Clemens vs Pujols

[matadorph]

Am I the only one begging Roger to come inside on Fat Albert and plunk the motherfucker in the ribs in the right situation?

Those Sun City-slow steps he took out of the box after banging the HR against Roy were very much worthy of a beaning. I'd like to see him try to pull that shit at MM....

Memo to pujols:  RUN YOU FUCKING JACKASS.

[jasonact]

I'd rather see him look silly chasing a special Roger splitter. Sit him down!

Editted to add:
And therefore striking out.

[JimR]

why? because he is good? i think that is chickenshit.

[jasonact]

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why? because he is good? i think that is chickenshit.

No, because it means he's making an out instead of hitting a homerun.

[JimR]

not if he is hit in the ribs.

[jasonact]

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not if he is hit in the ribs.

Oh, I thought you were referring to... oh nevermind.

Chickenshit, right.

[utastro]

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Am I the only one begging Roger to come inside on Fat Albert and plunk the motherfucker in the ribs in the right situation?

Those Sun City-slow steps he took out of the box after banging the HR against Roy were very much worthy of a beaning. I'd like to see him try to pull that shit at MM....

Memo to pujols:  RUN YOU FUCKING JACKASS.

No sense in firing up the Jakes.  A little chin music fine, but a plunking could provide fuel for a fire that I'd rather see put out.

[hostros7]

agreed.  and it isn't like he does that fruity sosa hop when he hits one out...thank jesus he quit taking steroids and we don't have to see that as much these days

[HudsonHawk]

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No sense in firing up the Jakes.  A little chin music fine, but a plunking could provide fuel for a fire that I'd rather see put out.

Fuck that.  Pitch to get him out.  If a fastball inside is part of how you pitch him, so be it.  But you don't plunk a guy because he's good, even if he is a jackass.

[Billy Zabka]

 

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Am I the only one begging Roger to come inside on Fat Albert and plunk the motherfucker in the ribs in the right situation?

No.  No you are not the only one hoping for that.

They are all crowding the plate.  Hopefully, Clemens will put a stop to that.

[Taras Bulba]

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Am I the only one begging Roger to come inside on Fat Albert and plunk the motherfucker in the ribs in the right situation?

No.  No you are not the only one hoping for that.

They are all crowding the plate.  Hopefully, Clemens will put a stop to that.

Oswalt didn't have much hesitation going inside last night.  I don't expect the Cardinals to back off from what they think they need to do any more than what Roy and Roger will.  As a fan, it's fun to watch.

[matadorph]

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why? because he is good? i think that is chickenshit.

in general I agree, but one aspect of baseball's greatness is the game's ability to regulate itself. Pujols is a phenomenal player, but he still plays by the same code of conduct as every other major-leaguer. Fuck that walking out of the box shit. You hit a homerun, you run to first. You don't stand there and gawk as it leaves the yard in a game you're losing. It's only slightly more irritating than players taking a curtain call in the first inning.

[jasonact]

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why? because he is good? i think that is chickenshit.

in general I agree, but one aspect of baseball's greatness is the game's ability to regulate itself. Pujols is a phenomenal player, but he still plays by the same code of conduct as every other major-leaguer. Fuck that walking out of the box shit. You hit a homerun, you run to first. You don't stand there and gawk as it leaves the yard in a game you're losing. It's only slightly more irritating than players taking a curtain call in the first inning.

Screw that. If a pansy pitcher can't take showboating, he needs to grow thicker skin. We don't need players getting their feelings hurt over that crap.

[JimR]

the code of conduct does not include deliberately hitting someone because he homered and admired it. you are SO brave sitting at your keyboard. it is chickenshit.

[matadorph]

the fuck it doesn't. Everyone knows that any player who admires a HR does so at his own risk.

[jasonact]

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the fuck it doesn't. Everyone knows that any player who admires a HR does so at his own risk.

And my thought is, "So what?" Why should the pitcher care? If he didn't want him to do it, he should have thrown a better pitch. The moment he starts caring about what the other guy is doing instead of what he is doing, he's done.

[lc_db]

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the code of conduct does not include deliberately hitting someone because he homered and admired it. you are SO brave sitting at your keyboard. it is chickenshit.

we live in a world that has outfield walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with gloves. Who's gonna do it? You? You?

I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for our pitchers and you curse the Coards. You have that luxury.

You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Pooholes's homer, while tragic, probably saved runs. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves runs...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that mound. You NEED me on that mound!!!

We use words like code and loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a bat and get in the box. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

(with apologies to Col. Jessup)

[Taras Bulba]

outstanding.

[matadorph]

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the fuck it doesn't. Everyone knows that any player who admires a HR does so at his own risk.

And my thought is, "So what?" Why should the pitcher care? If he didn't want him to do it, he should have thrown a better pitch. The moment he starts caring about what the other guy is doing instead of what he is doing, he's done.

I agree, which is why I say do in in the right situation only. It's not so much a matter of the pitcher's mistake or the pitcher being too sensitive, it's a matter of respecting the game. We're playing in the fucking NLCS for god's sake, the 3rds are trailing, and Fat Holes pulls that gawking shit?

This isn't the NFL. Respect the game, Albert. Respect the game.

[JimR]

so you "respect the game" by deliberately hitting someone who has done nothing more than admire his HR? that is too fucked up for words.

[jaklewein]

Alright, as usual I'm going to ask that you spell it out Jim....at what point do you feel it's ok  to hit a batter for showboating?

[matadorph]

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so you "respect the game" by deliberatly hitting someone who has done nothing more than admire his HR? that is too fucked up for words.

No, you respect the game by policing it. Chickenshit is a pitcher beaning a guy for no other reason than  being successful against him. However, I don't think it's chickenshit for a pitcher to bean a guy who breaks the unwritten rule about admiring a home run.

Or does that rule not really exist?

[jasonact]

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so you "respect the game" by deliberatly hitting someone who has done nothing more than admire his HR? that is too fucked up for words.

No, you respect the game by policing it. Chickenshit is a pitcher beaning a guy for no other reason than  being successful against him. However, I don't think it's chickenshit for a pitcher to bean a guy who breaks the unwritten rule about admiring a home run.

Or does that rule not really exist?

I know a lot of MLB players and managers (and fans) feel differently, but I don't like the idea of ever intentionally hitting a batter, even in retaliation for another beaning. That, to me, is a disrespect to the game, not "policing" it. It's purely retalitory and takes the play out of the context of the game. Use an IBB If you want to intentionally put a runner on.

[Limey]

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why? because he is good? i think that is chickenshit.

Clemens (apparently) commented that Sanders was looking too comfortable at the pate, and that that should not be allowed to continue.  IMHO, the same applies to many of the 3rds, Pooholes included.  Rocket might be shaving some nose hairs on Saturday, and that's probably not a bad thing.

[HOB]

It's chickenshit.  Plunking for the sake of payback is definitely chickenshit.  As a matter of fact, that's cunt-face barrett chickenshit level.

On the other hand, inside pitches are part of the game.  Does STL crowd the plate?  They sure as hell do.  
Big Deal.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  Houston does it too so it's hard to fault one team over another.

As to your other point, do the Astros stop and watch their homeruns?  No, not usually.  Is that a cardinal sin?  I don't think so.  I don't care for it but that's me.  It does not merit a plunking.  Crowding the plate, however, merits an inside pitch to push them off the plate.  That's just smart pitching.

[jasonact]

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Crowding the plate, however, merits an inside pitch to push them off the plate.  That's just smart pitching.

Egg-zactly.

Intentionally hitting: bad
Hitting because you simply pitched too far inside to someone crowding the plate: fine
Distinguishing between the two: difficult

[JimR]

NEVER.

pitching inside to get a hitter off the plate should be done regularly.

chickenshit, matadorph, and you are arguing to remain chickenshit.

[matadorph]

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so you "respect the game" by deliberatly hitting someone who has done nothing more than admire his HR? that is too fucked up for words.

No, you respect the game by policing it. Chickenshit is a pitcher beaning a guy for no other reason than  being successful against him. However, I don't think it's chickenshit for a pitcher to bean a guy who breaks the unwritten rule about admiring a home run.

Or does that rule not really exist?

I know a lot of MLB players and managers (and fans) feel differently, but I don't like the idea of ever intentionally hitting a batter, even in retaliation for another beaning. That, to me, is a disrespect to the game, not "policing" it. It's purely retalitory and takes the play out of the context of the game. Use an IBB If you want to intentionally put a runner on.

And you may very well be right, but at what point do you draw the line?

What's to prevent a megastar like Pujols or Big Papi from simply walking around the bases? What if a guy crushes one into the upper deck and takes like two and a half minutes to get around the bases? Is that acceptable? If not, what should the opposing team do about it?

[Jacksonian]

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so you "respect the game" by deliberatly hitting someone who has done nothing more than admire his HR? that is too fucked up for words.

No, you respect the game by policing it. Chickenshit is a pitcher beaning a guy for no other reason than  being successful against him. However, I don't think it's chickenshit for a pitcher to bean a guy who breaks the unwritten rule about admiring a home run.

Or does that rule not really exist?

I know a lot of MLB players and managers (and fans) feel differently, but I don't like the idea of ever intentionally hitting a batter, even in retaliation for another beaning. That, to me, is a disrespect to the game, not "policing" it. It's purely retalitory and takes the play out of the context of the game. Use an IBB If you want to intentionally put a runner on.

And you may very well be right, but at what point do you draw the line?

What's to prevent a megastar like Pujols or Big Papi from simply walking around the bases? What if a guy crushes one into the upper deck and takes like two and a half minutes to get around the bases? Is that acceptable? If not, what should the opposing team do about it?

In that extreme situation, one thing you can be sure of, that player's team will take care of it, pronto.

[matadorph]

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NEVER.

pitching inside to get a hitter off the plate should be done regularly.

chickenshit, matadorph, and you are arguing to remain chickenshit.

maybe you're right and I'm completely wrong, but I'll ask again.....is there or is there not an unwritten rule about not admiring HRs?

[hostros7]

Ok, I agree that retaliating is generally chickenshit.  But always?  I am not as sure.

What if were Roger, and you pitch smart and try to take back the inside corner.  As the opponent, you get all irascible and incite your pitcher to throw at clemens.  Do 2 wrongs make a right?  Because you know the Tank Commander espouses a retaliatory ethos...

[Jacksonian]

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so you "respect the game" by deliberatly hitting someone who has done nothing more than admire his HR? that is too fucked up for words.

No, you respect the game by policing it. Chickenshit is a pitcher beaning a guy for no other reason than  being successful against him. However, I don't think it's chickenshit for a pitcher to bean a guy who breaks the unwritten rule about admiring a home run.

Or does that rule not really exist?

I don't see admiring a homerun as equivalent to hitting a guy with a pitch.  Instead, I think it would be interesting if the opposing pitcher on an at-bat following a homer stared down the batter all the way to the dugout after making an out, especially a strikeout.  It still isn't right, but it's more equivalent.

[hostros7]

I say that in the HR scenario, you strike the bastard out the next AB and tell him to stare at your nasty shit in the catcher's mitt right behind him

[jasonact]

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What's to prevent a megastar like Pujols or Big Papi from simply walking around the bases? What if a guy crushes one into the upper deck and takes like two and a half minutes to get around the bases? Is that acceptable? If not, what should the opposing team do about it?

The pitcher's job is to pitch the ball, not police the sport. The opposing team should do nothing. It's not their job.

Jacksonian's right: in an extreme situation like that, the player's own team wouldn't allow it, and you know the media would be all over him too (not that that matter, but still...).

[Limey]

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Ok, I agree that retaliating is generally chickenshit.  But always?  I am not as sure.

Moral high ground will get you a lot of "L's", IMHO.  If someone is crowding (Sanders) the plate (Sanders) and glossing homers (Sanders) they get one in their ear.  Or a face-full of warning track...whichever comes first.

[ASTROCREEP]

You hit a homerun, you put your head down and run the bases.

You showboat, expect one in the ear.

As a pitcher you give up a homerun your make sure
he's not so comfortable stepping in there next time, try
to avoid hitting him, cause that's a free base.

Usually the guys that showboat are the guys that don't like to get hit, so throw inside once and set him up for that outside slider.

[Racer X]

If Rocket puts one in Pujol's ear - expect five games of carnage -

Do you want to be the one to explain to Berkman and Ensberg why they are on the ground?

All I am saying is this - while Scotty Rolen hits home runs and runs fast around the bases - not everyone does.

I can guarantee - Morris - Suppan - Carp and Mulder will bring  some too if it happens.

[ASTROCREEP]

read my post again, I said try to avoid hitting the batter...

[Racer X]

Agreed -

I was trying to reply to the original post -

I am not familiar with the reply's yet.

I agree with you.

[matadorph]

so then we agree that Pujols is a jackass, classless, narcissistic motherfucker?

I expect the BFiB to know it when they see it.

[ASTROCREEP]

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so then we agree that Pujols is a jackass, classless, narcissistic motherfucker?





YES!! Even Cardinal fans are cringing at the sight of Poohole admiring his homerun. (mlb cardinal forum)

[Holly]

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You hit a homerun, you put your head down and run the bases.

You showboat, expect one in the ear.

As a pitcher you give up a homerun your make sure
he's not so comfortable stepping in there next time, try
to avoid hitting him, cause that's a free base.

Usually the guys that showboat are the guys that don't like to get hit, so throw inside once and set him up for that outside slider.

So, what about the next time Ensberg goes pumping his fists around first?

[matadorph]

Since we're on the topic of HR awe, did anyone happen to catch the replay FOX just showed of Orlando Cabrera's shot? From my couch it looked like Jon Garland was yelling at Cabrera to get his ass in gear.

[homer]

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Since we're on the topic of HR awe, did anyone happen to catch the replay FOX just showed of Orlando Cabrera's shot? From my couch it looked like Jon Garland was yelling at Cabrera to get his ass in gear.

I did the rewind, and he seemed to be yelling something at him.

[CJM]

 

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So, what about the next time Ensberg goes pumping his fists around first?

You consider that "showboating"?  I think there is a big difference between showing emotion after a HR (while running around the bases at a good pace) that may have tied the game, or put your team ahead late in the game (which are the only times I have ever seen that from Ensberg), and taking time to admire your HR- then walking halfway to 1st before starting your trot.

I should add that unless things have drasticly changed in the last 10-15 years, the 1st is not a problem, but the 2nd may fall into the area of "showing-up" the other side.  Back then the second action might get some comments from the dugout, or maybe from the pitcher. It would take a few of those before a message would be suggested unless there were other factors (if the other guy was sleeping with one of your teammate's girlfriend for instance).  Most of the time other than the pitcher, and maybe the catcher the rest of the fielders might not even notice something like that during the game.

[Racer X]

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so then we agree that Pujols is a jackass, classless, narcissistic motherfucker?

I expect the BFiB to know it when they see it.

For admiring a homerun -

Slow down Dr. Fraud -

What say you of the Rocket?

[Limey]

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For admiring a homerun -

Slow down Dr. Fraud -

What say you of the Rocket?

The Rocket shows emotion, he doesn't show up the opposition.  Pooholes was "glossing" his homer, and that's jackassetry.  It's bullshit when he does it, when Griffey does it and when Bones does it.  If Pooholes wants to be lumped in with those legendary fuckholes, then he's going the right way about it.

Hit your shot and run the bases.  Just like Bagwell & Biggio - who are poster-children for class.

[Racer X]

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For admiring a homerun -

Slow down Dr. Fraud -

What say you of the Rocket?

The Rocket shows emotion, he doesn't show up the opposition.  Pooholes was "glossing" his homer, and that's jackassetry.  It's bullshit when he does it, when Griffey does it and when Bones does it.  If Pooholes wants to be lumped in with those legendary fuckholes, then he's going the right way about it.

Hit your shot and run the bases.  Just like Bagwell & Biggio - who are poster-children for class.

First - admiring your own home run for a player who hits as many of them as Pujols is at best tasteless and at worst vulgar - I don't know if it makes him a jackass but that's symantics and your words or yours and mine are mine.

Second - Rocket and emotion?  Maybe.  Having followed him since his early days he has done some jackass things himself - indluding saying he would put one in Aaron's ear.  Nothing emotional about that.

Great players sometimes play on an edge.  Do I wish Pujols hit homeruns and ran like Rolen - sure.

Doesn't make him Mr. Evil.

[pravata]

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For admiring a homerun -

Slow down Dr. Fraud -

What say you of the Rocket?

The Rocket shows emotion, he doesn't show up the opposition.  Pooholes was "glossing" his homer, and that's jackassetry.  It's bullshit when he does it, when Griffey does it and when Bones does it.  If Pooholes wants to be lumped in with those legendary fuckholes, then he's going the right way about it.

Hit your shot and run the bases.  Just like Bagwell & Biggio - who are poster-children for class.

First - admiring your own home run for a player who hits as many of them as Pujols is at best tasteless and at worst vulgar - I don't know if it makes him a jackass but that's symantics and your words or yours and mine are mine.

Second - Rocket and emotion?  Maybe.  Having followed him since his early days he has done some jackass things himself - indluding saying he would put one in Aaron's ear.  Nothing emotional about that.

Great players sometimes play on an edge.  Do I wish Pujols hit homeruns and ran like Rolen - sure.

Doesn't make him Mr. Evil.

So the only excuse you have is that that doesn't make him evil?  Never said so, said it makes him a jackass; which it does.

[Limey]

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So the only excuse you have is that that doesn't make him evil?  Never said so, said it makes him a jackass; which it does.

FTR, I said "jackass" and "fuckhole".

[pravata]

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So the only excuse you have is that that doesn't make him evil?  Never said so, said it makes him a jackass; which it does.

FTR, I said "jackass" and "fuckhole".

Exactly.  An inexusable oversight on may part.

[No? in Austin]

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Hit your shot and run the bases.  Just like Bagwell & Biggio - who are poster-children for class.

And Scott Rolen, who never shows up anyone, even when it's a big homerun to propel a team into the Wold Series.

And FWIW, Prince Albert has had his fair share of detractors about his 'tude towards fans and media in the St. Louie area.  The most infamous story was his refusal to sign a baseball for a wheelchair kid after a game in his rookie season.  A columnist at the Post-Dispatch took him to task for his big league attitude and Pooholes basically said he didn't care, he only cared about his teammates and what he did on the field to help win games.  From what I understand, he has not changed one bit and his contract negotiation was full of comtempt and hardline stances.  Most of the BFiB's were upset at him because he didn't give the lip-service they were used to from McGwire and Edmonds (and others) about how much they loved playing in St. Looie for such great fans, blah, blah, blah.  Those guys even offered to play for less than they could make elsewhere.

Pooholes said in essence "Fuck that shit, show me the money".  Only it came out more like "God wants me to make over 100 million dollars to play here, if not, I'll make it somewhere else."  Nothing we can say about the young man's attitude can be worse than what was said about Prince Albert then and in some circles still said today.

And no one questions his value *on* the field in either case too.