Author Topic: DH (Read 17459 times)

roadrunner · « **on:** April 27, 2015, 09:14:39 am »

With Wainwright and Scherzer both getting hurt while batting, there seem to be some strong pro-DH discussions going on. Calcaterra is one of the better national writers in baseball and I think brings up well positioned arguments for the DH. Of course we all long for the NL days with the Astros, but I have to say that I have flipped my opinion on the DH since the Astros have played AL ball. I generally agree with almost all of Calcaterra's points, so I don't feel the need to highlight any in particular.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/27/pitchers-batting-is-dumb-and-the-dh-should-be-universal/

jbm · « **Reply #1 on:** April 27, 2015, 09:46:26 am »

I don't have a strong opinion on the DH, but I stopped reading after a few paragraphs as I was hoping for something a little more persuasive. The argument was: pitchers can get hurt while batting, but since they can get hurt in other ways, ignore that point. By the way pitchers suck at hitting, so.........

roadrunner · « **Reply #2 on:** April 27, 2015, 09:59:35 am »

Quote from: jbm on April 27, 2015, 09:46:26 am

I don't have a strong opinion on the DH, but I stopped reading after a few paragraphs as I was hoping for something a little more persuasive. The argument was: pitchers can get hurt while batting, but since they can get hurt in other ways, ignore that point. By the way pitchers suck at hitting, so.........

The first sentence of the 4th paragraph is: "Don’t misunderstand me. I am not so naive, sensationalistic and alarmist to say that the NL rule is dumb simply because Adam Wainwright and Max Scherzer got hurt. No, that’s not what I’m saying at all."

He then discusses responses to anti-DH arguments.

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #3 on:** April 27, 2015, 10:20:16 am »

The last 3 years have seen me go from utter disdain towards the DH, to firmly in the I don't give a shit. Not watching pitchers try to bunt hasn't really ruined my enjoyment of the game.

Mr. Happy · « **Reply #4 on:** April 27, 2015, 10:27:21 am »

I always appreciated it, even though it interferes with my usual purist mantra. I think that it is inevitable and probably will get done soon, so they just as soon implement it sooner rather than later.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #5 on:** April 27, 2015, 12:16:48 pm »

The only beef I have with the DH, beyond a sort of purist attitude, is the loss of certain strategy elements that come with pitchers batting.

ETA: Since it's unlikely to be rolled back in the AL, I would prefer to see it adopted in the NL.

Fredia · « **Reply #6 on:** April 27, 2015, 12:21:09 pm »

speaking of nl astros pitchers get their chance tonight

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #7 on:** April 27, 2015, 12:30:45 pm »

Gattis finally has some success, now he is gonna have to sit for 2/3 days in San Diego....

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #8 on:** April 27, 2015, 12:43:02 pm »

Quote from: Navin R Johnson on April 27, 2015, 12:30:45 pm

Gattis finally has some success, now he is gonna have to sit for 2/3 days in San Diego....

He can play the field.

Mr. Happy · « **Reply #9 on:** April 27, 2015, 01:01:18 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 27, 2015, 12:43:02 pm

He can play the field.

I predict that you'll see him in LF in this series.

David in Jackson · « **Reply #10 on:** April 27, 2015, 01:12:36 pm »

The thing that has surprised me is: what happened to effort to get Gattis to play 1b? I like Marwin as a utility guy, but he's hardly the bat to occupy a 1b slot when Carter is struggling, etc. If Gattis is no long catching (and it appears he is not), why is LF preferable to 1b? Or, a related question, who is a better LF, Gattis or Carter?

MusicMan · « **Reply #11 on:** April 27, 2015, 01:29:13 pm »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 27, 2015, 09:14:39 am

Calcaterra is one of the better national writers in baseball

Did I miss some plague that killed most of the other national baseball writers?

GreatBagwellsBeard · « **Reply #12 on:** April 27, 2015, 01:43:31 pm »

Quote from: David in Jackson on April 27, 2015, 01:12:36 pm

The thing that has surprised me is: what happened to effort to get Gattis to play 1b? I like Marwin as a utility guy, but he's hardly the bat to occupy a 1b slot when Carter is struggling, etc. If Gattis is no long catching (and it appears he is not), why is LF preferable to 1b? Or, a related question, who is a better LF, Gattis or Carter?

At least in ST, the explanation was that Gattis was still rehabbing an injury, so they were focusing on him as DH first, LF second, and everything else (1B, C) not at all. Since he appears to be healthy now, I wouldn't be surprised if he was taking grounders, or catching some in the bullpen to get back up to speed.

mrpink · « **Reply #13 on:** April 27, 2015, 02:03:40 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Happy on April 27, 2015, 01:01:18 pm

I predict that you'll see him in LF in this series.

Hinch did the same. I've got no problem with him in LF as long as Marisnick is patrolling center. Of course, I haven't seen him play it yet.

Knoxbanedoodle · « **Reply #14 on:** April 27, 2015, 02:08:08 pm »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 27, 2015, 09:14:39 am

With Wainwright and Scherzer both getting hurt while batting, there seem to be some strong pro-DH discussions going on. Calcaterra is one of the better national writers in baseball and I think brings up well positioned arguments for the DH. Of course we all long for the NL days with the Astros, but I have to say that I have flipped my opinion on the DH since the Astros have played AL ball. I generally agree with almost all of Calcaterra's points, so I don't feel the need to highlight any in particular.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/27/pitchers-batting-is-dumb-and-the-dh-should-be-universal/

Didn't read the article--will probably echo points, but...I've definitely come around on the DH. I think the change is owed in equal parts to the Astros move and to the increasing horribleness of NL pitchers in the batters box. Evidently, back when the DH was instituted, pitchers as a whole hit 30 points higher than they do now. But whereas everyone has now prioritized specialization, no one ever prioritized developing quality hitting pitchers. It seems like that might have been a pretty enormous advantage to a NL org, and I'm a little curious as to why no one ever bothered trying. I guess the risk v reward numbers weren't good enough, but remember what a difference Mike Hampton routinely made in his own starts?

All that said, it's just not very entertaining to watch someone do something they aren't any good at, and the tradeoff of managerial calculation with the DH vs. without is arguably a wash.

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #15 on:** April 27, 2015, 02:08:46 pm »

I think Carter gets the start at 1st for 2 of the games, and Gattis gets the start in 1.

doyce7 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 27, 2015, 02:14:29 pm »

I would start gattis once in left once at 1st and pitch hit him the other night. Play Carter 2 of 3 at 1st and pinch hit the 3rd. Have rasmus play the other two games in left.

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #17 on:** April 27, 2015, 02:47:59 pm »

Quote from: doyce7 on April 27, 2015, 02:14:29 pm

I would start gattis once in left once at 1st and pitch hit him the other night. Play Carter 2 of 3 at 1st and pinch hit the 3rd. Have rasmus play the other two games in left.

Playing Gattis in LF when Keuchel is pitching would make since, considering how few fly balls DK allows.

doyce7 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 27, 2015, 03:01:27 pm »

Quote from: Navin R Johnson on April 27, 2015, 02:47:59 pm

Playing Gattis in LF when Keuchel is pitching would make since, considering how few fly balls DK allows.

Agreed. Once(if) keuchel comes out you go to rasmus in left

Jacksonian · « **Reply #19 on:** April 27, 2015, 03:09:05 pm »

Quote from: Navin R Johnson on April 27, 2015, 02:47:59 pm

Playing Gattis in LF when Keuchel is pitching would make since, considering how few fly balls DK allows.

Rasmus is hot right now. I wouldn't take him out.

juliogotay · « **Reply #20 on:** April 27, 2015, 03:34:39 pm »

Quote from: Jacksonian on April 27, 2015, 03:09:05 pm

Rasmus is hot right now. I wouldn't take him out.

We facing any southpaws in SD?

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #21 on:** April 27, 2015, 03:47:15 pm »

Quote from: juliogotay on April 27, 2015, 03:34:39 pm

We facing any southpaws in SD?

All 3 of SD's starters are righties.

Reuben · « **Reply #22 on:** April 27, 2015, 05:43:37 pm »

I fucking hate the DH.

I really fucking hate it, and I'm kind of shocked at the shrug-of-shoulders response in this thread.

A game that uses a DH is not a baseball game. An intrinsic, fundamental aspect of a baseball game is the difficulty in finding and developing players who can do both the offensive side and the defensive side well. Did the Astros get to have Mike Lamb bat in Adam Everett's place every time his turn in the lineup came around? Hell no. But that is the beauty of players like AE. Even if they aren't Honus Wagner or Willie Mays, we appreciate their excellent defense, and it just makes it all the sweeter on the rare occasions that they unexpectedly come through with a big hit (ie. Ausmus in Game 5 of the 2005 NLDS).

The same goes for pitchers. Yes, many of them are awful hitters. Some of them suck at bunting, too, quite frankly. But I loved it when someone like Wandy, or Clemens, or Lima would come up with a hit in a key 2-out situation. I'll bet 90% of MLB pitchers batted 3rd or 4th on their HS team. It's not like these guys are weaklings who don't even know how to hold a bat. I don't care that millionaire pitchers sometimes injure themselves while batting or running the bases. Guys also injure themselves playing with their dog, or their kids, or, uh... washing their truck. It happens.

If no pitchers ever have to bat again, what's next? Will the Red Sox get to put their speedy backup CF in to run for Big Papi when he walks in the 1st inning, and again when he walks in the 5th? The same arguments Calcaterra is using can be applied in a lot of ways. "No one likes to see Big Papi run the bases." That's right, he sucks at running the bases. Another guy would be more entertaining to watch. But it wouldn't be baseball. Colby Rasmus sucks at hitting lefties. Can't we put a RH batter in to face the lefty reliever in the 6th, then put him back in against the righty in the 8th? Colby might even get hurt trying to bat against the lefty! So unfair.

It's hard enough to stomach the Astros being forced to play a game that's not really baseball to me. Seeing it completely take over both leagues would really, really suck, and make me sad.

juliogotay · « **Reply #23 on:** April 27, 2015, 05:58:22 pm »

Quote from: Reuben on April 27, 2015, 05:43:37 pm

I fucking hate the DH.

I really fucking hate it, and I'm kind of shocked at the shrug-of-shoulders response in this thread.

A game that uses a DH is not a baseball game. An intrinsic, fundamental aspect of a baseball game is the difficulty in finding and developing players who can do both the offensive side and the defensive side well. Did the Astros get to have Mike Lamb bat in Adam Everett's place every time his turn in the lineup came around? Hell no. But that is the beauty of players like AE. Even if they aren't Honus Wagner or Willie Mays, we appreciate their excellent defense, and it just makes it all the sweeter on the rare occasions that they unexpectedly come through with a big hit (ie. Ausmus in Game 5 of the 2005 NLDS).

The same goes for pitchers. Yes, many of them are awful hitters. Some of them suck at bunting, too, quite frankly. But I loved it when someone like Wandy, or Clemens, or Lima would come up with a hit in a key 2-out situation. I'll bet 90% of MLB pitchers batted 3rd or 4th on their HS team. It's not like these guys are weaklings who don't even know how to hold a bat. I don't care that millionaire pitchers sometimes injure themselves while batting or running the bases. Guys also injure themselves playing with their dog, or their kids, or, uh... washing their truck. It happens.

If no pitchers ever have to bat again, what's next? Will the Red Sox get to put their speedy backup CF in to run for Big Papi when he walks in the 1st inning, and again when he walks in the 5th? The same arguments Calcaterra is using can be applied in a lot of ways. "No one likes to see Big Papi run the bases." That's right, he sucks at running the bases. Another guy would be more entertaining to watch. But it wouldn't be baseball. Colby Rasmus sucks at hitting lefties. Can't we put a RH batter in to face the lefty reliever in the 6th, then put him back in against the righty in the 8th? Colby might even get hurt trying to bat against the lefty! So unfair.

It's hard enough to stomach the Astros being forced to play a game that's not really baseball to me. Seeing it completely take over both leagues would really, really suck, and make me sad.

Good post Reuben. Just when I was starting to get sucked in you pulled me back out.

NeilT · « **Reply #24 on:** April 27, 2015, 05:59:18 pm »

Quote from: Reuben on April 27, 2015, 05:43:37 pm

I fucking hate the DH.

I really fucking hate it, and I'm kind of shocked at the shrug-of-shoulders response in this thread.

A game that uses a DH is not a baseball game. An intrinsic, fundamental aspect of a baseball game is the difficulty in finding and developing players who can do both the offensive side and the defensive side well. Did the Astros get to have Mike Lamb bat in Adam Everett's place every time his turn in the lineup came around? Hell no. But that is the beauty of players like AE. Even if they aren't Honus Wagner or Willie Mays, we appreciate their excellent defense, and it just makes it all the sweeter on the rare occasions that they unexpectedly come through with a big hit (ie. Ausmus in Game 5 of the 2005 NLDS).

The same goes for pitchers. Yes, many of them are awful hitters. Some of them suck at bunting, too, quite frankly. But I loved it when someone like Wandy, or Clemens, or Lima would come up with a hit in a key 2-out situation. I'll bet 90% of MLB pitchers batted 3rd or 4th on their HS team. It's not like these guys are weaklings who don't even know how to hold a bat. I don't care that millionaire pitchers sometimes injure themselves while batting or running the bases. Guys also injure themselves playing with their dog, or their kids, or, uh... washing their truck. It happens.

If no pitchers ever have to bat again, what's next? Will the Red Sox get to put their speedy backup CF in to run for Big Papi when he walks in the 1st inning, and again when he walks in the 5th? The same arguments Calcaterra is using can be applied in a lot of ways. "No one likes to see Big Papi run the bases." That's right, he sucks at running the bases. Another guy would be more entertaining to watch. But it wouldn't be baseball. Colby Rasmus sucks at hitting lefties. Can't we put a RH batter in to face the lefty reliever in the 6th, then put him back in against the righty in the 8th? Colby might even get hurt trying to bat against the lefty! So unfair.

It's hard enough to stomach the Astros being forced to play a game that's not really baseball to me. Seeing it completely take over both leagues would really, really suck, and make me sad.

I hate the DH, but I want all those bastards with NL teams to have to suffer the way I suffer. I figure that once there's a DH in both leagues, and MLB expands by two teams, everything gets readjusted with more reasonable geographic realignment.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #25 on:** April 27, 2015, 06:11:59 pm »

The problem with the DH is that it's never going away and the players are the ones seeing to it. I certainly feel the way Reuben does, I think most do, but I'm also not one to tilt at windmills. If we have to suffer the indignity of this AL move and all that comes with it in the interest of "balance" then all of baseball needs to even up and take on the DH.

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #26 on:** April 27, 2015, 06:33:56 pm »

Spite seems as reasonable reason as any to be pro-DH.

Fredia · « **Reply #27 on:** April 27, 2015, 06:48:29 pm »

compare the dh to toll roads. once the tax is on it will never go away. once the dh started it too will be here forever

Nate Colbert · « **Reply #28 on:** April 27, 2015, 06:55:20 pm »

Quote from: NeilT on April 27, 2015, 05:59:18 pm

I hate the DH, but I want all those bastards with NL teams to have to suffer the way I suffer. I figure that once there's a DH in both leagues, and MLB expands by two teams, everything gets readjusted with more reasonable geographic realignment.

Expand to Montreal and Charlotte and voila:

AL Northeast
Blue Jays
Montreal
Red Sox
Yankees

AL Central
Indians
Tigers
Twins
White Sox

AL Southwest
Astros
Cardinals (yeah, fuck the BFiBs)
Rangers
Royals

AL West
Athletics
Giants
Mariners
Rockies

NL East
Mets
Nationals
Orioles
Phillies

NL Southeast
Braves
Charlotte
Marlins
Rays

NL Central
Brewers
Cubs
Pirates
Reds

NL West
Angels
D-Backs
Dodgers
Padres

NeilT · « **Reply #29 on:** April 27, 2015, 06:57:41 pm »

Quote from: Nate Colbert on April 27, 2015, 06:55:20 pm

Expand to Montreal and Charlotte and voila:

AL Northeast
Blue Jays
Montreal
Red Sox
Yankees

AL Central
Indians
Tigers
Twins
White Sox

AL Southwest
Astros
Cardinals (yeah, fuck the BFiBs)
Rangers
Royals

AL West
Athletics
Giants
Mariners
Rockies

NL East
Mets
Nationals
Orioles
Phillies

NL Southeast
Braves
Charlotte
Marlins
Rays

NL Central
Brewers
Cubs
Pirates
Reds

NL West
Angels
D-Backs
Dodgers
Padres

I've assumed it'll be San Antonio and Portland.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #30 on:** April 27, 2015, 07:02:38 pm »

Any realignment that doesn't include the Astros moving back to the NL isn't worth discussing.

NeilT · « **Reply #31 on:** April 27, 2015, 07:07:57 pm »

Quote from: Ty in Tampa on April 27, 2015, 07:02:38 pm

Any realignment that doesn't include the Astros moving back to the NL isn't worth discussing.

If they actually did add two teams and realigned, I suspect the realignment would make NL/AL history irrelevant.

Nate Colbert · « **Reply #32 on:** April 27, 2015, 07:09:17 pm »

Quote from: Ty in Tampa on April 27, 2015, 07:02:38 pm

Any realignment that doesn't include the Astros moving back to the NL isn't worth discussing.

I'm an NL guy but if there's a universal DH (which is the context of the realignment discussion) I don't know why it would really matter.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #33 on:** April 27, 2015, 07:21:54 pm »

Quote from: Nate Colbert on April 27, 2015, 07:09:17 pm

I'm an NL guy but if there's a universal DH (which is the context of the realignment discussion) I don't know why it would really matter.

True, but a wrong has to be righted from my wounded fan's perspective.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NeilT · « **Reply #34 on:** April 27, 2015, 07:22:17 pm »

Here's my attempt, w/ San Antonio and Portland

AL Northeast
Blue Jays
Red Sox
Yankees
Tigers

AL Central
Indians
Twins
White Sox
Royals

AL NL Southwest
Astros
Rangers
San Antonio
Rockies

AL West
Athletics
Portland
Mariners
Angels

NL East
Mets
Nationals
Phillies
Pirates

NL ALSoutheast
Braves
Orioles
Marlins
Rays

NL Central
Brewers
Cubs
Cardinals
Reds

NL West
Giants
D-Backs
Dodgers
Padres

There you go Ty.

juliogotay · « **Reply #35 on:** April 27, 2015, 07:34:49 pm »

Quote from: Ty in Tampa on April 27, 2015, 06:11:59 pm

The problem with the DH is that it's never going away and the players are the ones seeing to it. I certainly feel the way Reuben does, I think most do, but I'm also not one to tilt at windmills. If we have to suffer the indignity of this AL move and all that comes with it in the interest of "balance" then all of baseball needs to even up and take on the DH.

But would you feel the same way IF the Astros were still in the NL?

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #36 on:** April 27, 2015, 07:39:57 pm »

Quote from: juliogotay on April 27, 2015, 07:34:49 pm

But would you feel the same way IF the Astros were still in the NL?

Hard to say but probably not. I will admit my attitude shifted with the team's shift. It's how I cope.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WakePhil · « **Reply #37 on:** April 27, 2015, 07:55:39 pm »

Love good rants. That was a good rant.

I have to say that I was surprised to find myself in the shrugging shoulders camp, but I am. I didn't miss the strategy element in the ninth inning of the A's game on Friday when Grossman (in the ninth spot) came up with a man on and two outs. I was happy that Keuchel got to pitch the ninth. In the NL, he almost certainly would have been yanked for Grossman (or the like) and ended his outing. Sure it took some risk and gambling out of the moment, but I got to see a professional hitter hit in a high leverage situation and I got to see our best pitcher throw another inning.

Pitcher's hitting ability declines every single year. Pitchers as hitters are comically inept these days. I think its fair to question whether the novelty of a pitcher hitting and the strategy of when to replace them is worth the injury risk.

I would not have said any of this if we were still in the NL, but we have the unique experience that most fans don't. We got to watch the same team in both environments and compare our levels of enjoyment. I surprisingly didn't care as much as I thought I would. Would I like to go back to the NL? Absolutely yes, and for these reasons in order of importance:

1) Central time games
2) History (including the consistency of opponents, rivalries, etc.)
3) Pitchers hitting

jbm · « **Reply #38 on:** April 27, 2015, 08:07:05 pm »

While we are adding teams, how about Havana? The Cubans seem to really love the sport and it's so close. Would be a good addition, IMO.

Reuben · « **Reply #39 on:** April 27, 2015, 08:20:40 pm »

Quote from: WakePhil on April 27, 2015, 07:55:39 pm

...
Pitcher's hitting ability declines every single year. Pitchers as hitters are comically inept these days. I think its fair to question whether the novelty of a pitcher hitting and the strategy of when to replace them is worth the injury risk.

...

This is certainly in part due to the increase in free agent movement and trades; pitchers coming over from the AL (Colon, F. Liriano, etc.) have proven to be awful, with few exceptions (Greinke). What I'm wondering is, when did pitchers stop batting in the minors? Was that a fairly recent change, or has it been that way since the 70's? I should know, but I don't.

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #40 on:** April 27, 2015, 08:26:12 pm »

I haven't followed baseball expansion talks, is this a real possibility? And is San Antonio really in the running for an expansion team?

NeilT · « **Reply #41 on:** April 27, 2015, 08:37:20 pm »

Quote from: Reuben on April 27, 2015, 08:20:40 pm

This is certainly in part due to the increase in free agent movement and trades; pitchers coming over from the AL (Colon, F. Liriano, etc.) have proven to be awful, with few exceptions (Greinke). What I'm wondering is, when did pitchers stop batting in the minors? Was that a fairly recent change, or has it been that way since the 70's? I should know, but I don't.

Of course they don't bat in college, and in Texas at least they don't bat in high school.

hostros7 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 27, 2015, 08:53:04 pm »

Portland? Is the MLB's strategy to hope that all the hipsters will be avid baseball fans for the sake of irony?

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juliogotay · « **Reply #43 on:** April 27, 2015, 08:53:44 pm »

Quote from: NeilT on April 27, 2015, 08:37:20 pm

Of course they don't bat in college, and in Texas at least they don't bat in high school.

I did not know they did not bat in HS in Texas. HS pitchers are often some of the hitters on the team as they are playing SS or something on other days.

Nate Colbert · « **Reply #44 on:** April 27, 2015, 09:01:54 pm »

Quote from: Navin R Johnson on April 27, 2015, 08:26:12 pm

I haven't followed baseball expansion talks, is this a real possibility? And is San Antonio really in the running for an expansion team?

Nobody expects anything to happen in the near term. Manfred has been asked about it several times, mostly tamping down speculation but also saying:

Quote

There has not been a lot of talk about expansion. In terms of internationalizing the game, North America, in terms of sustained international activity, is someplace we need to focus. Canada, Mexico, if we were going to think about it, those would be the kinds of places that I would be interested in.

Because of the crowds drawn for exhibition games the last few years, Montreal is probably the flavor of the moment for speculation.

JimR · « **Reply #45 on:** April 27, 2015, 09:04:08 pm »

Quote from: NeilT on April 27, 2015, 08:37:20 pm

Of course they don't bat in college, and in Texas at least they don't bat in high school.

Pitchers bat in Texas if they are good hitters. There is a DH, but he does not have to bat for the pitcher.

chuck · « **Reply #46 on:** April 27, 2015, 10:18:25 pm »

Quote from: jbm on April 27, 2015, 08:07:05 pm

While we are adding teams, how about Havana? The Cubans seem to really love the sport and it's so close. Would be a good addition, IMO.

All the jerseys, tickets and Aramark hotdogs they'll buy with Cuban pesos won't do anyone any good. But I do agree that an expansion into Latin America would make sense. Although they already have a team in Miami.

Col. Sphinx Drummond · « **Reply #47 on:** April 27, 2015, 10:27:20 pm »

I would like the linguistic symmetry of having a teams in Montreal and Monterrey.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #48 on:** April 28, 2015, 12:57:46 am »

Quote from: Reuben on April 27, 2015, 08:20:40 pm

What I'm wondering is, when did pitchers stop batting in the minors? Was that a fairly recent change, or has it been that way since the 70's? I should know, but I don't.

The DH was adopted in the minors in 1969, several years prior to the AL. It's usage was inconsistent, mostly depending on whether the club was an AL or NL affiliate, as organizations wanted their teams to mimic their Major League rules. It's been standard in the minors since the mid-80s. Not sure when the NCAA and high schools adopted it, but it was in place when I played 30+ years ago.

subnuclear · « **Reply #49 on:** April 28, 2015, 05:16:07 am »

I'm strongly against 4 team divisions.

Reuben · « **Reply #50 on:** April 28, 2015, 06:24:33 am »

Having a DH is the same thing as taking your pitcher out of the game for a pinch-hitter, then being allowed to put him back in. Multiple times.

If people want to watch a sport where offense and defense use different players, there's football. In baseball, you're supposed to do everything, and let the team deal with your weaknesses as best they can.

juliogotay · « **Reply #51 on:** April 28, 2015, 07:11:58 am »

Quote from: chuck on April 27, 2015, 10:18:25 pm

All the jerseys, tickets and Aramark hotdogs they'll buy with Cuban pesos won't do anyone any good. But I do agree that an expansion into Latin America would make sense. Although they already have a team in Miami.

That oddly does not draw that well right? Unless they are turning out for the new stadium.

roadrunner · « **Reply #52 on:** April 28, 2015, 07:24:00 am »

Quote from: Reuben on April 28, 2015, 06:24:33 am

Having a DH is the same thing as taking your pitcher out of the game for a pinch-hitter, then being allowed to put him back in. Multiple times.

If people want to watch a sport where offense and defense use different players, there's football. In baseball, you're supposed to do everything, and let the team deal with your weaknesses as best they can.

I think you're relying way too much on the slippery slope argument. Everyone agrees and understands that pitchers are completely different than position players. The DH is already in place in half of the league and it's not like there is some progressive movement to implement ghost runners for fat guys.

roadrunner · « **Reply #53 on:** April 28, 2015, 07:26:05 am »

Quote from: subnuclear on April 28, 2015, 05:16:07 am

I'm strongly against 4 team divisions.

Agreed. I am also against expansion. I love the idea of Tampa moving to Montreal, though.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #54 on:** April 28, 2015, 08:07:49 am »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 28, 2015, 07:26:05 am

Agreed. I am also against expansion. I love the idea of Tampa moving to Montreal, though.

Why?

roadrunner · « **Reply #55 on:** April 28, 2015, 08:27:12 am »

Quote from: Ty in Tampa on April 28, 2015, 08:07:49 am

Why?

1. I think the current setup is more fair, competitive, and interesting than 4-team divisions, which is what I assume 32 teams would lead to. It becomes more likely that a sub .500 team makes the playoffs, which is the worst side effect of the American infatuation with "playoffs".

2. I don't like the idea of forcing baseball into markets they may not necessarily want or support them. Use the few markets untapped by MLB to leverage existing situations like Tampa and Oakland into creating better environments there (or relocate them). I don't think San Antonio would support baseball and there's no point in expanding just to expand.

3. Talent dilution.

jbm · « **Reply #56 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:02:56 am »

I hope it is not San Antonio. I mean, it's close to Austin and all, but I can't generate the same loathing for SA that I can for Dallas.

juliogotay · « **Reply #57 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:04:17 am »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 28, 2015, 08:27:12 am

1. I think the current setup is more fair, competitive, and interesting than 4-team divisions, which is what I assume 32 teams would lead to. It becomes more likely that a sub .500 team makes the playoffs, which is the worst side effect of the American infatuation with "playoffs".

2. I don't like the idea of forcing baseball into markets they may not necessarily want or support them. Use the few markets untapped by MLB to leverage existing situations like Tampa and Oakland into creating better environments there (or relocate them). I don't think San Antonio would support baseball and there's no point in expanding just to expand.

3. Talent dilution.

They did not support the Expos.

juliogotay · « **Reply #58 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:06:02 am »

Quote from: jbm on April 28, 2015, 09:02:56 am

I hope it is not San Antonio. I mean, it's close to Austin and all, but I can't generate the same loathing for SA that I can for Dallas.

SA would really cut into the Astros fan base.

roadrunner · « **Reply #59 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:18:22 am »

Quote from: juliogotay on April 28, 2015, 09:04:17 am

They did not support the Expos.

That was a period of terrible ownership. That's like someone in 2001 claiming Houston can't support a football team because of the last few years of the Oilers at the Dome. Montreal seems like the only slam dunk market right now.

Knoxbanedoodle · « **Reply #60 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:24:53 am »

Quote from: juliogotay on April 28, 2015, 09:04:17 am

They did not support the Expos.

I heard on a BA podcast recently that the Expos drew 3 million fans before the Yankees ever did.

WakePhil · « **Reply #61 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:33:31 am »

Quote from: Reuben on April 28, 2015, 06:24:33 am

In baseball, you're supposed to do everything, and let the team deal with your weaknesses as best they can.

Not exactly. Non-pitchers are not expected to pitch. In fact, teams would never dream of putting their best hitters in for a pitcher for fear of them hurting themselves. The hitters are untrained and may not have pitched since high school. Asking them to pitch at the highest possible level after years of neglecting that ability? Foolishly risky. Reserved only for when there are no options left or for the novelty in an otherwise meaningless game, and never with the best players.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #62 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:52:56 am »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 28, 2015, 08:27:12 am

2. I don't like the idea of forcing baseball into markets they may not necessarily want or support them. Use the few markets untapped by MLB to leverage existing situations like Tampa and Oakland into creating better environments there (or relocate them). I don't think San Antonio would support baseball and there's no point in expanding just to expand.

Leveraging for better conditions is not supporting the move to Montreal. You did not say why you "love the idea of Tampa moving to Montreal."

roadrunner · « **Reply #63 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:19:24 am »

Quote from: Ty in Tampa on April 28, 2015, 09:52:56 am

Leveraging for better conditions is not supporting the move to Montreal. You did not say why you "love the idea of Tampa moving to Montreal."

Tampa is a shitty situation because the stadium lease runs until like 2030. If the lease ran out in the near future then it would be interesting to see how the city of Tampa would be acting.

Regarding my personal preference, I just think Montreal is a more interesting and exciting market than Tampa (no offense?) with just as much if not more potential to be successful.

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #64 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:37:28 am »

I'm in Tampa 6 or 7 times a year for work. They need to get the stadium out of St Pete ASAP.

A developer bought up all the land in Channelside and is redeveloping over there (just outside of downtown Tampa). That would be an infinitely better location with much better access to lots more people. It would also be much easier for people in Orlando to attend.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #65 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:38:06 am »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 28, 2015, 10:19:24 am

Tampa is a shitty situation because the stadium lease runs until like 2030. If the lease ran out in the near future then it would be interesting to see how the city of Tampa would be acting.

Regarding my personal preference, I just think Montreal is a more interesting and exciting market than Tampa (no offense?) with just as much if not more potential to be successful.

You do know the stadium is in St. Petersburg, right? The city of Tampa has nothing to do with the stadium lease. The city of St. Petersburg holds the lease and is refusing to let the Rays negotiate with anyone outside of St. Petersburg until the lease is up. Tampa would love to host the Rays and the Rays would love to move to Tampa, which is a more central location in the Tampa Bay area. Until the city of St. Petersburg realizes that the entire area will lose the Rays if they make them ride out the lease, it will remain a "shitty situation." That attitude is changing. The new St. Petersburg mayor is for allowing the Rays to look around and most here think they should be able to. I believe the situation will be resolved within the next year or so.

Regardless of how interesting and exciting Montreal is, they have already lost a team.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #66 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:40:35 am »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 28, 2015, 10:19:24 am

Tampa is a shitty situation because the stadium lease runs until like 2030. If the lease ran out in the near future then it would be interesting to see how the city of Tampa would be acting.

Regarding my personal preference, I just think Montreal is a more interesting and exciting market than Tampa (no offense?) with just as much if not more potential to be successful.

The problem with the stadium is that it's in St. Petersburg, and the city of St. Petersburg is putting the kybosh on any new stadium, apparently out of spite. They had an insanely sweet deal on the table a few years ago for a new one, but refused to allowed a referendum on it because of all sorts of bullshit about it not being within the city limits proper, and changing of the land use, even though it was previously a minor league ballpark.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #67 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:42:38 am »

Quote from: Navin R Johnson on April 28, 2015, 10:37:28 am

A developer bought up all the land in Channelside and is redeveloping over there (just outside of downtown Tampa). That would be an infinitely better location with much better access to lots more people. It would also be much easier for people in Orlando to attend.

That's Jeff Vinik, the owner of the Lightning. No one can say anything about anything regarding the Rays moving to Tampa but everyone's belief is that that's where they will end up.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #68 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:48:54 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 28, 2015, 10:40:35 am

The problem with the stadium is that it's in St. Petersburg, and the city of St. Petersburg is putting the kybosh on any new stadium, apparently out of spite. They had an insanely sweet deal on the table a few years ago for a new one, but refused to allowed a referendum on it because of all sorts of bullshit about it not being within the city limits proper, and changing of the land use, even though it was previously a minor league ballpark.

The stadium was in downtown St. Pete...on the waterfront...but the plans were to squeeze it into a pretty small place and actually build out into the water. The lack of a good plan for parking, etc. shot that deal down.

The spite flows over to the Rays as well. They are refusing to negotiate with anyone in St. Petersburg until the city allows them to negotiate with Tampa as well. That's where the impasse is.

Bench · « **Reply #69 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:50:40 am »

Quote from: Ty in Tampa on April 27, 2015, 06:11:59 pm

The problem with the DH is that it's never going away and the players are the ones seeing to it. I certainly feel the way Reuben does, I think most do, but I'm also not one to tilt at windmills. If we have to suffer the indignity of this AL move and all that comes with it in the interest of "balance" then all of baseball needs to even up and take on the DH.

I was stunned to learn upon the Astros move to the AL that the DH is the norm throughout the world and in amateur levels and that the National League is virtually the only league where the pitchers have to hit. I agree with Reuben that players should play the game in all facets, but if every other baseball league doesn't do it that way is not having a DH really "baseball?" And now I really want a reuben sandwich.

roadrunner · « **Reply #70 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:56:52 am »

Quote from: Ty in Tampa on April 28, 2015, 10:48:54 am

The stadium was in downtown St. Pete...on the waterfront...but the plans were to squeeze it into a pretty small place and actually build out into the water. The lack of a good plan for parking, etc. shot that deal down.

The spite flows over to the Rays as well. They are refusing to negotiate with anyone in St. Petersburg until the city allows them to negotiate with Tampa as well. That's where the impasse is.

I have read about the location issues and realize that it's not just that the fans don't care about their team, and I hope I didn't come off trashing Tampa in any way. I would love to see a new stadium in Tampa/St Pete/Orlando and see how that metro area responds. I also would love to see a team in Montreal and Tampa is the first organization that comes to mind. That's really the simple reasoning of why I would love to see Tampa move to Montreal.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #71 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:57:59 am »

Quote from: Bench on April 28, 2015, 10:50:40 am

I agree with Reuben that players should play the game in all facets, but if every other baseball league doesn't do it that way is not having a DH really "baseball?" And now I really want a reuben sandwich.

But as has been pointed out, players *don't* have to play the game in all facets. Only very select, uniquiely trained and qualified ones have to pitch. By your logic, it would be like volleyball where every player rotates to pitch an inning throughout the game. Being a pitcher has long been recognized as a unique and special skill.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #72 on:** April 28, 2015, 10:59:15 am »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 28, 2015, 10:56:52 am

I would love to see a new stadium in Tampa/St Pete/Orlando and see how that metro area responds.

You also realize that Orlando is not anywhere near the Tampa/St. Pete metro area?

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #73 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:08:24 am »

Quote from: roadrunner on April 28, 2015, 10:56:52 am

I have read about the location issues and realize that it's not just that the fans don't care about their team, and I hope I didn't come off trashing Tampa in any way. I would love to see a new stadium in Tampa/St Pete/Orlando and see how that metro area responds. I also would love to see a team in Montreal and Tampa is the first organization that comes to mind. That's really the simple reasoning of why I would love to see Tampa move to Montreal.

I get it. Virtually everyone sees sparse crowds at Rays games and thinks they should move. There are so many factors leading to this including the stadium, it's location and the fact that every Rays game...home and away...is broadcast in HD locally on basic cable. They consistently post among the highest local ratings in baseball which in turn, gives them the revenue they need to run the club. They are not losing money.

Bench · « **Reply #74 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:22:31 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 28, 2015, 10:57:59 am

But as has been pointed out, players *don't* have to play the game in all facets. Only very select, uniquiely trained and qualified ones have to pitch. By your logic, it would be like volleyball where every player rotates to pitch an inning throughout the game. Being a pitcher has long been recognized as a unique and special skill.

The difference is in playing both the defensive and offensive sides of the games, not every position in the field or spot in the lineup. Shortstops don't have to water the grass.

Reuben · « **Reply #75 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:29:58 am »

Quote from: Bench on April 28, 2015, 11:22:31 am

The difference is in playing both the defensive and offensive sides of the games, not every position in the field or spot in the lineup. Shortstops don't have to water the grass.

Thank you. You correctly surmised that I did not mean "everything" literally.

Also, Eat Me!

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #76 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:30:27 am »

Quote from: Bench on April 28, 2015, 11:22:31 am

The difference is in playing both the defensive and offensive sides of the games, not every position in the field or spot in the lineup. Shortstops don't have to water the grass.

Pitching has long been recognized as its own "facet". Ever hear of the term "pitching and defense"?

Reuben · « **Reply #77 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:38:14 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 28, 2015, 11:30:27 am

Pitching has long been recognized as its own "facet". Ever hear of the term "pitching and defense"?

Baseball is a game, unlike basketball, hockey, etc. with clearly defined periods where one team is on offense and another team is on defense. Which side does the pitcher stand out there with?

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #78 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:39:21 am »

Quote from: Ty in Tampa on April 28, 2015, 11:08:24 am

I get it. Virtually everyone sees sparse crowds at Rays games and thinks they should move. There are so many factors leading to this including the stadium, it's location

If you live in Tampa and want to go to a weekday game, good luck. For those not familiar, imagine if the Astros played West of Katy and the only way there was a couple of 15 mile long bridges.

I went to a Lightening game 4 weeks ago when I was in town, the crowd was solid. If they built a baseball stadium down there, it would change the whole dynamic.

But if you look at MLB, really the only team with a really bad stadium situation, that isn't a really established franchise is Tampa. There isn't anyone else I could even remotely see leaving their current location. The A's maybe, but they'd just move somewhere else in the bay area.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #79 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:45:06 am »

Quote from: Reuben on April 28, 2015, 11:38:14 am

Baseball is a game, unlike basketball, hockey, etc. with clearly defined periods where one team is on offense and another team is on defense. Which side does the pitcher stand out there with?

In football, is a placekicker an offensive player, a defensive player, or is there another generally accpeted category called "special teams"?

WakePhil · « **Reply #80 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:59:32 am »

Quote from: Reuben on April 28, 2015, 11:38:14 am

Baseball is a game, unlike basketball, hockey, etc. with clearly defined periods where one team is on offense and another team is on defense. Which side does the pitcher stand out there with?

I believe this may be what you are looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket

Fredia · « **Reply #81 on:** April 28, 2015, 12:03:21 pm »

i still miss games in the dome. sad to see the old lady these days

BudGirl · « **Reply #82 on:** April 28, 2015, 12:12:15 pm »

Quote from: Fredia on April 28, 2015, 12:03:21 pm

i still miss games in the dome. sad to see the old lady these days

Sometimes you need to let things die. The dome is one.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #83 on:** April 28, 2015, 12:18:58 pm »

Quote from: Navin R Johnson on April 28, 2015, 11:39:21 am

If you live in Tampa and want to go to a weekday game, good luck. For those not familiar, imagine if the Astros played West of Katy and the only way there was a couple of 15 mile long bridges.

This is the best way I've seen the scenario presented. Plus. no public transport between the two cities.

moriartp · « **Reply #84 on:** April 28, 2015, 12:57:16 pm »

Quote from: Navin R Johnson on April 28, 2015, 11:39:21 am

If you live in Tampa and want to go to a weekday game, good luck. For those not familiar, imagine if the Astros played West of Katy and the only way there was a couple of 15 mile long bridges.

Never realized it was that bad. It's a miracle they sell as many tickets as they do.

Mr. Happy · « **Reply #85 on:** April 28, 2015, 01:27:45 pm »

Like it or not, the DH has won the debate down to the high school level. Now, given that the minors utilize the DH, the only time a pitcher ever has to hit is not until they get to the Show and play in the NL. That doesn't seem right to me. It's time for the DH to become the singular rule.

Ty in Tampa · « **Reply #86 on:** April 28, 2015, 01:39:39 pm »

Quote from: moriartp on April 28, 2015, 12:57:16 pm

Never realized it was that bad. It's a miracle they sell as many tickets as they do.

Think of the middle to upper middle class worker whose office is in or near downtown Tampa and whose home is in north Tampa. They would get off work then drive 30-40 minutes in rush hour traffic to downtown St. Pete over one of the 2 bridges that span Tampa Bay. Enjoy the game. Then drive 40-50 minutes through downtown Tampa to get to their home in north Tampa. Replace Tampa with Clearwater in this scenario and you have almost 70% of the population of Tampa Bay.

Or you could head home and watch the game on TV.

Knoxbanedoodle · « **Reply #87 on:** April 28, 2015, 02:29:13 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Happy on April 28, 2015, 01:27:45 pm

Like it or not, the DH has won the debate down to the high school level. Now, given that the minors utilize the DH, the only time a pitcher ever has to hit is not until they get to the Show and play in the NL. That doesn't seem right to me. It's time for the DH to become the singular rule.

Just to pick a nit: I believe pitchers hit in AA and above when two NL affiliates are playing.

Reuben · « **Reply #88 on:** April 28, 2015, 02:33:13 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Happy on April 28, 2015, 01:27:45 pm

Like it or not, the DH has won the debate down to the high school level. Now, given that the minors utilize the DH, the only time a pitcher ever has to hit is not until they get to the Show and play in the NL. That doesn't seem right to me. It's time for the DH to become the singular rule.

As Jim said, most good pitchers in HS also play another position, and get plenty of at-bats. Many of them do that in college, too. Even Carlos Rodon DH'ed a lot for NC State right through his Junior year.

I realize I'm not making a popular argument here, and I realize the DH is here to stay; more DHs = more $ for players and owners, thus it is here to stay. But I think it fucking sucks.

Knoxbanedoodle · « **Reply #89 on:** April 28, 2015, 02:36:29 pm »

I think it's odd that NL clubs don't emphasize their pitchers' hitting more. Seems like it would contribute to a distinct home field advantage in interleague play.

Navin R Johnson · « **Reply #90 on:** April 28, 2015, 02:37:08 pm »

Quote from: Reuben on April 28, 2015, 02:33:13 pm

DHs = more $ for players and owners, thus it is here to stay. But I think it fucking sucks.

It sure equates to more money for the players, not sure how the owners directly profit.

But $ isn't the only reason for the DH, because that has no impact on the HS or college level.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #91 on:** April 28, 2015, 03:14:10 pm »

Quote from: Knoxbanedoodle on April 28, 2015, 02:36:29 pm

I think it's odd that NL clubs don't emphasize their pitchers' hitting more. Seems like it would contribute to a distinct home field advantage in interleague play.

Because they emphasize pitcher's pitching. It's not something that simply happens. It's a full-time job. To act as if pitcher is simply another defensive position is just being silly.

JimR · « **Reply #92 on:** April 28, 2015, 03:16:58 pm »

Quote from: Reuben on April 28, 2015, 02:33:13 pm

As Jim said, most good pitchers in HS also play another position, and get plenty of at-bats. Many of them do that in college, too. Even Carlos Rodon DH'ed a lot for NC State right through his Junior year.

I realize I'm not making a popular argument here, and I realize the DH is here to stay; more DHs = more $ for players and owners, thus it is here to stay. But I think it fucking sucks.

Belisle is a good example of this. He was a P/3B and batted 5th. I never DHed for him. Our DH hit for the weakest hitting position player.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #93 on:** April 28, 2015, 03:23:13 pm »

Quote from: JimR on April 28, 2015, 03:16:58 pm

Belisle is a good example of this. He was a P/3B and batted 5th. I never DHed for him. Our DH hit for the weakest hitting position player.

If you can do this in high school, it's unique to high school. In professional ball, you cannot DH for a position player, only the pitcher.

When I was in school, some pitchers played other positions, some only pitched. A lot of the really good star pitchers at that level are the best all around players on the team. Josh Hamilton was this, and he was the best high school player I personally ever saw play.

JimR · « **Reply #94 on:** April 28, 2015, 03:30:27 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 28, 2015, 03:23:13 pm

If you can do this in high school, it's unique to high school. In professional ball, you cannot DH for a position player, only the pitcher.

When I was in school, some pitchers played other positions, some only pitched. A lot of the really good star pitchers at that level are the best all around players on the team. Josh Hamilton was this, and he was the best high school player I personally ever saw play.

Texas HS rule.

Don Baylor was mine, and David Clyde was the best pitcher.

Reuben · « **Reply #95 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:54:31 pm »

Hey, let's ask that pitcher who blew out his Achilles while batting:

Quote

"I just think baseball is a National League game. I wish both leagues would convert to National League baseball. ...

"Baseball, the strategy and the game itself in the National League is just a better game, in my opinion. I hope that people don't look at this -- which I know they already are --- and think that we should switch to a DH now. Baseball is a beautiful game. I just hope it doesn't change too much."

Wainwright went on to point out how his injury had little to do with him batting.
"It's really not much different that exploding off the mound to get a ground ball or covering first or fielding a bunt," he said. "It could have happened at any time. Listening to the doctors, there is no reason it happened. It wasn't like it was an incredibly weak tendon. It could have happened doing anything -- I could have been carrying my daughter up the stairs and it happened. So you outlaw carrying your daughter up the stairs? Or outlaw covering first? Outlaw fielding a bunt? It was a fluke thing, and baseball needs to stay just the way it is."

link

Thank you, Mr. Wainwright.

Noe · « **Reply #96 on:** April 28, 2015, 11:57:02 pm »

Friend of mine blew out his Achilles stepping on to the court for a volleyball tournament. I literally mean "stepping on to the court". All he did was turn right and bam, down he went like someone shot him. Weird injury but it actually happened.

Waldo · « **Reply #97 on:** April 29, 2015, 12:20:11 am »

Roberto Hernandez made a pretty good case for the DH on the basepaths tonight.

Reuben · « **Reply #98 on:** April 29, 2015, 07:26:47 am »

Quote from: Waldo on April 29, 2015, 12:20:11 am

Roberto Hernandez made a pretty good case for the DH on the basepaths tonight.

Hinch presumably told him to take it easy out there, and he took it very literally. He would have been out by 75 feet if they'd thrown home on the RBI groundout.

Knoxbanedoodle · « **Reply #99 on:** April 29, 2015, 08:34:27 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 28, 2015, 03:14:10 pm

Because they emphasize pitcher's pitching. It's not something that simply happens. It's a full-time job. To act as if pitcher is simply another defensive position is just being silly.

I agree that a pitcher is categorically different from any other position on the field, but would giving him more at bats in the minors completely derail a pitcher's program? Seems to me the decision to DH in the minors is at least as much about giving positionless hitters a chance to develop their swings. NL teams can turn them into tradeable assets. It would be interesting, though, to see an organization go the other way for a few years. A starting pitcher in the NL today might see more ABs in one year in the major leagues than he did throughout his whole tenure in the minors. If that wasn't the case, they'd conceivably be able to go deeper into games, spare the bullpen, and convey to their team a distinct advantage in interleague play. I'm just saying, food for thought.

WakePhil · « **Reply #100 on:** April 29, 2015, 10:26:03 am »

Quote from: Knoxbanedoodle on April 29, 2015, 08:34:27 am

I agree that a pitcher is categorically different from any other position on the field, but would giving him more at bats in the minors completely derail a pitcher's program? Seems to me the decision to DH in the minors is at least as much about giving positionless hitters a chance to develop their swings. NL teams can turn them into tradeable assets. It would be interesting, though, to see an organization go the other way for a few years. A starting pitcher in the NL today might see more ABs in one year in the major leagues than he did throughout his whole tenure in the minors. If that wasn't the case, they'd conceivably be able to go deeper into games, spare the bullpen, and convey to their team a distinct advantage in interleague play. I'm just saying, food for thought.

Baseball, at every level, has pretty clearly indicated that the investment in pitcher hitting is not worthwhile. There is nothing stopping them from doing so, but the incentive is not there.

Teams aren't looking for ways to get their starters deeper into games. Bullpens have generally become much more effective than the starter would be going through the order a third or fourth time.

WakePhil · « **Reply #101 on:** April 29, 2015, 10:50:36 am »

Quote from: Reuben on April 28, 2015, 11:54:31 pm

Hey, let's ask that pitcher who blew out his Achilles while batting:link

Thank you, Mr. Wainwright.

Wainwright said it should stay for:

1) Strategy
2) History/change is bad

This is why I am fine with the NL.

The argument that pitchers need to hit, or else we're on a slippery slope to where everything on offense is specialized doesn't ring true to me at all. In fact, the current incentives seem to support the complete opposite on the non-pitcher side.

Pitcher specialization is very strongly valued. The trend is for bigger more specialized bullpens. That leaves teams with a shorter bench. On shorter benches, versatility is more valuable. The A's and Ray's were exploiting this. The more positional versatility you have, the more flexibility there is in lineup construction which allows the teams to better exploit platoon advantages. It also provides greater insurance against injury. This allows teams to carry 8 bullpen arms if they so desire.

The trend is true in both leagues. The effectiveness of bullpens has put a premium on offensive and defensive versatility. If anything, there is more value in the DH being able to field than there was historically.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #102 on:** April 29, 2015, 11:51:49 am »

Quote from: Knoxbanedoodle on April 29, 2015, 08:34:27 am

I agree that a pitcher is categorically different from any other position on the field, but would giving him more at bats in the minors completely derail a pitcher's program? Seems to me the decision to DH in the minors is at least as much about giving positionless hitters a chance to develop their swings. NL teams can turn them into tradeable assets. It would be interesting, though, to see an organization go the other way for a few years. A starting pitcher in the NL today might see more ABs in one year in the major leagues than he did throughout his whole tenure in the minors. If that wasn't the case, they'd conceivably be able to go deeper into games, spare the bullpen, and convey to their team a distinct advantage in interleague play. I'm just saying, food for thought.

But you don't really become a competent Major League hitter by getting in a few swings every five days. You have to work on it. Every day. Then you have to get up and hit in game situations. Every day. Pitchers simply do not have the time, nor the opportunity, to put in the work required to become proficient hitters at this level. I'm sure clubs would love it if they could all hit too, but that's not their job. It's not what the clubs are paying them to do.

JimR · « **Reply #103 on:** April 29, 2015, 11:55:21 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 29, 2015, 11:51:49 am

But you don't really become a competent Major League hitter by getting in a few swings every five days. You have to work on it. Every day. Then you have to get up and hit in game situations. Every day. Pitchers simply do not have the time, nor the opportunity, to put in the work required to become proficient hitters at this level. I'm sure clubs would love it if they could all hit too, but that's not their job. It's not what the clubs are paying them to do.

amen

TxRascal · « **Reply #104 on:** April 29, 2015, 12:31:50 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 29, 2015, 11:51:49 am

Pitchers simply do not have the time, nor the opportunity, to put in the work required to become proficient hitters at this level.

Unless their name is Mike Hampton... Or Don Newcombe... Exceptions that prove the rule are always interesting.

NeilT · « **Reply #105 on:** April 29, 2015, 12:43:57 pm »

Quote from: TxRascal on April 29, 2015, 12:31:50 pm

Unless their name is Mike Hampton... Or Don Newcombe... Exceptions that prove the rule are always interesting.

Hampton seemed to love to hit, and he was a good hitter for a pitcher, but wasn't his carreer something like .240?

juliogotay · « **Reply #106 on:** April 29, 2015, 12:51:10 pm »

Quote from: NeilT on April 29, 2015, 12:43:57 pm

Hampton seemed to love to hit, and he was a good hitter for a pitcher, but wasn't his carreer something like .240?

Hampton was a great athlete. Should have won some of those Gold Gloves that Maddox got every year.

TxRascal · « **Reply #107 on:** April 29, 2015, 01:12:58 pm »

Quote from: NeilT on April 29, 2015, 12:43:57 pm

Hampton seemed to love to hit, and he was a good hitter for a pitcher, but wasn't his carreer something like .240?

.246

Four points higher than Adam Everett and five points lower than the great Brad Ausmus.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #108 on:** April 29, 2015, 01:28:55 pm »

Quote from: TxRascal on April 29, 2015, 12:31:50 pm

Unless their name is Mike Hampton... Or Don Newcombe... Exceptions that prove the rule are always interesting.

Holy Shit!

There's a TxRascal sighting...

JimR · « **Reply #109 on:** April 29, 2015, 01:38:04 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 29, 2015, 01:28:55 pm

Holy Shit!

There's a TxRascal sighting...

I was just about to say that!

ETA: Newcombe's was .271 over 10 years.

TxRascal · « **Reply #110 on:** April 29, 2015, 02:11:52 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on April 29, 2015, 01:28:55 pm

Holy Shit!

There's a TxRascal sighting...

Shhhhhh... I'm waiting for someone to abuse me 'cause I'm a disappointing rookie with 25 posts.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #111 on:** April 29, 2015, 02:14:37 pm »

Quote from: TxRascal on April 29, 2015, 02:11:52 pm

Shhhhhh... I'm waiting for someone to abuse me 'cause I'm a disappointing rookie with 25 posts.

Hey, watch your tone, Rook. When we want your opinion, we'll give it to you.

Fredia · « **Reply #112 on:** April 29, 2015, 02:16:43 pm »

hang in there it only gets worse, but still the most wonderful, best, smartest, astros fan site on the web