Cole and Game 5

[JimR]

A thing I hate about this morning is the obituaries already started. Kaplan and Rosenthal in the Athletic: “last start as an Astro;” “highest paid pitcher in baseball;” “eight year, &300 million;” “legacy in Houston.” Cole’s only response was a quick “No” to “Have you thought this might be your last start as an Astro?” There is the unstated, implied assumption the Astros will let him walk.

All of this may be true, of course. He may want to play elsewhere. He may want the “highest paid” status. Maybe money is most important to him. He may want a 6 or 8 year deal. Whatever, I hope we try our best to keep him. I hope he recognizes the contributions he received from the Astros in making him the pitcher he is today. I hope most of all he wants to stay. I trust Crane to be supportive of a financially competitive 3-4 year deal. We’ll see.

Most of all, I wish the writer would STFU about this stuff and concentrate on baseball and the Series. The games are not over, and Game 6 will not be easy.

[NeilT]

I don't mind the storyline. It's what reporters do and maybe it was his last game. It'll play out with lots of noise and hoopla and odds are what odds are, and I'd just as soon ease into that now than discover it when it happens. I would really hate for him to end up a Yankee though.

Probably because of the storyline I was thinking last night what a special defensive team this is for a pitcher, and that if I were a pitcher looking at leaving the Astros, that's what might hold me. It would be easier to pitch in front of this team than any place else in baseball. Yeah, Cole is great, but at least a bit of that greatness is what's behind him.

[juliogotay]

I don't mind the storyline. It's what reporters do and maybe it was his last game. It'll play out with lots of noise and hoopla and odds are what odds are, and I'd just as soon ease into that now than discover it when it happens. I would really hate for him to end up a Yankee though.

Probably because of the storyline I was thinking last night what a special defensive team this is for a pitcher, and that if I were a pitcher looking at leaving the Astros, that's what might hold me. It would be easier to pitch in front of this team than any place else in baseball. Yeah, Cole is great, but at least a bit of that greatness is what's behind him.

You can also see that he is having fun and enjoying the attention and  that is probably something he didn't have much of in Pittsburg.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

I don't like it either.

Touch on it.  Let the studio idiots talk about it pre/postgame.  We don't need a cutaway to Rosenthal in the middle of action to discuss it.

[JimR]

I don't mind the storyline. It's what reporters do and maybe it was his last game. It'll play out with lots of noise and hoopla and odds are what odds are, and I'd just as soon ease into that now than discover it when it happens. I would really hate for him to end up a Yankee though.

Probably because of the storyline I was thinking last night what a special defensive team this is for a pitcher, and that if I were a pitcher looking at leaving the Astros, that's what might hold me. It would be easier to pitch in front of this team than any place else in baseball. Yeah, Cole is great, but at least a bit of that greatness is what's behind him.

Your “it is what reporters do” is my point. Write about the baseball game. Plenty of time to write about free agency. Cole refuses to discuss it.

While I am on the fucking baseball media, some SI writer named Dan Garland has a storyline today about Game 5: “Bad umpiring is the story of Game 5.” The story itself was all one-sided. He singles out two pitches-one to Brantley called a ball and the third strike to Robles on Cole’s final pitch. Not a word about bad for both sides. Not a word about Cole’s getting squeezed. Most egregious, not a word about the ball four call to Zimmerman immediately preceding the Robles AB, which was so bad Hinch went out to calm down Cole and Maldonado. Maybe “this is what reporters do” also, but the one-sidedness of it from SI is upsetting.

The third strike to Robles was a makeup call, and it was justified. Cole was at the end, and he got screwed on an inning-ending pitch.

[Limey]

Your “it is what reporters do” is my point. Write about the baseball game. Plenty of time to write about free agency. Cole refuses to discuss it.

While I am on the fucking baseball media, some SI writer named Dan Garland has a storyline today about Game 5: “Bad umpiring is the story of Game 5.” The story itself was all one-sided. He singles out two pitches-one to Brantley called a ball and the third strike to Robles on Cole’s final pitch. Not a word about bad for both sides. Not a word about Cole’s getting squeezed. Most egregious, not a word about the ball four call to Zimmerman immediately preceding the Robles AB, which was so bad Hinch went out to calm down Cole and Maldonado. Maybe “this is what reporters do” also, but the one-sidedness of it from SI is upsetting.

The third strike to Robles was a makeup call, and it was justified. Cole was at the end, and he got screwed on an inning-ending pitch.

Alsi, the Astros scored 7 runs, which is quite a lot. 

[BudGirl]

I think Amy and Kate get along really well also.

I'm like Jim, you never know.  Cole may be willing to give Houston a ride.  it maybe an expensive ride, but knowing it would be three aces (and yes, I still consider Greinke an Ace-he hasn't lost a WS game) for at least two more years would be something really strong to consider.

[Limey]

If this series goes to Game #7, then last night may well not have been Cole’s last appearance as an Astro.  If I were Hinch, Cole would be my first choice to pitch in relief of Greinke if Zack got into trouble early. 

[TerryPuhl21]

Who knows what Cole has said privately to his teammates about free agency and next year, but I found Josh Reddick’s comments on MLB Network’s pre-game show yesterday interesting. The subject of Cole and where he would be next year came up and Reddick basically said he expects him to be in an Angels uniform.

I hope they keep him, but with the money spent on Altuve, Bregman, JV, Greinke and hopefully Springer’s extension, which will be big, I have a hard time believing it is feasible. We’ll see.


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[Astros Fan in Big D]

To Jim's point about the umpiring,  that train started rolling in the pbp booth.

They completely forgot about the Zimmerman walk.   That was a perfect pitch from one of the game's best pitchers on the biggest stage as HIS TANK WAS APPROACHING ZERO POINT ZERO.   And he fucking dotted the corner.

Maybe someone should interview Gary Sanchez.   I'm sure he's all for a 4 strike policy.

[JimR]

To Jim's point about the umpiring,  that train started rolling in the pbp booth.

They completely forgot about the Zimmerman walk.   That was a perfect pitch from one of the game's best pitchers on the biggest stage as HIS TANK WAS APPROACHING ZERO POINT ZERO.   And he fucking dotted the corner.

Maybe someone should interview Gary Sanchez.   I'm sure he's all for a 4 strike policy.

Exhibit A to why I do not watch the pre-or post-game shows or listen to the broadcast. The Worrell button also works in the WS.

[Navin R Johnson]

 The free agency talk reminds me of something thats ruining college football.  A team is having a good year and all anyone wants to talk about is what next job the coach is taking, be it a step up within college or off to the NFL.  So annoying.

[das]

While I am on the fucking baseball media, some SI writer named Dan Garland has a storyline today about Game 5: “Bad umpiring is the story of Game 5.” The story itself was all one-sided. He singles out two pitches-one to Brantley called a ball and the third strike to Robles on Cole’s final pitch. Not a word about bad for both sides. Not a word about Cole’s getting squeezed. Most egregious, not a word about the ball four call to Zimmerman immediately preceding the Robles AB, which was so bad

There's that hack from SI and then there's this comment from someone that was actually there, experiencing the game firsthand:

“Lance did not lose us the game tonight; Gerrit Cole beat us,” Ryan Zimmerman said. “I think that’s the best way to put it. I’ve known Lance for a long time. He’s a really good guy and a good umpire. If you want to talk about the strike zone and stuff, you can go ask him. But I don’t think anyone should blame Lance for what happened tonight. Gerrit beat us. He had great stuff. He pitched his butt off. He’s one of the best pitchers on the planet.”

[D.WARD]

There are several contracts expiring this year with Harris, McHugh, Miley, Rondon, and Smith.  That is $27 million in salary right there. I would think that Houston could fill a few of those roles internally with the exception of Harris and Smith, who I would hope that they try to re-sign.  I think they could make the money work.  Maybe they try to deal Greinke or Reddick in the offseason to free up some payroll if they re-sign Cole?  Obviously they would probably have to eat some of Greinke's money if they deal him. I guess it all will boil down to if Cole really wants to stay.  He won't find a better situation as far as winning and doing so long term in the offseason.  I think the two big names that will hit free agency soon are Springer and Correa.  At this point, I think Springer is the priority over Correa.  Once Correa hits free agency you have Grenike off of the books if they don't deal him.  To me, I think they can make it work with Cole while not putting the team's future in jeapordy if he wants to stay.

[NeilT]

There are several contracts expiring this year with Harris, McHugh, Miley, Rondon, and Smith.  That is $27 million in salary right there. I would think that Houston could fill a few of those roles internally with the exception of Harris and Smith, who I would hope that they try to re-sign.  I think they could make the money work.  Maybe they try to deal Greinke or Reddick in the offseason to free up some payroll if they re-sign Cole?  Obviously they would probably have to eat some of Greinke's money if they deal him. I guess it all will boil down to if Cole really wants to stay.  He won't find a better situation as far as winning and doing so long term in the offseason.  I think the two big names that will hit free agency soon are Springer and Correa.  At this point, I think Springer is the priority over Correa.  Once Correa hits free agency you have Grenike off of the books if they don't deal him.  To me, I think they can make it work with Cole while not putting the team's future in jeapordy if he wants to stay.

Of all the players on the current team, Correa's value seems the hardest to pin down.  When he plays he's great, but he sure seems injury prone.

[toddthebod]

Of all the players on the current team, Correa's value seems the hardest to pin down.  When he plays he's great, but he sure seems injury prone.

I'm waiting to hear after the World Series that Correa is still not feeling right. 

We have two years left with Correa, but unless he drastically rewrites his story, I don't see how the Astros pay Correa as a full-time player when they only get half a season from him. 

[Knoxbanedoodle]

The thing I keep coming back to with Cole is here's a guy who wanted to play for the Yankees his whole life, who was drafted by them in the first round, and who chose to risk three years at college in expectation of being drafted higher. It worked out for him in every way. Never mind that there are a slew of reasons for a starting pitcher to want to play in Houston, I just don't see that guy walking away from what promises to be a historic payday. 

[JimR]

The thing I keep coming back to with Cole is here's a guy who wanted to play for the Yankees his whole life, who was drafted by them in the first round, and who chose to risk three years at college in expectation of being drafted higher. It worked out for him in every way. Never mind that there are a slew of reasons for a starting pitcher to want to play in Houston, I just don't see that guy walking away from what promises to be a historical payday.

If “historic payday” is the most important thing to him, ok. It certainly was not playing for NYY.

[AtascAstro]

It isn't just about Cole.  He has the opportunity to set a new benchmark for contracts.  The contract he signs will impact the entire market this year and in years to come.  Especially after last off-season, there will be a lot of talk about how it is his duty to the rest of the players to maximize his contract.  He may well choose to ignore that, but you know that both Boras and MLBPA will be campaigning for him to view it that way.

[JimR]

It isn't just about Cole.  He has the opportunity to set a new benchmark for contracts.  The contract he signs will impact the entire market this year and in years to come.  Especially after last off-season, there will be a lot of talk about how it is his duty to the rest of the players to maximize his contract.  He may well choose to ignore that, but you know that both Boras and MLBPA will be campaigning for him to view it that way.

It is 100% about Cole and what he wants to do. Players, not agents or unions, make decisions. Cole has no obligation to be a benchmark. Altuve wanted to stay and did. His agent and the union wanted something else. Cole is in control, and he’ll let us know what he wants to do.

[Dobro]

It isn't just about Cole.  He has the opportunity to set a new benchmark for contracts.  The contract he signs will impact the entire market this year and in years to come.  Especially after last off-season, there will be a lot of talk about how it is his duty to the rest of the players to maximize his contract.  He may well choose to ignore that, but you know that both Boras and MLBPA will be campaigning for him to view it that way.

Best post on the issue yet.  This is the reality and will certainly be a significant factor as Cole weighs his options.  Boras and the union have convinced many players to make decisions which were not necessarily the desire, or in the best interest of, the subject player. 

[JimR]

Best post on the issue yet.  This is the reality and will certainly be a significant factor as Cole weighs his options.  Boras and the union have convinced many players to make decisions which were not necessarily the desire, or in the best interest of, the subject player.

Not doubting your remarks are true, but that sort of influence against the wants and wishes of the player is wrong, and turns the law and concept of agency upside down. An agent has a fiduciary duty to his principal (the player) and not to anyone or anything else.

[VirtualBob]

If “historic payday” is the most important thing to him, ok. It certainly was not playing for NYY.

I think that may have been the original point.  He always wanted to play for the Yankees, but chose the potential payday instead.

Now he (maybe) wants to stay in Houston, but does it again boil down to the money?  Or is he at the point now where the money will be so good in the worst case scenario that he can follow his heart?  And if he does follow his heart, is it back to Houston or back to southern California?

We'll see. 

[VirtualBob]

Best post on the issue yet.  This is the reality and will certainly be a significant factor as Cole weighs his options.  Boras and the union have convinced many players to make decisions which were not necessarily the desire, or in the best interest of, the subject player.

Not really.  All those things are true, but they follow the decision; they do not drive it.

[VirtualBob]

Not doubting your remarks are true, but that sort of influence against the wants and wishes of the player is wrong, and turns the law and concept of agency upside down. An agent has a fiduciary duty to his principal (the player) and not to anyone or anything else.

This!

[D.WARD]

Let's just hope that Cole wants the best opportunity to win right now.  You have to think that Houston will offer him a fair deal that will not be any more than 5 years.  If he wants the best opportunity to win in his prime, he will stay.  If he wants the longest term deal he can possibly get, I would say he is going to a California team.  Only Cole knows what is most important to him.  Cole and Verlander seem to have a good thing going too.  They seem to really push each other to get better.

[AtascAstro]

It is 100% about Cole and what he wants to do.

My point was that there can be many factors that go into "what he wants to do".  I would imagine that positively contributing to the overall market for others player absolutely falls into the category of things that he would want to do.  I recall Altuve commenting that setting a new high mark for second baseman was important for him, fortunately he was able to align that desire with remaining with the Astros.  If that isn't possible for Cole, then how much that weights against other things that he wants to do only he can know.

Agents are also paid to provide advice and perspective - you don't hire Scott Boras unless you want max value to be a part of that advice.  Beyond that, MLBPA absolutely has a rooting interest in his contract and I'd be shocked if they didn't seek to influence him.

[JimR]

My point was that there can be many factors that go into "what he wants to do".  I would imagine that positively contributing to the overall market for others player absolutely falls into the category of things that he would want to do.  I recall Altuve commenting that setting a new high mark for second baseman was important for him, fortunately he was able to align that desire with remaining with the Astros.  If that isn't possible for Cole, then how much that weights against other things that he wants to do only he can know.

Agents are also paid to provide advice and perspective - you don't hire Scott Boras unless you want max value to be a part of that advice.  Beyond that, MLBPA absolutely has a rooting interest in his contract and I'd be shocked if they didn't seek to influence him.

Of course, these things are obvious, but they also are irrelevant if he wants something different. They are the tail, not the dog. He has no obligation to other players or to the union if he wants to stay.

[BlownRanger]

Of course, these things are obvious, but they also are irrelevant if he wants something different. They are the tail, not the dog. He has no obligation to other players or to the union if he wants to stay.

This.  Curt Flood and Andy Messersmith didn't take their courageous stands so that the union could control the player instead of the franchise he plays for.

The union sometimes struggles with that fact, like when they heaped scorn on Jeff Kent for taking less money to play in Houston.

[jaklewein]

This.  Curt Flood and Andy Messersmith didn't take their courageous stands so that the union could control the player instead of the franchise he plays for.

The union sometimes struggles with that fact, like when they heaped scorn on Jeff Kent for taking less money to play in Houston.

Well, and to JimR's point, Jeff Kent being Jeff Kent, I'm sure he didn't give a fuck about their opinion....before or after he signed.

[AtascAstro]

Of course, these things are obvious, but they also are irrelevant if he wants something different. They are the tail, not the dog. He has no obligation to other players or to the union if he wants to stay.

It is just as obvious that he has no obligation to other players or the union.  Of course, no one can compel him to do something that he doesn't want to do.  But we aren't talking about what anybody might force him to do against his will.  We are talking about how he decides what it is that he wants.  Influence doesn't only come via heavy-handed bullying.  The point was that if he is the type to seek advice  from others, said advice may very well include a point that his contract will impact the value that other players receive in the future. 

Even if it doesn't actually matter to him, you can bet that it will be part of his statements following the announcement of the contract.  He can also be certain that if he signs a contract that is seen as below-market, endless columns will be written about how he has done a disservice to his fellow players.  Twitter will buzz, every national broadcast will set it up for debate to fill time before, during and after the game for years.  All of that is very real social pressure and in my opinion, not an irrelevant influence on determining "what he wants".

[BlownRanger]

Well, and to JimR's point, Jeff Kent being Jeff Kent, I'm sure he didn't give a fuck about their opinion....before or after he signed.

You are certainly correct, as Jeff made clear at the time.

[VirtualBob]

... if he signs a contract that is seen as below-market, endless columns will be written about how he has done a disservice to his fellow players.  Twitter will buzz, every national broadcast will set it up for debate to fill time before, during and after the game for years.  All of that is very real social pressure ...

A couple hundred million dollars will go a long way to reducing that social pressure.  Think about that for a minute.
$200,000,000 ... that buys a lot of insulation.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

A couple hundred million dollars will go a long way to reducing that social pressure.  Think about that for a minute.
$200,000,000 ... that buys a lot of insulation.

I'm guessing he'll get between $33.3 million and $37.5 million per year. I think the Astros will have to go 6 years to get him. However, of course, I have no real idea.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm guessing he'll get between $33.3 million and $37.5 million per year. I think the Astros will have to go 6 years to get him. However, of course, I have no real idea.

$33.3MM is not even Zach Greinke money.  Strasburg and Scherzer are making $38MM, and Strasburg is set to make $45MM in 2023.  It will take AT LEAST $45MM/year, and someone may throw $50MM per at him.  I will be gobsmacked if his total deal is less than $350MM

[MusicMan]

$33.3MM is not even Zach Greinke money.  Strasburg and Scherzer are making $38MM, and Strasburg is set to make $45MM in 2023.  It will take AT LEAST $45MM/year, and someone may throw $50MM per at him.  I will be gobsmacked if his total deal is less than $350MM

Stras made $18M the last 2 years and drops to $15M if he doesn’t opt out. The Nats have some weird structures to their deals. Scherzer makes $42M but most is deferred to 2028.


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[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

$33.3MM is not even Zach Greinke money.  Strasburg and Scherzer are making $38MM, and Strasburg is set to make $45MM in 2023.  It will take AT LEAST $45MM/year, and someone may throw $50MM per at him.  I will be gobsmacked if his total deal is less than $350MM

Scherzer signed a 7 year $210MM plus $50MM bonus, Strasburg signed for 7 years at $175MM plus $10MM bonus. I would be gobsmacked if Cole got $350MM total. Especially since I just heard on MLB Network that Strasburg is the greatest World Series pitcher baseball player since Sandy Kofax ever.

[HudsonHawk]

Stras made $18M the last 2 years and drops to $15M if he doesn’t opt out....

And then he bumps up to $45 in 2023 if he doesn't opt out.  I just don't see Cole signing a contract that includes a year where he'll less than 75% of what Strasburg will earn and certainly not less than Zack Greinke's current deal. 

[HudsonHawk]

Scherzer signed a 7 year $210MM plus $50MM bonus, Strasburg signed for 7 years at $175MM plus $10MM bonus. I would be gobsmacked if Cole got $350MM total. Especially since I just heard on MLB Network that Strasburg is the greatest World Series pitcher baseball player since Sandy Kofax ever.

Well, then one of us will be gobsmacked, alright.  I just think someone will throw insane money at him.  It will take more than what Greinke got. 

[Waldo]

If you didn’t see Cole’s postgame interview, it’s hard to come away from it with any positivity whatsoever that he’s going to stay in Houston. Wearing a Boras cap, asking if he had to do interviews because he’s no longer a team employee, etc. He’s gone.

[Navin R Johnson]

Just bizarre. This seems so opposite of how Cole acted the entire time he was with the Astros.  Either it was an act or the front office passed him off in some way. 

[HudsonHawk]

Just bizarre. This seems so opposite of how Cole acted the entire time he was with the Astros.  Either it was an act or the front office passed him off in some way.

He's absolutely livid that Hinch didn't use him in the 7th.  It's the manager, not the front office, that has him pissed off.

[Waldo]

He still showed up to the stadium with that hat and presumably planned on wearing it. Maybe his comments would’ve been different had they won, but it’s still not a good look to anyone holding out hope that he comes back.

[HudsonHawk]

He still showed up to the stadium with that hat and presumably planned on wearing it. Maybe his comments would’ve been different had they won, but it’s still not a good look to anyone holding out hope that he comes back.

I'm sure had they won he'd be wearing goggles and be swimming in beer and champagne, not his Boras hat.  His attitude would have been decidedly different.  He saw last night as a career defining opportunity that was taken from him.  There is no fucking way he's going to re-sign with the Astros.

[Waldo]

There is no fucking way he's going to re-sign with the Astros.

Right.  He arrived at the ballpark with his mind already made up.

[VirtualBob]

Right.  He arrived at the ballpark with his mind already made up.

I am not sure that was Hudson’s point, but you may both be correct.

[HudsonHawk]

I am not sure that was Hudson’s point, but you may both be correct.

I don't think Waldo really cares about my point.

[TeeJoe]

I'm hoping it was just disappointment from losing at the highest level for what seems out of character behavior for Cole.  Just bizarre. He just had an incredible season with one of the best Houston teams ever. Loses last game and now is no longer a teammate? While he's still in the same TEAM locker room.   

[SoonerJim]

I was listening to Sirius MLB channel driving in, and that seemed to be their biggest bone of contention. To quote one of the hosts, "they saved a healthy Cole to play in LA next season". The other host thought even if he was not spot-on, the team gets a confidence boost and you don't see the morose dugout in the 7th inning.

Hinch turned into Dave Roberts this week.

[JimR]

If you didn’t see Cole’s postgame interview, it’s hard to come away from it with any positivity whatsoever that he’s going to stay in Houston. Wearing a Boras cap, asking if he had to do interviews because he’s no longer a team employee, etc. He’s gone.

Yep, I agree, and I think that attitude so soon after the loss sucked.

[Waldo]

I don't think Waldo really cares about my point.

I think we are in agreement re: Cole.

[TeeJoe]

Yep, I agree, and I think that attitude so soon after the loss sucked.

Yep, IMO his attitude no matter his reasoning sucked.

[JimR]

I was listening to Sirius MLB channel driving in, and that seemed to be their biggest bone of contention. To quote one of the hosts, "they saved a healthy Cole to play in LA next season". The other host thought even if he was not spot-on, the team gets a confidence boost and you don't see the morose dugout in the 7th inning.

Hinch turned into Dave Roberts this week.

Your final sentence is bullshit. Total fucking bullshit.

[JimR]

He's absolutely livid that Hinch didn't use him in the 7th.  It's the manager, not the front office, that has him pissed off.

If so, fuck him. He has never pitched in relief, and Harris was great all year. Hinch and Cole talked before the game, and Hinch told him how he would be used. Maybe someone told you this, and I hope it is not true.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

AJ made moves, and then shit happened.

That doesn't mean they were all shit moves.

 

[TeeJoe]

Hinch turned into Dave Roberts this week.

Greinke wasn't going to go much longer if Hinch left him in.  It's not like it was a 3rd or 4th inning early hook.

It's also not like Harris threw a crap pitch to Kendrick. He dotted the low outside corner that he hit for a 2 run homer.

If my mind is allowed to second guess anything is that Soto shouldn't have been on base as the 3rd strike call was missed and the ump allowed him a free base. Without that walk I think Greinke stays in the game...but then reality wipes that what if away.

[juliogotay]

I find Cole's alleged actions embarrassing for him. I thought he was better than this.

[Waldo]

Hinch turned into Dave Roberts this week.

I don't think that's true at all, and I also don't envy the position that the hitters put Hinch in.  If Greinke still has a 2-3 run lead after Soto's walk then Hinch lets him stay out there.  I wish he'd stayed in anyway because he'd been so good up to that point, but there's no guarantee that it would've turned out any better.  Hinch had gotten burned by leaving his starters in in similar situations where there were momentum swings.  Now he got burned by taking Greinke out, on a decent pitch by Harris that Kendrick hammered the other way.

Also, I don't think there was a slam-dunk situation for using or not using Cole, other than not bringing him in with runners on.  Any bad outcome in any situation would've been ripe for second guessing.

[HudsonHawk]

If so, fuck him. He has never pitched in relief, and Harris was great all year. Hinch and Cole talked before the game, and Hinch told him how he would be used. Maybe someone told you this, and I hope it is not true.

That's my own interpretation.  And I agree with you, fuck him if that's his attitude.  I could be completely misreading him, but I don't think so. 

[HudsonHawk]

Your final sentence is bullshit. Total fucking bullshit.

100%.  Assuming Cole could have come in and pitched like his did in Game 5 is huge assumption, not to mention Harris, Smith, and Osuna had been very good this season/Postseason.  They all shit the bed on the same night, which happened to be Game 7 of the World Series, but to act like Hinch somehow mismanaged this is just lunacy. 

[Navin R Johnson]

I find Cole's alleged actions embarrassing for him. I thought he was better than this.

What's been alleged about his actions?  After his team loses game 7 of the world series, he wears a Boras hat and refers to his team as his former employer?  There is nothing "alleged" there, it happened and it was fucking garbage.   If he is mad at Hinch or mad at the front office for some reason, he had the entire offseason to air that.  Terrible look for Cole. 

[TeeJoe]

Quotes from a Footer article...

https://www.mlb.com/news/gerrit-cole-doesn-t-pitch-in-game-7-of-world-series

Did Cole expect to get into the game?

"If we were winning, yes," Cole said. "We just went over the game plan. [Hinch] laid out the most advantageous times to use me. We didn't get the [opportunity]."

Hinch backed up Cole's account, confirming he wasn't going to pitch his co-ace unless Houston had the lead.

"He was going to help us win," Hinch said. "He was available, and I felt it was a game that he was going to come in had we tied it or taken the lead. He was going to close the game in the ninth after I brought Osuna in had we kept the lead."

Hinch
"I'm not sure I've had the time to really think about it other than Gerrit is one of my favorite players I've ever been around," Hinch said, adding that the two had "an incredible conversation" about what the righty was willing to do to win the World Series.

"And that means a lot to me, and it means a lot to this team," Hinch said. "And he's meant a lot to this franchise."

[JimR]

What's been alleged about his actions?  After his team loses game 7 of the world series, he wears a Boras hat and refers to his team as his former employer?  There is nothing "alleged" there, it happened and it was fucking garbage.   If he is mad at Hinch or mad at the front office for some reason, he had the entire offseason to air that.  Terrible look for Cole.

Cole owes a lot to Houston. The organization helped him to become great.

[Navin R Johnson]

Cole owes a lot to Houston. The organization helped him to become great.

100% and he has been a model player/teammate up until the post-game last night.  Totally out of character for how he has been his entire existence as an Astro.

[D.WARD]

To abandon your teammates like that after losing a hard fought World Series in 7 games is horrible.  I honestly won't mind seeing him leave after that.  He fits in perfectly with a team like the Dodgers.  There is still plenty of good pitching to get the job done and make another run.  I think Greinke proved his worth to the team last night.  He stepped up in a big way.  He pitched well and kept them in the game for game 3 as well. 

I wish Hinch would have stuck with Greinke for one more batter as I thought he had earned the opportunity but I can certainly understand Hinch's decision to go with a fresh arm and someone who had proved himself all year long.  You get out of that inning and you probably have Cole for the 8th and 9th.  It just didn't work out though. 

[Mr. Appropriate]

I can't make a distinction betwen asshat and boras hat. Cole choosing to wear that fucking hat
 immediately after the game was classless, and completely out of keeping with the rest of his career as an Astro. Makes it easier to say goodbye, which may be the point.

[The Spleen]

That was absolutely bizarre. Cole looked like he was in a hostage video.

[Dobro]

That was absolutely bizarre. Cole looked like he was in a hostage video.

There's some smart people on this board; I'm surprised few see the obvious.  The post-game actions and comments by Cole seemed out of character because they were/are.  What you witnessed last night was the spirit of Scott Boras in Cole's body.  Cole was carefully coached by Boras -- the comments, hat, etc. -- all part of the act.  It was a message to the marketplace that Team Cole isn't fucking around. 

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Here's the Chronicle's clubhouse story:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/Astros-insider-Scenes-of-heartbreak-and-Cole-14610152.php

[JimR]

There's some smart people on this board; I'm surprised few see the obvious.  The post-game actions and comments by Cole seemed out of character because they were/are.  What you witnessed last night was the spirit of Scott Boras in Cole's body.  Cole was carefully coached by Boras -- the comments, hat, etc. -- all part of the act.  It was a message to the marketplace that Team Cole isn't fucking around.

You may be right, but I previously thought better of Cole than that.

[Mr. Happy]

There's some smart people on this board; I'm surprised few see the obvious.  The post-game actions and comments by Cole seemed out of character because they were/are.  What you witnessed last night was the spirit of Scott Boras in Cole's body.  Cole was carefully coached by Boras -- the comments, hat, etc. -- all part of the act.  It was a message to the marketplace that Team Cole isn't fucking around.

This is spot on. Borass strikes again. Fools like Arte Moreno will overpay for Cole. He'll get what he wants.

[Bench]

Here's the Chronicle's clubhouse story:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/Astros-insider-Scenes-of-heartbreak-and-Cole-14610152.php

The Cole quotes:

But Cole held his glare. He was not kidding.
“I mean, I'm not employed,” Cole said. “I’m not employed.”
“We would like for you to do it, but it’s your call,” Dias said.
Cole grudgingly obliged and said: “All right, as an affiliate of myself.”

“A lot of good friendships,” he said. “Learned a lot about pitching from my teammates, from my pitching coaches and staff, learned a lot more about the game from A.J., and it was just a pleasure to play in the city of Houston.”

“The group is so unique,” Cole said. “I'm gonna have some friends from this clubhouse for the rest of my life. You just don’t take situations like that for granted.”

[AstroAndy]

I read Cole's statements differently from some of you, I guess.  As the media made clear a couple of months back when Verlander had the Astros bar a reporter from his presser, players are employees of MLB teams and MLB teams have a contract with the media obligating them to make players available at certain times and for a minimum amount of time after games.  Cole was no doubt aware of this. 

My take is that Cole didn't want to talk to the media (I don't blame him, given the situation and the, uh, contentious relationship between the Astros and the media recently) and reached for a readily-available excuse that would give him an easy out:  "I'm not employed by the team anymore."  And when Gene Dias gave him the choice, he nutted up "as an affiliate of myself" and talked to the press pool because it is so obviously a bad look to do otherwise. 

I don't know Cole any better than the rest of you, but he's been a good guy and a solid teammate, and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one.  That said, I don't know how long you can keep this team's championship window open while taking on the kind of contract Cole will be seeking.  I hope the guy gets all the money he wants from someone else and forever regrets the fact that he left the best group of guys he ever had a chance to play with.

[TeeJoe]

My take is that Cole didn't want to talk to the media (I don't blame him, given the situation and the, uh, contentious relationship between the Astros and the media recently) and reached for a readily-available excuse that would give him an easy out:  "I'm not employed by the team anymore."  And when Gene Dias gave him the choice, he nutted up "as an affiliate of myself" and talked to the press pool because it is so obviously a bad look to do otherwise. 

Much of that bad look was to intentionally walk around the team locker room with not a Astros team hat that he was just minutes from being a part of to quickly going with the team Boris lid.

[SoonerJim]

Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman got into it today, revolving on Cole’s availability in the 7th inning

https://youtu.be/Of71vyD75rQ

[Astros Fan in Big D]

This is as generous as I can be:

Last night he behaved like an ass. He didn't seem like one the rest of his time here; quite the opposite.   But last night postgame, ass.

[Navin R Johnson]

Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman got into it today, revolving on Cole’s availability in the 7th inning

https://youtu.be/Of71vyD75rQ

A Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman link?  About the only thing I'd be less tempted to click on is if you had linked to Clay Travis.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman got into it today, revolving on Cole’s availability in the 7th inning

https://youtu.be/Of71vyD75rQ

No fucking way I'm clicking that link.

[JimR]

Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman got into it today, revolving on Cole’s availability in the 7th inning

https://youtu.be/Of71vyD75rQ

Horseshit.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman got into it today, revolving on Cole’s availability in the 7th inning

https://youtu.be/Of71vyD75rQ

Great balls o' fire them shiftless skunks are too bodacious for me to click on 'em. Oh wait, you're not Snuffy.... Those fellers are as narrow minded as the view from the back of a Conestoga wagon headin' north on a cold day. I ain't clicking.

[Duman]

 It was the hitter's inability to knock in runs early that lost the game. 

Harris made a good pitch.  Kendrick put a good swing on it.  Tip your cap and move on. 

People can say Cole would have done this but they are guessing.

As former Auburn Coach Pat Dye used to say, hind sight is 50/50.

[Arky Vaughan]

I was in a horrible mood after the game. I still am. I can't imagine how much worse a mood the players were in. So I can understand that Cole might have said and done some things that were out of character, even if it's part of his job to talk to the media after his team loses Game 7 of the World Series.

That being said, I recall that Cole rebuffed earlier efforts by the Astros to discuss an extension. Keuchel did the same. I never got the impression that Cole was interested in staying with the Astros. I wish he'd have acquitted himself better last night, but I suspect the Astros and Cole probably made their peace with him moving on some time ago.

I would've loved to have him back, but I'm confident that Luhnow has been planning contingencies for replacing Cole for several months now. The Morton reclamation project worked out. The Miley one, not so much. But I imagine they'll combine some form of mid-market signing with what's already in the organization. McCullers will be back too. If he's able to return to form, that's three pretty good arms in the rotation already.

[austro]

I would've loved to have him back, but I'm confident that Luhnow has been planning contingencies for replacing Cole for several months now. The Morton reclamation project worked out. The Miley one, not so much. But I imagine they'll combine some form of mid-market signing with what's already in the organization. McCullers will be back too. If he's able to return to form, that's three pretty good arms in the rotation already.

It seems like it's usually not until their 2nd year back that TJ cases really return to their previous effectiveness, so I don't think I'd count on McCullers being an ace next year. I think he'll be ok, but it's going to take a while for him to regain feel and confidence.

I saw one opinion today refer to one of the Mets pitchers (Wheeler?) as a possible Morton 2.0 project. I expect them to do something like that. They're going to need to pay Springer soon.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Here's the video.

https://twitter.com/dtexanz/status/1190015985912340480?s=09

[Ty in Tampa]

McCullers will be back too. If he's able to return to form, that's three pretty good arms in the rotation already.

I was saving it for whatever offseason thread appeared but I’m excited about a healthy McCullers.

[Ty in Tampa]

Here's the video.

https://twitter.com/dtexanz/status/1190015985912340480?s=09

This is the first I’ve seen the video. He’s pissed. It makes more sense now. Shitty, but not the ‘fuck you to the Astros’ I thought it was.

[Aussie Astro]

I was saving it for whatever offseason thread appeared but I’m excited about a healthy McCullers.

Same... healthy, a little old and more mature.

[austro]

Same... healthy, a little old and more mature.

Does McCullers's rehab year count toward his service time for arbitration and free agency? I assume it does, but I don't know for certain.

[HudsonHawk]

Does McCullers's rehab year count toward his service time for arbitration and free agency? I assume it does, but I don't know for certain.

Yes.  A player accrues service time if he is on the Major League Injured List.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Here's Cole's message to Houston fans:

https://twitter.com/GerritCole45/status/1189976888233615361?s=19

(if you aren't on Twitter,  he says nice things about the team,  fans, and city; nice farewell statement)

[JimR]

Here's Cole's message to Houston fans:

https://twitter.com/GerritCole45/status/1189976888233615361?s=19

(if you aren't on Twitter,  he says nice things about the team,  fans, and city; nice farewell statement)

Wearing the Boras cap instead of the Astros cap in the clubhouse did it for me with him.

[austro]

Wearing the Boras cap instead of the Astros cap in the clubhouse did it for me with him.

Yep. That was completely unnecessary. I suppose it's possible that he forgot that he even had it on, but why even bring it to the ballpark?

[JimR]

Yep. That was completely unnecessary. I suppose it's possible that he forgot that he even had it on, but why even bring it to the ballpark?

Not possible. As Dobro said, orchestrated.

[Jacksonian]

It seems like it's usually not until their 2nd year back that TJ cases really return to their previous effectiveness, so I don't think I'd count on McCullers being an ace next year. I think he'll be ok, but it's going to take a while for him to regain feel and confidence.

I saw one opinion today refer to one of the Mets pitchers (Wheeler?) as a possible Morton 2.0 project. I expect them to do something like that. They're going to need to pay Springer soon.

In the past week or two he tweeted video of himself pitching off a mound claiming he was hitting 90.  I also read somewhere he's finishing rehab soon.

[JimR]

If Strasburg opts out, wonder if we contact him.

[austro]

If Strasburg opts out, wonder if we contact him.

He has to cost a fortune, too, doesn't he?

[JimR]

He has to cost a fortune, too, doesn't he?

Heck, I don’t know. We need another ace though. We’ll see how JV bounces back, but he looked out of gas from the beginning in Game 6. FB 93-95, occasionally touched 95.

[Tom Servo]

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/Astros-Gerrit-Cole-I-don-t-have-a-crystal-ball-14701325.php

FWIW.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[juliogotay]

He has to cost a fortune, too, doesn't he?

 Cole $$ I would think.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Wearing the Boras cap instead of the Astros cap in the clubhouse did it for me with him.

From the chron article:

Cole also explained that the Boras Corp. hat, which had the insignia of his agent, Scott Boras, he wore after Game 7 did not have anything to do with his relationship with the Astros. Cole had been wearing the hat for three months, mostly on days that he started, as “a good luck charm.”

Not saying it an excuse or wasn't orchestrated but it sort of explains why he had the cap on there and then.

[TeeJoe]

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/Astros-Gerrit-Cole-I-don-t-have-a-crystal-ball-14701325.php

FWIW.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

That is exactly what my hope was from my 1st reply to hearing his interview...that he was mostly upset with the loss.

[JimR]

That is exactly what my hope was from my 1st reply to hearing his interview...that he was mostly upset with the loss.

Yep, that certainly is much better. My guess is Amy Cole kicked his butt and said “Gerrit, you were an ass.”

ETA: Let me hasten to add, Crane needs to fucking get over his luxury tax phobia. To build/continue a dynasty, he must resign Cole.

[toddthebod]

We’ll see how JV bounces back, but he looked out of gas from the beginning in Game 6. FB 93-95, occasionally touched 95.

Totally agree that Verlander was gassed.  I saw some stat that Verlander has pitched 1,000 more pitches than any other pitcher in baseball over the past 3 seasons.  It seems like the Astros need to find a way to limit Verlander's pitches next season if they want him to be effective in the post-season.

[JimR]

Totally agree that Verlander was gassed.  I saw some stat that Verlander has pitched 1,000 more pitches than any other pitcher in baseball over the past 3 seasons.  It seems like the Astros need to find a way to limit Verlander's pitches next season if they want him to be effective in the post-season.

I do not know how that is possible. Pulling him too soon is not the answer, and the man thinks 200 innings is important. Foul balls, walks, and Ks run the pitch count up. He would have to be a willing participant in any arbitrary limit.

As an aside.my scout friend told me after Game 2 he was concerned about JV because “his arm speed is down.”He blamed the innings pitched, which I think reached 258. I do not know about that technical point, but I do know he was not throwing 96-97 in Game 6.

[Waldo]

I do not know how that is possible. Pulling him too soon is not the answer, and the man thinks 200 innings is important. Foul balls, walks, and Ks run the pitch count up. He would have to be a willing participant in any arbitrary limit.

As an aside.my scout friend told me after Game 2 he was concerned about JV because “his arm speed is down.”He blamed the innings pitched, which I think reached 258. I do not know about that technical point, but I do know he was not throwing 96-97 in Game 6.

I was wondering the same thing.  257.1 IP is more than he's thrown since 2012, so it's feasible that his longevity within the season as he gets older isn't what it once was.  If that is indeed the issue, it may well become that he can't both be a 200IP guy and also pitch effectively deep into the postseason without changing his repertoire.

It's too early to sound the alarm, but it's definitely something that he and the Astros (or whoever else he plays for) should keep in the back of their minds as he approaches and passes 40.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Maybe the LDS start on short rest took a toll.

[JimR]

Maybe the LDS start on short rest took a toll.

I doubt it. My guess is accumulation of innings and age.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

I doubt it. My guess is accumulation of innings and age.

Maybe next season some built in substitute starts.

AJ and Luhnow are meeting with the media now.

Of course AJ is hitting all the right notes.

[juliogotay]

Maybe next season some built in substitute starts.

AJ and Luhnow are meeting with the media now.

Of course AJ is hitting all the right notes.

Where are you seeing/hearing this?

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Where are you seeing/hearing this?

Example

https://twitter.com/brianmctaggart/status/1190282873431040002?s=19

[JimR]

Those interviews also are on At Bat.

[JimR]

I just watched the clip on At Bat. Hinch clarifies he and Cole agreed he would not appear in the middle of an inning (for the reasons you all know) and would pitch only to protect a win. That will not shut up the idiots, but it is clear Cole understood and was on board with the pitching plan.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

I just watched the clip on At Bat. Hinch clarifies he and Cole agreed he would not appear in the middle of an inning (for the reasons you all know) and would pitch only to protect a win. That will not shut up the idiots, but it is clear Cole understood and was on board with the pitching plan.

He also aid Cole got up on his own.

[homer]

He also aid Cole got up on his own.

He also said he wished they could have won a game at home.

[JimR]

He also said he wished they could have won a game at home.

Would have been nice.

[das]

From the chron article:

Not saying it an excuse or wasn't orchestrated but it sort of explains why he had the cap on there and then.

You don't wear a "good luck charm" after the event in which you need the good luck is over.  BS.

For example, eating frito pie right now will do nothing for Game 7 two days ago.

[DVauthrin]

ETA: Let me hasten to add, Crane needs to fucking get over his luxury tax phobia. To build/continue a dynasty, he must resign Cole.

Agreed.  The Astros need a long-term anchor for their rotation like Cole.  My hope is Crane is willing to sign Cole and take the luxury tax hit for the next two seasons until Greinke and Verlander’s contracts expire.