Another steaming pile of RCAP...

[homer]

Borezilla speaks:

The Link

 

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This is where I have had some serious issues with other fans. Some of have said you don?t need offense out of your shortstop. After all, Everett finished the season as the eighth hitter and ?he wasn?t bad for an eighth hitter.? I don?t know how to break this to them, but no one has ever heard a scout say, ?I?ve got a beat on a great eighth hitter on this high school team in Florida.? Your eighth hitter is your worst hitter, so comparing him to other eighth hitters is worthless.

[Matt]

Think a scout ever said "Hey I got a shortstop down here in Florida with an outstanding glove."?

[DVauthrin]

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Borezilla speaks:

The Link

 

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This is where I have had some serious issues with other fans. Some of have said you don?t need offense out of your shortstop. After all, Everett finished the season as the eighth hitter and ?he wasn?t bad for an eighth hitter.? I don?t know how to break this to them, but no one has ever heard a scout say, ?I?ve got a beat on a great eighth hitter on this high school team in Florida.? Your eighth hitter is your worst hitter, so comparing him to other eighth hitters is worthless.

He still doesn't get it, and never will.   "Shocking".  And, furthermore, someone please enlighten me to all these awesome hitting shortstops, because there are very few of them.   Jeter, Tejada, Michael Young are really the only ones who have done it for a few years in a row now.   The rest are speedy mediocre pop guys like rollins/furcal and the cost of signing one of them to push willy into the 7th spot in the order is foolish for the team.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I thought the article sucked, it was poorly written and misconstrued opinion as facts. However, he's probably right about Adam Everett not getting any better offensively and offensively he's not doing much.

On a different note, it seems Ensberg took a lot of heat because he was counted on to produce, the team depended on him and he let the team down. Whereas, no one depended on Everett to produce at the level of Ensberg, so in that sense, he's less accountable for leaving men on base than Ensberg. Not quite equitable in my estimation but to quote Biggio, "that's baseball."

[hostros7]

Adam Everett can hit .275 which is good enough considering his defense, imo

[NeilT]

There are only 2 nat'l league ss w/ > 400 ABs who hit worse than Everett, Isturis and Guzman.  The Wilson sister's hitting was comparable.  Everett hit .273 in 2004, so maybe he will again, but the list of major league shortstops who hit at least .270 last year is a good bit longer than the list of shortstops who hit below .270.  When compared to the American League, using 400 ABs, Everett is last in avg.  Uribe is pretty comparable, as is R. Adams.  There's no real difference between them.

Everett plays great defense, but it's at an offensive cost when compared to most other shortstops in the league. I don't know what that means, except that you have to guess at how much better defense Everett plays when compared to any other major league shortstop.  It may be some better, but when you're giving up offense that's gotta be a substantial difference, doesn't it? If you really think Everett will hit better than .248, great, if you think his defense is worth it, great, but apparently last year Everett was one of the worst hitting shortstops in baseball, by a pretty real margin.

[HudsonHawk]

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 It may be some better, but when you're giving up offense that's gotta be a substantial difference, doesn't it?

No it doesn't.  This is the mistake that so many people make.  Defense NEVER "makes up for" or "offsets" a lack of offense.  And vice versa.  They are two distinctly separate phases of the game, totally unrelated.  The goal when picking someone to play SS is someone who can...well, play SS.  Defense is the criterium.  If he can hit too, well great.  If he can't, oh well, feel free to find another one who *can* hit.  But you don't sacrifice defense at SS to gain offense.

[hostros7]

Regardless of the numbers showing AE to be at the bottom of offensive SS categories, I am pretty sure the astros ranked near the bottom for LF and 1B as well.  Those 2 are areas where you upgrade offense far before you start fiddling with SS where we have one of the best defensive players in the game.  Hopefully, bagwell can provide some pop.  Lamb isn't an everyday player, imo.

[homer]

Where the wheels come off in Borezilla's analysis is comparing Adam Everett to the two best hitting shortstops in the league. Like his previous articles, he has yet to make any revelations. AE is a shitty hitter. Nomah and Jailbird are good hitters. No mystery there.

Your example of Uribe... of the world champion White Sox... is proof positive that you don't need some big hitter at shortstop to win. You need the big hitters to hit in order to win.

[Navin R Johnson]

what does RCAP stand for?

[Limey]

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Regardless of the numbers showing AE to be at the bottom of offensive SS categories, I am pretty sure the astros ranked near the bottom for LF and 1B as well.  Those 2 are areas where you upgrade offense far before you start fiddling with SS where we have one of the best defensive players in the game.  Hopefully, bagwell can provide some pop.  Lamb isn't an everyday player, imo.

IOW, same shit, different day.  We went through this crap with Barzilla before, but he's still engaging in necrophillia / beastiality.

[Limey]

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what does RCAP stand for?

Repeating Complete Arse Piss.

[BudGirl]

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what does RCAP stand for?

 History

[NeilT]

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 It may be some better, but when you're giving up offense that's gotta be a substantial difference, doesn't it?

No it doesn't.  This is the mistake that so many people make.  Defense NEVER "makes up for" or "offsets" a lack of offense.  And vice versa.  They are two distinctly separate phases of the game, totally unrelated.  The goal when picking someone to play SS is someone who can...well, play SS.  Defense is the criterium.  If he can hit too, well great.  If he can't, oh well, feel free to find another one who *can* hit.  But you don't sacrifice defense at SS to gain offense.

That always seems a bit rigid to me, but I'm not disagreeing:  if Everett is a substantially better defensive shortstop than any other major league shortstops, great, given the defensive importance of the position.  But you wouldn't, for instance, consider the defensive quality of your first baseman before you considered his offensive production.  Nor, all things being equal, would you play a lesser offensive player over a better offensive player unless you have some other reason.  Offense is almost always more important, isn't it?

I just don't have a sense of Everett's defense relative to other shortstops.  Is he better?  Probably.  Is he so much better that you would play him if a better hitter was available?  Isn't that the real question?  If Everett's defense is the same as the Wilson sister's, you flip a coin.  If Everett's defense is the same as Eckstein's, or only marginally better, you play Eckstein.  Unless, of course, you've added a DH for shortstop.

[HudsonHawk]

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But you wouldn't, for instance, consider the defensive quality of your first baseman before you considered his offensive production.

That's because 1B isn't nearly as important defensively nor as difficult to play competently as SS.

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Offense is almost always more important, isn't it?

No.  They way you win is to score more runs than your opponent.  Obviously you can't win a game 0-0, but history and experience has shown us that you win more consistently when you're better than the other team at preventing runs as opposed to being better at scoring them.

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I just don't have a sense of Everett's defense relative to other shortstops.  Is he better?  Probably.

He's much better.  If you can't see that, then I can't help you.

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If Everett's defense is the same as Eckstein's, or only marginally better, you play Eckstein.

Exactly.  And not just Eckstein, but anyone.  That's the point though.  Everett is WAY better than Eckstein, or just about anyone else in the league.  There are no better SS in the league than Adam Everett.

[astro pete]

I don't see how anyone can dismiss offense entirely when assessing a shortstop.  Whom would you rather have playing shortstop for the Astros in 2006: Alex Rodriguez or Adam Everett?

[Tralfaz]

I think Adam Everett suffered from a plain old shitty year.  Personally, and at the plate.  Since his family issues, dealing with his daughters surgery, he just looked distracted, mostly at the plate and even in the dugout.   There is still alot of offensive potential in his bat that hopefully will be back next year, erasing the cause for concern.  He had a tough year, see Morgan Ensberg 2004.

Hopefully next year he will be beyond the struggles and distratctions and he can get back to playing up to the potential that the Astros see in him, see Morgan Ensberg 2005.

[Limey]

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I don't see how anyone can dismiss offense entirely when assessing a shortstop.  Whom would you rather have playing shortstop for the Astros in 2006: Alex Rodriguez or Adam Everett?

Adam Everett.  Why?  Because you can't ignore the opportunity cost of paying A-Rod's mind-numbing salary.

[HudsonHawk]

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I don't see how anyone can dismiss offense entirely when assessing a shortstop.  Whom would you rather have playing shortstop for the Astros in 2006: Alex Rodriguez or Adam Everett?

Adam Everett.  I'd rather have ARod playing 3B.

[astro pete]

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I don't see how anyone can dismiss offense entirely when assessing a shortstop.  Whom would you rather have playing shortstop for the Astros in 2006: Alex Rodriguez or Adam Everett?

Adam Everett.  Why?  Because you can't ignore the opportunity cost of paying A-Rod's mind-numbing salary.

Sure, but the argument was that offense and defense are mutually exclusive, and when evaluating your shortstop offense doesn't matter.  Were salary not an issue, Rodriguez is the obvious choice.

[HudsonHawk]

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Sure, but the argument was that offense and defense are mutually exclusive, and when evaluating your shortstop offense doesn't matter.  Were salary not an issue, Rodriguez is the obvious choice.

Again, you're not understanding that how well a guy hits never enters into the equation of how well he plays SS.  When evaluating what players you want in your lineup and where they're going to play, you have to consider both.  But when you're talking about who's the better SS, Adam Everett is clearly better than ARod.

[astro pete]

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Again, you're not understanding that how well a guy hits never enters into the equation of how well he plays SS.  When evaluating what players you want in your lineup and where they're going to play, you have to consider both.  But when you're talking about who's the better SS, Adam Everett is clearly better than ARod.

Then we're talking about two different things.  You and I agree that Everett is the better shortstop.  This isn't the issue.  Where we disagree is whom we'd rather have playing shortstop for the Astros.  Give me a few more errors and 50 homeruns and 100 RBIs and I'm content.

[Limey]

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Sure, but the argument was that offense and defense are mutually exclusive, and when evaluating your shortstop offense doesn't matter.  Were salary not an issue, Rodriguez is the obvious choice.

I agree.  But then we're debating whether you'd prefer Everett over A-Rod on one's fantasy team.  If we, or more accurately, Barzilla, are debating whether you prefer Everett over A-Rod on the Astros, then the money factor has to be front and centre in the debate.

[BudGirl]

Seems to me, most want Everett playing shortstop and A-Rod hitting 8th.  Is that right?

Personally, I don't think A-Rod would be a good fit for this team of "good guys".  He seems to be too much of a "me me me" person.  After all, didn't the Rangers do better once he left?

[NeilT]

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But you wouldn't, for instance, consider the defensive quality of your first baseman before you considered his offensive production.

That's because 1B isn't nearly as important defensively nor as difficult to play competently as SS.

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Offense is almost always more important, isn't it?

No.  They way you win is to score more runs than your opponent.  Obviously you can't win a game 0-0, but history and experience has shown us that you win more consistently when you're better than the other team at preventing runs as opposed to being better at scoring them.

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I just don't have a sense of Everett's defense relative to other shortstops.  Is he better?  Probably.

He's much better.  If you can't see that, then I can't help you.

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If Everett's defense is the same as Eckstein's, or only marginally better, you play Eckstein.

Exactly.  And not just Eckstein, but anyone.  That's the point though.  Everett is WAY better than Eckstein, or just about anyone else in the league.  There are no better SS in the league than Adam Everett.

 

I never can figure out how to respond in bits without working forever, so I'll respond in whole. I keep thinking of James's defensive continuum:  P/C/Ss/Cf/2b/3b/Rf/Lf/1b/Dh.  That's how I remember it, anyway, the notion being that at some point defense becomes less important and offense more, depending on position. At Dh, defense doesn't matter.  At P, offense doesn't matter, or at least in the NL matters very, very little.  But the question with Eckstein/Everett isn't whether Everett's defense is better, but whether between two major league shortstops, neither of whom are clanks, are you giving up enough with Eckstein on defense to make up for what you're giving up with Everett at offense, so there's something of a balancing act.  I can't imagine, giving Tony LaRussa the choice, he'd make the same decision you made between Eckstein and Everett, and that's probably a defensible managerial call.  But I doubt LaRussa would go through much balancing one way or the other: he likes Eckstein better.  

On the offensive side, it's easy to see how the numbers would be appealing:  Eckstein scored 90 runs, with 61 RBI, Everett scored 58 runs with 54 RBI. But those numbers aren't really determinative, either.  Where did Eckstein bat? Who batted in front and behind him?  Was that a fluke year for Eckstein? But the Eckstein/Everett comparison isn't really too real, anyway.  For this season, it's the extreme.  If you're comparing, say, Everett and, say, Jose Reyes, you get a completely different picture by the numbers, and I don't see enough of Reyes to know which is better defensively.  The real problem with the Barzilla's argument, it seems to me, is that for an un-knowledgeable fan like me, I don't see enough of Everett vs Eckstein or Vizquel or Reyes, or have good enough judgment about what I'm seeing, to really know what Everett is worth defensively.  So yeah, you can't help unless I trust your judgment in these matters, which, believe it or not, I tend to do.  So for someone like me, or, apparently, Barzilla, it's easy to fall into the trap of offensive production.  

What you're saying, really, is that until you can judge a shortstop defensively, it's stupid to even think about offense. On the opposite extreme, until you can judge a 1st baseman offensively, it's stupid to even think about defense.  What Barzilla's done is thought about offense first and never thought about defense, in a position where defense matters more.  It's not that you would never think about offense, but it's a mistake to make that your argument.

[astro pete]

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Seems to me, most want Everett playing shortstop and A-Rod hitting 8th.  Is that right?

Personally, I don't think A-Rod would be a good fit for this team of "good guys".  He seems to be too much of a "me me me" person.  After all, didn't the Rangers do better once he left?

I recognize that using Rodriguez for the sake of comparison is inherent with flaws, but the whole point is that at some point offense does matter.  

The Rangers suck with or without Rodriguez, by the way.

[HudsonHawk]

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Give me a few more errors and 50 homeruns and 100 RBIs and I'm content.

I'm not.

[HudsonHawk]

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But the question with Eckstein/Everett isn't whether Everett's defense is better, but whether between two major league shortstops, neither of whom are clanks, are you giving up enough with Eckstein on defense to make up for what you're giving up with Everett at offense, so there's something of a balancing act.  

Again, we reach a major stumbling block in our understanding.  Offense NEVER makes up for lack of defense.  If that is any part of your premise, we're worlds apart.

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So yeah, you can't help unless I trust your judgment in these matters, which, believe it or not, I tend to do. So for someone like me, or, apparently, Barzilla, it's easy to fall into the trap of offensive production.

Offense isn't a trap.  It's necessary to win game.  The problem for people like Barzilla is understanding where it fits in and how much it matters.  To him, it's the only thing.  He simply takes for granted that good defense just happens.  He'd likely say something like "they're major leaguers so they're good enough, otherwise they wouldn't be major leaguers", which I've heard many times.  Aside from the fact that that's a circular argument, you could make the exact same one for offense.  Fact is, both would be false.  But people who espouse such simply don't have the understanding of the game and offense is easier to understand and simpler to quantify.

[Limey]

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Personally, I don't think A-Rod would be a good fit for this team of "good guys".  He seems to be too much of a "me me me" person.  After all, didn't the Rangers do better once he left?

I agree.  Also, one could argue that the Yankees got worse when he showed up.  After all they choked up a 3-0 lead over the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS that included A-Rod's hilarious bitch-slap at a ball while running the bases.  Can't find his 2004 playoff averages, but he hit .133* and slugged .200 in the ALDS vs. the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim of California of the United States this year.

* Somehow he had a .435 OBP though.  Curious.

[sporadic]

are yalls feelings about a SS like Furcal...better defensively and offensively than AE.  I'll duck now

[BudGirl]

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are yalls feelings about a SS like Furcal...better defensively and offensively than AE.  I'll duck now

I hate the Braves.  There are only a few players on that team I would want as an Astro.  He is not one of them.  Too much potential for off-field trouble.  I like the fact that the Astros are known for being good men.

[NeilT]

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But the question with Eckstein/Everett isn't whether Everett's defense is better, but whether between two major league shortstops, neither of whom are clanks, are you giving up enough with Eckstein on defense to make up for what you're giving up with Everett at offense, so there's something of a balancing act.  

Again, we reach a major stumbling block in our understanding.  Offense NEVER makes up for lack of defense.  If that is any part of your premise, we're worlds apart.

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So yeah, you can't help unless I trust your judgment in these matters, which, believe it or not, I tend to do. So for someone like me, or, apparently, Barzilla, it's easy to fall into the trap of offensive production.

Offense isn't a trap.  It's necessary to win game.  The problem for people like Barzilla is understanding where it fits in and how much it matters.  To him, it's the only thing.  He simply takes for granted that good defense just happens.  He'd likely say something like "they're major leaguers so they're good enough, otherwise they wouldn't be major leaguers", which I've heard many times.  Aside from the fact that that's a circular argument, you could make the exact same one for offense.  Fact is, both would be false.  But people who espouse such simply don't have the understanding of the game and offense is easier to understand and simpler to quantify.

Think about it in a slightly different way.  I'd suggest that for some managers, players can meet the defensive qualifications of a position without being Adam Everett.  Eckstein probably meets LaRussa's defensive requirements for shortstop, as, for instance, might Alex Roderiguez.  Once that manager's requirements are met, whatever they may be, LaRussa's going to play the shortstop with the best offense regardless of another player's marginally better defense. What I hear you saying is that the defensive requirements for some positions are never, ever high enough, and that between two players capable of playing major league shortstop, you would always choose the better defender.  

The argument that they're all major leaguers really isn't circular, exactly, because by definition they may all tend to meet the defensive requirements of the position.  Some managers may set the requirements higher, or lower, but you can at least tend to assume that if a player's playing, he's either the only thing the manager's got, or he's defensively good enough: he may not be the best, but good enough.  I guess the same thing goes for offense, doesn't it? You would always choose to play better if you had them, and you would never play someone who's incapable if you could help it, but at some level the difference between the defensive contribution of an Eckstein and an Everett and a Reyes is pretty hard to judge.

So between Eckstein and Everett, you (and I mean the Hudson Hawk you) would always play Everett because better defense at shortstop never becomes marginal.  For LaRussa, I assume it does, because I assume he would in fact play Eckstein over Everett (unless he just misjudges and thinks Eckstein the better defender).

[NeilT]

Or, to put it a slightly different way, offense never makes up for the lack of defense, but a lesser defensive player may not really lack defense even if there's a better defender around.

[sporadic]

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are yalls feelings about a SS like Furcal...better defensively and offensively than AE.  I'll duck now

I hate the Braves.  There are only a few players on that team I would want as an Astro.  He is not one of them.  Too much potential for off-field trouble.  I like the fact that the Astros are known for being good men.

He is too big an upgrade to ignore...I like the fact the Stros are good guys too, but as long as the team in general is not regarded as a bunch of thugs, I would be VERY CONTENT having Raphael Furcal around.  A guy like that will win games offensively and defensively.

[Curly]

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 It may be some better, but when you're giving up offense that's gotta be a substantial difference, doesn't it?

No it doesn't.  This is the mistake that so many people make.  Defense NEVER "makes up for" or "offsets" a lack of offense.  And vice versa.  They are two distinctly separate phases of the game, totally unrelated.  The goal when picking someone to play SS is someone who can...well, play SS.  Defense is the criterium.  If he can hit too, well great.  If he can't, oh well, feel free to find another one who *can* hit.  But you don't sacrifice defense at SS to gain offense.

Does the same hold true for catcher?  Do you sign a catcher that might cost you a run every other game with his bat but at the same time can keep runners at bay and potentially save you a run every game becuase of his arm?  I say yes.  Same goes for me at SS.  I don't expect offensive production from Everett.  I need him to take hits away in the gap and up the middle and to close down a rally with a DP.  Offense becomes the gravy on my mashed taters.

[sporadic]

 I need him to take hits away in the gap  



Only to throw the ball in the dugout.  I guess it boils down to I DO NOT LIKE AE!!!!  I think his approach at the plate (he is a true guesser) is piss poor, and his defense is not NEAR good enough to compensate.  He might be a gritty, tough, good guy, but he is not nearly as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for.

[jaklewein]

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I need him to take hits away in the gap  

Only to throw the ball in the dugout.  I guess it boils down to I DO NOT LIKE AE!!!!  I think his approach at the plate (he is a true guesser) is piss poor, and his defense is not NEAR good enough to compensate.  He might be a gritty, tough, good guy, but he is not nearly as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for.



You're out to lunch on the defense...After that post, I'm not even going to try and reason with you.  I don't see Everett getting shit-canned in favor of another SS, but if he does...it won't be long before you see the error of your ways.

[Taras Bulba]

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I need him to take hits away in the gap  

Only to throw the ball in the dugout.  I guess it boils down to I DO NOT LIKE AE!!!!  I think his approach at the plate (he is a true guesser) is piss poor, and his defense is not NEAR good enough to compensate.  He might be a gritty, tough, good guy, but he is not nearly as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for.



You don't think Everett is "as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for."  Fascinating.  Does the regard that Garner, Pupura, and the players have for Everett bear any standing with you?  Are you Howard from Memorial?

[sporadic]

Out to lunch on the defense??? my point is that AE is an above average defender, but he does have the tendancy to get scatter-armed (not on an everyday basis, but more regularly than a "great" shortstop would), and he is not nearly good enough at the plate to justify not upgrading him if someone better (in this case MUCH BETTER)is available...FURCAL.  He looked LOST at the plate in the post season when pitchers were not overlooking him, as they may do in the reg. season.

[sporadic]

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I need him to take hits away in the gap  

Only to throw the ball in the dugout.  I guess it boils down to I DO NOT LIKE AE!!!!  I think his approach at the plate (he is a true guesser) is piss poor, and his defense is not NEAR good enough to compensate.  He might be a gritty, tough, good guy, but he is not nearly as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for.

You don't think Everett is "as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for."  Fascinating.  Does the regard that Garner, Pupura, and the players have for Everett bear any standing with you?  Are you Howard from Memorial?



None whatsoever...I know what I saw this year...I saw a player who was above average in the field and a liability at the plate.  If he was as good defensively as yall like to think I might not dislike him so much.  If you have an opportunity to get better in a position (both from a defensive and offensive standpoint) you do it..That is, if you are truly commited to winning.

[Dobro]

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Offense NEVER makes up for lack of defense.

That's your opinion.  There are many decision makers in MLB who disagree with you.

[sporadic]

I AM NOT SAYING IT DOES...I am saying that Furcal is better defensively and offensively than AE.

[sporadic]

sorry, I just realized that was not directed at me...my bad.  I am getting a little bit flustered here.  It seems people like to say that they would rather have a weak hitting SS instead of a capable SS (AROD) who is a monster at the plate or an incredible SS who is very good at the plate (Furcal).  Puzzling to me.

[jaklewein]

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Out to lunch on the defense??? my point is that AE is an above average defender, but he does have the tendancy to get scatter-armed (not on an everyday basis, but more regularly than a "great" shortstop would), and he is not nearly good enough at the plate to justify not upgrading him if someone better (in this case MUCH BETTER)is available...FURCAL.  He looked LOST at the plate in the post season when pitchers were not overlooking him, as they may do in the reg. season.

You've got me laughing now.  Have you even seen Furcal play?  He's the SS that's scatter-armed...he's been that way for years.  Quit now...Furcal is not a better SS, at least not defensively.  I've watched both play on a pretty regular basis and I'm taking Everett in the field, any day of the week.

[sporadic]

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Out to lunch on the defense??? my point is that AE is an above average defender, but he does have the tendancy to get scatter-armed (not on an everyday basis, but more regularly than a "great" shortstop would), and he is not nearly good enough at the plate to justify not upgrading him if someone better (in this case MUCH BETTER)is available...FURCAL.  He looked LOST at the plate in the post season when pitchers were not overlooking him, as they may do in the reg. season.

You've got me laughing now.  Have you even seen Furcal play?  He's the SS that's scatter-armed...he's been that way for years.  Quit now...Furcal is not a better SS, at least not defensively.  I've watched both play on a pretty regular basis and I'm taking Everett in the field, any day of the week.

I'm glad I am entertaining you...you laugh about an argument that a perenial all-star is better than Adam freaking Everett...you must be very easily entertained.  I guess now is an opportune time to let you hear some of my best knock-knock jokes.

[T. J.]

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I AM NOT SAYING IT DOES...I am saying that Furcal is better defensively and offensively than AE.

How can you say this?  This year, you  might be able to make the argument that Furcal had a better defensive showing than AE, but just barely.  

AE:  150 games, 14 errors, .978 fielding%, 4.19 range factor
Furcal:  152 games, 15 errors, .981 field%, 4.99 range factor

But for the past few years, AE blows Furcal away defensively.  Furcal had 31 errors (2nd most in the league, most by a SS)/.959 FP% in 2003 (AE 17/.970) and 24 errors/.962 FP% in 2004 (AE 10/.977).

If you don't think Adam Everett is a great defensive shortstop, you're just not watching the games.

[ASTROCREEP]

You don't think Everett is "as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for."  Fascinating.  Does the regard that Garner, Pupura, and the players have for Everett bear any standing with you?  Are you Howard from Memorial?




Who votes for Gold Glove awards? Coaches and Managers right?(I'm not sure)
But AE hasn't won one, and unless AE can get on a Visquel or Ozzie type Gold Glove streak, I think the Astros can do better.

Oh, and the "you think you know better than the GM" argument is total Bullshit. What's the point of a forum
like this if we can't question the GM or Manager.

[sporadic]

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I AM NOT SAYING IT DOES...I am saying that Furcal is better defensively and offensively than AE.

How can you say this?  This year, you  might be able to make the argument that Furcal had a better defensive showing than AE, but just barely.  

AE:  150 games, 14 errors, .978 fielding%, 4.19 range factor
Furcal:  152 games, 15 errors, .981 field%, 4.99 range factor

But for the past few years, AE blows Furcal away defensively.  Furcal had 31 errors/.959 FP% in 2003 (AE 17/.970) and 24 errors/.962 FP% in 2004 (AE 10/.977).

If you don't think Adam Everett is a great defensive shortstop, you're just not watching the games.

Great job on the stats...but I do not see AE throwing people out from the grass in Left Field while on his knees.  The upside for Furcal is much greater than AE.  I never said AE was not a good SS, he just does not have the tools Furcal does.  And this is just my opinion...I have no stats to back it up, as you seem to have but I DO watch games, I HAVE seen a lot both (I watch the Braves when not watching the Stros).  And I just do not understand why AE is put on such a pedastal.  He does nothing outside what a good MLB SS should do.  I never catch myself saying "man this guy is one of the best SS I have ever seen" while watching AE, while I have made that comment out loud watching some of the plays Furcal has made.  Better Range, Better arm, Better bat, Probably equal, if not better, glovework.  If Furcal would have been an Astro his whole carreer and AE was with Atl, would we be having this conversation the other way around?  Would we rather have AE than Furcal?  I don't see it.  I see a bunch of fans that like a player, a whole lot, and that is clouding their judgement.

[hostros7]

not to mention $$$$ differential...AE is a bargain compared to furcal

If we are going to spend money it needs to go to an upgrade at pitcher or in the OF, not for a small (if we concede the debate) improvement at SS

[sporadic]

THAT Is a VERY valid argument.

[sporadic]

While I do not think there is a slight upgrade between the two, I completely understand that SS is not where we should spend money (if we are limiting ourself to a set payroll number, as the Stros usually do).  I have a tendency to want it all.  I am a HUGE Cowboys fan...I did not mind character issues when players give it their all on the field (ala Michael Irvin, Leon Lett, Nate Newton).  Baseball is so much different...no salary cap.  If we spend money every time there is a chance to upgrade we will get better.  People will fill the stadium.  Profits are made, championship banners hung.  Everyone is happy.

[BudGirl]

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If we spend money every time there is a chance to upgrade we will get better.  People will fill the stadium.  Profits are made, championship banners hung.  

I disagree with this.  I point to the New York Yankees as evidence.  The team needs to be a team.  Amazing that the Astros did not have th best players at the positions, yet still get to hang a championship banner.  A team wins baseball games, not individuals.

[T. J.]

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Great job on the stats...but I do not see AE throwing people out from the grass in Left Field while on his knees.

This is because he's making the same play from the same spot on his feet.  He gets to the ball so quickly and smoothly that he doesn't have to make the "spectacular" play.  (Although he has plenty of those too.)

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  The upside for Furcal is much greater than AE.

Questionable, but possible.  

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  I never said AE was not a good SS, he just does not have the tools Furcal does.  

No, you said "Furcal is better defensively and offensively than AE".  I will grant you he has better offensive numbers.  I think what I and others here are saying is that AE is better defensively (much better, in my opinion) and this outweighs his offensive shortcomings.

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He does nothing outside what a good MLB SS should do.  I never catch myself saying "man this guy is one of the best SS I have ever seen" while watching AE, while I have made that comment out loud watching some of the plays Furcal has made.  Better Range, Better arm, Better bat, Probably equal, if not better, glovework.  

You're obviously watching more Braves games then...

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If Furcal would have been an Astro his whole carreer and AE was with Atl, would we be having this conversation the other way around?  Would we rather have AE than Furcal?  I don't see it.  I see a bunch of fans that like a player, a whole lot, and that is clouding their judgement.

I dunno.  I like defense, especially from the shortstop position.  I think you're confusing a great arm (which Furcal most definitely has) with great defense.  AE makes all the plays, and makes them look easy.

[NeilT]

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If we spend money every time there is a chance to upgrade we will get better.  People will fill the stadium.  Profits are made, championship banners hung.  Everyone is happy.

People do fill the stadium.  Championship banners are hung.  Most of us are ecstatic.  I don't know about getting better, and I don't know about profits being made.

[sporadic]

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If we spend money every time there is a chance to upgrade we will get better.  People will fill the stadium.  Profits are made, championship banners hung.  

I disagree with this.  I point to the New York Yankees as evidence.  The team needs to be a team.  Amazing that the Astros did not have th best players at the positions, yet still get to hang a championship banner.  A team wins baseball games, not individuals.

Great indivisuals with the team in mind win games.  NY did not spend money WISELY.  I think getting a player of Furcals ability is a wise expenditure.  And nine players with the ability of AE and Ausmus at their respective positions (and I really like Ausmus)will not win Shit. The Astros looked like a team of destiny this year because they were winning with sup-par talent (inthe field, not pitching)...do you really want to rely on just grit every year, or do you want some studs out there?

[HudsonHawk]

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are yalls feelings about a SS like Furcal...better defensively and offensively than AE.  I'll duck now

Furcal is not better than Everett defesnively.

[sporadic]

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If we spend money every time there is a chance to upgrade we will get better.  People will fill the stadium.  Profits are made, championship banners hung.  Everyone is happy.

People do fill the stadium.

Only when they win...Houston fans are and always will be crap.  We follow winners.  If the Astros go into a multi year slump, people will not show up...watch what happens with the Texans.  We keep the sqad we got now, and we will be staring mediocrity right in the face.  And this town will not wait for a multi-year rebuilding phase...people will not show up to watch.  We have got to improve now...any way we can.  If anyone in here thinks we can keep the same team and get to the WS next year is completely delusional.

[sporadic]

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are yalls feelings about a SS like Furcal...better defensively and offensively than AE.  I'll duck now

Furcal is not better than Everett defesnively.

This is your opinion, and you have every right to it, but I just do not see how you can make that statement.  I do not like Atlanta...I watch them because I watch sports on TV (almost excluseively), and Atlanta is on almost nightly, so I have watched them both, and I really think Furcal is a far bigger asset to Atl than AE is to Houston.  And if people in baseball think as highly of AE as people in here do, we should be able to get a better outfielder or pitcher for him, but I cannot imagine think sentiment for him in the baseball world (other than this forum) is very high.

[mihoba]

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There are only 2 nat'l league ss w/ > 400 ABs who hit worse than Everett, Isturis and Guzman.  The Wilson sister's hitting was comparable.  Everett hit .273 in 2004, so maybe he will again, but the list of major league shortstops who hit at least .270 last year is a good bit longer than the list of shortstops who hit below .270.  When compared to the American League, using 400 ABs, Everett is last in avg.  Uribe is pretty comparable, as is R. Adams.  There's no real difference between them.

Everett plays great defense, but it's at an offensive cost when compared to most other shortstops in the league. I don't know what that means, except that you have to guess at how much better defense Everett plays when compared to any other major league shortstop.  It may be some better, but when you're giving up offense that's gotta be a substantial difference, doesn't it? If you really think Everett will hit better than .248, great, if you think his defense is worth it, great, but apparently last year Everett was one of the worst hitting shortstops in baseball, by a pretty real margin.

Hitting is not the only offensive stat. Baserunning is in there also. AE was 5th in the NL in stolen bases at the SS position. A fast SS is better than a slow SS.

Note: I just wanted to give my two cents. AE had a down year offensively. This was his first  full year in the show without injuries, so maybe he just tired out in the end. I like AE alot, and IMO he is NOT even remotely a problem or a reason to try and upgrade the SS position.

[NeilT]

We were 15 and 30, and I didn't see any great fall off in attendance.  Even if you're right, though, the Astros win, don't they?

[NeilT]

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There are only 2 nat'l league ss w/ > 400 ABs who hit worse than Everett, Isturis and Guzman.  The Wilson sister's hitting was comparable.  Everett hit .273 in 2004, so maybe he will again, but the list of major league shortstops who hit at least .270 last year is a good bit longer than the list of shortstops who hit below .270.  When compared to the American League, using 400 ABs, Everett is last in avg.  Uribe is pretty comparable, as is R. Adams.  There's no real difference between them.

Everett plays great defense, but it's at an offensive cost when compared to most other shortstops in the league. I don't know what that means, except that you have to guess at how much better defense Everett plays when compared to any other major league shortstop.  It may be some better, but when you're giving up offense that's gotta be a substantial difference, doesn't it? If you really think Everett will hit better than .248, great, if you think his defense is worth it, great, but apparently last year Everett was one of the worst hitting shortstops in baseball, by a pretty real margin.

Hitting is not the only offensive stat. Baserunning is in there also. AE was 5th in the NL in stolen bases at the SS position. A fast SS is better than a slow SS.

Note: I just wanted to give my two cents. AE had a down year offensively. This was his first  full year in the show without injuries, so maybe he just tired out in the end. I like AE alot, and IMO he is NOT even remotely a problem or a reason to try and upgrade the SS position.

I like AE alot, too, and I wouldn't replace him.  But some of my posts are just trying to figure out whether I like AE for real reasons or just because I do, and some of it's just to try to figure out exactly what it is that bothers me about what Hudson is saying.  I think I know, now, so I'll shut up about it.  At least until next time.

[astro pete]

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This is because he's making the same play from the same spot on his feet.  He gets to the ball so quickly and smoothly that he doesn't have to make the "spectacular" play.  (Although he has plenty of those too.)

You're nuts.  Everett is not getting behind the balls that Furcal has to dive for.  The major difference between the two defensively is that Furcal is known for making outstanding plays using his feet and arm, but fucking up the routine play.  Everett is a better shortstop than Furcal for this reason.  However, Furcal has become more solid over the last couple of years and has closed the gap on Everett defensively.  He is now a very good defensive shortstop.  

If money were no issue, Furcal would look good in an Astros uniform.

[sporadic]

They are a terriffic franchise, win loss wise.  With the W-L record of the last ten years, we should be selling out games every night.  Houston is Houston, not Milwaukee or Cincinatti or Pittsburgh...we have enough people to sell out a 40K person staddium, and we do not on a regular basis (regular season).  Try getting a ticket for a regular season Red Sox Game...we do not have a great hometown fan base for such a GREAT franchise.  I went to the dome as a kid when there was NOBODY there...I do not want to see that happen again.

[NeilT]

I have bought tickets for regular season Red Sox games, not very good ones, but I've bought them.  Fenway, as I recall, seats about 35000.  I'd guess for most nights this season the Astros come close to that.

I'd suggest that the reason Fenway fills is that for most of the season there's nothing else to do in Boston.  Idiots.

[BudGirl]

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If we spend money every time there is a chance to upgrade we will get better.  People will fill the stadium.  Profits are made, championship banners hung.  

I disagree with this.  I point to the New York Yankees as evidence.  The team needs to be a team.  Amazing that the Astros did not have th best players at the positions, yet still get to hang a championship banner.  A team wins baseball games, not individuals.

Great indivisuals with the team in mind win games.  NY did not spend money WISELY.  I think getting a player of Furcals ability is a wise expenditure.  And nine players with the ability of AE and Ausmus at their respective positions (and I really like Ausmus)will not win Shit. The Astros looked like a team of destiny this year because they were winning with sup-par talent (inthe field, not pitching)...do you really want to rely on just grit every year, or do you want some studs out there?

My team has some studs on it.  Berkman is a stud.

If I were to pick a short stop out of the league to replace Everett with, it would be Young from the Rangers.

And yes, I like gritty players.

[astro pete]

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I'd suggest that the reason Fenway fills is that for most of the season there's nothing else to do in Boston.  Idiots.

Exactly right.  I live in Boston now, and Boston sucks.  Fenway is cool, though.

[sporadic]

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This is because he's making the same play from the same spot on his feet.  He gets to the ball so quickly and smoothly that he doesn't have to make the "spectacular" play.  (Although he has plenty of those too.)

You're nuts.  Everett is not getting behind the balls that Furcal has to dive for.  The major difference between the two defensively is that Furcal is known for making outstanding plays using his feet and arm, but fucking up the routine play.  Everett is a better shortstop than Furcal for this reason.  However, Furcal has become more solid over the last couple of years and has closed the gap on Everett defensively.  He is now a very good defensive shortstop.  

If money were no issue, Furcal would look good in an Astros uniform.

Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

[LonghornCDR]

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...I am a HUGE Cowboys fan...

I think we've identified the underlying problem.

[T. J.]

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I have bought tickets for regular season Red Sox games, not very good ones, but I've bought them.  

I have too.  Once.  And I will never make that mistake again.  What a dump Fenway is.  Yes it's pretty inside, yes it's got a big wall, blah, blah, blah....  It's also got teeny tiny hard-as-hell seats, obstructed views from nearly every angle, no concessions to speak of, no beer guys, and you have to sit there with people from Boston.

Give me Minute Maid any day of the week, and a doubleheader on Sundays (if they played doubleheaders anymore, that is.)

[HudsonHawk]

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The argument that they're all major leaguers really isn't circular, exactly, because by definition they may all tend to meet the defensive requirements of the position. Some managers may set the requirements higher, or lower, but you can at least tend to assume that if a player's playing, he's either the only thing the manager's got, or he's defensively good enough: he may not be the best, but good enough.

That's an entirely circular argument.  Reminds me of Eric the Viking:

"The only reason for the looting to pay for the next expidition and the ONLY reason for the next expedition is the looting".

At any rate, you could make this same argument for offense.  A guy wouldn't make it to the majors unless he was a competent hitter.  There may be some small degree of difference, but at that level, everyone can hit.  It's the same exact argument and it's BS.  

BTW, check your PM

[NeilT]

I liked Fenway ok, I think, but I couldn't separate it from the Red Sox fans who were yelling anti-Yankees struff at an A's game.  Idiots.

If I ever go again, I'll pay the $$ for some pretty good seats and see if it's better.  I hope that the team does a good job with the make-over:  Otherwise I have to say I'd rather go to Wrigley.

[astro pete]

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Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

Your characterization of Everett may be an accurate description of the way he played in the World Series.  He was not very good defensively, and he was atrocious at the plate.  It does not, however, describe the way he played all year.  He is very good defensively.  And, if you cannot recall any quality at-bats from AE this postseason, you must have missed the NLCS.

[sporadic]

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...I am a HUGE Cowboys fan...

I think we've identified the underlying problem.

AHHHH...another Cowboy hater appears.  I NEVER hear anything like that.  And if you knew me, you would know my underlying problems run rampant.

[NeilT]

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The argument that they're all major leaguers really isn't circular, exactly, because by definition they may all tend to meet the defensive requirements of the position. Some managers may set the requirements higher, or lower, but you can at least tend to assume that if a player's playing, he's either the only thing the manager's got, or he's defensively good enough: he may not be the best, but good enough.

That's an entirely circular argument.  Reminds me of Eric the Viking:

"The only reason for the looting to pay for the next expidition and the ONLY reason for the next expedition is the looting".

At any rate, you could make this same argument for offense.  A guy wouldn't make it to the majors unless he was a competent hitter.  There may be some small degree of difference, but at that level, everyone can hit.  It's the same exact argument and it's BS.  

BTW, check your PM

Yeah, well.  I'm a HUGE Vikings fan.

[HudsonHawk]

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This is your opinion, and you have every right to it, but I just do not see how you can make that statement.  I do not like Atlanta...I watch them because I watch sports on TV (almost excluseively), and Atlanta is on almost nightly, so I have watched them both, and I really think Furcal is a far bigger asset to Atl than AE is to Houston.  

I don't see how you can watch Furcal and Everett and come to the conclusion that Furcal is better.  Furcal has a stronger arm, but there's more to it than that.  I'd take AE over Furcal everyday and twice on Sundays.

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And if people in baseball think as highly of AE as people in here do, we should be able to get a better outfielder or pitcher for him, but I cannot imagine think sentiment for him in the baseball world (other than this forum) is very high.

What's that supposed to mean?  They shouldn't trade Everett period.  And you're wrong about no one outside of Houston thinking highly of him.

[sporadic]

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Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

Your characterization of Everett may be an accurate description of the way he played in the World Series.  He was not very good defensively, and he was atrocious at the plate.  It does not, however, describe the way he played all year.  He is very good defensively.  And, if you cannot recall any quality at-bats from AE this postseason, you must have missed the NLCS.

No, I watched every game...and do not remember anything special.  I remember his average being inflated by exploding bat grounders and weak singles when it did not matter.  I remember pitiful at-bats when pitchers actually put thought in their approach to getting him out.

[HudsonHawk]

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Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

I think he laid down a nice squeeze bunt...but yeah, I agree he was lost at the plate in the playoffs.  But that doesn't matter.  What matters is he played great SS overall.  He made some plays that most SS don't make, including turning the DP to end Game 4 of the NCLS

[sporadic]

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This is your opinion, and you have every right to it, but I just do not see how you can make that statement.  I do not like Atlanta...I watch them because I watch sports on TV (almost excluseively), and Atlanta is on almost nightly, so I have watched them both, and I really think Furcal is a far bigger asset to Atl than AE is to Houston.  

I don't see how you can watch Furcal and Everett and come to the conclusion that Furcal is better.  Furcal has a stronger arm, but there's more to it than that.  I'd take AE over Furcal everyday and twice on Sundays.

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And if people in baseball think as highly of AE as people in here do, we should be able to get a better outfielder or pitcher for him, but I cannot imagine think sentiment for him in the baseball world (other than this forum) is very high.

What's that supposed to mean?  They shouldn't trade Everett period.  And you're wrong about no one outside of Houston thinking highly of him.

Great quote from "A Few Good Men"...brought a tear to my eye...and I do not know that the demand for him as a free agent would be all that high (not like it will be for Furcal)...this being sais, how are you RIGHT about his demand outside of Houston?  That cannot even be proven until AE is on the trading block or a free agent.  Great argument, one that cannot be proven or disproven...you must have been a masterful debator...or a masterdebator.

[HudsonHawk]

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Great quote from "A Few Good Men"...brought a tear to my eye...and I do not know that the demand for him as a free agent would be all that high (not like it will be for Furcal)...this being sais, how are you RIGHT about his demand outside of Houston?  That cannot even be proven until AE is on the trading block or a free agent.  Great argument, one that cannot be proven or disproven...you must have been a masterful debator...or a masterdebator.

I didn't say anything about demand, I said he's highly thought of outside of Houston.  As to how to "prove" that, it's simple, talk to people outside of Houston to get their opinions.  I guess something that simple never crossed your mind though.

[MikeyBoy]

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Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

Your characterization of Everett may be an accurate description of the way he played in the World Series.  He was not very good defensively, and he was atrocious at the plate.  It does not, however, describe the way he played all year.  He is very good defensively.  And, if you cannot recall any quality at-bats from AE this postseason, you must have missed the NLCS.

No, I watched every game...and do not remember anything special.  I remember his average being inflated by exploding bat grounders and weak singles when it did not matter.  I remember pitiful at-bats when pitchers actually put thought in their approach to getting him out.

I find it hard to believe that you watched every game, from reading your posts I'd say all of your conclusions about AE are based on the World Series. That or you have no fucking clue what it is you're watching.

[sporadic]

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Great quote from "A Few Good Men"...brought a tear to my eye...and I do not know that the demand for him as a free agent would be all that high (not like it will be for Furcal)...this being sais, how are you RIGHT about his demand outside of Houston?  That cannot even be proven until AE is on the trading block or a free agent.  Great argument, one that cannot be proven or disproven...you must have been a masterful debator...or a masterdebator.

I didn't say anything about demand, I said he's highly thought of outside of Houston.  As to how to "prove" that, it's simple, talk to people outside of Houston to get their opinions.  I guess something that simple never crossed your mind though. [/quote

Dude...now that's just mean.  I never discounted anyones opinion.   I never have been a short-sided person, only a realist.  All I wanted to know was why people thought so highly of a AE as a COMPLETE player.  I say AGAIN...I see him for what he is...an above average defensive SS and a below average bat.  With Furcal you get an above average SS and a great bat (as far as SS go)

[sporadic]

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Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

Your characterization of Everett may be an accurate description of the way he played in the World Series.  He was not very good defensively, and he was atrocious at the plate.  It does not, however, describe the way he played all year.  He is very good defensively.  And, if you cannot recall any quality at-bats from AE this postseason, you must have missed the NLCS.

No, I watched every game...and do not remember anything special.  I remember his average being inflated by exploding bat grounders and weak singles when it did not matter.  I remember pitiful at-bats when pitchers actually put thought in their approach to getting him out.

I find it hard to believe that you watched every game, from reading your posts I'd say all of your conclusions about AE are based on the World Series. That or you have no fucking clue what it is you're watching.

That's correct...I'm just here to pick fights with people over the computer.  I have never even played baseball, or any other sport for that matter.

[MikeyBoy]

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but he is not nearly as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for.

It's not just in here,  Link , and please try and look past the author.

[WulawHorn]

He did watch most games all year long and not just in the playoffs, I can vouch for that.

He hates AE- what are you going to do about it but shrug your shoulders?

I think that we could definately find an upgrade for Everett the run producer fairly easily.  I think it'd be hard to upgrade his glove, but I side with Neil T more than HH.

However, I think looking to replace Everett is silly  b/c to do so you'd have to spend about 8 million more than you are right now, and for 8 million you would do better getting a stud in the OF.

This team can win with really good pithcing and Ausmus, Everett pitcher at the back end of the lineup provided that we have some mashers like Kent and Beltran.  Or, we can win with outstanding, otherworldy pitching, good D up the middle and the shallow liineup we had this year.

Unfortunately, I don't see us upgrading our lineup and I have a hard time believing we will get the pitching we did for this season again next season.  I think the stros are going to have to improve their lineup to win the pennant again, but the last place I would look to start the offensive upgrade at this year would be SS.

[WulawHorn]

Can't look past author

[sporadic]

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but he is not nearly as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for.

It's not just in here,  Link , and please try and look past the author.

That is hardly ammunition...a Houston writer's opinion?  Like I said, lets compare the Free agent $ Furcal gets to that of AE's in the future.  Otherwise, like I said, I hope the guy proves me wrong and becomes the premier SS in all of MLB.

[Taras Bulba]

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You don't think Everett is "as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for."  Fascinating.  Does the regard that Garner, Pupura, and the players have for Everett bear any standing with you?  Are you Howard from Memorial?

Who votes for Gold Glove awards? Coaches and Managers right?(I'm not sure)
But AE hasn't won one, and unless AE can get on a Visquel or Ozzie type Gold Glove streak, I think the Astros can do better.

Oh, and the "you think you know better than the GM" argument is total Bullshit. What's the point of a forum
like this if we can't question the GM or Manager.



I don't think anyone is preventing you from questioning "the GM or Manager."  I tend to refrain from thinking I know how to improve upon the decisions of professionals who have spent their careers evaluating talent, but that's just me.  The Astros "can do better" at any number of positions--the question is and will forever involve the trade off of cost, not only in terms of budget but in team chemistry.  Despite what many think, Everett is highly regarded by his teammates and peers and is looked upon as a leader on the team.  It would be a big suprise if he wears another team's uniform.

[MikeyBoy]

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Can't look past author

I understand, but I was referring to the quotes by Biggio/Mansolino/Garner/Ausmus. I thought the article was dead on, though.

[MikeyBoy]

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but he is not nearly as good as everyone in here likes to give him credit for.

It's not just in here,  Link , and please try and look past the author.

That is hardly ammunition...a Houston writer's opinion?  Like I said, lets compare the Free agent $ Furcal gets to that of AE's in the future.  Otherwise, like I said, I hope the guy proves me wrong and becomes the premier SS in all of MLB.

Furcal will always bring more in the FA market, but that doesn't make your assessment of AE any more correct.

[T. J.]

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Can't look past author

I understand, but I was referring to the quotes by Biggio/Mansolino/Garner/Ausmus. I thought the article was dead on, though.

Well, I'm on AE's side, but you've got to take Biggio's comment "He's the best I've ever played with", into context.  Biggio's shortstop teammates have been Julio Lugo, Tim Bogar, Ricky Gutierrez, Orlando Miller, Andujar Cedeno, Eric Yelding...  Did I forget anybody?  Not exactly Ozzie Smiths, if you know what I mean.  (Although I liked Lugo.)

[Andyzipp]

Lugo is actually a real good example of trading defense for offense.

Anyone remember the 2001 playoffs?

[HudsonHawk]

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Dude...now that's just mean.  I never discounted anyones opinion.   I never have been a short-sided person, only a realist.  All I wanted to know was why people thought so highly of a AE as a COMPLETE player.  I say AGAIN...I see him for what he is...an above average defensive SS and a below average bat.  With Furcal you get an above average SS and a great bat (as far as SS go)

One, we were discussing AE as a defensive SS.  You claim Furcal is better.  I say he's not.  This "COMPLETE player" is you backpeddling.  Secondly, I dont' think Furcal is an above-average defensive SS.  I think he's below average.

[NeilT]

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I think that we could definately find an upgrade for Everett the run producer fairly easily.  I think it'd be hard to upgrade his glove, but I side with Neil T more than HH.
 

That's really dangerous.  Between me and HH, I'd go with HH everytime. I'm not even sure I agree with me.  Hell, I'm not even sure what I said.

[T. J.]

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Lugo is actually a real good example of trading defense for offense.

Anyone remember the 2001 playoffs?

The past two years had fuzzified that memory for me...thanks for the reminder of Lugo costing the Astros two games though.

[sporadic]

I tried not to let my disdain for AE to get in the way in this discussion, but I guess it did, since my argument was obviously crap.  According to the consensus of the group, as well as Houston sportswriters and Craig Biggio, we should start reserving AE's space in Cooperstown.  I call em like I see 'em, and I saw mostly crap on the offensive end...if that makes me a bad fan, or a person who does not know shit about baseball in all of your eyes, so be it.  I choose not to wear rose colored glasses and see my team for more than what it is.  Does anyone in here really think that we would NOT have gone to the WS with Furcal on the team?  Our team as a whole would not be better?  AE was a part of a group that did the improbable...from 15-30 to the National League champs.  Lets not get ahead of ourselves here...we cannot rely on teams like this to produce seasons like we just had.  I think we are probably better off with a discounted AE and upgrading other areas (pitching and OF)...but I am living in a fantasy world...I want both.  I am not letting a Homer-mentality misjudge my team.  Furcal is a free agent SS with great offensive numbers, we need offense, AE is not a very productive offensive SS.  Seemed like a good enough topic of conversation to me.

[T. J.]

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Furcal is a free agent SS with great offensive numbers, we need offense, AE is not a very productive offensive SS.  Seemed like a good enough topic of conversation to me.

I think you're right - it was and is a good topic.  It just seems that most of us think AE is a better defensive shortstop than you do.

How about this:  Could the Astros sign Furcal and put him at second?  He's said he'd consider it if the Mets signed him.  The Link

Move Biggio back to left?

Taveras CF
Furcal 2B
Berkman 1B
Ensberg 3B
Lane RF
Biggio LF
Everett SS
Ausmus (or whoever) C
Pitcher

Pipe dream?  Can Biggio handle left again?

[NeilT]

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Furcal is a free agent SS with great offensive numbers, we need offense, AE is not a very productive offensive SS.  Seemed like a good enough topic of conversation to me.

I think you're right - it was and is a good topic.  It just seems that most of us think AE is a better defensive shortstop than you do.

How about this:  Could the Astros sign Furcal and put him at second?  He's said he'd consider it if the Mets signed him.  The Link

Move Biggio back to left?

Taveras CF
Furcal 2B
Berkman 1B
Ensberg 3B
Lane RF
Biggio LF
Everett SS
Ausmus (or whoever) C
Pitcher

Pipe dream?  Can Biggio handle left again?

Biggio couldn't handle left the first time.  He fell apart in left, and was horrible offensively while he was out there.  He was far better in center than in left.

[HudsonHawk]

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According to the consensus of the group, as well as Houston sportswriters and Craig Biggio, we should start reserving AE's space in Cooperstown.

See, this is where your bullshit gets old and people start to think you're a real dumbass.

[sporadic]

I can live with that...when AE hits, he has shown some flashes of power, I just hate his approach.  Maybe that will change.  Maybe more O around him would help.  I do not think adding a player like Furcal would do anything but help your team.  But since this will never happen, as Biggio will be buried at 2nd base @ MMPUS we should not get our hopes up.  And adding Biggio back to the OF would not exactly help as I believe we need to UPGRADE the OF too, not throw Bidge out there.  As a 2B he is above average at the plate, while barely average as an OF.  If any position changes are to be made, I would like to upgrade or stay put offesnively, not downgrade.

[HudsonHawk]

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As a 2B he is above average at the plate, while barely average as an OF.

*SIGH*  He is the same offensive player regardless of where he plays in the field.

[sporadic]

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According to the consensus of the group, as well as Houston sportswriters and Craig Biggio, we should start reserving AE's space in Cooperstown.

See, this is where your bullshit gets old and people start to think you're a real dumbass.

I have never once called anyone a name for having an opinion different than my own.  All I have done is bring up a topic and ask people to help me understand why they feel a cretain way.  You are coming across like a know-it-all asshole...I'll take dumbass any day.

[HudsonHawk]

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I'll take dumbass any day.

That's your perogative.

[BudGirl]

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Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

Your characterization of Everett may be an accurate description of the way he played in the World Series.  He was not very good defensively, and he was atrocious at the plate.  It does not, however, describe the way he played all year.  He is very good defensively.  And, if you cannot recall any quality at-bats from AE this postseason, you must have missed the NLCS.

No, I watched every game...and do not remember anything special.  I remember his average being inflated by exploding bat grounders and weak singles when it did not matter.  I remember pitiful at-bats when pitchers actually put thought in their approach to getting him out.

Classic.  He got hits, just at the wrong time.

[sporadic]

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I'll take dumbass any day.

That's your perogative.

Once again showing your true colors.  Glad to see you are capable of mature conversation.

[HudsonHawk]

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I'll take dumbass any day.

That's your perogative.

Once again showing your true colors.  Glad to see you are capable of mature conversation.

Don't question my maturity son.

[sporadic]

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Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

Your characterization of Everett may be an accurate description of the way he played in the World Series.  He was not very good defensively, and he was atrocious at the plate.  It does not, however, describe the way he played all year.  He is very good defensively.  And, if you cannot recall any quality at-bats from AE this postseason, you must have missed the NLCS.

No, I watched every game...and do not remember anything special.  I remember his average being inflated by exploding bat grounders and weak singles when it did not matter.  I remember pitiful at-bats when pitchers actually put thought in their approach to getting him out.

Classic.  He got hits, just at the wrong time.

I did not mean for it to come across in that manner.  I meant that he was pitched to in more unimprtant situations (two outs, nobody on base) differently.  They gave him more to hit with nobody on (knowing the pitcher was up next) knowing he probably was not going to hurt them deep or for extra bases.  Thus the "worthless" singles.  Singles when a pitcher is grinding on you, giving you tougher pitches with men in scoring position are a different stroy all together.

[sporadic]

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I'll take dumbass any day.

That's your perogative.

Once again showing your true colors.  Glad to see you are capable of mature conversation.

Don't question my maturity son.

I question the maturity of your posts.  And I am not your son.  Why would you refer to me in such a derogitory manner, not even knowing who I am?

[BudGirl]

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Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

Your characterization of Everett may be an accurate description of the way he played in the World Series.  He was not very good defensively, and he was atrocious at the plate.  It does not, however, describe the way he played all year.  He is very good defensively.  And, if you cannot recall any quality at-bats from AE this postseason, you must have missed the NLCS.

No, I watched every game...and do not remember anything special.  I remember his average being inflated by exploding bat grounders and weak singles when it did not matter.  I remember pitiful at-bats when pitchers actually put thought in their approach to getting him out.

Classic.  He got hits, just at the wrong time.

I did not mean for it to come across in that manner.  I meant that he was pitched to in more unimprtant situations (two outs, nobody on base) differently.  They gave him more to hit with nobody on (knowing the pitcher was up next) knowing he probably was not going to hurt them deep or for extra bases.  Thus the "worthless" singles.  Singles when a pitcher is grinding on you, giving you tougher pitches with men in scoring position are a different stroy all together.

Every player gets pitched to differently in certain situations.

Why aren't you mad Berkman didn't have more rbi's?  He came up to bat with men on base quite regularly and they didn't score.

[sporadic]

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Money is an issue, so we will never see Furcal in an Astros uniform.  I guess the plays that are NOT routine is what sticks in my mind...thus making me think more highly of Furcal.  Maybe the grass is greener on the other side, maybe not.  But when I see a shortstop make a lousy throw on a routine play in a big game and then have putrid at bats after putrid at bat...it makes me think of upgrading him.  Could I at least get someone to agree wit me on the fact that AE looked completely overmatched by postseason pitchers.  I cannot recall many "quality" at bats.

Your characterization of Everett may be an accurate description of the way he played in the World Series.  He was not very good defensively, and he was atrocious at the plate.  It does not, however, describe the way he played all year.  He is very good defensively.  And, if you cannot recall any quality at-bats from AE this postseason, you must have missed the NLCS.

No, I watched every game...and do not remember anything special.  I remember his average being inflated by exploding bat grounders and weak singles when it did not matter.  I remember pitiful at-bats when pitchers actually put thought in their approach to getting him out.

Classic.  He got hits, just at the wrong time.

I did not mean for it to come across in that manner.  I meant that he was pitched to in more unimprtant situations (two outs, nobody on base) differently.  They gave him more to hit with nobody on (knowing the pitcher was up next) knowing he probably was not going to hurt them deep or for extra bases.  Thus the "worthless" singles.  Singles when a pitcher is grinding on you, giving you tougher pitches with men in scoring position are a different stroy all together.

Every player gets pitched to differently in certain situations.

Why aren't you mad Berkman didn't have more rbi's?  He came up to bat with men on base quite regularly and they didn't score.

Because Berkman's approach was and always is good.  He hit the ball hard...pitchers gave him NOTHING with men on, knowing he was one of the only people that could hurt them.

[HudsonHawk]

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I question the maturity of your posts.

Don't make me beat you with my cane.

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Why would you refer to me in such a derogitory manner, not even knowing who I am?

How do you know I dont' know who you are?

[sporadic]

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I question the maturity of your posts.

Don't make me beat you with my cane.

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Why would you refer to me in such a derogitory manner, not even knowing who I am?

How do you know I dont' know who you are?

1.  Don't make me break your hip
2.  If you knew who I was you would not call me son.

[HudsonHawk]

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2.  If you knew who I was you would not call me son.

Don't be so sure, Junior.

[MikeyBoy]

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 They gave him more to hit with nobody on (knowing the pitcher was up next) knowing he probably was not going to hurt them deep or for extra bases.

He only had 17 at-bats in the 8 hole, I thought you watched every game?

 

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Singles when a pitcher is grinding on you, giving you tougher pitches with men in scoring position are a different stroy all together.  

 

He hit .281 with runners in scoring position, or is there another story you're referencing?

[sporadic]

Junior???  You are way off base.  Your Houses of the Holy picture tells me your not old enough for a cane...unless you are one of those REALLY burnt out hippies.  That's what makes all of this so confusing.  You act like a prick, but your apparent affection for Zepplin gives you some cool points.  I must say I am at a loss.

[NeilT]

Does anybody know when pitchers and catchers report?

[sporadic]

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 They gave him more to hit with nobody on (knowing the pitcher was up next) knowing he probably was not going to hurt them deep or for extra bases.

He only had 17 at-bats in the 8 hole, I thought you watched every game?

 

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Singles when a pitcher is grinding on you, giving you tougher pitches with men in scoring position are a different stroy all together.  

 

He hit .281 with runners in scoring position, or is there another story you're referencing?

You are right again...he is the man.  He looked great at the plate in the post-season, as he did all year.  I thought the Astros hit a buck nothing with RISP...I guess without AE we were even worse off offensively.  How many RBI did he have?

[BudGirl]

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 They gave him more to hit with nobody on (knowing the pitcher was up next) knowing he probably was not going to hurt them deep or for extra bases.

He only had 17 at-bats in the 8 hole, I thought you watched every game?

 

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Singles when a pitcher is grinding on you, giving you tougher pitches with men in scoring position are a different stroy all together.  

 

He hit .281 with runners in scoring position, or is there another story you're referencing?

You are right again...he is the man.  He looked great at the plate in the post-season, as he did all year.  I thought the Astros hit a buck nothing with RISP...I guess without AE we were even worse off offensively.  How many RBI did he have?

How many did Ensberg have?

[sporadic]

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Does anybody know when pitchers and catchers report?

Nope...I will go with approx. on week before everyone else.  I am assuming this is being shown as proof to my lack of baseball knowledge, or is this an actual question?

[BudGirl]

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Does anybody know when pitchers and catchers report?

Not soon enough.  I miss my Bradley.

[sporadic]

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 They gave him more to hit with nobody on (knowing the pitcher was up next) knowing he probably was not going to hurt them deep or for extra bases.

He only had 17 at-bats in the 8 hole, I thought you watched every game?

 

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Singles when a pitcher is grinding on you, giving you tougher pitches with men in scoring position are a different stroy all together.  

 

He hit .281 with runners in scoring position, or is there another story you're referencing?

You are right again...he is the man.  He looked great at the plate in the post-season, as he did all year.  I thought the Astros hit a buck nothing with RISP...I guess without AE we were even worse off offensively.  How many RBI did he have?

How many did Ensberg have?

Not nearly enough...he looked poor to, but he did not play well after getting plunked.  Leads me to believe he may have been injured.  But Moberg carried the offense while Berkman was out...makes me cut him some slack.

[sporadic]

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 They gave him more to hit with nobody on (knowing the pitcher was up next) knowing he probably was not going to hurt them deep or for extra bases.

He only had 17 at-bats in the 8 hole, I thought you watched every game?

 

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Singles when a pitcher is grinding on you, giving you tougher pitches with men in scoring position are a different stroy all together.  

 

He hit .281 with runners in scoring position, or is there another story you're referencing?

You are right again...he is the man.  He looked great at the plate in the post-season, as he did all year.  I thought the Astros hit a buck nothing with RISP...I guess without AE we were even worse off offensively.  How many RBI did he have?

How many did Ensberg have?

Not nearly enough...he looked poor to, but he did not play well after getting plunked.  Leads me to believe he may have been injured.  But Moberg carried the offense while Berkman was out...makes me cut him some slack.

By the way, I was not being sarcastic...I do not know how many RBI AE had...I really would like to know if my argument is off base.

[Andyzipp]

54

[sporadic]

Not bad for a SS.  Still does not change my mind comparing him to Furcal.  But, like I said, we won't make taht change anyway...not for the kind of $$$ Furcal vs. the $ paid to AE.  I just hope AE makes me eat my words one day.

[NeilT]

I think he means in the post season.  3 total rbi, 3 runs.  He actually hit pretty well in the NLCS, lousy in the World Series.  I think you can get his stats here:

The Link

[stubbyc]

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Offense NEVER makes up for lack of defense.

That's your opinion.  There are many decision makers in MLB who disagree with you.

All decision makers in MLB would be more accurate. Or at least the vast majority.

Choosing A-Rod over Everett at shortstop is unadulturated bullshit. A-Rod plays more than a competent shortstop and he's ridiculously better offensively.

I really hope HH isn't saying that he'd take Ensberg out of the lineup before Everett. You *might* make a case that you should put A-Rod at 2b and take Biggio out before replacing Everett at SS.

[stubbyc]

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I AM NOT SAYING IT DOES...I am saying that Furcal is better defensively and offensively than AE.

Everett's a better defensive shortstop than Furcal.

[Navin R Johnson]

Is there any shortstop past or present that some of you would take over Everett?   Geez, there is enough Everett knob polishing on this thread to force the TZ to get some sort of SOB license.

[sporadic]

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I AM NOT SAYING IT DOES...I am saying that Furcal is better defensively and offensively than AE.

Everett's a better defensive shortstop than Furcal.

I guess I don't understand that because I feel Furcal has better range, arm strength and greater ability for outs that AE cannot get (deep in the hole, off balance, etc).  I have seen that little man rob way more hits than AE.  Granted, the play on Cathead up the middle in the NLCS by AE was great, as well as the game ending DP, but I think Furcal makes those plays also.

[sporadic]

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Is there any shortstop past or present that some of you would take over Everett?   Geez, there is enough Everett knob polishing on this thread to force the TZ to get some sort of SOB license.

I am glad someone else pointed that out.  That is my point...he is beloved here for no real reason (other than doing an above average job at short defensively)

[Limey]

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Lugo is actually a real good example of trading defense for offense.

Anyone remember the 2001 playoffs?

Mitch Meluskey.  End of debate.

[HudsonHawk]

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Junior???  You are way off base.  Your Houses of the Holy picture tells me your not old enough for a cane...unless you are one of those REALLY burnt out hippies.  That's what makes all of this so confusing.  You act like a prick, but your apparent affection for Zepplin gives you some cool points.  I must say I am at a loss.

Cool points?

[HudsonHawk]

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I am assuming this is being shown as proof to my lack of baseball knowledge, or is this an actual question?

This was a "*sigh* it's going to be a long offseason" remark.

[sporadic]

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Junior???  You are way off base.  Your Houses of the Holy picture tells me your not old enough for a cane...unless you are one of those REALLY burnt out hippies.  That's what makes all of this so confusing.  You act like a prick, but your apparent affection for Zepplin gives you some cool points.  I must say I am at a loss.

Cool points?

Yes sir...cool points.  Your obvious knowledge of good music gets you a couple.  Get you another couple thousand and you'll be right up there with me.

[HudsonHawk]

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All decision makers in MLB would be more accurate. Or at least the vast majority.

In the immortal words of MusicMan...how many times do you have to get your ass kicked before you realize you're not Bruce Lee?

You wail on about how no GM would ever have a guy hitting .240 play SS or catcher, yet there they are, .240 hitting catchers and SSs.  You just normally drop out of the conversation at this point.  I assume you will now too.

[stubbyc]

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All decision makers in MLB would be more accurate. Or at least the vast majority.

In the immortal words of MusicMan...how many times do you have to get your ass kicked before you realize you're not Bruce Lee?

You wail on about how no GM would ever have a guy hitting .240 play SS or catcher, yet there they are, .240 hitting catchers and SSs.  You just normally drop out of the conversation at this point.  I assume you will now too.

I've never said anything of the sort. I will say that no GM would rather have Adam Everett than Alex Rodriguez if they could pick 1 of the 2.

[HudsonHawk]

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Yes sir...cool points.  Your obvious knowledge of good music gets you a couple.  Get you another couple thousand and you'll be right up there with me.

What else nets you "cool points"?  I used to drive a '75 Nova.  How many does that get me?

[sporadic]

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All decision makers in MLB would be more accurate. Or at least the vast majority.

In the immortal words of MusicMan...how many times do you have to get your ass kicked before you realize you're not Bruce Lee?

You wail on about how no GM would ever have a guy hitting .240 play SS or catcher, yet there they are, .240 hitting catchers and SSs.  You just normally drop out of the conversation at this point.  I assume you will now too.

I love that Bruce Lee Quote...I think I can relate.  I have no problem with a SS or Catcher hitting .240.  I would rather one not follow the other in the order, though.

[HudsonHawk]

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I've never said anything of the sort.

Yes you have.

[stubbyc]

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I've never said anything of the sort.

Yes you have.

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You wail on about how no GM would ever have a guy hitting .240 play SS or catcher, yet there they are, .240 hitting catchers and SSs.

I've never said that no GM would have a guy hitting .240 play SS or catcher.

[NeilT]

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Does anybody know when pitchers and catchers report?

Nope...I will go with approx. on week before everyone else.  I am assuming this is being shown as proof to my lack of baseball knowledge, or is this an actual question?

Look, nobody has less baseball knowledge than I do, and if you think you do, i'm going to start calling you names. I don't know when they report. It was a joke. I do know that when they report, life will be blissful and complete, and I will quit asking my wife every night if there's a baseball game on tv.  My dog will be more loyal, my children smarter and more agreeable, and my wine sweeter, or drier since that's my preference.  It is a long off-season, and until something happens, we're all going to be arguing about things like, I dunno, Everett's Rcap. Relax, chill, take it for granted that if the Astros are playing Everett, he's not a  bad choice.  Try to figure out why they like him, rather than why you don't. HH's answer is that you can never have enough defense at SS, and Everett is the best defensive shortstop in the league.  My question is can you never have enough defense at shortstop?  Your statement is that Everett is not so good a defensive shortstop, and that you like Furcal better, defensively and offensively.

That's an ok answer, but most of us disagree with you, at least as far as Everett's defense.  That's ok, too:  most of us don't need consensus.  Just drop it and move on.  But watch the problem 'cause it's interesting.  

Just a suggestion, anyway.

[HudsonHawk]

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I've never said that no GM would have a guy hitting .240 play SS or catcher.

You said things "of the sort".

[sporadic]

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Yes sir...cool points.  Your obvious knowledge of good music gets you a couple.  Get you another couple thousand and you'll be right up there with me.

What else nets you "cool points"?  I used to drive a '75 Nova.  How many does that get me?

Depends on its time in the 1/4

[NeilT]

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Junior???  You are way off base.  Your Houses of the Holy picture tells me your not old enough for a cane...unless you are one of those REALLY burnt out hippies.  That's what makes all of this so confusing.  You act like a prick, but your apparent affection for Zepplin gives you some cool points.  I must say I am at a loss.

Cool points?

That's not a picture of you?  I thought it was a picture of you.

[HudsonHawk]

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I guess I don't understand that because I feel Furcal has better range, arm strength and greater ability for outs that AE cannot get (deep in the hole, off balance, etc).  I have seen that little man rob way more hits than AE.  Granted, the play on Cathead up the middle in the NLCS by AE was great, as well as the game ending DP, but I think Furcal makes those plays also.

Furcal has a stronger arm.  They are about equal in terms of range.  I dont' think there's any ball that Furcal can get to that Everett cannot.  Everett has a better glove.  Everett is quicker turning the DP.  Everett's arm is more accurate.

[sporadic]

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Does anybody know when pitchers and catchers report?

Nope...I will go with approx. on week before everyone else.  I am assuming this is being shown as proof to my lack of baseball knowledge, or is this an actual question?

Look, nobody has less baseball knowledge than I do, and if you think you do, i'm going to start calling you names. I don't know when they report. It was a joke. I do know that when they report, life will be blissful and complete, and I will quit asking my wife every night if there's a baseball game on tv.  My dog will be more loyal, my children smarter and more agreeable, and my wine sweeter, or drier since that's my preference.  It is a long off-season, and until something happens, we're all going to be arguing about things like, I dunno, Everett's Rcap. Relax, chill, take it for granted that if the Astros are playing Everett, he's not a  bad choice.  Try to figure out why they like him, rather than why you don't. HH's answer is that you can never have enough defense at SS, and Everett is the best defensive shortstop in the league.  My question is can you never have enough defense at shortstop?  Your statement is that Everett is not so good a defensive shortstop, and that you like Furcal better, defensively and offensively.

That's an ok answer, but most of us disagree with you, at least as far as Everett's defense.  That's ok, too:  most of us don't need consensus.  Just drop it and move on.  But watch the problem 'cause it's interesting.  

Just a suggestion, anyway.

I said AE is above an average SS...I never said he was "not so good".  I just think Furcal's UPSIDE is better...in football terms, big play potential.

[Limey]

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It was a joke. I do know that when they report, life will be blissful and complete, and I will quit asking my wife every night if there's a baseball game on tv.

This is your mistake right here.  If you want to derail an argument on a Friday afternoon, you have to mention beer.

[sporadic]

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I guess I don't understand that because I feel Furcal has better range, arm strength and greater ability for outs that AE cannot get (deep in the hole, off balance, etc).  I have seen that little man rob way more hits than AE.  Granted, the play on Cathead up the middle in the NLCS by AE was great, as well as the game ending DP, but I think Furcal makes those plays also.

Furcal has a stronger arm.  They are about equal in terms of range.  I dont' think there's any ball that Furcal can get to that Everett cannot.  Everett has a better glove.  Everett is quicker turning the DP.  Everett's arm is more accurate.

I can see the glove part, but I thing Furcal is quicker to the ball...I would not have the first idea who is quicker turning the DP, only that arm strength has a LOT to do with turning one (so I would have to seriously question how AE would be quicker than Furcal...given his footwork does not strike me as better than Furcal's)

[HudsonHawk]

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Yes sir...cool points.  Your obvious knowledge of good music gets you a couple.  Get you another couple thousand and you'll be right up there with me.

What else nets you "cool points"?  I used to drive a '75 Nova.  How many does that get me?

Depends on its time in the 1/4

10.5

[NeilT]

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It was a joke. I do know that when they report, life will be blissful and complete, and I will quit asking my wife every night if there's a baseball game on tv.

This is your mistake right here.  If you want to derail an argument on a Friday afternoon, you have to mention beer.

Dammit.

[sporadic]

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It was a joke. I do know that when they report, life will be blissful and complete, and I will quit asking my wife every night if there's a baseball game on tv.

 to mention beer.

MMMM...BEER.  Now that you mention it, I think I got somewhere else I gotta be.

[sporadic]

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Yes sir...cool points.  Your obvious knowledge of good music gets you a couple.  Get you another couple thousand and you'll be right up there with me.

What else nets you "cool points"?  I used to drive a '75 Nova.  How many does that get me?

Depends on its time in the 1/4

10.5

Wow, I think you may have just passed me with the cool points.  Or at least you would if you still had it.

[NeilT]

HH is definitely in the top 3% in cool points.

[sporadic]

Shit...I'm not even close to the top 3%...HH, how can I attain the necessary points to get in the top 3%?

[HudsonHawk]

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Yes sir...cool points.  Your obvious knowledge of good music gets you a couple.  Get you another couple thousand and you'll be right up there with me.

What else nets you "cool points"?  I used to drive a '75 Nova.  How many does that get me?

Depends on its time in the 1/4

10.5

Wow, I think you may have just passed me with the cool points.  Or at least you would if you still had it.

Well, to be honest, 10.5 maybe fudging it a little.  As a matter of fact, getting it started was an accomplishment in and of itself.  But cool points are so hard to come by, I'm willing to push the envelope.  On a side note, a friend of mine had a 1972 Ford Torino that he dropped a Corvette 427 in...that may have ran a 10.5.  Damn that car was fast.

[HudsonHawk]

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Shit...I'm not even close to the top 3%...HH, how can I attain the necessary points to get in the top 3%?

You own any "earth shoes"?  Those are worth a couple.

[sporadic]

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Yes sir...cool points.  Your obvious knowledge of good music gets you a couple.  Get you another couple thousand and you'll be right up there with me.

What else nets you "cool points"?  I used to drive a '75 Nova.  How many does that get me?

Depends on its time in the 1/4

10.5

Wow, I think you may have just passed me with the cool points.  Or at least you would if you still had it.

Well, to be honest, 10.5 maybe fudging it a little.  As a matter of fact, getting it started was an accomplishment in and of itself.  But cool points are so hard to come by, I'm willing to push the envelope.  On a side note, a friend of mine had a 1972 Ford Torino that he dropped a Corvette 427 in...that may have ran a 10.5.  Damn that car was fast.

Fudging or not, anything close to 10.5 is flat out hauling ass.

[sporadic]

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Shit...I'm not even close to the top 3%...HH, how can I attain the necessary points to get in the top 3%?

You own any "earth shoes"?  Those are worth a couple.

Nope, no earth shoes...is that some California Hippie get-up?  I'm more along the lines of Texas Harley Trash that just listens to hippie music.

[HudsonHawk]

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Shit...I'm not even close to the top 3%...HH, how can I attain the necessary points to get in the top 3%?

You own any "earth shoes"?  Those are worth a couple.

Nope, no earth shoes...is that some California Hippie get-up?  I'm more along the lines of Texas Harley Trash that just listens to hippie music.

Earth shoes were a big fad along the time my Nova was made.  The basic premise was that they were higher in the front than they were in the heel, which is contrary to the way most shoes are made.  This was supposed to be more natural and give you more of an "aboriginal" posture.  They came in different styles, but like most everything fashionable in the 70's (and subsequently the 00's) they were hideously ugly.

[sporadic]

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Shit...I'm not even close to the top 3%...HH, how can I attain the necessary points to get in the top 3%?

You own any "earth shoes"?  Those are worth a couple.

Nope, no earth shoes...is that some California Hippie get-up?  I'm more along the lines of Texas Harley Trash that just listens to hippie music.

Earth shoes were a big fad along the time my Nova was made.  The basic premise was that they were higher in the front than they were in the heel, which is contrary to the way most shoes are made.  This was supposed to be more natural and give you more of an "aboriginal" posture.  They came in different styles, but like most everything fashionable in the 70's (and subsequently the 00's) they were hideously ugly.

Dude, sounds like your calling me "son" was about right on.  I was made in '75...so I would have no idea about earth shoes.  My brother taught me the ways of bands like Zepplin and Pink Floyd(my friends were listening to Bon Jovi and I was jamming out to tunes like Cashmere and Money).  My father had a '75 Nova...sweet car.  Anyway, if you were not screwing with me earlier, and you do know who I am...you will know there is a good chance I am watching TV in my garage drinking beer...and you are more than welcome to come on by.  The beer is plentiful and the wife is liable to cook dinner.  I got a great life.

[Arky Vaughan]

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This is the mistake that so many people make.  Defense NEVER "makes up for" or "offsets" a lack of offense.  And vice versa.  They are two distinctly separate phases of the game, totally unrelated.

I disagree. Defense prevents runs. Offense produces runs. They are inherently related.

But their relationship is at the team level, not at the player level. It's not a shortstop's "job" to "make up" for as many runs on defense as he "costs" on offense.  The game is not won or lost based on whether Adam Everett "prevents" more runs defensively than he "fails to produce" offensively.

His job is to do the best he can at both. It's the general manager and manager's job to put players on the field so as to maximize runs prevented by the defense and runs produced by the offense as a team.

[HudsonHawk]

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Anyway, if you were not screwing with me earlier, and you do know who I am...you will know there is a good chance I am watching TV in my garage drinking beer...and you are more than welcome to come on by.  The beer is plentiful and the wife is liable to cook dinner.  I got a great life.

Well, I was just fucking with you...but someday I may take you up on that beer.

[Greg]

I tried to read all of the posts but I'm in a hurry; so, sorry if this has been talked about....

Does no one think AE can improve his hitting? And how much would he need to improve to justify holding on to him for the long run?

Why is this be discused? Please dont tell me the Astros are looking into ditching AE for another SS...

[HudsonHawk]

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I tried to read all of the posts but I'm in a hurry; so, sorry if this has been talked about....

Does no one think AE can improve his hitting? And how much would he need to improve to justify holding on to him for the long run?

Why is this be discused? Please dont tell me the Astros are looking into ditching AE for another SS...

Answers:

1.  Yes, I think Everett can improve his hitting, but it won't be a huge improvement.  He's not a .300/30 HR hitter.  Ain't gonna happen.

2.  He doesn't need to improve his hitting at all to justify keeping him.  It'd be nice, but not a requirement.

3.  We're discussing this because there's no game to watch.  In times like these it's important to look at the failures this past season and blame them all on the #8 hitter making minimum wage.

[CJM]

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I guess I don't understand that because I feel Furcal has better range, arm strength and greater ability for outs that AE cannot get (deep in the hole, off balance, etc).  I have seen that little man rob way more hits than AE.  Granted, the play on Cathead up the middle in the NLCS by AE was great, as well as the game ending DP, but I think Furcal makes those plays also.

Furcal has a stronger arm.  They are about equal in terms of range.  I dont' think there's any ball that Furcal can get to that Everett cannot.  Everett has a better glove.  Everett is quicker turning the DP.  Everett's arm is more accurate.

I can see the glove part, but I thing Furcal is quicker to the ball...I would not have the first idea who is quicker turning the DP, only that arm strength has a LOT to do with turning one (so I would have to seriously question how AE would be quicker than Furcal...given his footwork does not strike me as better than Furcal's)

If you think Everett doesn't show GREAT footwork while turning two then, with all due respect you must have no idea what to look for.  Everett has one of the most beautiful pivots I have ever seen.  He makes something that is so difficult look too easy.  It almost pisses me off...the game is much harder than he makes it look.

[Bench]

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This is the mistake that so many people make.  Defense NEVER "makes up for" or "offsets" a lack of offense.  And vice versa.  They are two distinctly separate phases of the game, totally unrelated.

I disagree. Defense prevents runs. Offense produces runs. They are inherently related.

But their relationship is at the team level, not at the player level. It's not a shortstop's "job" to "make up" for as many runs on defense as he "costs" on offense.  The game is not won or lost based on whether Adam Everett "prevents" more runs defensively than he "fails to produce" offensively.

His job is to do the best he can at both. It's the general manager and manager's job to put players on the field so as to maximize runs prevented by the defense and runs produced by the offense as a team.

Well that was an unfortunately coherent point. I was just starting to enjoy myself.

[Frobie]

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We're discussing this because there's no game to watch.

Ha.  I thought you fellers were beating a dead horse around post 50... imagine my surprise when I checked back several hours later and you're over 150.  

I think some offseason recreation is in order... anybody play Strat-O-Matic?  I've managed to guide the 1975 'Stros to a 24-24 record so far, which ain't bad considering it was the franchise's worst year winning percentage-wise.  JR Richard is 4-0, 2.80 in his first year in the rotation... Cliff Johnson's hitting .422 and is second in the league with 10 dingers despite only 109 ABs... Doug Konieczny is 5-1, 3.48...

C'mon.  It's good for what ails ya!

Edit:  Oh, other folks you might be interested in:  Cedeno .274/2/25, 6 SB (need to get him uncorked!), Dierker 1-7 5.59 (yuck).  Cedeno is a frontrunner for a gold glove, and Roger Metzger has an outside shot at one.  This new guy Joe Niekro is doing well (2-1, 1.84, 3 saves) but he's a knuckleballer so I think it's unlikely he's gonna go anywhere.  

[stubbyc]

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This is the mistake that so many people make.  Defense NEVER "makes up for" or "offsets" a lack of offense.  And vice versa.  They are two distinctly separate phases of the game, totally unrelated.

I disagree. Defense prevents runs. Offense produces runs. They are inherently related.

But their relationship is at the team level, not at the player level. It's not a shortstop's "job" to "make up" for as many runs on defense as he "costs" on offense.  The game is not won or lost based on whether Adam Everett "prevents" more runs defensively than he "fails to produce" offensively.

His job is to do the best he can at both. It's the general manager and manager's job to put players on the field so as to maximize runs prevented by the defense and runs produced by the offense as a team.

Exactly.

[JimR]

Neil, if you start to believe Barzilla's crap, you are fading fast. you have been around here too long to not unsderstand that defense and offense are completely separate. if you cannot see the huge improvement Everett had made as a hittter, i do not know why. your views may be skewed by the playoffs, i guess. how anyone who sees a lot of games can wonder about his defense truly amazes me.

[NeilT]

I'm likely fading fast, and longevity won't keep me from saying stupid things from time to time, but I wasn't agreeing with Barzilla, at least I never meant to.  I think my original point, 150 posts or so ago, was that Everett was not consistently good offensively this year relative to other shortstops (so I guess I was agreeing with Barzilla in that), but I think I was trying to get to what that meant, not to judge it one way or the other.  HH said, essentially, that it was irrelevant because you could never have enough defense at shortstop and AE was a great defensive shortstop.  I didn't disagree with him, but I did try to get to a point where I could understood how someone like LaRussa would rather play Eckstein (who I'm guessing is inferior defensively) instead of Everett.  There was also a long discussion as to whether Everett was a good defensive shortstop, but that didn't involve me, particularly, one way or the other.

I came up with an answer, but I think Arky's was much better:  Those decisions aren't made on the basis of a particular player's defense balanced against a particular player's offense, but on the basis of a team's offense balanced against the team's defense.

I don't think I meant to agree with Barzilla.  I'm not even sure what RCAP is, so I don't think I could if I wanted to. Except out of pure contrariness, and I'm old enough to be contrary from time to time.