Tipping Pitches

[Lefty]

Austin rag:  The Link

It's hard enough to get batters out even if they don't know what's coming. In Lidge's case, many National League batters apparently did know what was coming. McEwing and Astros shortstop Adam Everett told Lidge that he was alerting hitters to his pitches. It was something McEwing said he picked up when he was with the Mets.

"I've been tipping my pitches," a frustrated Lidge said, standing at his locker before Tuesday's game.

When he pitched out of the stretch and came to a stop at his chest before coming home, it was a slider. When his hands rested at his belt, a fastball was on its way. Easy enough to decipher.

"It really ticked me off," Lidge said, "because it took a month out of my career. It turns out to be a horrible month."

And the Chron:  The Link

He'd had other hints. Well, more than hints. Adam Everett got a tip from another National League hitter that Lidge was tipping his pitches. The closer's agent heard from a player.

When the Astros began looking at video of previous years, they found it. But Lidge is cautious about declaring the end of his troubles.

[pravata]

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Austin rag:  The Link

It's hard enough to get batters out even if they don't know what's coming. In Lidge's case, many National League batters apparently did know what was coming. McEwing and Astros shortstop Adam Everett told Lidge that he was alerting hitters to his pitches. It was something McEwing said he picked up when he was with the Mets.

"I've been tipping my pitches," a frustrated Lidge said, standing at his locker before Tuesday's game.

When he pitched out of the stretch and came to a stop at his chest before coming home, it was a slider. When his hands rested at his belt, a fastball was on its way. Easy enough to decipher.

"It really ticked me off," Lidge said, "because it took a month out of my career. It turns out to be a horrible month."

And the Chron:  The Link

He'd had other hints. Well, more than hints. Adam Everett got a tip from another National League hitter that Lidge was tipping his pitches. The closer's agent heard from a player.

When the Astros began looking at video of previous years, they found it. But Lidge is cautious about declaring the end of his troubles.

So it wasn't a new thing.

[Dobro]

"that is all 100% pitcherspeak bullshit."

The above quote is on the mark.

[Kit]

Good news! Seems as though nobody was swinging and missing anymore, alot more foul balls. Explains alot.....

Jim R. wrong again....

[JimR]

completely contradicts what Garner said.

pitcherspeak.

[Lefty]

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So it wasn't a new thing.

Nope, "a couple of years ago" according to McEwing.  Guess it took awhile to make the rounds.  Interesting though.

Still doesn't explain his terrible location much of the year, hopefully he can work out the shoulder/release point stuff we've been hearing about.

[pravata]

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So it wasn't a new thing.

Nope, "a couple of years ago" according to McEwing.  Guess it took awhile to make the rounds.  Interesting though.

Still doesn't explain his terrible location much of the year, hopefully he can work out the shoulder/release point stuff we've been hearing about.

Right, was it Schilling one time, tired of coordinating with the catcher, announced from the mound, "fast ball!"?

[JimR]

right. he's been tipping pitches for two years. 'course, he was unhittable for most of those two years. y'all will believe anything. i'll believe Garner and the pitching coach.

[Kit]

 if it is true they should have kept this quiet......and crossed em up when it mattered most....info is power as they say.

[HurricaneDavid]

I just reviewed the Garciaparra grand slam, and it looks like he came set at his chest before throwing a fastball, which would contradict this theory...

[Lefty]

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right. he's been tipping pitches for two years. 'course, he was unhittable for most of those two years.

Yeah, there was just a little bit of sarcasm in the first part of that last post.

They say he only does this from the stretch...in '04/05 his batting average against was lower with runners on than with the bases empty.

[JimR]

if a team picks something up from a grip or delivery--and it is easier to do than you think--they tell NO ONE. the idea that the Mets learned it and spread it around the league is absurd. next, that "tip" is very blatant and easy to discern from tapes. Garner debunked that theory last week after reviewing tapes with his pitching coach. i'll bet everyone of you can also. in addition, when Lidge was Lights Out Lidge, the next pitch could have been announced on the scoreboard, and it would have made no difference. he was unhittable even if the hitters knew what was coming. finally and most important, tipping pitches does not make the fastball high and away or make the slider bounce. poor mechanics cause those bad pitches, and it has been his wildness, caused by lousy mechanics that are basic to every pitcher, that led to his demise.

pitchers fear two things worse than Death: the first and worst is pain in the arm that saps arm strength and velocity; the second is a mechanical flaw that robs them of their ability to throw strikes and leads them to Steve Blass Hell. most pitchers will do anything or espouse any theory that allows denial of the Two Great Fears. "stiffness," "tightness," "uncomfortable," "problems with the mound," "tipping pitches," "stealing signs"--all of this means "i'm in a bad stretch, but i'm ok. no, really i am." Lidge has now told you that his arm and mechanics are and have been fine, but that where he placed his hands in the stretch caused all his problems. pitcherspeak.

[shortstop]

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if a team picks something up from a grip or delivery--and it is easier to do than you think--they tell NO ONE. the idea that the Mets learned it and spread it around the league is absurd. next, that "tip" is very blatant and easy to discern from tapes. Garner debunked that theory last week after reviewing tapes with his pitching coach. i'll bet everyone of you can also. in addition, when Lidge was Lights Out Lidge, the next pitch could have been announced on the scoreboard, and it would have made no difference. he was unhittable even if the hitters knew what was coming. finally and most important, tipping pitches does not make the fastball high and away or make the slider bounce. poor mechanics cause those bad pitches, and it has been his wildness, caused by lousy mechanics that are basic to every pitcher, that led to his demise.

pitchers fear two things worse than Death: the first and worst is pain in the arm that saps arm strength and velocity; the second is a mechanical flaw that robs them of their ability to throw strikes and leads them to Steve Blass Hell. most pitchers will do anything or espouse any theory that allows denial of the Two Great Fears. "stiffness," "tightness," "uncomfortable," "problems with the mound," "tipping pitches," "stealing signs"--all of this means "i'm in a bad stretch, but i'm ok. no, really i am." Lidge has now told you that his arm and mechanics are and have been fine, but that where he placed his hands in the stretch caused all his problems. pitcherspeak.

100% bullshit! Once again WRONG, but still not in doubt.

[No? in Austin]

If you have ungodly stuff, tipping a pitch isn't a problem.  If you tip location, then you're in trouble.  I don't know if the fact that the hitter knew it was a slider coming or a fastball had anything to do with it.  Lidge had zero location on his pitches for most of the month.  Flying open with his shoulder is more of a problem in that case than tipping a pitch.

If I'm a hitter and I see him flying open like that and couple it with knowing he's throwing me a heater, I might be inclined to let it go because it won't be a strike.  And then when I'm in a hitter's count, I'm looking for a zone to hit the ball.  That seems much more applicable to Lidge's problem than just to simply say "tipping pitches, problem solved".

[Twoniner]

  You guys need to reread the chronicle article.  The say that Everett was told from his agent that some teams had picked up on Lidge tipping pitches.   Just because little scrappy McCewing had something on Lidge two years ago doesn't mean the whole league did.  When Everett is learning from his agent, it's a good idea it's pretty widespread.   But I'm sure the guys who have been so stubborn shooting down posters saying Lidge has been tipping pitches will continue to do so.   I really don't see why some of you guys think this is such a propsterous explanation to some of Lidge's problems after watching hitters react to his pitches.  I think this will help a great deal with his control as well when his fastball isn't consistently getting hit 380 feet and he's not trying to be so perfect with it.

[pravata]

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if a team picks something up from a grip or delivery--and it is easier to do than you think--they tell NO ONE. the idea that the Mets learned it and spread it around the league is absurd. next, that "tip" is very blatant and easy to discern from tapes. Garner debunked that theory last week after reviewing tapes with his pitching coach. i'll bet everyone of you can also. in addition, when Lidge was Lights Out Lidge, the next pitch could have been announced on the scoreboard, and it would have made no difference. he was unhittable even if the hitters knew what was coming. finally and most important, tipping pitches does not make the fastball high and away or make the slider bounce. poor mechanics cause those bad pitches, and it has been his wildness, caused by lousy mechanics that are basic to every pitcher, that led to his demise.

pitchers fear two things worse than Death: the first and worst is pain in the arm that saps arm strength and velocity; the second is a mechanical flaw that robs them of their ability to throw strikes and leads them to Steve Blass Hell. most pitchers will do anything or espouse any theory that allows denial of the Two Great Fears. "stiffness," "tightness," "uncomfortable," "problems with the mound," "tipping pitches," "stealing signs"--all of this means "i'm in a bad stretch, but i'm ok. no, really i am." Lidge has now told you that his arm and mechanics are and have been fine, but that where he placed his hands in the stretch caused all his problems. pitcherspeak.

Dotel had a distinctive problem with his stretch. It was so bad even I noticed it.  If he came set with his hands high on his chest, he'd make a good pitch.  If he dropped his set lower, maybe by half a glove, his pitch would frisbee.  It wasn't a tipping situation, it was mechanical.  Does where Lidge sets have anything to do with where his pitches go?

[No? in Austin]

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100% bullshit! Once again WRONG, but still not in doubt.

I'd reconsider that statement if I were you.  It was a very solid analysis of what Lidge and others are saying in context.  If you take face value of "tipping pitches", you are the audience the media wants you to be or at least thinks you are... a non-baseball knowledgeable, pablum eating, radio talk-show, fix the problem like you fix a hamburger at a fast food place baseball fan.

[strosrays]

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if a team picks something up from a grip or delivery--and it is easier to do than you think--they tell NO ONE. the idea that the Mets learned it and spread it around the league is absurd. next, that "tip" is very blatant and easy to discern from tapes. Garner debunked that theory last week after reviewing tapes with his pitching coach. i'll bet everyone of you can also. in addition, when Lidge was Lights Out Lidge, the next pitch could have been announced on the scoreboard, and it would have made no difference. he was unhittable even if the hitters knew what was coming. finally and most important, tipping pitches does not make the fastball high and away or make the slider bounce. poor mechanics cause those bad pitches, and it has been his wildness, caused by lousy mechanics that are basic to every pitcher, that led to his demise.

pitchers fear two things worse than Death: the first and worst is pain in the arm that saps arm strength and velocity; the second is a mechanical flaw that robs them of their ability to throw strikes and leads them to Steve Blass Hell. most pitchers will do anything or espouse any theory that allows denial of the Two Great Fears. "stiffness," "tightness," "uncomfortable," "problems with the mound," "tipping pitches," "stealing signs"--all of this means "i'm in a bad stretch, but i'm ok. no, really i am." Lidge has now told you that his arm and mechanics are and have been fine, but that where he placed his hands in the stretch caused all his problems. pitcherspeak.

Once I heard it was Super Joe Ewing, I had to wonder about this.  If you go back and look at all the quotes, your pitcherspeak explanation makes the most sense.  Sort of like whistling past the graveyard.

Tipping pitches is a little like stealing signs -- it might give the opponent an edge, but its not magic.  You still have to hit the pitch.  If the baserunner on second can pick up the pitch called or location and relay it to the batter, that might help.  But there are also batters who don't want to be told.  It screws up their concentration.  As you say, even if you know Lidge's slider is coming -- and you could blind guess it right probably 75% of the time -- that's not even half the battle.  When he is 'on', you are not going to hit it anyway.  But if he  is struggling with lack of control, and having to groove a few to get strikes, well...

Mechanics, yes.  Thanks for this.  Best and clearest explanation I've seen.

[pravata]

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 You guys need to reread the chronicle article.  The say that Everett was told from his agent that some teams had picked up on Lidge tipping pitches.   Just because little scrappy McCewing had something on Lidge two years ago doesn't mean the whole league did.  When Everett is learning from his agent, it's a good idea it's pretty widespread.   But I'm sure the guys who have been so stubborn shooting down posters saying Lidge has been tipping pitches will continue to do so.

Which is it, was it widespread or was it just the Mets?  There a logical contradiction there.  I'm pretty sure Kent schooled his Dodger teammates.  If this has been known, how does it explain in any way Lidge's current ineffectiveness?

[No? in Austin]

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 But I'm sure the guys who have been so stubborn shooting down posters saying Lidge has been tipping pitches will continue to do so.   I really don't see why some of you guys think this is such a propsterous explanation to some of Lidge's problems after watching hitters react to his pitches.

No one is disputing "tipping his pitches" as a component of Lidge's problem.  What is erroneous is that it is the *only* thing or the primary reason he's getting hit hard.  A fastball located at the knees at 94 mph is almost impossible to hit.  Lidge could scream out "Hey hitter, fastball, outside corner, at the knees" and they won't hit it and if they did, it won't go very far, maybe a two hopper weakly back to the mound at best.

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I think this will help a great deal with his control as well when his fastball isn't consistently getting hit 380 feet and he's not trying to be so perfect with it.

"Tipping pitches" won't help control.  Proper mechanics will.  He corrects his flying open and he'll be fine.

[davek]

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 You guys need to reread the chronicle article.  

No dipstick, you need to read the comical article...

"On the plane ride home from Los Angeles last week, after his worst outing of the season, Lidge and pitching coach Jim Hickey watched video almost the entire flight.

They found that Lidge needed to slow his shoulder and get his hand more behind the ball upon delivery. Doing so improves his control."

Which is what the OWA expert has been opining all along...

You can get all wet and squishy about tipping pitches all you want but I'm betting the correction in mechanics is going to have a lot more effect on the 57' sliders....

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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 You guys need to reread the chronicle article.  The say that Everett was told from his agent that some teams had picked up on Lidge tipping pitches.   Just because little scrappy McCewing had something on Lidge two years ago doesn't mean the whole league did.  When Everett is learning from his agent, it's a good idea it's pretty widespread.   But I'm sure the guys who have been so stubborn shooting down posters saying Lidge has been tipping pitches will continue to do so.

Which is it, was it widespread or was it just the Mets?  There a logical contradiction there.  I'm pretty sure Kent schooled his Dodger teammates.  If this has been known, how does it explain in any way Lidge's current ineffectiveness?

ooh ooh... can I answer?

Because if they know what pitch is coming, combined with the awareness that his mechanics are causing him to struggle with location, they can "sit" on the pitch said pitcher will fall back on to "get a strike", i.e. fastball, only looking for it in the zone.  That's the theory anyway.  The hitter still has to hit a round ball with a rounded stick.  But everyone knows that's easy....

[No? in Austin]

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If the baserunner on second can pick up the pitch called or location and relay it to the batter, that might help.

If a runner is stealing signs, it doesn't really bother a pitcher/catcher battery.  If he is stealing location and the battery find out, then someone is getting dotted.

[pravata]

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 You guys need to reread the chronicle article.  The say that Everett was told from his agent that some teams had picked up on Lidge tipping pitches.   Just because little scrappy McCewing had something on Lidge two years ago doesn't mean the whole league did.  When Everett is learning from his agent, it's a good idea it's pretty widespread.   But I'm sure the guys who have been so stubborn shooting down posters saying Lidge has been tipping pitches will continue to do so.

Which is it, was it widespread or was it just the Mets?  There a logical contradiction there.  I'm pretty sure Kent schooled his Dodger teammates.  If this has been known, how does it explain in any way Lidge's current ineffectiveness?

ooh ooh... can I answer?

Because if they know what pitch is coming, combined with the awareness that his mechanics are causing him to struggle with location, they can "sit" on the pitch said pitcher will fall back on to "get a strike", i.e. fastball, only looking for it in the zone.  That's the theory anyway.  The hitter still has to hit a round ball with a rounded stick.  But everyone knows that's easy....

Tah Dah!  But, if they know he's having control issues, wouldn't they sit on whatever he was getting over anyway?  Not much advantage either way, tipping a 57' slider.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

In all fairness "tipping pitches" is obviously a problem. Can a pitcher be effective even though the hitter knows what's coming?  Hell yeah.  Can a pitcher be successful if they are unable to locate their pitches?  Not likely, and definitely not consistantly....

[Andyzipp]

BTW, I'm so glad that Jim's fan club is back this season.

Excellent points they've made in this thread.

[No? in Austin]

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Tah Dah!  But, if they know he's having control issues, wouldn't they sit on whatever he was getting over anyway?  Not much advantage either way, tipping a 57' slider.

The other day, I watched someone (Brandley?) do an analysis of Randy Johnson's control problems on BBT.  Believe it or not, it was the same issue that is plaquing Lidge right now... the front side shoulder is flying open causing the arm to lag behind and thus he has no control of the slider (Mr. Nasty?) any more.  The effect on his fastball is equally bad and Johnson is getting hammered by even pedestrian hitters.

It was a very good video analysis of "flying open" and would've been good to see in comparison to what Hickey and Lidge discovered on video as well.

[pravata]

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BTW, I'm so glad that Jim's fan club is back this season.

Excellent points they've made in this thread.

I can't tell which part is the sarcasm.  It's like that old lady, young lady, optical illusion.

[Andyzipp]

Mr. Snappy.

Which conjures images of...well, nevermind.

[pravata]

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Tah Dah!  But, if they know he's having control issues, wouldn't they sit on whatever he was getting over anyway?  Not much advantage either way, tipping a 57' slider.

The other day, I watched someone (Brandley?) do an analysis of Randy Johnson's control problems on BBT.  Believe it or not, it was the same issue that is plaquing Lidge right now... the front side shoulder is flying open causing the arm to lag behind and thus he has no control of the slider (Mr. Nasty?) any more.  The effect on his fastball is equally bad and Johnson is getting hammered by even pedestrian hitters.

It was a very good video analysis of "flying open" and would've been good to see in comparison to what Hickey and Lidge discovered on video as well.

Ausmus credited Pettitte's effectiveness in his last appearance to "pointing his lead shoulder at the mitt".

[homer]

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Tah Dah!  But, if they know he's having control issues, wouldn't they sit on whatever he was getting over anyway?  Not much advantage either way, tipping a 57' slider.

The other day, I watched someone (Brandley?) do an analysis of Randy Johnson's control problems on BBT.  Believe it or not, it was the same issue that is plaquing Lidge right now... the front side shoulder is flying open causing the arm to lag behind and thus he has no control of the slider (Mr. Nasty?) any more.  The effect on his fastball is equally bad and Johnson is getting hammered by even pedestrian hitters.

It was a very good video analysis of "flying open" and would've been good to see in comparison to what Hickey and Lidge discovered on video as well.

Flying open seems to be to be a symptom of the mechanical issue and not the 'problem'. What makes a pitcher's shoulder fly open?

[Andyzipp]

Sarcasm?

I think it's fantastic that the JRFC is so convinced that Jim is wrong about anything he types that they don't even need to say why any more.

Stupid former college pitcher and baseball coach...

[Lefty]

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That seems much more applicable to Lidge's problem than just to simply say "tipping pitches, problem solved".

Good stuff Noe, you too Jim.

Missed his last 2 outings, any noticable changes?

[pravata]

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Sarcasm?

I think it's fantastic that the JRFC is so convinced that Jim is wrong about anything he types that they don't even need to say why any more.

Stupid former college pitcher and baseball coach...

Damn, I liked it the other way better.  Kinda made me queasy.  Yeah, what does he know, anybody can help a guy pitch their way into the majors.

[Andyzipp]

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Flying open seems to be to be a symptom of the mechanical issue and not the 'problem'. What makes a pitcher's shoulder fly open?

Conceivably it could be an injury (arm pain) but more likely it's just sloppy mechanics that would make a shoulder fly open.  Lidge isn't exactly known for his solid mechanics.

[No? in Austin]

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Mr. Snappy.

Which conjures images of...well, nevermind.

YEAH, that's it!  Mr. Snappy.  The video showed what Mr. Snappy looked like when Johnson threw his no-no at the Braves in 2004 and what it looks like today.  The difference was the front shoulder pointing towards third base today as opposed to being tucked and pointed towards the plate in 2004.

And pravata, it was Schilling who indeed would mouth "fastball" and then tilt his head either left or right to signal location to Damian Miller when they were both in Arizona.  That year, the D'Backs won the world series over the Yanks.  It was the same year that Schilling did the same thing in the All-Star game and struck out A-Rod doing so.

[No? in Austin]

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Flying open seems to be to be a symptom of the mechanical issue and not the 'problem'. What makes a pitcher's shoulder fly open?

Conceivably it could be an injury (arm pain) but more likely it's just sloppy mechanics that would make a shoulder fly open.  Lidge isn't exactly known for his solid mechanics.

I fear the former, which is a rumor making the rounds.  It could also be dead arm syndrome hitting Lidge early due to his regime during the WBC being aggressive.  Who knows at this point.  Perhaps Lidge is convincing himself that if he keeps from tipping his pitches, the mechanics can come along when he's feeling a wee bit better.

I think Garner suspects something along the lines of dead arm, hence why he's giving him a lighter load for awhile.  In the interim, Lidge gets stronger, works on his mechanics and if he tips his pitch or not, he'll be okay.  All that is my conjecture of course and based on nothing factual.

[Andyzipp]

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Flying open seems to be to be a symptom of the mechanical issue and not the 'problem'. What makes a pitcher's shoulder fly open?

Conceivably it could be an injury (arm pain) but more likely it's just sloppy mechanics that would make a shoulder fly open.  Lidge isn't exactly known for his solid mechanics.

I fear the former, which is a rumor making the rounds.

Also, Lidge isn't exactly known for his health.

[davek]

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Flying open seems to be to be a symptom of the mechanical issue and not the 'problem'. What makes a pitcher's shoulder fly open?

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...Lidge needed to slow his shoulder and get his hand more behind the ball...

Got it now?...

[homer]

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Flying open seems to be to be a symptom of the mechanical issue and not the 'problem'. What makes a pitcher's shoulder fly open?

Conceivably it could be an injury (arm pain) but more likely it's just sloppy mechanics that would make a shoulder fly open.  Lidge isn't exactly known for his solid mechanics.

His mechanics were lights out solid a couple of years ago. If he isn't hurt, then it tells me this will be temporary.

One other thing that has been discussed before is him adding another pitch. How hard is it for a MLB pitcher to add a pitch to his arsenal and use it effectively? How much time does it take?

[pravata]

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Mr. Snappy.

Which conjures images of...well, nevermind.

YEAH, that's it!  Mr. Snappy.  The video showed what Mr. Snappy looked like when Johnson threw his no-no at the Braves in 2004 and what it looks like today.  The difference was the front shoulder pointing towards third base today as opposed to being tucked and pointed towards the plate in 2004.

And pravata, it was Schilling who indeed would mouth "fastball" and then tilt his head either left or right to signal location to Damian Miller when they were both in Arizona.  That year, the D'Backs won the world series over the Yanks.  It was the same year that Schilling did the same thing in the All-Star game and struck out A-Rod doing so.

That's why they call lefties "crafty".  They wouldn't do that. Schilling is no lefty.

[Twoniner]

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Which is it, was it widespread or was it just the Mets? There a logical contradiction there.

McCewing said he had something 2 years ago.  

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if a team picks something up from a grip or delivery--and it is easier to do than you think--they tell NO ONE. the idea that the Mets learned it and spread it around the league is absurd.

Even in your world of super secrecy where no players are friends with players from other teams, same goes for scouts.  It could easily go league wide just from other teams picking up on it themselves, or from simple player movement from team to team.

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You can get all wet and squishy about tipping pitches all you want but I'm betting the correction in mechanics is going to have a lot more effect on the 57' sliders....

Having pitched in college and being more than a messageboard suckup, I actually have experience with what can cause mechanical problems.  One of them being getting the shit knocked out of your pitches, and having hitters lay off sliders that hadn't happened in your MLB career.  

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"Tipping pitches" won't help control. Proper mechanics will. He corrects his flying open and he'll be fine.

 

 Exactly, but having the confidence that there was something else going on will IMO help speed up his ability to make the mechanical changes.     When the guy is walking a batter per inning I think it's obvious that tipping pitches isn't his only problem.   I'm saying a lack of confidence can cause some erosion of mechanics and control.   I think that's obvious when you look at how much worse his flying open had gotten during the course of this season.  His last game as closer was by far his worst mechanicly.    I think that working with the idea that he's been flying open and tipping pitches will get him fixed  faster than just knowing he's flying open.    my 2 cents

[strosrays]

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BTW, I'm so glad that Jim's fan club is back this season.

Excellent points they've made in this thread.

There is a hot line now.  Or maybe a telegraph line.  Not sure.  Anyway, way more advanced than a boy on a pony.  The word should be getting out as we speak, by the mid-afternoon we should see quite a turnout.

[pravata]

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Which is it, was it widespread or was it just the Mets? There a logical contradiction there.

McCewing said he had something 2 years ago.

Right, so if the tipping was the real issue, Lidge would have had problems earlier.  It is, as you've suggested, more complicated than that.

[No? in Austin]

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Flying open seems to be to be a symptom of the mechanical issue and not the 'problem'. What makes a pitcher's shoulder fly open?

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...Lidge needed to slow his shoulder and get his hand more behind the ball...

Got it now?...

The main issue with flying open is to cause the arm to drag through the follow through.  When a pitcher does that, he has no control of the location of the pitch.  When the shoulder is in the proper position when throwing, then the arm follows through in the same location.  If you throw off-speed or a breaking pitch that is well located, like a slider, it will break late and off the location that a hitter thinks it is going to.  If you fly open, the ball isn't heading for a zone you like any way and it will break late and way out of the zone.

The kids I'm coaching right now, I'm making them point with thier gloves at the target (first base, second base, et. al.) so the accuracy is there.  I don't care about velocity right now.  I then make them point their front leg towards the same location (hoping that automatically their torso is turned in the proper location by proxy).  Then, while they are in that position, I make them extend the ball as far back as possible behind thier head.  Then I make them throw with accuracy in mind (don't turn your head, step into the throw, keep your glove in the position you start with).  All this is to force them to point thier shoulder.

Almost all the kids are throwing so well now that parents are surprised at the improvement.  It's become a fun practice.  Tom Emansky, eat your heart out!

[Andyzipp]

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 Exactly, but having the confidence that there was something else going on will IMO help speed up his ability to make the mechanical changes.     When the guy is walking a batter per inning I think it's obvious that tipping pitches isn't his only problem.   I'm saying a lack of confidence can cause some erosion of mechanics and control.   I think that's obvious when you look at how much worse his flying open had gotten during the course of this season.  His last game as closer was by far his worst mechanicly.    I think that working with the idea that he's been flying open and tipping pitches will get him fixed  faster than just knowing he's flying open.    my 2 cents

The more I think about this, the more I think, because this is Lidge we're talking about, it isn't confidence, it isn't tipping pitches or any of the other things.  

I think it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that Lidge is (once again) injured and the flawed mechanics are him compensating for that injury.

[No? in Austin]

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I think it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that Lidge is (once again) injured and the flawed mechanics are him compensating for that injury.

'Tis the subject that is unspoken yet communicated by all parties involved.  It's not so much the read between the lines type of stuff, but pretty darn near.  Performance tells you more than what is said (including Garner letting Lidge take it easy for a while) sure smacks of not trying to say "dead arm/maybe injury" than what is being fed to the masses wanting answers right now... and that includes fans and media alike.

Remember Billy Wagner in 2001?  Dierker tried to say a lot about Wagner pitful performance to the media without perhaps considering that Wagner was still fighting his arm problems.  Came to a head when Waggs told Dierker to "grab a bat"!

[MRaup]

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BTW, I'm so glad that Jim's fan club is back this season.

Excellent points they've made in this thread.

There is a hot line now.  Or maybe a telegraph line.  Not sure.  Anyway, way more advanced than a boy on a pony.  The word should be getting out as we speak, by the mid-afternoon we should see quite a turnout.

.--- .. -- / .-. .- ..- .--. / .. ... / - . .... / ... ..- -.-. -.- !!!

[JimR]

i have not looked at tapes, but Garner and Hickey did, and they said he is not tipping pitches. the placement of his hands in the stretch is not subtle. if he was doing that, they would see it.

i do not know about an injury, but his flying open should be apparent to everyone.

[BizidyDizidy]

.- -. -.. /  .- /  .-. . -.. /  .-. .- .. -.. . .-.

[No? in Austin]

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i do not know about an injury, but his flying open should be apparent to everyone.

And I need to specify that I know *NOTHING* about an injury to Lidge either.  It is my speculation that dead arm and/or injury are an answer and given this is Lidge, not one I'm willing to dismiss as the reason for overcompensation and thus degredation (sp?) of mechanics.

[MusicMan]

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Having pitched in college and being more than a messageboard suckup, I actually have experience with what can cause mechanical problems.  

You really should check the bona fides of the person whose opinion you're dismissing.

[No? in Austin]

BTW, here is a list that Dick Mills wrote on mechanical flaws he looks for on a pitcher he is tutoring:

• Poor balance - weight is on heel
  
• Over-rotates the upper body before coming out of the balance position - ends up in poor landing position
  
• Poor arm action - too much arm extension or pulling the arm back behind the body
  
• Breaks hands too far away from body, too low or too high or not in the center
  
• Fingers get under the ball and the wrist hooks
  
• Not getting the arm up into the high cocked position (L-position) at foot plant
  
• Poor timing of the leg going down and out and the arm going up
  
• Poor weight transfer - body gets out ahead of the arm
  
• Lead arm action too aggressive causing shoulder to open too early
  
• Lead leg goes out and down instead of down and out
  
• Swings leg out to landing
  
• Lands on heel
  
• Lands on a stiff front leg
  
• Lands too open or too closed - loses power and adds stress to the arm
  
• Leads with upper body and strides too short
  
• Over-flexes back leg, pushes out and over-strides
  
• Doesn't brace up front knee upon landing - knee continues to drift forward
  
• Arm angle too high - head comes off line - pitcher leans to one side
  
• During arm acceleration, throwing hand comes too close to head.
  
• Poor hip rotation - backside and back foot drag away from rubber
  
• Poor finish - pitcher too upright - cuts off arm into body - doesn't finish with a flat back
  
• Recoils arm upon ball release
  
• Ball has cutting action (horizontal break) because pitcher is getting on the side of the ball instead of staying on top and behind the ball

Mills says he usually finds about four to five of the list above in a flawed mechanics.  BTW - Lidge has mechanical problems any way with his delivery.  Stiff leg being one of them.  Any way, the primary result of mechanical flaws is loss of velocity and control.

[tophfar]

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Having pitched in college and being more than a messageboard suckup, I actually have experience with what can cause mechanical problems.  

You really should check the bona fides of the person whose opinion you're dismissing.

Jim here's got a job.  Jim's got prospects.  He's bona fide, what are you?

[JimR]

i do not know Dick Mills, but i do have an opinion:
The Link

[MusicMan]

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Having pitched in college and being more than a messageboard suckup, I actually have experience with what can cause mechanical problems.  

You really should check the bona fides of the person whose opinion you're dismissing.

Jim here's got a job.  Jim's got prospects.  He's bona fide, what are you?

I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me...

[Foghorn]

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if a team picks something up from a grip or delivery--and it is easier to do than you think--they tell NO ONE. the idea that the Mets learned it and spread it around the league is absurd. next, that "tip" is very blatant and easy to discern from tapes. Garner debunked that theory last week after reviewing tapes with his pitching coach. i'll bet everyone of you can also. in addition, when Lidge was Lights Out Lidge, the next pitch could have been announced on the scoreboard, and it would have made no difference. he was unhittable even if the hitters knew what was coming. finally and most important, tipping pitches does not make the fastball high and away or make the slider bounce. poor mechanics cause those bad pitches, and it has been his wildness, caused by lousy mechanics that are basic to every pitcher, that led to his demise.

pitchers fear two things worse than Death: the first and worst is pain in the arm that saps arm strength and velocity; the second is a mechanical flaw that robs them of their ability to throw strikes and leads them to Steve Blass Hell. most pitchers will do anything or espouse any theory that allows denial of the Two Great Fears. "stiffness," "tightness," "uncomfortable," "problems with the mound," "tipping pitches," "stealing signs"--all of this means "i'm in a bad stretch, but i'm ok. no, really i am." Lidge has now told you that his arm and mechanics are and have been fine, but that where he placed his hands in the stretch caused all his problems. pitcherspeak.

First off, this HAS to be Jim's longest post ever.  Need to save it for that reason alone.

Second of all, I like his damnation imagery   "fear worse than Death" and "Steve Blass Hell".  

Third, he's right.

I had a friend in high school I'd golf with.  Occasionally, he'd bring another buddy along.  The buddy would hit a few good shots in a row, then shank 2 or 3 in a row, then after the next non-shank would exclaim "now I know what I'm doing wrong".  Yet sure enough, a few shots later the shanks would continue.

Moral of the story, people don't want to admit a harsh truth.  This buddy of my friend was just an average bad golfer.  He just couldn't admit it to us (we were both pretty good in high school).  Something is affecting Lidge that he is doing everything he can to say "see here, this is the problem.  Now I know what to do.  I'll pitch 100% from the stretch.  I'll quit tipping pitches.  I'll wear garter belts with the rose in the front..."

[tophfar]

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Jim here's got a job.  Jim's got prospects.  He's bona fide, what are you?

I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me...

buzz wrong, acceptable answers would have been...

I'll tell you what I am - I'm the damn paterfamilias! You can't marry him!

or

I was not hit by a train. Damnit, I am the paterfamilias!

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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BTW, I'm so glad that Jim's fan club is back this season.

Excellent points they've made in this thread.

There is a hot line now.  Or maybe a telegraph line.  Not sure.  Anyway, way more advanced than a boy on a pony.  The word should be getting out as we speak, by the mid-afternoon we should see quite a turnout.

I've been reluctant to mention one of my new neighbors, since the relocation from Dallas to Austin, is one of the baseball coaches at McCallum.  One, I forgot his first name.  Two, being a Jim sycophant, I figured it was only a matter of time before Jim realized I was inching closer and closer, in a stalker sort of way.  Does that make me Jim's #1 fan?

[NeilT]

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BTW, here is a list that Dick Mills wrote on mechanical flaws he looks for on a pitcher he is tutoring:

• Poor balance - weight is on heel
  
• Over-rotates the upper body before coming out of the balance position - ends up in poor landing position
  
• Poor arm action - too much arm extension or pulling the arm back behind the body
  
• Breaks hands too far away from body, too low or too high or not in the center
  
• Fingers get under the ball and the wrist hooks
  
• Not getting the arm up into the high cocked position (L-position) at foot plant
  
• Poor timing of the leg going down and out and the arm going up
  
• Poor weight transfer - body gets out ahead of the arm
  
• Lead arm action too aggressive causing shoulder to open too early
  
• Lead leg goes out and down instead of down and out
  
• Swings leg out to landing
  
• Lands on heel
  
• Lands on a stiff front leg
  
• Lands too open or too closed - loses power and adds stress to the arm
  
• Leads with upper body and strides too short
  
• Over-flexes back leg, pushes out and over-strides
  
• Doesn't brace up front knee upon landing - knee continues to drift forward
  
• Arm angle too high - head comes off line - pitcher leans to one side
  
• During arm acceleration, throwing hand comes too close to head.
  
• Poor hip rotation - backside and back foot drag away from rubber
  
• Poor finish - pitcher too upright - cuts off arm into body - doesn't finish with a flat back
  
• Recoils arm upon ball release
  
• Ball has cutting action (horizontal break) because pitcher is getting on the side of the ball instead of staying on top and behind the ball

Mills says he usually finds about four to five of the list above in a flawed mechanics.  BTW - Lidge has mechanical problems any way with his delivery.  Stiff leg being one of them.  Any way, the primary result of mechanical flaws is loss of velocity and control.

That last item is particularly interesting to me, because it's my son's particular --- issue.  His most recent coach says there's nothing "wrong" with it mechanically, it's just hard for most kids to throw that way for strikes.  As long as he can throw stikes, the coach says, the resulting action on the ball is great.  Don't let anyone change it, he says.

[JimR]

ole Mac High is having a good season. if they make it to the State Tournament, they can begin to discuss their being as good as we were in 1997. not before.

[JimR]

if his hand is on the side of the ball, Neil, change him immediately. you fix that by getting the elbow up and getting the hand on top so that he is "throwing downhill."

[NeilT]

I'll watch, I'm not sure if it's a hand problem or just a low arm slot.  There's definitely a 3/4 slot, but I'm just assuming that anyone who throws out of a low slot gets to the side of the ballwith their hand.

[JimR]

one creates the other.

he should have his elbow up and forget about "arm slots." watch to see if his elbow is at about shoulder level.

one should never get the hand on the side of the ball. that is a flaw.

[NeilT]

He's not thinking about arm slots, I assure you. He just does not, will not, and I'm not sure cannot get his arm up.  Coaches have yelled at him, fathers have yelled at him, I'd guess that if I listened hard he's yelled at him.  He just throws low.  From the time he was 7 until now 14 he's thrown low. I gathered from the description of the motion on the ball that his hand is to the side, because that's exactly what the ball does--it cuts away from right hand batters.

The coach isn't a bad coach.  He caught through through AAA and he coaches at that elitist University in, not of, Houston.  He's sorta related to someone here, though I can't recall who, except it's someone who can't keep his pants up when he's around BudGirl.  Basically he said there's nothing forced about it, it's an easy motion for him, he throws strikes, don't change it.  Me, after 7 years, I'm worn out trying to change it, so his verdict made me happy.

Honestly, I think I'm more likely to get him to quit baseball than to get him to get his arm up.  Maybe his high school coaches will take care of one or the other.  More power to 'em.

[JimR]

ok, well, there you go. good luck to his HS coaches, i guess.  

if he gets his hand under the ball, ask him please not to do that.

[NeilT]

I'll have him switch to softball.  Frankly, I'm worn out with it, though.  I figure if he would get his elbow up, life would be better.  Maybe I'll send him to you for the summer.

That's probably exactly what you need, a 14 year old.

[JimR]

i do great with other folks' kids. that is not fair to Mark-he was easy to coach, too.

[Limey]

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Tipping pitches is a little like stealing signs -- it might give the opponent an edge, but its not magic.  You still have to hit the pitch.  If the baserunner on second can pick up the pitch called or location and relay it to the batter, that might help.  But there are also batters who don't want to be told.  It screws up their concentration.  As you say, even if you know Lidge's slider is coming -- and you could blind guess it right probably 75% of the time -- that's not even half the battle.

This also presumes that Lidge or whoever will throw the exact pitch they intend.  Like a video game...

[HudsonHawk]

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i do great with other folks' kids. that is not fair to Mark-he was easy to coach, too.

Mark's only complaint about you as his coach was that you didn't let him run often enough.

[JimR]

i have heard that from him for years. his goal was to steal three bases, and i let him run twice.

[HudsonHawk]

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i have heard that from him for years. his goal was to steal three bases, and i let him run twice.

Well, if he'd have unhooked that bass boat he was dragging around, he might have gotten all three.

[NeilT]

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i do great with other folks' kids. that is not fair to Mark-he was easy to coach, too.

He's not stubborn, but coachable?  I dunno.  You can almost hear it in his head:  ok ok get the arm up that feels funny there I did it that's nice gosh it's kindofa nice day out  pizza's nice I like pizza  where's home plate I oughta throw again sometime . . .

The kid is a the walking embodiment of lefty-consciousness.  Maybe he needs to be dosed before pitching, just like test days.

Nice kid, though.

[NeilT]

Mark surely can run.  I've seen it.

[HudsonHawk]

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i do great with other folks' kids. that is not fair to Mark-he was easy to coach, too.

He's not stubborn, but coachable?  I dunno.  You can almost hear it in his head:  ok ok get the arm up that feels funny there I did it that's nice gosh it's kindofa nice day out  pizza's nice I like pizza  where's home plate I oughta throw again sometime . . .

The kid is a the walking embodiment of lefty-consciousness.  Maybe he needs to be dosed before pitching, just like test days.

Nice kid, though.

The only "problem" you son has is being 14.  He'll grow out that though.

[Limey]

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I had a friend in high school I'd golf with.  Occasionally, he'd bring another buddy along.  The buddy would hit a few good shots in a row, then shank 2 or 3 in a row, then after the next non-shank would exclaim "now I know what I'm doing wrong".  Yet sure enough, a few shots later the shanks would continue.

Moral of the story, people don't want to admit a harsh truth.  This buddy of my friend was just an average bad golfer.  He just couldn't admit it to us (we were both pretty good in high school).  Something is affecting Lidge that he is doing everything he can to say "see here, this is the problem.  Now I know what to do.  I'll pitch 100% from the stretch.  I'll quit tipping pitches.  I'll wear garter belts with the rose in the front..."

Two weeks ago I shot 76, including a triple bogey 6 on the par 3 16th caused entirely by me missing the green and then chipping into a sodden bunker after torrential rain the night before.  C'est la vie.  Last week I need to par 17 and 18 for 78, and pulled two consecutive drives out of bounds on 17 (ended up at 83).  Both drives were identical, and the only reason the second ball wasn't shredded by the same ignorant fuck with a lawnmower as was the first was that it landed two feet away under a bush.

Bottom line, knowing what you did wrong and not repeating it are two very different things.

[strosrays]

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i do great with other folks' kids. that is not fair to Mark-he was easy to coach, too.

The 9-year-old expressed an interest over the winter in learning to pitch, so I have been teaching him the basics, which is all I know.  Built a mound in the corner of the backyard, we work on it 3-4 times a week in the evenings.  His coach has let him pitch some relief because he can get it somewhere near the plate most of the time, which is everything at that age.

I taught him a very basic, generic windup.  He wanted to pitch from a stretch - a lot of kids that age do for some reason - but I told him to forget it.  It's funny because what I taught was what I guess I grew up with, more a rock-and-throw windup than the Tom Seaver drop-and-drive.  But when he gets in a game, he goes into this exaggerrated Juan Marichal thing, back to the plate mid-windup and a big leg kick.  It's hilarious, the other parents and his coaches get a big kick out of it.  But it works pretty well for him right now.  I guess my '70s upbringing came through a little more than I realized when I was teaching him.

[astro pete]

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I had a friend in high school I'd golf with.  Occasionally, he'd bring another buddy along.  The buddy would hit a few good shots in a row, then shank 2 or 3 in a row, then after the next non-shank would exclaim "now I know what I'm doing wrong".  Yet sure enough, a few shots later the shanks would continue.

Moral of the story, people don't want to admit a harsh truth.  This buddy of my friend was just an average bad golfer.  He just couldn't admit it to us (we were both pretty good in high school).  Something is affecting Lidge that he is doing everything he can to say "see here, this is the problem.  Now I know what to do.  I'll pitch 100% from the stretch.  I'll quit tipping pitches.  I'll wear garter belts with the rose in the front..."

Two weeks ago I shot 76, including a triple bogey 6 on the par 3 16th caused entirely by me missing the green and then chipping into a sodden bunker after torrential rain the night before.  C'est la vie.  Last week I need to par 17 and 18 for 78, and pulled two consecutive drives out of bounds on 17 (ended up at 83).  Both drives were identical, and the only reason the second ball wasn't shredded by the same ignorant fuck with a lawnmower as was the first was that it landed two feet away under a bush.

Bottom line, knowing what you did wrong and not repeating it are two very different things.

Bottom line, Limey is better than I am at golf.

[Limey]

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Bottom line, Limey is better than I am at golf.

I smoke all these fools.