Week 8/10 - 8/16: Ask And Ye Shall Maybe Receive vol. XXII

[Jacksonian]

New week.

Topic for debate, middle infield depth. I'm not considering guys I see as career minor leaguers, esp at AA and AAA.

Everett, Biggio, Burke, and Bruntlett at the big club.
Conrad and Whiteman at RR.
Robinson at CC.
Zobrist and Ash at Salem.
Sutton, Triplett, and Maysonet at Lex.
Sutil, Manzella, and King at TC.
Johnson, Florentino, Espinoza, and Ramirez at Gnvl.

It looks to me as if the Astros have begun to stockpile shortstops, esp below AA.  2B don't seem to be the biggest priority, which I think is ok.  A couple of the SS appear to be very strong defensively.

Debate away.

[Duman]

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New week.

Topic for debate, middle infield depth. I'm not considering guys I see as career minor leaguers, esp at AA and AAA.

Everett, Biggio, Burke, and Bruntlett at the big club.
Conrad and Whiteman at RR.
Robinson at CC.
Zobrist and Ash at Salem.
Sutton, Triplett, and Maysonet at Lex.
Sutil, Manzella, and King at TC.
Johnson, Florentino, Espinoza, and Ramirez at Gnvl.

It looks to me as if the Astros have begun to stockpile shortstops, esp below AA.  2B don't seem to be the biggest priority, which I think is ok.  A couple of the SS appear to be very strong defensively.

Debate away.

I have seen Triplett, Sutil and all the Greeneville guys play.  If I had to rank them it would be in the following order:

Sutil, Florintino, Johnson, Triplett (I see him more as 2B), Espinoza, Ramirez.  

Sutil is by far the top of these prospects I have listed.  I could see him starting at Salem next season and maybe CC depending on where Zobrist is playing.

Espinoza is in his second year of rookie ball and I don't see him going much further.  Ramirez has played out of position at 3rd prior to Koby Clemens signing.  He may deserve higher than I ranked him.

Just my 2 cents

[Froback]

I view them this way:

Conrad, Whiteman, Robinson: Nothing more than career minor leaguers.  This could always change, but they have shown me nothing to date, to indicate anything more.
Zobrist: From what I hear, his fielding is his weak point, not that is is bad, just behind hit bat (and not much power).  So I could see him moving to 2B, which might make Burke expendible, given Zobrist projected ML break in time would be around Biggio's 3000 hit time.
Ash: Supposedly a gamer and scrapper, who is producing well, but does no display great "talents".  Given that, I am hopeful he will be a Vizcaino type utility IF, instead of a career minor leaguer.  But if he keeps hitting .300+ every level, he might make a start role someday.
Sutton and Triplett: seem to be struggling too much as they have bounced around a bit this year.  I don't see them developing into anything more than career minor leaguers.
Maysonet: He has shown some flashes, but time will tell on him.
Sutil and Manzella: Seem to both show promise.  From what I hear, Sutil might be the better prospect, but it is very early to tell, anyone in SS need to show they can produce at higher levels.
King: I have to admit, I don't know alot about him.
Greenville: I know very little about any of these guys, yet.

While I know caution has to be done with some of these guys, but I am tired of seeing guys who I don't think will ever make the ML squad wasting roster spots at AA and AAA.  I understand the need to fill your rosters and all, but I am tired of looking at RR and seeing half (or more) of the starters being 30+.  I would rather see more young talent being moved along quicker to see that change...

Why is Igor still in SS, why did it take so long to move Ash, Zobrist and Pence this year?  Stuff like that....  I understand not wanting to rush guys... but if you draft a college kid, say they are 21.  You would like to see them in AA or AAA by 23, not still in A.  That is for those that might make the ML roster.  I just hate seeing situations like Jason Lane (and Berkman to a lesser degree) who don't get a chance to try to earn a ML spot until they are 26+.

So I asked my self "Was Biggio and Bagwell our last 'young' starters?"  Here is what I found out: Biggio was breaking into the ML at 23 and starting everyday at 24.  Bagwell was 23.  Ensberg was 27 before he started starting regularly, Berkman was 24/25.  Burke is 25, and is really still blocked at 2B.  Taveras is 23, although if we had signed Beltran, Taveras would not be in the ML now.

So maybe I am wrong.  It certainly seems to show that we still bring some guys along more quickly than I had thought.  I guess my view is a bit shaded by some real "clunker" drafts.  So I guess we will see the "dead spots" in the org move through, as the new draft classes (last couple) continue to move up, and push out the "dead spots".

[jaklewein]

I could be wrong here, but usually when you see a prospect playing at the MLB level regulary, at the age of say 20-21-22, it's because the team had no other options...usually because of injury, etc.  See Jeff Francouer for instance.  He was supposed to be in AA or AAA right now but due to injuries (Jordan) and other problems (Mondesi) they had no other options.  They tried guys like Langerhans, but they were no better than 4th OFs.  Hence Francouer gets his chance...and he's making the most of it right now....on fire!

Now, that being said...every once and a while you'll get an ARod, Griffey Jr. type player...they've got so much talent that they fly through a system.  But they don't come along that often.  Today, there are only a couple minor leaguers that I can think of that fit that....the kid for SEA (SP) that just got brought up...and Delmon Young...who's still in the minors but might be brought up next season.

[Greg D]

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Sutil is by far the top of these prospects I have listed.  I could see him starting at Salem next season and maybe CC depending on where Zobrist is playing.

Do you realize how rare it is for a position player to be advanced three levels from the end of one season to the beginning of the next?

[Froback]

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Sutil is by far the top of these prospects I have listed.  I could see him starting at Salem next season and maybe CC depending on where Zobrist is playing.

Do you realize how rare it is for a position player to be advanced three levels from the end of one season to the beginning of the next?

True, but Sutil was at SS last year, so techinically this is his second stint there.  I am surprised that when Zobrist moved, that he didn't move to Lexington.  But I agree, CC is not in the equation for next year, but Salem should be his goal by EOY 06.  And CC in 07.
Zobrist I see being in CC next year though.

[Froback]

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I could be wrong here, but usually when you see a prospect playing at the MLB level regulary, at the age of say 20-21-22, it's because the team had no other options...usually because of injury, etc.  See Jeff Francouer for instance.  He was supposed to be in AA or AAA right now but due to injuries (Jordan) and other problems (Mondesi) they had no other options.  They tried guys like Langerhans, but they were no better than 4th OFs.  Hence Francouer gets his chance...and he's making the most of it right now....on fire!

Now, that being said...every once and a while you'll get an ARod, Griffey Jr. type player...they've got so much talent that they fly through a system.  But they don't come along that often.  Today, there are only a couple minor leaguers that I can think of that fit that....the kid for SEA (SP) that just got brought up...and Delmon Young...who's still in the minors but might be brought up next season.

I agree, as I indicated in my post, I had my eyes opened to the truth.  I thought the Astros prospects were being slow played too much... Ensberg and Lane being part of my fuel and the fact that we have a bunch of AAAA spares at AAA this year.  After I did the quick reseason I detailed, I figured, I was just being overly picky.  But I still hate seeing a large number of 30+ players at AAA.  If you haven't reach the ML by 30, you should be a rare bird to still be playing, not the average age of a AAA roster.

[VirtualBob]

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I could be wrong here, but usually when you see a prospect playing at the MLB level regulary, at the age of say 20-21-22, it's because the team had no other options...usually because of injury, etc.  See Jeff Francouer for instance.  He was supposed to be in AA or AAA right now but due to injuries (Jordan) and other problems (Mondesi) they had no other options.  They tried guys like Langerhans, but they were no better than 4th OFs.  Hence Francouer gets his chance...and he's making the most of it right now....on fire!

Now, that being said...every once and a while you'll get an ARod, Griffey Jr. type player...they've got so much talent that they fly through a system.  But they don't come along that often.  Today, there are only a couple minor leaguers that I can think of that fit that....the kid for SEA (SP) that just got brought up...and Delmon Young...who's still in the minors but might be brought up next season.

And on the flip side, if you do not have a fast-burner to fill in, it is very nice to have solid journeyman talent at "AAAA" to call on in an emergency.  I agree with the other poster(s) that I don't like to "see" (as in watch) them, ... much more fun to see the rising stars ... but it is not an accident that every AAA team has a handfull of AAAA journeymen.

[VirtualBob]

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Sutil is by far the top of these prospects I have listed.  I could see him starting at Salem next season and maybe CC depending on where Zobrist is playing.

Do you realize how rare it is for a position player to be advanced three levels from the end of one season to the beginning of the next?

Eric Bruntlett, for instance.  And he really struggeled the first year after jumping from Martinsville to Round Rock.

With respect to Sutil, though, I still can;t figure out why they didn't put him at Lexington to start the year.  I heard a knock on his defense, but stuff I am reading now indicates he may be the best defensive middle infield prospect.  He's running out of time to play at Lexington this year.  There must be more to the story somewhere, but it still would not surprise me to see Wlad skip low-A and end up in Salem next spring.

[Greg D]

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Eric Bruntlett, for instance.  And he really struggeled the first year after jumping from Martinsville to Round Rock.

Bruntlett was 23 years old at the time, was a college player and moreover played at an elite D-1 program. He had the age and experience level that Sutil doesn't.

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With respect to Sutil, though, I still can;t figure out why they didn't put him at Lexington to start the year.

Because Zobrist was there, among other reasons.

[Duman]

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With respect to Sutil, though, I still can;t figure out why they didn't put him at Lexington to start the year.

Because Zobrist was there, among other reasons.



Sutil really struggled to play within himself last year in Greeneville. Part of it was he made it to balls others wouldn't but part of it was he was young and at times awkward in his movements (like a puppy growing into his feet).  I was not suprised by where he started.  He stayed because he is getting to play everyday where at Lex he would be sharing much more time with Sutton and Maysonet. I would also venture to guess that there is not as big of a difference between Tri Cities and Lex as there is between Lex and Salem.

[Greg D]

From the article in the Greeneville Sun about Tuesday night's G-Astros game versus Burlington:

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When Clemens went out, Jhon Florentino was moved from second base to third base on defense and did a bang-up job. Florentino also had a big night at the plate with a double and homer which accounted for a total of four RBI.

?Florentino has some pop in his bat,? Nixon said. ?Plus he has a great arm. He plays three positions for us.  Third base might be his best position. .?

The article doesn't have much to add about Koby's injury, other than noting Dad was there to see it. Clemens the younger was not in the lineup for Wednesday's game.

[Jacksonian]

2 games to 0 over VSL Seattle.  Carlos Ladeuth fired a complete game 2 hit shutout in game 2.  Herman Armas hit a solo shot for the Astros, also known at VSL as Venoco #1.

Check out the VSL website, they revamped their site, for a babelfish version of the game recap.

[Jacksonian]

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Sutil is by far the top of these prospects I have listed.  I could see him starting at Salem next season and maybe CC depending on where Zobrist is playing.

I don't know how the Astros are going to handle it for next year, but you have to, at the moment, work off the assumption that Manzella will be a starting shortstop somewhere next season.  If that is the case, then I'd suspect Sutil would be at Lex, Manzella would be at Salem, and Zobrist at Corpus.

[Jacksonian]

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I view them this way:

Conrad, Whiteman, Robinson: Nothing more than career minor leaguers.  This could always change, but they have shown me nothing to date, to indicate anything more.
Zobrist: From what I hear, his fielding is his weak point, not that is is bad, just behind hit bat (and not much power).  So I could see him moving to 2B, which might make Burke expendible, given Zobrist projected ML break in time would be around Biggio's 3000 hit time.
Ash: Supposedly a gamer and scrapper, who is producing well, but does no display great "talents".  Given that, I am hopeful he will be a Vizcaino type utility IF, instead of a career minor leaguer.  But if he keeps hitting .300+ every level, he might make a start role someday.
Sutton and Triplett: seem to be struggling too much as they have bounced around a bit this year.  I don't see them developing into anything more than career minor leaguers.
Maysonet: He has shown some flashes, but time will tell on him.
Sutil and Manzella: Seem to both show promise.  From what I hear, Sutil might be the better prospect, but it is very early to tell, anyone in SS need to show they can produce at higher levels.
King: I have to admit, I don't know alot about him.
Greenville: I know very little about any of these guys, yet.

While I know caution has to be done with some of these guys, but I am tired of seeing guys who I don't think will ever make the ML squad wasting roster spots at AA and AAA.  I understand the need to fill your rosters and all, but I am tired of looking at RR and seeing half (or more) of the starters being 30+.  I would rather see more young talent being moved along quicker to see that change...

Why is Igor still in SS, why did it take so long to move Ash, Zobrist and Pence this year?  Stuff like that....  I understand not wanting to rush guys... but if you draft a college kid, say they are 21.  You would like to see them in AA or AAA by 23, not still in A.  That is for those that might make the ML roster.  I just hate seeing situations like Jason Lane (and Berkman to a lesser degree) who don't get a chance to try to earn a ML spot until they are 26+.

So I asked my self "Was Biggio and Bagwell our last 'young' starters?"  Here is what I found out: Biggio was breaking into the ML at 23 and starting everyday at 24.  Bagwell was 23.  Ensberg was 27 before he started starting regularly, Berkman was 24/25.  Burke is 25, and is really still blocked at 2B.  Taveras is 23, although if we had signed Beltran, Taveras would not be in the ML now.

So maybe I am wrong.  It certainly seems to show that we still bring some guys along more quickly than I had thought.  I guess my view is a bit shaded by some real "clunker" drafts.  So I guess we will see the "dead spots" in the org move through, as the new draft classes (last couple) continue to move up, and push out the "dead spots".

I think it's telling that Conrad has not yet been added to the 40-man.  His offensive work this season certainly hasn't helped his cause.

I don't see Robinson making it.  His defense has been less than stellar, and he's not a great hitter.

For some time now, I've had the notion in my head that Zobrist appeared to me to have a Spiers-thing about him.  Not that he'd be great like the Great One, but that he's a solid line drive hitter who is athletic enough to play multiple positions but probably won't be able to nail down an everyday starting role.

I think you've got Ash nailed down pretty well.  I hear the Astros see him as a utility guy, and if he keeps hitting this well, he could see mlb time.

Right now, Triplett doesn't seem to me to be headed anywhere either, but as he is just in him second pro season, I'm willing to wait and see.

Sutton is a few months younger than Pence and yet was thrown into Salem's lineup after spending last year at Greeneville.  That he struggled with the bat there should be no surprise.  He's hit a little better at Lex and as he's a middle infielder (and so not expected to hit like Pence), I'm willing to wait and see.  I will be very interested to see what the Astros do with him next season.

I think Maysonet is on his last legs as far as prospect status goes.

Everyone at short-season is still a prospect to me so I'm in wait and see mode.  Next year's assignments are what I'm looking forward to.

Iorg was put in Greeneville because of his broken foot.  I'm not worried about where he is now.  His assignment next season will tell you how far along he is in his development though.

[Jacksonian]

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From the article in the Greeneville Sun about Tuesday night's G-Astros game versus Burlington:

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When Clemens went out, Jhon Florentino was moved from second base to third base on defense and did a bang-up job. Florentino also had a big night at the plate with a double and homer which accounted for a total of four RBI.

?Florentino has some pop in his bat,? Nixon said. ?Plus he has a great arm. He plays three positions for us.  Third base might be his best position. .?

That's the thing about baseball development, you never know where a player's development will take him.

[Froback]

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Iorg was put in Greeneville because of his broken foot.  I'm not worried about where he is now.  His assignment next season will tell you how far along he is in his development though.

I understand why he was in Greenville, but you have to figure he would have been moved on by now.  I am guessing a lack of a starting slot for him at Lex is probably the reason.  But at least having him at Tri-City would be better competition, right?

One thought that just occured to me, is the idea of keeping guys together so they build a team concept.  Trying to have a couple of guys move together, ie like Ash, Zobrist, Pence and Patton.  Maybe they are going to lump Igor and Koby together for movement reasons.... just an odd thought.

[VirtualBob]

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Eric Bruntlett, for instance.  And he really struggeled the first year after jumping from Martinsville to Round Rock.

Bruntlett was 23 years old at the time, was a college player and moreover played at an elite D-1 program. He had the age and experience level that Sutil doesn't.

Exactly.  And he still struggled mightily.  Helping to explain why it is so rare.

[VirtualBob]

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Sutil is by far the top of these prospects I have listed.  I could see him starting at Salem next season and maybe CC depending on where Zobrist is playing.

I don't know how the Astros are going to handle it for next year, but you have to, at the moment, work off the assumption that Manzella will be a starting shortstop somewhere next season.  If that is the case, then I'd suspect Sutil would be at Lex, Manzella would be at Salem, and Zobrist at Corpus.

Good point about Manzella ... I was leaving him out of the mix.  You're probably right that he will jump Wlad based on age (and maybe also the expectations of a high draft pick).  If Sutil keeps tearing up the league wherever he plays, though, he will at least give us some good additionl depth.  He's played some 2B this year, so I guess it would not be out of the question for him to join Manzella at Salem while Ash teams up with Zobrist at CC, but I'm sure I'm forgetting someone else somewhere.  Regardless of where others are playing, I don't see Sutil jumping to CC.

[Jacksonian]

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Sutil is by far the top of these prospects I have listed.  I could see him starting at Salem next season and maybe CC depending on where Zobrist is playing.

I don't know how the Astros are going to handle it for next year, but you have to, at the moment, work off the assumption that Manzella will be a starting shortstop somewhere next season.  If that is the case, then I'd suspect Sutil would be at Lex, Manzella would be at Salem, and Zobrist at Corpus.

Good point about Manzella ... I was leaving him out of the mix.  You're probably right that he will jump Wlad based on age (and maybe also the expectations of a high draft pick).  If Sutil keeps tearing up the league wherever he plays, though, he will at least give us some good additionl depth.  He's played some 2B this year, so I guess it would not be out of the question for him to join Manzella at Salem while Ash teams up with Zobrist at CC, but I'm sure I'm forgetting someone else somewhere.  Regardless of where others are playing, I don't see Sutil jumping to CC.

I said what I said.  But, as I wrote in the draft review, I still think Manzella is ultimately headed for 2B.  With Sutton starting as short at Lex now, next year's assignments and playing time will be interesting.

[Froback]

What is the story with Sellers? (Tri-City 3B)

He seems to only non-DH about 1 out of every 4 starts but he is batting almost .400 (leading the NY-Penn league).  

Is he really bad with the glove?  Just curious why he is always DHing, gotta love the success he is having, but if you are a player of some potential, you would think playing the field everyday would be important to your future.

[Duman]

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Maybe they are going to lump Igor and Koby together for movement reasons.... just an odd thought.

Here are some possible reasons Igor is still here in TN.  The Doctors who had treated him for his fracture are just an hour and a half down the road in Knoxville.  So if he has any troubles there is that element.  

There has also been a lot of buzz about the fact that Iorg and Clemens have dad's that both played big league ball and there is some support to be gained from that.  Remember Iorg is a local boy and a star at Univ of Tenn.  To give you an idea of how big of a deal that is they play "Rocky Top" after "take me out to the ballgame" during the 7th inning stretch.  Him being here takes some of the spot light off Koby.  I know these are non-development issues and that Iorg is the higher rated prospect at this time but I think it has helped them to be together.  Plus you look at Greeneville's performance since they started paying and there is a huge difference.  

Of course, it could just be there was no where for him to go.

[Duman]

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What is the story with Sellers? (Tri-City 3B)

He seems to only non-DH about 1 out of every 4 starts but he is batting almost .400 (leading the NY-Penn league).  

Is he really bad with the glove?  Just curious why he is always DHing, gotta love the success he is having, but if you are a player of some potential, you would think playing the field everyday would be important to your future.

Sellers played a good third base last year here in Greeneville.  I think he is just odd man out there or maybe the old man out.  He is too old for the league and they want someone else getting the innings in the field.  I like him a great deal.  While Jacksonian has him in the career minor category, I hope he can at least get a cup of coffee.

[Duman]

I have heard a rumor from some of the Greeneville people that the Astros are not going to do an instructional league this fall.  Anyone know why?

Also why are the Astro's the only MLB team not to participate in the Ariz Fall League?

[Jacksonian]

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I have heard a rumor from some of the Greeneville people that the Astros are not going to do an instructional league this fall.  Anyone know why?

I'll check.

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Also why are the Astro's the only MLB team not to participate in the Ariz Fall League?

That is not true.  The Astros have sent players to the AFL each fall for I don't know how many years.

[Duman]

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Also why are the Astro's the only MLB team not to participate in the Ariz Fall League?

That is not true.  The Astros have sent players to the AFL each fall for I don't know how many years.



Here is where I got that idea:http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050811&content_id=20651&vkey=pr_milb&fext=.jsp

The Arizona Fall League consists of six all-star caliber teams. ...

The Major League affiliations for each AFL team are as follows: Grand Canyon Rafters (Marlins, Mets, Rangers, Twins, Yankees); Mesa Solar Sox (Cubs, Giants, Indians, Reds, Tigers); Peoria Javelinas (Brewers, Orioles, Mariners, Padres, Rockies); Peoria Saguaros (Blue Jays, Nationals, Pirates, Red Sox, White Sox); Phoenix Desert Dogs (Athletics, Braves, Devil Rays, Diamondbacks, Dodgers).

[MikeyBoy]

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Here is where I got that idea:http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050811&content_id=20651&vkey=pr_milb&fext=.jsp

The Arizona Fall League consists of six all-star caliber teams. ...

The Major League affiliations for each AFL team are as follows: Grand Canyon Rafters (Marlins, Mets, Rangers, Twins, Yankees); Mesa Solar Sox (Cubs, Giants, Indians, Reds, Tigers); Peoria Javelinas (Brewers, Orioles, Mariners, Padres, Rockies); Peoria Saguaros (Blue Jays, Nationals, Pirates, Red Sox, White Sox); Phoenix Desert Dogs (Athletics, Braves, Devil Rays, Diamondbacks, Dodgers).

They only list 5 of the 6 teams, leaving off the Scottsdale Scorpions, which is the team affiliated with the Astros.

[Froback]

Looks like he got nailed in the head last night and was taken to the hospital.

 Link

UPDATE: Talked to guy who wrote the article... He has not heard an update yet, but should be able to get me some info by tomorrow if it is not in the article about tonights game.

[EasTexAstro]

 Code:

      SCOTTSDALE SCORPIO   Individual Statistics Thru Games of: 11/18/04     W-L Record:  21-15

    PLAYER                      AVG   G  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB CS   SLG   OBP  E
    Huffman, Royce,3B          .232  23  82  13  19  5  0  1  13  10  19   3  0  .329  .316  6
    Jimerson, Charlton,OF      .194  17  62   4  12  3  0  1  10   1  23   0  1  .290  .206  1
   *Self, Todd,OF              .204  18  54   5  11  2  0  0   2   8  16   0  0  .241  .306  0
    Taveras, Willy,OF          .444   5  18   2   8  1  0  0   2   0   2   2  1  .500  .421  0
    Whiteman, Tommy,SS         .333  27  96  20  32  8  2  0  14  16  11   3  5  .458  .439 12

    PITCHER               W-L    ERA    G GS CG SHO SV  IP     H   R  ER HR HB  BB  SO WP   AVG
    Burns, Michael        1- 1   6.21   8  8  0   0  0  29.0  43  21  20  3  1   3  26  0  .333
    Gothreaux, Jared      1- 2   4.74  12  0  0   0  1  24.2  32  17  13  3  0   5  18  1  .305
   *McLemore, Mark        3- 0   6.38  13  0  0   0  0  18.1  24  14  13  1  0   9  14  1  .316
   

You might recognize these names. Added in their stats.

From  here

[Froback]

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Looks like he got nailed in the head last night and was taken to the hospital.

 Link

UPDATE: Talked to guy who wrote the article... He has not heard an update yet, but should be able to get me some info by tomorrow if it is not in the article about tonights game.

The guy I talk to said this:

"Just talked to the beat writer. She said she was out at the ballpark and Ash is OK. Just a concussion. He almost certainly will not play tonight and maybe not for a couple of days, but it's a bell-ringing and not much more."

So that is good news.

[EasTexAstro]

 12-1

Felipe Paulino got his first start since his promotion.
4 IP, 7 hits, 1 run, 5 K

[Jacksonian]

The best thing BAonline does, IMO, is provide information from sources and interviews.  Today they have an  article  outlining potential changes in the draft and minors.  The article explains why so I won't go into that here.  Much of this stuff will be taken up at the Farm and Scouting Dirctors meetings next week in Orlando.  I will give you a synopsis of the possibilities.

Here's a rundown:

What seems certain is that the draft will be moved to the end of June from the beginning of June.  Makes some sense to me as the NCAA is moving back the collegiate playing season.  What also seems certain is that the Arizona League and Gulf Coast League will go bye-bye.  This does not affect the Astros.

Other potential changes: a signing date 4-6 weeks after the draft; adding a combine; the Pioneer League being elevated from rookie ball to short-season status; the Appy League (and this does affect the Astros) being changed to a co-op league likely leading to its eventual doom; the short-season leagues starting earlier leading to a mandatory instructional league of at least 6 weeks.

What this means for OWA and fans is that you'll have to wait an extra month for the draft review.  Fortunately for me that shouldn't be a problem, I hope.  It also means that new draftees likely won't see a league until the year after they are drafted.  Instead they will likely go straight to instructs.  That probably means getting any developmental info will be very difficult (yes, even more difficult than now).  There are more possible consequences and BA discusses them.

[EasTexAstro]

What effect, if any, will  this have on the Astros organization?

 

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Salem Avalanche vice president and general manager Jamie Toole is leaving at the end of this season to preside over a new independent baseball league. The South Coast League plans to begin play with eight teams in 2007.

[Froback]

Ok, I am a very opinionated person (in case that wasn't already obvious)  So I am going to give my initial views on some of these proposed changes:

1) The Combine:  I think this undermines the value of a good scouting department on your team.  And what, are you going to invite 1500 people to this thing?  50 Rounds * 30 teams.  I think if I had a good scouting department, that I worked hard at, I would be pissed at this notion... do your own work figuring out who is worth getting, instead of having it all served to you on a platter.  This smacks of, let's be like football.  And what type of drills can you do?  Hitting in a batting cage is nothing like hitting live pitching.  You can show off your throwing ability I guess, but hard to show your range, or defensive prowess in a drill.  You can measure speed, but not baserunning acumen.  I don't like this one bit!  (can you tell?)

2) Moving the draft date back.  At first when I read this I thought that ment, earlier... wrong.  It means 3-4 weeks later.  So you screw draftees out of their first season in professional ball to go to instructional leagues...  Hey, I am all for teaching these kids fundamentals and all, but there is NO substitute for playing a game that counts, period!  You cannot simulate all the different things that can happen in a game, and the fluke things that can occur.  There is alot that can be done in instructional leagues and they do have their value, but basically forcing that on all draftees does not make sense...  ALSO if this is the case, the draftees have no insentive to sign quickly.  Now, if you don't sign quickly, you miss out on a year of developing and proving yourself to the club.  So you will see more people holding on to the last minute to drive up prices.  Great for Agents and draftees, bad for clubs.

3) Removal of Arizona League and Gulf Coast League:  Not sure I see this as a big deal... teams have "extended spring training" and instructional league things if they need to work with guys, but they do lose playing the game benefit.  I guess since the Astros are not involved, I have not seen what advantage this gives a club.

4) Pioneer League becomes 3rd SS division, allowing all 30 clubs to have one.  This seems reasonable.

5) Appy going Co-op:  What the heck does that mean?  If a team wants to spend the extra money to have a second SS team, why should they be prevented from doing so?  Seems like MLB is worrying too much about such a minor expense... as was pointed out in a quote in the BA article, it is costing them about the price of a Utility Middle infielder.  Can MLB be so cheap as to dump the Appy league over something that is less than $5 Mil?  I don't like this move.

6) Short Season begining earlier:  WHY?  What advantage is there to this, except that it forces new draftees to all go to somewhere else the first year.  So now we bring in alot of the reasons I hate the draft being pushed back.  I could see this being a good thing only if the draft is held EARLIER in the year... I DO NOT like the idea of slowing down player development/movement in an organization.  Not allowing players to play the year they are drafted, IMO does that.  If they need 2 seasons of Short Season to develop, you find that out based on how they perform in the first Short Season.  Then you have spring training, and half of a season to "instruct" them before they begin a second Short Season.  They need to check their reasons for why they are doing this.  I figure based on those reasons, I am against this too!

One other comment: By reducing each club to AAA, AA, A(high), A(low) and SS only.  You will cause ML clubs to not draft all 50 rounds anymore, or do alot more DFE, which may or may not be good.  If your draftees each year go into Low A and SS the next year, it also kills the chance of some guys to develop, if they take time to develop.  Look at guys like Backe...  He changed from OFer to pitcher... How much harder would that be, if you now eliminate an entire team worth of roster spots for young players?  Also for those players who were drafted in the last couple of rounds, how many of them might not have been drafted, because a team looks at their projected rosters, and go, I have no more slots, and then passes in the draft.  Most teams don't pass until mid-late 40s in the draft rounds... with 25 less roster spots to fill, how many teams will really keep drafting for all 50 rounds?  Piazza may never have been drafted that way.

I think they could do somethings to change the Draft and Minor League baseball, but I don't like many of the current "suggestions".  I don't see where this adds value, more than it hurts value.  

I guess I don't know as much as I thought I did, if these are "good" ideas in MLB eyes.

[Jacksonian]

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What effect, if any, will  this have on the Astros organization?

 

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Salem Avalanche vice president and general manager Jamie Toole is leaving at the end of this season to preside over a new independent baseball league. The South Coast League plans to begin play with eight teams in 2007.

None.

[Lefty]

Any updates on his foot?  Just from scanning box scores he's pretty much settled in at RF, with the occasional DH.

[Froback]

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Any updates on his foot?  Just from scanning box scores he's pretty much settled in at RF, with the occasional DH.

Best I can figure, is they are going to let him play out the SS where he is... this is based on nothing other than the fact that they have not moved him yet.

If I were to guess on the why... Maybe they don't want to bump someone who is already playing at Lex, and he is not blocking anyone where he is....  Maybe they feel the pitching differences is not significant enough... Maybe they feel Greenville needs all the offense they can get since they are deadlast in ERA.

I guess I could have just said, I have heard nothing about him moving since he was assigned to Greenville to "rehab" his foot.

[Duman]

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the Appy League (and this does affect the Astros) being changed to a co-op league likely leading to its eventual doom;
 

Say it ain't so.  Greeneville just invested a few million in a wonderful ball park.  It has breathed new life in this small town of 16,000.  We are not a big enough market to go any higher so if this happens we can only hope for an indy league to take the place of the appy.

[Kent's Moustache]

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I think it's telling that Conrad has not yet been added to the 40-man. His offensive work this season certainly hasn't helped his cause.

Brooks went big fly twice tonight, his 16th and 17th HRs of the season for Round Rock.  I believe he also hit a couple during his brief demotion to Corpus Christi (corresponding with Burke's brief demotion to Round Rock).

I think even Brooks would admit that his batting is not where he wants it to be, but approaching 20 HRs in his first taste of AAA certainly ain't piss-poor.  I wonder when was the last time the Astros had a 2B prospect hit 20+ HRs in a season at the AAA or AA level.

[Greg D]

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the Appy League (and this does affect the Astros) being changed to a co-op league likely leading to its eventual doom;
 

Say it ain't so.  Greeneville just invested a few million in a wonderful ball park.  It has breathed new life in this small town of 16,000.  We are not a big enough market to go any higher so if this happens we can only hope for an indy league to take the place of the appy.

All the Appy League clubs are owned by their major league parent organizations for a reason: they're money losing propositions. I think I read somewhere that an independent league team needs a minimum of 1,500-2,000 fans a game to generate a profit. The average attendance in the Appy League is just 1,050 per game. Take out Greeneville's attendance, and the average falls to just 975.

I certainly hope the Appy League doesn't go under, but I can definitely understand the economic reality of it. If the major league teams then become more reliant on colleges and the independent leagues for refining some of the talent that's eventually drafted, signed and/or purchased, I don't know that that's particularly bad (it surely will be a boon for the college and indy teams).

In order to draw those 1,500 to 2,000 fans per game, the vast majority of indy league teams are located in or very closely adjacent to cities with populations of at least 150,000. Greeneville and its 16,000 population would not seem viable in the long run, despite the current average attendance of over 1,600. That attendance figure is probably impacted by the fact that the club is in only its second year of existence. Once the newness factor wears off and taking into account that some fans may be drawn due to the fact that it's an affiliated team, I don't think an indy league team in that area would draw anywhere close to 1,600 a few years from now (unless a heckuva lot of folks from Knoxville swear off Southern League baseball and are willing to make that hour-long drive to Greeneville).

BTW, I thought Pioneer Park was built using private money. Specifically, isn't the stadium located at Tusculum College for use by the school's baseball team and the money to build it came from an alum? So what taxpayer money was used (I'm assuming that's what you meant when you said "Greeneville just invested...")? Did money get spent on road or related infrastructure improvements (which might have occurred anyway since the stadium would have been constructed regardless of whether a pro team was attracted)? Or did the city of Greeneville and its taxpayers (or some other local tax jurisdiction) pony up the funds necessary for any remodeling needed to bring the facility up to PBA standards?

Hope you don't mind my questions. I'm just curious about the whole situation. With perhaps a bit of luck, mebbe Greeneville and the Appy League will continue to survive in affiliated ball.

[Greg D]

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I wonder when was the last time the Astros had a 2B prospect hit 20+ HRs in a season at the AAA or AA level.

Keith Ginter did (ahem) muscle out 26 dingers for RR in 2000.

[Greg D]

Junior, that is:

 

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Third baseman Koby Clemens, son of Astros pitcher Roger Clemens, is sidelined with a sore hamstring and is expected to return to action on Tuesday.

 The Link

(in the "Down on the Farm" section)

[Jacksonian]

A source has informed me that the Astros prospects to be sent to the AFL have been selected but not formally announced.  Here's the unofficial list:

Josh Anderson
Wade Robinson
Charelton Jimerson
Aaron Williams
Phillip Barzilla
Jason Hirsh

Also, apparently there is a new facility in Surprise, Arizona where the Astros prospects' team will be located, not Scottsdale.

[Duman]

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the Appy League (and this does affect the Astros) being changed to a co-op league likely leading to its eventual doom;
 

Say it ain't so.  Greeneville just invested a few million in a wonderful ball park.  It has breathed new life in this small town of 16,000.  We are not a big enough market to go any higher so if this happens we can only hope for an indy league to take the place of the appy.

That attendance figure is probably impacted by the fact that the club is in only its second year of existence. Once the newness factor wears off and taking into account that some fans may be drawn due to the fact that it's an affiliated team

One of the reasons for the attendance is that there is not much else to do in Greeneville.  Greeneville is only 16,000 but county is 60,000.  During the summer, going to the Astros game is the teen crowds version of going to the mall in bigger cities. Last year we had a winning team and it was new.  This year we have had some big names here that have helped.  I think the 3rd year will be the test.  School has started here now and crowds are smaller since we are at the bottom of the league standings.

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BTW, I thought Pioneer Park was built using private money. Specifically, isn't the stadium located at Tusculum College for use by the school's baseball team and the money to build it came from an alum? So what taxpayer money was used (I'm assuming that's what you meant when you said "Greeneville just invested...")? Did money get spent on road or related infrastructure improvements (which might have occurred anyway since the stadium would have been constructed regardless of whether a pro team was attracted)? Or did the city of Greeneville and its taxpayers (or some other local tax jurisdiction) pony up the funds necessary for any remodeling needed to bring the facility up to PBA standards?

The stadium was primarily done through donated funds with some private money from the City of Tusculum, Greeneville and Greene County.  One big time alum gave the money but it was to bring minor league ball back to Greeneville. Tusculum only draws a few hundred to a baseball game.  The didn't need this level of facility for the Div. II baseball program.  It will help them recruit but they won't fill the stadium.

When I said "Greeneville" I was speaking collectively.  Not private money verses public.  The stadium is the nicest in the Appy league with the exception of maybe Danville.  It would be a shame if it is only used for Tusculum games in a few years.

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Hope you don't mind my questions. I'm just curious about the whole situation. With perhaps a bit of luck, mebbe Greeneville and the Appy League will continue to survive in affiliated ball.

The questions are fine.  Thanks for helping me clarify.  Part of my passion comes from the fact that I have a 5 year old son who loves baseball and I don't want to have to drive an hour and a half to take him to a game.  I love having rookie ball here where we can get autographs, have guys over for lunch during the season, and play wiffle ball in the yard with him.

BTW - what would exactly is a co-op league?

[Kent's Moustache]

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I wonder when was the last time the Astros had a 2B prospect hit 20+ HRs in a season at the AAA or AA level.

Keith Ginter did (ahem) muscle out 26 dingers for RR in 2000.

Thanks for the response to my "wonderment," Greg D.

And, on Ginter, point (ahem) well-taken.

[Greg D]

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BTW - what would exactly is a co-op league?

Though I don't think I've ever heard it referred to as such, the Arizona Fall League is an example of a co-op league. Multiple major league organizations funnel players to a single team (i.e., if 5 major league teams operate a single team and the roster limit is 30 players, then each club supplies 6 players to the co-op team). The cost of operating the team is split equally among the clubs as well.

[Uncle Charlie]

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A source has informed me that the Astros prospects to be sent to the AFL have been selected but not formally announced.  Here's the unofficial list:

Josh Anderson
Wade Robinson
Charelton Jimerson
Aaron Williams
Phillip Barzilla
Jason Hirsh

Also, apparently there is a new facility in Surprise, Arizona where the Astros prospects' team will be located, not Scottsdale.

Interesting list.  For me the most interesting names on that list are Jimerson and Williams.  Jimerson seems to be a "make or break" type submission.  Williams has definately performed well and has flown under the radar to an extent.  I wonder if his command problems will make the AFL rather tough for him though.

[stubbyc]

So what's the long term plan with Ben Zobrist? He has some pretty ridiculous looking numbers in high A right now so I assume he'll make the jump to AA next year. Is he a long term at SS or is he likely to move to 2b or somewhere else on the field?

[InRoyWeTrust]

My concern with Zobrist is that he doesn't have any pop whatsoever and he's not really that great of a runner, especially . I guess that just makes him a David Eckstein-type player.

But then again, if he keeps getting on base more than half the time, who the hell cares. I've never really seen him play before, but 0 errors can't be too bad. Does anyone know how good he is defensively?

And speaking of Salem guys putting up numbers, Hunter Pence seems to have his swing back. He struggled a little after the callup, but apparently that was because of the injuries. He's got to be by far our best hitting prospect.

[Uncle Charlie]

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My concern with Zobrist is that he doesn't have any pop whatsoever and he's not really that great of a runner, especially . I guess that just makes him a David Eckstein-type player.

But then again, if he keeps getting on base more than half the time, who the hell cares. I've never really seen him play before, but 0 errors can't be too bad. Does anyone know how good he is defensively?

And speaking of Salem guys putting up numbers, Hunter Pence seems to have his swing back. He struggled a little after the callup, but apparently that was because of the injuries. He's got to be by far our best hitting prospect.

I think Zobrist will develop power.  He's got nearly 30 doubles with only 4 HR right now...that type of ratio doesn't exist very often.  My guess is that it will start to even through the next few years...

[Jacksonian]

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So what's the long term plan with Ben Zobrist? He has some pretty ridiculous looking numbers in high A right now so I assume he'll make the jump to AA next year. Is he a long term at SS or is he likely to move to 2b or somewhere else on the field?

There's little doubt that, unless his off-season surgery goes horribly awry, Zobrist will start 06 at AA.  I'm not sure even have a long term plan for Zobrist.  I suspect they simply want to let him play and see how he progresses.  He seems to have enough range and arm to play short, but again I'm not sure where he'll end up.

[Jacksonian]

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My concern with Zobrist is that he doesn't have any pop whatsoever and he's not really that great of a runner, especially . I guess that just makes him a David Eckstein-type player.

But then again, if he keeps getting on base more than half the time, who the hell cares. I've never really seen him play before, but 0 errors can't be too bad. Does anyone know how good he is defensively?

Actually Zobrist has pretty fair speed.  He does have some power.  It's just that he has a very flat swing.  He doesn't get much lift on the ball so he hits lots of liners.  Some call it gap power.  I don't see the Astros tinkering with his swing to try to generate homers.  I imagine they'd rather he focused on getting on base and hitting the gaps.

Defensively, I've heard he's average to above average and technically sound.

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And speaking of Salem guys putting up numbers, Hunter Pence seems to have his swing back. He struggled a little after the callup, but apparently that was because of the injuries. He's got to be by far our best hitting prospect.

I'm real curious to see how he does at AA next season.

[Duman]

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I've never really seen him play before, but 0 errors can't be too bad. Does anyone know how good he is defensively?

You jinxed him.  He committed an error in the game on Sunday

[InRoyWeTrust]

Oops..

[InRoyWeTrust]

 He took a perfect into the sixth for Tri City - it's the lead story on minorleaguebaseball.com

The Link

He struggled pretty badly in Lexington, but he's probably done well enough in Tri-City to land in the Legends starting rotation next year.

On a side not, Manzella and Bogi have started pretty slow.

[Jacksonian]

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He took a perfect into the sixth for Tri City - it's the lead story on minorleaguebaseball.com

The Link

He struggled pretty badly in Lexington, but he's probably done well enough in Tri-City to land in the Legends starting rotation next year.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if he started next year at Salem.

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On a side not, Manzella and Bogi have started pretty slow.

Fortunately, right now that means very little.

[Fletch]

The Link

[EasTexAstro]

From the same article, I would think this is a nice item:

 

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Salem second baseman Jonny Ash made his first start Monday after being hit in the head by a pitch last Wednesday by Lynchburg lefthander Josh Shortslef. Ash sustained a concussion and sat out of several games as a precaution. An 11th-round pick out of Stanford last year, he went 3-for-4 with a double and two runs in the Avalanche?s 8-4 loss to Kinston.  

[Duman]

The NY Penn All Stars have been named.  3 from Tri Cities made the team:

Sutil, Sellers and Ori

The Link

[Froback]

I am assuming from one of our Academies, but who is he?  I don't recall seeing his name before this year.  What do we know about him?

(I was waiting until the new weeks thread was started, but couldn't wait anymore)

BTW, Felipe has a 1.50 ERA in 2 starts (4 apps) and 12 IP, with 15 Ks at Lexington.