Skaggs autopsy

[JimR]

"The cause of death is listed as a mixture of 'alcohol, fentanyl and oxycodone intoxication with terminal aspiration of gastric contents,' meaning Skaggs, 27, essentially choked on his vomit while under the influence," Torres and DiGiovanna wrote.

[doyce7]

That'll do it. Yikes.

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[Astros Fan in Big D]

Now his family is left with the realization that his death was completely avoidable.

Tragic.  Awful. Avoidable.

[Lefty]

Now his family is left with the realization that his death was completely avoidable.

Tragic.  Awful. Avoidable.

He possibly got the drugs from an Angels employee.

https://twitter.com/maria_torres3/status/1167529368597360640

[MusicMan]

The Skaggs family may own the Angels by the time Hardin gets done with them.


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[Navin R Johnson]

Oxy is some bad bad stuff. Horrible.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Man, that is sad news. Seems like the vomit might have aroused suspicion from the beginning. I understand not wanting to jump to conclusions and for all I know, maybe some people vomit when they die naturally.

[JimR]

Man, that is sad news. Seems like the vomit might have aroused suspicion from the beginning. I understand not wanting to jump to conclusions and for all I know, maybe some people vomit when they die naturally.

Seriously, was anyone surprised? I was not.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Seriously, was anyone surprised? I was not.

Sadly, I can’t say that I was. I wanted to think it was something like, he died of having some congenital heart defect. Like DK.

[JimR]

Sadly, I can’t say that I was. I wanted to think it was something like, he died of having some congenital heart defect. Like DK.

Young healthy players do not just die.

[SoonerJim]

Young healthy players do not just die.

Wally Pontiff and Don Redden were LSU athletes who died in their sleep of heart disease. My son’s hs classmate had that happen in his first year of med school

[BizidyDizidy]

Kile?

[JimR]

Kile?

Not young.

This kid was 25.

[BizidyDizidy]

Speaking as a 35 year old, 33 is pretty young to drop dead (at 3x that, I would've thought you felt the same way)

[JimR]

Speaking as a 35 year old, 33 is pretty young to drop dead (at 3x that, I would've thought you felt the same way)

Sure 30 whatever is young compared to me. Not like 25.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Sudden cardiac death in young people does happen. 

Epidemiology for NCAA athletes:

1 in 53,703 Athlete-years

Risk is not distributed evenly among sports

Male basketball players:
1 in 8978 for all divisions
1 in 5200 for division I

There are various causes, most of which have more to do with subtle mutations in ion channels that control the heart rhythm (squiggly lines on the EKG) than with clogged arteries.  In other words, there is nothing structurally wrong with these hearts: the arteries are open, the valves are normal, and the muscle itself is healthy.

There are structural anomalies that account for some of those deaths (abnormal valves, undiagnosed congenital heart defects, etc) as well.

So it is uncommon but it happens.  This is the impetus behind screening programs (my youngest had screening EKG and echocardiogram before he started athletics).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969030/

[JimR]

Sudden cardiac death in young people does happen. 

Epidemiology for NCAA athletes:

1 in 53,703 Athlete-years

Risk is not distributed evenly among sports

Male basketball players:
1 in 8978 for all divisions
1 in 5200 for division I

There are various causes, most of which have more to do with subtle mutations in ion channels that control the heart rhythm (squiggly lines on the EKG) than with clogged arteries.  In other words, there is nothing structurally wrong with these hearts: the arteries are open, the valves are normal, and the muscle itself is healthy.

There are structural anomalies that account for some of those deaths (abnormal valves, undiagnosed congenital heart defects, etc) as well.

So it is uncommon but it happens.  This is the impetus behind screening programs (my youngest had screening EKG and echocardiogram before he started athletics).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969030/

Holy crap. I know it happens. I said I thought this guy ODed.

[Mr. Happy]

Wally Pontiff and Don Redden were LSU athletes who died in their sleep of heart disease. My son’s hs classmate had that happen in his first year of med school

I knew both Pontiff and Redden. They both died in their sleep of congenital heart problems.

[Mr. Happy]

Seriously, was anyone surprised? I was not.

I can't say that I wasn't surprised, but I was really hoping for something else to be true. This fentanyl is serious shit, and they're lacing heroin and other drugs with it. There's no way that I would take any pill today without knowing the source, and I say that as a guy who once bought over $30,000 of Xanax in one year from internet sellers overseas. The fentanyl is strong shit. The situation is still tragic, and I mourn for his family.

[JimR]

I can't say that I wasn't surprised, but I was really hoping for something else to be true. This fentanyl is serious shit, and they're lacing heroin and other drugs with it. There's no way that I would take any pill today without knowing the source, and I say that as a guy who once bought over $30,000 of Xanax in one year from internet sellers overseas. The fentanyl is strong shit. The situation is still tragic, and I mourn for his family.

For the family’s sake, I was hoping for a heart defect. Hope only. I would have bet a small amount on opioids.

[Waldo]

So I know next to nothing about fentanyl or the drug culture in general.  Why is it found in these pills in the first place?  Do bad actors put it in the pills specifically for the reason of harming/killing people, or it is because the drug can have other desirable effects when combined with oxy?

[Mr. Happy]

So I know next to nothing about fentanyl or the drug culture in general.  Why is it found in these pills in the first place?  Do bad actors put it in the pills specifically for the reason of harming/killing people, or it is because the drug can have other desirable effects when combined with oxy?

This is from drugs.com and just says it:

GENERALLY AVOID: Concomitant use of opioids with benzodiazepines or other central nervous system (CNS) depressants (e.g., nonbenzodiazepine sedatives/hypnotics, anxiolytics, muscle relaxants, general anesthetics, antipsychotics, other opioids, alcohol) may result in profound sedation, respiratory depression, coma, and death. The risk of hypotension may also be increased with some CNS depressants (e.g., alcohol, benzodiazepines, phenothiazines).

[Lefty]

So I know next to nothing about fentanyl or the drug culture in general.  Why is it found in these pills in the first place?  Do bad actors put it in the pills specifically for the reason of harming/killing people, or it is because the drug can have other desirable effects when combined with oxy?

It's basically a stronger version of oxycontin.  People build up a tolerance to the weaker stuff and search out stronger alternatives, typically they end up as heroin junkies.  Illegal shipments from China account for most of the non-medical use/abuse in the US.

His urinalysis also showed oxymorphone, which is serious shit given to, say, end-stage cancer patients.  This wasn't a one-time mistake.

[JimR]

It's basically a stronger version of oxycontin.  People build up a tolerance to the weaker stuff and search out stronger alternatives, typically they end up as heroin junkies.  Illegal shipments from China account for most of the non-medical use/abuse in the US.

His urinalysis also showed oxymorphone, which is serious shit given to, say, end-stage cancer patients.  This wasn't a one-time mistake.

Meaning possible addiction?

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Meaning possible addiction?

Can't say from an single time point.

But likely.

[Lefty]

Meaning possible addiction?

I don't know, but the signs certainly point that way.  It's also possible he didn't know what he was taking, there's a lot of shady shit on the black market, counterfeits, intentional mislabeling, etc....However, the fact that the oxymorphone was in his urine but not in his blood, per the ME report, means it was not taken the night he died.

The opioid crisis in America is an actual National Emergency that nobody seems to want to do much about.

[JimR]

I don't know, but the signs certainly point that way.  It's also possible he didn't know what he was taking, there's a lot of shady shit on the black market, counterfeits, intentional mislabeling, etc....However, the fact that the oxymorphone was in his urine but not in his blood, per the ME report, means it was not taken the night he died.

The opioid crisis in America is an actual National Emergency that nobody seems to want to do much about.

Well, the obvious answer is to not takes unprescribed opoids, but I guess that is too easy.

[chuck]

Well, the obvious answer is to not takes unprescribed opoids, but I guess that is too easy.

I'm sure you know this but in many cases an addiction is formed from routinely prescribed opioids taken as directed.

[Lefty]

Well, the obvious answer is to not takes unprescribed opoids, but I guess that is too easy.

Yeah, the whole Just Say No thing hasn't worked so well for the past 40 years

[JimR]

Yeah, the whole Just Say No thing hasn't worked so well for the past 40 years

I am talking about individual decisions, not an ad campaign.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Yeah, the whole Just Say No thing hasn't worked so well for the past 40 years

Neither has the DEA.

[Lefty]

Neither has the DEA.

Yep.

[Lefty]

It's basically a stronger version of oxycontin.  People build up a tolerance to the weaker stuff and search out stronger alternatives, typically they end up as heroin junkies.  Illegal shipments from China account for most of the non-medical use/abuse in the US.

His urinalysis also showed oxymorphone, which is serious shit given to, say, end-stage cancer patients.  This wasn't a one-time mistake.

Got this from an MD acquaintance of mine:

Oxymorphone, while prescribed for SEVERE pain (Opana) is also the result of oxycodone having been metabolized by the liver. Unfortunately the presence of both oxymorphone and fentanyl would point to the possibility he was given fake oxycodone from someone. There are fentanyl laced oxycodone pills circulating around. If users are not careful and take 30mg blue oxycodone pills that are obtained from something other than a licensed pharmacy they are running the risk of getting fentanyl laced oxycodone pills. Fentanyl is extraordinarily strong. So strong it is prescribed in MICROgrams instead of milligrams like other pain medicines. I feel for his family. They have more questions than answers now.
 

[geezerdonk]

Millions of Americans have fallen into addiction; many of those have succumbed to overdose. Hundreds of millions have not. Is it possible that the good fortune of the latter group is at least in part attributable to the efforts of the DEA and programs like Just Say No?

[JimR]

Millions of Americans have fallen into addiction; many of those have succumbed to overdose. Hundreds of millions have not. Is it possible that the good fortune of the latter group is at least in part attributable to the efforts of the DEA and programs like Just Say No?

For only me: I say no.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

This piece addresses the fentanyl issue:

https://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-drugs-20190706-story.html

[Lefty]

This piece addresses the fentanyl issue:

https://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-drugs-20190706-story.html

Thank you for posting that.

[Gizzmonic]

Millions of Americans have fallen into addiction; many of those have succumbed to overdose. Hundreds of millions have not. Is it possible that the good fortune of the latter group is at least in part attributable to the efforts of the DEA and programs like Just Say No?

Definitely. Unfortunately, we don't have a parallel universe where heroin is legal to test this theory. My guess is that the US would be healthier with legal heroin than unlabeled fentanyl...but again, no real way to test this theory.

[JimR]

“Legal heroin.”
Mind-boggling.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

“Legal heroin.”
Mind-boggling.

The boggled minds of the Dutch.

"Public-health experts in the Netherlands say free distribution is one reason that drug-related deaths are far less common than in the United States. The program also has reduced crime and improved the quality of life for many users."

[Tom Servo]

The boggled minds of the Dutch.

"Public-health experts in the Netherlands say free distribution is one reason that drug-related deaths are far less common than in the United States. The program also has reduced crime and improved the quality of life for many users."

Portugal decriminalized all drugs to positive results.

[JimR]

The boggled minds of the Dutch.

"Public-health experts in the Netherlands say free distribution is one reason that drug-related deaths are far less common than in the United States. The program also has reduced crime and improved the quality of life for many users."

I am the parent of someone who overcame dangerous crystal meth addiction. I cannot think of anything worse than letting people use heroin without legal consequences. Reduced crime? I guess so. They made it legal so possession and distribution must also be legal. How many of those experts want their kids addicted to heroin?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I am the parent of someone who overcame dangerous crystal meth addiction. I cannot think of anything worse than letting people use heroin without legal consequences. Reduced crime? I guess so. They made it legal so possession and distribution must also be legal. How many of those experts want their kids addicted to heroin?

I'm glad your daughter has overcome her addiction issues and is prospering but your singular experience aside, I'm wondering if you read the whole article?  It's not about legal heroin as much as it's about lessening crime by supplanting the black market trade and saving lives by reducing overdose deaths. I'm not saying I think it's the right thing to do or even that I'm for it, I'm saying it is being done in other places with positive analytical results.

[JimR]

I'm glad your daughter has overcome her addiction issues and is prospering but your singular experience aside, I'm wondering if you read the whole article?  It's not about legal heroin as much as it's about lessening crime by supplanting the black market trade and saving lives by reducing overdose deaths. I'm not saying I think it's the right thing to do or even that I'm for it, I'm saying it is being done in other places with positive analytical results.

No, I did not read it. Do you have lids? Do you want them taking heroin? Is being an alive addict strung out on heroin better than death?

[Mr. Appropriate]

Absolutely none of those experts wants their kid addicted to heroin (or meth). But there are lots of reasons to doubt that criminal sanctions are a useful response to a medical issue.
One sometimes overlooked consequence of the U.S. addiction epidemic is the horrific violence and political destabilization that the billions of drug profits cause in countries like Mexico, el Salvador, and Honduras. We are causing regional instability by foolishly continuing to apply criminal sanctions (which are often unevenly applied according to race and class).

Jim im sure your family members addiction was a terrible thing for everyone in your family. my family (like almost every other in America) has been affected by addiction too. But in retrospect, it was medical intervention, not criminal sanctions that saved my relative from heroin.

[JimR]

Absolutely none of those experts wants their kid addicted to heroin (or meth). But there are lots of reasons to doubt that criminal sanctions are a useful response to a medical issue.
One sometimes overlooked consequence of the U.S. addiction epidemic is the horrific violence and political destabilization that the billions of drug profits cause in countries like Mexico, el Salvador, and Honduras. We are causing regional instability by foolishly continuing to apply criminal sanctions (which are often unevenly applied according to race and class).

Jim im sure your family members addiction was a terrible thing for everyone in your family. my family (like almost every other in America) has been affected by addiction too. But in retrospect, it was medical intervention, not criminal sanctions that saved my relative from heroin.

Not mine. In patient rehab started her recovery, and incarceration turned her around. I am thankful law enforcement intervened and glad she had serious consequences for her behavior.

[Waldo]

Not mine. In patient rehab started her recovery, and incarceration turned her around. I am thankful law enforcement intervened and glad she had serious consequences for her behavior.

Is it possible that she could have recovered without incarceration if drug legalities were different?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Not mine. In patient rehab started her recovery, and incarceration turned her around. I am thankful law enforcement intervened and glad she had serious consequences for her behavior.

Was she incarcerated for possession or was it something more?

[JimR]

Is it possible that she could have recovered without incarceration if drug legalities were different?

Not in my opinion. Rehab enabled her to escape addiction. She needed consequences for her behavior, and incarceration turned her around. This was not a possession case. She was involved with very bad people. Incarceration convinced her she did not want to be there again. Best thing that ever happened to her.

[Mr. Appropriate]

Not mine. In patient rehab started her recovery, and incarceration turned her around. I am thankful law enforcement intervened and glad she had serious consequences for her behavior.

Im very glad it worked for her.

I also think that similar, non criminal , procedures could be used to help people who are destroying themselves with addiction. It was being jailed for a third dui that helped a relative turn his life around. That and his youngest kid telling his mother that he wanted a new daddy.

I think mass incarceration is a terrible problem that weakens our country and removing addicts and the mentally ill from the criminal justice system would take one of many burdens off our nation's back.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Is being an alive addict strung out on heroin better than death?

Yes. One there is always a chance of getting better.

[Mr. Appropriate]

Yes. One there is always a chance of getting better.

Funny, heroin is one of the very few drugs I never tried. Was a big william s. Burroughs fan as a teenager and it always Suprised me when someone I knew using heroin mentioned his writing as the inspiration. I thought it was pretty clear from his work that using heroin was a horrible idea (junkie, naked lunch etc.) while using ayahuasca might be an excellent one (yage letters).

[JimR]

Yes. One there is always a chance of getting better.

Oh, please.

[WVastro]

Most of this discussion ignores the underlying  mental illnesses that accompany the majority of addictions. People will self-medicate when necessary, especially when the alternative is bipolar episodes or severe anxiety etc. I’m not sure what the solution is.

 Wish I did, it’d be nice to see my sister again.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Funny, heroin is one of the very few drugs I never tried. Was a big william s. Burroughs fan as a teenager and it always Suprised me when someone I knew using heroin mentioned his writing as the inspiration. I thought it was pretty clear from his work that using heroin was a horrible idea (junkie, naked lunch etc.) while using ayahuasca might be an excellent one (yage letters).

Yeah, I don't get how those books would inspire someone to use heroin. I never read The Yage Letters. I don't know when or if he ever quit using but Burroughs lived to be 83 and remained productive until his death. Quite an amazing life.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Oh, please.

No, thank you.

[Mr. Appropriate]

Yeah, I don't get how those books would inspire someone to use heroin. I never read The Yage Letters. I don't know when or if he ever quit using but Burroughs lived to be 83 and remained productive until his death. Quite an amazing life.

Surrounded by loved ones in Lawrence Kansas was not an obvious way for him to go. Funny thing is heroin itself does not seem to shorten the longevity if the other hazards of the lifestyle don't do you in. Yes, an interesting life indeed. One of my favorite quotes of his that i actually put into practice is, "if it's worth doing, its worth doing badly."

[Lefty]

Most of this discussion ignores the underlying  mental illnesses that accompany the majority of addictions. People will self-medicate when necessary, especially when the alternative is bipolar episodes or severe anxiety etc. I’m not sure what the solution is.

 Wish I did, it’d be nice to see my sister again.

This is why addiction and mental health treatment is vastly superior to incarceration wrt addiction relapse and related crime recidivism.

WRT the Dutch and other countries, a lot of what they do is not "free heroin for everybody", it's methodone and clean needles distributed by their national network of doctors.  Only the hardcore addicts, who will never quit, get enough actual drugs to keep them on a level, cuts down on property crime and robbery/assault and most of them can actually function and hold down menial to basic jobs.  Or so I've read, it's been a bit since I've really looked at the non-penal solutions that have been tried in other countries.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

There are methadone clinics in this state; I don't know how these compare to the programs mentioned above.

[JimR]

Most of this discussion ignores the underlying  mental illnesses that accompany the majority of addictions. People will self-medicate when necessary, especially when the alternative is bipolar episodes or severe anxiety etc. I’m not sure what the solution is.

 Wish I did, it’d be nice to see my sister again.

Mental illness seems to be the cause of everything from mass shooting to heroin addiction. No.

[JimR]

This is why addiction and mental health treatment is vastly superior to incarceration wrt addiction relapse and related crime recidivism.

WRT the Dutch and other countries, a lot of what they do is not "free heroin for everybody", it's methodone and clean needles distributed by their national network of doctors.  Only the hardcore addicts, who will never quit, get enough actual drugs to keep them on a level, cuts down on property crime and robbery/assault and most of them can actually function and hold down menial to basic jobs.  Or so I've read, it's been a bit since I've really looked at the non-penal solutions that have been tried in other countries.

Lots of judgmental advice on here from folks who do not appear to have lived with/through it. Speaking for only me, law enforcement turned my daughter’s like around. Her arrest and pending trial, along with a hard shove from her lawyer (a friend of mine since JHS), were the combined impetus to get her to rehab. From there, she made the decision to get clean and to change, as all addicts must. Twelve Steps and a year-long incarceration (halfway house the last six months)together with her personal commitment to change were her salvation. She had lived a life largely without consequences to that point (for which I deserve blame), and she needed consequences for her behavior. I am happy law enforcement intervened, and if I could have stopped the court proceedings, I would not have done it.

I have written about her if you are interested enough to read. See “Redemption” on the front page.

[Snuffy]

(to JimR) I'm glad your daughter has overcome her addiction issues and is prospering but your singular experience aside, I'm wondering if you read the whole article?  It's not about legal heroin as much as it's about lessening crime by supplanting the black market trade and saving lives by reducing overdose deaths. I'm not saying I think it's the right thing to do or even that I'm for it, I'm saying it is being done in other places with positive analytical results.

I have read the article several times and this is part of what haunts me....

"....The concept is rooted in several key ideas: (#3)  Public health policies should be determined by pragmatism, not morality.

....van den Hoogen (who runs the clinic) '…It's a last-resort option.   It's not a program that is meant to help you stop.  It keeps you addicted.'"

Skaggs appeared to be "connected" but was his addiction known and intervention offered?  Did he seek help other than getting the pills?  Surely he was not the only one in the clubhouse using drugs.

[Snuffy]

....Speaking for only me, law enforcement turned my daughter’s life around. Her arrest and pending trial, along with a hard shove from her lawyer (a friend of mine since JHS), were the combined impetus to get her to rehab. From there, she made the decision to get clean and to change, as all addicts must. .... She had lived a life largely without consequences to that point (for which I deserve blame), and she needed consequences for her behavior. I am happy law enforcement intervened, and if I could have stopped the court proceedings, I would not have done it.

I have written about her if you are interested enough to read. See “Redemption” on the front page.

TY for sharing, Coach.  Thankful the consequences helped her hit the wall and seek changes.
Pls provide a link for "Redemption".

[Waldo]

Lots of judgmental advice on here from folks who do not appear to have lived with/through it. Speaking for only me, law enforcement turned my daughter’s like around. Her arrest and pending trial, along with a hard shove from her lawyer (a friend of mine since JHS), were the combined impetus to get her to rehab. From there, she made the decision to get clean and to change, as all addicts must. Twelve Steps and a year-long incarceration (halfway house the last six months)together with her personal commitment to change were her salvation. She had lived a life largely without consequences to that point (for which I deserve blame), and she needed consequences for her behavior. I am happy law enforcement intervened, and if I could have stopped the court proceedings, I would not have done it.

I have written about her if you are interested enough to read. See “Redemption” on the front page.

I don't think anyone is judging or otherwise belittling your/your daughter's experience.  I have read your post about your daughter, and in fact have re-read it multiple times because it gives me the slightest glimmer of hope for my cousin in an otherwise completely hopeless situation.  I think we are all glad that your daughter got the wake-up call she needed to get her life right and that she is now thriving.

But I also think that your daughter is pretty close to a best-case scenario in the current US legal/drug policy landscape; there are a lot of people for whom incarceration doesn't work, and they either wind up going in and out of jail and/or they end up dead.  My cousin, who has battled addiction for over two decades, is one of them.  She went to jail, got clean for a while, then got addicted again, lost custody of her kids, got clean again, then relapsed, etc.  For her, jail time and the threat of losing her kids, and then even actually losing her kids, wasn't enough to break her cycle of addiction.  She wanted to get clean but couldn't, and still can't.  I think many in my extended family think it's only a matter of time before we hear that she has died of an overdose.

Mental illness seems to be the cause of everything from mass shooting to heroin addiction. No.

Man, I could not disagree more.  If we're going to treat alcoholism as an illness worthy of various kinds of treatment (not the least of which is mental health services like counseling and support groups), let's treat drug addiction the same way.  (I could also say the same for obesity, but that's another topic for another day.)  My cousin lives in a state that's not going to go out of its way to really help her.  If you are a junkie then you're getting punished every time because surely the next punishment will set you straight, and if it doesn't then you must just want to remain a junkie.  If she ODs then the state won't give a shit.

There's a lot more to her situation that's so fucked up (through no direct fault of her own) I want to punch a hole in my computer screen, but I won't go into that here.  Suffice it to say she has never gotten treatment for her addictive behavior, which to me is ground zero for treating her addiction.  I can't help but wonder if things would have, and maybe still could, turn out differently for her if there were a better system in place besides arrest-incarcerate-release-repeat.  That's why I asked if your daughter would have reacted positively to something other than just being put in jail.

If you still haven't read Sphinx's article about the Netherlands, I'd really encourage you to do so.  I don't know that I agree with their policy 100% either, but the statistics speak for themselves.  Even if my cousin remains addicted I'd much rather she be that way in a relatively more controlled, safer manner, with the possibility that she can recover somewhere down the road, as has happened in the Netherlands.  As things stand now I can't hold out much hope for her.

[Waldo]

TY for sharing, Coach.  Thankful the consequences helped her hit the wall and seek changes.
Pls provide a link for "Redemption".

Here you go.

[JimR]

I don't think anyone is judging or otherwise belittling your/your daughter's experience.  I have read your post about your daughter, and in fact have re-read it multiple times because it gives me the slightest glimmer of hope for my cousin in an otherwise completely hopeless situation.  I think we are all glad that your daughter got the wake-up call she needed to get her life right and that she is now thriving.

But I also think that your daughter is pretty close to a best-case scenario in the current US legal/drug policy landscape; there are a lot of people for whom incarceration doesn't work, and they either wind up going in and out of jail and/or they end up dead.  My cousin, who has battled addiction for over two decades, is one of them.  She went to jail, got clean for a while, then got addicted again, lost custody of her kids, got clean again, then relapsed, etc.  For her, jail time and the threat of losing her kids, and then even actually losing her kids, wasn't enough to break her cycle of addiction.  She wanted to get clean but couldn't, and still can't.  I think many in my extended family think it's only a matter of time before we hear that she has died of an overdose.

Man, I could not disagree more.  If we're going to treat alcoholism as an illness worthy of various kinds of treatment (not the least of which is mental health services like counseling and support groups), let's treat drug addiction the same way.  (I could also say the same for obesity, but that's another topic for another day.)  My cousin lives in a state that's not going to go out of its way to really help her.  If you are a junkie then you're getting punished every time because surely the next punishment will set you straight, and if it doesn't then you must just want to remain a junkie.  If she ODs then the state won't give a shit.

There's a lot more to her situation that's so fucked up (through no direct fault of her own) I want to punch a hole in my computer screen, but I won't go into that here.  Suffice it to say she has never gotten treatment for her addictive behavior, which to me is ground zero for treating her addiction.  I can't help but wonder if things would have, and maybe still could, turn out differently for her if there were a better system in place besides arrest-incarcerate-release-repeat.  That's why I asked if your daughter would have reacted positively to something other than just being put in jail.

If you still haven't read Sphinx's article about the Netherlands, I'd really encourage you to do so.  I don't know that I agree with their policy 100% either, but the statistics speak for themselves.  Even if my cousin remains addicted I'd much rather she be that way in a relatively more controlled, safer manner, with the possibility that she can recover somewhere down the road, as has happened in the Netherlands.  As things stand now I can't hold out much hope for her.

I did not mean anyone was judging Elizabeth, Waldo. I know her situation and what caused her to wake up. The court in her case mandated treatment/rehab. She would not have gone to in-patient without it. Lots you do not know, but your advice is plentiful. Lots of luck to your cousin, but controlled addiction is not a solution.

[Waldo]

I did not mean anyone was judging Elizabeth, Waldo. I know her situation and what caused her to wake up. The court in her case mandated treatment/rehab. She would not have gone to in-patient without it. Lots you do not know, but your advice is plentiful. Lots of luck to your cousin, but controlled addiction is not a solution.

Fuck, Jim, I'm not trying to give you advice about your daughter.  All I'm trying to say is that her experience is not one-size-fits-all and has done fuck-all for my cousin, and has maybe even been worse for her.  If controlled addiction can help smokers (nicotine patches/gum), maybe it can help people addicted to harder drugs.  The question is worth asking.  But by all means please continue to categorically dismiss any mention of it.  Plentiful advice, indeed.

[Snuffy]

Here you go.

TY for the link, Waldo; just read it.

[Gizzmonic]

Forgetting heroin and all the connotations of 'hard drug', strung out junkies stealing car stereos while shooting up between their nuts, etc...tramadol (lower grade synthetic opiate) is available OTC in many countries.

Opium has been used since ancient times, and thus we have a vast knowledge/history of the drug. Unlike meth, cocaine, and alcohol, it doesn't directly damage your brain (although it can mess up your nerves if you take a long timme) . You can withdraw without doctor supervision (alcohol and benzo withdrawal is likely to kill you without medical intervention). Not to imply that these drugs are good for you, obviously they're not.

But I think legalizing one of the weaker, less addictive opiates would take the piss out of both the drug cartels and the pill-pushing pharmaceutical companies. What we're doing now is not working, and thousands are dying as a result. Let's try something different.

[Mr. Appropriate]

I did not mean anyone was judging Elizabeth, Waldo. I know her situation and what caused her to wake up. The court in her case mandated treatment/rehab. She would not have gone to in-patient without it. Lots you do not know, but your advice is plentiful. Lots of luck to your cousin, but controlled addiction is not a solution.

"Controlled addiction is not a solution,"--you don't know what you are talking about. In Texas, right now (as mentioned earlier in this thread) Methadone and similar drugs are being used to help people control the physical dimension of opiate addiction. It is definitely part of the solution.

And I do wonder if using your daughter's name is respectful of her privacy. Not something I think a Dad should do, We can respectfully disagree on this one too. 

Maybe being often wrong could provide grounds to reconsider  the wisdom of never doubting some of your views. Such as the DH. Like me you have seemed to at least learned to accept it (though I AM looking forward to seeing Greinke bat). And maybe you are fucking wrong to approve of degenerate junkies going through opiate withdrawals in a jail cells or the street.


 

[Astros Fan in Big D]

I think everyone on this thread should take a moment or three before posting.

Many life experiences being reflected upon and shared, most of which are packed with hard, painful emotions.

[Waldo]

And I do wonder if using your daughter's name is respectful of her privacy. Not something I think a Dad should do, We can respectfully disagree on this one too. 

You don't know whether he got her permission or not.

[WVastro]

Mental illness seems to be the cause of everything from mass shooting to heroin addiction. No.

Before I lost my sister to addiction she thought she was in a relationship with Eminem. But you know best.

[JimR]

Before I lost my sister to addiction she thought she was in a relationship with Eminem. But you know best.

You have one example from your personal history. So do I. I also went to outpatient meetings and Al-Anon meetings. There I heard professionals speak. Mental illness may be true for your sister and others, but professionals say addict take drugs (or drink) because they want to and come up with a million excuses why.

[toddthebod]

Back to Skaggs for a second.  The moment that Skaggs' death was announced, I was certain that something like this would be the case.  And the longer it went without the autopsy results being made public, the more my feelings were reinforced.  And perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but it feels to me that when baseball players die under these circumstances, maybe MLB (and its media operations) should ease up on the over-the-top tributes immediately thereafter.  They did this with Skaggs.  They did this with Jose Fernandez who it turned out was coked up and drunk.  They did this with Halladay after he was killed in the plane crash and it turned out that he had morphine, amphetamines, and alcohol in his system.   And those are just the few that stick out in my mind.  Perhaps MLB should be a little more circumspect about these deaths -- at least until the circumstances are known.

Second, the fact that the family now claims that this was totally out of character for Skaggs doesn't seem real to me.  Or maybe they just didn't know their son.  Baseball players obviously spend a lot of time away from their family.  But how did Heaney, supposedly his best friend on the team -- not know.  It is fairly obvious to me when the people around me are doing drugs.  What also bothers me is that the family hired Rusty Hardin to represent them in their "investigation" also bothers me.  Now it just feels like there is a money play going on.  It's not our son's fault.  It's the Angels fault.  So they should pay.  Waiting to see how this plays out.

[Bench]

Back to Skaggs for a second.  The moment that Skaggs' death was announced, I was certain that something like this would be the case.  And the longer it went without the autopsy results being made public, the more my feelings were reinforced.  And perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but it feels to me that when baseball players die under these circumstances, maybe MLB (and its media operations) should ease up on the over-the-top tributes immediately thereafter.  They did this with Skaggs.  They did this with Jose Fernandez who it turned out was coked up and drunk.  They did this with Halladay after he was killed in the plane crash and it turned out that he had morphine, amphetamines, and alcohol in his system.   And those are just the few that stick out in my mind.  Perhaps MLB should be a little more circumspect about these deaths -- at least until the circumstances are known.

I think it's fine to memorialize someone's death regardless of the cause. It's still tragic.

[toddthebod]

I have no problem with a memorial.  My problem is with the over the top tributes.  If you watched or listened to the coverage on the MLB Network and MLB Network Radio, Skaggs was a saint.  So maybe be a little more circumspect. 

[moriartp]

I have no problem with a memorial.  My problem is with the over the top tributes.  If you watched or listened to the coverage on the MLB Network and MLB Network Radio, Skaggs was a saint.  So maybe be a little more circumspect.

Why would it make a difference? Does he now mean less to his teammates, family, or anyone else who knew him and spoke so highly of him? Addiction isn’t a stain on his character. It doesn’t make him a worse person. If the tributes were deserved without the drug use, they were still deserved with it.

[Mr. Appropriate]

I think it's fine to memorialize someone's death regardless of the cause. It's still tragic.

+1

Caminiti's death was equally sad as Kyle's, just less surprising.

[Mr. Happy]

Mental illness seems to be the cause of everything from mass shooting to heroin addiction. No.

As a recovering addict, I agree wholeheartedly with Coach. I no longer buy all the crap about addiction being a disease; big pharma has co-opted medicine. Addiction is a choice, a very reckless choice. I tell people who are suffering in active addiction that they are free to pick their own bottom. Of course, the lowest bottom is overdose/death.

People can come back with the lame reply that they can't help using, but I counter with pick your own bottom. I then tell them that my bottom was a week in the suicide cage of a very cold parish jail. I tell them about a couple of friends who weren't so lucky. But it all goes back to a fundamental choice.

[Snuffy]

I have no problem with a memorial.  My problem is with the over the top tributes.  If you watched or listened to the coverage on the MLB Network and MLB Network Radio, Skaggs was a saint.  So maybe be a little more circumspect.

I agree.  Only the players know how much their tears and tributes may be include some guilt - wondering what they could have said or done to help their hurting friend who died such a horrible death.  Did he die alone? 

Funerals sometimes can bring mixed emotions for me: grief mixed with some regrets.  It's way too easy to be distracted, forget what's important.  We don't know how much time anyone's got.

[Snuffy]

As a recovering addict, I agree wholeheartedly with Coach. I no longer buy all the crap about addiction being a disease; big pharma has co-opted medicine. Addiction is a choice, a very reckless choice. I tell people who are suffering in active addiction that they are free to pick their own bottom. Of course, the lowest bottom is overdose/death.

People can come back with the lame reply that they can't help using, but I counter with pick your own bottom. I then tell them that my bottom was a week in the suicide cage of a very cold parish jail. I tell them about a couple of friends who weren't so lucky. But it all goes back to a fundamental choice.

Thank you!

[Duman]

As a recovering addict, I agree wholeheartedly with Coach. I no longer buy all the crap about addiction being a disease; big pharma has co-opted medicine. Addiction is a choice, a very reckless choice. I tell people who are suffering in active addiction that they are free to pick their own bottom. Of course, the lowest bottom is overdose/death.

People can come back with the lame reply that they can't help using, but I counter with pick your own bottom. I then tell them that my bottom was a week in the suicide cage of a very cold parish jail. I tell them about a couple of friends who weren't so lucky. But it all goes back to a fundamental choice.

Working in foster care for almost 30 years, I have seen a lot of pain caused by drugs, alcohol, gambling, and many other things that folks are addicted to that don't get the attention of the biggies.  I have heard all the explanations and for me it is a combination of all of them mixed in different elements for each person.  Family dynamics, past trauma, biology, addictive personality, and choices all play a big role.  That what makes it so hard to treat and why no one treatment works well for everyone. 

Is it a medical issue?  Yes all types of addiction are related to neuro chemical release.
Is it a choice issue?  Absolutely,
Can past trauma make it worse?  You betcha
Can family dynamics impact it?  Sometimes

The bottom line what makes addiction so baffling is that it is personal.  No treatment program has 100% effectiveness.  When you hear addiction tx folks talk, they talk about relapse being a part of recovery.  Beating addiction is hard.  So proud of the folks who beat it.  I try to have grace for those who are fighting the battle.  That is when I am not pissed off at them for the pain and destruction their life is impacting on others. 

Also based on the fact that many of those addicted to opiates started with prescription drugs that were controlled by both the FDA and the CDC, and that I have seen folks on methadone for years with no planned step down because clinics make money off of repeat customers, I am highly skeptical of any government program being successful in our economic environment.  Greed is addiction too.

[das]

My problem is with the over the top tributes.  If you watched or listened to the coverage on the MLB Network and MLB Network Radio, Skaggs was a saint.

From your lofty internet perch, do you know that he wasn't?  The people in his closest circles, those that actually know him, sure thought he was.

For the larger group, just because someone has opiates in their bloodstream, does not mean they are an addict.  If, for example, someone with a barking shoulder is given a common pain killer by a trusted friend, it does not mean they are an addict.  It just means they made a really stupid mistake.

Maybe Skaggs was an addict.  Maybe he wasn't.  Some on here are asserting, assuming or suggesting he was and that is not fair to him or his memory.

[MRaup]

From your lofty internet perch, do you know that he wasn't?  The people in his closest circles, those that actually know him, sure thought he was.

For the larger group, just because someone has opiates in their bloodstream, does not mean they are an addict.  If, for example, someone with a barking shoulder is given a common pain killer by a trusted friend, it does not mean they are an addict.  It just means they made a really stupid mistake.

Maybe Skaggs was an addict.  Maybe he wasn't.  Some on here are asserting, assuming or suggesting he was and that is not fair to him or his memory.

The amount of judginess and outright terrible opinions in this thread is pretty incredible. (Obviously not aimed at you, das)

[Bench]

The amount of judginess and outright terrible opinions in this thread is pretty incredible. (Obviously not aimed at you, das)

No shit. People can and should be sad when people they know and love die.

[Lefty]

No shit. People can and should be sad when people they know and love die.

Sometimes you see it too often.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Listen to Bagwell's voice when the subject turns to Ken Caminiti.

It's love,  not shame,  that you'e hearing.

[toddthebod]

Maybe Skaggs was an addict.  Maybe he wasn't. 

Proof that being circumspect is the right way to go.

[Ty in Tampa]

Proof that being circumspect is the right way to go.

Why is waiting to find out if he was an addict prudent before celebrating his life? Jeez, you folks are some harsh motherfuckers.

[JimR]

Why is waiting to find out if he was an addict prudent before celebrating his life? Jeez, you folks are some harsh motherfuckers.

Indeed. Some addicts come from decent families.

[Ty in Tampa]

Indeed. Some addicts come from decent families.

It's not like he bashed a teammate in the head with a bat.

[JimR]

It's not like he bashed a teammate in the head with a bat.

Ha!

[Outlawscotty]

It's not like he bashed a teammate in the head with a bat.

or beat his girlfriend.  No one here knows the absolute truth in either case.

[JimR]

or beat his girlfriend.  No one here knows the absolute truth in either case.

Amazing. Nuke the thread.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Indeed. Some addicts come from decent families.

True. There is no common denominator. Non addicts and good people come from bad families too. I've seen great parents that did everything right and still had their kids turn out bad. I've seen some really bad parents turn out some good citizens. The variables do not all exist inside the family, they are not insular. Also I have seen some pretty messed up people turn their lives around and become good productive people.

[Snuffy]

True. There is no common denominator.... The variables do not all exist inside the family, they are not insular. Also I have seen some pretty messed up people turn their lives around and become good productive people.

Indeed!   No common denominator.
Don't Bagwell and Caminiti seem to demonstrate this? 
Didn't they both play through a lot of pain?
How did Bagwell avoid drugs and survive while Caminiti could not? 

PS: TY for the feedback, Coach.

[JimR]

Indeed!   No common denominator.
Don't Bagwell and Caminiti seem to demonstrate this? 
How did Bagwell survive while Caminiti did not?

Bagwell?

[Snuffy]

Listen to Bagwell's voice when the subject turns to Ken Caminiti.
It's love,  not shame,  that you'e hearing.

No doubt that Bagwell loved Caminiti, still does! 
So does Biggio!  Just learned he received permission from the the family to move Caminiti's body to his ranch in 2007.
Don't our hearts ache for his girls, wishing they had been able to have more memories with him - and that he could have had a chance to become a grandfather.

[JimR]

Did not mean to disparage him for he did not follow Caminiti's path.
But they both played in a lot of pain.

That certainly is not what your post implied.

[The Third Man]

  Now it just feels like there is a money play going on.  It's not our son's fault.  It's the Angels fault.  So they should pay.  Waiting to see how this plays out.

I definitely think we should see how this plays out- we don't have enough information and never have. His family, friends and team are going to be hurting regardless.

[Waldo]

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/27828247/los-angeles-angels-employee-details-team-knowledge-tyler-skaggs-drug-use-federal-dea-investigators-espn

This may be becoming a big deal. The Angels’ director of communications supplied Skaggs with the drugs and told the DEA that five other Angels players use. Also said that the team’s former VP - who is now the president of the HOF - knew about Skaggs’s drug use.

[juliogotay]

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/27828247/los-angeles-angels-employee-details-team-knowledge-tyler-skaggs-drug-use-federal-dea-investigators-espn

This may be becoming a big deal. The Angels’ director of communications supplied Skaggs with the drugs and told the DEA that five other Angels players use. Also said that the team’s former VP - who is now the president of the HOF - knew about Skaggs’s drug use.

Rusty Hardin representing the family. I was trying to remember where I had heard that name.....Roger Clemens.

[JimR]

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/27828247/los-angeles-angels-employee-details-team-knowledge-tyler-skaggs-drug-use-federal-dea-investigators-espn

This may be becoming a big deal. The Angels’ director of communications supplied Skaggs with the drugs and told the DEA that five other Angels players use. Also said that the team’s former VP - who is now the president of the HOF - knew about Skaggs’s drug use.

The HOF guy is a close friend of my scout friend.