FYI

[JimR]

Answer to question I had:

Astros in HOF
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Ivan Rodriguez (2009)
Randy Johnson (1998)
Don Sutton (1981-82)
Nolan Ryan (1980-88)
Robin Roberts (1965-66)
Joe Morgan (1963-71)
Eddie Mathews (1967)
Nellie Fox (1964-65)

[Mr. Happy]

Answer to question I had:

Astros in HOF
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Ivan Rodriguez (2009)
Randy Johnson (1998)
Don Sutton (1981-82)
Nolan Ryan (1980-88)
Robin Roberts (1965-66)
Joe Morgan (1963-71 and 1980)
Eddie Mathews (1967)
Nellie Fox (1964-65)

One nit. Picked.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

In Cooperstown, they sell t-shirts with a list of all players associated w/ each franchise who are in the HoF.  They're going to have to reprint the 'Stros one now.

Clearly, the Rays is the saddest one.  I think it's just Wade Boggs and nobody else.

[HudsonHawk]

In Cooperstown, they sell t-shirts with a list of all players associated w/ each franchise who are in the HoF.  They're going to have to reprint the 'Stros one now.

Clearly, the Rays is the saddest one.  I think it's just Wade Boggs and nobody else.

Al Lopez was *from* Tampa, as was Boggs.  Aside from that, they'll have to wait until Derek Bell gets his due from the VC.  Or maybe Lance McCullers in 2039. 

[JimR]

One nit. Picked.

My bad. It was on the list I saw, and I forgot to add 1980.

[David in Jackson]

I think I read that Pudge is first HOFer since 1974 to have worn a DET uniform.

[MusicMan]

I think I read that Pudge is first HOFer since 1974 to have worn a DET uniform.

You have triggered my Alan Trammell RAEG.


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[HudsonHawk]

You have triggered my Alan Trammell RAEG.


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Not to mention that only after you put Jack Morris in will I allow you to make a case for Curt Schilling. 

[juliogotay]

Not to mention that only after you put Jack Morris in will I allow you to make a case for Curt Schilling.

Good point.

[mrpink]

Good point.

Why?

[Reuben]

Not to mention that only after you put Jack Morris in will I allow you to make a case for Curt Schilling.

By what measure was Jack Morris better than Curt Schilling? Wins? Yes, he won 254 games, Schilling won 216. I don't see any other area where Schilling wasn't better, and in most cases, far better.

Morris: 3.90 ERA, 1.29 WHIP, .577 W%, 2,478 K (5.8 K/9), 105 ERA+. 7-4 with a 3.80 ERA in the postseason. 4-2, 2.96 in the WS.

Schill: 3.46 ERA, 1.13 WHIP, .597 W%, 3,116 K (8.6 K/9), 127 ERA+. 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in the postseason. 4-1, 2.06 in the WS.

The only other advantage Morris has basically is in total Innings, Games, etc. He had 3,824 IP to Schilling's 3,261.

Look, I think Curt Schilling is a fucking dickhead, but there is no question in my mind that he has a far better HOF case than Morris.

[MusicMan]

Not to mention that only after you put Jack Morris in will I allow you to make a case for Curt Schilling.

Trammell and Morris were on the same ballot 13 times. Morris got more votes all 13 times. Meaning that, on 13 consecutive occasions, the BBWAA collectively didn't know shit from shinola.


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[HudsonHawk]

By what measure was Jack Morris better than Curt Schilling? Wins? Yes, he won 254 games, Schilling won 216. I don't see any other area where Schilling wasn't better, and in most cases, far better.

Morris: 3.90 ERA, 1.29 WHIP, .577 W%, 2,478 K (5.8 K/9), 105 ERA+. 7-4 with a 3.80 ERA in the postseason. 4-2, 2.96 in the WS.

Schill: 3.46 ERA, 1.13 WHIP, .597 W%, 3,116 K (8.6 K/9), 127 ERA+. 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in the postseason. 4-1, 2.06 in the WS.

The only other advantage Morris has basically is in total Innings, Games, etc. He had 3,824 IP to Schilling's 3,261.

Look, I think Curt Schilling is a fucking dickhead, but there is no question in my mind that he has a far better HOF case than Morris.

Then by all means cast your vote for Schilling. I will not, and it has nothing to do with his politics.

[juliogotay]

Why?

Morris threw half his innings in a bandbox.

[HudsonHawk]

Morris threw half his innings in a bandbox.

In the American League. And had to throw the 8th and 9th innings more than twice as often.  But more importantly to me, I watched them both pitch. 

[mrpink]

Morris threw half his innings in a bandbox.

I'll give you that, but the hitters he faced slugged about 20 points less than the guys Schilling faced.

[Reuben]

Morris threw half his innings in a bandbox.

In the American League. And had to throw the 8th and 9th innings more than twice as often.  But more importantly to me, I watched them both pitch. 

Morris' career was mostly in the '80's, Schilling's was entirely in the juiced-up '90's & 2000's, so he actually pitched in much more hitter-friendly conditions. The "ERA+" stat adjusts for differences in ballpark and era, and Schilling comes out way ahead in that category.

[mrpink]

Morris' career was mostly in the '80's, Schilling's was entirely in the juiced-up '90's & 2000's, so he actually pitched in much more hitter-friendly conditions. The "ERA+" stat adjusts for differences in ballpark and era, and Schilling comes out way ahead in that category.

Exactly.  When you take context into account, Morris is like a slightly worse and longer lived version of Mark Buehrle.  I don't know if that's a hall of famer or not, but it's definitely not Schilling.

[Nate Colbert]

Trammell and Morris were on the same ballot 13 times. Morris got more votes all 13 times. Meaning that, on 13 consecutive occasions, the BBWAA collectively didn't know shit from shinola.

And those same collective shitheads couldn't even keep Lou Whitaker on the ballot for more than one year (and Whitaker has a better Hall argument than Morris).

[HudsonHawk]

Morris' career was mostly in the '80's, Schilling's was entirely in the juiced-up '90's & 2000's, so he actually pitched in much more hitter-friendly conditions. The "ERA+" stat adjusts for differences in ballpark and era, and Schilling comes out way ahead in that category.

No ERA+ doesn't adjust for era, it simply compares guys to the rest of the league at the time. It doesn't normalize guys' stats to some independent benchmark. It's a comparison of guys to their contemporaries, not a comparison across different eras. I know it's commonly presented and used that way, but that's incorrect.

Like I said, if you want to vote for Schilling, knock yourself out. I watched them both pitch. Morris was every bit as good. And the common meme about Schilling deserving the HOF based on his one bloody sock game in the World Series... watch Morris in the '84 Series and then tell me who you'd take to pitch that one game.  If you still want a Schilling, fine.

[VirtualBob]

... watch Morris in the '84 Series and then tell me who you'd take to pitch that one game. 

This!!

But I still think Trammel & Whitaker have better cases for the HOF.

[Knoxbanedoodle]

Didn't Morris pitch game 7 in '91, too? All ten innings of it?

[HudsonHawk]

This!!

But I still think Trammel & Whitaker have better cases for the HOF.

I'm not trying to suggest that Trammell and Whitaker don't have a case.  I'm not sure why everyone keeps jumping to that assumption.  My feelings on Trammell have been well documented around here for more than a decade.  I'm merely stating that this idea that Schilling is a no-doubter, first ballot, landslide lock HOFer, except people don't like who he voted for President, is bullshit.  He's a borderline candidate, not unlike guys like Morris, and that's been reflected in the vote.  It has nothing to do with some vast left-wing conspiracy for a New World Order and a HOF populated with only Democrats. 

[Knoxbanedoodle]

I think I agree with you, but given Smoltz's reception I'd wager Schilling's a first-ballot lock.

[Bench]

I think I agree with you, but given Smoltz's reception I'd wager Schilling's a first-ballot lock.

I'll take that bet!  I'll even give you odds against his second ballot. 

[HudsonHawk]

I think I agree with you, but given Smoltz's reception I'd wager Schilling's a first-ballot lock.

Smoltz is another head scratcher.  I thought "sure, here's a guy who deserves serious consideration, and I can see him getting lots of votes, maybe eventually getting in."  But the reaction of shock that someone had the audacity to *not* vote for him, was bizarre. 

It's kind of like how I'm gobsmacked that Jim Edmonds didn't get any consideration at all.  For his 17-year career, Edmonds hit:

.284/.376/.527 (OPS of .903) with 393 HRs, 1199 RBI and 1251 runs scored. 

By comparison, he had an almost exact contemporary for those 17 years, playing the same position in the same league in the same division:

.278/.371/.550 (OPS of .921) with 543 HRs, 1492 RBI and 1351 runs scored.

Now I'm not saying that Player X isn't deserving, but why is it that Edmonds doesn't even deserve to be debated and considered, yet we're ready to form a witch hunt to burn at the stake the one guy who *didn't* vote for Player X?

[Ty in Tampa]

Morris: 3.90 ERA, 1.29 WHIP, .577 W%, 2,478 K (5.8 K/9), 105 ERA+. 7-4 with a 3.80 ERA in the postseason. 4-2, 2.96 in the WS.

Schill: 3.46 ERA, 1.13 WHIP, .597 W%, 3,116 K (8.6 K/9), 127 ERA+. 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in the postseason. 4-1, 2.06 in the WS.

I don't think either of these are HOF worthy.

[VirtualBob]

I'm not trying to suggest that Trammell and Whitaker don't have a case.  I'm not sure why everyone keeps jumping to that assumption.  My feelings on Trammell have been well documented around here for more than a decade.  I'm merely stating that this idea that Schilling is a no-doubter, first ballot, landslide lock HOFer, except people don't like who he voted for President, is bullshit.  He's a borderline candidate, not unlike guys like Morris, and that's been reflected in the vote.  It has nothing to do with some vast left-wing conspiracy for a New World Order and a HOF populated with only Democrats.

Whoa. Where did that come from? All I said was:
1. IMO Morris is way more HOFish than Schilling.
2. IMO Both Trammel & Whitaker are more HOFish than Morris.

I was not accusing you of taking the opposite side of either point.