Altuve out of the lineup

[NeilT]

http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2014/09/28/jose-altuve-out-of-lineup-with-batting-title-on-line/

[roadrunner]

Apparently Luhnow and Lawless made the decision.  I think that is ridiculous, it's his achievement and should be his decision.

As smart as Luhnow appears, he really does seem out of touch with fans' perception.  Is he trying to make the fans hate the FO?

For all of the analytical guys the Astros employ, they should just pay one logical fan to run decisions like this by just to check the temperature of their decisions.  Im only half kidding.

It's truly embarrassing.  I'm confident most fans would rather Altuve play and lose the batting title.

[subnuclear]

i'd also like to see them beat the Mets today.

[roadrunner]

I can't get over this.  With all of the shit the FO has been taking all year long I cannot believe they thought this is the right decision, to FORCE Altuve to sit.  Then Altuve tells the press he wants to play.  Whatever extra $ they make next year during some Altuve celebration day will not be worth the added negative image Luhnow and his crack team of analytical robots will continue to take on.  


Mike Fast reads this right?  Mike, does the front office even contemplate fans' reactions to simple decisions like this?  I can't believe they did this time because it is such a brain dead one. Just tell Luhnow to log on to Twitter and he will see how ridiculous this is.

[Fredia]

so not fair
pure astros bs (office not team)

[roadrunner]

"They let me know it's something I'm not gonna get by myself.  There's a lot of people around who deserve that too."

Is this a fucking joke???  The front office is self congratulating themselves while pissing off their best player and the fans?  Seriously Luhnow can go fuck himself.  

[roadrunner]

Altuve in the lineup.

Mike, tell Jeff I'll be the logical fan you can run decisions by.  I'll do it for free.  I'm here to help.

[chuck]

I don't know what's more disgusting, dicknose Luhnow's meddling or his being a total fucking pussy and relenting in the face of a Twitter storm. Both speak volumes about what a slimy fuck he is. It's too bad he wasn't around during Drayton's tenure. They would have been a perfect fit.

[Navin R Johnson]

I don't know what's more disgusting, dicknose Luhnow's meddling or his being a total fucking pussy and relenting in the face of a Twitter storm. Both speak volumes about what a slimy fuck he is. It's too bad he wasn't around during Drayton's tenure. They would have been a perfect fit.

I have generally defended Luhnow despite some things I have heard, but I gotta agree with Chuck on this.

Go fucking play with your calculator Jeff and let the goddam manager do his job.   This isn't some game in which the playoff hangs in balance, yet your smarmy ass wants to jump in and try to ruin one of the few exciting things that has happened to this franchise since you got here? 

Seriously fuck this guy with a rusty spatula. 

This franchise under Lunhow and Crane has damn near perfected the art of dick stepping.  Total fucking clown show.

[roadrunner]

Luhnow needs a manager who is a large presence with a proven baseball track record to balance him out.  It won't happen because Luhnow just wants a puppet, but my ideal manager would serve as a reality check and would make his own decisions, challenge Luhnow's direction in a constructive way, etc.

The stat-driven arrogance crossed a line with this decision, despite the fact they corrected it.

Feel bad for Lawless, too.  He was caught in a weird situation.

[chuck]

This isn't something Altuve's going to get by himself. No, indeed, Altuve has benefitted incalculably from all the protection he's had batting behind him. Why, some of those guys were hitting over .200 at various points through the season.

Imagine what that little fucker might do if he batted in a major league lineup.

[Navin R Johnson]

At this point it wouldn't surprise me if Luhnow was somewhat rooting for Altuve to lose the batting title today so he could be validated for his chicken shit decision.

It too bad this happened on a day the Texans were playing and JJ Wattt had a 80 yard pick 6, thus about 938 people in Houston even know that this BS went down.

[chuck]

At this point it wouldn't surprise me if Luhnow was somewhat rooting for Altuve to lose the batting title today so he could be validated for his chicken shit decision.

He can root all he wants, chamo's 2-4.

[Ron Brand]

You realize that over in the NL, those chickenshit statheads in Colorado have rested Morneau the last two days while Josh Harrison of Pittsburgh played and lost the batting title.

[subnuclear]

It should have been Altuve's decision here and I'm glad the Astros figured out the right move.

[Navin R Johnson]

You realize that over in the NL, those chickenshit statheads in Colorado have rested Morneau the last two days while Josh Harrison of Pittsburgh played and lost the batting title.

What is the NL?  Don't follow that stupid league where they let pitchers hit anymore....

But seriously I did not know that.  Did their GM call the manager and override the decision?  Did Morneau want to play and they are sitting him anyway?

[Ron Brand]

What is the NL?  Don't follow that stupid league where they let pitchers hit anymore....

But seriously I did not know that.  Did their GM call the manager and override the decision?  Did Morneau want to play and they are sitting him anyway?

I don't know. I don't give enough of a shit to try to find out.

[mikefast]

Mike Fast reads this right?

Yes, I read this, and no, you guys don't know what the discussion was in the room.  You can make assumptions, but they are off base.  Be glad the right choice was made in the end.

[chuck]

Altuve wanted to play and the manager had him in the lineup. Then he wasn't. The number of scenarios that would result in Altuve's being taken out of the lineup are quite limited.

[Bench]

I'd like to know what the actual discussion was too, because there are few reasonable scenarios that support any conclusion other than the obvious one.

[jbm]

I assumed the Astros would go quietly into the offseason, but no. I come here and read there's more shit on the fan. Oh well.

Congrats Mr. Altuve.  Quite an accomplishment.

[austro]

Yes, I read this, and no, you guys don't know what the discussion was in the room.  You can make assumptions, but they are off base.  Be glad the right choice was made in the end.

Thanks, Mike. I'm sure all of this is as frustrating from your side as it is from ours, but there does seem to be a certain amount of tone-deafness on the part of the front office. Regardless, I'm glad Altuve rendered all of the arguments moot.

[roadrunner]

Yes, I read this, and no, you guys don't know what the discussion was in the room.  You can make assumptions, but they are off base.  Be glad the right choice was made in the end.

I appreciate your interaction and I'm sure you can't say anything else, but it is very hard to not make the assumptions that were made based on the facts known.  As happy as I am for Altuve and as excited as I am for 2015, I have never been more annoyed and frustrated with the front office and management.  This is much more infuriating than the Aiken situation, only because it seems to be very apparent how this all went down.

We all need to improve, whether it's the Astros on the field playing baseball or ourselves in our 9 to 5 jobs.  I hope you guys are aware that the PR with the fans is something that needs significant improvement.

[Bench]

I have never been more annoyed and frustrated with the front office and management. 

Short memory.

[roadrunner]

Short memory.

*under this administration

[Bench]

Also, I enjoyed this comment reported by McTaggart:

Altuve wasn't aware of Twitter outrage because he uses Instagram: "Instragram is beautiful. Only pictures."

Also, what's with Crane's creepy monster hand?

[mikefast]

I appreciate your interaction and I'm sure you can't say anything else, but it is very hard to not make the assumptions that were made based on the facts known.  As happy as I am for Altuve and as excited as I am for 2015, I have never been more annoyed and frustrated with the front office and management.  This is much more infuriating than the Aiken situation, only because it seems to be very apparent how this all went down.

We all need to improve, whether it's the Astros on the field playing baseball or ourselves in our 9 to 5 jobs.  I hope you guys are aware that the PR with the fans is something that needs significant improvement.

The team winning is something that needs significant improvement.

There is a certain segment of the baseball world that likes nothing better than to portray a conflict between new school and old school.  I'm not sure that's as valid in the wider pro baseball world as it was five or ten years ago. 

It's also been very popular to portray that conflict as running through the heart of the Houston Astros organization this year.  The truth is that there is way more cooperation and way less "schools" or "sides" to a conflict here than anyone on the outside likes to imagine.  We are all on the same team and from what I have seen do a very good job of pulling together in the same direction to help the team improve and grow, no matter the background of the person involved.  But if you want to read every news story about the Astros in the light of an old-school/new-school conflict, you can do that, and it will skew your understanding of what is happening in the organization.  A lot of people choose to do that, and there's not much I can say to convince them otherwise.  They will see things and find "facts" that prove me wrong.  So be it.  Eventually the truth will come out, but there's not a lot of good that PR will do in the mean time. 

On the other hand, I do understand, and the front office understands, that sometimes perception is reality.  There are things we would do differently if we could do them all over again, at least partly because of the perception that resulted.  But at the same time, the larger narratives that have been woven around them are mostly false.

[Mr. Happy]

Short memory.

What do you expect from a roadrunner?

[roadrunner]

The team winning is something that needs significant improvement.

There is a certain segment of the baseball world that likes nothing better than to portray a conflict between new school and old school.  I'm not sure that's as valid in the wider pro baseball world as it was five or ten years ago. 

It's also been very popular to portray that conflict as running through the heart of the Houston Astros organization this year.  The truth is that there is way more cooperation and way less "schools" or "sides" to a conflict here than anyone on the outside likes to imagine.  We are all on the same team and from what I have seen do a very good job of pulling together in the same direction to help the team improve and grow, no matter the background of the person involved.  But if you want to read every news story about the Astros in the light of an old-school/new-school conflict, you can do that, and it will skew your understanding of what is happening in the organization.  A lot of people choose to do that, and there's not much I can say to convince them otherwise.  They will see things and find "facts" that prove me wrong.  So be it.  Eventually the truth will come out, but there's not a lot of good that PR will do in the mean time. 

On the other hand, I do understand, and the front office understands, that sometimes perception is reality.  There are things we would do differently if we could do them all over again, at least partly because of the perception that resulted.  But at the same time, the larger narratives that have been woven around them are mostly false.

I understand all of that, and I have largely defended you guys over the last few years because I could see the logic and reasoning behind the decisions being made and it was clear when columnists were just trying to create a story (i.e. Appel bullpen session).  That is what made this particular situation so aggravating to me.  The assumed logic was wrong, and it was hard for me to assume anything else.

That said, the team is improving and I have always believed the front office's overall strategy is the right one.  That is one area I think you guys are excelling in and probably the most important one, so keep up the good work.  Thanks again.

[NeilT]

When Ted Williams last hit .400, wasn't there as discussion about him staying out of the lineup the final day of the season? 

[mikefast]

I understand all of that, and I have largely defended you guys over the last few years because I could see the logic and reasoning behind the decisions being made and it was clear when columnists were just trying to create a story (i.e. Appel bullpen session).  That is what made this particular situation so aggravating to me.  The assumed logic was wrong, and it was hard for me to assume anything else.

Part of what bugs me here is that people are making assumptions about how the discussion went that are not correct.  But since I'm not going to reveal how the discussion went, there's not a lot that I can say about that.

However, the larger narratives in this thread are certainly out of whack.  How does the narrative of a meddling stat-mad GM forcing things down the throat of his old-school baseball people square with the reality of an Astros organization that had its batting champion on the field today and a Rockies organization that did not?

[Navin R Johnson]

Part of what bugs me here is that people are making assumptions about how the discussion went that are not correct.  But since I'm not going to reveal how the discussion went, there's not a lot that I can say about that.

However, the larger narratives in this thread are certainly out of whack.  How does the narrative of a meddling stat-mad GM forcing things down the throat of his old-school baseball people square with the reality of an Astros organization that had its batting champion on the field today and a Rockies organization that did not?

Maybe this time it isn't the medias fault?  Here is what your employees said.

“I came to the park today ready to play,” said Altuve, who spoke normally and calmly. “They let me know it’s something I’m not gonna get by myself. There’s a lot of people around who deserve that too. They just decided don’t put me in the lineup.”

“Yeah, I had his name down in the lineup,” Lawless said.

“Yeah, I wanted to play, it wasn’t an option,” said Altuve, “They just said no. You know, like I said before, I was ready to play every day.

“I tried (to make an argument) in the beginning but that conversation wasn’t a conversation. Just they were letting me know that I’m not playing. They didn’t ask me.”


Yep, sounds like everyone is on the same page alright.  And I am not sure how any reasonable person could discern from those quotes that anything else but the Front Office decided to make lineup decisions.

Judging by Altuve's quote there wasn't much "cooperation" and the conversation was basically our way or the highway.

Then the media storm hits and the Astros do a 180.

You are 100% correct that at the end of the day the right decision was reached.  So in the grand scheme of things this means next to nothing.  But it is just a long line of head scratching things that have gone on.  Thats what got me to throw up my hands and lash out.

And it is all magnified times 100 due to the losing, and the the TV disaster that has dragged on for 2 seasons.

If I had 1 suggestion it would be to have Reid Ryan do more talking and Luhnow less.  If you think you are getting killed in the narrative battle, why not utilize someone you have on staff that is beloved by everyone in the city and very respected in baseball?

[roadrunner]

Part of what bugs me here is that people are making assumptions about how the discussion went that are not correct.  But since I'm not going to reveal how the discussion went, there's not a lot that I can say about that.

However, the larger narratives in this thread are certainly out of whack.  How does the narrative of a meddling stat-mad GM forcing things down the throat of his old-school baseball people square with the reality of an Astros organization that had its batting champion on the field today and a Rockies organization that did not?

I don't think anyone is complaining about new school vs old school in today's situation. 

Altuve said throughout the week that he wanted to play and then this morning he was told that he was not in the lineup and it was not his decision.  What are we supposed to think?  Maybe Crane ordered Luhnow to bench him, maybe Lawless thought it was a good idea and Luhnow listened to his interim manager, I don't know.  I guess all of the blame was thrown on Luhnow and maybe you're saying that shouldn't be the case - but that's the position he has put himself in.

I don't care what the Rockies did.  I care what the Astros did.

[HudsonHawk]

Maybe this time it isn't the medias fault?  Here is what your employees said.

“I came to the park today ready to play,” said Altuve, who spoke normally and calmly. “They let me know it’s something I’m not gonna get by myself. There’s a lot of people around who deserve that too. They just decided don’t put me in the lineup.”

“Yeah, I had his name down in the lineup,” Lawless said.

“Yeah, I wanted to play, it wasn’t an option,” said Altuve, “They just said no. You know, like I said before, I was ready to play every day.

“I tried (to make an argument) in the beginning but that conversation wasn’t a conversation. Just they were letting me know that I’m not playing. They didn’t ask me.”


Yep, sounds like everyone is on the same page alright.  And I am not sure how any reasonable person could discern from those quotes that anything else but the Front Office decided to make lineup decisions.

Judging by Altuve's quote there wasn't much "cooperation" and the conversation was basically our way or the highway.

Then the media storm hits and the Astros do a 180.

You are 100% correct that at the end of the day the right decision was reached.  So in the grand scheme of things this means next to nothing.  But it is just a long line of head scratching things that have gone on.  Thats what got me to throw up my hands and lash out.

And it is all magnified times 100 due to the losing, and the the TV disaster that has dragged on for 2 seasons.

If I had 1 suggestion it would be to have Reid Ryan do more talking and Luhnow less.  If you think you are getting killed in the narrative battle, why not utilize someone you have on staff that is beloved by everyone in the city and very respected in baseball?

It's easy to tell fans that they're idiots for believing what your people say AND they're also idiots for *not* believing what you say.  Bullshitting is one thing the Astros front office seems to be good at. 

[David in Jackson]

How do we know that the front office / Luhnow was involved in the decision to not start Altuve yesterday?

[HudsonHawk]

How do we know that the front office / Luhnow was involved in the decision to not start Altuve yesterday?

From Lawless:

“For the organization and for Jose, we thought it was best for him to sit"

Who is this "we"?  Biggio's pocket mouse?  Who else is allowed to make decisions "for the good of the organization"?

[Bench]

How do we know that the front office / Luhnow was involved in the decision to not start Altuve yesterday?

Quotes by everyone involved.

[subnuclear]

My optimistic guess is that Altuve thought the GM's suggestion was more serious than it was, so he agreed and then changed his mind later. Lawless said Altuve agreed to whatever was discussed at the meeting.

[ValpoCory]

For all of the analytical guys the Astros employ, they should just pay one logical fan to run decisions like this by just to check the temperature of their decisions.

For $10 Mill, Crane will listen to you.

[chuck]

My optimistic guess is that Altuve thought the GM's suggestion was more serious than it was, so he agreed and then changed his mind later. Lawless said Altuve agreed to whatever was discussed at the meeting.

It seemed pretty serious given Altuve said it was a we're not discussing this, you're sitting today sort of exchange.

I think the best we can hope for is that it came from Crane and then the FO convinced him to rethink it.

[subnuclear]

It seemed pretty serious given Altuve said it was a we're not discussing this, you're sitting today sort of exchange.

I think the best we can hope for is that it came from Crane and then the FO convinced him to rethink it.

I think the best case is if the FO said "if you want to sit then we will back you up" and Altuve just misinterpreted that as an order or was unsure how he felt about it and went along.

Obviously the FO would like to market the hell out of this, so who knows.

[chuck]

I think the best case is if the FO said "if you want to sit then we will back you up" and Altuve just misinterpreted that as an order or was unsure how he felt about it and went along.

This seems decidedly unlikely given the information we have by way of the quotes collected.

I might mention that the nerd cave versus old school narrative does not interest me at all. Is there some 65 year old Astros scout racing around Georgia and South Carolina in his Lincoln LTD watching juco players and chain smoking Pall Malls who thinks Luhnow's a fuckwit? Sure, there is. I don't care about that.

I do care though about the way the FO treats its players. And early returns are not encouraging. If the FO decided to sit an unwilling Altuve this simply another example of the FO mishandling its players. On the other hand, if the order came from the owner and the FO talked him down then I would happily credit Luhnow and his gang with a job well done. I just doubt very much that that's how it went.

[Jacksonian]

This seems decidedly unlikely given the information we have by way of the quotes collected.

I might mention that the nerd cave versus old school narrative does not interest me at all. Is there some 65 year old Astros scout racing around Georgia and South Carolina in his Lincoln LTD watching juco players and chain smoking Pall Malls who thinks Luhnow's a fuckwit? Sure, there is. I don't care about that.

I do care though about the way the FO treats its players. And early returns are not encouraging. If the FO decided to sit an unwilling Altuve this simply another example of the FO mishandling its players. On the other hand, if the order came from the owner and the FO talked him down then I would happily credit Luhnow and his gang with a job well done. I just doubt very much that that's how it went.

Drelich has some quotes that make me wonder if the FO thought there was no way Martinez would be able to catch Altuve unless he went 0-fer so why not let him sit the last day and soak in his glory and not worry about it.  IOW, some sort of bizarre reward for a job well done.  If that's the case, well intentioned but tone deaf.

[Dark Star]

Part of what bugs me here is that people are making assumptions about how the discussion went that are not correct.  But since I'm not going to reveal how the discussion went, there's not a lot that I can say about that.

However, the larger narratives in this thread are certainly out of whack.  How does the narrative of a meddling stat-mad GM forcing things down the throat of his old-school baseball people square with the reality of an Astros organization that had its batting champion on the field today and a Rockies organization that did not?

You have brought up this "new school vs. old school" bullshit more than once. I don't spend any time reading whatever it is you post on this site, but in the few discussions I have been involved in where you also posted, this has been a contant theme of yours.

Do you guys have some kind of siege mentality, and run to man the barricades every time you feel like you are under attack from old school diehards?  It sounds like it, but I really hope not.

That would be fucking retarded.

[subnuclear]

I'm mostly paying attention to what Lawless said which Drellich tweeted yesterday. He's probably wrote it up somewhere, but I'm on my phone otherwise I'd dig it up.

[Navin R Johnson]

It is obvious that as of Saturday night Altuve was playing.  Lawless was quoted as saying he had Altuve was in the lineup.  This has been established.

Then Luhnow & company gets together and decides that Altuve shouldn't play.  Mike Fast even spoke to this in this thread, with the caveat that we don't know what they were discussing and how they came to the decision. We just know the decision was made.

Next there is a meeting Sunday morning with Altuve, Lawless, Luhnow and David Stearns.  Altuve is quoted as saying he told them he wanted to play and they told him it didn't matter what he wanted.  Lawless acquiesces and Altuve is yanked.

Then the backlash hits. And an hour later the Astros do a 180 and Altuve is in the lineup.

And there has been radio silence from Luhnow since.  He has declined to answer questions about it thus far.  Why he wouldn't comment to clear this up is anyone's guess.  Maybe their decision process for coming up with when to play potential batting champs is a trade secret they are guarding?

The other annoyance is Altuve's quote that the front office told him, "They let me know it’s something I’m not gonna get by myself. There’s a lot of people around who deserve that too."

W T F ?   Who exactly are those people? I mean some people deserve some credit like his hitting coach but this is 100% a JOSE ALTUVE award.  I'd love to know who these "other people who deserve the award" are.    Well maybe Tim Purpura and the scout who signed him deserve some credit too.

[chuck]

And there has been radio silence from Luhnow since.  He has declined to answer questions about it thus far.  Why he wouldn't comment to clear this up is anyone's guess.

Internally we decided to rest Jose both in order to protect his lead and to allow him to fully enjoy the day. Jose made it clear that he wanted to play and after a bit of reflection we realized that to deny him his competitive spirit would run counter to so much of what we value and teach as an organization. His 2-4 day with yet another double was a very special way to end an extraordinary season.

It's really not that hard to put a nice spin on things if you give a shit one way or another.

[subnuclear]

Read what Lawless says here. That doesn't sound like the Astros made Altuve do anything. I know Altuve said something different, but he ultimately did get his way, which makes me think he changed his mind.

[HudsonHawk]

Read what Lawless says here. That doesn't sound like the Astros made Altuve do anything. I know Altuve said something different, but he ultimately did get his way, which makes me think he changed his mind.

So when Altuve says "Yeah, I wanted to play, it wasn’t an option.  They just said no. You know, like I said before, I was ready to play every day.  I tried (to make an argument) in the beginning but that conversation wasn’t a conversation. Just they were letting me know that I’m not playing. They didn’t ask me.", your interpretation is that Altuve is obviously lying?

[subnuclear]

Lawless seems to think he could have said no. Altuve may have not understood that at the time. Altuve may have believed he didn't have options, but according to Lawless he did.

[jbm]

Is it possible something was lost in the translation with Altuve?

eta.. Not exactly "translation," but you know.

[HudsonHawk]

Lawless seems to think he could have said no. Altuve may have not understood that at the time. Altuve may have believed he didn't have options, but according to Lawless he did.

So Lawless says "He wanted to play".  And then says "we just sat there and talked and came up with a plan and everybody agreed to it ."  So "being OK with it" after you've been told by your boss and your boss's boss = made the decision yourself?

[HudsonHawk]

Is it possible something was lost in the translation with Altuve?

What translation?  He was told he wasn't playing.  Altuve speaks perfect English.  How hard is it to misunderstand "no"?  He's short, he's not retarded.

[subnuclear]

So Lawless says "He wanted to play".  And then says "we just sat there and talked and came up with a plan and everybody agreed to it ."  So "being OK with it" after you've been told by your boss and your boss's boss = made the decision yourself?

No, but if they wanted his ok he did have say.

[HudsonHawk]

No, but if they wanted his ok he did have say.

So when you're in a meeting with your boss and his boss, and they tell you you're going to do something, you're clear in your mind that it means it's totally voluntary?

[roadrunner]

Drelich has some quotes that make me wonder if the FO thought there was no way Martinez would be able to catch Altuve unless he went 0-fer so why not let him sit the last day and soak in his glory and not worry about it.  IOW, some sort of bizarre reward for a job well done.  If that's the case, well intentioned but tone deaf.

This was my assumption after reading everything.  It also fits the FO's theme of thinking they're doing what's best for the org but once it hits reality they look like complete jackasses.

[roadrunner]

The other annoyance is Altuve's quote that the front office told him, "They let me know it’s something I’m not gonna get by myself. There’s a lot of people around who deserve that too."

W T F ?   Who exactly are those people? I mean some people deserve some credit like his hitting coach but this is 100% a JOSE ALTUVE award.  I'd love to know who these "other people who deserve the award" are.    Well maybe Tim Purpura and the scout who signed him deserve some credit too.

This was the tipping point for me.  I don't care if the FO guys think they are more important than the players on the field, but you sure as hell don't let the player know that you think that. 

Of course, that could be taken out of context and just used as bait for clicks.  I'm not sure sure how and what context that would be, but there's a chance I suppose.

[subnuclear]

So when you're in a meeting with your boss and his boss, and they tell you you're going to do something, you're clear in your mind that it means it's totally voluntary?

If I thought it was stupid I would definitely let them know, but that's me and I probably wouldn't have at 24.

[Limey]

The other annoyance is Altuve's quote that the front office told him, "They let me know it’s something I’m not gonna get by myself. There’s a lot of people around who deserve that too."

W T F ?   Who exactly are those people? I mean some people deserve some credit like his hitting coach but this is 100% a JOSE ALTUVE award.  I'd love to know who these "other people who deserve the award" are.    Well maybe Tim Purpura and the scout who signed him deserve some credit too.

John Terry?

[Navin R Johnson]

Internally we decided to rest Jose both in order to protect his lead and to allow him to fully enjoy the day. Jose made it clear that he wanted to play and after a bit of reflection we realized that to deny him his competitive spirit would run counter to so much of what we value and teach as an organization. His 2-4 day with yet another double was a very special way to end an extraordinary season.

It's really not that hard to put a nice spin on things if you give a shit one way or another.

I'd imagine your spin is actually pretty darn close to what happened. 

Not to denigrate your well thought out attempt at playing PR guy, which was well done, but that is something a 7th grader could have figured out. 

Which is what makes it more absurd that Luhnow bungled this thing and now has gone into hiding.  Is he really that stubborn to admit he made a mistake?  I mean, they already defacto admitted it by having to insert Altuve back int he lineup, but is it really that difficult to just come out and say it?

Maybe they are worried the "old school" guys will make fun of them, or the media/boogeyman will twist their quotes to make them look like the bad guys....

[Limey]

What translation?  He was told he wasn't playing.  Altuve speaks perfect English.  How hard is it to misunderstand "no"?  He's short, he's not retarded.

Also, "no" means "no" in Spanish, too.

[ferret]

So when you're in a meeting with your boss and his boss, and they tell you you're going to do something, you're clear in your mind that it means it's totally voluntary?

Quick question, have I hugged Craig Biggio in front of 30,000 people prior to this meeting?

[Navin R Johnson]

John Terry?

That is fantastic.  Being fairly new to soccer I hear people razzing JT all the time but really don't know much about him.

[Limey]

That is fantastic.  Being fairly new to soccer I hear people razzing JT all the time but really don't know much about him.

Here's a better link...to Tumblr.

[Limey]

Here's a better link...to Tumblr.

...and maybe the best ever.

[Dark Star]

Quick question, have I hugged Craig Biggio in front of 30,000 people prior to this meeting?

Yesss! Yes, you have.

[ferret]

Yesss! Yes, you have.

Then my reply would be for the bosses to roll up their lineup card as tight as possible and insert it in their incommodius bunghole.  They might be comfortable with backing into things but I have a batting title to win.  What are they going to do, trade me?

[BUWebguy]

I think the best we can hope for is that it came from Crane and then the FO convinced him to rethink it.

This might be the answer that best pulls the pieces together -- the quotes from Altuve and Lawless (that the call came from above), Mike Fast's response here (that the whole story isn't public) and Luhnow's silence (effectively taking the blame for his boss).

[roadrunner]

This might be the answer that best pulls the pieces together -- the quotes from Altuve and Lawless (that the call came from above), Mike Fast's response here (that the whole story isn't public) and Luhnow's silence (effectively taking the blame for his boss).

Crane was at the game

[Lefty]

thinking they're doing what's best for the org but once it hits reality they look like complete jackasses

I know the lockerroom was rife with slogans, but do they have any plastered over the doorways in the offices?

[Reuben]

You have brought up this "new school vs. old school" bullshit more than once. I don't spend any time reading whatever it is you post on this site, but in the few discussions I have been involved in where you also posted, this has been a contant theme of yours.

Do you guys have some kind of siege mentality, and run to man the barricades every time you feel like you are under attack from old school diehards?  It sounds like it, but I really hope not.

That would be fucking retarded.

Come on, man, you're better than this. Whether you disagree with Mike or not I don't see the need to curse at him here. Some of us (presumably most of us, but clearly not you) appreciate the fact that he is willing to answer questions and discuss things here.

[roadrunner]

Come on, man, you're better than this. Whether you disagree with Mike or not I don't see the need to curse at him here. Some of us (presumably most of us, but clearly not you) appreciate the fact that he is willing to answer questions and discuss things here.

I'd like to reiterate this.  It is very cool that Mike is even interacting with us.  He's obviously pissed off at the media's portrayal of the Astros FO, and I don't blame him.  There's nothing wrong with that even though I think that's misplaced in the Altuve lineup situation.

[JimR]

Come on, man, you're better than this. Whether you disagree with Mike or not I don't see the need to curse at him here. Some of us (presumably most of us, but clearly not you) appreciate the fact that he is willing to answer questions and discuss things here.

he knows what this site is like. it is not a popularity contest here. no harm, no foul imo

[HudsonHawk]

he knows what this site is like. it is not a popularity contest here. no harm, no foul imo

I can't imagine he gets too worked up over us anyway. 

[Mr. Happy]

he knows what this site is like. it is not a popularity contest here. no harm, no foul imo

Just read the Manifesto. It's gotten much more gentile as the denizens age that the rough and tumble place that it once was.

[Lefty]

It's gotten much more gentile as the denizens age

Oy vey

[Ron Brand]

Just read the Manifesto. It's gotten much more gentile as the denizens age that the rough and tumble place that it once was.

Very, very much so.

[subnuclear]

I read a Nationals board that is about half kids and it's just stupid. Be careful what you wish for.

[NeilT]

Oy vey

It's so much more gentile that I tried to glue the bit left over from my bris back on with Super Glue.

[Dark Star]

Come on, man, you're better than this. Whether you disagree with Mike or not I don't see the need to curse at him here. Some of us (presumably most of us, but clearly not you) appreciate the fact that he is willing to answer questions and discuss things here.

You can kiss his ass if you want to.  I'm not.

I don't care one way or another about this person, and I am not aware whether his presence in this forum has "brought anything" to the discussion or not. And it does not matter to me, either way.

If he (or anyone else) makes a fucking trite, retarded, and in fact disingenuous argument that the front office attacks after the Altuve thing were the result of fucking "old school vs. new school" thinking, which is just fucking ridiculous, and insulting; and he is doing it in the course of fucking scolding fans (us) for judging things that appear to be a certain way wrongly, because we just don't know the insider story, and he's not telling, well ...  I am on a personally imposed "fuck" quota this month, so I won't use it as a modifying adjective again here.

But you get the idea.

[ferret]

You can kiss his ass if you want to.  I'm not.

I don't care one way or another about this person, and I am not aware whether his presence in this forum has "brought anything" to the discussion or not. And it does not matter to me, either way.

If he (or anyone else) makes a fucking trite, retarded, and in fact disingenuous argument that the front office attacks after the Altuve thing were the result of fucking "old school vs. new school" thinking, which is just fucking ridiculous, and insulting; and he is doing it in the course of fucking scolding fans (us) for judging things that appear to be a certain way wrongly, because we just don't know the insider story, and he's not telling, well ...  I am on a personally imposed "fuck" quota this month, so I won't use it as a modifying adjective again here.

But you get the idea.

Well it’s all a behind the curtains mystery.  Luhnow has a superior method that will definitely create a winning team in 2 or 3 maybe 4 years thus making up for the years of watching a team that celebrates 92 loss seasons. The initial decision to hold Altuve out is symptomatic of what we’re expected to put up with.  The game on the field, today’s game, watching a great player, is not as important as the method, now complete with a holographic manager,  that is being devised to spin World Series victories out of cotton candy. 

[Bench]

Just read the Manifesto. It's gotten much more gentile as the denizens age that the rough and tumble place that it once was.

Todd still pops up every now and again, but I guess we haven't heard much from Alkie or Trum lately.  Then again, the Enrique Hernandez nickname scandal was awfully upsetting to many.

[NeilT]

Todd still pops up every now and again, but I guess we haven't heard much from Alkie or Trum lately.  Then again, the Enrique Hernandez nickname scandal was awfully upsetting to many.

Not to mention the uproar over the tamales.

[das]

Oy vey

Consider that hornets nest poked.

[NeilT]

I've figured out what's up:  we no longer have Chris Burke to discuss:

http://www.spikesnstars.com/forums/index.php?topic=63956.0

[HudsonHawk]

I've figured out what's up:  we no longer have Chris Burke to discuss:

http://www.spikesnstars.com/forums/index.php?topic=63956.240

The best part of that thread was the discussion of albums from 1974.  Which reminded me...Be Bop Deluxe's Axe Victim is one awesome fuckin' record.

[Mr. Happy]

The best part of that thread was the discussion of albums from 1974.  Which reminded me...Be Bop Deluxe's Axe Victim is one awesome fuckin' record.

In 1974, I was all about You Little Trustmaker by the Times.

[NeilT]

The best part of that thread was the discussion of albums from 1974.  Which reminded me...Be Bop Deluxe's Axe Victim is one awesome fuckin' record.

The hijack got pretty funny.  i recall that both Viva Terlingua! and Whiskey River were released around 1974, and neither got mentioned. 

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

The hijack got pretty funny.  i recall that both Viva Terlingua! and Whiskey River were released around 1974, and neither got mentioned. 

Half right.

[Ron Brand]

So...much...eye...bleeding...

[Craig]

I am on a personally imposed "fuck" quota this month, so I won't use it as a modifying adjective again here.

I still have many "fucks" to give, if you'd like to use some of mine.

[Dark Star]

I still have many "fucks" to give, if you'd like to use some of mine.

Is this like on Facebook, when people I've never heard of offer me sheep and cows and pigs and shit for Farmville? Or money or tokens or whatever for Candy Crush?

If it is then, Fuck, yeah!  I'm up for that!  Send me all your extra fucks!!

[NeilT]

Is this like on Facebook, when people I've never heard of offer me sheep and cows and pigs and shit for Farmville? Or money or tokens or whatever for Candy Crush?

If it is then, Fuck, yeah!  I'm up for that!  Send me all your extra fucks!!

Like.

[toddthebod]

Todd still pops up every now and again, but I guess we haven't heard much from Alkie or Trum lately.  Then again, the Enrique Hernandez nickname scandal was awfully upsetting to many.

I'm actually "here" every day.  I just don't post much because our computer system doesn't allow me to post on this site, and it's a pain to do so on my phone.

Plus, I mostly post when I'm angry and frankly while I would like to see the Astros win more, I can't say that I am angry about the front office's approach about building this team.  It is hard to say go out and get a free agent when there are lots of young players coming up from the minors at virtually every position. 

[Fredia]

thoughtful and well said. thank you

[Dark Star]

I'm actually "here" every day.  I just don't post much because our computer system doesn't allow me to post on this site, and it's a pain to do so on my phone.

Plus, I mostly post when I'm angry and frankly while I would like to see the Astros win more, I can't say that I am angry about the front office's approach about building this team.  It is hard to say go out and get a free agent when there are lots of young players coming up from the minors at virtually every position. 

toddthe bod: Voice of Reason