weight you give them.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #155 on: June 22, 2006, 01:17:23 am »
Quote:




You know, Noe loves Occam's razor, which amuses me to no end.  William of Occam (I think) was a scottish Catholic, as I recall, who's the model for the priest in The Name of the Rose, which is a great book.  Occam was a great theologian, and I used to know why, but no longer do.  





Aw shit, I'm really getting old.  I've just confused Occam with Duns Scotus.  I'm not even sure if it's Noe who likes Occam's Razor so much.  So ignore all the stuff about William of Occam being a Scottish theologian, that was all Duns Scotus, even The Name of the Rose.  I think.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #156 on: June 22, 2006, 01:27:06 am »
Quote:

Quote:




You know, Noe loves Occam's razor, which amuses me to no end.  William of Occam (I think) was a scottish Catholic, as I recall, who's the model for the priest in The Name of the Rose, which is a great book.  Occam was a great theologian, and I used to know why, but no longer do.  





Aw shit, I'm really getting old.  I've just confused Occam with Duns Scotus.  I'm not even sure if it's Noe who likes Occam's Razor so much.  So ignore all the stuff about William of Occam being a Scottish theologian, that was all Duns Scotus, even The Name of the Rose.  I think.




Aw shit, shit, I've got this totally bolloxed.  Occam was the reference in Name of the Rose.  

Rice is losing tonight, but nice Astros game tonight.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #157 on: June 22, 2006, 01:30:05 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:




You know, Noe loves Occam's razor, which amuses me to no end.  William of Occam (I think) was a scottish Catholic, as I recall, who's the model for the priest in The Name of the Rose, which is a great book.  Occam was a great theologian, and I used to know why, but no longer do.  





Aw shit, I'm really getting old.  I've just confused Occam with Duns Scotus.  I'm not even sure if it's Noe who likes Occam's Razor so much.  So ignore all the stuff about William of Occam being a Scottish theologian, that was all Duns Scotus, even The Name of the Rose.  I think.




Aw shit, shit, I've got this totally bolloxed.  Occam was the reference in Name of the Rose.  

Rice is losing tonight, but nice Astros game tonight.




Hehehe, bolloxed.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #158 on: June 22, 2006, 01:34:54 am »
Quote:

You still haven't answered me. If his defense was so detrimental to the team, why would Garner leave him in the 9th, shifting Burke to a less demanding defensive position?




What exactly is your question though.  That Willy Taveras has *no* talent to play centerfield?  If so, no one... not Jim, not his credible source (I know who he's talking about), no one!!!  Re-read what the source said in terms of why Willy is expendable to go to the bench and be a late inning defensive replacement at best at this point and time.

They're trying to *teach* the young man that he needs to *improve* and work harder to get better than just relying on talent alone.  He's killing the Astros in the long run if he doesn't continue to work hard.

Good gosh, why is baseball so hard for some to understand?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #159 on: June 22, 2006, 01:43:29 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:




You know, Noe loves Occam's razor, which amuses me to no end.  William of Occam (I think) was a scottish Catholic, as I recall, who's the model for the priest in The Name of the Rose, which is a great book.  Occam was a great theologian, and I used to know why, but no longer do.  





Aw shit, I'm really getting old.  I've just confused Occam with Duns Scotus.  I'm not even sure if it's Noe who likes Occam's Razor so much.  So ignore all the stuff about William of Occam being a Scottish theologian, that was all Duns Scotus, even The Name of the Rose.  I think.




Aw shit, shit, I've got this totally bolloxed.  Occam was the reference in Name of the Rose.  

Rice is losing tonight, but nice Astros game tonight.




I said I don't necessarily believe Jim.. I didn't call him a liar.

If you apply Occam's razor to the Willy/Burke situation...

Which is simpler? That Burke is a better hittar than Willy, the team needed an offensive boost, so Willy sits in favor of Burke... or... Willy (despite the statistical evidence) is "killing" the team with his defense in CF, Burke (despite observational evidence) is as good or better defensively in CF, Willy was left in the game tonight because Preston Wilson stepped on a bat, Willy was left in CF because Burke has played LF before (disregarding the fact that CF is a far more demanding position than LF, especially LF in MMP) etc. etc. etc.


Regarding Jim, this guy is so out of line constantly labeling everybody who disagrees with him a troll. Not to mention his back slapping cadre of supporters always at the ready to defend his honor.

It's just so illogical that Willy is benched for defensive reasons, I can't accept it. Attitude, absolutely, Offense, most certainly. I'll even buy that Willy has regressed defensively from last year, but I don't see any indications of him sliding so far as to have his defense "kill" the Astros, or be worse than Burke.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #160 on: June 22, 2006, 01:44:47 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:




You know, Noe loves Occam's razor, which amuses me to no end.  William of Occam (I think) was a scottish Catholic, as I recall, who's the model for the priest in The Name of the Rose, which is a great book.  Occam was a great theologian, and I used to know why, but no longer do.  





Aw shit, I'm really getting old.  I've just confused Occam with Duns Scotus.  I'm not even sure if it's Noe who likes Occam's Razor so much.  So ignore all the stuff about William of Occam being a Scottish theologian, that was all Duns Scotus, even The Name of the Rose.  I think.




Aw shit, shit, I've got this totally bolloxed.  Occam was the reference in Name of the Rose.  

Rice is losing tonight, but nice Astros game tonight.




Damn Neil, if you're not going to give me a chance to respond then that is not cool at all!  (And yes, I love to quote Occum Razor when the simplest reason is the best reason things occur as they do).

But this entire thread has turned into less about Willy and what is a fair analysis of what has happened *currently* to Taveras career into Jim baiting of knuckleheaded proportions.

Why is it hard to believe that Willy has stopped *working* at improving and decided to rest on his talent alone?  It has happened before by Astros prospects, such as Schilling, Nevin and Redding (to name a few).  The real concern for Willy should be his apparent desire to "big league" his attitude and it seems to be a good thing that the message is being recieved loud and clear right now by Taveras that he can't walk around thinking "there is NO ONE in this team that can play better centerfield than me!  So stop telling me what to do!".

Chris Burke is talented too.  He is also working hard.  And I've seen what a cocky, confident Burke can do too... so Willy can lose his job easily to such a player.  Even one that has not got the aptitude and potential to be good enough defensively to sit his arse down.

There is no zone rating or other bs needed to understand *exactly* what is going on based on some keen inside information.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #161 on: June 22, 2006, 01:48:25 am »
Quote:

Quote:

You still haven't answered me. If his defense was so detrimental to the team, why would Garner leave him in the 9th, shifting Burke to a less demanding defensive position?




What exactly is your question though.  That Willy Taveras has *no* talent to play centerfield?  





Huh?  

Jim reported that the organization believes Willy's defense so detrimental to the team that it is the main impetus for benching him in favor of Burke.

Why then did Garner leave him in at CF, moving Burke over to LF in the 9th?

Was that not a defensive move?

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #162 on: June 22, 2006, 01:50:09 am »
Quote:


I said I don't necessarily believe Jim.. I didn't call him a liar.

If you apply Occam's razor to the Willy/Burke situation...

Which is simpler? That Burke is a better hittar than Willy, the team needed an offensive boost, so Willy sits in favor of Burke... or... Willy (despite the statistical evidence) is "killing" the team with his defense in CF, Burke (despite observational evidence) is as good or better defensively in CF, Willy was left in the game tonight because Preston Wilson stepped on a bat, Willy was left in CF because Burke has played LF before (disregarding the fact that CF is a far more demanding position than LF, especially LF in MMP) etc. etc. etc.


Regarding Jim, this guy is so out of line constantly labeling everybody who disagrees with him a troll. Not to mention his back slapping cadre of supporters always at the ready to defend his honor.

It's just so illogical that Willy is benched for defensive reasons, I can't accept it. Attitude, absolutely, Offense, most certainly. I'll even buy that Willy has regressed defensively from last year, but I don't see any indications of him sliding so far as to have his defense "kill" the Astros, or be worse than Burke.





Fuck you and the statistical bullshit horse you rode in then!  It takes quite a bit of arrogance to come in here and totally disregard solid information that is easily understood for some unknown whack crap you've decided is better and much more applicable because some freaking slide rule tells you so.

You don't *EVEN UNDERSTAND* what was said, which is the saddest part.  So instead you've decided everyone is full of shit and you rule!  That is some world class arrogance to say the least (because it's all about you now and how much you know better than actual inside sources) and for my part it is highly unwelcomed in here.

Adama

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Re: Willy
« Reply #163 on: June 22, 2006, 01:51:21 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:




You know, Noe loves Occam's razor, which amuses me to no end.  William of Occam (I think) was a scottish Catholic, as I recall, who's the model for the priest in The Name of the Rose, which is a great book.  Occam was a great theologian, and I used to know why, but no longer do.  





Aw shit, I'm really getting old.  I've just confused Occam with Duns Scotus.  I'm not even sure if it's Noe who likes Occam's Razor so much.  So ignore all the stuff about William of Occam being a Scottish theologian, that was all Duns Scotus, even The Name of the Rose.  I think.




Aw shit, shit, I've got this totally bolloxed.  Occam was the reference in Name of the Rose.  

Rice is losing tonight, but nice Astros game tonight.




Damn Neil, if you're not going to give me a chance to respond then that is not cool at all!  (And yes, I love to quote Occum Razor when the simplest reason is the best reason things occur as they do).

But this entire thread has turned into less about Willy and what is a fair analysis of what has happened *currently* to Taveras career into Jim baiting of knuckleheaded proportions.

Why is it hard to believe that Willy has stopped *working* at improving and decided to rest on his talent alone?  It has happened before by Astros prospects, such as Schilling, Nevin and Redding (to name a few).  The real concern for Willy should be his apparent desire to "big league" his attitude and it seems to be a good thing that the message is being recieved loud and clear right now by Taveras that he can't walk around thinking "there is NO ONE in this team that can play better centerfield than me!  So stop telling me what to do!".

Chris Burke is talented too.  He is also working hard.  And I've seen what a cocky, confident Burke can do too... so Willy can lose his job easily to such a player.  Even one that has not got the aptitude and potential to be good enough defensively to sit his arse down.

There is no zone rating or other bs needed to understand *exactly* what is going on based on some keen inside information.




Who is baiting Jim? Disagreeing with him is baiting him?

It's not hard to believe that Willy has stopped working. I already said that benching him for attitude problems would make complete sense.  

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #164 on: June 22, 2006, 01:54:15 am »
Quote:

Huh?  




You're not confused, you're either stupid or purposely arrogant.  You tell me.

Quote:

Jim reported that the organization believes Willy's defense so detrimental to the team that it is the main impetus for benching him in favor of Burke.




Look, if you're not going to quote the entirety of what Jim said, then don't bother to continue.  It's dishonest and this act you're putting on is getting old.

Quote:

Why then did Garner leave him in at CF, moving Burke over to LF in the 9th?




Because Willy has two legs and two arms and has played centerfield before?  Are you purposely stupid?  I'm serious when I'm asking this.

Quote:

Was that not a defensive move?




One inning?  Proves what?  That the *OVERALL* context of what is happening to Willy is wrong?  How so?  See, you continue to disavow *EVERYTHING* the source told Jim.  And for that, you're either stupid or trolling.

It better be because you're stupid.  Trust me.

Adama

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Re: Willy
« Reply #165 on: June 22, 2006, 01:54:30 am »
Quote:

Quote:


I said I don't necessarily believe Jim.. I didn't call him a liar.

If you apply Occam's razor to the Willy/Burke situation...

Which is simpler? That Burke is a better hittar than Willy, the team needed an offensive boost, so Willy sits in favor of Burke... or... Willy (despite the statistical evidence) is "killing" the team with his defense in CF, Burke (despite observational evidence) is as good or better defensively in CF, Willy was left in the game tonight because Preston Wilson stepped on a bat, Willy was left in CF because Burke has played LF before (disregarding the fact that CF is a far more demanding position than LF, especially LF in MMP) etc. etc. etc.


Regarding Jim, this guy is so out of line constantly labeling everybody who disagrees with him a troll. Not to mention his back slapping cadre of supporters always at the ready to defend his honor.

It's just so illogical that Willy is benched for defensive reasons, I can't accept it. Attitude, absolutely, Offense, most certainly. I'll even buy that Willy has regressed defensively from last year, but I don't see any indications of him sliding so far as to have his defense "kill" the Astros, or be worse than Burke.





Fuck you and the statistical bullshit horse you rode in then!  It takes quite a bit of arrogance to come in here and totally disregard solid information that is easily understood for some unknown whack crap you've decided is better and much more applicable because some freaking slide rule tells you so.

You don't *EVEN UNDERSTAND* what was said, which is the saddest part.  So instead you've decided everyone is full of shit and you rule!  That is some world class arrogance to say the least (because it's all about you now and how much you know better than actual inside sources) and for my part it is highly unwelcomed in here.





 

What???

I understand exactly what was said. It doesn't make logical sense. I've outlined why. How is that arrogant?

WTF are you talking about with the slide rule shit? Unknown whack crap? I honestly don't even know what you're referring to there.

Adama

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Re: Willy
« Reply #166 on: June 22, 2006, 01:56:09 am »
Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




There you go Noe, I quoted exactly what he said.

Defense is the "sole issue".

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #167 on: June 22, 2006, 01:57:49 am »
Quote:

Who is baiting Jim? Disagreeing with him is baiting him?




You are.

Quote:

It's not hard to believe that Willy has stopped working. I already said that benching him for attitude problems would make complete sense.  




So shut the fuck up then and move on.  Willy thinks he's already *there* defensively.  A source pointed out what Willy's deficiencies are *defensively* that they want him to work on.  Angles, jumps off the bat, etc.  It means exactly what it means.  So why are you continuing to pursue this with Jim as if he said something entirely different?

He didn't.

Chris Burke got his chance because he's working hard, putting in the effort, doing whatever was asked of him by the team and now he's getting his chance.  Why?  Because he's the best defensive centerfielder on the team?  No.  Absolutely no one... *NO ONE* said that.

So stop thinking someone said that!  DAMN!

Adama

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Re: Willy
« Reply #168 on: June 22, 2006, 01:58:39 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Huh?  




You're not confused, you're either stupid or purposely arrogant.  You tell me.

Quote:

Jim reported that the organization believes Willy's defense so detrimental to the team that it is the main impetus for benching him in favor of Burke.




Look, if you're not going to quote the entirety of what Jim said, then don't bother to continue.  It's dishonest and this act you're putting on is getting old.

Quote:

Why then did Garner leave him in at CF, moving Burke over to LF in the 9th?




Because Willy has two legs and two arms and has played centerfield before?  Are you purposely stupid?  I'm serious when I'm asking this.

Quote:

Was that not a defensive move?




One inning?  Proves what?  That the *OVERALL* context of what is happening to Willy is wrong?  How so?  See, you continue to disavow *EVERYTHING* the source told Jim.  And for that, you're either stupid or trolling.

It better be because you're stupid.  Trust me.





I'm confused. I don't know what you were saying. "That Willy has no talent in Centerfield?" I have no idea what you are asking me. Are you asking me if I think that?

Yes, Willy can play CF. So can Bruntlett, so can Berkman, Biggio, Lane, Burke, etc. What's your point? Why would Garner leave in such a terrible defender like Willy in a situation that normally calls for a defensive replacement (which seems to me was part of the plan in pinch running with Willy in the first place).

I'm neither stupid nor trolling. The one inning just flies directly in the face of what Jim is saying about defense being the reason Willy is benched.

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #169 on: June 22, 2006, 01:58:49 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




There you go Noe, I quoted exactly what he said.

Defense is the "sole issue".





In context to a discussion of *offense* being the reason.... you prick!

Adama

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Re: Willy
« Reply #170 on: June 22, 2006, 02:01:39 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Who is baiting Jim? Disagreeing with him is baiting him?




You are.

Quote:

It's not hard to believe that Willy has stopped working. I already said that benching him for attitude problems would make complete sense.  




So shut the fuck up then and move on.  Willy thinks he's already *there* defensively.  A source pointed out what Willy's deficiencies are *defensively* that they want him to work on.  Angles, jumps off the bat, etc.  It means exactly what it means.  So why are you continuing to pursue this with Jim as if he said something entirely different?

He didn't.

Chris Burke got his chance because he's working hard, putting in the effort, doing whatever was asked of him by the team and now he's getting his chance.  Why?  Because he's the best defensive centerfielder on the team?  No.  Absolutely no one... *NO ONE* said that.

So stop thinking someone said that!  DAMN!





I'm not baiting Jim at all.

You seem to be having trouble with the difference in benching somebody because of defensive problems and benching them because of attitude problems.

I never said that Jim said Burke was the best CF on the team defensively. However, if he's not as good as Willy is, and Willy is benched because his defense in CF was "killing" the team, it doesn't make logical sense that Burke would play instead of Willy. If indeed the reason Willy is benched is for defense, which is what I'm disputing.

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #171 on: June 22, 2006, 02:02:18 am »
Quote:

What???




You're either stupid or arrogant.

Quote:

I understand exactly what was said.




No you don't, at least you have not proved it yet!

Quote:

It doesn't make logical sense. I've outlined why. How is that arrogant?




It makes all the sense in the world that Willy's defense, while the best option for what is on the 25 man roster, still *NEEDS* improvement and the Astros want Willy to work at it.  And he doesn't.  So when someone says that Willy's defense is getting him in trouble and they bother to outline the context of that statement, you still don't GET IT!

Like I said, you're either stupid or arrogant.

Quote:

WTF are you talking about with the slide rule shit? Unknown whack crap? I honestly don't even know what you're referring to there.




Maybe you can look it up on a zone rating chart.

Adama

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Re: Willy
« Reply #172 on: June 22, 2006, 02:02:27 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




There you go Noe, I quoted exactly what he said.

Defense is the "sole issue".




In context to a discussion of *offense* being the reason.... you prick!




What?

Quote the context then. Explain how the context changes the substance of what I quoted.

Adama

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Re: Willy
« Reply #173 on: June 22, 2006, 02:03:45 am »
Quote:

Quote:

What???




You're either stupid or arrogant.

Quote:

I understand exactly what was said.




No you don't, at least you have not proved it yet!

Quote:

It doesn't make logical sense. I've outlined why. How is that arrogant?




It makes all the sense in the world that Willy's defense, while the best option for what is on the 25 man roster, still *NEEDS* improvement and the Astros want Willy to work at it.  And he doesn't.  So when someone says that Willy's defense is getting him in trouble and they bother to outline the context of that statement, you still don't GET IT!

Like I said, you're either stupid or arrogant.

Quote:

WTF are you talking about with the slide rule shit? Unknown whack crap? I honestly don't even know what you're referring to there.




Maybe you can look it up on a zone rating chart.





What you're describing is an attitude problem.

Look it up on a zone rating chart?

Your insecurities with regards to statistical analysis amuse me.

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #174 on: June 22, 2006, 02:05:11 am »
Quote:

I'm not baiting Jim at all.




Probably not, you're just stupid (or arrogant).

Quote:

You seem to be having trouble with the difference in benching somebody because of defensive problems and benching them because of attitude problems.




GOOD LORD!!! YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!!! AMAZING!!!

Quote:

I never said that Jim said Burke was the best CF on the team defensively. However, if he's not as good as Willy is, and Willy is benched because his defense in CF was "killing" the team, it doesn't make logical sense that Burke would play instead of Willy. If indeed the reason Willy is benched is for defense, which is what I'm disputing.




You are stuck in your own ignorance.  I believe you just are stupid when it comes to this very easy to understand move on the teams part.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #175 on: June 22, 2006, 02:07:52 am »
Quote:

Quote:

I'm not baiting Jim at all.




Probably not, you're just stupid (or arrogant).

Quote:

You seem to be having trouble with the difference in benching somebody because of defensive problems and benching them because of attitude problems.




GOOD LORD!!! YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!!! AMAZING!!!

Quote:

I never said that Jim said Burke was the best CF on the team defensively. However, if he's not as good as Willy is, and Willy is benched because his defense in CF was "killing" the team, it doesn't make logical sense that Burke would play instead of Willy. If indeed the reason Willy is benched is for defense, which is what I'm disputing.




You are stuck in your own ignorance.  I believe you just are stupid when it comes to this very easy to understand move on the teams part.





You're right about one thing. It is a very easy to understand move.

It has to do with Willy's .319 OBP at the top of the lineup, and Burke's mashing of everything in sight.

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #176 on: June 22, 2006, 02:10:49 am »
Quote:

I'm neither stupid nor trolling.




Yes you are.

Quote:

The one inning just flies directly in the face of what Jim is saying about defense being the reason Willy is benched.




You just proved it again.

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #177 on: June 22, 2006, 02:14:26 am »
Quote:

What you're describing is an attitude problem.




So you think Willy has *nothing* to work on defensively in centerfield?  The Astros do not know what they want from him?  That this whole thing was to catch Willy in an attitude and thus bench him?  No, it starts with real substantive information on what he needs to work on by the team to Willy... and it's defensive improvement... not offense!  And Willy didn't want to listen!

Quote:

Look it up on a zone rating chart?

Your insecurities with regards to statistical analysis amuse me.





And your stupidity doesn't amuse me... it saddens me.

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #178 on: June 22, 2006, 02:16:16 am »
Quote:

You're right about one thing. It is a very easy to understand move.

It has to do with Willy's .319 OBP at the top of the lineup, and Burke's mashing of everything in sight.





*sigh*, stats... the end all, be all!  So be it... live in your fantasy world of baseball.  Just stay away from baseball talk... you hurt yourself trying to keep up.

Might I suggest you visit a fan forum with fantasy baseball forums instead?

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #179 on: June 22, 2006, 02:22:34 am »
Quote:

What?

Quote the context then. Explain how the context changes the substance of what I quoted.





You see, when Jim responds to someone, their name appears on the top of his post... in this case it was Froback, who said *THIS* (the context):

Quote:

I don't think Willy's defense is the issue. I think there are no doubts Willy is a better defensive CFer than Burke. The reason for the move and the reason it has stuck, is that the offense was a mess...




See, the context of the move itself was one many were opining that it was an offensively derived reason.  And Jim then provided the *sole* response in order to point TZers in here to what he was told.

And yet... it's taken you this long, almost nine pages worth later... to still *NOT GET IT*!?!?  Incredible.  I will say it again, you didn't read or even understand what Jim said in it's entirety.  And then you decide to attack Jim, his source and the rest of us who do understand as being all full of shit.

Incredibly arrogant or stupid as far as I can see.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #180 on: June 22, 2006, 02:28:07 am »
Who cares whether the "inside source" told Jim R. anything or not. The opinion still makes absolutely no sense logically, by observation or statistically, or by Occam's Razor.

It's obvious Burke is a much better hitter, correct?

It's obvious that Burke has absolutely no experience in CF, which is a difficult, but very important position, correct?
His deffensive shortcomings have been discuseed here in detail.

Jim said very clearly that the sole reason for it was defensively.

It makes no sense.

So, what exactly is the problem with Willy T?s defense in CF, anyway?

I know most here do not believe in statistical analysis of defense and I agree that it has serious flaws. I guess the consensus here is the best way to evaluate defense is by personal observation by people that know the game. I?ve recently read here that: he takes bad angles or poor lines to the ball, turns the wrong way, misjudges fly balls and takes missteps. When did this start? I think it?s beyond dispute here that Willy T was a stellar defensive CF last season. I would assume that collectively someone from this forum has watched every inning of every Astros game this year.  Had anyone here noticed his defensive decline before Jim R.?s ?inside source? said Willy T was killing the team defensively? Had anyone commented on it?  Had any of the journalists that cover the Astros commented that we may have a problem of any kind with his defense in CF? (I know you don?t trust them, but I wonder if any of them even had raised the issue) Had Garner ever said that there was a problem with his defense? Perhaps he wouldn?t say something direct against Willy T like that to the media. Had he ever said anything more general like ?our defense in the OF is not what I would like? or ?we need to be getting to more balls in the OF? or ?we need to get better play from our OF?? Had any of the players?  I?m not aware of anything like that, but I probably don?t keep up like you guys and may have missed it.

Even though it has it?s flaws, statistical analysis of defense can tell you something or can help confirm observations. Willy Ts defensive stats are:
Range Factor (put outs + assists divided by 9 innings) = 2.5
Zone Rating (percentage of fly balls fielded within his ?defensive zone?) = .880
Fielding Percentage .981
Someone has posted that these put him in the middle of the pack of CF this season. I compared them to what he did in 2005, when he was undisputedly very good defensively and the numbers are almost exactly the same ? maybe a bit better.

Now Garner puts him in CF to close out a game. Sure it's just 1 inning, but it was the 9th with a lead (when 1-2 games at the end might mean getting to the playoffs) --- rather important.

You guys make it about Jim and his "inside source". I think the opinion is nonsense.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #181 on: June 22, 2006, 02:35:57 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Willy's defense is the sole issue. i reported after my trip to Houston that a scout friend had told me that WT is "killing the Astros" with bad defense. it is the sole reason they tried Burke there.




There you go Noe, I quoted exactly what he said.

Defense is the "sole issue".




In context to a discussion of *offense* being the reason.... you prick!




Now that's a great one !!!!!

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #182 on: June 22, 2006, 02:56:23 am »
Quote:

Who cares whether the "inside source" told Jim R. anything or not.




Well, Willy Taveras for one.  That is why he lost his job.

Quote:

The opinion still makes absolutely no sense logically, by observation or statistically, or by Occam's Razor.




The Astros see deficiencies in his game, ask him to work on it, he doesn't do it and continues to struggle on offense to boot.  In comes Burke.  Jim's source cites the former as the impetus for everything snowballing for Taveras to get his arse on the bench.  You and others decide the latter is the logical reason.  Even when you were told to look beyond what your pointy little head says to you.  Had Burke not work his arse off to take this opportunity and run with it, the Astros would probably make another move to change things.

They were not going to let Taveras big league them, not anymore than they let Redding or anybody else do it.  And Taveras, from my understanding (based on his meeting with Garner in his office several weeks ago), has recieved the message and understands now he's just going to have to wait for *HIS* opportunity to get back his job.  Make take months, may take weeks, may take days... but he has to wait.

And it all started with defensive deficiencies.

Quote:

It's obvious Burke is a much better hitter, correct?




It's obvious Burke is working harder than Taveras... the results point to the work ethic.  But you can't see obvious defensive deficiencies like the Astros can, correct?  You don't have any inside knowledge, correct?  You won't listen, correct?  You're a troll, correct?

Quote:

It's obvious that Burke has absolutely no experience in CF, which is a difficult, but very important position, correct?




Like Biggio?
 
Quote:

His deffensive shortcomings have been discuseed here in detail.




Tell me, verbatim what I said about Burke in centerfield.  I can't wait to read how you're going to misquote what I said too.

Quote:

Jim said very clearly that the sole reason for it was defensively.




IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO ASSERTIONS THAT IT WAS OFFENSE!  Gosh, you folks just can't get it, can you?  I'm thinking the baseball stupidity is a curse for some of you!

Quote:

It makes no sense.




Why are you and Adama the only ones having trouble understanding it then?  Does that make sense to you?  It does to me!

Quote:

So, what exactly is the problem with Willy T?s defense in CF, anyway?




OMG!!!! You didn't read what Jim posted at all, did you!?!?!

Quote:

I know most here do not believe in statistical analysis of defense and I agree that it has serious flaws. I guess the consensus here is the best way to evaluate defense is by personal observation by people that know the game. I?ve recently read here that: he takes bad angles or poor lines to the ball, turns the wrong way, misjudges fly balls and takes missteps. When did this start?




When the Astros noticed it as a recurring problem... why do you ask?

Quote:

I think it?s beyond dispute here that Willy T was a stellar defensive CF last season.




Not really.  Jose Cruz had to work hard with Willy last year to help him improve.  And he still needs more improvement.  In AA, he had much better reads defensively, but he didn't play in big stadiums either.  Willy didn't play AAA, he jumped directly to the big leagues from AA.  Some scouts believed his defense was *good enough* for the majors, but they found out soon enough *last year* he needed to work at it.  He apparently still does.

Quote:

I would assume that collectively someone from this forum has watched every inning of every Astros game this year.  Had anyone here noticed his defensive decline before Jim R.?s ?inside source? said Willy T was killing the team defensively? Had anyone commented on it?




Did anyone in here bench Willy?  What the fuck is your problem with the Astros running their own organization?

Quote:

Had any of the journalists that cover the Astros commented that we may have a problem of any kind with his defense in CF? (I know you don?t trust them, but I wonder if any of them even had raised the issue)




Read what Neil said about Alysson Footer.

Quote:

Had Garner ever said that there was a problem with his defense? Perhaps he wouldn?t say something direct against Willy T like that to the media.




Then why do you ask?

Quote:

Had he ever said anything more general like ?our defense in the OF is not what I would like? or ?we need to be getting to more balls in the OF? or ?we need to get better play from our OF?? Had any of the players?  I?m not aware of anything like that, but I probably don?t keep up like you guys and may have missed it.




So you have no prior knowledge, but Jim does and he's the one that is not believeable?  Amazing.  I know Jim's source and he is not a person that needs to be qualified for you or anybody else sake.  If you just don't want to understand/believe/give Jim credit, then say so and get out of this thread.  It's easier that way.

Quote:

Even though it has it?s flaws, statistical analysis of defense can tell you something or can help confirm observations. Willy Ts defensive stats are:
Range Factor (put outs + assists divided by 9 innings) = 2.5
Zone Rating (percentage of fly balls fielded within his ?defensive zone?) = .880
Fielding Percentage .981
Someone has posted that these put him in the middle of the pack of CF this season. I compared them to what he did in 2005, when he was undisputedly very good defensively and the numbers are almost exactly the same ? maybe a bit better.





Oh good Lord! *sigh*   Go away, please.

Quote:

Now Garner puts him in CF to close out a game. Sure it's just 1 inning, but it was the 9th with a lead (when 1-2 games at the end might mean getting to the playoffs) --- rather important.




Again, because Willy T is still a good player and defensively he can help the team win by coming off the bench and playing centerfield for them.  And if he wants his full time job back, he better listen next time and also put in the work.  He's going to have to wait for that opportunity now, that's just the way it goes.

Quote:

You guys make it about Jim and his "inside source". I think the opinion is nonsense.




Nonsense because some whack defensive metric says so.  Okay, but I'd rather trust Jim's source over "1+1=2 but take away the 3, add a 5, sub-divide it by a random chance of 13 to get your rating" metric.  That's just me.

Oh, and you're full of shit too!

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #183 on: June 22, 2006, 02:57:31 am »
Quote:

Now that's a great one !!!!!




You like that, eh?  I've got another one: You're full of shit!  Nice, eh?!?!  

shortstop

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Re: Willy
« Reply #184 on: June 22, 2006, 03:10:20 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Who cares whether the "inside source" told Jim R. anything or not.




Well, Willy Taveras for one.  That is why he lost his job.

Quote:

The opinion still makes absolutely no sense logically, by observation or statistically, or by Occam's Razor.




The Astros see deficiencies in his game, ask him to work on it, he doesn't do it and continues to struggle on offense to boot.  In comes Burke.  Jim's source cites the former as the impetus for everything snowballing for Taveras to get his arse on the bench.  You and others decide the latter is the logical reason.  Even when you were told to look beyond what your pointy little head says to you.  Had Burke not work his arse off to take this opportunity and run with it, the Astros would probably make another move to change things.

They were not going to let Taveras big league them, not anymore than they let Redding or anybody else do it.  And Taveras, from my understanding (based on his meeting with Garner in his office several weeks ago), has recieved the message and understands now he's just going to have to wait for *HIS* opportunity to get back his job.  Make take months, may take weeks, may take days... but he has to wait.

And it all started with defensive deficiencies.

Quote:

It's obvious Burke is a much better hitter, correct?




It's obvious Burke is working harder than Taveras... the results point to the work ethic.  But you can't see obvious defensive deficiencies like the Astros can, correct?  You don't have any inside knowledge, correct?  You won't listen, correct?  You're a troll, correct?

Quote:

It's obvious that Burke has absolutely no experience in CF, which is a difficult, but very important position, correct?




Like Biggio?
 
Quote:

His deffensive shortcomings have been discuseed here in detail.




Tell me, verbatim what I said about Burke in centerfield.  I can't wait to read how you're going to misquote what I said too.

Quote:

Jim said very clearly that the sole reason for it was defensively.




IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO ASSERTIONS THAT IT WAS OFFENSE!  Gosh, you folks just can't get it, can you?  I'm thinking the baseball stupidity is a curse for some of you!

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It makes no sense.




Why are you and Adama the only ones having trouble understanding it then?  Does that make sense to you?  It does to me!

Quote:

So, what exactly is the problem with Willy T?s defense in CF, anyway?




OMG!!!! You didn't read what Jim posted at all, did you!?!?!

Quote:

I know most here do not believe in statistical analysis of defense and I agree that it has serious flaws. I guess the consensus here is the best way to evaluate defense is by personal observation by people that know the game. I?ve recently read here that: he takes bad angles or poor lines to the ball, turns the wrong way, misjudges fly balls and takes missteps. When did this start?




When the Astros noticed it as a recurring problem... why do you ask?

Quote:

I think it?s beyond dispute here that Willy T was a stellar defensive CF last season.




Not really.  Jose Cruz had to work hard with Willy last year to help him improve.  And he still needs more improvement.  In AA, he had much better reads defensively, but he didn't play in big stadiums either.  Willy didn't play AAA, he jumped directly to the big leagues from AA.  Some scouts believed his defense was *good enough* for the majors, but they found out soon enough *last year* he needed to work at it.  He apparently still does.

Quote:

I would assume that collectively someone from this forum has watched every inning of every Astros game this year.  Had anyone here noticed his defensive decline before Jim R.?s ?inside source? said Willy T was killing the team defensively? Had anyone commented on it?




Did anyone in here bench Willy?  What the fuck is your problem with the Astros running their own organization?

Quote:

Had any of the journalists that cover the Astros commented that we may have a problem of any kind with his defense in CF? (I know you don?t trust them, but I wonder if any of them even had raised the issue)




Read what Neil said about Alysson Footer.

Quote:

Had Garner ever said that there was a problem with his defense? Perhaps he wouldn?t say something direct against Willy T like that to the media.




Then why do you ask?

Quote:

Had he ever said anything more general like ?our defense in the OF is not what I would like? or ?we need to be getting to more balls in the OF? or ?we need to get better play from our OF?? Had any of the players?  I?m not aware of anything like that, but I probably don?t keep up like you guys and may have missed it.




So you have no prior knowledge, but Jim does and he's the one that is not believeable?  Amazing.  I know Jim's source and he is not a person that needs to be qualified for you or anybody else sake.  If you just don't want to understand/believe/give Jim credit, then say so and get out of this thread.  It's easier that way.

Quote:

Even though it has it?s flaws, statistical analysis of defense can tell you something or can help confirm observations. Willy Ts defensive stats are:
Range Factor (put outs + assists divided by 9 innings) = 2.5
Zone Rating (percentage of fly balls fielded within his ?defensive zone?) = .880
Fielding Percentage .981
Someone has posted that these put him in the middle of the pack of CF this season. I compared them to what he did in 2005, when he was undisputedly very good defensively and the numbers are almost exactly the same ? maybe a bit better.





Oh good Lord! *sigh*   Go away, please.

Quote:

Now Garner puts him in CF to close out a game. Sure it's just 1 inning, but it was the 9th with a lead (when 1-2 games at the end might mean getting to the playoffs) --- rather important.




Again, because Willy T is still a good player and defensively he can help the team win by coming off the bench and playing centerfield for them.  And if he wants his full time job back, he better listen next time and also put in the work.  He's going to have to wait for that opportunity now, that's just the way it goes.

Quote:

You guys make it about Jim and his "inside source". I think the opinion is nonsense.




Nonsense because some whack defensive metric says so.  Okay, but I'd rather trust Jim's source over "1+1=2 but take away the 3, add a 5, sub-divide it by a random chance of 13 to get your rating" metric.  That's just me.

Oh, and you're full of shit too!




Get over yourself, man ... life is short.

MRaup

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Re: Willy
« Reply #185 on: June 22, 2006, 03:13:17 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Now that's a great one !!!!!




You like that, eh?  I've got another one: You're full of shit!  Nice, eh?!?!  





Wierd how Adam vanishes and suddenly stalkerstop appears to keep up the good fight, no?
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otterj

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Re: Willy
« Reply #186 on: June 22, 2006, 05:43:14 am »
a giant jackoff at the jackoff-coral, for the sake of jacking off...

NeilT

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Re: Willy
« Reply #187 on: June 22, 2006, 09:54:44 am »
Quote:

Who cares whether the "inside source" told Jim R. anything or not. The opinion still makes absolutely no sense logically, by observation or statistically, or by Occam's Razor.

It's obvious Burke is a much better hitter, correct?

It's obvious that Burke has absolutely no experience in CF, which is a difficult, but very important position, correct?
His deffensive shortcomings have been discuseed here in detail.

Jim said very clearly that the sole reason for it was defensively.

It makes no sense.

So, what exactly is the problem with Willy T?s defense in CF, anyway?

I know most here do not believe in statistical analysis of defense and I agree that it has serious flaws. I guess the consensus here is the best way to evaluate defense is by personal observation by people that know the game. I?ve recently read here that: he takes bad angles or poor lines to the ball, turns the wrong way, misjudges fly balls and takes missteps. When did this start? I think it?s beyond dispute here that Willy T was a stellar defensive CF last season. I would assume that collectively someone from this forum has watched every inning of every Astros game this year.  Had anyone here noticed his defensive decline before Jim R.?s ?inside source? said Willy T was killing the team defensively? Had anyone commented on it?  Had any of the journalists that cover the Astros commented that we may have a problem of any kind with his defense in CF? (I know you don?t trust them, but I wonder if any of them even had raised the issue) Had Garner ever said that there was a problem with his defense? Perhaps he wouldn?t say something direct against Willy T like that to the media. Had he ever said anything more general like ?our defense in the OF is not what I would like? or ?we need to be getting to more balls in the OF? or ?we need to get better play from our OF?? Had any of the players?  I?m not aware of anything like that, but I probably don?t keep up like you guys and may have missed it.

Even though it has it?s flaws, statistical analysis of defense can tell you something or can help confirm observations. Willy Ts defensive stats are:
Range Factor (put outs + assists divided by 9 innings) = 2.5
Zone Rating (percentage of fly balls fielded within his ?defensive zone?) = .880
Fielding Percentage .981
Someone has posted that these put him in the middle of the pack of CF this season. I compared them to what he did in 2005, when he was undisputedly very good defensively and the numbers are almost exactly the same ? maybe a bit better.

Now Garner puts him in CF to close out a game. Sure it's just 1 inning, but it was the 9th with a lead (when 1-2 games at the end might mean getting to the playoffs) --- rather important.

You guys make it about Jim and his "inside source". I think the opinion is nonsense.





I'm the first person to say the Astros were looking to get Burke into the lineup day to day, and that if Willy had been hitting, Willy's defense would have looked a whole lot better.  Jim's source says it was solely defense, and I don't necessarily think that paints a very complete picture of what happened, either.  Now if that's what Adam is saying, fine.  He doesn't believe Jim's a liar, he simply doesn't believe the Astros' scout's--or possibly the Astros'--description was complete.  That's a fair argument.  Happens all the time.

Footer says that two things happened, Willy had issues on defense while Burke started hitting.  Did I see the decline in defense?  Nope.  I don't have good enough sense from day to day to really see any decline.  I see a play, it's good, I see another play, it's bad.  I'm not even a particularly good judge of good or bad. I think Biggio's defense has declined, and I think he's hurting I and I at 2d, but do I know it?  Nope.   But here's where you and Adam are a bit off, in my mind, in this discussion:  what's said was said.  It was said by Jim's friend, and Mark heard it, and it was said by Footer.  Solely defense?  Well, no, not in my mind, but that doesn't mean I can ignore the statements, either.  Footer says defense issues and Willy's failed offense.  Is Footer a good source?  Usually.  Jim's friend says defense and coaching issues.  Coaching issues could certainly include offense, and isn't necessarily solely defense, either.  Is Jim's friend a good source?  Jim thinks so, and I've got no particular reason to doubt it, even if I question the meaning of his statement.  Solely defense may be inconsistent with a lot of things, how Garner treats his players, Burke's streak,  Taveras's great defense last year, but that doesn't mean he isn't having defensive issues this year.  Defense as one issue isn't inconsistent with anything, whether the other thing is coaching issues or lack of offense or all 3.

I like numbers because they let me judge things over time that I couldn't otherwise judge, but I remember reading something by James (maybe it was James, but maybe it was Duns Scotus) about defensive numbers years ago that was so terrific:  look at the numbers.  when the great mass of the players are differentiated by a 100th of a percentage point, you know there's something wrong with the metric even without understanding the metric.  If you were using range factor to tell the difference between me, say, and Adam Everett, say, the difference would tell you something.  But even without understanding the flaws in the metrics themselves the difference between Chris Burke, with a fpct of 1.000, and Daryl Ward, with a fpct of 1.000, tells me there's something weird about the numbers.  The first 54 outfielders all have a range factor of 1.000 right now, and the difference between the first 54 and Lance Berkman (who happens to be #100) is .04.  That's just meaningless, unless it means that all major league outfielders are essentially the same (which of course is one explanation, and has some degree of truth to it).   And Range Factor is so governed by opportunity that again, it just doesn't tell you much.  Zone Factor, as I recall, was James's own statistic, and he's still trying to make it work.

In the Defensive Bible, Willy was the top rated defensive centerfielder last year, and as defensive metrics go, that's the best I know of.  He played great defensive centerfield.  I don't have that metric this year, so all I can go by is what's been said.  I may think that saying "solely" defense is FACT is whack, even if a great source like Pravata said it, but that doesn't mean defense as an issue is meaningless, either.

What do I think?  I think if Willy was hitting, he'd be our central gardner.  That's not inconsistent with what I understand Jim's friend to have said, at least as I read it:  If Willy was hitting, it's perfectly possible that the coaching issues would be largely diminished.  I don't think Burke would be in centerfield if the issue was "solely" offense, either.  Taveras is potentially too good a defensive centerfielder, and Garner is generally too patient with his players to bench Taveras because of a bad game, or a week or a month of bad games.  But not hitting by Taveras and very good defense by Burke has put Taveras on the bench.
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NeilT

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Re: Willy
« Reply #188 on: June 22, 2006, 10:08:46 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

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I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.




!) I don't necessarily believe him.

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.




Well, once again, since you apparently can't read, I WAS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO JIM when he was told this. If you don't want to believe it, fine. Nobody is making you. But I'll take the word of a MLB team employee that is privy to behind the scenes meetings with Astros brass over you, who just doesn't believe it because... well, whatever your fucktard opinion over why you think Jim'd like about it is.




Well look at that.

Guess who Garner put in as a 9th inning  defensive replacement in centerfield, sliding Burke to leftfield?

Yep. It's mister "destroying the Astros with his piss poor defense" Willy T.

I don't believe in what he's saying because it doesn't make logical sense, not because I have some imaginary vendetta against Jim.




Garner brought Willy T in to run for Munson, and left him in.  He took Munson out and replaced him with Ausmus.  I thought he took Biggio out and moved Burke to 2d, but I guess that was wishful thinking.  
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BudGirl

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Re: Willy
« Reply #189 on: June 22, 2006, 10:27:36 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.




!) I don't necessarily believe him.

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.




Well, once again, since you apparently can't read, I WAS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO JIM when he was told this. If you don't want to believe it, fine. Nobody is making you. But I'll take the word of a MLB team employee that is privy to behind the scenes meetings with Astros brass over you, who just doesn't believe it because... well, whatever your fucktard opinion over why you think Jim'd like about it is.




Well look at that.

Guess who Garner put in as a 9th inning  defensive replacement in centerfield, sliding Burke to leftfield?

Yep. It's mister "destroying the Astros with his piss poor defense" Willy T.

I don't believe in what he's saying because it doesn't make logical sense, not because I have some imaginary vendetta against Jim.




Garner brought Willy T in to run for Munson, and left him in.  He took Munson out and replaced him with Ausmus.  I thought he took Biggio out and moved Burke to 2d, but I guess that was wishful thinking.  




I thought he stayed in cause of Preston and the bat.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #190 on: June 22, 2006, 10:32:19 am »
Neil, this is an incredible obstinate statement: "What do I think? I think if Willy was hitting, he'd be our central gardner. That's not inconsistent with what I understand Jim's friend to have said, at least as I read it: If Willy was hitting, it's perfectly possible that the coaching issues would be largely diminished." it tells me that you share one trait with adama and shortstop: baseball decisions are valid to you only if they make sense to you and are logical by your standards. that is thickheaded and approaching dumb. my friend, who troll thinks is imaginary and whose statements you reject because they make no sense to you, did not say anything anywhere near your interpretation. hitting had nothing to do with anything. it had to do with his lack of instincts in the OF and his "i have it made attitude" that is why Burke took his place on 6/3.

i may be wrong about this, but it is researchable, and there are many who post here to tell me i am wrong. i believe that on 6/3, Burke's average had fallen about 100 points since he came off the DL, and i think he was hitting around 10 points higher than Willy. the move was a demotion for Willy to try to wake him up and it was a tryout for Burke, who had played CF in the minors, and an attempt to find a spot for him. the idea that if Willy was hitting there would be no coaching issue is made up out of whole cloth to justify obstinance.

your fallacy, Neil, which others share, it that there must be a "right" or "logical" answer for every decision. that simply is not true. there are no right answers like adding columns of numbers; there are baseball reasons for decisions, and it does not matter one bit if you do not think they are logical. the fact is that manangement was dissatisfied with WT's play in CF and with his attitude toward what he needed to do. they wanted to see if Burke could handle it, but they by no means gave up on Willy. the ball was in his court. then Burke went on a torrid hitting streak. from the comments i have read from him, Willy got the wakeup call. baseball reasons do not have to be logical to you or to even make sense to you.

adama's reliance on zone rating and range factor makes him no longer worthy of serious consideration, if he ever was. for shortstop, it is all about me. he is just one more in a series of stalkers who live to discredit anything i say. how flattering.

finally, the idea that Noe or Mark or HH or pravata or any of the other regulars who sometimes agree with me do not have independent minds is repugnant. they say what they think. they disagree with me plenty, i am sure.

the guy i know needs no defense from me. his credentials as an expert might even satisfy Neil. if he tells me something, it is based on what he has seen or knows or has been told. he is more connected in more places than all but a few because he has spent a lifetime making those connections. if you folks choose to reject his information as illogical, ok. i cannot imagine a more arrogant position than Neil's last post or in the incredible posts last night. decisions baseball people make are not about you or what you think. they do not have to make sense to you. all they have to do is to make sense to the person making them.

Willy got benched because THE BALLCLUB, not a group of internet posters, was dissatisfied with his play in CF and with his attitude toward working to improve. if he were hitting .305, they still would have been dissatisfied. they gave him a wakeup call, and Burke ran with his chance.

believe it or not. it does not matter one way or the other. folks who cannot separate offense from defense never will get it. fantasy teams are where they should be.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #191 on: June 22, 2006, 10:33:34 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.




!) I don't necessarily believe him.

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.




Well, once again, since you apparently can't read, I WAS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO JIM when he was told this. If you don't want to believe it, fine. Nobody is making you. But I'll take the word of a MLB team employee that is privy to behind the scenes meetings with Astros brass over you, who just doesn't believe it because... well, whatever your fucktard opinion over why you think Jim'd like about it is.




Well look at that.

Guess who Garner put in as a 9th inning  defensive replacement in centerfield, sliding Burke to leftfield?

Yep. It's mister "destroying the Astros with his piss poor defense" Willy T.

I don't believe in what he's saying because it doesn't make logical sense, not because I have some imaginary vendetta against Jim.




Garner brought Willy T in to run for Munson, and left him in.  He took Munson out and replaced him with Ausmus.  I thought he took Biggio out and moved Burke to 2d, but I guess that was wishful thinking.  




I thought he stayed in cause of Preston and the bat.




Yeah. Biggio didn't get replaced and botched the would-be third out.

Burke went to left because Preston turned his ankle scoring the winning run. Willy went to center.
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NeilT

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Re: Willy
« Reply #192 on: June 22, 2006, 10:33:49 am »
Quote:

hyou think i am lying about what he said? you think, like Neil, he is just some friend i watch a ballgame with and who makes offhand comments with no basis in fact for them? well, fine and dandy. you and Neil think what you want. Neil is a good guy and a fine lawyer, i am sure, but he knows little baseball.




Now that's not exactly what I said, what I said was that talking to someone at a ball game is different from testing what they're saying to figure out exactly what it means.  The other part I'll agree with.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

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Re: Willy
« Reply #193 on: June 22, 2006, 11:43:16 am »
I disagree with Jim quite often, but I have never had any reason to believe that he is not 100% truthful in what he says.

Also, I don't think Burke necessarily has to be a better defensive center fielder to replace Taveras if Taveras' problem is that his defense needs work and he has attitude problems. Rather, Burke just has to be good enough to do the job while Taveras is benched, so that Taveras can spend some time thinking about whether he wants to work on his defensive flaws or whether he thinks he still has it made.

P.S. This is not directed at you, Neil, I'm just too lazy to go find the correct post to respond to.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #194 on: June 22, 2006, 11:46:43 am »
Quote:

Get over yourself, man ... life is short.




You get treated the way you desire.  You don't like it, then stop asking for it.  But if you want to keep it up, then don't whine about the responses either.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #195 on: June 22, 2006, 11:53:06 am »
Quote:

Neil, this is an incredible obstinate statement: "What do I think? I think if Willy was hitting, he'd be our central gardner. That's not inconsistent with what I understand Jim's friend to have said, at least as I read it: If Willy was hitting, it's perfectly possible that the coaching issues would be largely diminished." it tells me that you share one trait with adama and shortstop: baseball decisions are valid to you only if they make sense to you and are logical by your standards. that is thickheaded and approaching dumb. my friend, who troll thinks is imaginary and whose statements you reject because they make no sense to you, did not say anything anywhere near your interpretation. hitting had nothing to do with anything. it had to do with his lack of instincts in the OF and his "i have it made attitude" that is why Burke took his place on 6/3.

 





Jim, that's exactly why I said what do I think?  It's worth exactly that.  If I'm obstinate, or wrong, or too reliant on my own reasoning, you can judge that for what it's worth, as can anyone else who's bothering to read all this. As you say, what I think makes no difference to what the club did.  I am, though, trying to reconcile what Footer said to what you said, and yeah, I do think Footer is generally a good reporter.  What she said may be her opinion, too, and it may be completely wrong.

No great stickler for certainty here, and no great truster of my own stuff.
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No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #196 on: June 22, 2006, 11:57:19 am »
Quote:

Also, I don't think Burke necessarily has to be a better defensive center fielder to replace Taveras if Taveras' problem is that his defense needs work and he has attitude problems. Rather, Burke just has to be good enough to do the job while Taveras is benched, so that Taveras can spend some time thinking about whether he wants to work on his defensive flaws or whether he thinks he still has it made.




Well said!  I can't imagine why it is hard for any logical person to fail to see exactly this point!

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Re: Willy
« Reply #197 on: June 22, 2006, 12:01:24 pm »
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I disagree with Jim quite often, but I have never had any reason to believe that he is not 100% truthful in what he says.

Also, I don't think Burke necessarily has to be a better defensive center fielder to replace Taveras if Taveras' problem is that his defense needs work and he has attitude problems. Rather, Burke just has to be good enough to do the job while Taveras is benched, so that Taveras can spend some time thinking about whether he wants to work on his defensive flaws or whether he thinks he still has it made.

P.S. This is not directed at you, Neil, I'm just too lazy to go find the correct post to respond to.





Agreed.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #198 on: June 22, 2006, 12:06:17 pm »
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I don't subscribe to the Gospel of Jim.

It doesn't make sense that Willy's defense cost him the starting role in favor of Burke. Willy is a better centerfielder than Burke, and a worse hitter. If defense was the problem, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody better in the area of deficiency?





One more time for the reading comprehensionless...

HE IS REPEATING WORD FOR WORD WHAT A MLB INSIDER TOLD HIM!!!!!

There is no gospel of anyone except what a MLB insider told him.

You're a fucking moron.




!) I don't necessarily believe him.

2) Even if true, we have no idea who this "insider" is. He might just be talking out of his ass.

3) Logical analysis of the situation points to offense (and/or attitude, i'll grant you that) as the reason for Burke replacing Willy. It makes no sense period that defense is the reason Willy is sitting.




Well, once again, since you apparently can't read, I WAS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO JIM when he was told this. If you don't want to believe it, fine. Nobody is making you. But I'll take the word of a MLB team employee that is privy to behind the scenes meetings with Astros brass over you, who just doesn't believe it because... well, whatever your fucktard opinion over why you think Jim'd like about it is.




Well look at that.

Guess who Garner put in as a 9th inning  defensive replacement in centerfield, sliding Burke to leftfield?

Yep. It's mister "destroying the Astros with his piss poor defense" Willy T.

I don't believe in what he's saying because it doesn't make logical sense, not because I have some imaginary vendetta against Jim.




Garner brought Willy T in to run for Munson, and left him in.  He took Munson out and replaced him with Ausmus.  I thought he took Biggio out and moved Burke to 2d, but I guess that was wishful thinking.  




I thought he stayed in cause of Preston and the bat.




Yeah. Biggio didn't get replaced and botched the would-be third out.

Burke went to left because Preston turned his ankle scoring the winning run. Willy went to center.




Now I remember why I wanted Biggio out of the lineup.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #199 on: June 22, 2006, 12:25:18 pm »
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Also, I don't think Burke necessarily has to be a better defensive center fielder to replace Taveras if Taveras' problem is that his defense needs work and he has attitude problems. Rather, Burke just has to be good enough to do the job while Taveras is benched, so that Taveras can spend some time thinking about whether he wants to work on his defensive flaws or whether he thinks he still has it made.




Well said!  I can't imagine why it is hard for any logical person to fail to see exactly this point!





Are you assuming Shortstop or Adama are logical?  Maybe in their own minds.  As far as I can tell, they are entirely too impressed with their own "reasoning" and "judgement".  Last I checked, neither is a pro-player, scout, Astros official, or in anyway tied to what really matters in this matter.  

I just hope this doesn't shut off the access from those who do know people associated with the Astros.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #200 on: June 22, 2006, 12:36:18 pm »
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Also, I don't think Burke necessarily has to be a better defensive center fielder to replace Taveras if Taveras' problem is that his defense needs work and he has attitude problems. Rather, Burke just has to be good enough to do the job while Taveras is benched, so that Taveras can spend some time thinking about whether he wants to work on his defensive flaws or whether he thinks he still has it made.




Well said!  I can't imagine why it is hard for any logical person to fail to see exactly this point!




Are you assuming Shortstop or Adama are logical?  Maybe in their own minds.  As far as I can tell, they are entirely too impressed with their own "reasoning" and "judgement".  Last I checked, neither is a pro-player, scout, Astros official, or in anyway tied to what really matters in this matter.  

I just hope this doesn't shut off the access from those who do know people associated with the Astros.




It brings up the question as to why anyone visits here.  To find agreement for your opinions?  HAH! Good luck, tell it to your momma if that's all you want.  Information is what we're after.  And if you don't trust JimR to report what he hears accurately, well then you're fucked.  And not just in regards baseball neither.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #201 on: June 22, 2006, 03:46:31 pm »
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Now that's a great one !!!!!




You like that, eh?  I've got another one: You're full of shit!  Nice, eh?!?!  




Wierd how Adam vanishes and suddenly stalkerstop appears to keep up the good fight, no?




I'm sure the admins here have the IPs logged.

Now who's trolling who?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #202 on: June 22, 2006, 03:49:50 pm »
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Who cares whether the "inside source" told Jim R. anything or not. The opinion still makes absolutely no sense logically, by observation or statistically, or by Occam's Razor.

It's obvious Burke is a much better hitter, correct?

It's obvious that Burke has absolutely no experience in CF, which is a difficult, but very important position, correct?
His deffensive shortcomings have been discuseed here in detail.

Jim said very clearly that the sole reason for it was defensively.

It makes no sense.

So, what exactly is the problem with Willy T?s defense in CF, anyway?

I know most here do not believe in statistical analysis of defense and I agree that it has serious flaws. I guess the consensus here is the best way to evaluate defense is by personal observation by people that know the game. I?ve recently read here that: he takes bad angles or poor lines to the ball, turns the wrong way, misjudges fly balls and takes missteps. When did this start? I think it?s beyond dispute here that Willy T was a stellar defensive CF last season. I would assume that collectively someone from this forum has watched every inning of every Astros game this year.  Had anyone here noticed his defensive decline before Jim R.?s ?inside source? said Willy T was killing the team defensively? Had anyone commented on it?  Had any of the journalists that cover the Astros commented that we may have a problem of any kind with his defense in CF? (I know you don?t trust them, but I wonder if any of them even had raised the issue) Had Garner ever said that there was a problem with his defense? Perhaps he wouldn?t say something direct against Willy T like that to the media. Had he ever said anything more general like ?our defense in the OF is not what I would like? or ?we need to be getting to more balls in the OF? or ?we need to get better play from our OF?? Had any of the players?  I?m not aware of anything like that, but I probably don?t keep up like you guys and may have missed it.

Even though it has it?s flaws, statistical analysis of defense can tell you something or can help confirm observations. Willy Ts defensive stats are:
Range Factor (put outs + assists divided by 9 innings) = 2.5
Zone Rating (percentage of fly balls fielded within his ?defensive zone?) = .880
Fielding Percentage .981
Someone has posted that these put him in the middle of the pack of CF this season. I compared them to what he did in 2005, when he was undisputedly very good defensively and the numbers are almost exactly the same ? maybe a bit better.

Now Garner puts him in CF to close out a game. Sure it's just 1 inning, but it was the 9th with a lead (when 1-2 games at the end might mean getting to the playoffs) --- rather important.

You guys make it about Jim and his "inside source". I think the opinion is nonsense.





I'm the first person to say the Astros were looking to get Burke into the lineup day to day, and that if Willy had been hitting, Willy's defense would have looked a whole lot better.  Jim's source says it was solely defense, and I don't necessarily think that paints a very complete picture of what happened, either.  Now if that's what Adam is saying, fine.  He doesn't believe Jim's a liar, he simply doesn't believe the Astros' scout's--or possibly the Astros'--description was complete.  That's a fair argument.  Happens all the time.

Footer says that two things happened, Willy had issues on defense while Burke started hitting.  Did I see the decline in defense?  Nope.  I don't have good enough sense from day to day to really see any decline.  I see a play, it's good, I see another play, it's bad.  I'm not even a particularly good judge of good or bad. I think Biggio's defense has declined, and I think he's hurting I and I at 2d, but do I know it?  Nope.   But here's where you and Adam are a bit off, in my mind, in this discussion:  what's said was said.  It was said by Jim's friend, and Mark heard it, and it was said by Footer.  Solely defense?  Well, no, not in my mind, but that doesn't mean I can ignore the statements, either.  Footer says defense issues and Willy's failed offense.  Is Footer a good source?  Usually.  Jim's friend says defense and coaching issues.  Coaching issues could certainly include offense, and isn't necessarily solely defense, either.  Is Jim's friend a good source?  Jim thinks so, and I've got no particular reason to doubt it, even if I question the meaning of his statement.  Solely defense may be inconsistent with a lot of things, how Garner treats his players, Burke's streak,  Taveras's great defense last year, but that doesn't mean he isn't having defensive issues this year.  Defense as one issue isn't inconsistent with anything, whether the other thing is coaching issues or lack of offense or all 3.

I like numbers because they let me judge things over time that I couldn't otherwise judge, but I remember reading something by James (maybe it was James, but maybe it was Duns Scotus) about defensive numbers years ago that was so terrific:  look at the numbers.  when the great mass of the players are differentiated by a 100th of a percentage point, you know there's something wrong with the metric even without understanding the metric.  If you were using range factor to tell the difference between me, say, and Adam Everett, say, the difference would tell you something.  But even without understanding the flaws in the metrics themselves the difference between Chris Burke, with a fpct of 1.000, and Daryl Ward, with a fpct of 1.000, tells me there's something weird about the numbers.  The first 54 outfielders all have a range factor of 1.000 right now, and the difference between the first 54 and Lance Berkman (who happens to be #100) is .04.  That's just meaningless, unless it means that all major league outfielders are essentially the same (which of course is one explanation, and has some degree of truth to it).   And Range Factor is so governed by opportunity that again, it just doesn't tell you much.  Zone Factor, as I recall, was James's own statistic, and he's still trying to make it work.

In the Defensive Bible, Willy was the top rated defensive centerfielder last year, and as defensive metrics go, that's the best I know of.  He played great defensive centerfield.  I don't have that metric this year, so all I can go by is what's been said.  I may think that saying "solely" defense is FACT is whack, even if a great source like Pravata said it, but that doesn't mean defense as an issue is meaningless, either.

What do I think?  I think if Willy was hitting, he'd be our central gardner.  That's not inconsistent with what I understand Jim's friend to have said, at least as I read it:  If Willy was hitting, it's perfectly possible that the coaching issues would be largely diminished.  I don't think Burke would be in centerfield if the issue was "solely" offense, either.  Taveras is potentially too good a defensive centerfielder, and Garner is generally too patient with his players to bench Taveras because of a bad game, or a week or a month of bad games.  But not hitting by Taveras and very good defense by Burke has put Taveras on the bench.




Yeah Neil, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

I'm not trying to get into a discussion of Jim's character, or defensive statistics, I'm just saying that what he's reporting is illogical based on supporting facts.

Agreed on fielding statistics. Very limited at this stage, observational analysis is much more important IMO. I was just using the stats in conjunction with what many of us have seen.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #203 on: June 22, 2006, 03:50:46 pm »
Quote:

Neil, this is an incredible obstinate statement: "What do I think? I think if Willy was hitting, he'd be our central gardner. That's not inconsistent with what I understand Jim's friend to have said, at least as I read it: If Willy was hitting, it's perfectly possible that the coaching issues would be largely diminished." it tells me that you share one trait with adama and shortstop: baseball decisions are valid to you only if they make sense to you and are logical by your standards. that is thickheaded and approaching dumb. my friend, who troll thinks is imaginary and whose statements you reject because they make no sense to you, did not say anything anywhere near your interpretation. hitting had nothing to do with anything. it had to do with his lack of instincts in the OF and his "i have it made attitude" that is why Burke took his place on 6/3.

i may be wrong about this, but it is researchable, and there are many who post here to tell me i am wrong. i believe that on 6/3, Burke's average had fallen about 100 points since he came off the DL, and i think he was hitting around 10 points higher than Willy. the move was a demotion for Willy to try to wake him up and it was a tryout for Burke, who had played CF in the minors, and an attempt to find a spot for him. the idea that if Willy was hitting there would be no coaching issue is made up out of whole cloth to justify obstinance.

your fallacy, Neil, which others share, it that there must be a "right" or "logical" answer for every decision. that simply is not true. there are no right answers like adding columns of numbers; there are baseball reasons for decisions, and it does not matter one bit if you do not think they are logical. the fact is that manangement was dissatisfied with WT's play in CF and with his attitude toward what he needed to do. they wanted to see if Burke could handle it, but they by no means gave up on Willy. the ball was in his court. then Burke went on a torrid hitting streak. from the comments i have read from him, Willy got the wakeup call. baseball reasons do not have to be logical to you or to even make sense to you.

adama's reliance on zone rating and range factor makes him no longer worthy of serious consideration, if he ever was. for shortstop, it is all about me. he is just one more in a series of stalkers who live to discredit anything i say. how flattering.

finally, the idea that Noe or Mark or HH or pravata or any of the other regulars who sometimes agree with me do not have independent minds is repugnant. they say what they think. they disagree with me plenty, i am sure.

the guy i know needs no defense from me. his credentials as an expert might even satisfy Neil. if he tells me something, it is based on what he has seen or knows or has been told. he is more connected in more places than all but a few because he has spent a lifetime making those connections. if you folks choose to reject his information as illogical, ok. i cannot imagine a more arrogant position than Neil's last post or in the incredible posts last night. decisions baseball people make are not about you or what you think. they do not have to make sense to you. all they have to do is to make sense to the person making them.

Willy got benched because THE BALLCLUB, not a group of internet posters, was dissatisfied with his play in CF and with his attitude toward working to improve. if he were hitting .305, they still would have been dissatisfied. they gave him a wakeup call, and Burke ran with his chance.

believe it or not. it does not matter one way or the other. folks who cannot separate offense from defense never will get it. fantasy teams are where they should be.





You don't think there should be a logical reason for moves made by the club?

No? in Austin

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Re: Willy
« Reply #204 on: June 22, 2006, 03:53:46 pm »
Quote:

You don't think there should be a logical reason for moves made by the club?




Logical *baseball* moves are not logical *meta-baseball" moves.  Two different things.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #205 on: June 22, 2006, 03:54:50 pm »
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Also, I don't think Burke necessarily has to be a better defensive center fielder to replace Taveras if Taveras' problem is that his defense needs work and he has attitude problems. Rather, Burke just has to be good enough to do the job while Taveras is benched, so that Taveras can spend some time thinking about whether he wants to work on his defensive flaws or whether he thinks he still has it made.




Well said!  I can't imagine why it is hard for any logical person to fail to see exactly this point!




Are you assuming Shortstop or Adama are logical?  Maybe in their own minds.  As far as I can tell, they are entirely too impressed with their own "reasoning" and "judgement".  Last I checked, neither is a pro-player, scout, Astros official, or in anyway tied to what really matters in this matter.  

I just hope this doesn't shut off the access from those who do know people associated with the Astros.




It brings up the question as to why anyone visits here.  To find agreement for your opinions?  HAH! Good luck, tell it to your momma if that's all you want.  Information is what we're after.  And if you don't trust JimR to report what he hears accurately, well then you're fucked.  And not just in regards baseball neither.




I come her to worship Jim and the assortment of "popes".
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Re: Willy
« Reply #206 on: June 22, 2006, 03:57:13 pm »
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Yeah Neil, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.




That's not true.

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I'm not trying to get into a discussion of Jim's character,




Yes you were...

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or defensive statistics,




You brought them to the table, no one else did....

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I'm just saying that what he's reporting is illogical based on supporting facts.




It is not illogical baseball, it is illogical meta-baseball... something you're incapable of handling in a discussion.  Go away.

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Agreed on fielding statistics. Very limited at this stage, observational analysis is much more important IMO. I was just using the stats in conjunction with what many of us have seen.




"WE" don't matter.  Jim was talking about the Astros, not us.  They made the decision to bench Willy, not us.  They have their reason, something you cannot understand.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #207 on: June 22, 2006, 03:58:52 pm »
I like a good stat as much as the next guy, but I think you're making two erroneous assumptions here.

First, I don't think it's necessarily illogical, offense aside, to start Burke ahead of Taveras if, as I stated earlier, that's the way to give Taveras some time in the doghouse to think about whether he wants to work to improve his game or whether he wants to coast. It sounds as if you're starting from the assumption that the only logical way Burke starts ahead of Taveras is if Burke's better offensively. I don't think that must be the case.

Second, just because you see something as logical doesn't mean that the Astros can't see the same thing differently and are acting for different reasons than you would. I don't tend to buy into the notion that if professional baseball men do something, it's prima facie correct, but I at least concede that they have their reasons for doing things that differ from what I can discern from watcing the game from the stands or from my living room.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #208 on: June 22, 2006, 04:06:11 pm »
By the way, if you're going to cite range factor and zone rating as support for your argument about Taveras' defense, it's worth noting that in MLB, Taveras was 13th in range factor and 17th in zone rating in 2005 and is 11th in range factor and 16th in zone rating in 2006. Those are middle-of-the-pack numbers, not exactly standouts. Wouldn't you expect someone with Taveras' speed to rank higher? Isn't that indicative that maybe Taveras does need to work on some things? Or it could also mean that Taveras is actually a lot better, and range factor and zone rating aren't getting it right.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #209 on: June 22, 2006, 04:07:11 pm »
Quote:

It sounds as if you're starting from the assumption that the only logical way Burke starts ahead of Taveras is if Burke's better offensively.




The other assumption made is that because defense was cited as primary, it must mean that the Astros illogically reached a conclusion that is not true.  Our wealth of stats and observation only touches a finite point and in no way makes something a *fact* (as has been stated before as the primary reason the source is wrong... *facts* belittle his view or what he told Jim).  So we have to elevate our own resources of stats and observation skills to very high levels in order for this to be true and gain the coveted status of *fact* for sure.

All the while, the Astros do what they do with Willy and they have their reasons.  And it is about defense, as much as we would hate it to be true (because *OUR* facts are so holy!).  So we arrogantly speak out and claim that the source is wrong, and if the Astros did bench Willy because of defense, they're wrong too!  So we rather state that *offense*, a low OBP is the answer... yes, that is the ANSWER... the holy grail, we are so great in our understanding of what is going on.  Our *facts* have been redeemed, hallelujah!

It is the height of arrogrance that really irks me most.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #210 on: June 22, 2006, 04:07:51 pm »
you see, Arky, you are doing it too. there is no CORRECT, prima facie or otherwise, to a baseball decision. the person who makes it has a baseball reason for it, and it does not have to be logical to anyone else.

adama, you are an idiot. totally an idiot. go post on some fantasy site. that is what you are suited for, not here.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #211 on: June 22, 2006, 04:16:52 pm »
Quote:

you see, Arky, you are doing it too. there is no CORRECT, prima facie or otherwise, to a baseball decision. the person who makes it has a baseball reason for it, and it does not have to be logical to anyone else.

adama, you are an idioot. totally an idiot. go post on some fantasy site. that is what you are suited for, not here.





'Course here's a quote from Garner, who I guess made the decision:

"It creates a little bit problem if Willy starts swinging the bat," Garner said. "And he has started to. In the last couple times Willy has had pinch-hit appearances, he's gotten hits. Willy is going to hit and he's going to play good. Willy's not playing now doesn't have anything to do with what Willy has done. He's struggled a little bit at the plate and we've been trying to find something to make us click. We tried Chris out there and he's been playing good since it happened."

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Re: Willy
« Reply #212 on: June 22, 2006, 04:18:56 pm »
Quote:

You don't think there should be a logical reason for moves made by the club?




You don't think it's logical, therefore it's not?

You bitch about this site, yet you're still here.  Nobody has forced you to stay here- if you don't like it leave.  I'm sure Charlie Pallilo will recognize your baseball knowledge- give him call.  You two can whine about all of those illogical decision makers the Astros have calling the shots.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #213 on: June 22, 2006, 04:22:46 pm »
At least Palillo admits that, while he disagrees, it doesn't mean squat, and the Astros' track record supports them.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #214 on: June 22, 2006, 04:24:40 pm »
Quote:


You don't think there should be a logical reason for moves made by the club?





Every move the club makes has a logical reason.  Whether you understand it is a different matter entirely.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #215 on: June 22, 2006, 04:27:21 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

you see, Arky, you are doing it too. there is no CORRECT, prima facie or otherwise, to a baseball decision. the person who makes it has a baseball reason for it, and it does not have to be logical to anyone else.

adama, you are an idioot. totally an idiot. go post on some fantasy site. that is what you are suited for, not here.





'Course here's a quote from Garner, who I guess made the decision:

"It creates a little bit problem if Willy starts swinging the bat," Garner said. "And he has started to. In the last couple times Willy has had pinch-hit appearances, he's gotten hits. Willy is going to hit and he's going to play good. Willy's not playing now doesn't have anything to do with what Willy has done. He's struggled a little bit at the plate and we've been trying to find something to make us click. We tried Chris out there and he's been playing good since it happened."

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And the other:

"Garner also cleared the air about a misconception that Taveras has done something specific that caused him to fall out of favor with the manager.

"Willy's a good kid," Garner said. "He continues to work. Clearly, he wants to play. The only thing you can do when you're like this is do what Chris did -- make sure you are prepared. You get an opening, make the best of it.

"It's not that Willy is out of favor. It's just the combination is working this way at this moment. We've started to play a little better, and Chris has been a part of that. Willy was sliding a little bit. That's really all there is to it. There's nothing else to it than that.""

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Re: Willy
« Reply #216 on: June 22, 2006, 04:28:45 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

you see, Arky, you are doing it too. there is no CORRECT, prima facie or otherwise, to a baseball decision. the person who makes it has a baseball reason for it, and it does not have to be logical to anyone else.

adama, you are an idioot. totally an idiot. go post on some fantasy site. that is what you are suited for, not here.





'Course here's a quote from Garner, who I guess made the decision:

"It creates a little bit problem if Willy starts swinging the bat," Garner said. "And he has started to. In the last couple times Willy has had pinch-hit appearances, he's gotten hits. Willy is going to hit and he's going to play good. Willy's not playing now doesn't have anything to do with what Willy has done. He's struggled a little bit at the plate and we've been trying to find something to make us click. We tried Chris out there and he's been playing good since it happened."

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I would expect Garner to say that.  No need to throw Willy under the bus in public.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #217 on: June 22, 2006, 04:30:13 pm »
Quote:

you see, Arky, you are doing it too. there is no CORRECT, prima facie or otherwise, to a baseball decision. the person who makes it has a baseball reason for it, and it does not have to be logical to anyone else.




Then replace "correct" with "good" or "prudent" or "advisable" or "desirable." That's not the point of what I'm saying, Jim.

The point of what I'm saying is essentially what I think you're saying, which is that the team has its reasons for doing things, and my value judgments have no bearing on whether the team considers its reasons justified.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #218 on: June 22, 2006, 04:30:40 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

you see, Arky, you are doing it too. there is no CORRECT, prima facie or otherwise, to a baseball decision. the person who makes it has a baseball reason for it, and it does not have to be logical to anyone else.

adama, you are an idioot. totally an idiot. go post on some fantasy site. that is what you are suited for, not here.





'Course here's a quote from Garner, who I guess made the decision:

"It creates a little bit problem if Willy starts swinging the bat," Garner said. "And he has started to. In the last couple times Willy has had pinch-hit appearances, he's gotten hits. Willy is going to hit and he's going to play good. Willy's not playing now doesn't have anything to do with what Willy has done. He's struggled a little bit at the plate and we've been trying to find something to make us click. We tried Chris out there and he's been playing good since it happened."

The Link




I would expect Garner to say that.  No need to throw Willy under the bus in public.




Me to.  But if the problem was solely defense, he could have said that just as easily, and also said that we wanted to give Willy some time to work on some issues.  I don't think there's any sense that Willy is done, though.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #219 on: June 22, 2006, 04:31:31 pm »
Quote:

 I don't think there's any sense that Willy is done, though.





And I don't think anyone, especially Jim, has implied that he is.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #220 on: June 22, 2006, 04:31:41 pm »
Quote:

Every move the club makes has a logical reason.  Whether you understand it is a different matter entirely.




Or at least has a reason that the club believes is justified.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #221 on: June 22, 2006, 04:33:33 pm »
Quote:

you see, Arky, you are doing it too. there is no CORRECT, prima facie or otherwise, to a baseball decision. the person who makes it has a baseball reason for it, and it does not have to be logical to anyone else.

adama, you are an idioot. totally an idiot. go post on some fantasy site. that is what you are suited for, not here.





Explain why you think I'm an idioot [sic].

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Re: Willy
« Reply #222 on: June 22, 2006, 04:34:21 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Every move the club makes has a logical reason.  Whether you understand it is a different matter entirely.




Or at least has a reason that the club believes is justified.





Right, however you want to say it.  It's not about splitting hairs as to the definition of the word "logical".  The point is, the club does things for a reason, and just because Joe Fan, armed with only cocktail party knowlege of othe subject, doesn't understand it, doesn't make the decision invalid.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #223 on: June 22, 2006, 04:35:20 pm »
Quote:

Right, however you want to say it.  It's not about splitting hairs as to the definition of the word "logical".  The point is, the club does things for a reason, and just because Joe Fan, armed with only cocktail party knowlege of othe subject, doesn't understand it, doesn't make the decision invalid.




Exactly. Sorry to get nit-picky.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #224 on: June 22, 2006, 04:35:29 pm »
Quote:

At least Palillo admits that, while he disagrees, it doesn't mean squat, and the Astros' track record supports them.




Recently, as he was ranting about how the Astros minor league never produces hitters, he says, "the last decent hitter they produced was Ensberg".  Ensberg was 4th in 2005 MVP voting. Ensberg has only been a regular since 2003.  Before that the Astros minors produced Berkman, who has been a regular since 2000. Palillo wants an Ensberg or a Berkman every other season?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #225 on: June 22, 2006, 04:36:20 pm »
Quote:


Explain why you think I'm an idioot [sic].





Not to speak for Jim, but I'd say his perception comes from the fact that you are either ignorantly unaware or stubbornly unwilling to admit that the club has reasons for making decisions that are not entirely based on what you personally think is the best baseball move statistically.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #226 on: June 22, 2006, 04:37:57 pm »
Neil, do you really think Garner will say to the media: "Taveras shows no instincts as an outfielder. his defense is hurting the ballclub, and he refuses to try to get better. it appears to me that he thinks he has it made."

do you? do you think it is possible that they say things behind closed doors that they will not say to the media or to Footer?

you are way beyond maddening. you say privately to me that you learn a lot here, but you demonstrate no evidence that you have learned anything. sometime in the last year, you apparently decided that being a contrarian was what you should be. go for it.

believe whatever you believe to be logical. for my part, i am going to share what i hear by private email that does not include you. i doubt you'll miss them at all. i am tired of this shit. i thought it was ok to post this as long as i protected my source, and the "you're making this up" or the "that's not logical" responses have gone on for two fucking days.

if this had been some original idea of mine, i could understand the attacks. after all, what do i know? i know i wish i had never posted anything. then you all could have said "offense" and nodded knowingly.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #227 on: June 22, 2006, 04:38:15 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


You don't think there should be a logical reason for moves made by the club?





Every move the club makes has a logical reason.  Whether you understand it is a different matter entirely.





Of course there is a logical reason for benching Willy. It doesn't make sense that Willy was benched soley for defense. I'm not disputing that the club knows what it's doing, I'm disputing that it was a decision made only for defensive reasons.

RTFT

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Re: Willy
« Reply #228 on: June 22, 2006, 04:41:16 pm »
Quote:


Of course there is a logical reason for benching Willy. It doesn't make sense that Willy was benched soley for defense. I'm not disputing that the club knows what it's doing, I'm disputing that it was a decision made only for defensive reasons.





No, you're disputing that Jim has a source tnd that he accurately relayed what his source told him.  Your whole existence in this thread has not been to question the Astros motives for benching Taveras, but rather to accuse Jim of making shit up.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #229 on: June 22, 2006, 04:41:22 pm »
Quote:

Neil, do you really think Garner will say to the media: "Taveras shows no instincts as an outfielder. his defense is hurting the ballclub, and he refuses to try to get better. it appears to me that he thinks he has it made."

do you? do you think it is possible that they say things behind closed doors that they will not say to the media or to Footer?

you are way beyond maddening. you say privately to me that you learn a lot here, but you demonstrate no evidence that you have learned anything. sometime in the last year, you apparently decided that being a contrarian was what you should be. go for it.

believe whatever you believe to be logical. for my part, i am going to share what i hear by private email that does not include you. i doubt you'll miss them at all. i am tired of this shit. i thought it was ok to post this as long as i protected my source, and the "you're making this up" or the "that's not logical" responses have gone on for two fucking days.

if this had been some original idea of mine, i could understand the attacks. after all, what do i know? i know i wish i had never posted anything. then you all could have said "offense" and nodded knowingly.





Nobody said you made it up. Maybe what you heard isn't an accurate or complete reflection of the situation? Is that in the realm of possibility?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #230 on: June 22, 2006, 04:45:29 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


Of course there is a logical reason for benching Willy. It doesn't make sense that Willy was benched soley for defense. I'm not disputing that the club knows what it's doing, I'm disputing that it was a decision made only for defensive reasons.





No, you're disputing that Jim has a source tnd that he accurately relayed what his source told him.  Your whole existence in this thread has not been to question the Astros motives for benching Taveras, but rather to accuse Jim of making shit up.





Incorrect.

I'm simply stating that what Jim is relating to us makes no sense whatsoever. It's not an indictment against Jim at all. Maybe it's interpreted that way because whatever he posts is treated as sacrosanct, thus questioning the post becomes attacking the poster.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #231 on: June 22, 2006, 04:46:52 pm »
Quote:


Nobody said you made it up. Maybe what you heard isn't an accurate or complete reflection of the situation? Is that in the realm of possibility?





You said Jim was talking out his ass. And knowing who the source is, no.  The reality of the situation is the source is getting the real story, and the quotes people are pulling up from Footer or Garner (or Footer quoting Garner) are the public face of the problem.

Here's something else from a source...Taveras (along with a couple of others) can be acquired in a trade for a reliever.  It wouldn't take long.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #232 on: June 22, 2006, 04:46:59 pm »
well, actually what you said was that "Jim is talking out of his ass."

fuck off, troll. you are not worth either a serious discussion or my time. believe what you choose to believe.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #233 on: June 22, 2006, 04:48:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

At least Palillo admits that, while he disagrees, it doesn't mean squat, and the Astros' track record supports them.




Recently, as he was ranting about how the Astros minor league never produces hitters, he says, "the last decent hitter they produced was Ensberg".  Ensberg was 4th in 2005 MVP voting. Ensberg has only been a regular since 2003.  Before that the Astros minors produced Berkman, who has been a regular since 2000. Palillo wants an Ensberg or a Berkman every other season?





No, Palillo wants people to call into his show and complain, and harping on the minor-league promotions just happens to be one of his windmills of choice.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #234 on: June 22, 2006, 04:48:43 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


Explain why you think I'm an idioot [sic].





Not to speak for Jim, but I'd say his perception comes from the fact that you are either ignorantly unaware or stubbornly unwilling to admit that the club has reasons for making decisions that are not entirely based on what you personally think is the best baseball move statistically.





What?

The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #235 on: June 22, 2006, 04:49:18 pm »
careful, Andy, that may not pass the "logical" test. if it does not make sense to your listeners, then it cannot be true.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #236 on: June 22, 2006, 04:50:53 pm »
Quote:

Here's something else from a source...Taveras (along with a couple of others) can be acquired in a trade for a reliever.  It wouldn't take long.




Ahem... let me take a shot at this...

"That's ridiculous.  No reliever can have the VORP of a position playerr, especially one who is as valuable as Taveras.  The fact that Garner put Willy in CF instead of Springer for the 9th is further evidence of this.

This 'source' of yours doesn't know shit from shinola."
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Re: Willy
« Reply #237 on: June 22, 2006, 04:50:55 pm »
Quote:

well, actually what you said was that "Jim is talking out of his ass."

fuck off, troll. you are not worth either a serious discussion or my time. believe what you choose to believe.





It's okay, Jim. I understand that this internet persona you've created helps bleed off your personal stress. Call some more people trolls, it's worth it.

Continue to post that Burke is in there because of defense, as he continues to blister the ball.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #238 on: June 22, 2006, 04:51:38 pm »
you are a fucking idiot.

and this persona is? and my "personal stress" is?

you are an ankle-biting troll who is here only to agitate.

no one said Burke got the job because of his defense, FI. Taveras lost the job because of his.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #239 on: June 22, 2006, 04:52:08 pm »
Quote:



The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





What if 1) was worded this way... "Willy has better skills to play centerfield than Burke"?

Because that is far closer to the truth of the situation?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #240 on: June 22, 2006, 04:52:09 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Of course there is a logical reason for benching Willy. It doesn't make sense that Willy was benched soley for defense. I'm not disputing that the club knows what it's doing, I'm disputing that it was a decision made only for defensive reasons.





No, you're disputing that Jim has a source tnd that he accurately relayed what his source told him.  Your whole existence in this thread has not been to question the Astros motives for benching Taveras, but rather to accuse Jim of making shit up.




Incorrect.




No, I'd say it's a correct and fair assessment of your petty bullshit.

Quote:


I'm simply stating that what Jim is relating to us makes no sense whatsoever. It's not an indictment against Jim at all. Maybe it's interpreted that way because whatever he posts is treated as sacrosanct, thus questioning the post becomes attacking the poster.





It makes no sense to you.  Don't speak for me.  Jim's statements are not sacrosanct.  Please, for fuck's sake, understand this is not "Jim's statement".  He's sharing his associates comments with the rest of us.  You, by all rights, are nothing more than an unworthy, argumententive prick.  

Learn to recognize the difference between stats and their value to real life baseball evaluation and versus roto/fantasy baseball.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #241 on: June 22, 2006, 04:53:01 pm »
Hey fucker go away and thanks for pissing Jim off so that he no longer shares his insider information.  Fucking pisses me off.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #242 on: June 22, 2006, 04:55:02 pm »
Quote:


Incorrect.

I'm simply stating that what Jim is relating to us makes no sense whatsoever. It's not an indictment against Jim at all. Maybe it's interpreted that way because whatever he posts is treated as sacrosanct, thus questioning the post becomes attacking the poster.






Bullshit.  You're crawfishing now because perhaps you're starting to realize that Jim may know something you don't.  Your entire point here was that Jim was full of shit, he has to be because the reasons he cited from his sources didn't make sense to you personally.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #243 on: June 22, 2006, 04:55:08 pm »
Quote:

What?

The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





this is what passes for "logic" nowadays?

I say we take off and nuke the entire thread from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #244 on: June 22, 2006, 04:57:03 pm »
Quote:

[
That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.






To you who doesn't understand the situation.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #245 on: June 22, 2006, 04:57:40 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

What?

The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





this is what passes for "logic" nowadays?

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.





While I understand the reference, I'd stick to nuking the thread.  There have been a bout 2 or 3 useful pieces of information in about 200 posts.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #246 on: June 22, 2006, 04:58:30 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





What if 1) was worded this way... "Willy has better skills to play centerfield than Burke"?

Because that is far closer to the truth of the situation?




Yeah, I gotcha. I just don't see the evidence supporting that Willy had regressed beneath Burke's ability out there.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #247 on: June 22, 2006, 04:59:31 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





What if 1) was worded this way... "Willy has better skills to play centerfield than Burke"?

Because that is far closer to the truth of the situation?




Yeah, I gotcha. I just don't see the evidence supporting that Willy had regressed beneath Burke's ability out there.




Did anyone fucking state or imply that?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #248 on: June 22, 2006, 05:00:00 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





What if 1) was worded this way... "Willy has better skills to play centerfield than Burke"?

Because that is far closer to the truth of the situation?




Yeah, I gotcha. I just don't see the evidence supporting that Willy had regressed beneath Burke's ability out there.




My take is that it's kind of a "We know what we're getting with Burke, and it's pretty much a crap shoot with Taveras."

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Re: Willy
« Reply #249 on: June 22, 2006, 05:01:03 pm »
Quote:

I just don't see the evidence supporting that Willy had regressed beneath Burke's ability out there.





Of course you don't.  There's a lot of things you don't see because you're not out there on the field every night, you don't see Willy in batting practice every day, you're not in the clubhouse and in the manager's office.  But does that stop you from saying that people who are don't know what the fuck they're doing?  Of course not.  Your arrogance far exceeds your ignorance.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #250 on: June 22, 2006, 05:01:17 pm »
Quote:

I'm simply stating that what Jim is relating to us makes no sense whatsoever. It's not an indictment against Jim at all. Maybe it's interpreted that way because whatever he posts is treated as sacrosanct, thus questioning the post becomes attacking the poster.




I've made repeated posts specifically disputing your argument that the information relayed by Jim makes no sense. I haven't cussed at you, and I haven't called you names. I've addressed your contentions on the merits.

But the only people you seem to be responding to are the ones that you appear to interpret as persecuting you. Which starts to make me think you're here just to be provocative, i.e., trolling.

Which Spack isn't likely to put up with much longer.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #251 on: June 22, 2006, 05:01:47 pm »
Spack where the hell are you?  Needed you about 13 freaking pages ago.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #252 on: June 22, 2006, 05:02:00 pm »
do you see how he has changed it now? he is comparing Taveras' defense to Burke's defense, which never was an issue. Taveras lost the job because of HIS defense. Burke got a tryout there because he has CF skills and played it in RR as an experiment. then, Burke started hitting the shit out of the ball.

no one--not i or my friend--said that Burke's defense in CF was better than Taveras' defense. on that day they did not know how Burke would do. they did know how WT had been doing, and it had become unacceptable.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #253 on: June 22, 2006, 05:03:47 pm »
Quote:

While I understand the reference, I'd stick to nuking the thread.  There have been a bout 2 or 3 useful pieces of information in about 200 posts.




yeah just after i posted i realized some people might miss the reference and that they might think i was referring to the actual website.  and not to a gigantic nuclear atmosphere processor, and relating facilities.

i guess i didnt get the edit in there quite fast enough.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #254 on: June 22, 2006, 05:04:11 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





What if 1) was worded this way... "Willy has better skills to play centerfield than Burke"?

Because that is far closer to the truth of the situation?




Yeah, I gotcha. I just don't see the evidence supporting that Willy had regressed beneath Burke's ability out there.




Never stated nor implied.  What was stated was that Willy's defense had regressed, and was "killing the team".  I do see evidence of that.

That is a separate issue from anything involving Chris Burke.

Once the decision to bench Taveras was made - who do you think was the most logical candidate to play CF on a regular basis?
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Re: Willy
« Reply #255 on: June 22, 2006, 05:05:16 pm »
Quote:

I like a good stat as much as the next guy, but I think you're making two erroneous assumptions here.

First, I don't think it's necessarily illogical, offense aside, to start Burke ahead of Taveras if, as I stated earlier, that's the way to give Taveras some time in the doghouse to think about whether he wants to work to improve his game or whether he wants to coast. It sounds as if you're starting from the assumption that the only logical way Burke starts ahead of Taveras is if Burke's better offensively. I don't think that must be the case.

Second, just because you see something as logical doesn't mean that the Astros can't see the same thing differently and are acting for different reasons than you would. I don't tend to buy into the notion that if professional baseball men do something, it's prima facie correct, but I at least concede that they have their reasons for doing things that differ from what I can discern from watcing the game from the stands or from my living room.





Well said.

I'm not saying that offense is the only reason Burke is starting, I'm simply stating that defense cannot be the only reason Willy is sitting. That's the extent.

Granted the Astros know what they are doing, and I totally agree with Burke starting. The lineup was suffering with Willy's poor production hitting in front of Berkman.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #256 on: June 22, 2006, 05:05:58 pm »
Quote:

Continue to post that Burke is in there because of defense...




This really bad habit of lying is unbecoming.  Jim never said that, you continue to claim you never said half the stuff you did.

I'm calling you a liar, plain and simple.

And if that is all you're going to bring to this forum, a bunch of lies to keep baiting regulars into more discussions, then you're being warned right here, right now... it ends today.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #257 on: June 22, 2006, 05:07:16 pm »
Quote:

Neil, do you really think Garner will say to the media: "Taveras shows no instincts as an outfielder. his defense is hurting the ballclub, and he refuses to try to get better. it appears to me that he thinks he has it made."

do you? do you think it is possible that they say things behind closed doors that they will not say to the media or to Footer?

you are way beyond maddening. you say privately to me that you learn a lot here, but you demonstrate no evidence that you have learned anything. sometime in the last year, you apparently decided that being a contrarian was what you should be. go for it.

believe whatever you believe to be logical. for my part, i am going to share what i hear by private email that does not include you. i doubt you'll miss them at all. i am tired of this shit. i thought it was ok to post this as long as i protected my source, and the "you're making this up" or the "that's not logical" responses have gone on for two fucking days.

if this had been some original idea of mine, i could understand the attacks. after all, what do i know? i know i wish i had never posted anything. then you all could have said "offense" and nodded knowingly.





Now Jim, I mentioned a whole lot earlier that the attitude quote was out there, and it 's easy to deal with as a public statement I suggested the same thing pages and pages ago, but didn't drag out the quote.  You're a big guy, and can swat my statements in exactly the way you did:  public face to the media.  If I'm maddening to you sorry, but at least note that the Garner's public statements about Willy may be creating some of the disagreement you're seeing here.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #258 on: June 22, 2006, 05:07:23 pm »
Quote:

I'm simply stating that defense cannot be the only reason Willy is sitting. That's the extent.  




Exactly.  This is the evidence that you don't know what the hell you're tallking about.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #259 on: June 22, 2006, 05:07:33 pm »
Quote:

By the way, if you're going to cite range factor and zone rating as support for your argument about Taveras' defense, it's worth noting that in MLB, Taveras was 13th in range factor and 17th in zone rating in 2005 and is 11th in range factor and 16th in zone rating in 2006. Those are middle-of-the-pack numbers, not exactly standouts. Wouldn't you expect someone with Taveras' speed to rank higher? Isn't that indicative that maybe Taveras does need to work on some things? Or it could also mean that Taveras is actually a lot better, and range factor and zone rating aren't getting it right.




Mainly just using statistics because they support what I'm seeing, not as a basis for the argument.

Granted his numbers are around average.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #260 on: June 22, 2006, 05:07:59 pm »
Quote:

Yeah, I gotcha. I just don't see the evidence supporting that Willy had regressed beneath Burke's ability out there.




But that's not what's necessary to establish that the information relayed by Jim is illogical. Let's try this again:

Quote:

I don't think it's necessarily illogical, offense aside, to start Burke ahead of Taveras if, as I stated earlier, that's the way to give Taveras some time in the doghouse to think about whether he wants to work to improve his game or whether he wants to coast. It sounds as if you're starting from the assumption that the only logical way Burke starts ahead of Taveras is if Burke's better offensively. I don't think that must be the case.




What part of this can you dispute?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #261 on: June 22, 2006, 05:08:57 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Continue to post that Burke is in there because of defense...




This really bad habit of lying is unbecoming.  Jim never said that, you continue to claim you never said half the stuff you did.

I'm calling you a liar, plain and simple.

And if that is all you're going to bring to this forum, a bunch of lies to keep baiting regulars into more discussions, then you're being warned right here, right now... it ends today.





I got called a liar in here once.  Pissed me off.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #262 on: June 22, 2006, 05:09:05 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





What if 1) was worded this way... "Willy has better skills to play centerfield than Burke"?

Because that is far closer to the truth of the situation?




Yeah, I gotcha. I just don't see the evidence supporting that Willy had regressed beneath Burke's ability out there.




Never stated nor implied.  What was stated was that Willy's defense had regressed, and was "killing the team".  I do see evidence of that.

That is a separate issue from anything involving Chris Burke.

Once the decision to bench Taveras was made - who do you think was the most logical candidate to play CF on a regular basis?




Granted. But if they decided to make a change because his defense was killing the team, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody with better defense? If the replacement player had only as good or worse defensive skills, wouldn't the replacement be counterproductive?

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Re: Willy
« Reply #263 on: June 22, 2006, 05:09:46 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



The argument isn't based on statistics. The statistics fall in line with the argument.

1) Willy is better than Burke defensively
2) Burke is better than Willy offensively
3) Willy has attitude problems, Burke is a hard worker

That Willy was benched for Burke  solely for defense, is illogical.





What if 1) was worded this way... "Willy has better skills to play centerfield than Burke"?

Because that is far closer to the truth of the situation?




Yeah, I gotcha. I just don't see the evidence supporting that Willy had regressed beneath Burke's ability out there.




Never stated nor implied.  What was stated was that Willy's defense had regressed, and was "killing the team".  I do see evidence of that.

That is a separate issue from anything involving Chris Burke.

Once the decision to bench Taveras was made - who do you think was the most logical candidate to play CF on a regular basis?




Granted. But if they decided to make a change because his defense was killing the team, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody with better defense? If the replacement player had only as good or worse defensive skills, wouldn't the replacement be counterproductive?




No, because Chris Burke was who they had.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #264 on: June 22, 2006, 05:11:03 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

By the way, if you're going to cite range factor and zone rating as support for your argument about Taveras' defense, it's worth noting that in MLB, Taveras was 13th in range factor and 17th in zone rating in 2005 and is 11th in range factor and 16th in zone rating in 2006. Those are middle-of-the-pack numbers, not exactly standouts. Wouldn't you expect someone with Taveras' speed to rank higher? Isn't that indicative that maybe Taveras does need to work on some things? Or it could also mean that Taveras is actually a lot better, and range factor and zone rating aren't getting it right.




Mainly just using statistics because they support what I'm seeing, not as a basis for the argument.

Granted his numbers are around average.





Let's assume for the sake of argument that range factor and zone rating tell us something -- you're not going to see a lot of people raise their hands here to agree with that, but let's just assume it anyway -- the fact that those statistics suggest that Taveras is an average center fielder does not seem to me to support the argument that it's illogical that Taveras' defense might have gotten him benched.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #265 on: June 22, 2006, 05:11:06 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Of course there is a logical reason for benching Willy. It doesn't make sense that Willy was benched soley for defense. I'm not disputing that the club knows what it's doing, I'm disputing that it was a decision made only for defensive reasons.





No, you're disputing that Jim has a source tnd that he accurately relayed what his source told him.  Your whole existence in this thread has not been to question the Astros motives for benching Taveras, but rather to accuse Jim of making shit up.




Incorrect.




No, I'd say it's a correct and fair assessment of your petty bullshit.

Quote:


I'm simply stating that what Jim is relating to us makes no sense whatsoever. It's not an indictment against Jim at all. Maybe it's interpreted that way because whatever he posts is treated as sacrosanct, thus questioning the post becomes attacking the poster.





It makes no sense to you.  Don't speak for me.  Jim's statements are not sacrosanct.  Please, for fuck's sake, understand this is not "Jim's statement".  He's sharing his associates comments with the rest of us.  You, by all rights, are nothing more than an unworthy, argumententive prick.  

Learn to recognize the difference between stats and their value to real life baseball evaluation and versus roto/fantasy baseball.




Here's a couple ways that people follow the Astros, one way is that they want information/understanding of what the Astros do.  JimR says he has a source with the Astros who says Taveras has a problem with D/attitude.  The response from those who follow the Astros is, "let me think of examples of Taveras' defense to understand why they think that".  

The response from people who think they are smarter than the Astros is, "No, Taveras is a good defender, it's his hitting, and here are my statistics to prove it".  What these people don't understand is that their point of view is irrelevant to those of us who are following the Astros.

This has nothing to do with whether the Astros are right or wrong, that's another discussion one step removed from the Astros.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #266 on: June 22, 2006, 05:11:26 pm »
Quote:


Granted. But if they decided to make a change because his defense was killing the team, wouldn't it make sense to replace him with somebody with better defense? If the replacement player had only as good or worse defensive skills, wouldn't the replacement be counterproductive?





Again, you continue to miss the point.  This is NOT about Burke's defense!  The point was not to get Burke's or anyone else's defense into the lineup.  It was to light a fire under Willy Taveras's ass for the long term.  You seem completely incapable of understanding this.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #267 on: June 22, 2006, 05:12:23 pm »
Quote:

Mainly just using statistics because they support what I'm seeing, not as a basis for the argument.




that was something you probably should have kept to yourself.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #268 on: June 22, 2006, 05:13:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Mainly just using statistics because they support what I'm seeing, not as a basis for the argument.




that was something you probably should have kept to yourself.





Yep.  Let's make our case then go out and try to find some stats that back it up.  It's obvious who is and who isn't a scientist around here.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #269 on: June 22, 2006, 05:15:04 pm »
Quote:

Well said.

I'm not saying that offense is the only reason Burke is starting, I'm simply stating that defense cannot be the only reason Willy is sitting. That's the extent.

Granted the Astros know what they are doing, and I totally agree with Burke starting. The lineup was suffering with Willy's poor production hitting in front of Berkman.





But the "source" is saying that defense is the big thing, which is pretty interesting to know, and I hope Jim doesn't stop passing that kind of information along. There are always things going on behind the scenes that fans aren't privy to. Apparently this is one of them. I don't find it nearly as implausible as you apparently do.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #270 on: June 22, 2006, 05:16:14 pm »
Quote:

I'm simply stating that defense cannot be the only reason Willy is sitting.




Why?  Because Jim said so or relayed what a source told him?  That is the extent of your counter-argument.  Willy, on his own merit, lost his starting job in center when he was told his defense.... *HIS* defense needed to improve and he needed to work on certain things... and he didn't.

No one told him that Chris Burke plays better defense than him, so he's sitting.

No one told him he is a bad defensive player.

No one told him he is the offensive black hole on the team, no more than Everett or Ausmus.

No one told Willy he's a bad guy.

No one wants Willy to fail or thinks he hasn't recieved the message loud and clear and is not working his way back to regaining his job or a job.

All this is what you don't want to or cannot understand.  And yes, you continue to attack a regular and then anyone who appreciates and agrees with his information.  A level of arrogance and a huge amount of dishonesty so far.

And it stops today.  I personally will not allow this forum to give trolls lurking any idea that this is condoned.

IT IS NOT!

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Re: Willy
« Reply #271 on: June 22, 2006, 05:18:25 pm »
Kill it o' mighty one.  Please

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Re: Willy
« Reply #272 on: June 22, 2006, 05:18:55 pm »
Quote:

I got called a liar in here once.  Pissed me off.




That is because you're not a liar.  Adama is.  Sorry if this offends anyones sensibility, but this person did it to themself.  No argument is worth making if it means you have to resort to have no integrity or character in doing so.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #273 on: June 22, 2006, 05:19:12 pm »
Quote:

It was to light a fire under Willy Taveras's ass for the long term.




Not according to Jim's source. Allegedly it was because Willy's defense was "killing" the team.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #274 on: June 22, 2006, 05:20:31 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

It was to light a fire under Willy Taveras's ass for the long term.




Not according to Jim's source. Allegedly it was because Willy's defense was "killing" the team.





You've officially moved from being obtuse to just plain fucking stupid now.
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Re: Willy
« Reply #275 on: June 22, 2006, 05:20:47 pm »
Quote:

Let's assume for the sake of argument that range factor and zone rating tell us something -- you're not going to see a lot of people raise their hands here to agree with that, but let's just assume it anyway -- the fact that those statistics suggest that Taveras is an average center fielder does not seem to me to support the argument that it's illogical that Taveras' defense might have gotten him benched.




Absolutely right, if the replacement player's defense is better.

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Re: Willy
« Reply #276 on: June 22, 2006, 05:24:18 pm »
Quote:

Kill it o' mighty one.  Please




Spack is on his way.  Lying is very unbecoming and a warning to all trolls lurking.

Don't try this, defcon 1 is now on.  The manifesto here is taken seriously, and if some need to be made examples of to get the point across, so be it.