Pretty much at a loss for words here...

[strosrays]

 ...although I suppose it is good to find out my ability to be truly amazed is still intact.

 The link

As for Biggio, he comes in as the 10th greatest second basemen of all-time, even with his apparent defensive woes. Biggio?s figures are so poor defensively that Rogers Hornsby would no longer be the worst fielding second basemen in Cooperstown anymore. If he had simply been a league average fielder during his career, it is scary to think of where he might rank on this list...

[homer]

[email protected]

fire away.

[EasTexAstro]

I want to know who went back in time to measure the defensive performance of Eddie Collins.

..or did they just ask Jim?

[mihoba]

WARP and JAWS, lmao.

He forgot one stat, HEART.

[Limey]

Quote:
WARP and JAWS, lmao.

He forgot one stat, HEART.

When reading stuff like this, one should take into account some other metrics.  Such as:

Columnist Utterly Not Truthful

Tossers Without Any Talent

Failure to Understand Complete Knowledge, With Idiot Tendencies

[Arky Vaughan]

A problem when a writer gets into the alphabet soup is discerning whether he understands the metrics he's using. For example, a number of flaws have been raised regarding fielding runs above average (FRAA). Given the many things I've read about Rogers Hornsby's defense, as well as several other measures I've seen, I'd find it very hard to believe that Biggio has been a significantly worse defensive second baseman than Hornsby was. To accept this at face value, without any further investigation into what the formula measures, is shoddy anaylsis. Any exercise like this must discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the methods being used, in addition to the players to which those methods are applied.

[mihoba]

Or, the writer could just forget about the ignorant so-called defensive shortcomings and admit that if Biggio reaches 3000 hits, he will be a lock, period. Funny that he never mentioned Bidge changing positions several times.

Hornsby could have had an iron glove, no matter. He was the best RH hitter in history.

[toddthebod]

Until he got older, I never felt that Biggio was a below average second baseman.  Am I totally off base?

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Or, the writer could just forget about the ignorant so-called defensive shortcomings and admit that if Biggio reaches 3000 hits, he will be a lock, period. Funny that he never mentioned Bidge changing positions several times.

Hornsby could have had an iron glove, no matter. He was the best RH hitter in history.

I agree with you the the extent that he is making a case that has otherwise already been made.  I was talking more generally about his statistical comparisons, which were too conclusory.

[strosrays]

Quote:
Until he got older, I never felt that Biggio was a below average second baseman.  Am I totally off base?

No, I don't think you are.

This was my original thought... Forget all-time, I was never under the impression Biggio was even the worst defensive second baseman of his time... in his league ...in the division.

I don't entirely understand the metric this guy is using, but that's not the point.   While there have been some misgivings here and there regarding Biggio's defense (mostly as he aged, as you say, and IIRC especially after the knee injury in 2000) I have never heard and it has never occurred to me he was terrible.  

This article is the first place I have seen it.

[Astroholic]

I my opinion, and it is only that as we are talking about defense, Biggio was not even the worst 2b on his team when bluebonnet was roaming the pastures of minutemaid.

[CJM]

Has anybody noticed Biggio is throwing the ball much better this season?  When turning two his velocity on throws to first has improved a good bit over last year, IMO.

[CrawfordBoxes]

Quote:
Has anybody noticed Biggio is throwing the ball much better this season?  When turning two his velocity on throws to first has improved a good bit over last year, IMO.

For the most part you're right, his throwing has been good but other then that ground ball that went right under his glove he has fielded well. But when you see Burke play he is a lot better due to his tremendous range and arm. Burke can make plays deep in the whole behind second base and have enough on his throws to get people out.

[Desperado]

Whoa now, don't go calling Burke's arm 'tremendous.'

[homer]

 

Quote:
But when you see Burke play he is a lot better due to his tremendous range and arm. Burke can make plays deep in the whole behind second base and have enough on his throws to get people out.

He can also throw them into the dugout from there.

[CJM]

Quote:
...But when you see Burke play he is a lot better due to his tremendous range and arm. Burke can make plays deep in the whole behind second base and have enough on his throws to get people out.

Wow.  Tremendous range and arm?  Burke?  Have you not noticed how he seems to be in the middle of a battle between his upper body and feet?  He has a difficult time getting into good position to field the ball, and he looks somewhat awkward when making anything but routine throws.

[MikeyBoy]

Quote:
Wow.  Tremendous range and arm?  Burke?  Have you not noticed how he seems to be in the middle of a battle between his upper body and feet?  He has a difficult time getting into good position to field the ball, and he looks somewhat awkward when making anything but routine throws.

Great assessment of Burke's fielding at second base so far. Based on the way he flops around on the field trying to get to grounders at second base, I'm going to go out on a limb and say we won't see much of him at shortstop this year, or ever.

[JimR]

CrawfordBoxes now has zero credibility.

[homer]

Quote:
CrawfordBoxes now has zero credibility.

Just now? I think you are getting soft.

[VirtualBob]

Quote:

Quote:
...But when you see Burke play he is a lot better due to his tremendous range and arm. Burke can make plays deep in the whole behind second base and have enough on his throws to get people out.

Wow.  Tremendous range and arm?  Burke?  Have you not noticed how he seems to be in the middle of a battle between his upper body and feet?  He has a difficult time getting into good position to field the ball, and he looks somewhat awkward when making anything but routine throws.

LOL ... That's Burke!

[JJxvi]

4 GGs

[SoonerJim]

Quote:
Or, the writer could just forget about the ignorant so-called defensive shortcomings and admit that if Biggio reaches 3000 hits, he will be a lock, period. Funny that he never mentioned Bidge changing positions several times.

Hornsby could have had an iron glove, no matter. He was the best RH hitter in history.

I read somewhere Hornsby couldn't catch popups. Biggio excelled at three positions.

What putrid offal. One 2B got in the HOF because he was mentioned in a stupid poem, and he played in Chicago. Another piggybacked on the 27 Yankees.

 

[mihoba]

Quote:

Quote:
Or, the writer could just forget about the ignorant so-called defensive shortcomings and admit that if Biggio reaches 3000 hits, he will be a lock, period. Funny that he never mentioned Bidge changing positions several times.

Hornsby could have had an iron glove, no matter. He was the best RH hitter in history.

I read somewhere Hornsby couldn't catch popups. Biggio excelled at three positions.

What putrid offal. One 2B got in the HOF because he was mentioned in a stupid poem, and he played in Chicago. Another piggybacked on the 27 Yankees.

 

Ah yes, Tinker to Evers to Chance. You could say the same about the SS Tinker, too. Chance was legit however.

Tony Lazzeri was a good hitter, but he didn't play as long as most HOF'ers.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
Or, the writer could just forget about the ignorant so-called defensive shortcomings and admit that if Biggio reaches 3000 hits, he will be a lock, period. Funny that he never mentioned Bidge changing positions several times.

Hornsby could have had an iron glove, no matter. He was the best RH hitter in history.

I read somewhere Hornsby couldn't catch popups. Biggio excelled at three positions.

What putrid offal. One 2B got in the HOF because he was mentioned in a stupid poem, and he played in Chicago. Another piggybacked on the 27 Yankees.

 

Excelled isnt the right word.  Adequate at catcher, adequate to somewhat better but it was always mentioned he used to be a catcher, to having the range of a Myers Lemon Tree at 2nd (broke knee will do that) to able to catch a fly ball but hold your breath if he has to go to his right in center.

[homer]

 

Quote:
Excelled isnt the right word. Adequate at catcher, adequate to somewhat better but it was always mentioned he used to be a catcher, to having the range of a Myers Lemon Tree at 2nd (broke knee will do that) to able to catch a fly ball but hold your breath if he has to go to his right in center

Or make a throw from center.

[JimR]

wow, if you think Biggio "excelled" in the OF, i have some swampland to sell you.

[SoonerJim]

Quote:
wow, if you think Biggio "excelled" in the OF, i have some swampland to sell you.

If I'm pushing someone for the HOF, hyperbole is my most effective weapon.  

[JimR]

excellent