This is why I hate travel teams/elite little league tournament teams

[Noe]

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/6/24/8831551/little-league-big-trouble

Excerpt:

Despite this somewhat pugnacious nature, Janes devoutly believes in fair play, especially in children’s sports. In our several interviews, Janes was outspoken against the rapid advancement of travel club sports. He argued that travel sports creates an uneven playing field for families who can afford thousands of dollars per year to put their kids onto professionally coached teams, leaving behind kids of more modest means. “He doesn’t believe in that for the little guys,” Martus said. “He believes everyone should have equal opportunity. I guess that does make him kind of a rebel, huh?”

With Janes guided by this philosophy, it becomes more understandable why he would take on a crusade against a Little League team stacked with expertly-trained travel players.

But perhaps even more, Janes thinks that, with its high-caliber players, JRW showed poor sportsmanship when its All-Star team demolished the Evergreen Park All Stars by 41 runs in that Little League sectional game last summer.

“It’s an eye-popping score, isn’t it?” Janes asked me. “No one ever sees that score [in Little League], because no coach lets it get to that point. They stop runners at third. They bat a right-handed kid left-handed to get an out, or they do something, anything, to stop from scoring, if they can. But sending home a runner from first on a single, when you’re already up by 31 runs? Stealing second and third base when you are up by 31 runs? What is going on? Jackie Robinson just poured it on us.”

At the center of this issue is the extraordinary expansion of travel club baseball in recent years. All of the 2014 JRW players — and most of the players on other teams that made it to Williamsport — also played for elite travel teams outside their community leagues. But Evergreen Park has held firm that no travel players are permitted in its Little League. This places the community at a severe disadvantage at tournament time. “For Chris, he’s not about turning his kids into college athletes. That’s not what motivates him in youth sports,” Martus said. “He wants kids to turn out to be the best adults that we can make them. That’s what Chris strives for with his own kids and with the kids he coaches.”

I wish there was a way to run little leagues without the involvement of adults. Oh yeah, that's call sandlot baseball. But there is big money nowadays surrounding little league, with ESPN coverage, adults drinking the cool-aid about these kids learning how to play the game right, etc. etc. etc. Yeah, right. Now in the fairness of this whole matter, I have to admit that my nephews all played or participated in touring teams (elite baseball). My sisters and their husbands paid a ton of money to get their kids exposed and into good colleges to play baseball and earn degrees. If that were the only focus, or even if the focus were to get a bunch of good playing kids to play against a bunch of other good playing kids one Saturday from all different areas, that is another.

But that's not what this has become. Now we're at the point where racism is being bantered about, a feel good story about an urban Chicago team last year turns really ugly (on all parts) and many are left to eat their responsibility or wash themselves of this mess. I wish I could say this madness will end anytime soon, in fact I hold to a different opinion - it will only get worse. There is big money at stake and adults with a warp sense of what is right too. That can only spell disaster one day... far worse than it is today.

{/steps off high horse}

[Mr. Happy]

Travel ball teams not only promote poor sportsmanship, they give a false sense of superiority for parents who are forcing their children to go for the brass ring that few of them ever achieve. Travel teams have done more to cause children to burn out and resent the game and their parents than you know. Children miss out today on playing multiple sports during a regular session rotation.

I think that playing baseball year-round is real bad for arms too. I played American Legion ball back in the day, but only during the summer. Whatever happened to that? When I was a youth pitching coach, I used to encourage boys to take breaks from throwing. In fact, I used to refuse to teach them year round. I pissed off more than one parent, usually a dad, by doing that.

[NeilT]

Travel ball teams not only promote poor sportsmanship, they give a false sense of superiority for parents who are forcing their children to go for the brass ring that few of them ever achieve. Travel teams have done more to cause children to burn out and resent the game and their parents than you know. Children miss out today on playing multiple sports during a regular session rotation.

I think that playing baseball year-round is real bad for arms too. I played American Legion ball back in the day, but only during the summer. Whatever happened to that? When I was a youth pitching coach, I used to encourage boys to take breaks from throwing. In fact, I used to refuse to teach them year round. I pissed off more than one parent, usually a dad, by doing that.

My son played travel ball. We ended up playing a lot of teams in east Houston with names like Los Lobos, where no English was spoken on the other team.  It was great.  He played a lot of soccer, he was an eagle scout, but travel ball was always great fun for everybody involved.  And Los Lobos usually whipped his teams' ass.

[JimR]

Year round travel baseball ruins arms as well as neighborhood leagues. It is a sickness.

[NeilT]

Year round travel baseball ruins arms as well as neighborhood leagues. It is a sickness.

Plus the kids aren't available for the spring planting. 

[roadrunner]

Not to mention it burns a lot of kids out on the game before they even finish high school.

[kevwun]

It's a great idea for a family to spend thousands of dollars so junior can maybe one day get a tenth of a baseball scholarship to Directional State University.  Not to mention how select ball dictates the entire family's lives for months at a time.  I don't know how anyone thinks it's a good idea.

[HudsonHawk]

It's a great idea for a family to spend thousands of dollars so junior can maybe one day get a tenth of a baseball scholarship to Directional State University.  Not to mention how select ball dictates the entire family's lives for months at a time.  I don't know how anyone thinks it's a good idea.

And the chances of Junior getting that 1/10th scholarship are mighty slim.  Chances are he won't make the high school team.  Junior ain't that good. 

[Mr. Happy]

And the chances of Junior getting that 1/10th scholarship are mighty slim.  Chances are he won't make the high school team.  Junior ain't that good.

People don't understand that the NCAA, in its infinite asshattery, only allows 11.7 scholarships for baseball (it used to be 13, but they cut it back 10%). No one gets a full ride anymore anywhere. Coaches have to get creative with scholarship splits, other scholarships and Pell grants.

[Andyzipp]

Not affiliated with Little League of America (Nations Baseball) but I took great pleasure in kicking a stealth select team out of one of our summer tournaments this year.  We're very clear about the eligibility, intending for the neighborhood leagues to compete with one another.  And every year, we have at least one team who misrepresents themselves and signs up.

The coach was agast that we weren't interested in letting him play.  Agape and ajaw.

[kevwun]

People don't understand that the NCAA, in its infinite asshattery, only allows 11.7 scholarships for baseball (it used to be 13, but they cut it back 10%). No one gets a full ride anymore anywhere. Coaches have to get creative with scholarship splits, other scholarships and Pell grants.

Yep, a really, really good college player might get half of a scholarship if he's lucky.

[subnuclear]

I'm really disconnected with all this, but it seems like most people know their kids aren't going to get scholarships, but they do like them to be involved with successful things as much as possible. This is true with everything, everywhere, 24/7.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm really disconnected with all this, but it seems like most people know their kids aren't going to get scholarships, but they do like them to be involved with successful things as much as possible. This is true with everything, everywhere, 24/7.

I think it's more than you realize.  I see many, many parents who see their kid as being the best out there and this being a mechanism to stardom.  I suppose the former has always been true to some extent, especially among parents who really can't recognize talent or the lack thereof. 

[Jacksonian]

I'm really disconnected with all this, but it seems like most people know their kids aren't going to get scholarships, but they do like them to be involved with successful things as much as possible. This is true with everything, everywhere, 24/7.

My experience with parents on these teams is that a) they want to get their kid on the high school team so that then they have a shot at a college team and b) there is a prestige for the parent in their minds about their son being on a team like this.  This is the worst as it makes their children's activities about the parent.  I actually don't see that many dads living out their dreams through their sons.  They are out there but not as many as I think folks believe.

[Limey]

The coach was agast that we weren't interested in letting him play.  Agape and ajaw.

And ahole.

[Limey]

I'm really disconnected with all this, but it seems like most people know their kids aren't going to get scholarships, but they do like them to be involved with successful things as much as possible. This is true with everything, everywhere, 24/7.

You think that parents can look at their own kids with a disinterested eye?

[subnuclear]

You think that parents can look at their own kids with a disinterested eye?

I hang around a lot of engineers and scientists.

[NeilT]

We're active with Houston' magnet high school for the arts, HSPVA, and a couple of weekends ago had an interesting conversation about the dancers who get admitted. Apparently they have a hard time getting diversity, both racial and economic, in the dance program. To be a good enough dancer at 14, you've had years of dancing, including $1000s of dollars of lessons. Piano is much the same, except you've also spent $10 or $15,000 for a decent piano. Same for violin, where a bow can cost a couple of thousand and a good violin as much as a piano. And it's even harder to end up in an orchestra than it is to end up playing professional baseball.

Interestingly, the kids who dance are overall the best students. Economics probably. But the point is that that's not new. I'd guess that our daughter spent far more time and money at the opera than our son spent on baseball. Did she sing in college? Not much. Was she good enough to sing now?  Better than 99% of us.  Was she good enough to be a professional?  No.

I think you're assigning motives to most parents that aren't there. I also think you're so focused on baseball that you don't realize that most middle class kids are doing much the same thing in some activity. You think AAU basketball is different? Soccer?  They're worse. Tennis? Golf?  Scouts?  Oboe?  All the time, money, parental pressure, and burnout happen with those things. They also teach the kids discipline, confidence, and mental toughness.

And end of the day, I bet you couldn't find a single self-taught ballerina, or a half-dozen mlb players who only played little league.

[Mr. Happy]

I think it's more than you realize.  I see many, many parents who see their kid as being the best out there and this being a mechanism to stardom.  I suppose the former has always been true to some extent, especially among parents who really can't recognize talent or the lack thereof.

+1 My experience on the front lines as a pitching coach was that most of the parents who signed their own kids up for lessons were of the opinion that, with a little coaching, stardom was possible. To disabuse them, I used to have them watch the radar gun go off with a kid who could really throw, versus their own kid's readings. Unbelievably,, some didn't even get it then. You have to be born with a certain amount of talent.

[subnuclear]

What Neil said is what I was thinking of. I was sort of mentoring a kid who wants to study physics and it boggled my mind how many camps, programs, tutoring had had been involved with. The world is a very organized place these days.

[NeilT]

What Neil said is what I was thinking of. I was sort of mentoring a kid who wants to study physics and it boggled my mind how many camps, programs, tutoring had had been involved with. The world is a very organized place these days.

It has to be. Both parents work.

[HudsonHawk]

And end of the day, I bet you couldn't find a single self-taught ballerina, or a half-dozen mlb players who only played little league.

Which select team did Carlos Gomez play with?

[NeilT]

Which select team did Carlos Gomez play with?

He's Dominican. He started with an "academy" when he was 8.

[MusicMan]

Which select team did Carlos Gomez play with?

The same one as Marwin Gonzalez.


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[HudsonHawk]

The same one as Marwin Gonzalez.

Dominican AND Venezuelan.  That's a helluva travel team. 

[Nate in IA]

It has to be. Both parents work.

this.

[Noe]

We're active with Houston' magnet high school for the arts, HSPVA, and a couple of weekends ago had an interesting conversation about the dancers who get admitted. Apparently they have a hard time getting diversity, both racial and economic, in the dance program. To be a good enough dancer at 14, you've had years of dancing, including $1000s of dollars of lessons. Piano is much the same, except you've also spent $10 or $15,000 for a decent piano. Same for violin, where a bow can cost a couple of thousand and a good violin as much as a piano. And it's even harder to end up in an orchestra than it is to end up playing professional baseball.

Interestingly, the kids who dance are overall the best students. Economics probably. But the point is that that's not new. I'd guess that our daughter spent far more time and money at the opera than our son spent on baseball. Did she sing in college? Not much. Was she good enough to sing now?  Better than 99% of us.  Was she good enough to be a professional?  No.

I think you're assigning motives to most parents that aren't there. I also think you're so focused on baseball that you don't realize that most middle class kids are doing much the same thing in some activity. You think AAU basketball is different? Soccer?  They're worse. Tennis? Golf?  Scouts?  Oboe?  All the time, money, parental pressure, and burnout happen with those things. They also teach the kids discipline, confidence, and mental toughness.

And end of the day, I bet you couldn't find a single self-taught ballerina, or a half-dozen mlb players who only played little league.

I have no problems with parents who only want the best for their kids. But at what cost? Lost your own dignity, integrity, and sense of what is right and wrong? You and I would never condone someone robbing a bank to pay for tuition, so there are clearly lines that need to be drawn for making it viable for good, talented kids who are not privileged to get a chance. Not an unfair chance, but the same chance anyone could get. Getting by with a little help from friends, sorta speak. None of my nephews made a career out of baseball, it was only a means to an end... a college education. And yes, the ability to get noticed helped... but my sisters still had to pay some of the tuition and worked hard to do that. I have another nephew starting his college career this season as well, and my brother has to work hard in his own business to provide the tuition for his son to attend this school (not cheap).

Where I have serious problems with travel teams is when the whole thing becomes some sort of warp sense of professionalism and it involves money and high-stakes for kids. I hate the LLWS, I hate seeing kids get put on stage in shows like America's Got Talent, only to have that 12 year get her/his dreams shot down by a voting public that they are "not good enough to move on". What the hell are we doing as a society setting up children to be adults well before they need to be. Don't sell me that this sort of pressure makes them stronger... that's insanity plus 1000. And when you start to see downtown parades for children, press conferences with high profile people like the Reverend Jesse Jackson leading a charge of racism, and all of it is very adult situations put on children... then we need to all check ourselves.

Give the kids back their ball and bat and give them a sandlot and get the heck out of the way. They have plenty of time before they have to worry about being adults stuck in adult situations. No need to rush that in the name of making them mentally tougher.

[Noe]

The same one as Marwin Gonzalez.


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The same one as Willie Mays too.

[Noe]

Year round travel baseball ruins arms as well as neighborhood leagues. It is a sickness.

Spot on, Coach!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/stealing-home-how-travel-teams-are-eroding-community-baseball/2014/05/23/5af95d34-df6e-11e3-9743-bb9b59cde7b9_story.html

Excerpt:

Major League Baseball officials are looking at why higher numbers of budding pitching stars, such as Stephen Strasburg and Jose Fernandez, have suffered severe arm injuries in their early 20s. To a youth-coaching dad like myself, the answer is plain: overuse at young ages.

“I’m doing more and more operations on younger and younger arms every year,” said Timothy Kremchek, head physician for the Cincinnati Reds, who specializes in Tommy John arm surgeries. “These kids are being overused and abused. They are playing on too many different teams and throwing too many breaking pitches. It’s something we know about, but the abuse goes on. The parents are chasing some sort of dream. It makes me sick.”

Kremchek has been instrumental in instituting pitch limits and banning breaking pitches in youth baseball in Ohio. And teams affiliated with Little League Baseball have implemented pitch limits nationwide, which is a start. Still, as Keener notes, many Little League participants also play on travel teams outside their local leagues, while others are on full-time teams, making it impossible for governing bodies to police how much baseball a kid is playing each year.

[kevwun]

Smoltz even mentioned it in his HOF speech.  Kids shouldn't play a sport year round.

[Limey]

He's Dominican. He started with an "academy" when he was 8teen.

FIFY

[NeilT]

I have no problems with parents who only want the best for their kids. But at what cost? Lost your own dignity, integrity, and sense of what is right and wrong?

Red herring.  People with integrity and a sense of what's right and wrong aren't lost in any kind of youth sports.  The biggest jerks I ever ran into in kids sports were in Zipp's neighborhood club in north houston.  There are jerks everywhere.

You and I would never condone someone robbing a bank to pay for tuition, so there are clearly lines that need to be drawn for making it viable for good, talented kids who are not privileged to get a chance. Not an unfair chance, but the same chance anyone could get. Getting by with a little help from friends, sorta speak. None of my nephews made a career out of baseball, it was only a means to an end... a college education. And yes, the ability to get noticed helped... but my sisters still had to pay some of the tuition and worked hard to do that. I have another nephew starting his college career this season as well, and my brother has to work hard in his own business to provide the tuition for his son to attend this school (not cheap).

Where I have serious problems with travel teams is when the whole thing becomes some sort of warp sense of professionalism and it involves money and high-stakes for kids. I hate the LLWS, I hate seeing kids get put on stage in shows like America's Got Talent, only to have that 12 year get her/his dreams shot down by a voting public that they are "not good enough to move on". What the hell are we doing as a society setting up children to be adults well before they need to be. Don't sell me that this sort of pressure makes them stronger... that's insanity plus 1000. And when you start to see downtown parades for children, press conferences with high profile people like the Reverend Jesse Jackson leading a charge of racism, and all of it is very adult situations put on children... then we need to all check ourselves.

 

You think that's different from West Texas high school football programs on Friday night for the last 60 years?  You dislike some stuff, but that doesn't mean every travel team works at the worst, or that travel teams are more prone to that stuff than other youth activities.  At HSPVA, for instance, the dancers were weighed periodically to make sure the girls were keeping the weight down, because that's what the profession demanded.  It was always a joke that the female dancers all smoked to keep from eating.  I don't know if the program is still that way, but you're thinking there's something especially pressurized about baseball, and baseball parents.  There's not.

Give the kids back their ball and bat and give them a sandlot and get the heck out of the way. They have plenty of time before they have to worry about being adults stuck in adult situations. No need to rush that in the name of making them mentally tougher.

We had near our house a school yard with a ball field and a basketball court.  When my son was maybe 10 I suggested to another kid's mother that the kids go over and play ball.  She said not without an adult present.  This just does not exist in affluent urban communities any longer.

[NeilT]

FIFY

Dominican teenagers can be and are signed when they turn 16.  By the time they're 10, any decent prospect is likely to have been signed and is being trained full time by a manager who keeps kids for pretty much year-round training.  It's travel teams on steroids.  The manager trains them, and takes a percent of their ultimate compensation.  "Pelotero" is a fine documentary of the system.

[MikeyBoy]

Year round travel baseball ruins arms as well as neighborhood leagues. It is a sickness.

A lot of mis-informed broad brush strokes being painted here, but this point is spot on. This will be the first Fall my son is on a roster and only now because he has gold glove tryouts in May and starts high school next August, and I made it clear to the coach I don't want him pitching until at least late October. Usually, we put the glove down altogether for the Fall, but the next 18 months are critical for him making the HS team, so we will do hitting, conditioning and fielding drills in early Fall and play a few tourneys in late Fall.

My son has played "travel ball" (whatever the fuck that is) since he was 8 and I coached his teams from 4 till 12, this past season at 13 was my first in the stands. Most parents want the best for their child and they believe paying for coaches, uniforms, lessons, travel, etc, is the way to get Johnny the best. It's also a stature thing for some parents, especially at the younger levels, and as they get older it morphs into getting them ready for HS tryouts. With most high schools in populated areas in the South, the numbers of kids trying out is huge (50-90 at most Katy schools) and all of them have played some advanced level of baseball. So, this notion that little Johnny can roll out of the cornfield and make his HS team is at best mis-informed or simply just ignorant. The talent that seperates most of those 50-90 are razor thin, so things like fundamentals, technique, even swagger (whatever the fuck that is) factor into the HS coach's decision. Just like everything, there are parents/coaches that take all of this to the extreme, but those are the ones you read about and mostly are the exception.

Also, I know this is a baseball forum so hence it dominates the discussion, but youth baseball is mild when it comes to extremity as the norm compared to other youth sports like cheer, gymnastics, volleyball and tennis.

[HudsonHawk]

With most high schools in populated areas in the South, the numbers of kids trying out is huge (50-90 at most Katy schools) and all of them have played some advanced level of baseball. So, this notion that little Johnny can roll out of the cornfield and make his HS team is at best mis-informed or simply just ignorant. The talent that seperates most of those 50-90 are razor thin, so things like fundamentals, technique, even swagger (whatever the fuck that is) factor into the HS coach's decision. Just like everything, there are parents/coaches that take all of this to the extreme, but those are the ones you read about and mostly are the exception.

None of those kids have ever played "advanced" anything. Just because the team has matching equipment bags doesn't mean it's any higher level of play. 90% of the coaches in "select", "premier", "travel" what have you, are idiots, and 90% of the players aren't good enough to make the high school team, let alone anything "advanced". 

[Noe]

Also, I know this is a baseball forum so hence it dominates the discussion, but youth baseball is mild when it comes to extremity as the norm compared to other youth sports like cheer, gymnastics, volleyball and tennis.

Yeah, don't get me started on volleyball clubs. My niece has her daughter in a very expensive volleyball club in Houston. She is a good player, but I think what they are doing is excessive for a girl that age. And then when you think they travel to tournaments in State, then Regionals, then Nationals, then different affliated organization Regionals and Nationals... head spinning.

I have a friend here in Austin who thinks both his daughter and son have skills to become great volleyball players and go play in a college somewhere. I also have a friend who played in a major volleyball program in the Midwest (Ball State) and even made it to the final four in the NCAA tournament. The differences in attitude from both these two is very visible. My friend who is pushing hard on his two kids has a real blindspot for their abilities... meaning he can't see that hard practice and lots of volleyball time will only make them passable volleyball players (bench players on most club teams). But he pushes them hard, including putting them into play at Open Play Adult competitive nights at the local rec centers. Much to their dismay and of course the teams that gets stuck with those two really nice kids. His daughter has told me she just wants to be a writer and spend time reading books... not playing volleyball... but she doesn't know how to tell her dad to back off. The son is trying hard and I've spent some time teaching him some good techniques for passing and hitting. He likes that I don't scream at him like his dad nor do I make it difficult to understand like his current coaches.

My other friend who made it to the top of volleyball circles (and is still a highly regarded player in the USAV circles) told me that his dad (a well known volleyball coach in Indiana) never once pressured him to play volleyball. In fact, he said his dad wanted him to do other things and not spend so much time in the gym with him. But my friend wanted to play and had the skills (and height). Things really came naturally to him. He also practiced a lot because the gym was available to him almost 24/7. But there was never any great expectation heaped on him early on. His dad told him to enjoy being a kid... and he did. He later became a great volleyball player (and like I said, he still is). BTW - he is, by trade, a middle school teacher (English), and great with kids. He has taught in the Midwest and has National Boys and Girls clubs winners on his resume. His personality and the laid back nature of this guy really tells me he enjoys to teach, but doesn't enjoy to pressure kids.

[MikeyBoy]

90% of the coaches in "select", "premier", "travel" what have you, are idiots, and 90% of the players aren't good enough to make the high school team, let alone anything "advanced". 

Absolutely, but there are zero kids making the team that didn't play "select." And I used the term "advanced" because that is where the talent plays. If you play LL or Pony passed the age of 7/8, you are playing against kids that don't know which hand their glove goes on. There are obvious exceptions to this as leagues like Lamar and Pearland still field competitive leagues, but 100% of those kids play "select" when league play is over. These are just the times we live in, if you hold out on your morals, then your son will not play in high school.

[Bench]

Absolutely, but there are zero kids making the team that didn't play "select." And I used the term "advanced" because that is where the talent plays. If you play LL or Pony passed the age of 7/8, you are playing against kids that don't know which hand their glove goes on. There are obvious exceptions to this as leagues like Lamar and Pearland still field competitive leagues, but 100% of those kids play "select" when league play is over. These are just the times we live in, if you hold out on your morals, then your son will not play in high school.

If I merely stand on my genetics, my son isn't playing high school ball either way. 

[Mr. Happy]

These are just the times we live in, if you hold out on your morals, then your son will not play in high school.

You couldn't be more wrong. If a kid has it, the coaches in high school will want him no matter what.

[HudsonHawk]

I have a friend who used to keep me updated on his kid's tball stats. "Johnny's hitting .300..."  Really?  Wow, just imagine how good he'll be when they're trying to get him out.

[Nate in IA]

You couldn't be more wrong. If a kid has it, the coaches in high school will want him no matter what.

I think what he's saying is that the kid won't "have it" if he hasn't had the instruction he would get in the more advanced leagues.   Not an objective statement by any stretch of the imagination but it feels right to me.

[HudsonHawk]

I think what he's saying is that the kid won't "have it" if he hasn't had the instruction he would get in the more advanced leagues.   Not an objective statement by any stretch of the imagination but it feels right to me.

My issues with this whole mess are threefold:

1.  Most of these "instructors" are dumbasses more concerned with "showcasing" these kids than they are with teaching them who covers 3b on a bunt.

2.  This idea that money can buy them what they don't have: talent. If your kid doesn't "have it", no amount of lessons will change that. Parents refuse to accept that their kid is just an average baseball player.

3. It sacrifices time kids should be doing other things.

[Nate in IA]

My issues with this whole mess are threefold:

1.  Most of these "instructors" are dumbasses more concerned with "showcasing" these kids than they are with teaching them who covers 3b on a bunt.

2.  This idea that money can buy them what they don't have: talent. If your kid doesn't "have it", no amount of lessons will change that. Parents refuse to accept that their kid is just an average baseball player.

3. It sacrifices time kids should be doing other things.

I think your number 1 is the real problem.   And number 2 is true as well.    Without a doubt, those who make the big leagues have played a LOT of baseball in their lives, to the exclusion of a lot of other things in life.   Which makes your number 3 the real tough question to answer.   Does my kid have "it" or not?   How do I know whether or not a good coach could bring "it" out?   Would any of the other things he could be doing worthwhile?   

Some kids are easy to diagnose, while I suspect most of them are on the edge.

[Noe]

These are just the times we live in, if you hold out on your morals, then your son will not play in high school.

It's a rock and a hard place proposition in some ways. I'm glad you limit your son's throwing and have a good grasp on his love of the game so he can go on and play high school ball (and maybe from there). I think my sisters and now my brother had a similar attitude. Truth be told, our family is blessed with natural talent to play this game, even though neither of my own two boys play the game. They acquired my wife and my passion for books and learning so there is much to say about that avenue for them. But sticking to this conversation.... to play high school ball, there is a certain amount of training and practice a kid must go through and hopefully they understand this and the coach (who if it's you, then that is always a good thing) can help. A good coach can help if he/she is willing to listen to the kid and help them develop the skills that they are trying to master. Coach is really a misnomer for some of these select teams though, they practice but the objective is to win... so the kid better go and get help somewhere else (and parents will pay for that help too - from "personal" coaches). People who run teams that are select or elite don't really coach... they use kids and their abilities because the name of the game is "win". You don't win, you don't get parents to fork over money so that their kid can play for you... they will go to the next select team "coach".

At the lower levels of baseball, say little league and below, it probably should be more about teaching fundamentals and learning how to play the game and not necessarily about "winning". But it's too far gone now to change the charter of what little league has become, and that is about winning. When I coached, I told parents explicitly that I was in this to help kids learn four things: hit, run, catch, and throw. As far as I was concerned, if we didn't keep score, all the better to me. I taught kids how to stay down on a ball, how to align yourself correctly to throw a ball, how to throw with accuracy, how to throw from the outfield, how to receive a ball, how to play a position and learn to get in front of a ball, how to make outs while on defense, how to hit a ball, how to hit a ball with runners on base, all these things. So I always used in game situations to remind my kids what we had practiced and here was an opportunity to do it in a game situation. I would always have a parent come up to me and say "Hey coach, why did you tell Johnny to throw to first base with a runner on second... he could have thrown him out at third... so he didn't get the lead runner". I would smile and ask them politely to go sit down. I would then remind the kid he did great to get the out and don't worry about the run scoring later on, we'll be fine. Sure enough, we were one of the better teams in Y Ball, even surprising other coaches and teams with our ability to catch, throw, hit, and run. Because at this point, why do strategies to win. Instead I would do strategies to play this game and make just a little less difficult.

Simple, yet effective coaching. Never care about the scoreboard... it doesn't matter at this age. Nobody cares. But I do care if my kid wants to learn to get better at catch, throw, hit, and run. I can help them with that as much as they want. Was I retarding their ability to get into High School ball? I don't know, hopefully the right coach came along later to hone those skills into in-game strategy plus continue to increase their skill level while learning how to win games. But I say let that come later at the appropriate time. Let the kids be kids and when they're ready, everyone will know how to coach them up to prepare to play the game to win.

[NeilT]

My issues with this whole mess are threefold:

1.  Most of these "instructors" are dumbasses more concerned with "showcasing" these kids than they are with teaching them who covers 3b on a bunt.

2.  This idea that money can buy them what they don't have: talent. If your kid doesn't "have it", no amount of lessons will change that. Parents refuse to accept that their kid is just an average baseball player.

3. It sacrifices time kids should be doing other things.

There are a lot of crappy piano teachers, too, and no kids you're likely to run into are apt to have sufficient talent to be even moderately adept.  And no kid ever liked to practice whose last name wasn't Mozart.  That doesn't mean that playing the piano or playing baseball aren't their own reward.

[HudsonHawk]

There are a lot of crappy piano teachers, too, and no kids you're likely to run into are apt to have sufficient talent to be even moderately adept.  And no kid ever liked to practice whose last name wasn't Mozart.  That doesn't mean that playing the piano or playing baseball aren't their own reward.

I've never argued anything otherwise. But if you think sending your kid to that crappy piano teacher is his ticket to Carnegie Hall, you're delusional.

[NeilT]

I've never argued anything otherwise. But if you think sending your kid to that crappy piano teacher is his ticket to Carnegie Hall, you're delusional.

My kids ended up with a great piano teacher.  My son took 4 years and can't read music.  My daughter took 11 years and hasn't touched a piano since she turned 18.  They both hate the piano, though they both loved the teacher.

[NeilT]

If you didn't hear it this morning:  http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/09/04/432795481/how-likely-is-it-really-that-your-athletic-kid-will-turn-pro?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150904

The first 100 pages of the Andre Agassi autobiography may be one of the best sports books ever written.

[BudGirl]

I was going to share that also.

[HudsonHawk]

Great article.  I remind this to my friend, who insists that at least 8 or 10 kids (including his own) on his son's "select" team are sure-fire future Major Leaguers.  Maybe 2 or 3 kids on that team will make the high school team, and if you take 100 select teams just like his, maybe one of them is good enough to play in the Big Leagues.  Yet nearly every parent out there thinks they are making a legitimate investment in their retirement.

As for ignoring other children, my sister in law is the worst.  I once had to ask her if she still had the two other kids.  She didn't get it.  Not that my nephew isn't a good athlete, he is.  His father was a college basketball player and his uncle a pro baseball player.  He may actually end up being one of the ones who has a legit shot.  But you'd never know he had a brother and a sister. 

[JimR]

Great article.  I remind this to my friend, who insists that at least 8 or 10 kids (including his own) on his son's "select" team are sure-fire future Major Leaguers.  Maybe 2 or 3 kids on that team will make the high school team, and if you take 100 select teams just like his, maybe one of them is good enough to play in the Big Leagues.  Yet nearly every parent out there thinks they are making a legitimate investment in their retirement.

As for ignoring other children, my sister in law is the worst.  I once had to ask her if she still had the two other kids.  She didn't get it.  Not that my nephew isn't a good athlete, he is.  His father was a college basketball player and his uncle a pro baseball player.  He may actually end up being one of the ones who has a legit shot.  But you'd never know he had a brother and a sister.

the funnel effect is so true, Matt. I thought of that often watching the Express the first year with that great team. many of these parents are convinced sacrificing family life and who knows how many dollars certainly will lead to scholarships and MLB contacts. I think it is very sad. the ones like Belisle will make it even if they play in nothing but neighborhood leagues.

[JimR]

I think what he's saying is that the kid won't "have it" if he hasn't had the instruction he would get in the more advanced leagues.   Not an objective statement by any stretch of the imagination but it feels right to me.

this is absolute bullshit, and I made my living for a while coaching HS.

[JimR]

Absolutely, but there are zero kids making the team that didn't play "select." And I used the term "advanced" because that is where the talent plays. If you play LL or Pony passed the age of 7/8, you are playing against kids that don't know which hand their glove goes on. There are obvious exceptions to this as leagues like Lamar and Pearland still field competitive leagues, but 100% of those kids play "select" when league play is over. These are just the times we live in, if you hold out on your morals, then your son will not play in high school.

you could not be more wrong.

[NeilT]

Great article.  I remind this to my friend, who insists that at least 8 or 10 kids (including his own) on his son's "select" team are sure-fire future Major Leaguers.  Maybe 2 or 3 kids on that team will make the high school team, and if you take 100 select teams just like his, maybe one of them is good enough to play in the Big Leagues.  Yet nearly every parent out there thinks they are making a legitimate investment in their retirement.

As for ignoring other children, my sister in law is the worst.  I once had to ask her if she still had the two other kids.  She didn't get it.  Not that my nephew isn't a good athlete, he is.  His father was a college basketball player and his uncle a pro baseball player.  He may actually end up being one of the ones who has a legit shot.  But you'd never know he had a brother and a sister.

The thing I found most interesting about the article was this:  "According to a recent poll . . . 26 percent of U.S. parents whose children in high school play sports hope their child will become a professional athlete one day."  It was such a strange statement, because on one hand, if someone had asked me if I hoped either of my kids would be professional athletes, I'd have said sure, you bet.  If they'd asked if I'd expected my kid to be a professional athlete I'd have said not unless God gives my son a fast ball and my daughter a sport.  If the question was really "do you want your kid to be," it was a stupid question.  Maybe the question was more do you think your kid can be.

On the flip side are the anecdotal stories, which are the worst kind of parental stories.  A sports writer who thinks his 9 year old has it, the desperation of the poor to think of sports as a way out for their children, the focus of parents on a single child to the exclusion of other children:  it's the reason the Agassi biography is so good.  Agassi clearly hated his father and his sport for the psychological toll they took of him, and he gives a brutal rendition of why. 

I will always think of this as the Leopold Mozart problem: the overbearing parent who psychotically drives their child toward the parent's goal.  It's not new, it's not confined to baseball, and it's not all kids who take piano or all parents who make their kids take piano, or play baseball, or play tennis, or whatever.  But when it does happen it's very disturbing. And sometimes with a kid like Mozart or Agassi it achieves its goal.

[HudsonHawk]

The thing I found most interesting about the article was this:  "According to a recent poll . . . 26 percent of U.S. parents whose children in high school play sports hope their child will become a professional athlete one day."  It was such a strange statement, because on one hand, if someone had asked me if I hoped either of my kids would be professional athletes, I'd have said sure, you bet.  If they'd asked if I'd expected my kid to be a professional athlete I'd have said not unless God gives my son a fast ball and my daughter a sport.  If the question was really "do you want your kid to be," it was a stupid question.  Maybe the question was more do you think your kid can be.

On the flip side are the anecdotal stories, which are the worst kind of parental stories.  A sports writer who thinks his 9 year old has it, the desperation of the poor to think of sports as a way out for their children, the focus of parents on a single child to the exclusion of other children:  it's the reason the Agassi biography is so good.  Agassi clearly hated his father and his sport for the psychological toll they took of him, and he gives a brutal rendition of why. 

I will always think of this as the Leopold Mozart problem: the overbearing parent who psychotically drives their child toward the parent's goal.  It's not new, it's not confined to baseball, and it's not all kids who take piano or all parents who make their kids take piano, or play baseball, or play tennis, or whatever.  But when it does happen it's very disturbing. And sometimes with a kid like Mozart or Agassi it achieves its goal.

All good points.

On a side note, I wish now my parents would have made me play the piano.  My mother tried, but I just wasn't interested.  I mean, I always liked music and still do, but the only two things I really wanted to do with my free time was play baseball and fish.  It was pretty much one or the other.  I played other sports, football and basketball, when I was a kid, but none with the same interest as baseball and fishing.  I wish now I'd have become a better musician, if for no other reason than chasing girls. 

[Nate in IA]

this is absolute bullshit, and I made my living for a while coaching HS.

It's not absolute bullshit and you know it.  While you were coaching, you didn't see a difference between kids?  None whatsoever?

[Nate in IA]

This is one of the hardest things to do as a parent, find your child's gifts,  and we can find all sorts of examples of those who do it wrong.
That doesn't mean though that some do it right.   What we all hope for is that we find ourselves in the latter group.

My son is not a baseball player, but it turns out he is talented at swimming.   We have encouraged this talent and he has responded well to the encouragement.
He is still young (14) but we and his coaches can see he will have the body for the sport.  His biological father (who passed away when he was 6 months old) was
6'3" and he is well on his way to matching that height.   Swimming or Basketball and he has next to no hand-eye coordination.
Swimming is a very objective sport because it's timed.   You can know if you're making progress if your times are dropping and by making times for higher and
higher competitions.   

So, we spend a lot of time shuttling to swim practice (soon to be him driving himself thank goodness!) and attending swim meets, paying for club dues and such.
I don't imagine this is considerably different than those who encourage their kid by letting him play "select" ball.    He's only been swimming for the local
USA Swimming club for one year, but the gains he has made in that year have put him well ahead of his peers at the local high school where he is a freshman.
There is no doubt that if he chooses to swim for the high school, he will swim varsity.   

We all try to give our kids the best chance we can.    Whether that's club swimming or 'select' baseball or the equivalent basketball organization largely depends
on what the parent knows or can become reasonably well-acquainted with.    Of course, that's just the boys side of the universe.   The organizations for girls are
too numerous to mention from what I've seen from my niece.

[Jacksonian]

It's not absolute bullshit and you know it.  While you were coaching, you didn't see a difference between kids?  None whatsoever?

I coached a 14U rec team last spring.  There was a 13 year old in the league who is too poor to play select.  He is better than every select player his age I've ever seen even without the extra coaching time.  When they're special. They're special.

[MikeyBoy]

you could not be more wrong.

Ok.

[JimR]

It's not absolute bullshit and you know it.  While you were coaching, you didn't see a difference between kids?  None whatsoever?

I hope Mark weighs in on this. The neighborhood team kids did just as well and sometimes better in the clutch than the select kids. One of our select kids is in the big leagues, but playing select did not get him there. His arm did.

Your premise is total bullshit. Giving your kids the best chance to do what?

Travel baseball is ruining a kids arms to feed parents' egos. The guys who runs the team's laugh all the way to the bank.

[MRaup]

I coached a 14U rec team last spring.  There was a 13 year old in the league who is too poor to play select.  He is better than every select player his age I've ever seen even without the extra coaching time.  When they're special. They're special.

This. This. This.

Talent is talent. All the coaching in the world does not trump MLB talent.

Spending 2000 bucks to send your kid to baseball camp and travel teams isn't going to make your kid a big leaguer. Big league talent is what makes a kid a big leaguer.

If I had a dollar for every "elite travel" ball player I know that burnt out in high school or college, I could afford to pay for all the Prozac that Travel Baseball parents should be taking instead of cramming baseball down their kid's throat.

[Mr. Happy]

This. This. This.

Talent is talent. All the coaching in the world does not trump MLB talent.

Spending 2000 bucks to send your kid to baseball camp and travel teams isn't going to make your kid a big leaguer. Big league talent is what makes a kid a big leaguer.

If I had a dollar for every "elite travel" ball player I know that burnt out in high school or college, I could afford to pay for all the Prozac that Travel Baseball parents should be taking instead of cramming baseball down their kid's throat.

Coach's point about travel ball being big bidness is spot on. People selling snake oil in the form of going for the brass ring should be drawn and quartered. Mark's point about Prozac is spot on too. CPS should get called in to intervene in some of those situations.

[NeilT]

One thing to consider is that when you talk about "travel" teams, you're also talking about a whole range of things, from 6 year-olds going to "national" tournaments 1000s of miles from home to teams of Houston high school players playing in tournaments in Beaumont in the off-season. 

As one more aside, I grew up in ranch country, where we spent Saturdays and Sundays in the summer at the local 4H arena running barrels and poles and doing rescue races and stuff.  Every 10 year old ranch girl I knew wanted to be a barrel racer when she grew up.  I keep up with one friend from those days, who was a very good rider but who didn't make it as a pro.  Her granddaughter, who's 8, is involved with something called the national Junior Rodeo Cowboys Association, with 4 horses.  The clothes look like they cost a fortune, and the horses do. 

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Y'all have convinced me to finally quit blaming my parents for keeping me from becoming a pro ball player by not allowing me to play in any of those kinds of leagues--because of my "asthma" and because we "traveled as a family" too much.

[NeilT]

Y'all have convinced me to finally quit blaming my parents for keeping me from becoming a pro ball player by not allowing me to play in any of those kinds of leagues--because of my "asthma" and because we "traveled as a family" too much.

I'm still blaming my parents for all sorts of stuff, mostly involving the absence of trust funds.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm still blaming my parents for all sorts of stuff, mostly involving the absence of trust funds.

It's like when my wife asks me why we don't have this or don't have that, I have to tell her, "well, frankly your dowry sucked". 

[JimR]

Mark played on a team with a select team, major league ball player, another select team player who flamed out in junior college and a heck of a lot of neighborhood league players.

Listen to him on relative ability in playoff reaching the State Tornament.

Snake oil salesmen is spot on.

[Nate in IA]

I guess I have a problem with the "roll of the dice" philosophy which says that only those who are blessed with talent are going to do well and there's nothing you can do to help those who are not so blessed.

Interesting article in ESPN The Magazine that arrived in my mailbox today about one Ron Wolforth who absolutely flies in the face of that philosophy.   He preaches something completely different of course.   

Now, "select" baseball may or may not be useful.   It certainly is successful at extracting money from parents.   It may be enjoyable for the kids playing it. What you guys have said is that has no predictive ability as to who will make it as a MLB player.    I accept that.    But to say it's not useful is to me throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[HudsonHawk]

I guess I have a problem with the "roll of the dice" philosophy which says that only those who are blessed with talent are going to do well and there's nothing you can do to help those who are not so blessed.

No one has said that, or anything close to that.  We're saying you have to be self-aware.  That delusional parents are doing more damage to kids than they are helping them. 

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I guess I have a problem with the "roll of the dice" philosophy which says that only those who are blessed with talent are going to do well and there's nothing you can do to help those who are not so blessed.

Interesting article in ESPN The Magazine that arrived in my mailbox today about one Ron Wolforth who absolutely flies in the face of that philosophy.   He preaches something completely different of course.   

Now, "select" baseball may or may not be useful.   It certainly is successful at extracting money from parents.   It may be enjoyable for the kids playing it. What you guys have said is that has no predictive ability as to who will make it as a MLB player.    I accept that.    But to say it's not useful is to me throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Okay then, I do have my parents to blame.

[Nate in IA]

No one has said that, or anything close to that.  We're saying you have to be self-aware.  That delusional parents are doing more damage to kids than they are helping them.

I think that's what the Raups are saying.. but I agree with what you say here that some parents are delusional and trying to live their life through their kids.    Perhaps we are talking past each other though.   I'm with y'all on the delusional parents issue but I think that anyone can do well if they put enough time into it as Malcom Gladwell has said.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm with y'all on the delusional parents issue but I think that anyone can do well if they put enough time into it as Malcom Gladwell has said.

No they can't.  99.9% of the kids playing select ball simply do not have the talent to play professionally.  All the work in the world will not make up for that, not for something as rare and special as that.  You can't just "set your mind" on being a pro baseball player. 

[austro]

I'm with y'all on the delusional parents issue but I think that anyone can do well if they put enough time into it as Malcom Gladwell has said.

I disagree with this strongly. I was a good athlete in high school, good enough to play for a state finalist soccer team in Illinois and good enough to qualify for the state track and field meet in triple jump and long jump. I also had the pleasure (and it really was a pleasure) of having the best hurdler in the country on my team (his state records were broken two years later by Greg Foster, but that's how good he was). I was also a hurdler, but I could have practiced for eight hours a day for 30 years, and I wouldn't have been half the hurdler that guy was.

World-class talent (and that's what major-league baseball players are) is special, and when you see it up close and personal, you recognize just how far outside of your usual experience it is.

[HudsonHawk]

World-class talent (and that's what major-league baseball players are) is special, and when you see it up close and personal, you recognize just how far outside of your usual experience it is.

This is a good point.  One reason parents don't recognize their kid doesn't have special talent is because they've never seen one that does.  They think "my kid is one of the best hitters on his select team, he must have Major Leauge talent".  No.

[JimR]

I think that's what the Raups are saying.. but I agree with what you say here that some parents are delusional and trying to live their life through their kids.    Perhaps we are talking past each other though.   I'm with y'all on the delusional parents issue but I think that anyone can do well if they put enough time into it as Malcom Gladwell has said.

Your last sentence is so, so wrong. HH said it better than I can, but you cannot become great if you do not have great talent. You can improve for sure, but you may not even make a HS team because that kid who only played neighborhood ball is better than you.

The Kool-aid has you. All the time and money in the world will not do it. Most select players will never put on a college uniform, much less a pro one.

[NeilT]

Your last sentence is so, so wrong. HH said it better than I can, but you cannot become great if you do not have great talent. You can improve for sure, but you may not even make a HS team because that kid who only played neighborhood ball is better than you.

The Kool-aid has you. All the time and money in the world will not do it. Most select players will never put on a college uniform, much less a pro one.

Fuck this.  No one disagrees with that. 

[JimR]

Fuck this.  No one disagrees with that.

Guys who run select teams sure as hell do. They convince parents select ball is the only way to college scholarships and pro contracts.

[Mr. Happy]

Guys who run select teams sure as hell do. They convince parents select ball is the only way to college scholarships and pro contracts.

You are so right. I ran across lots of them who claimed to have "the secret" and to have the contacts too. So full of shit.

[Duman]

For several years now, my son has played travel ball.  He got better coaching in travel ball than he did on the middle or high school teams so far.  He is playing high school ball with nine of the guys he has played travel ball with through the years.  He plays against another 8 who go to other high schools. There has been turn over.  The better kids have been recruited to travel with more elite teams.  Very few have burned out.  Something was done well. 

People have high expectations for this group of boys.  The first two years of these boys all lettered as freshmen.  The third year are freshman this year.  They played up.  I think most of them will see the varsity roster at sometime this year.

Are there kids on the HS team who never played travel ball.  Yes, are they getting very much playing time?  Only a few.  Most of the boys from his travel team play at least one other sport.  Some played more than one their freshman year and decided to focus on one after they saw how much time was required to play a sport in HS. 

My son wants to go to a good SEC school to prepare for law school.  He doesn't have D-1 talent.  He has fond memories of travel ball.  We tried to keep it in perspective.  We have taken time off for breaks over the years even when the team kept playing.  This past summer was the first time it was really frustrating - daddy ball reared it's head again at the 16U level.

Not one travel coach every talked to my son about using supplements (legal or illegal) - his HS coach already has - (legal)
Not one travel coach encouraged him to cheat in a game, his middle school coach, who is now his HS coach already has. 

One kid on the travel team who turned 17 right after the deadline and will be  a SR this year, committed to play baseball at a local D-II college.  He was clearly one of the best athletes on the team.  He was playing because another kids day was paying his way.  He missed every practice during the winter/spring (2x a month with college coaches) because he had to work to help support his family.  I am not sure he gets noticed if this other dad doesn't pay his way.  The coaches had no clue of the kid before he played in this travel team and they got to see him play against pretty good talent.  I have mixed feelings because the school he committed to is a private school and I am concerned about him getting in the deep debt and am also concerned about his academic ability.  If it was my son, he would be going to JuCo which is free in TN. 

Maybe we were lucky.  But our experience has been more good than bad. 

[Andyzipp]

According to the WSJ, In 2013, an estimated 5.3 million kids played youth baseball.  Per USSSA, 1.3 of those kids play on select or travel teams.

There are fewer than 5,000 players in affiliated pro baseball at any given time (if my pre-coffee math works out.) There are 750 MLB players at any given time (prior to Sept 1 call-ups).

Statistically, no one who plays youth baseball goes on to play pro baseball.

The probability that select ball may lead you to a spot on a high school roster is probably better than if you weren't playing select ball, although interestingly, USSSA has refused to publish any facts that confirm any relationship.  But high school players have less than half a percent chance of ever being part of affiliated pro baseball.

[austro]

The probability that select ball may lead you to a spot on a high school roster is probably better than if you weren't playing select ball, although interestingly, USSSA has refused to publish any facts that confirm any relationship.  But high school players have less than half a percent chance of ever being part of affiliated pro baseball.

Americans aren't very good at using probability and statistics. Or logic, for that matter.

[Duman]

Americans aren't very good at using probability and statistics. Or logic, for that matter.

[hijacks thread] That is why lotteries make so much money [/hijacks thread]

[Noe]

One day we will hear of select team bootcamp training in the US. It's in the horizon for sure. It will involve all sorts of training skills and classroom sessions to make each and every candidate...errr... kid better, stronger, faster than any other.  Including the Japanese!

BTW - the Little League of America just changed the date eligibility for being in Little League so true 12 year olds participate in said leagues. They claim they're not doing it to phase out homerun hitting, already shaving, low voice kids. They just feel 12 year olds should be playing baseball with and against other 12 year olds. Hmmmm... okay.

[Jacksonian]

One day we will hear of select team bootcamp training in the US. It's in the horizon for sure. It will involve all sorts of training skills and classroom sessions to make each and every candidate...errr... kid better, stronger, faster than any other.  Including the Japanese!

BTW - the Little League of America just changed the date eligibility for being in Little League so true 12 year olds participate in said leagues. They claim they're not doing it to phase out homerun hitting, already shaving, low voice kids. They just feel 12 year olds should be playing baseball with and against other 12 year olds. Hmmmm... okay.

Actually it won't against international teams.  The international cutoff is the calendar year which is what they had voted to do last year.  Little League has a lot of competition for kids among other organizations, USSSA, mostly.  So listening to parents who wanted Bubba born in June to play baseball with his classmate born in November is what they chose to do.  Smart marketing to me.

[Noe]

Actually it won't against international teams.  The international cutoff is the calendar year which is what they had voted to do last year.  Little League has a lot of competition for kids among other organizations, USSSA, mostly.  So listening to parents who wanted Bubba born in June to play baseball with his classmate born in November is what they chose to do.  Smart marketing to me.

What I meant for International is that the competitive nature in adults will take over and much like International Gymnastics and Tennis, you're going to start seeing 24/7 Baseball Academies crop up and more stories about kids being trained only to compete on an International level. Because that is where they're headed with this little world series nowadays. IMHO of course.

[NeilT]

What I meant for International is that the competitive nature in adults will take over and much like International Gymnastics and Tennis, you're going to start seeing 24/7 Baseball Academies crop up and more stories about kids being trained only to compete on an International level. Because that is where they're headed with this little world series nowadays. IMHO of course.

We can be just like the Dominican.  Isn't that what Bradey Aiken ended going to?

[Bench]

We can be just like the Dominican.  Isn't that what Bradey Aiken ended going to?

There is a Dominican convent in Westbury comprised entirely of Vietnamese nuns. 

[Jacksonian]

What I meant for International is that the competitive nature in adults will take over and much like International Gymnastics and Tennis, you're going to start seeing 24/7 Baseball Academies crop up and more stories about kids being trained only to compete on an International level. Because that is where they're headed with this little world series nowadays. IMHO of course.

I was only addressing your second paragraph.

[Noe]

I was only addressing your second paragraph.

Which was NOT about International play. It was about little league. Oh nevermind.

[Duman]

It doesn't matter what the date is,  there is still going to be a year's worth of difference between a kid with a good birthday and a kid with a bad birthday. 

One of the kids on my son's LL all star team that went to state as 11/12, was born on April 30th at 11:30 PM.  He was 30 minutes away from being the oldest kid in the age group instead of the youngest.  I had another kid on the team who was born on April 29th.  They were unlucky.  It's just the way birthday driven cutoffs work

[HudsonHawk]

It doesn't matter what the date is,  there is still going to be a year's worth of difference between a kid with a good birthday and a kid with a bad birthday. 

One of the kids on my son's LL all star team that went to state as 11/12, was born on April 30th at 11:30 PM.  He was 30 minutes away from being the oldest kid in the age group instead of the youngest.  I had another kid on the team who was born on April 29th.  They were unlucky.  It's just the way birthday driven cutoffs work

I know how it is.  For years the cutoff was August 1st.  I was born July 28th.  I was always the youngest kid in my age group, and always played a year older than I actually was. 

And don't let them fool anyone...the reason for the age cutoff date change is to get the 13 1/2 yeard olds out of the 12-year old division and LLWS tournament.  When I was the same age as most of those kids in the LLWS, I was in my second year of playing on a full sized 60/90 field.  Hell, 6 months later I was playing in High School

[das]

It doesn't matter what the date is,  there is still going to be a year's worth of difference between a kid with a good birthday and a kid with a bad birthday. 

One of the kids on my son's LL all star team that went to state as 11/12, was born on April 30th at 11:30 PM.  He was 30 minutes away from being the oldest kid in the age group instead of the youngest.  I had another kid on the team who was born on April 29th.  They were unlucky.  It's just the way birthday driven cutoffs work

Yup. Spans all sports. I was a 16 year old HS senior running (cross country) against 17 & 18 year old boys (with the occasional 19 year old sprinkled in).  My coaches at my D1 school the following year were actively looking for ways to classify my normal training aches and pains as medical quals to redshirt me 2 years so I could "catch up".

[Duman]

Now it is common to hear about parents holding their son back a year if they have a summer birthday. So their kid won't be behind their peers athletically.

I have a buddy who's son has a June birthday, he started him on time.  Socially and academically, he is right there with his peers but athletically, he is a year behind or in some cases of kids who were held back - 2 years.  His dad regularly second guesses himself about it. 

[NeilT]

Now it is common to hear about parents holding their son back a year if they have a summer birthday. So their kid won't be behind their peers athletically.

I have a buddy who's son has a June birthday, he started him on time.  Socially and academically, he is right there with his peers but athletically, he is a year behind or in some cases of kids who were held back - 2 years.  His dad regularly second guesses himself about it.

I was advanced a year, and it was a horrible mistake. I was so glad my son was a few days over the line.

[Jacksonian]

Now it is common to hear about parents holding their son back a year if they have a summer birthday. So their kid won't be behind their peers athletically.

I have a buddy who's son has a June birthday, he started him on time.  Socially and academically, he is right there with his peers but athletically, he is a year behind or in some cases of kids who were held back - 2 years.  His dad regularly second guesses himself about it.

My son's a June birthday.  We kept him on time.  I have no regrets.  I knew if he had it athletically it would matter what his age was.

[HudsonHawk]

When the was in school, it was common to have kids repeat the 8th grade so they'd be more advance athletically.  So here I was a 15-year old sophomore in high school playing against guys who were 19, almost 20.

[Astro1959]

I spent many many summer weekends with both of my boys playing travel ball. One in baseball began travel ball at 10, the other in soccer at 8.  Neither boy ever had an iota of a chance of becoming a pro. That was never in either parents playbook. By the time they were both sophomores in HS, neither boy had a chance to play at a P5 or G5 school (NAIA, sure).

Both boys played on state championship high school teams. Both contributed. Neither starred.

So why did we play 60 games a year for 8-10 years with two kids who were clearly not gifted athletes?

One, because I believe that idle time for teenage boys produces nothing of value.
Because the kids that they associated with were all dedicated to both sport and academic achievement ... my experience was that parents of travel kids pushed their boys to excel in both areas.
Three, because my boys and I have lifetime memories of goofy road trips, bad motels, greasy food ... and all the other peripheral stuff that just can't be duplicated outside of these 20 road trips each summer.
Four, because my boys learned that to compete against the best, one had to prepare the best, pay attention to detail, outwork your competition. I think a valuable lesson for life.
Five, because my boys learned that it takes more than stars to win games. My kids were the ultimate team players. Glue for the team, on the bench or in the field.
Six, because my boys learned how not to behave as parents by watching the stupidity in the stands and through try-outs.
Seven, because my boys learned that you might not always like or agree with your employer (coach), but you have to respect them.
Eight, because my boys learned that their father and mother loved them to distraction. We didn't say 'we will do anything for you'. We did anything for them. I'm incredibly proud of the time I invested in my kids. Lost friends. Lost my tennis and golf games. Found the love of my life ... being a dad.
Nine, because there is nothing wrong with dreaming big, even if the ultimate result is never quite reached.
Ten, despite the parental insanity, the overreaching antics, the cussing and swearing of 'Christian' parents, coaching tirades, bench time, loss of positions, loss of status ... my two boys emerged from travel and high school sports as two wonderful young men.

I don't credit sport, or travel sport, for all of that which I listed above. But I would never discourage a young dad from following my steps. I might tell him to insist on a pitch count and a number of days rest between sports ... but other than that ... play ball.

[JimR]

all these lessons can be learned at a local field without sacrificing family for travel sports.

here is THE major thing wrong with your treatise: "parents of travel kids pushed their boys to excel in both areas."

my parents did not push me in any direction in any way. they had expectations for me, but they allowed me to be a kid and to find my path.

[HudsonHawk]

One, because I believe that idle time for teenage boys produces nothing of value.

This is a false dilemma.  It's not a choice between "baseball all day every day" and "sitting on your ass doing nothing".  That's kind of the point we're making.  All baseball all the time is not allowing kids to do other things and become more well-rounded kids, not to mention better overall athletes. 

[das]

My son's a June birthday.  We kept him on time.  I have no regrets.  I knew if he had it athletically it would matter what his age was.

This typically is correct but that one year (or more) makes a big difference for some.  As a 13 year old freshman, I was at a distinct disadvantage physically, athletically, mentally and emotionally.  It did not get any better by the time I was a 17 year old freshman in college.  It was not until I was in college a couple of years that the differences started to wash out.  Every kid is different but parents would do well to watch their kids carefully and look for the signs that younger kids are being over matched by their peers.  It can have life-long negative effects.  I am specifically talking about maturity across the board, not just athletics. 

[Knoxbanedoodle]

Mark played on a team with a select team, major league ball player, another select team player who flamed out in junior college and a heck of a lot of neighborhood league players.

Listen to him on relative ability in playoff reaching the State Tornament.

Snake oil salesmen is spot on.

He also played on a team with me, and I was the best of the bunch. Every day I rue the fact that my parents didn't push me harder...

[JimR]

He also played on a team with me, and I was the best of the bunch. Every day I rue the fact that my parents didn't push me harder...

They denied you your rightful place in the HOF.

[MRaup]

They denied you your rightful place in the HOF.

I'm a huge fan of the House of FrenchFries as well.

[Dark Star]

It's like when my wife asks me why we don't have this or don't have that, I have to tell her, "well, frankly your dowry sucked".

And you are still walking around, with all your appendages and stuff more-or-less intact. Your wife must have a really well-developed sense of humor.

Of course, she agreed to marry you, so ...

[HudsonHawk]

Of course, she agreed to marry you, so ...

Yeah, there all sorts of things about her I've never been able to figure out.

[VirtualBob]

Just out of curiosity, why is this thread pinned at the top?