Hitting

[JimR]

Because my dog who thinks he is a rooster woke me up at 4 am, I am drinking coffee and reading the SI article on the revolution in hitting theory (launch angle) which has changed the game in MLB today. Fascinating. The revolutionary theory revives the OWA debate on swing plane we had many years ago, which Dark Star made reference to recently. I hope a lot of you will read this article so we can have another discussion about it. I think the article is well-written, fair, and balanced. Obviously, my background is coaching HS kids, some of whom were Division 1 prospects and players, not professional hitters. A few of them of them did sign, of course, but only one reached the majors, and he is a pitcher. My philosophy and approach will always be geared to coaching the kids with varying abilities a HS (or kid baseball) coach gets, not the elite who sign and fail as professional hitters.

The article is in SI’s baseball issue with Judge and Stanton (Of course. Gag) on the cover. I look forward to our discussion.

ETA: I was at the game when Gallo hit the HR featured in the article.

[Duman]

Here is the article

[juliogotay]

Looks similar to the one I posted yesterday.

[Mr. Happy]

Absolutely fascinating article, and a long one at that. As you might expect, I was trying to figure out how to pitch to this new swing. I think that Brent Strom is correct about throwing high fastballs. Climbing the ladder with a two strike pitch makes it much harder to elevate the ball.

[jbm]

Interesting article. I'm always wondering if this type article, giving out the current "secrets," isn't actually purveying lagging info and philosophies of certain teams. Not necessaily about the swing and launch angle, but in more general terms about what teams value.  Specifically, I wonder if the Astros aim to acquire hitters with this profile, or whether they consider this old news. Similarly, whether they aim to acquire pitchers with the profile to combat hitters with this profile.

My gut is the Astros approach this hitting philosophy with more nuance than this article would suggest, but do seek out arms designed to combat this hitting philosophy, as they likely see it as the current industry standard even if it isn't exactly their standard.

[das]

I sure like reading Verducci.  I loved his work during the post season and this article carries that pattern of good work forward.

I love the analytics behind the changing swings in MLB over the last few years.  And, I'll love watching the process of MLB pitchers opposing with increasingly effective countermeasures (like going up the ladder) over time as well.  It's one of the things that makes baseball, watched over a length of seasons, so enjoyable for me.

[JimR]

Interesting article. I'm always wondering if this type article, giving out the current "secrets," isn't actually purveying lagging info and philosophies of certain teams. Not necessaily about the swing and launch angle, but in more general terms about what teams value.  Specifically, I wonder if the Astros aim to acquire hitters with this profile, or whether they consider this old news. Similarly, whether they aim to acquire pitchers with the profile to combat hitters with this profile.

My gut is the Astros approach this hitting philosophy with more nuance than this article would suggest, but do seek out arms designed to combat this hitting philosophy, as they likely see it as the current industry standard even if it isn't exactly their standard.

There is nothing secret about this.

[Jacksonian]

Absolutely fascinating article, and a long one at that. As you might expect, I was trying to figure out how to pitch to this new swing. I think that Brent Strom is correct about throwing high fastballs. Climbing the ladder with a two strike pitch makes it much harder to elevate the ball.

The Astros won the ALCS and WS throwing quality curve balls to it.  How many times did Bellinger strike out?

[JimR]

The Astros won the ALCS and WS throwing quality curve balls to it.  How many times did Bellinger strike out?

Back foot curves and sliders got a lot of the LH, and low and away breakers got the RH hitters to K. No matter what the swing plane in, a quality breaking pitch will get them.

[Mr. Happy]

I sure like reading Verducci.  I loved his work during the post season and this article carries that pattern of good work forward.

I love the analytics behind the changing swings in MLB over the last few years.  And, I'll love watching the process of MLB pitchers opposing with increasingly effective countermeasures (like going up the ladder) over time as well.  It's one of the things that makes baseball, watched over a length of seasons, so enjoyable for me.

You might pitch these feast or famine hitters backwards.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Back foot curves and sliders got a lot of the LH, and low and away breakers got the RH hitters to K. No matter what the swing plane in, a quality breaking pitch will get them.

Went to my nephew's game last week (7th graders).  One of his teammates struck out swinging on a good breaking pitch (started belt high, crossed the plate at the knees).  The kid was PISSED.

If I were in the dugout I'd have told him nobody makes a living hitting good breaking balls. 

But I was in the stands where I belong so I just watched him have his moment.  Being a 7th grader doubtful he'd have listened.

[Jacksonian]

Back foot curves and sliders got a lot of the LH, and low and away breakers got the RH hitters to K. No matter what the swing plane in, a quality breaking pitch will get them.

I was always taught that a flat level line drive swing was the best way to foul off a tough pitch like that.

[JimR]

Went to my nephew's game last week (7th graders).  One of his teammates struck out swinging on a good breaking pitch (started belt high, crossed the plate at the knees).  The kid was PISSED.

If I were in the dugout I'd have told him nobody makes a living hitting good breaking balls. 

But I was in the stands where I belong so I just watched him have his moment.  Being a 7th grader doubtful he'd have listened.

On my really good McCallum team Mark’s senior year (The Improbable Odyssey), one of our hitting coaches was David Lowery who had played at UT and several years in the Rangers organization. Early in the year he said this to our team: “You cannot hit a curve ball. I cannot hit a curve ball. No one can hit a curve ball. We are going to look for fast balls and hit them.”

Out team BA was over .300 in a 31-game season which included a trip to the State Tournament.

[Mr. Happy]

On my really good McCallum team Mark’s senior year (The Improbable Odyssey), one of our hitting coaches was David Lowery who has played at UT and several years in the Rangers organization. Early in the year he said this to our team: “You cannot hit a curve ball. I cannot hit a curve ball. No one can hit a curve ball. We are going to look for fast balls and hit them.”

Out team BA was over .300 in a 31-game season which included a trip to the State Tournament.

That reminds me of Joe Morgan’s description of the difference between a curve ball and a motherfucking curve ball in Ball Four.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

On my really good McCallum team Mark’s senior year (The Improbable Odyssey), one of our hitting coaches was David Lowery who had played at UT and several years in the Rangers organization. Early in the year he said this to our team: “You cannot hit a curve ball. I cannot hit a curve ball. No one can hit a curve ball. We are going to look for fast balls and hit them.”

Out team BA was over .300 in a 31-game season which included a trip to the State Tournament.

'Stay away from spin'

[das]

“You cannot hit a curve ball. I cannot hit a curve ball. No one can hit a curve ball. We are going to look for fast balls and hit them.”

https://streamable.com/v6qmx

[JimR]

https://streamable.com/v6qmx

Word

[HudsonHawk]

In high school I hit cleanup because my coach told me “you’re the only guy on the team that can hit a curveball”. I guess he expected the cleanup guy to see lots of them.  I hated hitting cleanup, but my senior year we had a really good lead off man, so I managed to drive in a fair number of runs. Seems like that guy was always on base.

[Reuben]

I think there's a lot of great info in the article, although I disagree with the implication that the goal is to hit like Joey fucking Gallo. I can't think of a situation where I'd not rather have, say, Alex Bregman at the plate instead of Gallo. \

The article also made me wonder, given how many balls now are being hit to the outfield rather than on the ground (and I think it will keep going up), if the Astros might focus even more on outfielders with superior defense.

[Mr. Happy]

I think there's a lot of great info in the article, although I disagree with the implication that the goal is to hit like Joey fucking Gallo. I can't think of a situation where I'd not rather have, say, Alex Bregman at the plate instead of Gallo. \

The article also made me wonder, given how many balls now are being hit to the outfield rather than on the ground (and I think it will keep going up), if the Astros might focus even more on outfielders with superior defense.

What's the difference from a hitting standpoint between Joey Gallo and Chris Carter? I agree wth you that I'd far prefer Bregman at the plate.

[JimR]

I think there's a lot of great info in the article, although I disagree with the implication that the goal is to hit like Joey fucking Gallo. I can't think of a situation where I'd not rather have, say, Alex Bregman at the plate instead of Gallo. \

The article also made me wonder, given how many balls now are being hit to the outfield rather than on the ground (and I think it will keep going up), if the Astros might focus even more on outfielders with superior defense.

You would take Gallo as the Astros’ DH in a heartbeat, and you would like with whatever Ks came with 40+ HRs.

[Reuben]

You would take Gallo as the Astros’ DH in a heartbeat, and you would like with whatever Ks came with 40+ HRs.

Gallo over Gattis? It's an interesting question. 41 homers is great, and he walks a lot, but a .204 batting average and all the Ks will kill a lot of rallies. He's only 23, so he may get better, whereas Gattis has pretty much established that he is a .250 hitter who will put up around a .310 OBP and hit 30 homers, if he stays healthy and plays everyday. Obviously, any GM would take Gallo right now, because of age and contract status, but if you're talking purely which guy the Astros would want as their DH this year, I'm not so sure. Clearly last year Luhnow intentionally added guys like McCann, Reddick, and Gurriel who strike out a lot less. On the other hand, he traded contact-guy Aoki to install K-machine Fisher. So I really don't know.

[JimR]

Gallo over Gattis? It's an interesting question. 41 homers is great, and he walks a lot, but a .204 batting average and all the Ks will kill a lot of rallies. He's only 23, so he may get better, whereas Gattis has pretty much established that he is a .250 hitter who will put up around a .310 OBP and hit 30 homers, if he stays healthy and plays everyday. Obviously, any GM would take Gallo right now, because of age and contract status, but if you're talking purely which guy the Astros would want as their DH this year, I'm not so sure. Clearly last year Luhnow intentionally added guys like McCann, Reddick, and Gurriel who strike out a lot less. On the other hand, he traded contact-guy Aoki to install K-machine Fisher. So I really don't know.

If Gattis hits 30 HRs this year, I will be very happy...and surprised. Gallo is getting better. Is Gattis? This is all hypothetical, of course. Gallo is not going anywhere.

[Reuben]

If Gattis hits 30 HRs this year, I will be very happy...and surprised. Gallo is getting better. Is Gattis? This is all hypothetical, of course. Gallo is not going anywhere.

Gattis hit 32 (in just 447 ABs) in 2016, and 27 the year before that. I don't think he's getting better, while I'm sure Gallo is. How much better he can get will be interesting to see. If he can move beyond Rob Deer/Chris Carter/Dave Kingman territory and hit around .250, then he'll be the new Adam Dunn.

[JimR]

Gattis hit 32 (in just 447 ABs) in 2016, and 27 the year before that. I don't think he's getting better, while I'm sure Gallo is. How much better he can get will be interesting to see. If he can move beyond Rob Deer/Chris Carter/Dave Kingman territory and hit around .250, then he'll be the new Adam Dunn.

You missed the entire point of the article. Whatever.

[Reuben]

You missed the entire point of the article. Whatever.

You missed the entire point of my post. Whatever.

[Randy Watson]

Gallo had an .870 OPS as a 23 year old.   He's a stud already.  Gattis has never come to .870.

[Duman]

In high school I hit cleanup because my coach told me “you’re the only guy on the team that can hit a curveball”. I guess he expected the cleanup guy to see lots of them.  I hated hitting cleanup, but my senior year we had a really good lead off man, so I managed to drive in a fair number of runs. Seems like that guy was always on base.

This is exactly the question my son's HS coach asked him to start the season.  My son went 3-4 against a team and the next time he saw them he went 1-6 in a DH.  He said he didn't get a single fastball in 6 at bats in the DH.  Seems like there is some wisdom to the question. 

A college coach told my son's travel team several years ago.  I have coached for more than 20 years, I have never, NEVER, had a player who was a better curve ball hitter than a fast ball hitter.  Don't swing at a first pitch curve ball......unless it is hung.  Then kill it.  There is always an exception for every rule.

[JimR]

This is exactly the question my son's HS coach asked him to start the season.  My son went 3-4 against a team and the next time he saw them he went 1-6 in a DH.  He said he didn't get a single fastball in 6 at bats in the DH.  Seems like there is some wisdom to the question. 

A college coach told my son's travel team several years ago.  I have coached for more than 20 years, I have never, NEVER, had a player who was a better curve ball hitter than a fast ball hitter.  Don't swing at a first pitch curve ball......unless it is hung.  Then kill it.  There is always an exception for every rule.

That is what we did. Try to foul off good ones with two strikes, hit a hanger, otherwise take them.

[HudsonHawk]

We got an extra hard swift kick in the ass for swinging at a first pitch breaking ball. It was always “anticipate the fastball, adjust to the curve.”   Some guys are better breaking ball hitters than others, but nobody is good at it.

[NeilT]

We got an extra hard swift kick in the ass for swinging at a first pitch breaking ball. It was always “anticipate the fastball, adjust to the curve.”   Some guys are better breaking ball hitters than others, but nobody is good at it.

I always hit breaking balls at least as well as I hit fastballs.

[VirtualBob]

I always hit breaking balls at least as well as I hit fastballs.

Me too. But I made Bob Uecker look like Barry Bonds facing little league pitchers.

[NeilT]

Me too. But I made Bob Uecker look like Barry Bonds facing little league pitchers.

Me too.