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astro pete

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I think this is a good thing
« on: November 08, 2005, 11:05:59 am »
Mark Cuban apparently was interested in purchasing the Pirates.  Pittsburgh was really impressive down the stretch; a lot of young players who never quit.  The LAST thing we needed was a bunch of young, hungry, scrappy players surrounding several all-stars in our division.

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Tralfaz

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2005, 11:15:07 am »
To bad we won't get to see his fat ass in uniform, sitting on the bench.
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hostros7

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2005, 11:19:04 am »
yeah, but then he would probably trade all his young scrappers for keith van horn right before the trade deadline, and we would still be ok.
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shortstop

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2005, 11:34:19 am »
I think that would be a great thing for baseball. No so sure it would be so good for the Astros. Cuban just won't be able to stand seeing the team outmanned and trolling in the bottom of the divison. He'll pump plenty cash into it ... whether that translates into wins is another question. Anyway, the article says they are not for sale. I hope that's just a smokescreen and the wheels are turning behind the scene.
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OldBlevins

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2005, 11:36:52 am »
I agree it probably wouldn't be good for the Astros.  But I also agree that it would be good for baseball.  I is a shame that a team with a rich history and a fantastic stadium like the Pirates should be mired in last place forever.
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Tralfaz

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2005, 12:12:47 pm »
Just because you throw money at it doesn't necessarily mean trouble. See the Mets, NY.
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astro pete

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2005, 01:07:57 pm »
Well, the Mets were shit to begin with, then contended for the Wild Card into September.  Pittsburgh has some nice players.
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pravata

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2005, 01:46:22 pm »
Quote:

Mark Cuban apparently was interested in purchasing the Pirates.  Pittsburgh was really impressive down the stretch; a lot of young players who never quit.  The LAST thing we needed was a bunch of young, hungry, scrappy players surrounding several all-stars in our division.

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Forget the Pirates, Mark Cuban is an idiot because he brings not only his money, he brings his arrogance.  Involved owners, except on rare occasions, fuck up the baseball side.  Now the Reds have been sold, pending.  That might make a difference.  Lindner nixed a deadline Griffey deal, he may have been meddling in other ways.  Getting him out might give them a chance too.
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astro pete

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2005, 01:54:30 pm »
Cuban is a lot of things, but an idiot isn't one of them.  From the outside looking in, he appears to be an outstanding NBA owner.  He turned a shitty franchise into annual contenders (a lot like Drayton did with the Astros, though the comparisons between the owners ends there).  The players and fans in Dallas seem to love him.  He could be a tremendous asset to Pittsburgh.

On the other hand, there is always the possibility that he will fuck things up tremendously there...
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pravata

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2005, 01:58:30 pm »
Quote:

Cuban is a lot of things, but an idiot isn't one of them.  From the outside looking in, he appears to be an outstanding NBA owner.  He turned a shitty franchise into annual contenders (a lot like Drayton did with the Astros, though the comparisons between the owners ends there).  The players and fans in Dallas seem to love him.  He could be a tremendous asset to Pittsburgh.

On the other hand, there is always the possibility that he will fuck things up tremendously there...



An idiot, to me, is a person who thinks they have expertise where they do not.  Cuban is not an expert in basketball, nor in baseball.  The only thing he offers is money.  Lots of people have money.  If he gives the team the money, hires intelligent baseball people, then sits where the cameras are pointed, he'll be a good owner.
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BizidyDizidy

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2005, 02:07:21 pm »
Same reason no business hires consultants - no one without specific industry expertise could possibly help run the operation.
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hostros7

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2005, 02:13:44 pm »
Cuban's greatest asset is his money, but he is no idiot.  He helped bring about the new stadium, and he "blings out" everything for their players...in the stadium, on the plane, etc etc.  He knows what makes basketball players tick.  Is it a coincidence they all drive cars like h2's with 45 tvs and 24 subwoofers and cuban put that type of crap in the locker room?  I think not.  players want to go there.  

I don't really know drayton's baseball knowledge, nor do I know cuban's.  I think they are both primarily fans.  Cuban is somewhat of a media whore, but he has turned their team into a winner and has made smart decisions (backed by his money) to do so.  I would guess his "meddling" doesn't permeate into team operations anymore than drayton's does (think huge amount of money he was willing to pay to beltran, and the knock down drag out over biggio with Hun...or i believe that to be rumored around here)
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Tralfaz

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2005, 02:18:18 pm »
Quote:

Well, the Mets were shit to begin with, then contended for the Wild Card into September.  Pittsburgh has some nice players.



The Mets had the third highest salery in 2005, behind only Yankville and Chowder Town.  Almost contending for the wildcard is causing nobody trouble.
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Ty in Tampa

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2005, 02:20:31 pm »
I agree with prav, Cuban's an idiot. If bling is why the players want to go there, then maybe that's why as good as they are, they still haven't sniffed a championship.
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astro pete

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2005, 02:26:56 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Well, the Mets were shit to begin with, then contended for the Wild Card into September.  Pittsburgh has some nice players.



The Mets had the third highest salery in 2005, behind only Yankville and Chowder Town.  Almost contending for the wildcard is causing nobody trouble.



That's not the point.  The point is to consider the impact of an increased payroll for a franchise that has a nice core of young players like the Pirates.
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pravata

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2005, 02:30:18 pm »
Quote:

Same reason no business hires consultants - no one without specific industry expertise could possibly help run the operation.



Have you ever been in a situation where the business you work for hired a consultant?
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BizidyDizidy

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2005, 02:31:57 pm »
Yep.
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astro pete

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2005, 02:33:16 pm »
Quote:

I agree with prav, Cuban's an idiot. If bling is why the players want to go there, then maybe that's why as good as they are, they still haven't sniffed a championship.



An idiot who turned the perennial doormat of the NBA into one of the league's most successful franchises over the last five years?
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Ty in Tampa

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2005, 02:37:08 pm »
Yes.
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pravata

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2005, 02:37:58 pm »
Quote:

Yep.



Then what in the hell are you talking about?
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BizidyDizidy

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2005, 02:39:40 pm »
I think that smart people who have expertise in a tangential realm can be helpful. You may disagree.
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Tralfaz

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2005, 02:44:22 pm »
Quote:


That's not the point.  The point is to consider the impact of an increased payroll for a franchise that has a nice core of young players like the Pirates.



It certainly wouldn't hurt them and they certainly have a few nice youngsters, but face it, they're not that close.  Big money can help add a superstar or two, which will definetly boost your gate, but is no formula for success.
Once again, see the Mets, NY.
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pravata

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2005, 02:49:45 pm »
Quote:

I think that smart people who have expertise in a tangential realm can be helpful. You may disagree.



Wholeheartedly.  But, as there are many consultants who make their living off of people who think as you, I concede I could be in the minority.
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astro pete

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2005, 03:27:49 pm »
Quote:


It certainly wouldn't hurt them and they certainly have a few nice youngsters, but face it, they're not that close.  Big money can help add a superstar or two, which will definetly boost your gate, but is no formula for success.
Once again, see the Mets, NY.



On the flip side, see the Astros, Houston.
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Tralfaz

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2005, 03:46:03 pm »
The Astros didn't buy team chemistry, the Mets try every year.
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astro pete

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2005, 04:00:08 pm »
Look, you can point to the Mets all you want as an example of how money doesn't guarantee anything.  They have had a very high payroll over the last few years and haven't won a damn thing.  They are an example of having  a lot of money and not knowing how to invest it wisely (are they still paying Mo Vaughn?).  But, if you have money and a front office that knows how to use it, a large payroll will be a major asset to your team.  Comparing Mark Cuban to the Mets' front office is baseless.

By the way, team chemistry is nice, but the Astros won the pennant because they had Pettitte and Clemens.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2005, 04:11:07 pm »
Quote:

Comparing Mark Cuban to the Mets' front office is baseless.



Shawn Bradley
Erick Dampier
and Keith Van Horn.... Granted it was Nellie or his son behind the moves but Cuban gave them the rubber stamp before hand.  I mention those 3 names as prime examples of the type of players you don't want when it comes time to play defense.  You could add Nowitzki, as his D is horrendous, but he can actually play on 1 end of the court.  And yeah, I used to live in Dallas and saw enough of the Mavs to know I will never be a fan of the Mavs no D style of play.  I'll believe the Lil General has righted the ship when they play D for an entire season, and not this zone crap....By the way, there are few teams with a team payroll as high as the Mavs.  The only team worse with a higher payroll is the Knicks.
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pravata

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2005, 04:12:23 pm »
Quote:

Look, you can point to the Mets all you want as an example of how money doesn't guarantee anything.  They have had a very high payroll over the last few years and haven't won a damn thing.  They are an example of having  a lot of money and not knowing how to invest it wisely (are they still paying Mo Vaughn?).  But, if you have money and a front office that knows how to use it, a large payroll will be a major asset to your team.  Comparing Mark Cuban to the Mets' front office is baseless.

By the way, team chemistry is nice, but the Astros won the pennant because they had Pettitte and Clemens.



OK then, see Cubs, Chi. And, the Astros won the pennant because they didn't panic when they were down.  And that requires trust in yourself and your teammates.

I'm skipping the part about how building a good baseball team is different from building a good basketball team.
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Tralfaz

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2005, 04:18:09 pm »
I am no Cuban/Mav's fan, that's for sure.  But baseless?  Throws huge dollars at the team to come up short every year, sounds pretty similar to me.  Not knowing how to invest wisely?  Who was that scruffy Canadian he didn't re-sign last year?  

You could have put AP and the Rocket on the Pirates and last year and got nowhere near what the Astros did.  Those two came hear because of more than money, and it manifested itself in two very bad ass back to back years and one Texas sized helping of team chemistry.
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T. J.

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2005, 04:25:21 pm »
Quote:

You could have put AP and the Rocket on the Pirates and last year and got nowhere near what the Astros did.  Those two came hear because of more than money



Yeah, you've got to believe the HEB burgers and steaks had something to do with it.
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astro pete

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2005, 04:50:53 pm »
I think it's interesting that the Mavericks have finished near the top of the league each of the last few years, and the only team that they're favorably compared to is the Knicks.  I'll be the first to admit I don't follow the NBA closely.  It actually took me awhile to figure out who the grizzly Canadian was.  But I'm smart enough to recognize where the Mavericks were before Cuban purchased the team, and where they are today.  In other words, you can't trick me into thinking they suck, or that somehow Mark Cuban shouldn't be considered one of the top owners in the NBA.

I say the comparison to the Mets is baseless because Cuban has been very successful (outside of reality television), while the Mets have not (though they have appeared to turn a corner).  I don't know where this notion of Cuban the idiot came from.  Actually, I probably do.  We see him officiating for the Harlem Globetrotters, arguing with referees on the court, and serving blizzards at Dairy Queen.  To say the least, he's not exactly a conventional owner.  But I also doubt there is an owner who is more popular in his market than Cuban; that there is a team that's had a larger resurgence in popularity than the Mavericks.  

Now, pravata brings up the painfully appropriate question: does this mean anything in baseball?  I have no idea.  Maybe it doesn't.  But, I'd rather not find out.  Everything the guy touches seems to turn to gold.  I'd rather he not do it again with the Pirates, and have to look up at them in the standings for the first time in a billion years.  Or even worse, entertain the possibility that Cam Bonifay could return.
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Tralfaz

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2005, 05:08:51 pm »
I actually don't care if the Pirates are good or bad.  The Cardinals were very good and we still took the NL Pennant.  What I really want, is to never have to see Mark Cubans bull shit antics polluting the National League Central.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2005, 05:13:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Same reason no business hires consultants - no one without specific industry expertise could possibly help run the operation.



Have you ever been in a situation where the business you work for hired a consultant?



Hey, they wanted to make Peter a supervisor in Office Space!
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astro pete

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2005, 05:16:56 pm »
Quote:

What I really want, is to never have to see Mark Cubans bull shit antics polluting the National League Central.



I certainly agree with that.
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Greg

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2005, 06:12:38 pm »


Mark Cuban IS an idiot because he fucking made the Benefactor... the worst tv show EVER created. I cant respect a man that is in a reality tv... Mark Cuban not only was in a reality tv show, he fucking stole the idea from an already terrible tv show and then made it revolve around himself and how awesome he is.

What a fucking joke.
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hostros7

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2005, 06:36:24 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Comparing Mark Cuban to the Mets' front office is baseless.



Shawn Bradley
Erick Dampier
and Keith Van Horn.... Granted it was Nellie or his son behind the moves but Cuban gave them the rubber stamp before hand.  I mention those 3 names as prime examples of the type of players you don't want when it comes time to play defense.  You could add Nowitzki, as his D is horrendous, but he can actually play on 1 end of the court.  And yeah, I used to live in Dallas and saw enough of the Mavs to know I will never be a fan of the Mavs no D style of play.  I'll believe the Lil General has righted the ship when they play D for an entire season, and not this zone crap....By the way, there are few teams with a team payroll as high as the Mavs.  The only team worse with a higher payroll is the Knicks.



this is a shit comparison to baseball personnel.  There are maybe 4 or 5 good centers in the NBA.  Most teams aren't going to get a premier center.  There isn't anything similar about personnel decisions in NBA and MLB in terms of the chemistry of a good team, and the complex equation of how weaker and stronger parts fit together to constitute a greater whole
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Ty in Tampa

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2005, 06:38:08 pm »
Plus, I don't hear too many people who have opinions stating that Mark Cuban is even part of what's good about basketball right now.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2005, 06:38:42 pm »
Quote:

Plus, I don't hear too many people who have opinions stating that Mark Cuban is even part of what's good about basketball right now.



Right...he's no Bobby Cox, that's for sure.
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Ty in Tampa

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2005, 06:40:16 pm »
No, he's ALL that's right about baseball.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2005, 08:26:51 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Comparing Mark Cuban to the Mets' front office is baseless.



Shawn Bradley
Erick Dampier
and Keith Van Horn.... Granted it was Nellie or his son behind the moves but Cuban gave them the rubber stamp before hand.  I mention those 3 names as prime examples of the type of players you don't want when it comes time to play defense.  You could add Nowitzki, as his D is horrendous, but he can actually play on 1 end of the court.  And yeah, I used to live in Dallas and saw enough of the Mavs to know I will never be a fan of the Mavs no D style of play.  I'll believe the Lil General has righted the ship when they play D for an entire season, and not this zone crap....By the way, there are few teams with a team payroll as high as the Mavs.  The only team worse with a higher payroll is the Knicks.



this is a shit comparison to baseball personnel.  There are maybe 4 or 5 good centers in the NBA.  Most teams aren't going to get a premier center.  There isn't anything similar about personnel decisions in NBA and MLB in terms of the chemistry of a good team, and the complex equation of how weaker and stronger parts fit together to constitute a greater whole



I'm going to need more information on your personal thesis on personnel decision making to respond on that point.  But to clarify, those weren't identified because they all play the same position, although last I checked Van Horn is a PF who is only significantly worse when asked to play C.  They were identified because of their horrendous contracts and the fact that Cuban had these 3 players along with Finley who accounted for the full salary cap figure in the NBA.  Now, most teams would be hamstrung by these players but Cuban scoffed at the notion of operating on some imposed budget and is way beyond the NBA salary cap.  

It's one thing to make smart decisions and it's something entirely different to spend so much money your mistakes don't hurt you, i.e. Yankees.  So, in essence you are saying that owners like Steinbrenner are good owners because they only care about winning as winning makes more money.  Fair enough but that doesn't require anyone to be very smart, only determined and very very rich.  

On the plus side, at least Cuban doesn't seek the limelight like Georgie boy.... oh wait, yes he does.  He's only run on the court during a game, tried his hand at some benefactor show, and still hosts his own "Mavs Fan" show (which those Dallas residents, who I no longer count myself among, can confirm is one of the lamest shows ever).  Okay, so maybe Cuban doesn't wine or throw as many tantrums... damn, wrong again.  He only has the record for the most fines in 1 season.  Cuban may not be an idiot but he is definitely an ass.
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T. J.

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Re: I think this is a good thing
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2005, 02:39:13 pm »
Bill Simmons (ESPN's "Sports Guy") interviews Mark Cuban on Page 2 today:  The Link

Lots of long-winded questions and answers, but interesting.  Lots of commentary on player salaries not being anybody's business but the players and owners.
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