My World Is Shattered. Say It Ain't So, Barry.

[Alkie]

CNN reports Barry Bonds more machine than man now.

Me?  I'm shocked.

I hope this ends his career.  Also, I hope a wheatthresher falls on him.

[pravata]

The Link

Apparently more cow than man.  And, reporters now have to sign something for the privilege of mooing at him, The Link  If he's circulating a petition I bet he'd get more signatures for the opposing position.

[Alkie]

Did I miss something?  Was this already covered in here?  No one cares that the biggest (ha!) superstar of the last decade has been proven by multiple sources to have lied, under oath, and to us the general public about his rampant cheating?  

I mean, we all KNEW, but now we KNOW.  

Doesn't everyone else hate him as much as me?

[JimR]

no, i don't.

[Alkie]

Even now?

Even now that you know he's not even, technically, a human being anymore?  

He's a liar and a cheater of the highest order, and you're ok with that?

[Texifornia]

Quote:
The Link

Apparently more cow than man.  And, reporters now have to sign something for the privilege of mooing at him, The Link  If he's circulating a petition I bet he'd get more signatures for the opposing position.

It appears as though the ESPN article suggests some form of steroid use by Bonds. Who could have seen that coming?

[Alkie]

Shocked, I tell you.

What just blows me away is how long it took for someone to come forward with proof.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
Did I miss something?  Was this already covered in here?  No one cares that the biggest (ha!) superstar of the last decade has been proven by multiple sources to have lied, under oath, and to us the general public about his rampant cheating?  

I mean, we all KNEW, but now we KNOW.  

Doesn't everyone else hate him as much as me?

Gethefuckouttahere.

Next thing you know, they'll turn up evidence that OJ really did kill two people.

I don't hate him... but I hope and pray that Aaron's record does not fall to this man.

[JimR]

Bonds is one of the two greatest hitters that i have seen in my lifetime, the other one being Ted Williams. he is a liar, and his HR records are now as phony as are Sosa's and McGwire's, but steroids did not make him a great hitter.

i don't hate him for taking steroids any more than i hate a friend of mine who did to try to make MLB. they are killing themselves, and i feel sorry for that.

[Alkie]

Wait, you think OJ is guilty too?

You're just saying that because every fucking shred of evidence points to OJ using steroids since the 98 season.

[pravata]

Quote:
Even now?

Even now that you know he's not even, technically, a human being anymore?  

He's a liar and a cheater of the highest order, and you're ok with that?

IBB every single at bat.  He's deliberately taken himself outside of the Game.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Did I miss something?  Was this already covered in here?  No one cares that the biggest (ha!) superstar of the last decade has been proven by multiple sources to have lied, under oath, and to us the general public about his rampant cheating?  

I mean, we all KNEW, but now we KNOW.  

Doesn't everyone else hate him as much as me?

I think it was covered last year (or was it the year before?) when it was disclosed that Bonds testified to using the "clear" and the "cream" thinking that they were Flintstones vitamins or something like that.  Note the first three letters in the word "news."

[MusicMan]

Quote:

Quote:
Even now?

Even now that you know he's not even, technically, a human being anymore?  

He's a liar and a cheater of the highest order, and you're ok with that?

IBB every single at bat.  He's deliberately taken himself outside of the Game.

If only the commish still had the "best interests of the game" clause.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

While I have zero respect for Bonds and his accomplishments, I can't say I hate the guy either.  In fact I pity him like I pity anyone who becomes addicted to a substance as dangerous and detrimental to one's health as steroids are.  

Although, in response to Jim's comments about him being 1 of the 2 greatest hitters he's ever seen:  While I agree what he does with his at-bats, his approach, is amazing, I wonder if the power he gained thru this steroid use didn't elevate him from a good hitter to what he is now?  And by that, I mean, he still would have made contact but wouldn't some of those towering home runs been routine fly balls?  Or some of those smoked line drives been bloop singles or even ground ball outs?  Or, if he'd still be able to do what he does in his 40's like Williams' did (albeit with two sizeable interruptions to Williams' career)? It creates too many questions about what impact the drugs had on his performance to even compare him to someone like Williams, IMO.  

I don't mean to portray Williams or any other past player as a gold standard of athletic integrity.  I am pessimistic enough to believe that cheating has always been a part of baseball and will continue to be an issue.  However, the degree to which Bonds has taken it, in my mind, puts him up there with the Chicago Black Sox and Pete Rose.  And I do wonder if Bonds doesn't deserve a lifetime ban and any records removed from the record books if it's proved he's cheated for years.

[David in Jackson]

A few quick thoughts:

* Bonds was one of the best players in baseball, and probably a hall of famer, before he started taking steroids.

* I don't think erasing numbers or using astericks are appropriate.  Those homers counted, so they should stay in the book.

* If the Commissioner feels Bonds flagrantly broke the rules of baseball or the law then he should be banned from the game and excluded from the Hall of Fame.  I'm not to this point yet, but I may get there soon.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
* If the Commissioner feels Bonds flagrantly broke the rules of baseball or the law then he should be banned from the game and excluded from the Hall of Fame.  I'm not to this point yet, but I may get there soon.

My initial reading of the evidence tells me that it's no less persuasive than the Dowd Report.  OBviously there's a lot of reading left to do.

How's about this for irony... didn't Bonds resign from the MLBPA so that he could market his own license?  And wouldn't that now preclude MLBPA from appealing any suspension on his behalf?  Because if such an appeal did occur, under the current CBA, I don't see how a such a suspension could be upheld.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:

Quote:
* If the Commissioner feels Bonds flagrantly broke the rules of baseball or the law then he should be banned from the game and excluded from the Hall of Fame.  I'm not to this point yet, but I may get there soon.

My initial reading of the evidence tells me that it's no less persuasive than the Dowd Report.  OBviously there's a lot of reading left to do.

How's about this for irony... didn't Bonds resign from the MLBPA so that he could market his own license?  And wouldn't that now preclude MLBPA from appealing any suspension on his behalf?  Because if such an appeal did occur, under the current CBA, I don't see how a such a suspension could be upheld.

I don't think MLB would have a basis for a suspension absent a positive test.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
I don't think MLB would have a basis for a suspension absent a positive test.

Hence my "best interests of the game" comment.

If Bonds continues to play, the HR record will be considered a joke, and rightly so.

[pravata]

Quote:
While I have zero respect for Bonds and his accomplishments, I can't say I hate the guy either.  In fact I pity him like I pity anyone who becomes addicted to a substance as dangerous and detrimental to one's health as steroids are.  

Although, in response to Jim's comments about him being 1 of the 2 greatest hitters he's ever seen:  While I agree what he does with his at-bats, his approach, is amazing, I wonder if the power he gained thru this steroid use didn't elevate him from a good hitter to what he is now?  And by that, I mean, he still would have made contact but wouldn't some of those towering home runs been routine fly balls?  Or some of those smoked line drives been bloop singles or even ground ball outs?  Or, if he'd still be able to do what he does in his 40's like Williams' did (albeit with two sizeable interruptions to Williams' career)? It creates too many questions about what impact the drugs had on his performance to even compare him to someone like Williams, IMO.  

I don't mean to portray Williams or any other past player as a gold standard of athletic integrity.  I am pessimistic enough to believe that cheating has always been a part of baseball and will continue to be an issue.  However, the degree to which Bonds has taken it, in my mind, puts him up there with the Chicago Black Sox and Pete Rose.  And I do wonder if Bonds doesn't deserve a lifetime ban and any records removed from the record books if it's proved he's cheated for years.

I don't think there's any way to calculate how many fly balls were turned into homeruns.  Dancing on a pin there.  Here's something that might be interesting in regards his plate disclipline (from his "hometown" paper)

Bonds also complained of pain in his knee and back, leading Anderson to search for other drugs in 2000. Soon thereafter, Anderson put Bonds on Deca-Durabolin, the excerpt says, and later added human growth hormone (HGH). Bonds favored HGH, according to the excerpt, because it allowed him to stay muscle-bound and maintain his thirst to train while also feeling flexible. It also seemed to improve his eyesight.
The Link

as for motive, the article quotes the book,

"McGwire's historic season drove Bonds to wander into territory he had previously avoided, according to the excerpt.

"To Bonds it was a joke," one passage reads. "He had been around enough gyms to recognize that McGwire was a juicer. Bonds himself had never used anything more performance enhancing than a protein shake from the health-food store. But as the 1998 season unfolded, and as he watched Mark McGwire take over the game -- his game -- Barry Bonds decided that he, too, would begin using what he called 'the s -- .' "

[WulawHorn]

Barry Bonds won 3 mvp's naturally- I think that is beyond any doubt.  He could have never used a drop and been a hall of famer.  His peers, both hitters and pitchers, juiced and then he decided to do so.  

I think that with zero drugs in the game Bonds still goes down as the greatest player of his generation, but his numbers aren't what they are now (though neither is anyone's- pitcher or hitter).

Ruth played in a segregated game against inferior competition to what would have been available.  Bonds is in my all time top 10 positional players, regardless of juicing or not.  You have to compare him to his contemporaries, just as in the days of segregated baseball.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
If Bonds continues to play, the HR record will be considered a joke, and rightly so.

Just like with Palmeiro, nobody knows what Bonds might have done without steroids -- he probably would have hit 500 and maybe 600 home runs anyway -- but Bonds himself is the one who injected uncertainty into his legacy by what he did.  That is the ultimate punishment.

Every record represents not only a mere number, but the conditions that existed when the record was set. What would the records be if blacks had not been banned for six decades?  Or is steroids had been earnestly banned for the last decade?  Those are questions that will always have to be grappled with.

[pravata]

Quote:
Barry Bonds won 3 mvp's naturally- I think that is beyond any doubt.  He could have never used a drop and been a hall of famer.  His peers, both hitters and pitchers, juiced and then he decided to do so.  

I think that with zero drugs in the game Bonds still goes down as the greatest player of his generation, but his numbers aren't what they are now (though neither is anyone's- pitcher or hitter).

Ruth played in a segregated game against inferior competition to what would have been available.  Bonds is in my all time top 10 positional players, regardless of juicing or not.  You have to compare him to his contemporaries, just as in the days of segregated baseball.

I dont think much of cheaters.  And I think taking steroids etc is cheating.  We've had discussions about when drug supplements cross the line, for me, taking something intended for cows is it.  If you want to bring up others who cheated and single them out, I'm all for that too.  Round em up.  Never thought much of McGwire neither.  But, then again, historical records and the Hall hold absolutely no interest to me.

[JimR]

the history of baseball means very much to me, but the problem is that one simply cannot tell how many numbers he added.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
But, then again, historical records and the Hall hold absolutely no interest to me.

You and I see a lot of things differently in this regard, but I do agree with you that there is nothing sacred about records or even the Hall of Fame.  They are what they are, and trying to perfect them by putting an asterisk here or issuing a ban there is a waste of time.  People know what Bonds did, as does Bonds himself.  If there is a wrong here, it is not that he got a record that he did not deserve, it is that his team won games (and other teams lost games) because he cheated.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
the history of baseball means very much to me, but the problem is that one simply cannot tell how many numbers he added.

This is where I think Bud and company screwed up the most.  Baseball thrives on its history, and the owners let the players get away with something that, while drawing widespread interest at the time, has tarnished the game's history.

Not that the owners could necessarily have done something at the time.  I bet Don Fehr still refuses to believe there is a problem.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
If there is a wrong here, it is not that he got a record that he did not deserve, it is that his team won games (and other teams lost games) because he cheated.

Plenty of blame to go around on that one... MLB, MLBPA, law enforcement, and the public at large all chose to ignore the issue.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
I bet Don Fehr still refuses to believe there is a problem.

Fehr knew all along there was a problem.  He didn't give a damn.  It was nothing but a bargaining chip to him.

[pravata]

Quote:
the history of baseball means very much to me, but the problem is that one simply cannot tell how many numbers he added.

Me too, the history, I think the numbers can get in the way of the history.  In Bonds' case that's all he cares about and all that most of his detractors care about.  I think, as Arky writes below, the harm that is done is done to the competition in the game we're trying to watch on any given day. I was looking into the Buck O'Neil fiasco and found this essay by Bill James about how just caring about the records will cause you to miss the game. The Link

[WulawHorn]

See- I would argue Bonds place within history is the same with or without juice- the greatest player of his generation.

Interestingly enough, the shorthand on the strike through the last year or 2 is being given as the "steroid era." Bonds fits as the greatest player in this era.  The numbers are just details, and I too find them relatively uninteresting.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
See- I would argue Bonds place within history is the same with or without juice- the greatest player of his generation.

Bonds may be the greatest hitter, but Roger Clemens is the greatest player of his generation.

[WulawHorn]

two things:

1) when I say player I meant non-pitcher

2) Many would say the Rocket is a juicer as well...

[MusicMan]

Quote:
two things:

1) when I say player I meant non-pitcher

2) Many would say the Rocket is a juicer as well...

Many may say that, but there isn't anything close to the evidence that exists (and existed before today) against Bonds.

[astro pete]

Quote:

Quote:
two things:

1) when I say player I meant non-pitcher

2) Many would say the Rocket is a juicer as well...

Many may say that, but there isn't anything close to the evidence that exists (and existed before today) against Bonds.

Because there is no evidence of Clemens using.

[WulawHorn]

I'm not saying he did juice- just saying that the rumor is definately out there.  Remember around the all star break how the story was going to go down any minute now that Clemens was suspended?

Would it shock anyone here to find out Bagwell has juiced?  Would it shock anyone to find out Clemens did?   We know about only the tip of the iceberg with this entire generation of players.  That being said, it is ridiculous to try to figure out what number are legit and what are not.  How about all the middle relievers that throw 95 one year and 85 the next?  How does that affect hitters numbers?

You just do not know, so I cannot say at all, don't see how anyone else can either.  Bonds, like 10-75% of others in this generation depending on who you believe (union vs Cammy or Conseco) had chemical aid.  Without it he was still the best.  He is now the poster child for the steroid era as the greatest of his time.   Fitting I would say.

[astro pete]

Quote:
I'm not saying he did juice- just saying that the rumor is definately out there.  Remember around the all star break how the story was going to go down any minute now that Clemens was suspended?

Yeah, I also remember the stories about Clemens being traded back to the Yankees.  Different story, same bullshit.

[Dobro]

For the most part, Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams are clueless.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
I'm not saying he did juice- just saying that the rumor is definately out there.  Remember around the all star break how the story was going to go down any minute now that Clemens was suspended?

Would it shock anyone here to find out Bagwell has juiced?  Would it shock anyone to find out Clemens did?   We know about only the tip of the iceberg with this entire generation of players.  That being said, it is ridiculous to try to figure out what number are legit and what are not.  How about all the middle relievers that throw 95 one year and 85 the next?  How does that affect hitters numbers?

You just do not know, so I cannot say at all, don't see how anyone else can either.  Bonds, like 10-75% of others in this generation depending on who you believe (union vs Cammy or Conseco) had chemical aid.  Without it he was still the best.  He is now the poster child for the steroid era as the greatest of his time.   Fitting I would say.

Yeah, remember that rumor?  And remember how everyone was waiting for the other shoe to drop, and remember how it didn't happen?

I have no idea whether Clemens has or has not used steroids, but citing a famous rumor whose truth never materialized is pretty bad logic in support of your position.

[Limey]

Quote:
Did I miss something?  Was this already covered in here?  No one cares that the biggest (ha!) superstar of the last decade has been proven by multiple sources to have lied, under oath, and to us the general public about his rampant cheating?  

I mean, we all KNEW, but now we KNOW.  

Doesn't everyone else hate him as much as me?

I hate it.  But lying and cheating seems to be how things are run these days.

[Limey]

Quote:
Just like with Palmeiro, nobody knows what Bonds might have done without steroids -- he probably would have hit 500 and maybe 600 home runs anyway -- but Bonds himself is the one who injected uncertainty into his legacy by what he did.  That is the ultimate punishment.

Did he testrify to Congress?  Palmeiro got away with it because his positive test was after his stint under oath.  If they have positive proof of Barry's prior steroid usage, he could get Martha'd.

[Limey]

Quote:
Would it shock anyone here to find out Bagwell has juiced?

I used to be a true believer and adamant defender of Bagwell as a non-juicer.  His loss of bulk was down to his inability to train because of injury.  Now, he looks like Starvin' Marvin and my steadfastness is wavering.

[Bench]

Quote:

Quote:
Just like with Palmeiro, nobody knows what Bonds might have done without steroids -- he probably would have hit 500 and maybe 600 home runs anyway -- but Bonds himself is the one who injected uncertainty into his legacy by what he did.  That is the ultimate punishment.

Did he testrify to Congress?  Palmeiro got away with it because his positive test was after his stint under oath.  If they have positive proof of Barry's prior steroid usage, he could get Martha'd.

I don't think he testified to Congress, but he certainly did to a grand jury. Just think, he might be the first person in a long long time to actually be convicted of perjury.

[Limey]

Quote:
I don't think he testified to Congress, but he certainly did to a grand jury. Just think, he might be the first person in a long long time to actually be convicted of perjury.

Clinton was convicted of perjury.  He was fined and gave up his law license.

[astro pete]

Quote:

Quote:
I don't think he testified to Congress, but he certainly did to a grand jury. Just think, he might be the first person in a long long time to actually be convicted of perjury.

Clinton was convicted of perjury.  He was fined and gave up his law license.

Actually, Clinton wasn't convicted of perjury.  The fine and suspension of his license to practice law were part of his settlement.

Edit: The most recent high profile perjury conviction was 'lil Kim's, just in case you were wondering.

[Andyzipp]

Quote:


Would it shock anyone here to find out Bagwell has juiced?  

Allow me to hijack your thread.  Yes. Yes it would.  Because to this point there has been no proof, or even strong rumor that he was using.

His father has arthritic shoulders.  So does Bagwell...his have been made worse by playing baseball for most of his life.  The shoulder injury, and the fact that he looks "smaller" seems to be the things that anyone hinting Bagwell juiced harps on.

[WulawHorn]

Arky, pete et al who jumped me on the Clemens "Rumor"

I used the rumor over the all star break about Rocket as proof that many suspect, not that he in fact is, guilty of juicing.  Ironically enough, on my drive time home, Rich Lord said that many in baseball suspect Clemens of juicing, in reference to a caller that was defending Bonds late career numbers by pointing out Clemens late career numbers.

Also, I'm not saying bagwell juiced, I just would not be shocked to learn he did.  Hell, from what we have seen from the testing so far with relievers and speedy CFers NOBODY would really shock me if I found out they were juicing.

[Reuben]

Greg Maddux would be a little shocking. Tim Wakefield would be shocking. And yeah, I would be pretty shocked, and dismayed, if it was proven that Bagwell juiced. This may sound trite, but he just seems to me to have too much integrity.

Furthermore, forget about this crap of "oh, he must have been juicing, because he looks smaller now" - please, anyone who wants to could be juicing their brains out still on HGH. If they didn't care before, and knew they'd shrivel like a raisin if they went off roids, why not switch to HGH?

[Limey]

Quote:
Actually, Clinton wasn't convicted of perjury.  The fine and suspension of his license to practice law were part of his settlement.

He was impeached for failing to uphold his duties as President for, among other things, committing perjury and encouraging other to commit perjury on his behalf.  The penalty for his impeachment was the aforementioned fine and loss of license.

The violation cited on so-called "speeding tickets" is actually "unsafe operation of a vehicle".  Technically, I have never received a ticket for speeding in my entire life.  Technically, Clinton wasn't convicted of perjury.

[Phil_in_CS]

depends on what your definition if 'is' is....

[Limey]

Quote:
depends on what your definition if 'is' is....

Bingo!

[astro pete]

Quote:

He was impeached for failing to uphold his duties as President for, among other things, committing perjury and encouraging other to commit perjury on his behalf.  The penalty for his impeachment was the aforementioned fine and loss of license.

The violation cited on so-called "speeding tickets" is actually "unsafe operation of a vehicle".  Technically, I have never received a ticket for speeding in my entire life.  Technically, Clinton wasn't convicted of perjury.

Clinton was impeached by the House and acquitted on those charges by the Senate.  There was no "penalty" for his impeachment.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:

Quote:
Actually, Clinton wasn't convicted of perjury.  The fine and suspension of his license to practice law were part of his settlement.

He was impeached for failing to uphold his duties as President for, among other things, committing perjury and encouraging other to commit perjury on his behalf.  The penalty for his impeachment was the aforementioned fine and loss of license.

The violation cited on so-called "speeding tickets" is actually "unsafe operation of a vehicle".  Technically, I have never received a ticket for speeding in my entire life.  Technically, Clinton wasn't convicted of perjury.

The fine and suspension of his license had nothing to do with his impeachment, which was an act of the House of Representatives and has no legal bearing on what the Arkansas Supreme Court's Committee on Professional Conduct does.

"On Clinton's last full day as president, Jan. 19, 2001, he agreed to a five-year license suspension. The agreement came on the condition that Whitewater prosecutors would not pursue criminal charges against him after he lied under oath about his relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky.

"Clinton accepted the penalty under a deal with Special Prosecutor Robert Ray, a successor to Kenneth W. Starr. The panel voted to disbar Clinton for five years and impose a $250,000 fine. Clinton has paid the fine."

The Link

Clinton was never convicted of anything, by the Senate or by any court.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

While I can appreciate someone making the facts clear, how the hell did Clinton get brought into this?

[Limey]

Quote:
Clinton was never convicted of anything, by the Senate or by any court.

Thanks for the clarification.  Nixon, too, was never convicted of anything as a month after his resignation he was pardoned of anything and everything by Ford.

[Limey]

Quote:
While I can appreciate someone making the facts clear, how the hell did Clinton get brought into this?

My fault - I was inaccurately rebutting the "nobody get convicted of perjury" thing.  Should have gone with Martha Stewart who was not convicted of perjury either, but would've been less controversial.

[MusicMan]

IIRC, Chris Webber copped a plea on perjury charges.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
While I can appreciate someone making the facts clear, how the hell did Clinton get brought into this?

My fault - I was inaccurately rebutting the "nobody get convicted of perjury" thing.  Should have gone with Martha Stewart who was not convicted of perjury either, but would've been less controversial.

Not at all.  I love being reminded how serious and perplexed we all were that a guy would lie to avoid his wife knowing he was cheating on her.

[BizidyDizidy]

to a grand jury.

[strosrays]

Quote:
Furthermore, forget about this crap of "oh, he must have been juicing, because he looks smaller now" - please...

The inverse of this argument is that anyone who is bigger now than they used to be must be on steroids and/or HGH.  That's the one I have a problem with.

I'm bigger than I used to be, too, and I never took steroids or HGH.  The only 's-word' supplement that ever helped me bulk up was probably stroganoff.

And lots of it.

[pravata]

Quote:
to a grand jury.

To anybody.

[strosrays]

Quote:

Quote:
to a grand jury.

To anybody.

You know, there were people upset with him for accepting the offer of a free blow job, too.

What's up with that?

[Foghorn]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
to a grand jury.

To anybody.

You know, there were people upset with him for accepting the offer of a free blow job, too.

What's up with that?

...Whaddaya give for a blow job?

$10, same as downtown....

[MusicMan]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
to a grand jury.

To anybody.

You know, there were people upset with him for accepting the offer of a free blow job, too.

What's up with that?

Plus the people that were upset that he didn't have higher standards than Monica.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

Plus the people that were upset that he didn't have higher standards than Monica.

What's wrong with Monica?  Sure she's got a little meat on her bones, but she's far from being hideous.  In fact, she looks remarkably like my wife.  I'm not turning down free blowjobs from either of them.

[MusicMan]

It was purely tongue-in-cheek, but she does nothing for me.

[Andyzipp]

You also think Katie Couric is attractive, so there's no accounting for taste.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:
You also think Katie Couric is attractive, so there's no accounting for taste.

Hey, Katie is one hot li'l mama.  I like perky.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:
It was purely tongue-in-cheek, but she does nothing for me.

I guess my wife is safe from you too.

[MusicMan]

Quote:

Quote:
It was purely tongue-in-cheek, but she does nothing for me.

I guess my wife is safe from you too.

Yes, but is she safe from Clinton?

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
It was purely tongue-in-cheek, but she does nothing for me.

I guess my wife is safe from you too.

Yes, but is she safe from Clinton?

She's a good Aggie CPA, so I'd say so.  I'll have to keep my eye on Shrub though.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
It was purely tongue-in-cheek, but she does nothing for me.

I guess my wife is safe from you too.

Yes, but is she safe from Clinton?

She's a good Aggie CPA, so I'd say so.  I'll have to keep my eye on Shrub though.

Show him the business end of a pretzel, he'll back off.

[Andyzipp]

Quote:

Quote:
It was purely tongue-in-cheek, but she does nothing for me.

I guess my wife is safe from you too.

Depends on whose tounge and which cheek.

[Andyzipp]

She looks like The Joker raped a muppet.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
She looks like The Joker raped a muppet.

This might be the most horrible description I've ever seen.

[Andyzipp]

Unfortunately, it's exactly what comes to mind when I see Katie Couric.

[MusicMan]

I suggest you never watch NBC again.  Nothing is worth that mental image.

[NeilT]

Katie Couric has an American Studies degree.   I gotta be with HH on this.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:
She looks like The Joker raped a muppet.

Man, it's uncool to talk about a fella's wife that way.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:
Unfortunately, it's exactly what comes to mind when I see Katie Couric.

You probably don't like Rachel Ray either, so what do you know.

[Andyzipp]

Rachel Ray = teh hot.

Hell, I'm even with ya about Patricia Heaton.

But Couric...ugh.

[SoonerJim]

Quote:
Bonds is one of the two greatest hitters that i have seen in my lifetime, the other one being Ted Williams. he is a liar, and his HR records are now as phony as are Sosa's and McGwire's, but steroids did not make him a great hitter.

i don't hate him for taking steroids any more than i hate a friend of mine who did to try to make MLB. they are killing themselves, and i feel sorry for that.

To elaborate on the above, there was no steroid policy  until 2002. Baseball cannot even rid themselves from 60+ years of amphetamine abuse.

Steroids increase strength and promote healing. These are "bad" things? Would baseball be a better on the field product had Bonds retired at the typical age of 35? Players today are in shape year around, and have medical and nutrition advances unknown to players of yore. An ACL once laid you up all year. Now its a two month layoff, and you come back stronger.

Regarding the ease of hitting HRs, Bill James references a change in strike zone reading in favor of the batter. Pitchers are more loath to challenge hitters, making the encounter a sort of batting practice. Homes runs sell, and everyone in baseball knows it.

Most of the top HR-hitting players have had the benefit of short porches to launch home runs. I have no idea whether an incremental steroid-fueled distance increase makes 100-200 home runs possible. Most of the new ballparks are homer-friendly, as reasoned above for marketing purposes. Has anyone reasearched this? Do a home-road breakdown, and correlate with the HR distance and field dimensions.

Bonds' record should be judged on its own merits, and in any event, will last only as long as Alex Rodriquez decides to keep playing.

We had a similar hitting-rich era in the early 1930s, and now the players from that period are not accorded the same level of respect in baseball all-time great evaluations. So it will be in the 1995-2004 decade. Terry, Ott, Traynor, Averill, and Wilson have their modern counterparts in Sosa, Anderson, Palmiero, McGwire, and Bonds.

Just enjoy Bonds' peculiar obsession. He may have in the end the greatest number of HRs, but we all know that the greatest RB is either Brown or Sanders, and the greatest scorer in basketball is Chamberlain or Jordan. Sometimes the top person really isn't.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
We had a similar hitting-rich era in the early 1930s, and now the players from that period are not accorded the same level of respect in baseball all-time great evaluations. So it will be in the 1995-2004 decade. Terry, Ott, Traynor, Averill, and Wilson have their modern counterparts in Sosa, Anderson, Palmiero, McGwire, and Bonds.

Mel Ott was in a different class from Bill Terry, Pie Traynor, Earl Averill and Hack Wilson.  Ott would have been a bona fide Hall of Famer in any era.  And say what you will about any of those guys, but there is no evidence to suggest they cheated to get where they did.  The conditions of their time favored offense, but not because of what they were doing to their bodies individually.

[UpTooLate]

Quote:

To elaborate on the above, there was no steroid policy  until 2002. Baseball cannot even rid themselves from 60+ years of amphetamine abuse.

Steroids increase strength and promote healing. These are "bad" things? Would baseball be a better on the field product had Bonds retired at the typical age of 35? Players today are in shape year around, and have medical and nutrition advances unknown to players of yore. An ACL once laid you up all year. Now its a two month layoff, and you come back stronger.

Regarding the ease of hitting HRs, Bill James references a change in strike zone reading in favor of the batter. Pitchers are more loath to challenge hitters, making the encounter a sort of batting practice. Homes runs sell, and everyone in baseball knows it.

If I understand your post correctly then you are saying that as long as the results are good, it doesn't matter how you achieved them?  To me that is fine if your sport is pro wrestling or some other spectacle where the spectator knows that it is a farce.  But baseball?  I don't want my kid growing up thinking that for him to be successful at a sport, then he must put himself in harms way just to be competitive.  I'm no expert on roids but from what I've heard, when properly admistered for appropriate medical conditions then they are a useful tool.  But I never hear anything but the dangers when used for bodybuilding and sports applications.  My opinion is that when players think they have to put themselves in harms way physically just to play on an even field, then the sport is a farce, regardless how many homeruns a juiced up freakazoid can hit.

[SoonerJim]

Quote:

Quote:

To elaborate on the above, there was no steroid policy  until 2002. Baseball cannot even rid themselves from 60+ years of amphetamine abuse.

Steroids increase strength and promote healing. These are "bad" things? Would baseball be a better on the field product had Bonds retired at the typical age of 35? Players today are in shape year around, and have medical and nutrition advances unknown to players of yore. An ACL once laid you up all year. Now its a two month layoff, and you come back stronger.

Regarding the ease of hitting HRs, Bill James references a change in strike zone reading in favor of the batter. Pitchers are more loath to challenge hitters, making the encounter a sort of batting practice. Homes runs sell, and everyone in baseball knows it.

If I understand your post correctly then you are saying that as long as the results are good, it doesn't matter how you achieved them?  To me that is fine if your sport is pro wrestling or some other spectacle where the spectator knows that it is a farce.  But baseball?  I don't want my kid growing up thinking that for him to be successful at a sport, then he must put himself in harms way just to be competitive.  I'm no expert on roids but from what I've heard, when properly admistered for appropriate medical conditions then they are a useful tool.  But I never hear anything but the dangers when used for bodybuilding and sports applications.  My opinion is that when players think they have to put themselves in harms way physically just to play on an even field, then the sport is a farce, regardless how many homeruns a juiced up freakazoid can hit.

What you have effectively is a giant uncontrolled experiment occurring nationwide at all levels of sport, but the dosing and types of enhancement drugs represent a vast improvement over the cruder agents employed by eastern bloc Olympians and extending into the NFL in the 1970s. It may not be medically sanctioned, but this field is achieving a level of sophistication which may render some of the early anecdotal horror stories moot. What separates these actions from previous perturbations affecting baseball (ie, the color line, WWII, 1930s offensive explosion, DH, 1960s pitching)is that steroid use crosses the line of individual initiative and thereby puts others at a competitive disadvantage. Again, until 2002, this was all legal. The objection seems based more on the latter point of competitive initiative and can only be supported on that basis.

I agree that Mel Ott would be HOF material in any era, but his and other offensice statistics of the 1930s were all inflated, and thus diminished in relative terms. Street and Smith's current yearly preview issue addresses this directly, ranking Bonds seventh all-time behind Ruth, Aaron, Foxx, Mays, Gehrig, and Ott in peer-adjusted home run totals. That is the proper and only way to rank these players. It negates the extraneous factors given above.

[Phil_in_CS]

And in just in case this wasn't complicated enough,  Willie McCovey is playing the race card.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

To elaborate on the above, there was no steroid policy  until 2002. Baseball cannot even rid themselves from 60+ years of amphetamine abuse.

Just to be clear here...anabolic steroids, just like every other controlled substance, were banned from baseball long before 2002.  Baseball started getting hammered on the issue in 2002, and started defining specific punishments for use, but there is this false notion going around that steroids were legal in baseball until the last couple of years, and that is simply not the case.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
Rachel Ray = teh hot.

Hell, I'm even with ya about Patricia Heaton.
 

Agreed on both counts.  Watching Patricia's progression from the start of ELR's run to the end... amazing.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
Steroids increase strength and promote healing. These are "bad" things? Would baseball be a better on the field product had Bonds retired at the typical age of 35? Players today are in shape year around, and have medical and nutrition advances unknown to players of yore. An ACL once laid you up all year. Now its a two month layoff, and you come back stronger.

Why am I not surprised that a Sooner is endorsing cheating?

[headhunter]

Lots of players take steriods and can't play at Bonds level. I don't hate Bonds for taking steriods. I hate him for wearing the wrong unifom.

If it comes out that Bagwell took them I am not going to turn on him. He and Biggio may be the first astros in the hall of fame and they have earned it. Put the astrix by the era, not by the players.

 If the league doesn't enforce the rule then I am not going to blame a player who doesn't follow a rule that others flagrantly ignore.

I think the league should adopt a cruel and merciless policy that will strip people of their job, records and money for cheating and actually enforce it. Until that happens I am not going to think less of a player--they are paid to play at the highest level possible. And its the players and their families who pay the price of the league looking the other way. And the price is horrible, I think of what happened to Caminiti. And How many high school and college kids fuck themselves up dreaming of playing in the pros?

[Alkie]

Theft is also illegal, not to mention immoral.  

So, when people start setting up websites that sell faulty merchandise and steal money from innocent people, but these folks aren't caught because there really isn't a readily available way to track down and stop these crooks, then you're ok with it.

Makes perfect sense.  Anything that is illegal and immoral is actually ok as long as the suspect isn't actively stopped.  Right-o.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Lots of players take steriods and can't play at Bonds level. I don't hate Bonds for taking steriods. I hate him for wearing the wrong unifom.

If it comes out that Bagwell took them I am not going to turn on him. He and Biggio may be the first astros in the hall of fame and they have earned it. Put the astrix by the era, not by the players.

 If the league doesn't enforce the rule then I am not going to blame a player who doesn't follow a rule that others flagrantly ignore.

I think the league should adopt a cruel and merciless policy that will strip people of their job, records and money for cheating and actually enforce it. Until that happens I am not going to think less of a player--they are paid to play at the highest level possible. And its the players and their families who pay the price of the league looking the other way. And the price is horrible, I think of what happened to Caminiti. And How many high school and college kids fuck themselves up dreaming of playing in the pros?

In other words, it's OK to do something wrong unless somebody else takes drastic steps to punish him for it?

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
What you have effectively is a giant uncontrolled experiment occurring nationwide at all levels of sport, but the dosing and types of enhancement drugs represent a vast improvement over the cruder agents employed by eastern bloc Olympians and extending into the NFL in the 1970s. It may not be medically sanctioned, but this field is achieving a level of sophistication which may render some of the early anecdotal horror stories moot. What separates these actions from previous perturbations affecting baseball (ie, the color line, WWII, 1930s offensive explosion, DH, 1960s pitching)is that steroid use crosses the line of individual initiative and thereby puts others at a competitive disadvantage. Again, until 2002, this was all legal. The objection seems based more on the latter point of competitive initiative and can only be supported on that basis.

I disagree that objections to steroid use in baseball can only be supported on the basis of competitive disadvantage, but I think competitive disadvantage is the chief reason that makes steroid use different from other forms of cheating.  If you cork a bat or scuff a ball, that's also cheating, but other players don't have to risk their health and life in order to neutralize it.

Quote:
I agree that Mel Ott would be HOF material in any era, but his and other offensice statistics of the 1930s were all inflated, and thus diminished in relative terms. Street and Smith's current yearly preview issue addresses this directly, ranking Bonds seventh all-time behind Ruth, Aaron, Foxx, Mays, Gehrig, and Ott in peer-adjusted home run totals. That is the proper and only way to rank these players. It negates the extraneous factors given above.

How can peer-adjusted home run totals take into account steroids when not everyone uses them?  An era adjustment to statistics only works when the advantages and disadvantages of the era apply to everyone.

For example, the National League as a whole batted .303 in 1930.  The batting leaders, and the percentage by which they exceeded the league batting average, were as follows:

Player      Avg  +Pct
---------------------
Terry      .401  +32%
Herman     .393  +30%
Klein      .386  +27%
O'Doul     .383  +26%
Lindstrom  .379  +25%

Now take the 2002 National League, which batted .259 as a whole.  The league leaders, again with percentages over the league average, were as follows:

Player      Avg  +Pct
---------------------
Bonds      .370  +43%
Walker     .338  +31%
Guerrero   .336  +30%
Helton     .329  +27%
Jones      .327  +26%

Now, tell me how that era adjustment takes into account that the guy at the top of that list had his bat speed remarkably raised (and now it's speculated even his eyesight improved) by taking steroids?

[SoonerJim]

Quote:

Quote:
What you have effectively is a giant uncontrolled experiment occurring nationwide at all levels of sport, but the dosing and types of enhancement drugs represent a vast improvement over the cruder agents employed by eastern bloc Olympians and extending into the NFL in the 1970s. It may not be medically sanctioned, but this field is achieving a level of sophistication which may render some of the early anecdotal horror stories moot. What separates these actions from previous perturbations affecting baseball (ie, the color line, WWII, 1930s offensive explosion, DH, 1960s pitching)is that steroid use crosses the line of individual initiative and thereby puts others at a competitive disadvantage. Again, until 2002, this was all legal. The objection seems based more on the latter point of competitive initiative and can only be supported on that basis.

I disagree that objections to steroid use in baseball can only be supported on the basis of competitive disadvantage, but I think competitive disadvantage is the chief reason that makes steroid use different from other forms of cheating.  If you cork a bat or scuff a ball, that's also cheating, but other players don't have to risk their health and life in order to neutralize it.

Quote:
I agree that Mel Ott would be HOF material in any era, but his and other offensice statistics of the 1930s were all inflated, and thus diminished in relative terms. Street and Smith's current yearly preview issue addresses this directly, ranking Bonds seventh all-time behind Ruth, Aaron, Foxx, Mays, Gehrig, and Ott in peer-adjusted home run totals. That is the proper and only way to rank these players. It negates the extraneous factors given above.

How can peer-adjusted home run totals take into account steroids when not everyone uses them?  An era adjustment to statistics only works when the advantages and disadvantages of the era apply to everyone.

For example, the National League as a whole batted .303 in 1930.  The batting leaders, and the percentage by which they exceeded the league batting average, were as follows:

Player      Avg  +Pct
---------------------
Terry      .401  +32%
Herman     .393  +30%
Klein      .386  +27%
O'Doul     .383  +26%
Lindstrom  .379  +25%

Now take the 2002 National League, which batted .259 as a whole.  The league leaders, again with percentages over the league average, were as follows:

Player      Avg  +Pct
---------------------
Bonds      .370  +43%
Walker     .338  +31%
Guerrero   .336  +30%
Helton     .329  +27%
Jones      .327  +26%

Now, tell me how that era adjustment takes into account that the guy at the top of that list had his bat speed remarkably raised (and now it's speculated even his eyesight improved) by taking steroids?

These are interesting and provocative points. Bonds is getting away with using these agents not because the punishments are lenient or non-existent; rather, his actions sell the game. It was the home run derby of 1998 which wiped away the memory of 1994's strike, much as Babe Ruth's transition to everyday status removed the stain of the Black Sox scandal. If steroids are to blame for that, then perhaps we should follow Canseco's advice to incorporate it into the training regimen and give the people what they want. The media, political opportunists, and what baseball purists are left can disagree, but they are a minority. Owners and players know what makes the highlight reel, and steroids are the elixer for a game reeling from self-inflicted wounds.

None of us has the ability to discern the steroid users in the current age, so tweaking the broader statistics to further separate the "cheaters" from the rest seems improbable and imparts unsupported bias. One cannot cherrypick data to support a hypothesis, so all of the players need to be combined into the reference population.

I grant that anabolic steroids have been illegal for some time, but the lack of enforcement is a failure of management, not the individual violators. No one is forcing East Germany to return gold medals because investigations finally proved the obvious. We turn a blind eye when it's our own. Life is full of surprises that way, and we may not want to know for our own sense of security and emotional nostalgia.

Honus Wagner alone among marquee players engaged in weight and strength training, eschewed alcohol, tobacco, and female debauchery, and had a shortstop rating margin between him and the number two guy greater than than that between #2 and #10 on Bill James' all-time list. Unfair advantage? They're all doing offseason fitness now, including Bonds. Bonds and his bulked-up cohorts may simply be showing a new path to career longevity, and without the fundamental dishonesty of the DH. At 42, Mays was roaming aimlessly in the Mets outfield, and Ruth staggered in pain around the bases. What, pray tell, is the crime?

[MusicMan]

Quote:
What, pray tell, is the crime?

How about  THIS , for starters?

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

I grant that anabolic steroids have been illegal for some time, but the lack of enforcement is a failure of management, not the individual violators.

So you're OK with committing crimes if the law enforcement is weak in that area?  I'm not sure which is worse, the fact that you think with the logic of a 6-year old, or that you are apparently completely morally bankrupt.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
These are interesting and provocative points. Bonds is getting away with using these agents not because the punishments are lenient or non-existent; rather, his actions sell the game. It was the home run derby of 1998 which wiped away the memory of 1994's strike, much as Babe Ruth's transition to everyday status removed the stain of the Black Sox scandal. If steroids are to blame for that, then perhaps we should follow Canseco's advice to incorporate it into the training regimen and give the people what they want. The media, political opportunists, and what baseball purists are left can disagree, but they are a minority. Owners and players know what makes the highlight reel, and steroids are the elixer for a game reeling from self-inflicted wounds.

None of us has the ability to discern the steroid users in the current age, so tweaking the broader statistics to further separate the "cheaters" from the rest seems improbable and imparts unsupported bias. One cannot cherrypick data to support a hypothesis, so all of the players need to be combined into the reference population.

I grant that anabolic steroids have been illegal for some time, but the lack of enforcement is a failure of management, not the individual violators. No one is forcing East Germany to return gold medals because investigations finally proved the obvious. We turn a blind eye when it's our own. Life is full of surprises that way, and we may not want to know for our own sense of security and emotional nostalgia.

Honus Wagner alone among marquee players engaged in weight and strength training, eschewed alcohol, tobacco, and female debauchery, and had a shortstop rating margin between him and the number two guy greater than than that between #2 and #10 on Bill James' all-time list. Unfair advantage? They're all doing offseason fitness now, including Bonds. Bonds and his bulked-up cohorts may simply be showing a new path to career longevity, and without the fundamental dishonesty of the DH. At 42, Mays was roaming aimlessly in the Mets outfield, and Ruth staggered in pain around the bases. What, pray tell, is the crime?

While I agree with you that the owners share part of the blame for steroid use by not getting tough on the players, I reject completely your insinuation that the individual is not responsible for the crime just because the authorities did not act zeolously to punish it. I also find it ironic that you claim (figuratively, I hope) that the designated hitter is fundamentally dishonest while rhetorically asking what the crime is with steroid use. You still refuse the address the fact that the competitive advantage enjoyed by Bonds and other steroid-users could only be offset by other players willing to break the law and endanger their health and lives. Can you not see that this is several degrees different from Honus Wagner choosing to train and abstain from alcohol and tobacco?

[SoonerJim]

Quote:

Quote:

I grant that anabolic steroids have been illegal for some time, but the lack of enforcement is a failure of management, not the individual violators.

So you're OK with committing crimes if the law enforcement is weak in that area?  I'm not sure which is worse, the fact that you think with the logic of a 6-year old, or that you are apparently completely morally bankrupt.

If that's the case, then "moral bankruptcy" is endemic. I'm explaining possible motives, and if one wants to extend the War on Drugs to the playing field, then let's do it seriously. Have a drug testing program on the scale of the Olympics, and fine, imprison, or ban at will. Just don't be surprised who falls into the net. The owners and Players' Association do not want this, and they run the game. Whether they ruin it is another matter.

The six year old logic you cite is more characteristic of those who simply want the problem to disappear if we can just hoist Bonds up on the steriods petard as an example to the rest of those who still care about MLB. Most players will continue to do what enhances and prolongs their careers. The technology is way in front of the law on this count. Bonds, for all the hew and cry, has always tested negative. So did Gaylord Perry, a career-long cheater. Was he morally bankrupt, or extremely clever?

There has never been a period of "purity" in baseball. Every record set before the color line precluded a host of talented players from participation. The reserve clause indentured all players from 1881 through 1975. The DH allows players unable to run to remain active, a process affecting half of MLB from 1973. Steroids have been a factor for the past decade, and at worst generates monster home runs and keeps players around longer. Health risks incurred are of consequence only to the player and his family, and no studies have assessed the aggregate results of administration of these agents to a mass population with a control group. One cannot use mood swings and isolated anecdotal deaths to enact policy.

[HudsonHawk]

Quote:

If that's the case, then "moral bankruptcy" is endemic.

That makes zero sense, but OK.

Quote:

 I'm explaining possible motives,

Sounds to me like you're absovling the criminals from blame, instead placing it squarely on the lack of enforcement.  

Quote:

don't be surprised who falls into the net.

I don't think anyone would be.

Quote:

The six year old logic you cite is more characteristic of those who simply want the problem to disappear if we can just hoist Bonds up on the steriods petard as an example to the rest of those who still care about MLB.

Huh?  Who ever said the problem would disappear by hanging Bonds?  People are saying the ultimate responsibility lies with those committing the crimes, not those charged with trying to enforce the laws.  The 6-year old logic is you espousing that criminals should be absolved of their crimes simply because they were able to get away with it.

Quote:

Bonds, for all the hew and cry, has always tested negative.

Bonds has admitted using illegal steroids.  I'm not sure what your point is here.

Quote:

So did Gaylord Perry, a career-long cheater. Was he morally bankrupt, or extremely clever?

Morally bankrupt.  Is this even a question for you?

Quote:

There has never been a period of "purity" in baseball.

No one ever claimed there was.  But just because there was a color barrier many years ago doesn't mean that baseball shouldn't try to clean up steroid abuse now.  I'm not even sure how you make that connection.

Quote:

The DH allows players unable to run to remain active, a process affecting half of MLB from 1973.

This may be the single most ridiculous thing ever posted on this board.  Are you actually equating DHing with criminal drug use?

[MusicMan]

Quote:
Steroids have been a factor for the past decade, and at worst generates monster home runs and keeps players around longer. Health risks incurred are of consequence only to the player and his family

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Tell the high school kid that is convinced he has to roid up to make the majors that the health risks are "of consequence only to the player and his family."

I won't even get started on your innate inability to differentiate between players breaking the law and players playing as a DH.

Do you really believe the shit you're shoveling?

[pravata]

Quote:
don't be surprised who falls into the net.

I like this part, why care that Bonds is a documented and admitted cheat, liar, and criminal, cause we don't know who else might have been squirting cow crack into his butt cheeks.  We'll put this on hold until the next person has their personal trainer convicted and a two year study of their drug addiction published.

[BizidyDizidy]

Has anyone ever seen SoonerJim and Dobro in the same room?

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
I like this part, why care that Bonds is a documented and admitted cheat, liar, and criminal, cause we don't know who else might have been squirting cow crack into his butt cheeks.  We'll put this on hold until the next person has their personal trainer convicted and a two year study of their drug addiction published.

It is interesting, in fact, that the only reason this came to light was because the person distributing the stuff to Bonds, Giambi, et al. was criminally prosecuted.  It kind of pokes a hole in the argument that there's nothing wrong with it when somebody gets convicted for abetting it.  If it was nobody's business but Bonds and his family, then why was a grand jury convened to talk about it?

[Gizzmonic]

I think his point is that both steroids and the DH allow older players to stick around and compile stats in ways that were not available to players in the past. Makes sense to me, but since his argument dares to go against conventional wisdom about steroids, you skip his point and go right for his throat.  Real mature.

Quote:

Quote:
Steroids have been a factor for the past decade, and at worst generates monster home runs and keeps players around longer. Health risks incurred are of consequence only to the player and his family

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Tell the high school kid that is convinced he has to roid up to make the majors that the health risks are "of consequence only to the player and his family."

I won't even get started on your innate inability to differentiate between players breaking the law and players playing as a DH.

Do you really believe the shit you're shoveling?

[MusicMan]

Quote:
I think his point is that both steroids and the DH allow older players to stick around and compile stats in ways that were not available to players in the past. Makes sense to me, but since his argument dares to go against conventional wisdom about steroids, you skip his point and go right for his throat.  Real mature.

OK, since both of you seem completely unable to comprehend this, I will spell it out slowly.

The DH was a change to the rules of baseball.  I personally find it a silly rule, but it is a rule that is on the books.  This rule does not violates any laws of the United States of America, at least not of which I am aware.

The use of anabolic steroids without a doctor's prescription is, and has been for some time, illegal in the US.  The fact that MLB did not have testing in place for this makes it no less of a crime.

The use of anabolic steroids, for any reason, has been prohibited in MLB for over a decade.  The lack of testing does not change the fact that it is against the rules of the game.  To use his Gaylord Perry analogy, a player doctoring the ball without being inspected by the umpire is still cheating.

His argument doesn't go against "conventional wisdom".  It goes against "functional intelligence".

Which part of this, exactly, is unclear?

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
I think his point is that both steroids and the DH allow older players to stick around and compile stats in ways that were not available to players in the past. Makes sense to me, but since his argument dares to go against conventional wisdom about steroids, you skip his point and go right for his throat.  Real mature.

But that point is not fine enough.

The category here is not "advantages that are available to modern players that were unavailable to past players."  It is "advantages available to players who are willing to risk their health and lives and break the law, thereby requiring their competitors to do the same to neutralize that advantage."

That seems like a pretty easy distinction to make.

If using steroids were no more dangerous to a player's health or life and no more unlawful than stepping into the batter's box four times a night without ever having to take the field, then maybe the comparison holds.  But the comparison does not hold.

[Limey]

Quote:
She looks like The Joker raped a muppet.

Corona...meet keyboard.

[JackAstro]

Quote:
Steroids have been a factor for the past decade, and at worst generates monster home runs and keeps players around longer.

It seems like I've seen a few references now to steroids allowing players to extend their careers, and at least one reference to advances in science having lead to the reduction in health risks. Do you have any examples of this, apart from the fact that Bonds is old? Notwithstanding that fact that he's been a walking knee injury for the better part of two years?

It seems to me that there were plenty of players who had very productive years in their late 30's prior to the introduction of steroids to the game. And when I look at the landscape of some of the more infamously alleged users - McGwire, Piazza, Giambi, Boone, Sosa - it's all guys whose bodies or abilities  completely gave out on them in their mid- to late-30's. It's taken getting Giambi off the juice for him to eventually get his career back on track. And health risks? The man sprouted a pituitary tumor for fuck's sake - why don't you ask him if he thinks they've ironed all of the wrinkles out of the dosing regimen?

Seriously, morality aside, I just don't see how your basic argument holds any water. You've got your poster children for steroid use blowing out knees and falling apart long before that magical 40th birthday. McGwire was 35 his last healthy season. Sosa imploded before 36. And it goes on like that. Players like Randy Johnson and Biggio just keep right on producing, and they certainly don't fit the drugged-up superhuman mold. So who are these giant, engineered mashers devoid of health problems who play into their twilight years, exactly?

[The Third Man]

What is this "the owners let the players get away" with taking steroids stuff? If you don't think the owners knew *exactly* what the players were doing  then you must have missed several thousand "chicks dig the longball" commercials Major League Baseball put out in the late 90's. If the owners were so fucking serious about the steroid problem then they wouldn't have to have Congress pull them by the short hairs to get them to address the issue.


I think the tragedy of the steroid era is that a player like Bonds felt he had to go there in the first place. Think of the pressure that put on borderline players who never had a real sniff of the big leagues, but juiced up anyway to see if they could get over the top.  Bonds and the Cansecos and McQwires of the world can look after the health when their playing days are over, but a lot of former players are fucked.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
I think the tragedy of the steroid era is that a player like Bonds felt he had to go there in the first place.  

I could give two shits what professionals did.  If you want to talk tragedy, look at the kids who have died b/c they thought they had to juice to make it to the bigs.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
What is this "the owners let the players get away" with taking steroids stuff? If you don't think the owners knew *exactly* what the players were doing  then you must have missed several thousand "chicks dig the longball" commercials Major League Baseball put out in the late 90's. If the owners were so fucking serious about the steroid problem then they wouldn't have to have Congress pull them by the short hairs to get them to address the issue.

How does my statement that the owners let them get away with it in any way imply that the owners were not pleased with the results?

[MikeyBoy]

Quote:
give two shits  

Completely off topic, but this is one of my favorite sayings...I attempt to use it daily.

Carry on.