Strategy in the 9th last night....

[Foghorn]

Heard Lidge say after the Lofton triple, he was going for a strikeout.  His goal was not to allow the Dodgers to put the ball in play to drive home Lofton on a flyball or groundout.  So he kept throwing slider after slider in the dirt hoping they would chase.  They didn't.

Seems he was willing to risk the big inning, to keep the run from scoring on a hit/grounder/flyout.  

As the home team, I think the strategy was wrong.  Allowing Lofton to score is not the end of the world.  You gotta protect the downside risk.

Or am i just being a pussy?

Thoughts (on the strategy not whether or not I am a pussy)?

[lc_db]

One vote for pussy.

In my eyes, his job is to protect the win.  He's a strikeout pitcher when he is on.  He went with his best pitch, but just didn't "have" it last night.

Starters can get by w/o their "A" game on occasion.  Closers rarely have that luxury.

That's baseball.

[sporadic]

I am not sure if there is a steadfast rule in baseball, but in Baketball the rule is to go for a tie at home, win on the road - obviously that is when trailing, having the lead makes it a little different.  I would guess that it is a little differebt in baseball, in that other factors would play a big role (available pitchers, what part of the lineup is due up, etc.)  All of that being said, I definately would NOT have been that aggressive, extra innings is not going to LOSE you the game, the outcome last night will 99% of the time.

[pravata]

Quote:
Heard Lidge say after the Lofton triple, he was going for a strikeout.  His goal was not to allow the Dodgers to put the ball in play to drive home Lofton on a flyball or groundout.  So he kept throwing slider after slider in the dirt hoping they would chase.  They didn't.

Seems he was willing to risk the big inning, to keep the run from scoring on a hit/grounder/flyout.  

As the home team, I think the strategy was wrong.  Allowing Lofton to score is not the end of the world.  You gotta protect the downside risk.

Or am i just being a pussy?

Thoughts (on the strategy not whether or not I am a pussy)?

Milo said the real problem started when he walked Drew.  JD said that the runner on 3rd messed him up, he was throwing away from contact.  Pitching scared if you want to take it that far.  I think the real problem is that Jeff Kent can spot a Brad Lidge slider when he takes the sign from Ausmus.

[MusicMan]

Lidge is a strikeout pitcher.  I had no problem with the strategy.  If you've got Wheeler or Qualls in there, completely different story.

[Limey]

I believe the strategy was to get Furcal and Lofton then try to deal with Drew/Kent.  When Lofton smoked one (clearly, Lidge challenging him) that strategy fell apart and now you're looking at two very dangerous and patient hitters...plus Nomar.

A lesser player than Drew Ks in that at-bat.  When he didn't, you set up the double play with a slow-running Kent at the plate.  Still a good strategy, but one that again didn't pan out in the Astros favour.

Basically, the plan and adjustments thereto were sound, IMHO.  The other guys have a say in the outcome, however.

[sporadic]

I think things would be much different if he could get to 0-1 in the count more often.  I believe he is struggling because he is having a hard time throwing ANY pitch for strikes.  Once he gets behind in the count batters are making himn throw a strike before commiting to a pitch...therefore there are fewer swings at sliders in the dirt.

[pravata]

Quote:
I believe the strategy was to get Furcal and Lofton then try to deal with Drew/Kent.  When Lofton smoked one (clearly, Lidge challenging him) that strategy fell apart and now you're looking at two very dangerous and patient hitters...plus Nomar.

A lesser player than Drew Ks in that at-bat.  When he didn't, you set up the double play with a slow-running Kent at the plate.  Still a good strategy, but one that again didn't pan out in the Astros favour.

Basically, the plan and adjustments thereto were sound, IMHO.  The other guys have a say in the outcome, however.

He missed the corner on a pitch that Drew wasn't going to offer at and Kent wasn't born yesterday.

[Limey]

Quote:
He missed the corner on a pitch that Drew wasn't going to offer at and Kent wasn't born yesterday.

Kent wasn't going to go after anything he couldn't lift.  Better to strike out than hit a ground ball.

[Foghorn]

Quote:

Quote:
Heard Lidge say after the Lofton triple, he was going for a strikeout.  His goal was not to allow the Dodgers to put the ball in play to drive home Lofton on a flyball or groundout.  So he kept throwing slider after slider in the dirt hoping they would chase.  They didn't.

Seems he was willing to risk the big inning, to keep the run from scoring on a hit/grounder/flyout.  

As the home team, I think the strategy was wrong.  Allowing Lofton to score is not the end of the world.  You gotta protect the downside risk.

Or am i just being a pussy?

Thoughts (on the strategy not whether or not I am a pussy)?

JD said that the runner on 3rd messed him up, he was throwing away from contact.  Pitching scared if you want to take it that far.  I think the real problem is that Jeff Kent can spot a Brad Lidge slider when he takes the sign from Ausmus.

I want no part of challenging Kent with a fastball.  

I think Lidge's comments reflect what JD was saying (which is why JD is a great analyst...he nailed exactly what was going on).  He didn't want to throw a slider anywhere near the hitting zone, bouncing it up there on purpose (even to a greater degree than he normally does).  

I haven't checked around the 'net, but did anyone report what Garner said to the troops when he visited the mound?

[JimR]

the strategy was correct, imo, but he is not going to get a K from Drew or Kent if he bounces the slider. he has to make it appear hittable, and he did not.

i questioned a bunch of locations, but the only pitch i questioned was the third straight FB to Nomar.

[Foghorn]

Quote:
the strategy was correct, imo, but he is not going to get a K from Drew or Kent if he bounces the slider. he has to make it appear hittable, and he did not.

i questioned a bunch of locations, but the only pitch i questioned was the third straight FB to Nomar.

Failure to execute in that his "slider in the dirt" wasn't just a "slider in the dirt" but rather a "slider bouncing 4 feet in front of the plate"?  Overthrowing?

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:

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Heard Lidge say after the Lofton triple, he was going for a strikeout.  His goal was not to allow the Dodgers to put the ball in play to drive home Lofton on a flyball or groundout.  So he kept throwing slider after slider in the dirt hoping they would chase.  They didn't.

Seems he was willing to risk the big inning, to keep the run from scoring on a hit/grounder/flyout.  

As the home team, I think the strategy was wrong.  Allowing Lofton to score is not the end of the world.  You gotta protect the downside risk.

Or am i just being a pussy?

Thoughts (on the strategy not whether or not I am a pussy)?

JD said that the runner on 3rd messed him up, he was throwing away from contact.  Pitching scared if you want to take it that far.  I think the real problem is that Jeff Kent can spot a Brad Lidge slider when he takes the sign from Ausmus.

I want no part of challenging Kent with a fastball.  

I think Lidge's comments reflect what JD was saying (which is why JD is a great analyst...he nailed exactly what was going on).  He didn't want to throw a slider anywhere near the hitting zone, bouncing it up there on purpose (even to a greater degree than he normally does).  

I haven't checked around the 'net, but did anyone report what Garner said to the troops when he visited the mound?

I got nothing on that.  Maybe whether to go home first on a grounder?

[JimR]

not making the slider appear good enough...yes, bouncing it well out in front of the plate.

i think he is overthrowing and flying open.

[jaklewein]

Quote:
the strategy was correct, imo, but he is not going to get a K from Drew or Kent if he bounces the slider. he has to make it appear hittable, and he did not.

i questioned a bunch of locations, but the only pitch i questioned was the third straight FB to Nomar.

Exactly, I thought the same damn thing.  Nomar was late on the previous two fastballs.  I thought for sure they'd give him a slider with Garciaparra gearing up once again for a fastball.  They didn't, and he did...but who the hell knows what would've happened had Lidge hit Ausmus' target on the outside corner.  Might've gotten anything from a popup to a sac fly to center, right-center.

[davek]

Since Lidge was unable to locate the slider, if he was going to throw a third fastball to Nomah would it have been better to go up out of the zone?... If Nomah was sitting fastball maybe he would have chased it up in the eyes?...

Kinda funny that no one has mentioned to Andy was having location problems yesterday too... But for all his trouble he only made the one bad mistake in 7 innings... Made me appreciate what an artist he is...

[JimR]

he was not able to locate the FB either. if i had my druthers and it was going to be a FB, low and away.

[homer]

What about the other pitches he has been working on (splitter, cutter)... should he have mixed in one of those last night?

[T. J.]

Never fear, Pinwheel has all the answers:   How to fix Brad Lidge

[JimR]

not in the water up to his eyes situation he was in.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
Never fear, Pinwheel has all the answers:   How to fix Brad Lidge

I actually agreed with everything after the first section.  (No, I don't know why I kept reading after the whole "it's the GM's job to get the coaches together to work on player problems" - no, that's the manager's job.)  God help me.

[homer]

Quote:
not in the water up to his eyes situation he was in.

The only reason I suggest it is that nothing else seemed to be working.

It seemed like when the water got up to his eyes, the strategy should have changed at that point to damage control.

Edit to add: Two seperate thoughts here. I am not saying that he should start trying new pitches while drowning.

Edit once more for additional clarity... The new pitches might have been helpful with Drew or Kent. Once the bases were loaded perhaps the strategy should have gone to damage control.

[davek]

Quote:

Quote:
Never fear, Pinwheel has all the answers:   How to fix Brad Lidge

I actually agreed with everything after the first section.  (No, I don't know why I kept reading after the whole "it's the GM's job to get the coaches together to work on player problems" - no, that's the manager's job.)  God help me.

How'd you make it past the first section?...

BTW, the TZ's own John P. has it all down pat this morning in his column too...

[astro pete]

Quote:
]
I actually agreed with everything after the first section.  (No, I don't know why I kept reading after the whole "it's the GM's job to get the coaches together to work on player problems" - no, that's the manager's job.)  God help me.

I liked how Justice instructed Lidge to stop making weak excuses, stop saying that the pitch wasn't all that bad.  Then I liked reading this:

 

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"Here and there, my location ... it's kind of tough to describe ? sometimes you pay for it; sometimes you don't," Lidge said. "Right now I'm just happening to go through a stretch where my location is not real good. I'm throwing some bad pitches, and they're hitting them, too."

The Link

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Thanks a whole fucking lot.  I'm now forced fight the urgue to gouge out my eyes after reading Dick(head) Justice's drivel.  What absolute horse shit.  Justice concludes he's somehow out in front of this problem, where as Purpura and Hickey are not.  
I wonder if maybe, just maybe, the Astros players and organization are treating him like the half-wit hack he is and this is his way of getting back at them.

[pravata]

Quote:
Thanks a whole fucking lot.  I'm now forced fight the urgue to gouge out my eyes after reading Dick(head) Justice's drivel.  What absolute horse shit.  Justice concludes he's somehow out in front of this problem, where as Purpura and Hickey are not.  
I wonder if maybe, just maybe, the Astros players and organization are treating him like the half-wit hack he is and this is his way of getting back at them.

It's exactly what it is.  He has no access and he's making up conversations and writing his vanity (audition) pieces (to fatten his portfolio) based on quotes gleaned from other writers at the Chron.  Here's a quote he didnt see

"Early, maybe I threw too many sliders and then to Nomar, I threw one too many fastballs.
The Link

Does that sound like excuses? Sounds like exactly what happened. But he didn't see or hear it because Alyson Footer got that quote and she does have access.