Quintana is off the market

[Andyzipp]

To the Cubs...

https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/885520101251874816

[Navin R Johnson]

Would love to know what a comparable Astros package would look like.   

[JimR]

I hope this gets it going.

[Andyzipp]

Eloy was the number 5 prospect in Baseball on BA's list.
Cease is (one of) their top pitching prospects
Rose is an advanced A 1b, Flete is on the same team as an infielder

[Navin R Johnson]

Looks like the Cubs gave up their top 2 prospects, plus 2 other guys.   I'm glad Luhnow passed on Trading Tucker/Martes and a couple other lower level prospects for Quintana.

[JimR]

Pretty big haul.

[Duke]

Pretty big haul.

Yessir.  I hope that isn't how it all goes down.  I'm guessing we'll stand pat if it does.

[Andyzipp]

Pretty big haul.

I think our comparable would have been Martes/Tucker and two Single A guys.

[JimR]

I think our comparable would have been Martes/Tucker and two Single A guys.

For us, a lot for Quintana, I think.

[Andyzipp]

For us, a lot for Quintana, I think.

Agreed.  I think it sets the market for deGrom though.  But I also think deGrom is a better pitcher than Quintana.

[MRaup]

Desperation is a stinky cologne.

[BUWebguy]

Big move for a team (the Cubs) that's two games under .500 and 7.5 games back of a wild-card spot (5.5 back in the division).

Heck, the White Sox are only 7.5 back of the wild-card (though that, of course, puts them last in the AL).

[JimR]

Agreed.  I think it sets the market for deGrom though.  But I also think deGrom is a better pitcher than Quintana.

I hate to lose Tucker, but that same package for deGrom would not bother me.

ETA: Sox GM said Cubs made "far and away" best offer. MLB says Astros were involved in the talks.

[hostros7]

I hate to lose Tucker, but that same package for deGrom would not bother me.

ETA: Sox GM said Cubs made "far and away" best offer. MLB says Astros were involved in the talks.

Interesting. Is, for example, Fisher and Whitley or Perez plus two single A types really "far and away" worse than what the Cubs offered? That leads me to believe that Tucker wasn't dangled.

After reading about Jimenez (guessing this guy doesn't pretend it's pronounced "JIM-In-EZZ" like that ranger asshat), he seems like the gem of the package and has received Stanton comps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jacksonian]

Would love to know what a comparable Astros package would look like.   

Somewhat equivalent level and position.  Something like Martes, Tucker, Alvarez, and probably Jake Rogers.  All guys who look right now they'll be major league starters in three years or less.

[JimR]

Somewhat equivalent level and position.  Something like Martes, Tucker, Alvarez, and probably Jake Rogers.  All guys who look right now they'll be major league starters in three years or less.

Too much for Quintana, right?

[Jacksonian]

Too much for Quintana, right?

I would say yes.  You've seen Martes throw.  He's just 21.  And unlike the prospects dealt he has MLB experience.  If he's more mature what's his ceiling?  Tucker has everything to be a multiple year all-star.  Alvarez has lit up the batters box as a young hitter for high A which is why he was selected for the futures game.  Jake Rogers is considered one of if not the best defender behind the plate in the minors.  And he's improved his swing so far and is hitting for some power and average.

[Jacksonian]

Am I the only one thinking Luhnow wants to Keuchel back on the hill and see how effectively McHugh can pitch in major league games before making a deal?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Interesting. Is, for example, Fisher and Whitley or Perez plus two single A types really "far and away" worse than what the Cubs offered? That leads me to believe that Tucker wasn't dangled.

After reading about Jimenez (guessing this guy doesn't pretend it's pronounced "JIM-In-EZZ" like that ranger asshat), he seems like the gem of the package and has received Stanton comps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FWIW, that Ranger is a Twin by way of Cleveland, and he spells his name Gimenez. i don't know if he still wears his ass on his head.

[JimR]

Am I the only one thinking Luhnow wants to Keuchel back on the hill and see how effectively McHugh can pitch in major league games before making a deal?

He cannot and should not wait that long. Besides, we need another pitcher regardless.

[JimR]

I would say yes.  You've seen Martes throw.  He's just 21.  And unlike the prospects dealt he has MLB experience.  If he's more mature what's his ceiling?  Tucker has everything to be a multiple year all-star.  Alvarez has lit up the batters box as a young hitter for high A which is why he was selected for the futures game.  Jake Rogers is considered one of if not the best defender behind the plate in the minors.  And he's improved his swing so far and is hitting for some power and average.

The article I just read said the Cubs' A league prospects are not that highly regarded.

[Jacksonian]

He cannot and should not wait that long. Besides, we need another pitcher regardless.

Could be that those available aren't worth enough.  He may be waiting for someone like deGrom to be available.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Am I the only one thinking Luhnow wants to Keuchel back on the hill and see how effectively McHugh can pitch in major league games before making a deal?

I think they'll make a deal when they find one that works best for the team. You can't be too strong.

[Jacksonian]

The article I just read said the Cubs' A league prospects are not that highly regarded.

In that case it seems to me Luhnow wasn't fond enough of Quintana to deal even 2 high level prospects.

[Nate Colbert]

Somewhat equivalent level and position.  Something like Martes, Tucker, Alvarez, and probably Jake Rogers.  All guys who look right now they'll be major league starters in three years or less.

Rose and Flete were not even in the Cubs Top 30 prospects. Alvarez and Rogers of course are for the Astros and the former is knocking on the door as a Top 100 overall prospect.

Martes, Tucker, Carmen Benedetti and Ryne Birk would be closer in terms of talent level.

[JimR]

Rose and Flete were not even in the Cubs Top 30 prospects. Alvarez and Rogers of course are for the Astros and the former is knocking on the door as a Top 100 overall prospect.

Martes, Tucker, Carmen Benedetti and Ryne Birk would be closer in terms of talent level.

I do not know the names you added, but I agree with your assessment.

[Navin R Johnson]

From the twitters....

 Bob Nightengale‏
The Houston #Astros were involved in talks for Quintana, but never came close to offering the package the #Cubs offered to the #Whitesox
11:46 AM - 13 Jul 2017

[Duke]

Am I the only one thinking Luhnow wants to Keuchel back on the hill and see how effectively McHugh can pitch in major league games before making a deal?

Not sure he'll be able to figure that out in the next 18 days.  It would be nice to know before he did something crazy though.

[juliogotay]

at least this year Quintana doesn't look like a difference-maker to me.

                           ERA       AVE        WHIP
Quintana          4.49      .246        1.32

Fiers                  3.84      .243        1.32

Morton             3.82      .250        1.34

I think a healthy McHugh could put up comparable numbers. I'm satisfied that Luhnow kept his powder dry on this one.

[Jacksonian]

Rose and Flete were not even in the Cubs Top 30 prospects. Alvarez and Rogers of course are for the Astros and the former is knocking on the door as a Top 100 overall prospect.

Martes, Tucker, Carmen Benedetti and Ryne Birk would be closer in terms of talent level.

Thanks. I'm not in a position to do the research so I presumed the White Sox wanted higher level players.

[Jacksonian]

Not sure he'll be able to figure that out in the next 18 days.  It would be nice to know before he did something crazy though.

Barring injury McHugh will be pitching in Houston for his next start or the one after that.

[JimR]

Not sure he'll be able to figure that out in the next 18 days.  It would be nice to know before he did something crazy though.

Why would he do something crazy?

[Jacksonian]

For those who can look it up, how many years of control do Stroman and deGrom have left?

[homer]

For those who can look it up, how many years of control do Stroman and deGrom have left?

Stroman 2021
deGrom 2021

[WVastro]

Stroman 2021
deGrom 2021

Stroman is 26 and deGrom 29 fwiw.

[doyce7]

at least this year Quintana doesn't look like a difference-maker to me.

                           ERA       AVE        WHIP
Quintana          4.49      .246        1.32

Fiers                  3.84      .243        1.32

Morton             3.82      .250        1.34

I think a healthy McHugh could put up comparable numbers. I'm satisfied that Luhnow kept his powder dry on this one.

Quintana is having very much a down year. I think most feel he will return to form now that the trade question is behind him. With that said, he's never been too high on my list of guys I'd like to see in an Astros uniform.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Jacksonian]

Stroman is 26 and deGrom 29 fwiw.

My memory says their the 2 best pitchers on teams that don't appear to be headed to the playoffs.

Both will cost a lot.

[doyce7]

Stroman 2021
deGrom 2021

Degrom might be the better pitcher
Stroman is having the better season

I'm not sure if either are really going to be available

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[astrosfan76]

From Heyman's latest:

The Astros balked at the White Sox’s asking price for Jose Quintana, and now with a limited supply of starting pitchers on the market, some Astros people are weighing whether to go after a big-time closer to augment their already strong bullpen. Word is, they’d look at Zach Britton should he ever become available. There’s been no word of a call to the Orioles yet, however.

He mentions earlier in the article that the White Sox were interested in Martes & Tucker in a package. 

I'm not a fan of the package that the Cubs gave up for Quintana, though he has appeared to have bounced back recently. 

https://www.fanragsports.com/mlb/inside-baseball-al-notes-white-sox-farm-system-gets-even-better/

[Duke]

Why would he do something crazy?

Not sure.  Pressure maybe. 

[Jacksonian]

From Heyman's latest:

He mentions earlier in the article that the White Sox were interested in Martes & Tucker in a package. 

I'm not a fan of the package that the Cubs gave up for Quintana, though he has appeared to have bounced back recently. 

https://www.fanragsports.com/mlb/inside-baseball-al-notes-white-sox-farm-system-gets-even-better/

Heyman is useless.  EVERYONE would look at Britton if he became available.  Too one starter only thins the market if no other starter enters the market prior to the deadline.

[jbm]

Quintana is having very much a down year.

May he take his mediocrity to the northside

[moriartp]

Stark says Cole is top on the Astros' list, and they've (predictably) discussed Gray, Verlander, and any other good starter under control past '17.

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/1278121

[Navin R Johnson]

I've been on the bolster the Pen bandwagon for awhile, there just doesn't seem to be any sort of difference making starting pitcher available.   And considering the price the Cubs had to pay to get a ~#3 guy with Mike Fiers #s...    Maybe Luhnow can pull of some Jedi mind tricks and get the A's to part with Gray for Paulino, Fisher and some lower level guys.   

Things can change due to trades, but is there any rotation in the AL that you think, wow the Astros are going to have to hold the other team to 3 or less runs 3/4 times a series to have a chance to advance*

*IF they make the playoffs.

[hostros7]

at least this year Quintana doesn't look like a difference-maker to me.

                           ERA       AVE        WHIP
Quintana          4.49      .246        1.32

Fiers                  3.84      .243        1.32

Morton             3.82      .250        1.34

I think a healthy McHugh could put up comparable numbers. I'm satisfied that Luhnow kept his powder dry on this one.

One of the things that I really like about Luhnow is that he is not rigid about plans and has the confidence and knowledge to adapt and be flexible as situations change.

Ground control isn't incredibly keen on having starters face opposing batters three times in a game, although Keuchel seems to buck this trend. If the market for SPs isnt reasonable, I expect them to be comfortable with McHugh/Morton/Fiers as a potential playoff starter (if they make it) if they can bolster the pen and shorten games. Luhnow thinks Peacock can be used in the current Devenski role as well. Adding a shut down piece or two to the bullpen to go along with Giles/Harris/Gregerson/Feliz et al. and using Devo and Devo Light (Peacock) for a couple crucial innings may be viewed as an attractive alternative to overpaying for SP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BudGirl]

Not sure.  Pressure maybe. 

I would be so disappointed in Luhnow if he made a trade just because he feels pressured.  I think Luhnow makes a trade because he thinks he is getting value for value.  I have never had more faith in a GM to take the Astros to the promise land and conquer that land. 

[Bench]

I've been on the bolster the Pen bandwagon for awhile, there just doesn't seem to be any sort of difference making starting pitcher available.   And considering the price the Cubs had to pay to get a ~#3 guy with Mike Fiers #s...    Maybe Luhnow can pull of some Jedi mind tricks and get the A's to part with Gray for Paulino, Fisher and some lower level guys.   

Things can change due to trades, but is there any rotation in the AL that you think, wow the Astros are going to have to hold the other team to 3 or less runs 3/4 times a series to have a chance to advance*

*IF they make the playoffs.

I agree that the bullpen is both the higher priority and the easier problem to fix. 

[juliogotay]

I would be so disappointed in Luhnow if he made a trade just because he feels pressured.  I think Luhnow makes a trade because he thinks he is getting value for value.  I have never had more faith in a GM to take the Astros to the promise land and conquer that land.

Me, too.

[astrosfan76]

Things can change due to trades, but is there any rotation in the AL that you think, wow the Astros are going to have to hold the other team to 3 or less runs 3/4 times a series to have a chance to advance*

*IF they make the playoffs.

Red Sox? Cleveland?

[Jacksonian]

I've been on the bolster the Pen bandwagon for awhile, there just doesn't seem to be any sort of difference making starting pitcher available.   And considering the price the Cubs had to pay to get a ~#3 guy with Mike Fiers #s...    Maybe Luhnow can pull of some Jedi mind tricks and get the A's to part with Gray for Paulino, Fisher and some lower level guys.   

Things can change due to trades, but is there any rotation in the AL that you think, wow the Astros are going to have to hold the other team to 3 or less runs 3/4 times a series to have a chance to advance*

*IF they make the playoffs.

Cleveland and Boston

[Navin R Johnson]

Hopefully those 2 are facing each other in the 1st round   Granted the Astros have played like crap vs those 2, but I don't think the difference in winning or losing the series is emptying the minors for someone like Quintana.

[JimR]

Hopefully those 2 are facing each other in the 1st round   Granted the Astros have played like crap vs those 2, but I don't think the difference in winning or losing the series is emptying the minors for someone like Quintana.

Luhnow has already said quite clearly is trade strategy will be based on matching up with those two things. Winning the WS is worth anything he has to do to achieve that result.

Quintana is on the Cubs. Why talk about him? Cole, Gray, Hand,  and whoever else may be available are next.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

The White Sox are going to be loaded in a few years.

[Knoxbanedoodle]

The White Sox are going to be loaded in a few years.

Was thinking the same thing. They seem to be doing this right.

[Navin R Johnson]

Quintana is on the Cubs. Why talk about him? Cole, Gray, Hand,  and whoever else may be available are next.

I am simply talking about Quintana because it gives us a good sense of what it is likely going to take to land a ~#3 starter.

[drew corleone]

Some of you seem to have more faith in Fiers/Musgrove/McHugh/Martes in October than I do.

Hypothetical: If DeGrom is on the market do you give up a Bregman/Tucker, Martes, Fisher, Throw-in package for him? Not sure that would even come close to the Mets' asking price, but since we're spit-balling...

I'd love to go after Stroman or Archer, and I think you gladly pay a high price for either of those guys, but I don't think either are going to be on the market for at least another two weeks, barring a disastrous second half start for their respective teams.

[toddthebod]

I know that the White Sox are loading up on prospects, but I keep wondering how they are going to manage their 40 man roster. 

[JimR]

Some of you seem to have more faith in Fiers/Musgrove/McHugh/Martes in October than I do.

Hypothetical: If DeGrom is on the market do you give up a Bregman/Tucker, Martes, Fisher, Throw-in package for him? Not sure that would even come close to the Mets' asking price, but since we're spit-balling...

I'd love to go after Stroman or Archer, and I think you gladly pay a high price for either of those guys, but I don't think either are going to be on the market for at least another two weeks, barring a disastrous second half start for their respective teams.

Your first sentence is reading my mind.

[Duman]

I know that the White Sox are loading up on prospects, but I keep wondering how they are going to manage their 40 man roster.

People were saying the same thing about the Astros a few years ago.  It has worked out pretty well.  They haven't lost any significant pieces, though they got lucky that no one picked up Devo in the rule 5 draft when he was left unprotected.

[astrosfan76]

Some of you seem to have more faith in Fiers/Musgrove/McHugh/Martes in October than I do.

Hypothetical: If DeGrom is on the market do you give up a Bregman/Tucker, Martes, Fisher, Throw-in package for him? Not sure that would even come close to the Mets' asking price, but since we're spit-balling...

I'd love to go after Stroman or Archer, and I think you gladly pay a high price for either of those guys, but I don't think either are going to be on the market for at least another two weeks, barring a disastrous second half start for their respective teams.

Difference between '04 and '05?  Offense was more dynamic in '04, but we went from Munro in the rotation to Pettitte (no guarantee any of the above-listed will be as efficient as Backe in the postseason, either). 

[roadrunner]

I'm in the bullpen camp, too, unless Keuchel and McCullers are seriously injured and this isn't a conservative approach to manage small injuries. 

Look at what Cleveland did last year with Kluber and scrubs in the rotation.  Let's say we have Keuchel, McCullers, Morton, Musgrove/Martes/Fiers as our starting 4.  If any of those guys get off to a rocky start in one of their starts we go straight to Devo.  Then all of a sudden it's a bullpen game because with our offense we will never be out of a game.  Cleveland did the same thing last year with Andrew Miller.

The SP market is too underwhelming to trade Tucker, Bregman, Whitley, or Perez in my mind.  I would consider trading Perez or Whitley for a big time reliever, though.

[Bench]

Some of you seem to have more faith in Fiers/Musgrove/McHugh/Martes in October than I do.

There are also no guarantees that Keuchel and/or McCullers will be available then either.

[Reuben]

There are also no guarantees that Keuchel and/or McCullers will be available then either.

Well, if you want to talk about guarantees, there's no guarantees about any baseball player. You go with your best guess about what condition guys will be in, and try to have enough depth to have reasonable fallback plans.

[MusicMan]

Starting pitcher market likely just intensified - Yankees just lost Pineda, Tommy John surgery likely.

Also, Rosenthal says after acquiring Quintana, Cubs are still pursuing Gray.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[das]

Starting pitcher market likely just intensified - Yankees just lost Pineda, Tommy John surgery likely.

Also, Rosenthal says after acquiring Quintana, Cubs are still pursuing Gray.

Oddly, I am ok with this.  I am happy for both the Yanks and Cubs to overpay for ok-to-good #3 or #4 pitchers to completely dilute the SP market.  Puts the Astros focus on where I think it should be, BP help.  Because, what I think is important for the Astros to hear and react to, of course.

[Navin R Johnson]

According to some MLB folks, Astros pursuing Tigers lefty reliever Justin Wilson.

[JimR]

According to some MLB folks, Astros pursuing Tigers lefty reliever Justin Wilson.

In part, they say, because Luhnow tried to get him at the winter meetings. Wilson is having a great year.

[MusicMan]

In part, they say, because Luhnow tried to get him at the winter meetings. Wilson is having a great year.

Tigers wanted Derek Fisher for him in the winter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Reuben]

Tigers wanted Derek Fisher for him in the winter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

This winter, Fisher was coming off a year where he batted .245 with 16 HR in 102 games at Corpus. This year, of course, he's raked at Fresno, and cut his strikeout rate way down. His stock has gone up a lot since winter.

Clearly, Luhnow declined to give him up for Wilson at the time. It's true that Wilson has also improved his stock - 2.36 ERA, 0.93 WHIP, 12.8 K/9, he's having his best season - but I'd imagine the answer would still be No.

[Bench]

Well, if you want to talk about guarantees, there's no guarantees about any baseball player. You go with your best guess about what condition guys will be in, and try to have enough depth to have reasonable fallback plans.

True, of course.  But for those saying we don't need an ace (and I am one of those) there's a lot of faith that Keuchel's nerve issue can be put behind him and that McCullers can stay healthy for the rest of the season and into October. 

[juliogotay]

True, of course.  But for those saying we don't need an ace (and I am one of those) there's a lot of faith that Keuchel's nerve issue can be put behind him and that McCullers can stay healthy for the rest of the season and into October.

I think Keuchel is the key to any sustained playoff success this team has.

[Reuben]

I think Keuchel is the key to any sustained playoff success this team has.

Bingo.

[moriartp]

Alert: Sonny Gray has been scratched from tonight's start.

Edit: Nope. A's deny report. False alarm.

[austro]

Alert: Sonny Gray has been scratched from tonight's start.

Hmmmmm.....

[Nate Colbert]

Alert: Sonny Gray has been scratched from tonight's start.

False report.

[DVauthrin]

In part, they say, because Luhnow tried to get him at the winter meetings. Wilson is having a great year.

Would be a great addition.  Gives Hinch a reliable lefty late inning option.