Author Topic: Astros OF Defense (Read 6068 times)

juliogotay · « **on:** February 15, 2019, 11:39:36 am »

attached uses a lot of the analytical data to evaluate the OF defense of Astros in 2016. https://www.crawfishboxes.com/2019/2/14/18224761/astros-2018-positional-defense-in-review-outfielders

It's a little long....pretty much confirms what our eyes tell us seeing these guys day after day, i.e., Reddick is pretty good, Marisnick is very good and Springer is ok. They all throw pretty well but Marwin's defense will be missed according to this data.

Reuben · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2019, 09:51:32 pm »

I’m gonna be the jerk who comments without reading the linked article, but I think Springer is much better than “OK”. We all know that Jake is the best, but I think of George as clearly an above-average MLB CF, and far above average compared to most RFers.

MusicMan · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2019, 09:33:54 am »

Quote from: juliogotay on February 15, 2019, 11:39:36 am

attached uses a lot of the analytical data to evaluate the OF defense of Astros in 2016. https://www.crawfishboxes.com/2019/2/14/18224761/astros-2018-positional-defense-in-review-outfielders

It's a little long....pretty much confirms what our eyes tell us seeing these guys day after day, i.e., Reddick is pretty good, Marisnick is very good and Springer is ok. They all throw pretty well but Marwin's defense will be missed according to this data.

Imagine telling your 2013 self that we’re going to miss Marwin’s defense in LF.

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HudsonHawk · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2019, 09:40:30 am »

Quote from: Reuben on February 16, 2019, 09:51:32 pm

I’m gonna be the jerk who comments without reading the linked article, but I think Springer is much better than “OK”. We all know that Jake is the best, but I think of George as clearly an above-average MLB CF, and far above average compared to most RFers.

I disagree. I think Springer is a fine outfielder, an excellent one. But we are in sort of the Golden Age of Defensive Centerfielders, IMHO. There are some fantastic defensive outfielders in the game today. Springer is middle of the pack.

Col. Sphinx Drummond · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2019, 01:08:45 pm »

Cain, Kiermaier, Buxton. Hamilton, and Inciarte, to my eyes, are better than George. Mainly because of their first step off the bat and ability to run to the best spot to catch the ball. After those guys it becomes more muddied. If Jake played every day he would be there with that group.

MusicMan · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2019, 01:30:30 pm »

Kiermaier, Buxton, and Hamilton are all up there with the all-time elite.

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Jacksonian · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2019, 02:39:19 pm »

Best all-time Astros center field defender?

GreatBagwellsBeard · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2019, 02:43:31 pm »

Quote from: Jacksonian on February 18, 2019, 02:39:19 pm

Best all-time Astros center field defender?

I always loved Wily Tavares in CF.

Jacksonian · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2019, 02:45:58 pm »

Quote from: GreatBagwellsBeard on February 18, 2019, 02:43:31 pm

I always loved Wily Tavares in CF.

My first thought was who was better than Michael Bourn?

BudGirl · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2019, 02:49:34 pm »

Quote from: Jacksonian on February 18, 2019, 02:45:58 pm

My first thought was who was better than Michael Bourn?

While I am a huge fan of Michael Bourn, you wouldn't count Beltran? Or did he not have enough time in 2004 to count?

subnuclear · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2019, 03:07:12 pm »

Steve Finley was also a good one, but I don't know if how he stacks up.

Jacksonian · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2019, 03:08:41 pm »

Quote from: BudGirl on February 18, 2019, 02:49:34 pm

While I am a huge fan of Michael Bourn, you wouldn't count Beltran? Or did he not have enough time in 2004 to count?

Beltran was exceptional as well. I asked the question because I couldn't think of an obvious answer.

Noe · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2019, 04:04:22 pm »

Quote from: Jacksonian on February 18, 2019, 03:08:41 pm

Beltran was exceptional as well. I asked the question because I couldn't think of an obvious answer.

Cesar Cedeno, five time gold glove winner at center field in the NL.

TeeJoe · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2019, 04:21:32 pm »

Quote from: Noe in Austin on February 18, 2019, 04:04:22 pm

Cesar Cedeno, five time gold glove winner at center field in the NL.

Finley had 5 gold gloves! Just none while with the Stros...

MusicMan · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2019, 04:54:59 pm »

Quote from: BudGirl on February 18, 2019, 02:49:34 pm

While I am a huge fan of Michael Bourn, you wouldn't count Beltran? Or did he not have enough time in 2004 to count?

Beltran is the correct answer.

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BudGirl · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2019, 04:56:50 pm »

Quote from: MusicMan on February 18, 2019, 04:54:59 pm

Beltran is the correct answer.

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Noe's pick is interesting. You'd have to do a best CF for the Astrodome and MMP.

Noe · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2019, 05:09:20 pm »

Quote from: BudGirl on February 18, 2019, 04:56:50 pm

Noe's pick is interesting. You'd have to do a best CF for the Astrodome and MMP.

Yup. One underated CF for the Houston Astros was Terry Puhl, who eventually moved to RF because of his very strong arm. Puhl was not flashy nor took chances in the vast expanse of the Astrodome, like say Cedeno did. Instead Puhl played an exceptionally good CF and Right by being consistent and always being correct where he threw the ball. One manager said of Puhl "That guy never makes a mistake!" and he meant in his timing off the bat, his ability to cut off a ball before it went to the gap, his ability to judge what base he should throw to and the ability to hit a cut-off man.

While Cedeno was the best CF I saw play in the Dome (and really for the Astros over all), Puhl was my favorite player and one that I copied in terms of style and ability when I played CF in high school.

JimR · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2019, 05:31:35 pm »

I agree with Noe. Cedeno.

Mr. Happy · « **Reply #18 on:** February 18, 2019, 05:34:18 pm »

Quote from: JimR on February 18, 2019, 05:31:35 pm

I agree with Noe. Cedeno.

Another vote for Cedeno.

geezerdonk · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2019, 05:51:45 pm »

Marisnick

Col. Sphinx Drummond · « **Reply #20 on:** February 18, 2019, 06:24:23 pm »

The Toy Cannon was pretty good in the 60s but I give the nod to the guy who moved him to RF, Cedeno.

TerryPuhl21 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 18, 2019, 07:16:04 pm »

Quote from: Noe in Austin on February 18, 2019, 05:09:20 pm

Yup. One underated CF for the Houston Astros was Terry Puhl, who eventually moved to RF because of his very strong arm. Puhl was not flashy nor took chances in the vast expanse of the Astrodome, like say Cedeno did. Instead Puhl played an exceptionally good CF and Right by being consistent and always being correct where he threw the ball. One manager said of Puhl "That guy never makes a mistake!" and he meant in his timing off the bat, his ability to cut off a ball before it went to the gap, his ability to judge what base he should throw to and the ability to hit a cut-off man.

While Cedeno was the best CF I saw play in the Dome (and really for the Astros over all), Puhl was my favorite player and one that I copied in terms of style and ability when I played CF in high school.

As you can tell from my moniker, Puhl was then, and is now, my all time favorite Astro. I too did my best to emulate him when I played, even down to the number 21. He wasn’t flashy, and he did everything well. I just liked the way he carried himself with a quiet confidence. He was the very definition of a solid baseball player.

I’ll never quite get over 1980......

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TerryPuhl21 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 18, 2019, 07:18:29 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Happy on February 18, 2019, 05:34:18 pm

Another vote for Cedeno.

He gets my vote as well.

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chuck · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2019, 08:53:54 pm »

Cedeño was by far the better all around player, but I have never seen anyone better in CF defensively than Jake.

If Cedeño played today he would be one of those guys with a $150MM contract. I mean, his WAR as a 21 year old was 8. Mike Trout's at 21 was 9.

Lefty · « **Reply #24 on:** February 18, 2019, 11:06:22 pm »

As a CF? the answer is Cedeno, and sorry Jake, Carlos, whoever, but it ain't that close.

Noe · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2019, 11:55:18 pm »

One thing Cedeno had over Jake and Finley is a cannon of an arm (hence why he was eventually moved to RF, much to his dislike, late in his career). Jake runs fast, Cedeno did too, and both just used their horse to outrun the ball. Finley was quick so his reaction time was really outstanding. Ability to come in or back on a ball I'd say it's a push between all three. But again, the nod goes to Cedeno for the better arm of the three.

Col. Sphinx Drummond · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2019, 07:30:45 am »

I think Jake has every bit as strong of a throwing arm as Cedeno. I remember Cesar Geronimo having an even better arm than Cedeno.

Col. Sphinx Drummond · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2019, 07:42:15 am »

I played CF, RF, and 2nd base. Had a noodle arm but could go get it and hit the cut-off man. Cedeno was my guy. I even had a Rawlings Cesar Cedeno autograph glove. I loved making a long running catch more than anything.

JimR · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2019, 07:55:01 am »

Quote from: Col. Sphinx Drummond on February 19, 2019, 07:30:45 am

I think Jake has every bit as strong of a throwing arm as Cedeno. I remember Cesar Geronimo having an even better arm than Cedeno.

Oh goodness, no.

juliogotay · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2019, 07:59:10 am »

I wish I had gotten to see more of Cedeno in CF. Living in Corpus we only got a handful of televised games a year and to appreciate a players' defense you have to see them pretty much daily. I know he was outstanding but I've really come to admire Jake's defense. If there is a ball he doesn't catch it may not be catchable by a human. And his arm is more than adequate. I think the same can be said of Cedeno when his legs were healthy.

juliogotay · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2019, 08:14:41 am »

In another note, Brantley is not expected to see much if any time at 1B this season as per Hinch. https://twitter.com/jakemkaplan/status/1097144389623783424

Col. Sphinx Drummond · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2019, 08:26:48 am »

Quote from: JimR on February 19, 2019, 07:55:01 am

Oh goodness, no.

No Jake or no Geronimo. According to statcast, Jake has one of the top arms in the league.

Fredia · « **Reply #32 on:** February 19, 2019, 09:26:26 am »

it is fun to see him gallop across the field

GreatBagwellsBeard · « **Reply #33 on:** February 19, 2019, 09:28:59 am »

If we're talking OF arms, Richard Hildalgo took my breath away multiple times.

MRaup · « **Reply #34 on:** February 19, 2019, 12:15:08 pm »

Quote from: GreatBagwellsBeard on February 19, 2019, 09:28:59 am

If we're talking OF arms, Richard Hildalgo took my breath away multiple times.

Also true of OF junk in the trunk.

MusicMan · « **Reply #35 on:** February 19, 2019, 12:54:46 pm »

Quote from: GreatBagwellsBeard on February 19, 2019, 09:28:59 am

If we're talking OF arms, Richard Hildalgo took my breath away multiple times.

Hidalgo had a gun for an arm.

(Too soon?)

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Noe · « **Reply #36 on:** February 19, 2019, 01:44:17 pm »

Quote from: Col. Sphinx Drummond on February 19, 2019, 07:30:45 am

I think Jake has every bit as strong of a throwing arm as Cedeno. I remember Cesar Geronimo having an even better arm than Cedeno.

Are you sure because Cesar had a cannon... Jake has a decent arm, but I would not call it a cannon.

Noe · « **Reply #37 on:** February 19, 2019, 01:48:32 pm »

Quote from: juliogotay on February 19, 2019, 07:59:10 am

I wish I had gotten to see more of Cedeno in CF. Living in Corpus we only got a handful of televised games a year and to appreciate a players' defense you have to see them pretty much daily. I know he was outstanding but I've really come to admire Jake's defense. If there is a ball he doesn't catch it may not be catchable by a human. And his arm is more than adequate. I think the same can be said of Cedeno when his legs were healthy.

What Jake and Cesar had in common is just that... they can outrun a ball. Both had/have outstanding speed and good enough reaction time to get to a ball.

What separated Cesar from the field of CF'ers of his time and also Jake and others is his five-tool prowess. Any time you get compared to a young Willie Mays, you're doing something exceptional, and that was Cesar Cedeno.

juliogotay · « **Reply #38 on:** February 20, 2019, 07:32:34 am »

Looking back at CC: http://www.astroscounty.com/p/the.html

JimR · « **Reply #39 on:** February 20, 2019, 08:53:34 am »

Quote from: juliogotay on February 20, 2019, 07:32:34 am

Looking back at CC: http://www.astroscounty.com/p/the.html

Great story. I had no idea of the extent of his history of violence.

juliogotay · « **Reply #40 on:** February 20, 2019, 11:31:05 am »

Quote from: JimR on February 20, 2019, 08:53:34 am

Great story. I had no idea of the extent of his history of violence.

Makes one wonder what he could have been if he had his head on a little straighter. My dad always thought the Houston franchise had a cloud over their head.

Astros Fan in Big D · « **Reply #41 on:** February 20, 2019, 02:50:09 pm »

Quote from: juliogotay on February 20, 2019, 11:31:05 am

Makes one wonder what he could have been if he had his head on a little straighter. My dad always thought the Houston franchise had a cloud over their head.

Thanks for posting that.

I knew of the hotel shooting and the fight with the fan, but the later stuff was new to me.

Col. Sphinx Drummond · « **Reply #42 on:** February 20, 2019, 03:24:06 pm »

I was living in St. Louis in '85. Everyone thought the Cardinals were finished when Jack Clark got injured. Then came Cedeno. He got red hot and led the team to the pennant and for me, an Astro fan stuck Cardinal land, it really made their run much more bearable, almost enjoyable. Cedeno was never the same after fracturing his ankle in game three of the 1980 LCS. He certainly had some awful off field issues.