Couple of Post Mortem Comments

[Limey]

1)  The hitters, not just Ensberg, seemed to be watching a lot of fastball strikes last night.  Couldn't tell location or movement from my position, but I made the comment numerous times that I wondered what they were looking for?

2)  Uribe's catch in the stands:  How the hell does he get out of the seats with the ball in his glove?  WTF were those people up to?  If I'm there, he's going to have to knock me out to come up with his glove on his hand.

[lc_db]

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2)  Uribe's catch in the stands:  How the hell does he get out of the seats with the ball in his glove?  WTF were those people up to?  If I'm there, he's going to have to knock me out to come up with his glove on his hand.

You would do this...

I would do this...

but can we hardly expect some corporate bandwagoner who paid $5000 per seat just to "be there" that is was HIS responsibility to do so??

[the KEG]

In addition to watching a hell of a lot of hittable pitches go by, I thought that the hitters fouled back quite a bit of fat pitches the entire series as well. No one really seemed dialed in. Saw Lane and MoBerg as the worst offenders of that. When Berkman was the only that was really hitting mistakes, he became too easy to pitch around.  

And what the fuck WERE those fans in LF thinking last night. A good 2 or 3 people actually backed away from Uribe.  Very dissapointed to see that indeed.

The one fan highlight of the game was the guy on Union Station holding up the sign that said "Close the roof. I'm cold."

[Moz]

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2)  Uribe's catch in the stands:  How the hell does he get out of the seats with the ball in his glove?  WTF were those people up to?  If I'm there, he's going to have to knock me out to come up with his glove on his hand.

That pissed me off. I was on the other side, by 133, but I'm pretty sure they could hear my assessment. You've got to get in his way there.

[Limey]

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but can we hardly expect some corporate bandwagoner who paid $5000 per seat just to "be there" that is was HIS responsibility to do so??

I was gobsmacked when the four people in front of me got up and left with two outs in the bottom of the 9th.  Had OP hit a bomb to win it, they would've missed it.  Amazing.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

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but can we hardly expect some corporate bandwagoner who paid $5000 per seat just to "be there" that is was HIS responsibility to do so??

The worst was seeing the guy who put his hands up with a look of shock when he saw Uribe so close.  

How could they not have ripped the glove from his hand?

Oh well.  I guess if our hitters are going to hibernate for 15 innings, the fatcats in the field boxes don't have to be on top of their game either.

[NeilT]

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but can we hardly expect some corporate bandwagoner who paid $5000 per seat just to "be there" that is was HIS responsibility to do so??

I was gobsmacked when the four people in front of me got up and left with two outs in the bottom of the 9th.  Had OP hit a bomb to win it, they would've missed it.  Amazing.

We have a couple that sits in front of us when we have tickets.  They're always there when we're there, and I asked the lady once if they went to all of the games.  She told me that since they retired they go to almost all the games.  If they miss 10 games a season I'd be stunned.  She brings a book and reads during the middle innings, but I figure she still sees more baseball in any given year than I can imagine.  

Last night they got up and left in about the 4th or 5th inning.  I've been wondering why all morning. Maybe they didn't like the White Sox fans next to them, or one of them got sick, or they are aspiring bandwagoneers.  

Tuesday night lots of people left as it got late--I'd guess 15% of the stands cleared.  Easy to understand, though.  Last night the stands started clearing about the 7th inning.  But there didn't seem like that big of an exodus to me.

[HurricaneDavid]

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2)  Uribe's catch in the stands:  How the hell does he get out of the seats with the ball in his glove?  WTF were those people up to?  If I'm there, he's going to have to knock me out to come up with his glove on his hand.

Please... there is no reason for fans to ever get involved with a play.  Let the players decide the game.  If you want to go for the ball when it's in the stands, that's one thing... if you want to interfere with a player, that's just really lame.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

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Please... there is no reason for fans to ever get involved with a play.  Let the players decide the game.  If you want to go for the ball when it's in the stands, that's one thing... if you want to interfere with a player, that's just really lame.

I respectfully disagree.  The fans have as much right to a ball that crosses into the stands as the players.  The rules are clear on this.  An aggressive move by the fans, including knocking the ball out of a player's glove is acceptable behavior.

Of course, assaulting the player himself would be wrong.  Unless he played for the Cubs:)

[Arky Vaughan]

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2)  Uribe's catch in the stands:  How the hell does he get out of the seats with the ball in his glove?  WTF were those people up to?  If I'm there, he's going to have to knock me out to come up with his glove on his hand.

What's worse is these are the same jokers who would put a glove down on the ground to try to snare a ball even if it were fair and in play if it came their way ... but they back off in the stands and let Uribe waltz in there.

[Limey]

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Please... there is no reason for fans to ever get involved with a play.  Let the players decide the game.  If you want to go for the ball when it's in the stands, that's one thing... if you want to interfere with a player, that's just really lame.

I respectfully disagree.  The fans have as much right to a ball that crosses into the stands as the players.  The rules are clear on this.  An aggressive move by the fans, including knocking the ball out of a player's glove is acceptable behavior.

Of course, assaulting the player himself would be wrong.  Unless he played for the Cubs:)

Ravvat!

He was in the stands and is therefore fair game.  Cut to Game #3, when Konerko is trying to kill a rally by making a catch by reaching in to the first row on the 1B side.  The fan stands his ground, makes the catch, the rally survives.

Great job!

[phil]

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What's worse is these are the same jokers who would put a glove down on the ground to try to snare a ball even if it were fair and in play if it came their way ... but they back off in the stands and let Uribe waltz in there.

Bingo.  IMO, the purists need to take into account the fact that fans are  going to interfere.  When a golden chance like that one comes along, you hope that the fans stick a glove up.

Related question:  could Lane not advance on that play?  I couldn't see it on TV -- was anyone covering the bag at third?  Couldn't he have made it anyway, as Uribe was off his feet?

[HurricaneDavid]

I think Jenks was covering 3rd.  Regardless, getting thrown out at 3rd to end a SEASON would undoubtedly be one of the dumbest moves in baserunning history.

[pravata]

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What's worse is these are the same jokers who would put a glove down on the ground to try to snare a ball even if it were fair and in play if it came their way ... but they back off in the stands and let Uribe waltz in there.

Bingo.  IMO, the purists need to take into account the fact that fans are  going to interfere.  When a golden chance like that one comes along, you hope that the fans stick a glove up.

Related question:  could Lane not advance on that play?  I couldn't see it on TV -- was anyone covering the bag at third?  Couldn't he have made it anyway, as Uribe was off his feet?

You touch a ball in play, you owe me the price of my ticket.  I came to watch the players.  Now, if the ball is in the stands, foul, grab it.  But only if the visitors are going for it.  Uribe recovered quick for a guy who just crowd surfed.  That guy made 3 terrific plays in the 8th and 9th.

[phil]

Thrown out by whom?  The guy with his face planted in the beer spills in the stands?

[phil]

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 Uribe recovered quick for a guy who just crowd surfed.

Thank you.  That's the sort of insight I was looking for.

[Froback]

Not that any of you should really care, but if you watch the replay of the Uribe catch, the big guy with the White Astros' Jersey on is my brother-inlaw.  He was not close enough to do anything, but thought I would share.

[EasTexAstro]

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He was not close enough to do anything, but thought I would share.

BS. I was trying to do something from my livingroom. He had a much better shot at it.

[Trey]

If anyone wants my two cents-- which I doubt, but which is the beauty of the internet-- outside of someone taking a linebacker type hit, they weren't preventing Uribe from getting that ball.  On the Konerko play from Tuesday, the ball was coming down and Konerko camped under it, and the fan BEE-U-T-Fully got his glove in better position than Konerko.  Props to him.  Last night, Uribe was going full speed and had his glove up pretty high (I watched the replay specificially looking for the opportunity to prevent the catch).  A fan would have REALLY had to mentally psych himself up to get in the way of that.  

In my opinion, anyway.

[Limey]

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If anyone wants my two cents-- which I doubt, but which is the beauty of the internet-- outside of someone taking a linebacker type hit, they weren't preventing Uribe from getting that ball.  On the Konerko play from Tuesday, the ball was coming down and Konerko camped under it, and the fan BEE-U-T-Fully got his glove in better position than Konerko.  Props to him.  Last night, Uribe was going full speed and had his glove up pretty high (I watched the replay specificially looking for the opportunity to prevent the catch).  A fan would have REALLY had to mentally psych himself up to get in the way of that.  

In my opinion, anyway.

Uribe was always going to be first to that ball.  My issue was that no one stripped the ball or glove from his hand while he was face down in the 1st row.

[Trey]

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Uribe was always going to be first to that ball.  My issue was that no one stripped the ball or glove from his hand while he was face down in the 1st row.

What's the rule on that?  The ump was looking right over his shoulder as he fell.  If while he was on the ground someone ripped the ball out of the glove, do you rule out on the catch, or is it a drop?

[TangerineDream]

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If anyone wants my two cents-- which I doubt, but which is the beauty of the internet-- outside of someone taking a linebacker type hit, they weren't preventing Uribe from getting that ball.  On the Konerko play from Tuesday, the ball was coming down and Konerko camped under it, and the fan BEE-U-T-Fully got his glove in better position than Konerko.  Props to him.  Last night, Uribe was going full speed and had his glove up pretty high (I watched the replay specificially looking for the opportunity to prevent the catch).  A fan would have REALLY had to mentally psych himself up to get in the way of that.  
.

  On the replay Uribe clearly had completed the catch while his arm was still up in the air, before he fell into the stands. With Selig's boys calling the game I suspect that, even had we knocked the ball out of Uribe's glove, the ruling would have gone in the Sox favor.

  Regarding the fans surrounding that play however: Had that play occurred in Chicago, and had it been an Astro making the catch, I have no doubt that the Sox fans would have slapped both the player making the catch and that player's wife as well.....

[Limey]

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What's the rule on that?  The ump was looking right over his shoulder as he fell.  If while he was on the ground someone ripped the ball out of the glove, do you rule out on the catch, or is it a drop?

I believe the player has to show the Ump that he's caught the ball.  If he can't come up with the ball in his glove, it's no catch.

[LonghornCDR]

From Rule 2.00 Definition of Terms

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In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground... ...A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk.  

It doesn't say anything about the player showing the ball to the ump or coming back into the field of play with the ball.  It's up to the ump to determine if the fielder had "complete control of the ball" before the fans grabbed at it.  And we know how those "judgement" calls were going this post season.

[Limey]

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It doesn't say anything about the player showing the ball to the ump or coming back into the field of play with the ball.  It's up to the ump to determine if the fielder had "complete control of the ball" before the fans grabbed at it.  And we know how those "judgement" calls were going this post season.

Thanks.  I agree that the Sox probably get the call, which also would've been correct.  I hate it when that happens.

[Astros Brat]

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1)    Uribe's catch in the stands:  How the hell does he get out of the seats with the ball in his glove?  WTF were those people up to?  If I'm there, he's going to have to knock me out to come up with his glove on his hand.

I was listening to 610AM and one of the callers said he was sitting further up in that section, and the fans further down in the area where the ball came down were mostly Sox fans.  That might explain it.  
I'm off to Roeders for some hair of the dog.  See ya!

[edvio]

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Last night, Uribe was going full speed and had his glove up pretty high (I watched the replay specificially looking for the opportunity to prevent the catch).  A fan would have REALLY had to mentally psych himself up to get in the way of that.  

You dont' have to get your hand higher than his glove.  All you gotta do is box out that area like you were going for a rebound.  You keep him from even getting there.

[Bench]

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1)    Uribe's catch in the stands:  How the hell does he get out of the seats with the ball in his glove?  WTF were those people up to?  If I'm there, he's going to have to knock me out to come up with his glove on his hand.

I was listening to 610AM and one of the callers said he was sitting further up in that section, and the fans further down in the area where the ball came down were mostly Sox fans.  That might explain it.  
I'm off to Roeders for some hair of the dog.  See ya!

I just saw a replay, and it does seem there were quite a few Sox fans in the immediate vicinity.

[WulawHorn]

I was never so proud of our fans then in game three when that guy legally and rightfully stole the ball from Konerko- Backe was funny on the mike- get foul- get foul- hey all right, great play there fan-thanks for the help.

I guarnatee you if I was down there no way Uribe makes that catch- I'm blocking him out the entire way and he doesn't get there- I was screaming at the fans on tv to get the ball and make the play to stop Uribe.

It is especially disconcerting that this didn't happen b/c that area was rightfully nicknamed moron point b/c of those fans propensity to grab bouncers that are in play.  They make plays on fair balls they aren't entitled to, but stand by and watch when they can positively and legally impact the game in the favor of the hometown nine.

Terrible

[HudsonHawk]

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They make plays on fair balls they aren't entitled to, but stand by and watch when they can positively and legally impact the game in the favor of the hometown nine.

Terrible

Fans can never positively impact the game by touching a live ball.  Never.  Ever.

[WulawHorn]

Isn't it in the rules that they could have touched that ball in game 4?  They did in game 3 and no interference was called (rightly so).  Are you saying a fan standing on his seat in the second row catching it on top of Uribe wouldn't be a positive and legal impact for the Stros?

[NeilT]

We were above and towards home from the play.  Couldn't see anything, except there were a lot of white sox jerseys where the play was happening.

On the whole, all things considered, if I wasn't absolutely certain that ball was in the stands I'd back off, no matter which team was making the play.  It's probably pretty hard to tell down there when the play's happening, and the benefit of the doubt oughta be no interference.

[HudsonHawk]

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Isn't it in the rules that they could have touched that ball in game 4?  They did in game 3 and no interference was called (rightly so).  Are you saying a fan standing on his seat in the second row catching it on top of Uribe wouldn't be a positive and legal impact for the Stros?

It would not have been interference.  Perhaps we disagree about fans touching live balls being a good thing.

[WulawHorn]

If you are on the rail anything behind you is fair game. If the ball is inside the railing don't freaking touch it. To borrow from those idiotic beer commercials this is not rocket science history.
Don't ever reach into the field of play.  Do what you like, short of physical altercation, to make any play of a ball already in the stands

[WulawHorn]

fair enough- I can agree to disagree on that one.  I think that it is a perk of homefield advantage.  In boston or NY that play does not get made by the visiting team.  In Cubdom- that play doesn't get made by the hometeam, so maybe you are right.

[pravata]

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I was never so proud of our fans then in game three when that guy legally and rightfully stole the ball from Konerko- Backe was funny on the mike- get foul- get foul- hey all right, great play there fan-thanks for the help.

I guarnatee you if I was down there no way Uribe makes that catch- I'm blocking him out the entire way and he doesn't get there- I was screaming at the fans on tv to get the ball and make the play to stop Uribe.

It is especially disconcerting that this didn't happen b/c that area was rightfully nicknamed moron point b/c of those fans propensity to grab bouncers that are in play.  They make plays on fair balls they aren't entitled to, but stand by and watch when they can positively and legally impact the game in the favor of the hometown nine.

Terrible

They make an announcement before every game, you're welcome to any balls hit into the stands.  We've been looking for name for that area, where you been hiding "Moron Point"?

[NeilT]

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If you are on the rail anything behind you is fair game. If the ball is inside the railing don't freaking touch it. To borrow from those idiotic beer commercials this is not rocket science history.
Don't ever reach into the field of play.  Do what you like, short of physical altercation, to make any play of a ball already in the stands

No argument.  I couldn't see where the ball was caught last night, and  I'm just guessing that if you're standing at the rail looking up at the ball coming in, it's hard to tell if the ball's inside or outside the rail.  If you can't tell, err (air? ur?) on the side of staying out of the way.

[WulawHorn]

I borrowed it from someone in a long ass thread a while back.  It didn't get any play but it is so accurate as I watch game after game after game where those particular brand of idiots try (mostly unsuccessfully- fortunately) to make a play on fair balls batted down the line.

You should just never reach out of the stands- simple as that.  I also, however, happen to think that the stands should not part like the red sea while an opposing SS makes a catch 3 rows deep in a 1 run world series game.

[WulawHorn]

you could certainly stand your ground on the railing which would guarnatee that you are not guilty of interfering and also deter the oppossing teams SS.

[Craig]

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I borrowed it from someone in a long ass thread a while back.  It didn't get any play but it is so accurate as I watch game after game after game where those particular brand of idiots try (mostly unsuccessfully- fortunately) to make a play on fair balls batted down the line.

You should just never reach out of the stands- simple as that.  I also, however, happen to think that the stands should not part like the red sea while an opposing SS makes a catch 3 rows deep in a 1 run world series game.

In one of my playoff previews I suggested "Dumbass Point," but Moron works too.

[WulawHorn]

Let's get a consensus and add it to the glossary.

[Astros Brat]

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Let's get a consensus and add it to the glossary.

I like "Moron."  More powerful, somehow.  (Not to mention more refined.)

[NeilT]

That I'll buy.  Maybe even yell watch it some.

[Dobro]

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Please... there is no reason for fans to ever get involved with a play.  Let the players decide the game.  If you want to go for the ball when it's in the stands, that's one thing... if you want to interfere with a player, that's just really lame.

Please tell me this is sarcasm.  I truly don't want to believe that you're the fucktard that I think you are.

[HurricaneDavid]

You're right.  What we need is more fans interfering with players.  It makes for a more enjoyable game.  That was the main reason the Astros lost, and it's worth complaining about all through the off-season.  Actually, the game should just be all the players versus all of the fans, rather than one team against another.

You probably cheered on that brawl between the Pacers and the fans, am I right?

[No? in Austin]

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You're right.  What we need is more fans interfering with players.  It makes for a more enjoyable game.  That was the main reason the Astros lost, and it's worth complaining about all through the off-season.  Actually, the game should just be all the players versus all of the fans, rather than one team against another.

You probably cheered on that brawl between the Pacers and the fans, am I right?

I don't understand if you're talking about the same thing everyone else is.  Fans coming into the field of play to interfere = bad.  Players climbing into the stands to fight with fans = bad.  Players climbing into the stands where it is free game to catch a ball by either fan or player = baseball.

Players know that a certain amount of joustling will happen so they pretty much buck up if they want to venture in there.

[HurricaneDavid]

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Fans coming into the field of play to interfere = bad.  Players climbing into the stands to fight with fans = bad.  Players climbing into the stands where it is free game to catch a ball by either fan or player = baseball.

Agreed.  However, fans ripping the glove off a player or players having to knock out fans to get the ball = thuggery.

[Dobro]

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You're right.  What we need is more fans interfering with players.  It makes for a more enjoyable game.  That was the main reason the Astros lost, and it's worth complaining about all through the off-season.  Actually, the game should just be all the players versus all of the fans, rather than one team against another.

You probably cheered on that brawl between the Pacers and the fans, am I right?

The air in Virginia has warped your feeble brain.  Fucktard.

[HurricaneDavid]

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The air in Virginia has warped your feeble brain.  Fucktard.

You present such a compelling argument, as usual.

[NeilT]

Actually I've been thinking about this a good bit, and I think the game of baseball could be improved by fan interference.  My proposal is this:  the offensive team consists of two squads, not just one.  The first squad is the usual nine, the second squad is a squad of bikini clad cheerleaders.  Cheerleaders would add a lot to the game anyway.

But these cheerleaders won't just be for changing the outcome of the game by getting everybody to stand up.  Oh no, they're an integral part of play on the field.  See, under the new rules anytime a fan feels like it, the fan can jump out of the stand, run onto the field and tackle any given player.  Say Jason Lane is standing under the ball ready to make a catch when wham, out of the bleachers runs Steve Bartman.  Imagine Lane's surprise when Bartman tackles him and turns the sure out into an inside the park home run.  Of course Lane then gets to pummel Bartman senseless.

But this is where the cheerleaders come in.  Not only are they scantily clad, they're jujitsu cheerleaders!  Their job is to keep Steve Bartman from interfering in the play!  As Bartman leaps from the right field stand, the cheerleaders swarm across the field towards him, tackle him, and pummel him senseless!

Wouldn't that make the game more exciting?  I don't know why no one's thought of this before.  

The other thing that would improve the game?  If everybody on the front row had a cudgel.  I bet the Shed could do a brisk business in cudgels.

[Limey]

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Actually I've been thinking about this a good bit, and I think the game of baseball could be improved by fan interference.  My proposal is this:  the offensive team consists of two squads, not just one.  The first squad is the usual nine, the second squad is a squad of bikini clad cheerleaders.  Cheerleaders would add a lot to the game anyway.

But these cheerleaders won't just be for changing the outcome of the game by getting everybody to stand up.  Oh no, they're an integral part of play on the field.  See, under the new rules anytime a fan feels like it, the fan can jump out of the stand, run onto the field and tackle any given player.  Say Jason Lane is standing under the ball ready to make a catch when wham, out of the bleachers runs Steve Bartman.  Imagine Lane's surprise when Bartman tackles him and turns the sure out into an inside the park home run.  Of course Lane then gets to pummel Bartman senseless.

But this is where the cheerleaders come in.  Not only are they scantily clad, they're jujitsu cheerleaders!  Their job is to keep Steve Bartman from interfering in the play!  As Bartman leaps from the right field stand, the cheerleaders swarm across the field towards him, tackle him, and pummel him senseless!

Wouldn't that make the game more exciting?  I don't know why no one's thought of this before.  

The other thing that would improve the game?  If everybody on the front row had a cudgel.  I bet the Shed could do a brisk business in cudgels.

Send such ideas to [email protected].

[phil]

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fans ripping the glove off a player or players having to knock out fans to get the ball = thuggery.

And nobody is advocating that.  Well, I'm not, anyway.

[Frobie]

I wear cleats to every game so I can be prepared for such a contingency.  Of course, since I usually sit in the 300 level the opportunity to use them hasn't come up yet.

[HurricaneDavid]

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See, under the new rules anytime a fan feels like it, the fan can jump out of the stand, run onto the field and tackle any given player.

Could we call this the "Spiers Rule"?

[Astros Brat]

God how I miss Billy Spiers.  (The healthy Billy, I mean.)  A career cut too short, eh?