why was Russ Springer in the game in the 8th inning?

[toddthebod]

with a rested bullpen?

[pravata]

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with a rested bullpen?

Because they couldn't wake up Trever Miller.

[jasonact]

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with a rested bullpen?

Because they couldn't wake up Trever Miller.

No one was more rested than Springer. The Astros were down by a run. Springer seems to be as good a choice as any. Not like it made much of a difference.

[David in Jackson]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

[pravata]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

[JimR]

not a good question at all. a second-guessing question.

he entered with a deficit, not a lead, and he can get three outs as well as anyone.

[pravata]

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not a good question at all. a second-guessing question.

he entered with a deficit, not a lead, and he can get three outs as well as anyone.

In addition it was asked immediately after the game.  There was no chance that anyone involved in the situation would have given any real answer.  Just soliciting a bunch of bull from frustrated dumbasses.  Luckily only one took the bait.  Turns out, it looks like Springer asked to be put in last night, just like Wheeler wanted in on Monday night, to "shake the rust off".  If not now, when?  What Garner said about Burke applies "He's back on the team and available to play. ... He's ready and able to go."

[HurricaneDavid]

I didn't watch the game, but judging from the box score, how was that not a typical spot for Springer to come in, based on the past?

[pravata]

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I didn't watch the game, but judging from the box score, how was that not a typical spot for Springer to come in, based on the past?

Typical Springer spot.  No lead, not a Qualls or a Wheeler inning.  Although, you may draw your own conclusions as to why Gallo or Miller wasn't in for DWard.

[HurricaneDavid]

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Typical Springer spot.  No lead, not a Qualls or a Wheeler inning.

Exactly.  Qualls and Wheeler seem to come in to preserve leads, not to keep it close in case the offense can get a rally going.

[David in Jackson]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

Springer is, at best, our 4th most effective reliever and by his own admission was rusty.  If better pitchers are available, shouldn't they be used in a 1-run game in the 8th?

[toddthebod]

Exactly the point.  You have to keep the lead at 1 run.  Qualls had warmed up the inning before.  He was ready.  He hadn't pitched the night before.  And Wheeler was also warming up in the pen.  So it's hard to see why Garner opted to use Springer in this situation.  

Seems to me that unless the Astros are getting blown out or are blowing another team out, the 8th and 9th innings belong to Qualls, Wheeler, and Lidge.  And that's it.

[pravata]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

Springer is, at best, our 4th most effective reliever and by his own admission was rusty.  If better pitchers are available, shouldn't they be used in a 1-run game in the 8th?

When's the last time Wheeler, Qualls or Lidge were used when the Astros were behind?  When did the bullpen shrink to 3 pitchers?  How many hits has Springer given up in his last 6 appearances?  By his own admission, Springer needed some work.  Garner gets that, it's exactly the same reason he left instructions with Cooper to pitch Wheeler on Monday.

[pravata]

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Exactly the point.  You have to keep the lead at 1 run.  Qualls had warmed up the inning before.  He was ready.  He hadn't pitched the night before.  And Wheeler was also warming up in the pen.  So it's hard to see why Garner opted to use Springer in this situation.  

Seems to me that unless the Astros are getting blown out or are blowing another team out, the 8th and 9th innings belong to Qualls, Wheeler, and Lidge.  And that's it.

So, why, do you think, Garner didn't bring in Qualls?

[Uncle Charlie]

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with a rested bullpen?

Springer was what, 2 strikes away from preventing this entire thread?  The guy came in and got 2 quick outs.  There was no reason to believe that he couldn't get a PH out for the 3rd to close out the inning.

[pravata]

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with a rested bullpen?

Springer was what, 2 strikes away from preventing this entire thread?  The guy came in and got 2 quick outs.  There was no reason to believe that he couldn't get a PH out for the 3rd to close out the inning.

Prior to, Ward was 1-4, 2 Ks v. Springer.  No reason whatsoever to question this move.

[jasonact]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

Springer is, at best, our 4th most effective reliever and by his own admission was rusty.  If better pitchers are available, shouldn't they be used in a 1-run game in the 8th?

If either Qualls, Wheeler, or Lidge had been blowing people away this season with sub-2.00 ERA and such, that might be a question worthy of discussion. They haven't been, though, and Springer was certainly just as viable option as any one of them.

I still don't know why it even matters, though. The Astros didn't do anything against Cordero in the 9th inning anyway. Even if they don't score in the 8th, you still lose 2-1. You can second-guess all you want, but you can't convince me that Springer was a bad choice at the time.

[das]

...and, he was facing the bottom of a weak Nats lineup.  Springer was an obvious choice.  Now, after Rusty Russ gave up two 390' outs to mediocre hitters, you can question leaving him in for Ward but bringing him in overall made perfect sense.

[David in Jackson]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

Springer is, at best, our 4th most effective reliever and by his own admission was rusty.  If better pitchers are available, shouldn't they be used in a 1-run game in the 8th?

When's the last time Wheeler, Qualls or Lidge were used when the Astros were behind?  When did the bullpen shrink to 3 pitchers?  How many hits has Springer given up in his last 6 appearances?  By his own admission, Springer needed some work.  Garner gets that, it's exactly the same reason he left instructions with Cooper to pitch Wheeler on Monday.

I don't know, but that's no reason not use them in a 1-run game.  Ideally, you'd like to use Springer, Miller, etc. when the game isn't so close, IMHO

[pravata]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

Springer is, at best, our 4th most effective reliever and by his own admission was rusty.  If better pitchers are available, shouldn't they be used in a 1-run game in the 8th?

When's the last time Wheeler, Qualls or Lidge were used when the Astros were behind?  When did the bullpen shrink to 3 pitchers?  How many hits has Springer given up in his last 6 appearances?  By his own admission, Springer needed some work.  Garner gets that, it's exactly the same reason he left instructions with Cooper to pitch Wheeler on Monday.

I don't know, but that's no reason not use them in a 1-run game.  Ideally, you'd like to use Springer, Miller, etc. when the game isn't so close, IMHO

Then you're in for further disappointments, because that's not how Garner uses those pitchers.  Springer especially.

[David in Jackson]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

Springer is, at best, our 4th most effective reliever and by his own admission was rusty.  If better pitchers are available, shouldn't they be used in a 1-run game in the 8th?

When's the last time Wheeler, Qualls or Lidge were used when the Astros were behind?  When did the bullpen shrink to 3 pitchers?  How many hits has Springer given up in his last 6 appearances?  By his own admission, Springer needed some work.  Garner gets that, it's exactly the same reason he left instructions with Cooper to pitch Wheeler on Monday.

I don't know, but that's no reason not use them in a 1-run game.  Ideally, you'd like to use Springer, Miller, etc. when the game isn't so close, IMHO

Then you're in for further disappointments, because that's not how Garner uses those pitchers.  Springer especially.

You're probably right, but I'd still rather see Qualls or Wheeler in a situation like that, not Springer when rest is not an issue.

[JimR]

sure you would...because he gave up 2 runs.

[toddthebod]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

Springer is, at best, our 4th most effective reliever and by his own admission was rusty.  If better pitchers are available, shouldn't they be used in a 1-run game in the 8th?

If either Qualls, Wheeler, or Lidge had been blowing people away this season with sub-2.00 ERA and such, that might be a question worthy of discussion. They haven't been, though, and Springer was certainly just as viable option as any one of them.

I still don't know why it even matters, though. The Astros didn't do anything against Cordero in the 9th inning anyway. Even if they don't score in the 8th, you still lose 2-1. You can second-guess all you want, but you can't convince me that Springer was a bad choice at the time.

If the Astros were only down a run going into the 9th the results might have been different.  I think that players might have a different mind-set down 3 runs in the 9th as opposed to down 1 run in the 9th.  

As for Pravata's comment that we ("we" in this case meaning David and myself) are going to be for further disappointment if we only expect Qualls, Wheeler, and Lidge to pitch in the 8th and 9th innings, that might be true, but it doesn't make Garner's use of the bullpen  immune to discussion or correct.  IMHO The bullpen should shrink to a couple of players at the end of a close game.

The fact that Springer managed to get two outs doesn't make him a pitcher who should be in the game in the 8th inning only 1 run down.

[David in Jackson]

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sure you would...because he gave up 2 runs.

No, because he's not as good.

[JimR]

todd, it is not high school. the "mindset" will be no different in the 9th.

your ideas about how to use the bullpen have no basis in reality. Garner actually manages a real MLB team. watch how he does it and learn something.

[David in Jackson]

I do think that the larger question here (not Springer last night) is general bullpen usage.  Do you use one of your three better relievers even though you may be down one run?  Can you bring in your closer before the 9th inning?  What about in the 6th with the bases loaded in a tie game?  Should a team save pitchers to be used only with a lead, or to start an inning?  I think, generally, that teams are too conservative with their best relievers and may not use them when they can make the most difference.

Garner, it seems to me, isn't radically different from most other managers, though I'd like to read more about it.

[toddthebod]

Are you telling me that players don't give up in a game?  That's just bullshit.  Even the Astros give up.

And as for the use of the bullpen, I think that the pitchers in a bullpen have roles and they pitch better when they are used in their accustomed roles.  And I'm not the only person who thinks like that.  Most managers in baseball use their bullpen like that.

[JimR]

i am telling you that they do not give up. no competitor quits trying. did you ever just quit because you were behind? i sure as hell did not.

[JimR]

bullshit, David. if Springer had gotten three quick outs, you would have said nothing today.

[pravata]

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with a rested bullpen?

Good question.

Please explain how that's a "good" question.

Springer is, at best, our 4th most effective reliever and by his own admission was rusty.  If better pitchers are available, shouldn't they be used in a 1-run game in the 8th?

If either Qualls, Wheeler, or Lidge had been blowing people away this season with sub-2.00 ERA and such, that might be a question worthy of discussion. They haven't been, though, and Springer was certainly just as viable option as any one of them.

I still don't know why it even matters, though. The Astros didn't do anything against Cordero in the 9th inning anyway. Even if they don't score in the 8th, you still lose 2-1. You can second-guess all you want, but you can't convince me that Springer was a bad choice at the time.

If the Astros were only down a run going into the 9th the results might have been different.  I think that players might have a different mind-set down 3 runs in the 9th as opposed to down 1 run in the 9th.  

As for Pravata's comment that we ("we" in this case meaning David and myself) are going to be for further disappointment if we only expect Qualls, Wheeler, and Lidge to pitch in the 8th and 9th innings, that might be true, but it doesn't make Garner's use of the bullpen  immune to discussion or correct.  IMHO The bullpen should shrink to a couple of players at the end of a close game.

The fact that Springer managed to get two outs doesn't make him a pitcher who should be in the game in the 8th inning only 1 run down.

In spite of Qualls warming up in the 7th, Garner did not use him in the 8th, why not?

[pravata]

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Are you telling me that players don't give up in a game?  That's just bullshit.  Even the Astros give up.

And as for the use of the bullpen, I think that the pitchers in a bullpen have roles and they pitch better when they are used in their accustomed roles.  And I'm not the only person who thinks like that.  Most managers in baseball use their bullpen like that.

Correct, and Wheeler, Qualls, and Lidge are usually in the game when the Astros are ahead.

[pravata]

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bullshit, David. if Springer had gotten three quick outs, you would have said nothing today.

In addition, they play 162 games.

[David in Jackson]

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bullshit, David. if Springer had gotten three quick outs, you would have said nothing today.

No, it's not.

If Garner used Gallo to save a 1-run lead in the 9th and he did the job would we talk about it?  Yes, we would.  We're talking about the decision, not the result.

On the 13th, in a game against Colorado, Garner pulled Oswalt after 7 innings.  The Astros trailed 2-1.  He put in Qualls.  He didn't want to use the two pitchers has the most confidence in (Lidge and Wheeler) and he wanted to keep the game within reach.

On the 19th, against Texas, the Astros trailed 3-2 in the 7th.  Garner pulled his starter and put in Qualls.  The Astros scored 3 runs and came from behind to win.

If the Astros had a 2-1 lead in the 7th, and the Nationals had loaded the bases against Borkowski (or any other pitcher) and were sending a  lefty to the plate, should Garner use Gallo or Miller, or should he use Lidge or Wheeler or Qualls?  I don't know, but the question -- Who should he use and why? -- is what we're talking about.

[pravata]

Last night Qualls was warmed up, why didn't Garner bring him in?

[toddthebod]

Pravata.  Because he made a mistake.

[toddthebod]

Springer hasn't come into the game in a late inning situation with the Astros down by a single run all season.  (I looked at it earlier today.  If I remember correctly, I don't think that Springer has come into the game in the 8th inning with the Astros down by less than 3 runs.) Last night Garner brought him into the game in that situation despite the fact that Springer was admittedly rusty.  That was a mistake in my opinion.  Garner is not infallible.

[pravata]

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Pravata.  Because he made a mistake.

I still don't get it.  He had Qualls ready, did he forget?  Did he make a mistake because he didn't agree with you?  If you knew it was a mistake why did you ask a question "Why..."?  Do you know what a question is?  Why not say, I would have brought in Qualls, Garner brought in Springer, therefore he made a mistake?

[pravata]

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Springer hasn't come into the game in a late inning situation with the Astros down by a single run all season.  (I looked at it earlier today.  If I remember correctly, I don't think that Springer has come into the game in the 8th inning with the Astros down by less than 3 runs.) Last night Garner brought him into the game in that situation despite the fact that Springer was admittedly rusty.  That was a mistake in my opinion.  Garner is not infallible.

No, but second guessers are.  Do you imagine anyone thinks Garner is?  Is that your strawman? (see these are questions, they are asking for an answer. I don't already know the answer.) You know exactly why Garner brought in Springer, you've been told why.  You didn't like the outcome therefore you whine about it and when we called you on it you trot out the weak whine that you're allowed to disagree and not be questioned.

[David in Jackson]

Last night, in a tie game, Garner brought in Wheeler and Lidge.  Obviously it didn't work out, but I'm not second guessing the move.  I thought it was an agressive move to keep the score tied and hope we could score a run to win.  Wheeler and Lidge have been depressingly bad this season, but they're still regarded as our two best relievers.

[pravata]

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Last night, in a tie game, Garner brought in Wheeler and Lidge.  Obviously it didn't work out, but I'm not second guessing the move.  I thought it was an agressive move to keep the score tied and hope we could score a run to win.  Wheeler and Lidge have been depressingly bad this season, but they're still regarded as our two best relievers.

Springer is part of the second group, that goes in when they're behind.  It's not like Garner just met him, he used Springer in close games last season too.

[davek]

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Wheeler and Lidge have been depressingly bad this season, but they're still regarded as our two best relievers.

By whom?...

I'd rather have Qualls in the game than either Wheeler or Lidge at this point...

And I'm guessing Garner is now at that point too...