little league moral question

[NeilT]

No, it has nothing to do with the brewers.  This is something important.  

This year I'm my son's team's official scorekeeper, and I thought it would be great fun to actually keep statistics for pitching and offense.  Offense is not a problem (except that unless it's pretty blatant and it breaks up a no hitter errors are largely ignored).  But when I got to ERA, I realized that the games are limited to 7 innings.  Because they're time-limited to one hour 50 minutes, effectively they don't go past 5 innings.  So in calculating ERA, it seems to me I should use 5 as the multiple, not 9.

Is this just wrong?

[Greg M]

Are the kids going to see these stats?  If you do the ERA over 5 innings rather than the traditional 9, their numbers are going to look pretty inflated.  Would that hurt those little egos so badly that they'd need a beer?

[Suma Dortsa]

I don't think you need to adjust anything. Continue to use 9 innings. It doesn't matter that he *usually* only throws 5 innings per game. Most MLB closers only throw one inning per game, but their ERA is still calc'd on 9 innings.

Just my opinion.

[NeilT]

Actually, i think it goes the other way.  If a kid pitches 1 inning, and he gives up 1 earned run, if it's based on 9 innings the ERA is 9, if 5, 5.  

I don't think the kid will care, it's the father who will need the beer.  He'll probably have it anyway.

[Greg M]

You're right.  Damn karma.  That's what I get for snickering at this girl today who couldn't do ratios.

[Texifornia]

Quote:
You're right.  Damn karma.  That's what I get for snickering at this girl today who couldn't do ratios.

I think ratio discrimination is wrong.

[HurricaneDavid]

Little League games are 7 innings now?  When I played they were 6 innings, and that's what my Dad calculated ERA based on.

[drew corleone]

Quote:
Little League games are 7 innings now?  When I played they were 6 innings, and that's what my Dad calculated ERA based on.

I think at the HS level they calculate it on 7 innings. At least everyone in our district did.

[David in Jackson]

Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with the brewers.  This is something important.  

This year I'm my son's team's official scorekeeper, and I thought it would be great fun to actually keep statistics for pitching and offense.  Offense is not a problem (except that unless it's pretty blatant and it breaks up a no hitter errors are largely ignored).  But when I got to ERA, I realized that the games are limited to 7 innings.  Because they're time-limited to one hour 50 minutes, effectively they don't go past 5 innings.  So in calculating ERA, it seems to me I should use 5 as the multiple, not 9.

Is this just wrong?

In my kids' soccer leagues (they are too young for baseball and insulted by t-ball) we don't even KEEP SCORE, much less keep stats.  I'd be careful here, depending on their ages.

[strosrays]

I asked this question of my LL son, and he said, "If five turns out to be nine, I don't mind, I don't mind."

[Kit]

Thats a beauty there stros rays

now

excuse me while I kiss the sky

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with the brewers.  This is something important.  

This year I'm my son's team's official scorekeeper, and I thought it would be great fun to actually keep statistics for pitching and offense.  Offense is not a problem (except that unless it's pretty blatant and it breaks up a no hitter errors are largely ignored).  But when I got to ERA, I realized that the games are limited to 7 innings.  Because they're time-limited to one hour 50 minutes, effectively they don't go past 5 innings.  So in calculating ERA, it seems to me I should use 5 as the multiple, not 9.

Is this just wrong?

Is *THIS* the moral dilema?  I am coaching little league (actually coach pitch) for the first time this year.  I've been an assistant coach for many years, but this year they gave me a team to coach.  Talk about moral dilema!  I can't decide if teaching the kids about the value of cups is necessary at this stage.

I say yea, what say the TZ?  If yes, would it be bad to line up two kids and have one with a cup and one without and then show tangible evidence of the need by tossing the ball at said cup and cupless players to teach them the value?

[OldBlevins]

Quote:

Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with the brewers.  This is something important.  

This year I'm my son's team's official scorekeeper, and I thought it would be great fun to actually keep statistics for pitching and offense.  Offense is not a problem (except that unless it's pretty blatant and it breaks up a no hitter errors are largely ignored).  But when I got to ERA, I realized that the games are limited to 7 innings.  Because they're time-limited to one hour 50 minutes, effectively they don't go past 5 innings.  So in calculating ERA, it seems to me I should use 5 as the multiple, not 9.

Is this just wrong?

Is *THIS* the moral dilema?  I am coaching little league (actually coach pitch) for the first time this year.  I've been an assistant coach for many years, but this year they gave me a team to coach.  Talk about moral dilema!  I can't decide if teaching the kids about the value of cups is necessary at this stage.

I say yea, what say the TZ?  If yes, would it be bad to line up two kids and have one with a cup and one without and then show tangible evidence of the need by tossing the ball at said cup and cupless players to teach them the value?

The moral thing to do is this:  Have one kid with a cup and you without one.  Then illustrate the value of having one.

[mihoba]

Quote:

I say yea, what say the TZ?  

I say yeah, too. Gotta protect the 'boys'

[Andyzipp]

You could tell them the story that one of my LL coaches told me.

About a guy he "knew" who played at Rice without a cup.  Took a foul tip off the plate into the sack.

When he woke up, the sack was empty, the nuts were lodged in his intestines and the guy answers to Susan now.

I was 7 the first time I heard this story.  I was 17 the last time I heard it.  It made an impression.  Mainly that coaches are frickin' liars.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:

Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with the brewers.  This is something important.  

This year I'm my son's team's official scorekeeper, and I thought it would be great fun to actually keep statistics for pitching and offense.  Offense is not a problem (except that unless it's pretty blatant and it breaks up a no hitter errors are largely ignored).  But when I got to ERA, I realized that the games are limited to 7 innings.  Because they're time-limited to one hour 50 minutes, effectively they don't go past 5 innings.  So in calculating ERA, it seems to me I should use 5 as the multiple, not 9.

Is this just wrong?

Is *THIS* the moral dilema?  I am coaching little league (actually coach pitch) for the first time this year.  I've been an assistant coach for many years, but this year they gave me a team to coach.  Talk about moral dilema!  I can't decide if teaching the kids about the value of cups is necessary at this stage.

I say yea, what say the TZ?  If yes, would it be bad to line up two kids and have one with a cup and one without and then show tangible evidence of the need by tossing the ball at said cup and cupless players to teach them the value?

Tell them it's a cool piece of body armor.

[NeilT]

Lets see, this is a juniors program, kinda like pony league, so 13-14 year olds in 7th and 8th grade.  I'm thinking based on high schools using 7, I'll use 6.  Theoretically they could play 7 innings, they never get there.

On the cups, my son and I were discussing this last night.

"Do you have your cup?"
"Yessir.  Next thing you know they'll be making us wear mouth guards."  He didn't actually say yessir, but I would have liked it if he had.

This is where I didn't say you would miss your teeth less.  Just keep telling them you're going to do cup checks with a bat.  You don't have to actually do it.  

I'm now convinced, by the way, that the only training for cup-wear that actually works is lacrosse goalie.  He never forgets his cup for that.

[NeilT]

no one actually insisted on cups in my experience until you had catchers catching machine pitch.  Only in the first couple of years of kid pitch did anyone insist on cups that I remember.

[astro pete]

Quote:
Lets see, this is a juniors program, kinda like pony league, so 13-14 year olds in 7th and 8th grade.  I'm thinking based on high schools using 7, I'll use 6.  Theoretically they could play 7 innings, they never get there.

On the cups, my son and I were discussing this last night.

"Do you have your cup?"
"Yessir.  Next thing you know they'll be making us wear mouth guards."  He didn't actually say yessir, but I would have liked it if he had.

This is where I didn't say you would miss your teeth less.  Just keep telling them you're going to do cup checks with a bat.  You don't have to actually do it.  

I'm now convinced, by the way, that the only training for cup-wear that actually works is lacrosse goalie.  He never forgets his cup for that.

You ought to calculate the ERA based on the length of the game: 7 innings.  A major leaguer's ERA is calculated on a 9 inning scale, even though a pitcher rarely pitches all nine innings.  Further, the 9 inning scale is still used in games that last fewer than 9 innings or games that go into extra innings.

I hope a 13 or 14 year old can handle the fact that his ERA isn't exactly Roger Clemens-esque.

[NeilT]

Well, besides the games never reaching 7, the pitchers are actually limited to 6.  I figure it's a toss up, and once it's in a spreadsheet I can change it from day to day.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
The moral thing to do is this:  Have one kid with a cup and you without one.  Then illustrate the value of having one.

I've decided it is important to teach (even though there are girls on the team... it is necessary).  So I'm going to line up all the kids with cups on.  Then I'm going to line up their parental unit and/or significant caretaker on the other side without cups.  I will put a ball in the hands of the parental units and have them toss gently at the cup area.

I will then put a ball in the hands of each kid and tell them to throw it as hard as they can at the parent's gonad area (regardless of age, sex, race, creed or religious belief).

Should be fun and also my last day of coaching.

[astro pete]

Quote:
Well, besides the games never reaching 7, the pitchers are actually limited to 6.  I figure it's a toss up, and once it's in a spreadsheet I can change it from day to day.

Since batting average is the only stat anyone cares about anyways, I suppose it doesn't matter what you decide to do with ERA.

[EasTexAstro]

I seem to remember a stary from way back where Little League had a rule requiring catchers to wear cups. One team had a girl catcher, cupless, that got ejected from a game when the opposing coach brought the rule to the attention of the umpire.

I don't remember how it was resolved, or if the rule even exists anymore.

[David in Jackson]

Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with the brewers.  This is something important.  

This year I'm my son's team's official scorekeeper, and I thought it would be great fun to actually keep statistics for pitching and offense.  Offense is not a problem (except that unless it's pretty blatant and it breaks up a no hitter errors are largely ignored).  But when I got to ERA, I realized that the games are limited to 7 innings.  Because they're time-limited to one hour 50 minutes, effectively they don't go past 5 innings.  So in calculating ERA, it seems to me I should use 5 as the multiple, not 9.

Is this just wrong?

This week in the TZ suggests: Don't keep defensive statistics.

[strosrays]

Quote:
Is *THIS* the moral dilema?  I am coaching little league (actually coach pitch) for the first time this year.  I've been an assistant coach for many years, but this year they gave me a team to coach.  Talk about moral dilema!  I can't decide if teaching the kids about the value of cups is necessary at this stage.

I say yea, what say the TZ?  If yes, would it be bad to line up two kids and have one with a cup and one without and then show tangible evidence of the need by tossing the ball at said cup and cupless players to teach them the value?

Noe, I'm not a doctor (though I'll play one, in the right situation), but at what age do one's testicles (nuts, cojo?es, stones, etc.) descend?  

I'm thinking 9 or 10, but that is just guessing.  Anyway, a cup before then is about as useful as it would be on a girl.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:
Is *THIS* the moral dilema?  I am coaching little league (actually coach pitch) for the first time this year.  I've been an assistant coach for many years, but this year they gave me a team to coach.  Talk about moral dilema!  I can't decide if teaching the kids about the value of cups is necessary at this stage.

I say yea, what say the TZ?  If yes, would it be bad to line up two kids and have one with a cup and one without and then show tangible evidence of the need by tossing the ball at said cup and cupless players to teach them the value?

Noe, I'm not a doctor (though I'll play one, in the right situation), but at what age do one's testicles (nuts, cojo?es, stones, etc.) descend?  

I'm thinking 9 or 10, but that is just guessing.  Anyway, a cup before then is about as useful as it would be on a girl.

Start'em early, that is what I always say!  Still, the adults getting whacked in the cajones would serve as a testimonial.

[JaneDoe]

As the mother of 4 boys, the testicles should descend before birth. The pediatrician always checks when they are born.

Undescended testes exists in 3% of full-term newborn males and in 30% of premature newborn males.  Most undescended testes descend spontaneously (ouch!?!) without treatment by age 1.


Funny story about LL cup usage:

Before the games in our league, the umpire always asks the catcher if he has his cup on.  Then, to prove it he asks them to tap it, usually by saying, "Show me."  Well, this kid was 8 and had not played catcher before, so standing behind home plate, he just reached down in his pants and pulled it out.  The umpired almost lost it before he said, "Uhhhh....OK, thanks."  The parents were laughing so hard they almost fell out of the stands.

[Craig]

Quote:
Undescended testes exists in 3% of full-term newborn males and in 30% of premature newborn males.  Most undescended testes descend spontaneously (ouch!?!) without treatment by age 1.

And of course if the testes never descend, the man-child goes on to play catcher for the Cubs.

[NeilT]

Quote:

Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with the brewers.  This is something important.  

This year I'm my son's team's official scorekeeper, and I thought it would be great fun to actually keep statistics for pitching and offense.  Offense is not a problem (except that unless it's pretty blatant and it breaks up a no hitter errors are largely ignored).  But when I got to ERA, I realized that the games are limited to 7 innings.  Because they're time-limited to one hour 50 minutes, effectively they don't go past 5 innings.  So in calculating ERA, it seems to me I should use 5 as the multiple, not 9.

Is this just wrong?

This week in the TZ suggests: Don't keep defensive statistics.

I did not think it would be fun to keep defensive statistics.

[strosrays]

Quote:
As the mother of 4 boys, the testicles should descend before birth. The pediatrician always checks when they are born.

Undescended testes exists in 3% of full-term newborn males and in 30% of premature newborn males.  Most undescended testes descend spontaneously (ouch!?!) without treatment by age 1.


Funny story about LL cup usage:

Before the games in our league, the umpire always asks the catcher if he has his cup on.  Then, to prove it he asks them to tap it, usually by saying, "Show me."  Well, this kid was 8 and had not played catcher before, so standing behind home plate, he just reached down in his pants and pulled it out.  The umpired almost lost it before he said, "Uhhhh....OK, thanks."  The parents were laughing so hard they almost fell out of the stands.

Thanks for the info on testicles.  As the father of two boys, I suppose I should have known this.

Re: cups, my only hope is that with the use of modern ergonomic engineering and space-age aircraft polymers, they have made those things more user friendly than I remember them being.  I was a catcher off-and-on for several years and was required to wear one (sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't), and I never could find one that wasn't completely resistant to ventilation, and/or that did not pinch (painfully, I'll add) around the edges.

The gnarliest cup/no cup story I have -- in HS, playing in a pre-district tournament on a Saturday morning.  I'm playing 3B, it's a sacrifice situation, and the opposing batter (right-handed) squares around real early, so I charge way in.  Our pitcher was really good - he was later drafted by the Reds, I think - but his 90 MPH heater was not always on target.  I'm about 10 feet from this guy attempting to bunt when the pitch comes in - straight fastball - and hits him square in the nuts.  I don't think he was wearing a cup, either, because the sound was more like a wet sandbag hitting the ground than a baseball off hard plastic.  The guy keeled over and started moaning, and I think had to be carried off.  But the thing I'll remember is the look on his face, as he was going down.  I was pretty close to him, as I said, and I'll never forget that look.  Animal pain.

[NeilT]

I do not think that would be fun, either.

[Cecil_Stud_Cantrell]

If you're using a spreadsheet, why not make the number adjust as you go along?

If you normally use the formula: Earned Runs / 9

Just make the formula:

Earned Runs / ( total innnings played / # of games )

[NeilT]

The formula for major leagues is ER*9/IP.  I think the "9" has to be some kind of constant:  changing it seems ok, but for the number to have any meaning it has always has to relate back to that constant number.  I think.

[JimR]

that you are agonizing over this is absurd.

[NeilT]

So what?  That I'm posting about baseball on a message board is absurd.  But I'm not agonizing, only thought it was an amusing question.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
that you are agonizing over this is absurd.

How would anyone know when they needed to trade a player from their LL fanstasy roster then?

[Andyzipp]

If you're putting it into a spread sheet, why not do it all 3 ways (6,7, & 9) and use what looks best when you're done?

[NeilT]

Quote:

Quote:
that you are agonizing over this is absurd.

How would anyone know when they needed to trade a player from their LL fanstasy roster then?

Now that was worth the price of this thread.

[homer]

Quote:
If you're putting it into a spread sheet, why not do it all 3 ways (6,7, & 9) and use what looks best when you're done?

ERA done Enron style.

[NeilT]

Well, 6 will always look best.

[MusicMan]

Quote:

Quote:
Undescended testes exists in 3% of full-term newborn males and in 30% of premature newborn males.  Most undescended testes descend spontaneously (ouch!?!) without treatment by age 1.

And of course if the testes never descend, the man-child goes on to play catcher for the Cubs.

Dammit, I was reading the full thread and thought *exactly* this when we got to undescended testes.  Pity you beat me to it.