Author Topic: Rondell White  (Read 22317 times)

strobum

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Rondell White
« on: December 18, 2005, 09:09:39 am »
Since it looks like Rondell just moved to the top of the 'Stros list, here is Stats Inc.'s take, via ESPN:

 His throwing arm probably is the weakest of any major league outfielder in recent memory. Opposing teams run on his arm at will.

  The Link

ASTROCREEP

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2005, 11:04:57 am »
nice
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ASTROCREEP

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2005, 11:15:40 am »
Purpura is fucking useless.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2005, 12:20:39 pm »
i'd be interested to see (over the past 2 seasons) the team transactions as far as free agent (not their own players) signings and trades. i'll take a wild guess and say the astros are near the bottom of the list.

pup is a risk-taker in a sense by not making a dumb trade and relying on rookies, but you have to admit he is a bit gun shy.

i wonder how drayton is going to market season ticket sales???  "we are a champion....even though we didn't offer arbitration to rajah, bolster our offense, or grab a legit starter in the off-season."

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2005, 12:25:38 pm »
Quote:

he is a bit gun shy.




When?


Quote:

i wonder how drayton is going to market season ticket sales???  "we are a champion....even though we didn't offer arbitration to rajah, bolster our offense, or grab a legit starter in the off-season."




The off-season isn't over yet.  And, if you haven't noticed mlb experienced starting pitchers are ridiculously expensive.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2005, 12:37:40 pm »
White would be a useful pinch-hitter. If we expect him to play the field everyday, we're in big trouble.

The Hot Stove is far from cool. Purp will do something. I hope.

Plus, there will be a flood of new semi-inexpensive FA's available after Tuesday's non-tender deadline.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2005, 12:51:02 pm »
So you're bashing Purpura for not going out and making the team better, but when he addresses a need (adding a bat) he becomes "fucking useless"?  Is it not obvious from using Burke, Lamb, Biggio, Berkman, etc. in left that excellent defense is not required for the position?

Sounds like you're looking for a reason to hate him, regardless of the circumstance.

He puts together a team that makes it to the World Series for the first time ever, and less than two months later he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.  Pretty amazing.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2005, 12:54:52 pm »

He puts together a team that makes it to the World Series for the first time ever, and less than two months later he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.  Pretty amazing.




This was Hunsickers team. He has done NOTHING to improve it.
I have given him credit in the past for not having a fire sale after 15-30.

If EVER a WS team's GM deserved LESS credit, it would be him.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2005, 02:02:04 pm »
Quote:


He puts together a team that makes it to the World Series for the first time ever, and less than two months later he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.  Pretty amazing.





This was Hunsickers team. He has done NOTHING to improve it.
I have given him credit in the past for not having a fire sale after 15-30.

If EVER a WS team's GM deserved LESS credit, it would be him.




I agree Hunsicker gets some credit for the team that went to the WS, but don't for a minute think that Purpura didn't help build that team.  You should check to see what role Purpura played prior to being named GM of the National League Champion Houston Astros.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 02:37:59 pm »
Let's just hope Pup's got one up his sleeve.

And it's NOT something he is doing (or not doing) that has prevented the Astros from improving the team.

Hunsicker spoiled me.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 02:41:49 pm »
It should be mentioned again, however, that MMP doesn't exactly require a cannon out of the left-fielder. I understand there are some exceptions to this, like there are to everything, but for the most part the damage of having a poor arm can be minimized by the park. As bad as White's arm is, I can't imagine it's much worse than Chris Burke's, and the Astros were able to play him in left for a large part of last season.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2005, 02:45:07 pm »
The Astros play 81 games on the road.

A runner going from first to third on a hit to left, on a regular bases, would really hurt.
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Dobro

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2005, 02:45:54 pm »
Quote:

As bad as White's arm is, I can't imagine it's much worse than Chris Burke's, and the Astros were able to play him in left for a large part of last season.




Chris Burke exhibited a great arm last year in LF.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2005, 02:48:03 pm »
Quote:

Let's just hope Pup's got one up his sleeve.

And it's NOT something he is doing (or not doing) that has prevented the Astros from improving the team.

Hunsicker spoiled me.





I think it's much too soon in Pupura's career as a GM to judge him yet. True, he hasn't made any blockbuster moves, but there really haven't been many to make. The trade market at last season's deadline was far from engrossing, and this year's free agents have been equally underwhelming. I think he'll need to eventually make some big moves to prove himself, but I don't think that time has necessarily come. If anything, I give him a lot of credit for not making a bad move simply for the sake of making a move.

Bottom line: the offseason isn't over yet, and even if no big moves are made before the season starts, I think you'd really have to wait another year or so before accurately judging him as a GM.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2005, 03:56:49 pm »
I believe White would be a good option for a 4th outfielder provided that he is not too expensive.  We all know that Bagwell will be given every opportunity to play first base and Berkman will be in left and is next in line for first base.

White is so injury prone and is a big defensive liability but has a good bat when healthy.  In a limited role, I believe he could excel here.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2005, 04:13:30 pm »
Quote:

It should be mentioned again, however, that MMP doesn't exactly require a cannon out of the left-fielder. I understand there are some exceptions to this, like there are to everything, but for the most part the damage of having a poor arm can be minimized by the park. As bad as White's arm is, I can't imagine it's much worse than Chris Burke's, and the Astros were able to play him in left for a large part of last season.




And in 2004 we had an even worse arm out there. Remember Pujols tagging up going to 3rd on a fairly routine flyball to LF?

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2005, 04:55:14 pm »
Quote:

I think he'll need to eventually make some big moves to prove himself,...




No.  He proves himself by how many winning teams he puts on the field not the number or perceived quality of moves he makes.  Right now he stands at 1 winning team and 0 losing teams.
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MikeyBoy

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2005, 08:58:36 am »
Quote:

Quote:

As bad as White's arm is, I can't imagine it's much worse than Chris Burke's, and the Astros were able to play him in left for a large part of last season.




Chris Burke exhibited a great arm last year in LF.





I'm not sure if this was meant as sarcasm, but while Burke showed a better arm than White, Podsenik, Lofton, Damon, etc., it was far from great. Adequate, would be more accurate.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2005, 10:32:46 am »
Quote:

Quote:

I think he'll need to eventually make some big moves to prove himself,...




No.  He proves himself by how many winning teams he puts on the field not the number or perceived quality of moves he makes.  Right now he stands at 1 winning team and 0 losing teams.





First of all, that depends on how you define a "winning team". If it's by winning championships, as many people would define it, then he has none. If it's almost anything else, then you would be right.

Second of all, the job of a GM is to build a winning team, not to "execute" the actual winning on the field; that is the job of the players and coaches. I think it's safe to say that in this age in order to build a "winning team" (especially one that consistently wins, which could also be part of the GM job description), a few big moves should be made.

Notice that in my original post, I did not say that he would prove himself by his big moves. Rather, he would need to make some big moves to prove himself. i.e. He would need to make some big moves in order to build a winning team, thereby proving himself as a GM. I'm apologize for resorting to semantics, which I generally consider unproductive in discussions, but I think this more accurately represents what I meant than how you may have interpretted it.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2005, 10:55:21 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think he'll need to eventually make some big moves to prove himself,...




No.  He proves himself by how many winning teams he puts on the field not the number or perceived quality of moves he makes.  Right now he stands at 1 winning team and 0 losing teams.




First of all, that depends on how you define a "winning team". If it's by winning championships, as many people would define it, then he has none. If it's almost anything else, then you would be right.

Second of all, the job of a GM is to build a winning team, not to "execute" the actual winning on the field; that is the job of the players and coaches. I think it's safe to say that in this age in order to build a "winning team" (especially one that consistently wins, which could also be part of the GM job description), a few big moves should be made.

Notice that in my original post, I did not say that he would prove himself by his big moves. Rather, he would need to make some big moves to prove himself. i.e. He would need to make some big moves in order to build a winning team, thereby proving himself as a GM. I'm apologize for resorting to semantics, which I generally consider unproductive in discussions, but I think this more accurately represents what I meant than how you may have interpretted it.




This was pin-wheel-esque!  I've read it, re-read it and still haven't a clue what your point is.  Is it obvious I'm not in the 3% club?

And I define winning as winning more than you lose.  If you can make year to year improvement, you are a bad-ass (or at least, that's how I would define it, were I wanting to define what I meant???).
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2005, 11:07:34 am »
Quote:


....This was Hunsickers team.....





Not particularly.  Hunsicker was notoriously adverse to playing young players.  An outfield of Lane, Taveras, and Burke (etc) would have been very unlikely with Hunsicker.  Also, it was Purpura's input that got Astacio included in the Wagner trade.  Qualls was Purpura's call.  Having Clemens on the team, and Kent off the team had more to do with the presence, in the first case, and the absence, in the second case, of Drayton Mclane.  Pettitte, Lidge,
Ausmus, and Everett are probably the players on this team who most exemplify Hunsicker's strategies.  He had to compromise several times in how he put his teams together.

In addition, the team philosophy for last season was not to trade for any player that would be a one season rental.  This restricted Purpura's options and may have been a reaction to the Hunsicker trades of the past.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2005, 11:14:37 am »
Quote:

This was Hunsickers team. He has done NOTHING to improve it.
I have given him credit in the past for not having a fire sale after 15-30.

If EVER a WS team's GM deserved LESS credit, it would be him.




He built the minor league system.  The Astros have had some players come through that system.  You may have heard of some of them:

Roy Oswalt
Lance Berkman
Morgan Ensberg
Adam Everett
Will Taveras
Jason Lane
Brad Lidge

It could be argued that this is more Pupura's team than Hunsicker's.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2005, 11:26:08 am »
Quote:

Quote:

It should be mentioned again, however, that MMP doesn't exactly require a cannon out of the left-fielder. I understand there are some exceptions to this, like there are to everything, but for the most part the damage of having a poor arm can be minimized by the park. As bad as White's arm is, I can't imagine it's much worse than Chris Burke's, and the Astros were able to play him in left for a large part of last season.




And in 2004 we had an even worse arm out there. Remember Pujols tagging up going to 3rd on a fairly routine flyball to LF?





We keep bringing this up.  Lets recap.  Biggio was playing left, he hadn't played there but a few games and was obviously having trouble judging flies.  His sole concern was to catch the ball.  He wasn't even trying to get into position to throw after the catch.  Pujols, and the Cardinals dugout, saw this and took advantage.  Biggio never had an outfield arm, but even in center in had assists.  The problem on that play was not having a professional outfielder.  The problem with White will be runners scoring from second.  However, if he gets the ball to the cutoff man, Everett, quickly enough, they could have a chance.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2005, 11:42:36 am »
I'm trying to decide what's more ridiculous:

(1) people obsessing about defense in left field; or

(2) people attacking a general manager after his first season, in which his team won the pennant.

I think I'll go with (2), but it's a close call.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2005, 01:03:04 pm »
Quote:

I'm trying to decide what's more ridiculous:

(1) people obsessing about defense in left field; or

(2) people attacking a general manager after his first season, in which his team won the pennant.

I think I'll go with (2), but it's a close call.




You could've added a #3: people obsessing about hitting by the shortstop / catcher, but I still think #2 would win out.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2005, 01:16:01 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I'm trying to decide what's more ridiculous:

(1) people obsessing about defense in left field; or

(2) people attacking a general manager after his first season, in which his team won the pennant.

I think I'll go with (2), but it's a close call.




You could've added a #3: people obsessing about hitting by the shortstop / catcher, but I still think #2 would win out.





Point #3 is one thing I didn't look forward to with the possible signing of Nomar. No matter how many times Purpura stated the interest in Nomar was for LF, the proponents of #3 would call for him to replace AE from day 1 of ST, there might have even been an article written by someone on that very subject.
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NeilT

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2005, 01:56:56 pm »
You know, it's perfectly likely, and not too bad a thing, that the Astros sign no one this winter.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2005, 02:10:47 pm »
Quote:

You know, it's perfectly likely, and not too bad a thing, that the Astros sign no one this winter.




If that's the case, Purpura had better acquire someone via trade unless he wants to get run out of town.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2005, 02:22:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

You know, it's perfectly likely, and not too bad a thing, that the Astros sign no one this winter.




If that's the case, Purpura had better acquire someone via trade unless he wants to get run out of town.





By who?  Bunch of witless yutzes yammerin on talk radio shows that no one cares about otherwise the Astros would've traded Everett and Clemens and "cut" Bagwell a long time ago?  This is exactly the kind of stupid the Talk Zone is designed to take out.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2005, 02:27:35 pm »
Quote:



By who?  Bunch of witless yutzes yammerin on talk radio shows that no one cares about otherwise the Astros would've traded Everett and Clemens and "cut" Bagwell a long time ago?  This is exactly the kind of stupid the Talk Zone is designed to take out.





Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2005, 02:30:43 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



By who?  Bunch of witless yutzes yammerin on talk radio shows that no one cares about otherwise the Astros would've traded Everett and Clemens and "cut" Bagwell a long time ago?  This is exactly the kind of stupid the Talk Zone is designed to take out.





Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.





What reaction?  Where?

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2005, 02:47:28 pm »
Quote:



Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.





I just don't understand why there are some on here that are as pissed as they are we didn't sign Nomar.  The chances of him sitting on the DL next year are far greater than him reverting back to his late 90's early 2000's form IMO.  We don't need to pay a guy $6 mil to do that.  Seems to me to be a smarter buy to get White in the $2-$3 mil range and if he's shelved this season as well, so be it.  I'd rather band-aid the problem this winter and go after a real solution next winter instead.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2005, 03:18:21 pm »
Quote:

I'd rather band-aid the problem this winter and go after a real solution next winter instead.




What on earth makes you think the Astros will go after a "real" solution next winter?  They could have band-aid'd the problem last winter with Burnitz but everyone around here was boycotting him.  He woulda been nice.

Don't think for a second that simply because money will be available that it'll be spent next winter.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2005, 03:26:42 pm »
Quote:


What on earth makes you think the Astros will go after a "real" solution next winter?





Well probably the fact that when there *are* star FAs available, the Astros have made a run at a few and signed a few.  This year there isn't much to write home about.

Quote:


Don't think for a second that simply because money will be available that it'll be spent next winter.





Why not?  They've done it before?  What on earth makes you think that they *won't* spend available money when quality FAs are available next year?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2005, 03:34:09 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

You know, it's perfectly likely, and not too bad a thing, that the Astros sign no one this winter.




If that's the case, Purpura had better acquire someone via trade unless he wants to get run out of town.





I think that puts him in a tough position.  If the Astros really like Burke--and I think they do--then they want him to play in left, or a combination of left and ss and center and 2d.  Once you get to that point, it's hard to figure out where they make changes.  Assuming that Bagwell can't play or only gets limited play, my guess is that starting next spring we'll see a combination of Burke and Hobbs in left.  If Bagwell can play, where do you put someone else?  They may pick up White as a back up, but that's what he'll be.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2005, 03:42:54 pm »
Quote:

Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.




I will be absolutely furious if April rolls around and the Astros expect White to take Clemens' place in the starting rotation.  That has disaster written all over it.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2005, 03:44:37 pm »
Quote:

Why not?  They've done it before?  What on earth makes you think that they *won't* spend available money when quality FAs are available next year?




The question seems to surround the decision of which FAs are "quality" FAs.  I happen to be very pleased Houston retained Palmeiro and Lamb, both Astros FAs.  As for the rest of the FA crowd, and I may be alone in this conclusion, I don't see very many quality FAs this year.  Next season is an entirely different situation.  The potential FA market is loaded with quality bats.  I haven't looked at the FA pitching but Houston has had a very successful stream of minor leaguers have moderate to solid success at the major league level.  

So, truly, this is not the best offseason to invest in a FAs as they are commanding salaries greater than their true value and, compounding the problem, are better leveraged to command longer deals.  When is the last year, that you recall, where players got anything longer than a 3 yr deal?  That's a hard number, 3 yrs, because that's the length of a contract that can be insured, IIRC.  Anything beyond that either can't be insured or the premium to insure deals longer than 3 yrs is cost prohibitive.  That puts an even larger financial burden on a team, at least IMO.  

All the blathering about Purpura and McLane not doing enough seems like a whole lot of "chick little" panic-mongering...
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2005, 03:52:47 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.




I will be absolutely furious if April rolls around and the Astros expect White to take Clemens' place in the starting rotation.  That has disaster written all over it.






Dang Arky, you beat me to it!

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2005, 04:00:47 pm »
Quote:

I think that puts him in a tough position.  If the Astros really like Burke--and I think they do--then they want him to play in left, or a combination of left and ss and center and 2d.  Once you get to that point, it's hard to figure out where they make changes.  Assuming that Bagwell can't play or only gets limited play, my guess is that starting next spring we'll see a combination of Burke and Hobbs in left.  If Bagwell can play, where do you put someone else?  They may pick up White as a back up, but that's what he'll be.




The Astros are taking a risk if they premise their offseason moves on the assumptions that (1) Bagwell will be able to play at all, much less full time, and (2) Burke and Scott can cover left field.

The Astros started nine different players in left last season: Burke, Berkman, Palmeiro, Scott, Lamb, Bruntlett, Lane, Gipson and Self.  As a group they batted .244/.310/.388. The only teams faring worse out of their left fielders were the Orioles (.239/.289/.381), the White Sox (.269/.329/.328) and the Dodgers (.212/.279/.324).

Maybe Burke and Scott, sharing for a full season, can do better than last year's performance, but I think the Astros would be better off either (1) playing Lamb at first and Berkman in left if Bagwell can't play and/or (2) signing someone like White as an insurance policy to cover the position or to be a back-up if Bagwell can play. If White gets injured, they can always fall back on Burke and Scott as Plan B.

Even a moderately successful year by White might yield 20 more runs over what the Astros squeezed out of the position last year.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2005, 04:06:44 pm »
Quote:

Hunsicker was notoriously adverse to playing young players.  An outfield of Lane, Taveras, and Burke (etc) would have been very unlikely with Hunsicker.


His patience in the system guys was perhaps his gutsiest "move," especially with the way Ensberg and Lane started out.  No way would I have had the same willingness to wait it out.  He had to know he risked looking like a yes-man/doofus to the media/fans (whether or not he really cared is a different matter) if 15-30 had turned into 45-90 like so many expected or feared.  Presumably, all he had done before the great turnaround was "sit on his hands" while Kent, Beltran, and everyone else went elsewhere.

Then again, all his detractors haven't had the same filial ties to so many of these players for their entire professional careers the way the Count has.

And isn't that the point?  He knows these players; he knows what he's doing.  It wasn't luck, and he didn't simply inherit Gerry's kids.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2005, 04:11:42 pm »
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(2) signing someone like White as an insurance policy to cover the position or to be a back-up if Bagwell can't play. If White gets injured, they can always fall back on Burke and Scott as Plan B.




This is exactly what I thought the Astros would do, but Purpura publically stating that Nomar would start in LF has me baffled.


EDIT: I went back and looked for a statement by Purpura stating that Nomar would start in LF and I came up with nothing. Although, it seemed to be implyed by other sources.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2005, 04:19:05 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I think that puts him in a tough position.  If the Astros really like Burke--and I think they do--then they want him to play in left, or a combination of left and ss and center and 2d.  Once you get to that point, it's hard to figure out where they make changes.  Assuming that Bagwell can't play or only gets limited play, my guess is that starting next spring we'll see a combination of Burke and Hobbs in left.  If Bagwell can play, where do you put someone else?  They may pick up White as a back up, but that's what he'll be.




The Astros are taking a risk if they premise their offseason moves on the assumptions that (1) Bagwell will be able to play at all, much less full time, and (2) Burke and Scott can cover left field.

The Astros started nine different players in left last season: Burke, Berkman, Palmeiro, Scott, Lamb, Bruntlett, Lane, Gipson and Self.  As a group they batted .244/.310/.388. The only teams faring worse out of their left fielders were the Orioles (.239/.289/.381), the White Sox (.269/.329/.328) and the Dodgers (.212/.279/.324).

Maybe Burke and Scott, sharing for a full season, can do better than last year's performance, but I think the Astros would be better off either (1) playing Lamb at first and Berkman in left if Bagwell can't play and/or (2) signing someone like White as an insurance policy to cover the position or to be a back-up if Bagwell can play. If White gets injured, they can always fall back on Burke and Scott as Plan B.

Even a moderately successful year by White might yield 20 more runs over what the Astros squeezed out of the position last year.





Course Lamb last season was .236/.284/.419, so I guess you pick up some power but I don't think that giving up offense at first to bolster left is a better option. I could see them taking a risk on someone like Garciaparra, I just don't see any other FA out there who's a big improvement.  They're not in a position to trade starting pitching unless Clemens comes back, and unless they trade Lidge it's unlikely they'd pick up a good fielder.  And I'm convinced that Purpura and McLane really like Burke. It may be a risk, but I think Burke will be in left to start the season, with Hobbs if Hobbs continues to tear things up.  Unless Bagwell is back (and you're right about Bagwell).
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2005, 04:20:26 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.




I will be absolutely furious if April rolls around and the Astros expect White to take Clemens' place in the starting rotation.  That has disaster written all over it.





Exactly...especially after his shoulder surgery this offseason.  My guess is that the Astros will be lucky to get 100 IP out of the guy in '06.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2005, 04:33:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.




I will be absolutely furious if April rolls around and the Astros expect White to take Clemens' place in the starting rotation.  That has disaster written all over it.




Exactly...especially after his shoulder surgery this offseason.  My guess is that the Astros will be lucky to get 100 IP out of the guy in '06.




I've read reports that he's learning a knuckleball this offseason, so I don't think it'll be too much of a problem. Scuttlebutt is that he's now seeking at least 4 years / $40 million, having switched his position to starting pitcher. Left field is for suckers.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2005, 04:49:03 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

(2) signing someone like White as an insurance policy to cover the position or to be a back-up if Bagwell can't play. If White gets injured, they can always fall back on Burke and Scott as Plan B.




This is exactly what I thought the Astros would do, but Purpura publically stating that Nomar would start in LF has me baffled.


EDIT: I went back and looked for a statement by Purpura stating that Nomar would start in LF and I came up with nothing. Although, it seemed to be implyed by other sources.




"We're trying to add offense, and that's the only place (left field) I can add it right now," Purpura said.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2005, 04:51:04 pm »
Quote:

Exactly...especially after his shoulder surgery this offseason.  My guess is that the Astros will be lucky to get 100 IP out of the guy in '06.




I've read reports that he's learning a knuckleball this offseason, so I don't think it'll be too much of a problem. Scuttlebutt is that he's now seeking at least 4 years / $40 million, having switched his position to starting pitcher. Left field is for suckers.




I wonder if they could sign White, put him at starting pitcher, move Ensberg to left field, and see if Bagwell's shoulder comes back enough to move him to third.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2005, 04:53:16 pm »
Quote:

Course Lamb last season was .236/.284/.419, so I guess you pick up some power but I don't think that giving up offense at first to bolster left is a better option. I could see them taking a risk on someone like Garciaparra, I just don't see any other FA out there who's a big improvement.  They're not in a position to trade starting pitching unless Clemens comes back, and unless they trade Lidge it's unlikely they'd pick up a good fielder.  And I'm convinced that Purpura and McLane really like Burke. It may be a risk, but I think Burke will be in left to start the season, with Hobbs if Hobbs continues to tear things up.  Unless Bagwell is back (and you're right about Bagwell).




I was thinking more of how Lamb hit later in the season, but that's no given, either, in which case Lamb isn't a good option (not against lefties, to say the least).

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2005, 04:54:16 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Exactly...especially after his shoulder surgery this offseason.  My guess is that the Astros will be lucky to get 100 IP out of the guy in '06.





I've read reports that he's learning a knuckleball this offseason, so I don't think it'll be too much of a problem. Scuttlebutt is that he's now seeking at least 4 years / $40 million, having switched his position to starting pitcher. Left field is for suckers.




I wonder if they could sign White, put him at starting pitcher, move Ensberg to left field, and see if Bagwell's shoulder comes back enough to move him to third.




White throws right.  With Bagwell now throwing left, they should just move bagwell to relief.  I guess they'd have to give him more years, though.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2005, 04:56:04 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Exactly...especially after his shoulder surgery this offseason.  My guess is that the Astros will be lucky to get 100 IP out of the guy in '06.





I've read reports that he's learning a knuckleball this offseason, so I don't think it'll be too much of a problem. Scuttlebutt is that he's now seeking at least 4 years / $40 million, having switched his position to starting pitcher. Left field is for suckers.




I wonder if they could sign White, put him at starting pitcher, move Ensberg to left field, and see if Bagwell's shoulder comes back enough to move him to third.




Why can't Bagwell just learn to play third throwing left-handed? That shoulder's healthy, right?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2005, 04:56:23 pm »
Quote:



I wonder if they could sign White, put him at starting pitcher, move Ensberg to left field, and see if Bagwell's shoulder comes back enough to move him to third.



Yes, third base, his holy grail.  Then maybe, just maybe, he could finally live up to his potential.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2005, 06:14:26 pm »
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First of all, that depends on how you define a "winning team". If it's by winning championships, as many people would define it, then he has none.





And all this time I thought the Astros had won the National League Championship Series which made them National League Champions.  Damn.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2005, 06:50:36 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.




I will be absolutely furious if April rolls around and the Astros expect White to take Clemens' place in the starting rotation.  That has disaster written all over it.





The Astros didn't offer Clemens arbitration because they wanted to go out and "build the team."  If that means only picking up White and losing Clemens, I suspect Purpura won't exactly be a fan favorite in Houston.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2005, 06:55:03 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Yes.  You read the reactions when he didn't sign Garciaparra.  Imagine the reaction we April rolls around and Clemens has been replaced by Rondell White.




I will be absolutely furious if April rolls around and the Astros expect White to take Clemens' place in the starting rotation.  That has disaster written all over it.




The Astros didn't offer Clemens arbitration because they wanted to go out and "build the team."  If that means only picking up White and losing Clemens, I suspect Purpura won't exactly be a fan favorite in Houston.




Why does one have anything to do with the other?

They didn't want to spend $20 Million on a pitcher.  And people here are moaning that Ausmus is over paid?

Get your head out of your ass!

You have to make tough choices everyday when you run a ballclub, and I am supremely thankful that some of you have ZERO influence on those choices!

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2005, 07:15:10 pm »
Quote:


Why does one have anything to do with the other?

They didn't want to spend $20 Million on a pitcher.  And people here are moaning that Ausmus is over paid?

Get your head out of your ass!

You have to make tough choices everyday when you run a ballclub, and I am supremely thankful that some of you have ZERO influence on those choices!





I'll assume you aren't talking to me.  The Astros didn't offer arbitration to Clemens for the sole reason that they didn't want his contract to preclude them from bringing in more offense, this team's biggest need.  If Clemens signs with the Rangers, and the only addition to the team comes in the form of Rondell White, Astros fans are going to be pissed.  Most of that anger will be directed at the General Manager.  Whether or not that anger is misdirected/misguided is another matter entirely.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2005, 07:18:30 pm »
The Astros didn't offer Clemens arbitration because they wanted to go out and "build the team." If that means only picking up White and losing Clemens, I suspect Purpura won't exactly be a fan favorite in Houston.

Horseshit. They didn't offer Clemens arbitration because they didn't feel like waiting for him to decide what he wanted to do then have to possibly pay him $20M.

You seem smarter than this. Why take on the 610 mentality now?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2005, 07:42:23 pm »
Quote:

The Astros didn't offer Clemens arbitration because they wanted to go out and "build the team." If that means only picking up White and losing Clemens, I suspect Purpura won't exactly be a fan favorite in Houston.

Horseshit. They didn't offer Clemens arbitration because they didn't feel like waiting for him to decide what he wanted to do then have to possibly pay him $20M.

You seem smarter than this. Why take on the 610 mentality now?





This is essentially what I'm saying.  The uncertainty of Clemens' contract would preclude them from acquiring the offensive help they  needed.  By not offering arbitration to the guy, they don't run the risk of adding, say, $10 million to the payroll with offensive additions, then leave themselves vulnerable to being forced to add another $15 to $20 million by signing Clemens.  Drayton didn't want a payroll that exceeded $100 million.  Likewise, he also didn't want to offer arbitration, feel precluded from addressing the offensive needs of the club, then watch Clemens retire.  I get all of this, but this isn't the point.

The point is that by not offering Clemens arbitration, they run the risk of the worst possible scenario: Clemens signs elsewhere, and the Astros are unable to bring in any offensive help.  Put this in the context of this morning's insinuations that "Purpura sucks;" if some here are annoyed with the anti-Purpura posts a day after he fails to somehow magically lure Nomar Garciaparra into signing with the club, imagine the place come April if the worst scenario comes true.  If you disagree, then you have a vastly over-inflated opinion of Astrocreep and Dobro.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2005, 07:44:31 pm »
Quote:

The Astros didn't offer Clemens arbitration because they wanted to go out and "build the team."  If that means only picking up White and losing Clemens, I suspect Purpura won't exactly be a fan favorite in Houston.




Probably no less of a fan favorite than had the Astros offered Clemens arbitration, proceeded on the assumption that they would be paying him $20 million in 2006, made other moves accordingly, and then found out just before spring training that Clemens decided to retire.

I hope Purpura cares less what the Howard-in-Memorial crowd thinks and does not make decisions based on callers to 610 and letters to the Chronicle.

If the Astros have money to play with because they declined to offer arbitration to Clemens, and they find a place to spend that money wisely, so as to improve the team's chances of winning, then go for it.

But if the same money is spent on foolish transactions just to appease critical fans obsessed with finding fault in the team's every move, then that is a mistake, regardless of whether it means "replacing" Clemens with Rondell White.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2005, 07:49:01 pm »
Quote:

I'm trying to decide what's more ridiculous:

(1) people obsessing about defense in left field; or




Let's move Bagwell to left then. The idea you can put any old shot putter in Left is ridiculous.

Sure, probably the least critical defensive position
next to 1st, but I think the Astros can do better than
the worst Left field arm in Baseball. (as reported in a previous post)

And, again the ONLY good thing Purpura has done is NOT have a fire sale. He deserves to be questioned.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2005, 07:51:44 pm »
That's assuming I even care about what anyone says who would make such a statement. The putz parade will march through here regardless of the moves or non-moves the Astros make. I have a responsibility to myself to ignore them.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2005, 08:03:44 pm »
Quote:

I'm trying to decide what's more ridiculous:

(1) people obsessing about defense in left field; or




Let's move Bagwell to left then. The idea you can put any old shot putter in Left is ridiculous.

Sure, probably the least critical defensive position
next to 1st, but I think the Astros can do better than
the worst Left field arm in Baseball. (as reported in a previous post)

And, again the ONLY good thing Purpura has done is NOT have a fire sale. He deserves to be questioned.





You really do not get it.   Do you trust Luke Scott or Chris Burke offensively over a solid hitter like White? Over a Lamb/White platoon?  I don't, and I don't think the team wants to gamble on that if they don't have to do so.  I'm willing to bet Rondell White's bat compared to that of Scott or Burke at this point outweighs whatever defensive gain you might get from them.  

Furthermore, about purpura not doing anything.  He inherited a team that had most every position already filled capably, and with talented younger players ready to contribute like Willy, Jason, Morgan, Chad, and Brandon, etc.  He also has a limited budget, and a budget that the Astros are close to or above already.  Plus the team is in a transitional stage from the Biggio/Bagwell era to the Berkman/Oswalt era and therefore he didn't want to give up the few quality prospects he had for a rental last year, unless the right deal presented itself.

Lastly, he did have a deal with seattle worked out for randy winn and jamie moyer but moyer blocked it.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2005, 08:09:16 pm »
Quote:

This is essentially what I'm saying.  The uncertainty of Clemens' contract would preclude them from acquiring the offensive help they  needed.  By not offering arbitration to the guy, they don't run the risk of adding, say, $10 million to the payroll with offensive additions, then leave themselves vulnerable to being forced to add another $15 to $20 million by signing Clemens.  Drayton didn't want a payroll that exceeded $100 million.  Likewise, he also didn't want to offer arbitration, feel precluded from addressing the offensive needs of the club, then watch Clemens retire.  I get all of this, but this isn't the point.

The point is that by not offering Clemens arbitration, they run the risk of the worst possible scenario: Clemens signs elsewhere, and the Astros are unable to bring in any offensive help.  Put this in the context of this morning's insinuations that "Purpura sucks;" if some here are annoyed with the anti-Purpura posts a day after he fails to somehow magically lure Nomar Garciaparra into signing with the club, imagine the place come April if the worst scenario comes true.  If you disagree, then you have a vastly over-inflated opinion of Astrocreep and Dobro.





I agree with much of this.  I would add, as my previous post states, that making a move to spend the money that would have gone to Clemens just to keep critical fans from carping is not a constructive way to build a baseball team.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2005, 08:19:13 pm »
"You really do not get it.   Do you trust Luke Scott or Chris Burke offensively over a solid hitter like White? Over a Lamb/White platoon?  I don't, and I don't think the team wants to gamble on that if they don't have to do so.  I'm willing to bet Rondell White's bat compared to that of Scott or Burke at this point outweighs whatever defensive gain you might get from them."  



That's assuming Rondell can come back after shoulder surgery. I could be wrong but the reason Bagwell can still
hit is because he still has a strong LEFT shoulder, his right shoulder kinda just guides the bat to the hitting zone.

WITHOUT, including Lidge in any trades , A team that just went to the World Series has got to be able to find a better solution in LF than White/Scott/Burke.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2005, 08:31:53 pm »
There aren't any better solutions.   Maybe an Aubrey Huff in tampa bay.  The other FA outfielders of note are Sanders, Jacque Jones and Jeromy Burnitz.   None of which are any better than White, plus Sanders and Jones are looking at lucrative multi year offers already.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2005, 08:48:03 pm »
Did I miss a season?  I thought last season the Astros went to the World Series.  From some of these comments it seems another season has been played in which the Astros finished 70-92.

Whatever happened to people only bitching after a losing season, not after the best season in club history? People complained after the 2004 season, and things turned out ok.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2005, 09:02:09 pm »
Quote:

Let's move Bagwell to left then. The idea you can put any old shot putter in Left is ridiculous.

Sure, probably the least critical defensive position
next to 1st, but I think the Astros can do better than
the worst Left field arm in Baseball. (as reported in a previous post)





This is reductio ad absurdum.  Arguing about the importance of having a weak-throwing vs. a strong-throwing left fielder is a few degrees more picayune than arguing that a first baseman with a chronically separated shoulder or, for that matter, you, me or my grandmother should be out there.

I thought the purpose of signing White (or Garciaparra, whose outfield arm is untested, given that he never played the position) was to add offense.  But now that the Astros failed to sign the guy who never played outfield at all, we should be nit-picky about the arm of the other guy being considered (who actually has experience in the outfield), despite the fact that he will placed in the least defensively demanding outfield position?

So what are you looking for?  Another bat to add to the line-up?  A better arm in left field?  Or a reason to complain about Purpura?

Quote:

And, again the ONLY good thing Purpura has done is NOT have a fire sale. He deserves to be questioned.




I thought he signed Oswalt to a two-year deal and Berkman to a six-year deal last offseason.  And cleared the way for Taveras and Lane to play full seasons, with at least modest success.  And stuck with Ensberg when he batted .246 with two home runs in April, rather than reverting to the platoon that existed in previous seasons.  There was no good in any of those decisions?

Also, I think you underestimate the value of not having a firesale -- and not making knee-jerk moves -- before the Astros proceeded to finish the season 74-43 and climb over 11 teams to win the wild card.

He deserves to be questioned, just like any other general manager.  That does not mean he deserves to be flamed.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2005, 09:05:35 pm »
Quote:

That's assuming Rondell can come back after shoulder surgery. I could be wrong but the reason Bagwell can still
hit is because he still has a strong LEFT shoulder, his right shoulder kinda just guides the bat to the hitting zone.

WITHOUT, including Lidge in any trades, A team that just went to the World Series has got to be able to find a better solution in LF than White/Scott/Burke.





What do you propose?  I take it from your criticism above that you liked the idea of Nomar, which is strange, since you seem to place emphasis on defense in left field, and Nomar has never played left field.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2005, 11:05:19 pm »
Just weighing in here...

Personally, I loved the idea of signing Nomar...that was a bat that had a ton of upside.  Sure his defense would've been questionable, but it's LF for Pete's sake.  If I'm a GM, then I'm willing to take that gamble.  Moreover I was happy to see that Drayton (and Pup) were willing to fork out the money to sign the guy.  In the end he didn't choose the Astros, so fuckit, you move on.  All that's left via the FAgency route are guys like Rondell White.  Does he have the upside of Garciapara?  Probably not, but assuming he's healthy, then you know what you'll get and I'd be very happy to see the Astros sign him.  The only other way that they'll be able to add an impact bat will be through a trade and I don't know about you other sane people out there, but I'm not willing to part with Lidge, Qualls or Backe unless it one heck of a bat.  Look around, people, these kind of bats aren't available.  



And so with that I ask...

What in the hell is wrong with adding a guy like RWhite to solidify the bench and nothing else?  What's wrong with starting the season with the team we have...knowing full well that Bags could return and post at least decent numbers (.260/.350/.450) and, knowing that Clemens could still decide to join the club by late May, early June.  Oh yeah, and Berkman's going to be fully healthy too, and guys like Wandy, Zeke, Tavares, Burke & Scott will be a year wiser too.  Oh, and what else you ask?  Well, what about the fact that kids like Hirsh, Nieve and Bucholtz will be beating down the big league door.

Boys, bottom line is that this team could be damn good as is.  Yeah, it could use a few breaks to get there, but then every team short of the $200 million dollar spending Yankees/Redsox and maybe the fucking soul-selling Braves are left saying the same thing every spring.  So those that are already second guessing...shut the fuck up and see if you can't find a little more patience.  This organization has been better than most over the past 7-8 seasons...let's fucking give them the benefit of the doubt, at least until they go 15-30 to start the season...ok?

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2005, 11:22:17 pm »
Quote:

The Astros play 81 games on the road.

A runner going from first to third on a hit to left, on a regular bases, would really hurt.





How much would it hurt?

STATS, Inc. used to publish an annual, The Baseball Scoreboard, in which it listed opportunities for extra bases and opportunities for extra bases taken against outfielders.  The book hasn't been published since 2001, so there's no current data for White to give insight on him in particular.

It is noteworthy, however, that for the four seasons 1998 to 2001, the average for left fielders was about 32 percent: that means runners managed to take the extra base in 32 percent of opportunities against left fielders.

Moreover, the worst left fielder in the league (Ron Gant, 1998; Albert Belle, 1999; Orlando Merced, 2000; Glenallen Hill, 2001) tended to be around 45 percent.

So for every 100 opportunities, the worst left fielder allowed about 13 more extra bases than the average left fielder. For every 150 opportunities, that translates to 20 more extra bases.  (Only a handful of left fielders for the entire period were run on as many as or more than 150 times.)

This suggests that even if White had the worst arm of any left fielder in baseball, and even if the Astros played him so often that he faced that many opportunities (not a huge likelihood teams would run so freely given 81 games in a ballpark with a 315-foot left field fence), you're talking about 20 extra bases more than the average.

That number is not insignificant, but I'm not sure it translates into "really hurt" for the Astros. It's about once every week and a half.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2005, 01:00:11 am »
 
Quote:

This suggests that even if White had the worst arm of any left fielder in baseball, and even if the Astros played him so often that he faced that many opportunities (not a huge likelihood teams would run so freely given 81 games in a ballpark with a 315-foot left field fence), you're talking about 20 extra bases more than the average.

That number is not insignificant,




Which is why, it's obvious, they plan on moving White into the rotation, as mentioned, to replace Clemens, and convert Zeke to LF, so they never have to worry about those 20 extra bases.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2005, 08:38:33 am »
quote]

What do you propose?  I take it from your criticism above that you liked the idea of Nomar, which is strange, since you seem to place emphasis on defense in left field, and Nomar has never played left field.





Nomar has never played LF, but he was willing to, and seemed
he preferred that to 1st. He just wanted to know so he could prepare in the offseason. He already has the arm, the athletic ability, and the willingness to play a new position, that to me translates into a pretty good defensive LF.

Garland, Huff, do SOMETHING to improve the team over last year.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2005, 08:40:56 am »
Quote:

Quote:

The Astros play 81 games on the road.

A runner going from first to third on a hit to left, on a regular bases, would really hurt.





How much would it hurt?

STATS, Inc. used to publish an annual, The Baseball Scoreboard, in which it listed opportunities for extra bases and opportunities for extra bases taken against outfielders.  The book hasn't been published since 2001, so there's no current data for White to give insight on him in particular.

It is noteworthy, however, that for the four seasons 1998 to 2001, the average for left fielders was about 32 percent: that means runners managed to take the extra base in 32 percent of opportunities against left fielders.

Moreover, the worst left fielder in the league (Ron Gant, 1998; Albert Belle, 1999; Orlando Merced, 2000; Glenallen Hill, 2001) tended to be around 45 percent.

So for every 100 opportunities, the worst left fielder allowed about 13 more extra bases than the average left fielder. For every 150 opportunities, that translates to 20 more extra bases.  (Only a handful of left fielders for the entire period were run on as many as or more than 150 times.)

This suggests that even if White had the worst arm of any left fielder in baseball, and even if the Astros played him so often that he faced that many opportunities (not a huge likelihood teams would run so freely given 81 games in a ballpark with a 315-foot left field fence), you're talking about 20 extra bases more than the average.

That number is not insignificant, but I'm not sure it translates into "really hurt" for the Astros. It's about once every week and a half.





Great stats, but it still doesn't address the fact that the LEFT shoulder could affect his swing.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2005, 11:16:52 am »
from the Chron...

"We've got to make a deal," McLane said. "My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."



GO Drayton! Just leave Lidge out of it.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2005, 11:29:01 am »
Quote:

Great stats, but it still doesn't address the fact that the LEFT shoulder could affect his swing.




Fine.  I don't think anybody here is arguing that Purpura will be a hero if they were to sign White without a thorough consideration of his recovering shoulder injury.

But that doesn't change the fact that you called Purpura "fucking useless" because the Astros failed to sign Garciaparra and might sign White, after somebody else posted that White supposedly has the worst outfield arm in baseball.

Which makes you full of crap for at least two reasons:

First, you allegedly would have been happy had the Astros signed a player who had never played left field at all, which seems like something of a risk if you are concerned about defense in left field.  Yes, he may be atheletic, but does that mean he might have to get used to judging fly balls to the outfield, instead of to the infield, and how to play the ball off the left field wall.

Second, we find that the potential difference with White's arm might be something like one extra base every week and a half at most, assuming all factors against him.  To which, you reply, what about his shoulder?

I don't have a problem with being critical, I have a problem with being disingenous about it.  What you have set up is a moving target.  One of your concerns is refuted, and you raise another (great stats, but what about his shoulder?)  Or your concerns apply selectively. (White's defense is a problem, but who cares if Garciaparra has never played there?)

There's no policy that you have to be Rah! Rah! Astros! to post here, but if you're coming in here to piss and moan no matter the response, then you're just wasting bandwidth and everybody's time.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2005, 11:33:13 am »
Quote:

Garland, Huff, do SOMETHING to improve the team over last year.

from the Chron...

"We've got to make a deal," McLane said. "My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

GO Drayton! Just leave Lidge out of it.





So, which is it?  Do something?  But not sign Rondell White, that wouldn't count as something.  And get somebody, anybody, except maybe Rondell White, but just leave Lidge out of it.

You seem on the one hand to be constantly bitching that the Astos must engage in furious activity to improve the team, but then you place a whole bunch of limitations on, and raise a bunch of criticisms about, what is to be done.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2005, 12:20:05 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Garland, Huff, do SOMETHING to improve the team over last year.

from the Chron...

"We've got to make a deal," McLane said. "My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

GO Drayton! Just leave Lidge out of it.





So, which is it?  Do something?  But not sign Rondell White, that wouldn't count as something.  And get somebody, anybody, except maybe Rondell White, but just leave Lidge out of it.

You seem on the one hand to be constantly bitching that the Astos must engage in furious activity to improve the team, but then you place a whole bunch of limitations on, and raise a bunch of criticisms about, what is to be done.





I never said furious. And I should have put the emphasis on
IMPROVE, instead of SOMETHING. MAYBE Rondell improves your
team, but not clearly a better choice than Scott, when you add up, bad throwing arm AND left shoulder surgery.

I thought it was impressive that you could find numbers to measure a left fielders throwing effectiveness. But I will never agree that you can put any old bear league softball player out there if he can hit. And if you do you better make sure his bat makes up for his lack of D, or is a Houston icon with a #7 on his back

"Fucking Useless" was, yes, harsh and un-necessary. But it wasn?t just a knee-jerk reaction to not signing Nomar, it came from the year and half the Astros have not
been able to make a deal since Purpura took over.

And until a deal is made I will stand by my opinion that Purpura is useless AS GM. Put him back in player development where he seems to do his best.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2005, 12:23:23 pm »
Quote:

...And until a deal is made I will stand by my opinion that Purpura is useless AS GM. Put him back in player development where he seems to do his best.




What in the world do you think is the job of a GM?

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2005, 12:30:49 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

...And until a deal is made I will stand by my opinion that Purpura is useless AS GM. Put him back in player development where he seems to do his best.




What in the world do you think is the job of a GM?






GERRY HUNSICKER. Make deals that improve your team without
sacrificing your future.

I thought being a GM meant more focuse on the Major League
level, and less on player development. No?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2005, 12:39:41 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

...And until a deal is made I will stand by my opinion that Purpura is useless AS GM. Put him back in player development where he seems to do his best.




What in the world do you think is the job of a GM?





GERRY HUNSICKER. Make deals that improve your team without
sacrificing your future.

I thought being a GM meant more focuse on the Major League
level, and less on player development. No?




No. A GM's job is to put the best team he can assemble in the hands of the manager.  Where does it say you have to shuffle players like a coked up baccarat dealer to achieve that? And you're completely wrong about Hunsicker. He said on many occasions that he thought the Astros had a short window of opportunity with the players they had and was willing to trade multiple minor leaguers to obtain the missing player that would get them into the World Series.  Different situation than what Purpura is facing.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2005, 12:44:54 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

...And until a deal is made I will stand by my opinion that Purpura is useless AS GM. Put him back in player development where he seems to do his best.




What in the world do you think is the job of a GM?





GERRY HUNSICKER. Make deals that improve your team without
sacrificing your future.

I thought being a GM meant more focuse on the Major League
level, and less on player development. No?




No. A GM's job is to put the best team he can assemble in the hands of the manager...





According to Drayton, he has yet to do that, this off-season. I'm not the only one who thinks Purpura needs to
get his ass in gear.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2005, 12:47:05 pm »
Quote:

I never said furious. And I should have put the emphasis on IMPROVE, instead of SOMETHING. MAYBE Rondell improves your team, but not clearly a better choice than Scott, when you add up, bad throwing arm AND left shoulder surgery.




Are you thinking of the Scott who batted .188/.270/.288 in the majors or the Scott who batted .286/.363/.603 at Round Rock?  Obviously if Scott can translate that AAA performance into major-league success, he is a better option.  But that is not a knowable factor, is it?

White's shoulder (and arm -- more on that below, however) seems no more risky than assuming that Scott makes the step forward.  And if Scott does make that step because Purpura gives him the chance to do so, is Purpura still "useless?"  Because you seem not to believe these kinds of "moves" count for Purpura.

Quote:

I thought it was impressive that you could find numbers to measure a left fielders throwing effectiveness. But I will never agree that you can put any old bear league softball player out there if he can hit. And if you do you better make sure his bat makes up for his lack of D, or is a Houston icon with a #7 on his back.




The purpose is not to impress you.  It is to get an idea of the magnitute of the problem if White's arm is as bad as reported.  That magnitude might be something on the order of one extra base every week and a half, if history says anything about it.

Nobody has ever suggested that any beer league softball player in left field is acceptable.  This is a straw man.  Stop responding to arguments that nobody has actually made and start addressing what is actually said in response to what you wrote.

So how much offense does White need to supply to make up for 20 additional extra bases per season?  Because I think if he can bat something close to .313/.348/.489 again, that might do the trick relative to what the Astros put in left field last season.

Quote:

"Fucking Useless" was, yes, harsh and un-necessary. But it wasn't just a knee-jerk reaction to not signing Nomar, it came from the year and half the Astros have not
been able to make a deal since Purpura took over.

And until a deal is made I will stand by my opinion that Purpura is useless AS GM. Put him back in player development where he seems to do his best.





Stand behind your opinion, then, no matter how baseless it is.  The measure of a general manager is his results.  In one year, Purpura's team won its first pennant.  But you tell us we cannot judge him on that, because it was not his doing, but Hunsicker's.

Which is pretty clever of you.  You take away the only basis for defending Purpura, then turn around and call him useless based on your own criteria, which is how many deals he has done.  If that were the standard, then Omar Minaya would be the hottest front-office asset in baseball.  Which everybody knows is a ludicrous proposition.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2005, 12:49:21 pm »
Quote:

According to Drayton, he has yet to do that, this off-season. I'm not the only one who thinks Purpura needs to
get his ass in gear.





The difference is that Drayton probably doesn't think Purpura is "fucking useless," or he wouldn't have hired Purpura and kept him in the job in the first place.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2005, 12:50:46 pm »
Quote:



No. A GM's job is to put the best team he can assemble in the hands of the manager.  Where does it say you have to shuffle players like a coked up baccarat dealer to achieve that? And you're completely wrong about Hunsicker.



I think Arky's earlier response describes succinctly what a GM is supposed to do:

"I thought he signed Oswalt to a two-year deal and Berkman to a six-year deal last offseason. And cleared the way for Taveras and Lane to play full seasons, with at least modest success. And stuck with Ensberg when he batted .246 with two home runs in April, rather than reverting to the platoon that existed in previous seasons. There was no good in any of those decisions?"

Raise your hand if you were among those wanting to give Ensberg more time when May rolled around.  Why must a "real" GM always have to look outside the organization for improvement?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2005, 12:52:05 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



No. A GM's job is to put the best team he can assemble in the hands of the manager.  Where does it say you have to shuffle players like a coked up baccarat dealer to achieve that? And you're completely wrong about Hunsicker.



I think Arky's earlier response describes succinctly what a GM is supposed to do:

"I thought he signed Oswalt to a two-year deal and Berkman to a six-year deal last offseason. And cleared the way for Taveras and Lane to play full seasons, with at least modest success. And stuck with Ensberg when he batted .246 with two home runs in April, rather than reverting to the platoon that existed in previous seasons. There was no good in any of those decisions?"

Raise your hand if you were among those wanting to give Ensberg more time when May rolled around.  Why must a "real" GM always have to look outside the organization for improvement?





Curious that that post went without comment by the poster it was in response to.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2005, 12:55:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

...And until a deal is made I will stand by my opinion that Purpura is useless AS GM. Put him back in player development where he seems to do his best.




What in the world do you think is the job of a GM?





GERRY HUNSICKER. Make deals that improve your team without
sacrificing your future.

I thought being a GM meant more focuse on the Major League
level, and less on player development. No?




No. A GM's job is to put the best team he can assemble in the hands of the manager...





According to Drayton, he has yet to do that, this off-season. I'm not the only one who thinks Purpura needs to
get his ass in gear.




Wrong, again.  According to Drayton, widely regarded as having a limited understanding of baseball, he thinks they shouldnt do just any deal.  And besides, this is the season of talk (see also bullshit); last season, which was the put up or shut up, the team they put on the field won the National League pennant.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2005, 12:59:18 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

...And until a deal is made I will stand by my opinion that Purpura is useless AS GM. Put him back in player development where he seems to do his best.




What in the world do you think is the job of a GM?





GERRY HUNSICKER. Make deals that improve your team without
sacrificing your future.

I thought being a GM meant more focuse on the Major League
level, and less on player development. No?




No. A GM's job is to put the best team he can assemble in the hands of the manager...





According to Drayton, he has yet to do that, this off-season. I'm not the only one who thinks Purpura needs to
get his ass in gear.




Wrong, again.  According to Drayton, widely regarded as having a limited understanding of baseball, he thinks they shouldnt do just any deal.  And besides, this is the season of talk (see also bullshit); last season, which was the put up or shut up, the team they put on the field won the National League pennant.




But don't you understand, some people are just never happy!
I still don't get people who say that the team that won the NL last year isn't good enough for them this year.  Oh, wait that's right Roger isn't being allowed to screw the team this offseason, so we need to complain!

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2005, 12:59:21 pm »
I'm not the only one who thinks Purpura needs to
get his ass in gear. See Draytons quotes from the Chron
article.

White/Scott? we can go back and forth. Considering EVERYTHING, White is not significantly better than Scott.

I'm saying, find someone that is CLEARLY better than Scott when you consider all aspects of a deal. Drayton seems to agree.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2005, 01:03:19 pm »
Quote:

I'm not the only one who thinks Purpura needs to
get his ass in gear. See Draytons quotes from the Chron
article.

White/Scott? we can go back and forth. Considering EVERYTHING, White is not significantly better than Scott.

I'm saying, find someone that is CLEARLY better than Scott when you consider all aspects of a deal. Drayton seems to agree.





Umm, White has 12 years of MLB experience, Scott has had a cup of coffee.  Now I am not going to say White is better or worse than Scott, but if you can feel safer with someone like White, maybe that means something.  White at least has proven he can hit in the Majors.  Scott is still grasping to that "P" word.

And you are one of the few that seems to think Tim is a failure because he hasn't done anything flashy yet.  Not doing something flashy and doing nothing are two different things, but you don't seem to know the difference.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2005, 01:11:13 pm »

Wrong, again.  According to Drayton, widely regarded as having a limited understanding of baseball, he thinks they shouldnt do just any deal.  And besides, this is the season of talk (see also bullshit); last season, which was the put up or shut up, the team they put on the field won the National League pennant.




I never said they should make a deal just to make a deal.

"We've got to make a deal," McLane said.
"My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

This DOESN'T mean get your asses in gear?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2005, 01:14:44 pm »
 Not doing something flashy and doing nothing are two different things, but you don't seem to know the difference.




I never said he needs to do something Flashy.
Nomar/Garland/Hernandez(catcher)

EITHER ONE of these moves would have changed my opinion of him.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2005, 01:18:05 pm »
Quote:

Not doing something flashy and doing nothing are two different things, but you don't seem to know the difference.




I never said he needs to do something Flashy.
Nomar/Garland/Hernandez(catcher)

EITHER ONE of these moves would have changed my opinion of him.




Oh, I get it.  If he gets someone you targeted he did a good job, and if he doesn't he "fucked up" ok.  Now I understand where you are comming from.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2005, 01:21:56 pm »

Oh, I get it.  If he gets someone you targeted he did a good job, and if he doesn't he "fucked up" ok.  Now I understand where you are comming from.




Don't try to speak for me.

I'll re-phrase Nomar/Garland/Hernandez type move.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2005, 01:22:39 pm »
If Rondell White is healthy, he is a less risky/more proven option than Luke Scott(a major gamble) at this time.  And I don't understand why you don't get that we are discussing a healthy White acquisition.   Why do you think Purpura said the team needs to examine his medical issues further?  The organization isn't stupid and neither are the people on this board.  

Btw, here are White's last few offensive seasons:

2005: 374 AB's, .313 BA, .348 OBP, .489 SLG
2004: 448 AB'S,  .270 BA, .337 OBP, .453 SLG
2003: 488 AB's, .289 BA, .341 OBP, .488 SLG

Those OPS's come out to .847, .790, and .829.  And he played in SD and DET for all but 22 games of those 3 seasons(ie pitchers parks).

In fact if I go back further:

2001: 323 AB's, .307 BA, .371 OBP, .529 SLG
2000: 357 AB's, .311 BA, .374 OBP, .493 SLG
1999: 539 AB's, .312 BA, .359 OBP, .505 SL

Those OPS's are .900, .867, and .863.  The only bad year the guy has had offensively in the last 7 years was 2002 with the Yankees, where he hit .240, .278, .388=.666 OPS(and that is about the same kind of number that chris burke put up last year)

The bottom line is if White is healthy and considering his probable contract demand being in the 1-3 million dollar range he makes a very solid pickup for the organization, and provides them with a lot of lineup flexibility.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2005, 01:33:08 pm »
If you were implying, I never said I'd prefer Scott over White.

I'm saying I think the Astros can do better than White.
Maybe even a guy that can help us in LF in the future
when Berkman is permanent 1st basemen.

I think some of the DRay outfieders could provide that.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2005, 01:33:41 pm »
Quote:

I never said they should make a deal just to make a deal.

"We've got to make a deal," McLane said.
"My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

This DOESN'T mean get your asses in gear?





And he also added:

"It has to be the right deal," he said. "More than the money, we don't want to give up the wrong deal. We've all seen trades that really didn't make sense. We've got to make a trade that's meaningful."

Which means don't do something stupid.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2005, 01:41:30 pm »
I agree.

I really didn't like some of the proposed Tejada trade ideas. And Dunn's price is too high. Griffey? Hell no!

They would make a HUGE splash, but they'd be giving up too much.

Nomar mean't NO lost prospects. Lane would have suffered though, if Bagwell could play.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2005, 01:48:04 pm »
I'm not really sure they can do better than a healthy White honestly.   Aubrey Huff is nice, but he had a bad year last year, worse than White's numbers, and again what are you willing to part with to get him(it will take young pitching).   Bobby Abreu is not coming cheap in terms of talent.   It's debatable whether Mench or Wilkerson are better than White before factoring in the talent traded to get them.  

Manny Ramirez: see Abreu.  Craig Monroe is similar to White but has to be traded for, and the Reds are asking a lot for Dunn or Griffey.  I guess you could add guys like Shawn Green(again not much better than White if at all) and Chad Tracy in arizona to the mix as well.  

The point here is how many of those guys are so much better than a healthy White that you would accept the tradeoff of White plus the necessary talent to acquire the better player.   There aren't many in that list that I think qualify in that regard.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2005, 01:53:35 pm »
Quote:

I agree.

I really didn't like some of the proposed Tejada trade ideas. And Dunn's price is too high. Griffey? Hell no!

They would make a HUGE splash, but they'd be giving up too much.

Nomar mean't NO lost prospects. Lane would have suffered though, if Bagwell could play.

 





A healthy White also means no lost prospects.  And he is a good hitter, like Nomar(probably a small step down from a healthy Nomar).   And White could be more receptive to a bench role than Nomar might have been, plus he is cheaper. You are contradicting yourself by suggesting that Nomar was a worthwhile acquisition but a healthy White isn't.  
Especially when you say they can do better, but you even admit you consider the prices for some of the elite hitters on the trade market to be too steep.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #97 on: December 20, 2005, 01:56:46 pm »
Good points.

What do you think it would take to get Johnny Gomes?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2005, 02:04:24 pm »
If I had to guess, Tampa Bay would want one or maybe two out of Buchholz, Nieve, Hirsh, Astacio, Qualls, or Patton.   They need young pitching in the worst way, and gomes is a cheap power hitter.  In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if the asking price on Huff is less than that of Gomes.  Reason being Huff makes decent money, is older and is a free agent after next season while Gomes still has plenty of years under club control.

Edit: I took out Albers as his personal issues would probably shy any teams away from a trade.  
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2005, 02:19:00 pm »
Quote:

A healthy White also means no lost prospects. And he is a good hitter, like Nomar (probably a small step down from a healthy Nomar). And White could be more receptive to a bench role than Nomar might have been, plus he is cheaper. You are contradicting yourself by suggesting that Nomar was a worthwhile acquisition but a healthy White isn't.




This is part of my point.

How can Nomar be an acceptable deal and White an unacceptable deal?  Both are significant injury risks, and while White's arm is asserted to be poor, we know nothing of Nomar's defensive skills as an outfielder.

Yes, Nomar's offensive upside is greater than White's; but White is more likely to be willing to play part-time, if necessary, and White is likely to cost half as much.

I would have been pleased had the Astros signed Nomar, as would McLane, judging by his comments in the Chronicle article. But Nomar landed much closer to home.

According to ESPN, the remaining outfielders on the free-agent market, besides White, are Jeff Conine, Denny Hocking, Todd Hollandsworth, Brian Jordan, Eli Marrero, Reggie Sanders, B.J. Surhoff, Johnny Damon, Kenny Lofton, Bernie Williams, Preston Wilson, Danny Bautista, Jeromy Burnitz, Juan Encarnacion, Juan Gonzalez, Jeffrey Hammonds, Richard Hidalgo, Jacque Jones, Matt Lawton, Sammy Sosa, Michael Tucker and Gerald Williams.

White certainly isn't the least attractive, in terms and price and usefulness, in that group.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2005, 02:47:57 pm »
Quote:

This was pin-wheel-esque!  I've read it, re-read it and still haven't a clue what your point is.  Is it obvious I'm not in the 3% club?




My point is that the jury is still out on Pupura as a GM, IMO, but I have no idea what the "3% club" is. Putting together a team that wins consistently is the mark of a good GM. He did it once without needing to make any big moves, but he probably won't be able to do that forever. Big moves will probably need to be made in order to consistently win, thereby proving himself as a GM. Clear enough?

Quote:

And I define winning as winning more than you lose.  If you can make year to year improvement, you are a bad-ass (or at least, that's how I would define it, were I wanting to define what I meant???).



We agree. That's how I would define it as well. I was only pointing out that other people would define it differently (i.e playoff appearances, WS championships, etc.), and I think they would have a legitimate argument, even though I would disagree.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2005, 03:06:02 pm »
I doubt seriously that the Rays would even consider trading Gomes at this point.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #102 on: December 20, 2005, 03:17:15 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

A healthy White also means no lost prospects. And he is a good hitter, like Nomar (probably a small step down from a healthy Nomar). And White could be more receptive to a bench role than Nomar might have been, plus he is cheaper. You are contradicting yourself by suggesting that Nomar was a worthwhile acquisition but a healthy White isn't.




-----------------------------------------

Nomar's August and September led me to believe, although he
won't be stealing many bases and his SS days are over, he could still be a .320 hitter with 25 Hr's. For 3 years.
AND Nomar could take better advantage of the Crawfish boxes.
I'd have to see the numbers but isn't White more of a line drive/ground ball hitter?

I really doubt Nomar would consider coming to Houston without the promise of a starting position. Even if Bagwell
could go, at the expenswe of Lane.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #103 on: December 20, 2005, 03:29:40 pm »
Nomar is also a line drive hitter.  White has just as much of a chance to take advantage of the Boxes, imho.  Only difference is I would expect White to hit for a slightly lower average and slightly less slugging percentage if both are healthy.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #104 on: December 20, 2005, 03:32:23 pm »
Quote:


Wrong, again.  According to Drayton, widely regarded as having a limited understanding of baseball, he thinks they shouldnt do just any deal.  And besides, this is the season of talk (see also bullshit); last season, which was the put up or shut up, the team they put on the field won the National League pennant.





I never said they should make a deal just to make a deal.

"We've got to make a deal," McLane said.
"My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

This DOESN'T mean get your asses in gear?




Are you just completely ignoring this part?

"It has to be the right deal," he said. "More than the money, we don't want to give up the wrong deal. We've all seen trades that really didn't make sense. We've got to make a trade that's meaningful."

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #105 on: December 20, 2005, 03:38:28 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


Wrong, again.  According to Drayton, widely regarded as having a limited understanding of baseball, he thinks they shouldnt do just any deal.  And besides, this is the season of talk (see also bullshit); last season, which was the put up or shut up, the team they put on the field won the National League pennant.





I never said they should make a deal just to make a deal.

"We've got to make a deal," McLane said.
"My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

This DOESN'T mean get your asses in gear?




Are you just completely ignoring this part?

"It has to be the right deal," he said. "More than the money, we don't want to give up the wrong deal. We've all seen trades that really didn't make sense. We've got to make a trade that's meaningful."





No why?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #106 on: December 20, 2005, 03:51:27 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Wrong, again.  According to Drayton, widely regarded as having a limited understanding of baseball, he thinks they shouldnt do just any deal.  And besides, this is the season of talk (see also bullshit); last season, which was the put up or shut up, the team they put on the field won the National League pennant.





I never said they should make a deal just to make a deal.

"We've got to make a deal," McLane said.
"My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

This DOESN'T mean get your asses in gear?




Are you just completely ignoring this part?

"It has to be the right deal," he said. "More than the money, we don't want to give up the wrong deal. We've all seen trades that really didn't make sense. We've got to make a trade that's meaningful."





No why?




Because by continuing to defend your statement that Purpura is "useless" you seem to be.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2005, 04:06:50 pm »

No why?




Because by continuing to defend your statement that Purpura is "useless" you seem to be.





I could care less if anyone agrees with my opinion of Purpura, so, no need to defend it.

Drayton would never use the the word Useless and I don't think he's ever used the "f" word, but he did say

"My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

I'm really saying about the same thing.
In MY own way. And out of frustration.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2005, 04:23:05 pm »
Quote:


I could care less if anyone agrees with my opinion of Purpura, so, no need to defend it.
...





All evidence to the contrary.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2005, 04:39:53 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


I could care less if anyone agrees with my opinion of Purpura, so, no need to defend it.
...





All evidence to the contrary.





Explaining what I said and defending what I said are different things.

But, what I said struck a nerve, and not just because it
was stupid and childish...hmmm
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #110 on: December 20, 2005, 04:40:24 pm »
Quote:

"My role is to really ignite Tim and Ricky and Paul Ricciarini and Tal to get something done."

I'm really saying about the same thing.
In MY own way. And out of frustration.





I don't read what McLane said and what you've written to mean the same thing.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #111 on: December 20, 2005, 04:42:19 pm »
Quote:

Explaining what I said and defending what I said are different things.




If you're into explaining, then please explain this:

How can Nomar be an acceptable deal and White an unacceptable deal? Both are significant injury risks, and while White's arm is asserted to be poor, we know nothing of Nomar's defensive skills as an outfielder.  Yes, Nomar's offensive upside is greater than White's; but White is more likely to be willing to play part-time, if necessary, and White is likely to cost half as much.

Or, in response to your assertion that "the ONLY good thing Purpura has done is NOT have a fire sale," please explain this:

I thought he signed Oswalt to a two-year deal and Berkman to a six-year deal last offseason. And cleared the way for Taveras and Lane to play full seasons, with at least modest success. And stuck with Ensberg when he batted .246 with two home runs in April, rather than reverting to the platoon that existed in previous seasons. There was no good in any of those decisions?

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #112 on: December 20, 2005, 04:48:40 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I could care less if anyone agrees with my opinion of Purpura, so, no need to defend it.
...





All evidence to the contrary.




Explaining what I said and defending what I said are different things.

But, what I said struck a nerve, and not just because it
was stupid and childish...hmmm




A nerve?  I don't think you understand.  This is Ground Zero for pounding on dumbass ideas.  This isn't talk radio where your opinion is solicitated to fill the space between commercials.  Nor is this a suitable forum to prance around declaring that you have an opinion which should be cherished in and of itself.  And by the way, what you're doing isnt explaining, it's reiterating.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #113 on: December 20, 2005, 04:59:22 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Explaining what I said and defending what I said are different things.




If you're into explaining, then please explain this:

How can Nomar be an acceptable deal and White an unacceptable deal? Both are significant injury risks, and while White's arm is asserted to be poor, we know nothing of Nomar's defensive skills as an outfielder.  Yes, Nomar's offensive upside is greater than White's; but White is more likely to be willing to play part-time, if necessary, and White is likely to cost half as much.


Or, in response to your assertion that "the ONLY good thing Purpura has done is NOT have a fire sale," please explain this:

I thought he signed Oswalt to a two-year deal and Berkman to a six-year deal last offseason. And cleared the way for Taveras and Lane to play full seasons, with at least modest success. And stuck with Ensberg when he batted .246 with two home runs in April, rather than reverting to the platoon that existed in previous seasons. There was no good in any of those decisions?




It's not that Nomar is sooo much batter than White.
It's more about, damn! why couldn't you close the Deal with Nomar, and is White the BEST you can come up with.

These guys were on the team, when he became GM.
I've said before he deserves credit for not having a fire sale, that includes holding on to the above mention guys.
Have I ever said anything negative about Ensberg? Except
for maybe his stance changing in the playoff. (I know now
he had an injury.)

Great, Purpura you've help establish and maintain a good core, now go get us a LF or another solid starter.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #114 on: December 20, 2005, 05:02:57 pm »
 
Quote:

why couldn't you close the Deal with Nomar  




 Answer

Can Purpura even make a French Dip sandwich?
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #115 on: December 20, 2005, 05:06:46 pm »
 This is Ground Zero for pounding on dumbass ideas.  




Saying Purpura is fucking useless, is dumbass.

Other than that I haven't suggested (recently) any trades
or signings that would be considered dumbass.

Saying the Astros can do better than White. Is that dumbass?
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So should Purp have done this just to "make a trade"?
« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2005, 05:09:00 pm »
 Speaking of trades that didn't happen, the Diamondbacks offered right-handed starter Javier Vazquez and reliever Jose Valverde to the Astros for closer Brad Lidge and second baseman/outfielder Chris Burke. The talks went nowhere. ...

 Link
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2005, 05:09:20 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

why couldn't you close the Deal with Nomar  




 Answer

Can Purpura even make a French Dip sandwich?






Yeah, it just seems there have been too many French Dip
sandwiches lately.
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Re: So should Purp have done this just to "make a trade"?
« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2005, 05:10:11 pm »
The talks went nowhere. ...

 Link




good!
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2005, 05:14:17 pm »
  It's more about, damn! why couldn't you close the Deal with Nomar, and is White the BEST you can come up with.

I've kind of been hit-n-miss in terms of reading this thread, so please forgive me if this has already been stated.

Short of offering Nomar $9-10M, maybe Nomar really just wanted to play for the Dodgers.  The guy is from there, and is a current resident of the area.  From what I understand the Astros made him a comparable offer.  Maybe Nomar made his mind up a long time ago and just used the Astros, along with NYY and CLE to get the most $$$ that he could.  If this was the case, then how could Pup be blamed for not "closing the Deal"?

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2005, 05:16:56 pm »

Short of offering Nomar $9-10M, maybe Nomar really just wanted to play for the Dodgers.  The guy is from there, and is a current resident of the area.  From what I understand the Astros made him a comparable offer.  Maybe Nomar made his mind up a long time ago and just used the Astros, along with NYY and CLE to get the most $$$ that he could.  If this was the case, then how could Pup be blamed for not "closing the Deal"?




Fine, what else you got up your sleeve Pup?
Is Rondell the best you can do? I hope not.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #121 on: December 20, 2005, 05:17:53 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

why couldn't you close the Deal with Nomar  




 Answer

Can Purpura even make a French Dip sandwich?





 Mmmmmm...??????
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #122 on: December 20, 2005, 05:20:20 pm »
Quote:


Short of offering Nomar $9-10M, maybe Nomar really just wanted to play for the Dodgers.  The guy is from there, and is a current resident of the area.  From what I understand the Astros made him a comparable offer.  Maybe Nomar made his mind up a long time ago and just used the Astros, along with NYY and CLE to get the most $$$ that he could.  If this was the case, then how could Pup be blamed for not "closing the Deal"?





Fine, what else you got up your sleeve Pup?
Is Rondell the best you can do? I hope not.




Ok then, back at you...who else is available via FAgency that you'd rather have than White?  And if the answer's "Nobody", then who would you be willing to give up in regards to the player you think is available.  Oh, and when you starting suggesting ideas, don't include any hitters from the Astros as trade bait, unless they're a sweetner, b/c the teams that have hitting to deal want quality pitching in return.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2005, 05:24:00 pm »
Quote:

This is Ground Zero for pounding on dumbass ideas.  




Saying Purpura is fucking useless, is dumbass.

Other than that I haven't suggested (recently) any trades
or signings that would be considered dumbass.

Saying the Astros can do better than White. Is that dumbass?




What is dumbass is saying that a GM is "useless" in any degree simply because he has not made a trade or a signing.  Especially when the GM clearly has an alternate strategy which was recently vindicated by putting a team on the field that went to the World Series. Also dumbass is pretending to agree that the team shouldnt make a trade for the sake of trading (or publicity) yet continuing to rant that they should.  The Astros have obviously not signed White and continue to explore trades.  What do you think you're adding by pontificating that they can do better?  Clearly, they are trying to do better.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2005, 05:28:07 pm »


Ok then, back at you...who else is available via FAgency that you'd rather have than White?  And if the answer's "Nobody", then who would you be willing to give up in regards to the player you think is available.  Oh, and when you starting suggesting ideas, don't include any hitters from the Astros as trade bait, unless they're a sweetner, b/c the teams that have hitting to deal want quality pitching in return.




FA available at one point this offseason?

Ramon Hernandez
Bengie Molina
Nomar


I understand the C situation, if signing Ausmus gives even a 10% better chance of signing Clemens in June, then i can live with it.

I'm thinking 3 of Qualls, Burke, Backe, Buscholtz
could fetch something pretty good.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #125 on: December 20, 2005, 05:32:22 pm »
Quote:



Ok then, back at you...who else is available via FAgency that you'd rather have than White?  And if the answer's "Nobody", then who would you be willing to give up in regards to the player you think is available.  Oh, and when you starting suggesting ideas, don't include any hitters from the Astros as trade bait, unless they're a sweetner, b/c the teams that have hitting to deal want quality pitching in return.





FA available at one point this offseason?

Ramon Hernandez
Bengie Molina
Nomar


I understand the C situation, if signing Ausmus gives even a 10% better chance of signing Clemens in June, then i can live with it.

I'm thinking 3 of Qualls, Burke, Backe, Buscholtz
could fetch something pretty good.




Backe has been mentioned several times in trade rumors.  Obviously the Astros dont think they've been offered anything significant in return.  Burke and Qualls similarly have been mentioned.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #126 on: December 20, 2005, 05:34:43 pm »

What is dumbass is saying that a GM is "useless" in any degree simply because he has not made a trade or a signing.  Especially when the GM clearly has an alternate strategy which was recently vindicated by putting a team on the field that went to the World Series. Also dumbass is pretending to agree that the team shouldnt make a trade for the sake of trading (or publicity) yet continuing to rant that they should.  The Astros have obviously not signed White and continue to explore trades.  What do you think you're adding by pontificating that they can do better?  Clearly, they are trying to do better.




A do nothing "Alternate strategy" Probably doesn't work next year.

"We need some offense," McLane said. "We overcame it many times last year, but ... with Roger or without Roger, we need offense. We wanted to sign a free agent because you don't have to give up as much. I thought we would get Garciaparra."
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #127 on: December 20, 2005, 05:37:06 pm »
Quote:



Ok then, back at you...who else is available via FAgency that you'd rather have than White?  And if the answer's "Nobody", then who would you be willing to give up in regards to the player you think is available.  Oh, and when you starting suggesting ideas, don't include any hitters from the Astros as trade bait, unless they're a sweetner, b/c the teams that have hitting to deal want quality pitching in return.





FA available at one point this offseason?

Ramon Hernandez
Bengie Molina
Nomar


I understand the C situation, if signing Ausmus gives even a 10% better chance of signing Clemens in June, then i can live with it.

I'm thinking 3 of Qualls, Burke, Backe, Buscholtz
could fetch something pretty good.




Ok, so the FAgents you listed have for all intensive purposes been ruled out.  Pup signed Ausmus in favor of both Hernandez and Molina due to his play behind the play and in part due to Clemens (as you've stated).  For all we know, Nomar was going to play in LA from day one, assuming they offered him a reasonable deal.

For one, I don't think there's any way that the Astros can afford to give up Backe right now.  So that leaves Qualls, Burke and Bucholtz.  You really think they can get a hitter that much better than White with that?  I'm not saying that Bucholtz doesn't have value, but it can't be much given his injury history.  Burke, as I've hinted at before, would be the proverbial sweetner.  So that leaves Qualls as the center piece.  Now I could see him as valuable, but how valuable.  Enough to obtain what kind of hitter?

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #128 on: December 20, 2005, 05:38:33 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



Ok then, back at you...who else is available via FAgency that you'd rather have than White?  And if the answer's "Nobody", then who would you be willing to give up in regards to the player you think is available.  Oh, and when you starting suggesting ideas, don't include any hitters from the Astros as trade bait, unless they're a sweetner, b/c the teams that have hitting to deal want quality pitching in return.





FA available at one point this offseason?

Ramon Hernandez
Bengie Molina
Nomar


I understand the C situation, if signing Ausmus gives even a 10% better chance of signing Clemens in June, then i can live with it.

I'm thinking 3 of Qualls, Burke, Backe, Buscholtz
could fetch something pretty good.




Ok, so the FAgents you listed have for all intensive purposes been ruled out.  Pup signed Ausmus in favor of both Hernandez and Molina due to his play behind the play and in part due to Clemens (as you've stated).  For all we know, Nomar was going to play in LA from day one, assuming they offered him a reasonable deal.

For one, I don't think there's any way that the Astros can afford to give up Backe right now.  So that leaves Qualls, Burke and Bucholtz.  You really think they can get a hitter that much better than White with that?  I'm not saying that Bucholtz doesn't have value, but it can't be much given his injury history.  Burke, as I've hinted at before, would be the proverbial sweetner.  So that leaves Qualls as the center piece.  Now I could see him as valuable, but how valuable.  Enough to obtain what kind of hitter?




He had been mentioned in the Mench deal.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #129 on: December 20, 2005, 05:41:56 pm »


For one, I don't think there's any way that the Astros can afford to give up Backe right now.  So that leaves Qualls, Burke and Bucholtz.  You really think they can get a hitter that much better than White with that?  I'm not saying that Bucholtz doesn't have value, but it can't be much given his injury history.  Burke, as I've hinted at before, would be the proverbial sweetner.  So that leaves Qualls as the center piece.  Now I could see him as valuable, but how valuable.  Enough to obtain what kind of hitter?




What do you suppose Drayton meant by this?

"There are two to four (trades) that we're talking about right now," McLane said. "One of them is really exciting, but I have no idea what will happen. We're ready to do it. It's a matter of getting it done."
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pravata

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #130 on: December 20, 2005, 05:42:01 pm »
Quote:


What is dumbass is saying that a GM is "useless" in any degree simply because he has not made a trade or a signing.  Especially when the GM clearly has an alternate strategy which was recently vindicated by putting a team on the field that went to the World Series. Also dumbass is pretending to agree that the team shouldnt make a trade for the sake of trading (or publicity) yet continuing to rant that they should.  The Astros have obviously not signed White and continue to explore trades.  What do you think you're adding by pontificating that they can do better?  Clearly, they are trying to do better.





A do nothing "Alternate strategy" Probably doesn't work next year.

"We need some offense," McLane said. "We overcame it many times last year, but ... with Roger or without Roger, we need offense. We wanted to sign a free agent because you don't have to give up as much. I thought we would get Garciaparra."




You're guessing arent you.   Garner, "I don't see our offense struggling as much as we did last year," he said. "Young guys are improved and they've had a year to play. Confidence has somethng to do with it. I expect us to be better. If things stayed this way right now, I'd be fine with that."
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #131 on: December 20, 2005, 05:44:57 pm »
Quote:

FA available at one point this offseason?

Ramon Hernandez
Bengie Molina
Nomar

I understand the C situation, if signing Ausmus gives even a 10% better chance of signing Clemens in June, then i can live with it.





Here's the list. Tell us who you think they should sign and how much you think they should sign him for:

Jeff Conine
Denny Hocking
Todd Hollandsworth
Brian Jordan
Eli Marrero
Reggie Sanders
B.J. Surhoff
Johnny Damon
Kenny Lofton
Bernie Williams
Preston Wilson
Danny Bautista
Jeromy Burnitz
Juan Encarnacion
Juan Gonzalez
Jeffrey Hammonds
Richard Hidalgo
Jacque Jones
Matt Lawton
Sammy Sosa
Michael Tucker
Gerald Williams
Rondell White

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #132 on: December 20, 2005, 05:45:12 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


What is dumbass is saying that a GM is "useless" in any degree simply because he has not made a trade or a signing.  Especially when the GM clearly has an alternate strategy which was recently vindicated by putting a team on the field that went to the World Series. Also dumbass is pretending to agree that the team shouldnt make a trade for the sake of trading (or publicity) yet continuing to rant that they should.  The Astros have obviously not signed White and continue to explore trades.  What do you think you're adding by pontificating that they can do better?  Clearly, they are trying to do better.





A do nothing "Alternate strategy" Probably doesn't work next year.

"We need some offense," McLane said. "We overcame it many times last year, but ... with Roger or without Roger, we need offense. We wanted to sign a free agent because you don't have to give up as much. I thought we would get Garciaparra."




You're guessing arent you.   Garner, "I don't see our offense struggling as much as we did last year," he said. "Young guys are improved and they've had a year to play. Confidence has somethng to do with it. I expect us to be better. If things stayed this way right now, I'd be fine with that."
The Link




And on that note, the Rangers new GM is asking for front line pitching for Mench and even more for Wilkerson.  He's taking a strong stance now but wait until he goes into ST with 4 starting OFs, unless they decide Laynce Nix is not in the team's future any longer...

edited to add...
this was stated prior to the Rangers trade for Adam Eaton for Chris Young and Termel Sledge.....
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #133 on: December 20, 2005, 05:51:00 pm »
You're guessing arent you.   Garner, "I don't see our offense struggling as much as we did last year," he said. "Young guys are improved and they've had a year to play. Confidence has somethng to do with it. I expect us to be better. If things stayed this way right now, I'd be fine with that."
The Link




I hold Garner's opionion A LOT higher than Draytons, but what's he going to say, Burke and Scott don't deserve
to be 100 ft from LF? He's too smart for that.

Roger said he would like to see the Astros get more offense, I tend to take that more as his honest opinion,
than Garner's.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #134 on: December 20, 2005, 05:51:54 pm »
Quote:

It's not that Nomar is sooo much batter than White.
It's more about, damn! why couldn't you close the Deal with Nomar, and is White the BEST you can come up with.





I haven't read that the Astros got really close and simply failed to close the deal with Nomar.  It sounds like he was Dodger-bound due to his roots in the area.  As for whether White is the best he can come up with, you've got the list now.  Share your ideas with us.

Quote:

These guys were on the team, when he became GM.
I've said before he deserves credit for not having a fire sale, that includes holding on to the above mention guys.





And for playing the guys rather than trying to fool around with them.  And for making sure Berkman is with the team for a long time, and Oswalt at least through next season.

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #135 on: December 20, 2005, 06:07:15 pm »
Quote:



For one, I don't think there's any way that the Astros can afford to give up Backe right now.  So that leaves Qualls, Burke and Bucholtz.  You really think they can get a hitter that much better than White with that?  I'm not saying that Bucholtz doesn't have value, but it can't be much given his injury history.  Burke, as I've hinted at before, would be the proverbial sweetner.  So that leaves Qualls as the center piece.  Now I could see him as valuable, but how valuable.  Enough to obtain what kind of hitter?





What do you suppose Drayton meant by this?

"There are two to four (trades) that we're talking about right now," McLane said. "One of them is really exciting, but I have no idea what will happen. We're ready to do it. It's a matter of getting it done."




I think he meant something like this:  "There's two to four (trades) that we've been talking about for weeks now.  You see, we've had a fair deal on the table for weeks now, but these fucking green-horn GMs haven't moved an inch off their lopsided, suck-ass proposals.  So in summary, we'd like to make a deal....hell, we've been looking high and low for a deal... but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for these gutless GMs to start lowering their cake-n-eat-it too demands."

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maybe I'm nuts
« Reply #136 on: December 20, 2005, 06:13:36 pm »
But I don't particularly want to see the Astros try an add another offensive player (unless it's Tejada replacing Everett, which no one thinks is going to happen).

I think that we have a pretty good outfield in Berkman, Taveras, and Lane.  And either Bagwell is going to be healthy or the Astros can start Lamb at first.  And if neither option works out, then you try Luke Scott at first.  Or the Astros can make a trade during the season.

I think that the offense will generally be fine next season.  Berkman will be healthy, Ensberg will be healthy.  

Instead, I think that the Astros need to focus on pitching.  If Roger doesn't come back in May, the Astros have a gaping hole in their rotation.  I don't know if Backe is a number 3 pitcher.  And based on last season, I would be concerned if the Astros were counting Astacio and Rodriguez (or two other minor league players) to be the fourth and fifth starters.  I would like to see the team make a trade for a starting pitcher.  As for the pen, Dotel is a great idea but if he is not available, I wouldn't stress too much about the pen.
Boom!

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #137 on: December 20, 2005, 06:27:03 pm »

I haven't read that the Astros got really close and simply failed to close the deal with Nomar.  It sounds like he was Dodger-bound due to his roots in the area.  As for whether White is the best he can come up with, you've got the list now.  Share your ideas with us.
--------------------------


I would have signed Ramon Hernandez, offer Ausmus a one year
deal with a lesser role.

Make a trade for one of the Tampa outfielders or Mench or Wilkerson, hopefully you can do that without losing
Backe.

Clemens, likes these moves and agrees to play in June, even
if Ausmus is not his personal catcher.
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Re: maybe I'm nuts
« Reply #138 on: December 20, 2005, 06:29:26 pm »
Quote:

But I don't particularly want to see the Astros try an add another offensive player (unless it's Tejada replacing Everett, which no one thinks is going to happen).

I think that we have a pretty good outfield in Berkman, Taveras, and Lane.  And either Bagwell is going to be healthy or the Astros can start Lamb at first.  And if neither option works out, then you try Luke Scott at first.  Or the Astros can make a trade during the season.

I think that the offense will generally be fine next season.  Berkman will be healthy, Ensberg will be healthy.  

Instead, I think that the Astros need to focus on pitching.  If Roger doesn't come back in May, the Astros have a gaping hole in their rotation.  I don't know if Backe is a number 3 pitcher.  And based on last season, I would be concerned if the Astros were counting Astacio and Rodriguez (or two other minor league players) to be the fourth and fifth starters.  I would like to see the team make a trade for a starting pitcher.  As for the pen, Dotel is a great idea but if he is not available, I wouldn't stress too much about the pen.





Yes, if you can't improve your offense, signing a Garland
would be great.
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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #139 on: December 20, 2005, 06:31:10 pm »
Quote:


I haven't read that the Astros got really close and simply failed to close the deal with Nomar.  It sounds like he was Dodger-bound due to his roots in the area.  As for whether White is the best he can come up with, you've got the list now.  Share your ideas with us.
--------------------------


I would have signed Ramon Hernandez, offer Ausmus a one year
deal with a lesser role.

Make a trade for one of the Tampa outfielders or Mench or Wilkerson, hopefully you can do that without losing
Backe.

Clemens, likes these moves and agrees to play in June, even
if Ausmus is not his personal catcher.





And then reality sets in and you find out that Ausmus wouldn't take the backup role (gone to Padres or BSox), Roger wouldn't sign without Ausmus (retires) and that Backe was the only player you could move to get Mench or Wilkerson (niether coming aboard via trade).  Hmmmm...so would you all of the sudden suck as a GM too?

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Re: Rondell White
« Reply #140 on: December 20, 2005, 06:38:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


I haven't read that the Astros got really close and simply failed to close the deal with Nomar.  It sounds like he was Dodger-bound due to his roots in the area.  As for whether White is the best he can come up with, you've got the list now.  Share your ideas with us.
--------------------------


I would have signed Ramon Hernandez, offer Ausmus a one year
deal with a lesser role.

Make a trade for one of the Tampa outfielders or Mench or Wilkerson, hopefully you can do that without losing
Backe.

Clemens, likes these moves and agrees to play in June, even
if Ausmus is not his personal catcher.





And then reality sets in and you find out that Ausmus wouldn't take the backup role (gone to Padres or BSox), Roger wouldn't sign without Ausmus (retires) and that Backe was the only player you could move to get Mench or Wilkerson (niether coming aboard via trade).  Hmmmm...so would you all of the sudden suck as a GM too?







Agreed. But you would still have Ramon Hernandez and Backe and I think the Rangers would be stupid not to except a Mench or Wilkerson for Qualls/and one or two of Astacio, Wandy, Buscholtz.
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