Porter Fired

[roadrunner]

Happy Labor Day

[Houston]

He was dealt a crappy hand and told it was a full house. He'll find another job pretty quickly, I hope.

[MusicMan]

And Trembley.

Tom Lawless named interim manager.

Not hard to read between the lines with the timing.  Porter said he controlled the lineup.  With September call ups, he obviously wasn't willing to play who Luhnow wanted.

[subnuclear]

He was dealt a crappy hand and told it was a full house. He'll find another job pretty quickly, I hope.

The full house statement is false.

[Ron Brand]

I guess you can't go on griping about your boss after he's told you to put a lid on it. Especially when the clock is ticking on your boss.

[Ron Brand]

He was dealt a crappy hand and told it was a full house. He'll find another job pretty quickly, I hope.

He was dealt a membership in a pretty exclusive club. He knew what he had to work with.

[astrosfan76]

Everett named bench coach, as well.

Bo’s passion and energy are unparalleled, and his desire to win unquestioned,” Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow said in a statement. “This decision was not made because of our current level of competitiveness in the Major Leagues. I recognize that our win-loss record is largely a product of an organizational strategy for which I am responsible. Rather, I made this decision because I believe we need a new direction in our clubhouse.

“What we will seek going forward is a consistent and united message throughout the entire organization.  It is essential that as an organization we create an atmosphere at the Major League level where our young players can come up and continue to develop and succeed.  Ultimately, I am responsible for creating that culture, and I will do everything in my power to do so—even when it means making difficult moves like the one we made today.

This pretty much sums everything up.  It wasn't a result of the club's performance, it was because of the rift.  

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/2014/09/01/porter-trembley-relieved-of-duties-by-astros/

[Ron Brand]

From Zachary Levine:

RIP Bo Porter. He was a good man. He often knew the rules of baseball. The losses weren't his fault. He likely tried to get his boss fired.

[Ron Brand]

Footer:

Luhnow's statement suggests an acknowledgement that the current state of Astros is not all on Porter. Which would be correct x1000.

[MusicMan]

From Zachary Levine:

Except when the umps let him change his mind on a pitching change.

[Jacksonian]

Everett named bench coach, as well.

This pretty much sums everything up.  It wasn't a result of the club's performance, it was because of the rift.  

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/2014/09/01/porter-trembley-relieved-of-duties-by-astros/

Seems clear Bo didn't believe in what Luhnow was doing.  Since Crane is backing Luhnow it's a good move for Porter to move on.

[Mr. Happy]

Seems clear Bo didn't believe in what Luhnow was doing.  Since Crane is backing Luhnow it's a good move for Porter to move on.

We didn't lose much. I'm glad that Trembley went too. The in-game moves often were inexplicable.

[Fredia]

does that mean no more shift? who is in line? glad to see adam e.
for some of the players he is the only big league manager they have known, wonder how this will play out with them

[hostros7]

AE coming on as bench coach.  That feels like a solid move. 

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

It would be difficult for me to work for a guy like Luhnow, I hate tanking on purpose, it belittles the notion of professional competition and renders an exhibition not too far removed from pro wrestling in terms of sports entertainment. But his method is approved by the owner, possible dictated. However, I think Porter should not have usurped the chain of command and whined to Crane. That is asking to get fired.

[Navin R Johnson]

He was gonna be fired this off season anyway, this just sped up the process a month or so. 

[Bench]

I hope he leaves the Wheel of Motivational Slogans behind.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I've always kind of like Tom Lawless, he was a good utility man, all glove no stick.  Well, except that one time. I was in the stands that day when Tom Lawless flipped his bat. It's the only WS game I've ever attended and it was quite a moment.

[Bench]

From Zachary Levine:

Levine is gold.

[roadrunner]

Levine is gold.

Amen

[roadrunner]

Drellich also seems to have some agenda against the Astros FO.  Hard to see him being on the inside as a media member going forward.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

He was gonna be fired this off season anyway, this just sped up the process a month or so. 

Yeah, if anything he got a head start on getting his next job.

[Bench]

I've always kind of like Tom Lawless, he was a good utility man, all glove no stick.  Well, except that one time. I was in the stands that day when Tom Lawless flipped his bat. It's the only WS game I've ever attended and it was quite a moment.

Great article.  I hope Lawless still has a good sense of humor.  He'll need it.

Youtube needs a better video of that home run.

[juliogotay]

Moving forward, I hope they give Bogar a look.

[David in Jackson]

Why not Tony D as interim again?

[NeilT]

Did I miss something?  Did they skip firing the hitting coach?

[Ron Brand]

There's a hitting coach?

[jbm]

What a dysfunctional franchise. 

[Navin R Johnson]

It is all part of the process.

[subnuclear]

The Astros are 47.5% win percentage in the last 100 games. The team on the field has seen some real improvement. The coaching staff and the FO are both a part of that, so I'm sorry they can't get along.

[Reuben]

Moving forward, I hope they give Bogar a look.

I think they offered him the bench coach job last time, but he turned it down when they asked him to sign a clause that he wouldn't leave for another job (ie. manager) for x number of years.

[moriartp]

I think they offered him the bench coach job last time, but he turned it down when they asked him to sign a clause that he wouldn't leave for another job (ie. manager) for x number of years.

That's how I remember it. I would assume he's on the shortlist this time around.

[austro]

That's how I remember it. I would assume he's on the shortlist this time around.

Are the Astros on Bogar's short list?

[chuck]

I'll be fascinated to see what sort of delusional lunatic takes the manager's job. And how long he lasts before Ground Control spits out a black tab.

At some point Luhnow is going to have to show something at the major league level. Second to last after three years of dead last shouldn't really charm anyone. The team is a league-wide pariah and most everyone is rooting for them to fail, specifically for Luhnow to fail, so he better fucking quit failing, soon, or he'll find himself back at Jeans West.

[Fredia]

c a s u l a t y

 
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bo-porter-fired-astros-manager-172242158.html

[The Spleen]

What the interviews for Porter's replacement will look like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTv0Gywb5gM

[Ron Brand]

Warning! Dick Justice link:

Surprisingly decent article from him.

[hostros7]

Warning! Dick Justice link:

Surprisingly decent article from him.

 I've got one Yankee dollar that says the "one player" is Bud Norris.

[jbm]

Warning! Dick Justice link:

Surprisingly decent article from him.

Seems like a typical Justice article to me: slanted. He talks about Porter's methods or mannerisms bothering some, and oddly surprising the people who just hired him, and conveniently leaves out the other dynamic that some were also bothered by Luhnow's methods and mannerisms. Basically, a slanted article aimed to make Porter look bad.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Great article.  I hope Lawless still has a good sense of humor.  He'll need it...

Before he became a delusional piece of crap, Murray Chass used to be a good writer.

[Mr. Happy]

I'm sitting here watching Detroit put it on Cleveland. The Cleveland television announcers talked about Porter. They weren't surprised, describing his calling the club into the clubhouse during the game as a sign of desperation. Rick Manning said about that stunt: "Are you kidding me? This is the big leagues." Porter was overmatched and not ready to manage.

[Reuben]

Seems like a typical Justice article to me: slanted. He talks about Porter's methods or mannerisms bothering some, and oddly surprising the people who just hired him, and conveniently leaves out the other dynamic that some were also bothered by Luhnow's methods and mannerisms. Basically, a slanted article aimed to make Porter look bad.

Yeah, whether it's praising Bud Selig and downplaying the shittiness of the forced move to the AL, or something like this, ultimately, he's writing for MLB, and Luhnow and Crane currently represent one of the 30 teams; Porter currently does not. McTaggart's stuff is even more party-line.

Then on the other hand you've got Ortiz and Drellich (and fucking Brian T. Smith, who covered the team, badly, for 1/2 season) vomiting out their one-sided anti-Luhnow/Crane rumor-mongering shit. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anyone close enough to the team, and unbiased enough, to offer an informed, objective look at things. Perhaps Footer and Levine come closest.

[jbm]

I'm aware of the Ortiz stuff, and generally dismiss him like I dismiss Justice, but I'm not aware of the Drellich stuff.  I mean, I read some criticism of the front office by him, but I'm thankful some reporter has the professional integrity to question an organization that has performed as poorly as this one.  What has Drellich said that is so out of line? 

[Reuben]

Personally I can't tell his articles apart from Ortiz's of late. He's been writing ad nauseam about the same shit as Ortiz: the Appel "scandal", the data leak, the Aiken fiasco, the latest Bud Norris quote. Drellich covered the Red Sox before he came to the Chron. I lived in or near Boston for 9 years; between all the various papers and radio stations obsessively covering the Sox there was always, of course, plenty of sensationalist pot-stirring blowing things out of proportion. And there were writers/hosts who clearly were on Theo Epstein's side, or clearly on Lucchino's side, or clearly disliked Jimy Williams or Grady Little or whatever. They got readers/listeners and kept them by being a source you could count on to rip a certain side of each issue. So it's not surprising that Drellich would fall into that style at the Chron.

[juliogotay]

Personally I can't tell his articles apart from Ortiz's of late. He's been writing ad nauseam about the same shit as Ortiz: the Appel "scandal", the data leak, the Aiken fiasco, the latest Bud Norris quote. Drellich covered the Red Sox before he came to the Chron. I lived in or near Boston for 9 years; between all the various papers and radio stations obsessively covering the Sox there was always, of course, plenty of sensationalist pot-stirring blowing things out of proportion. And there were writers/hosts who clearly were on Theo Epstein's side, or clearly on Lucchino's side, or clearly disliked Jimy Williams or Grady Little or whatever. They got readers/listeners and kept them by being a source you could count on to rip a certain side of each issue. So it's not surprising that Drellich would fall into that style at the Chron.


I think it's also the mentality to kick a team while they are down. The fanbase is already finishing with the corpse so throw them some fresh meat. When things turn around the Chronicle will be on the bandwagon with flags flying.

[roadrunner]

I'm aware of the Ortiz stuff, and generally dismiss him like I dismiss Justice, but I'm not aware of the Drellich stuff.  I mean, I read some criticism of the front office by him, but I'm thankful some reporter has the professional integrity to question an organization that has performed as poorly as this one.  What has Drellich said that is so out of line? 

His tweets don't come across as objective at all.  He also got a little fussy when Keith Law downplayed the Appel bullpen stuff.  It's pretty obvious he has some axe to grind.

[Ron Brand]

Keith Law was spanking Drellich's tweets pretty hard yesterday.

[jbm]

I keep looking for Drellich's offensive tweets and every "objective" spanking and come away perplexed.  It appears that some fans want their reporters to merely parrot and blindly support those they cover. 

[subnuclear]

Personally I can't tell his articles apart from Ortiz's of late. He's been writing ad nauseam about the same shit as Ortiz: the Appel "scandal", the data leak, the Aiken fiasco, the latest Bud Norris quote. Drellich covered the Red Sox before he came to the Chron. I lived in or near Boston for 9 years; between all the various papers and radio stations obsessively covering the Sox there was always, of course, plenty of sensationalist pot-stirring blowing things out of proportion. And there were writers/hosts who clearly were on Theo Epstein's side, or clearly on Lucchino's side, or clearly disliked Jimy Williams or Grady Little or whatever. They got readers/listeners and kept them by being a source you could count on to rip a certain side of each issue. So it's not surprising that Drellich would fall into that style at the Chron.

I agree Drellich is just doing his job and I haven't seen him make anything up. Obviously, there was stuff going on.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I agree Drellich is just doing his job and I haven't seen him make anything up. Obviously, there was stuff going on.

Agreed, mostly.  I think Drellich and Ortiz were definitely on Porter's side, or at least were more than happy to publish/leak his dissatisfaction with Luhnow.

[David in Jackson]

From Dierker: “It would make me nervous, but I know Luhnow has a plan, because that’s all he ever says. But it is hard to decipher what it may be from the outside looking in.”

One thing that has been striking to me is the absence of strong quotes in support of Luhnow from people (inside and outside) other than Crane.  The same is true of Crane himself.

[NeilT]

This team is better than it was a year ago, and I think it will be better next year than this year.  I don't think that was Porter's doing, I think some of it--Altuve--dates pre-Luhnow, but I don't think you go this far and not stay the course with Luhnow for two more years.  I liked Porter, and I'm sorry Porter's gone, but for better or worse this is Luhnow's play until it can't go any further.

Maybe they should bring back Dierker.  That would be entertaining.

[jbm]

I agree with you, but those bars (better than last year and this year) are pretty low.

[Ron Brand]

I keep looking for Drellich's offensive tweets and every "objective" spanking and come away perplexed.  It appears that some fans want their reporters to merely parrot and blindly support those they cover.  

Drellich isn't offensive, he's yappy and has an agenda, partly because he's been frozen out.

I guess you see whatever the hell you want to see. I sure don't have the time to go back and parse all the sites and quotes and things I saw yesterday that led me to my conclusions. I'll crawl back into my hole and you guys can continue the circle jerk.

[Limey]

From Dierker: “It would make me nervous, but I know Luhnow has a plan, because that’s all he ever says. But it is hard to decipher what it may be from the outside looking in.”

This is because the stated plan is called into question every time they dump a player in the name of improving the team for the future.  The Astros are like a kid on his X-Box who keeps hitting the reset button 30 seconds into his game because he's looking to make the perfect score.  Eventually, you actually have to play the whole game, and the Astros - under Luhnow - have shown little sign of ever doing that.

[juliogotay]

I don't agree with all of the Luhnow bashing. Maybe some don't like his manner but the ML team is showing progress, the farm has improved to one of the best and there is a definite direction and roadmap on how to achieve their destinations. Shit happens, and it has, but it seems to me this organization is a quantum leap better than the McLane era post-2005.

[BudGirl]

This is because the stated plan is called into question every time they dump a player in the name of improving the team for the future.  The Astros are like a kid on his X-Box who keeps hitting the reset button 30 seconds into his game because he's looking to make the perfect score.  Eventually, you actually have to play the whole game, and the Astros - under Luhnow - have shown little sign of ever doing that.

What player besides Cosart, who many seem to think could have been a clubhouse cancer in the future [please note, I liked him], was dumped this year? 

In today's Chronicle, there is a quote from Luhnow saying, "At the big league level, I take responsibility for the roster.  I take responsibility for our baseball operations, which includes the staff in the clubhouse, and I felt strongly that we need a new direction for the next phase of where we are as the Houston Astros.  Ultimately, everybody in this (news conference) room and everybody in the city is going to hold me responsible for results. ... We have to make decisions about who are the right people to be there to support me in achieving the goal.  If I don't succeed, there will be ramifications.  But I fully plan to."

I think he will succeed.

[BudGirl]

Drellich isn't offensive, he's yappy and has an agenda, partly because he's been frozen out.

I guess you see whatever the hell you want to see. I sure don't have the time to go back and parse all the sites and quotes and things I saw yesterday that led me to my conclusions. I'll crawl back into my hole and you guys can continue the circle jerk.

I think he'd be yappy even if he wasn't frozen out.

[NeilT]

I agree with you, but those bars (better than last year and this year) are pretty low.

Yep, it's so low it smells like teen spirit.  But at least this August I think I can imagine a .500 team next season. 

[Fredia]

beating tx. was a giant step in my book...kinda hate the stranger

[subnuclear]

Yep, it's so low it smells like teen spirit.  But at least this August I think I can imagine a .500 team next season. 

Luhnow and Crane have both said that was their expectations and I don't think that is BS either way.

[Fredia]

they could be half right or half wrong ..50 per cent

[roadrunner]

I keep looking for Drellich's offensive tweets and every "objective" spanking and come away perplexed.  It appears that some fans want their reporters to merely parrot and blindly support those they cover. 

The Steve Phillips tweet was pretty direct.

[Reuben]

The Steve Phillips tweet was pretty direct.

Missed it; what was the gist?

[Duman]

I have been surprised by the silence of Reid Ryan in this case.  I figured he would be Crane's mouthpiece and he has been pretty quiet except for a bobblehead this season.

[astrosfan76]

I have been surprised by the silence of Reid Ryan in this case.  I figured he would be Crane's mouthpiece and he has been pretty quiet except for a bobblehead this season.

I've been thinking the same thing.  The media hasn't really seemed to try gaining his input, either.

[jbm]

They had Drellich on the ESPN baseball podcast, and asked him about Reid and Nolan.  Drellich said Reid stays on his side of the shop.

[NeilT]

This one was interesting to me.  I don't think I've seen it linked yet.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/92595820/bo-porters-firing-is-indicative-of-mlbs-changing-power-structure#!bOEnHG

[Ron Brand]

Something else.

[juliogotay]

The Crawfish Boxes make a pretty good case for Dave Martinez as a favorite. http://www.crawfishboxes.com/2014/9/3/6101399/bo-porter-fired-who-are-the-astros-managerial-candidates

[geezerdonk]

Carter mercurial?

[Fredia]

i want bogie..

[David in Jackson]

Listened to Jason Stark on Buster Olney's podcast yesterday.  Discouraging assessment of morale within the organization (players and staff) and of outside perceptions of the team.  Both Ryans and Biggio seen as largely figureheads (I don't have an opinion of what their role should be or if they would improve things).  What I'd like to hear is something like: "The Astros are committed to an unprecedented overhaul, more dramatic and very different than what any other team has tried in recent decades.  However, it is striking how at every level of staff, scouting, administration, baseball and business side, they believe in the process and are confident in the outcome."  I'm not hearing that.  The Astros are portrayed as a tight, secretive group of number crunchers who keep most of the people who work there in the dark.  Of course, this approach is tough for players and managers (who want to win today and whose jobs depend on it).  And it would be tough for people who work for Luhnow and Crane to convey this confidence (because they are employees).  But part of Crane and Luhnow's job is get all the people who don't wear a uniform to believe in the process every day (and feel a meaningful part of it).  I don't know how (or if) this can be measured (lots of sportswriters with anonymous sources keep popping up), but I'd sure like to hear it.

[Ron Brand]

It's completely beyond my understanding how Crane and Luhnow have ignored getting a good PR team together. This has been a glaring need for such a long time. Relying on others to infer their story is a catastrophe.

[jbm]

PR involves the public, and that involves people and ..........

Seriously, I think Luhnow has bigger problems in this area than Crane.  Crane doesn't seem to give a shit if anyone criticizes him or thinks he's an asshole (a trait I admire in him), but Luhnow seems to bristle at those things.   

[NeilT]

It's completely beyond my understanding how Crane and Luhnow have ignored getting a good PR team together. This has been a glaring need for such a long time. Relying on others to infer their story is a catastrophe.

They need to hire Crash Davis to drill them on press quotes.

[Ebby Calvin]

They need to hire Crash Davis to drill them on press quotes.

Alyson, right? That's a beautiful name. Is that Greek? That Alyson. I don't know. It's a beautiful name, though. There's a great song by Elvis Costello. Do you know it?  'Allison, I know this world is killing you, Oh, Allison, my aim is true.'  Anyway, a good friend of mine used to say, 'This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball. You hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Sometimes it rains.' Think about that for a while.

[VirtualBob]

It's completely beyond my understanding how Crane and Luhnow have ignored getting a good PR team together. This has been a glaring need for such a long time. Relying on others to infer their story is a catastrophe.

Bring back Pam Gardner!

[Reuben]

It's completely beyond my understanding how Crane and Luhnow have ignored getting a good PR team together. This has been a glaring need for such a long time. Relying on others to infer their story is a catastrophe.

Strongly agree. There seems to be a desire for guarding their methods, preferences, and strategies to such an extreme extent that it prevents them from sharing even small pieces of information about why they are doing certain things. That's not good for PR or public perception, and if they're also bad about sharing things with players and coaches (relative to what other teams share), then that's not... good.

[Navin R Johnson]

There seems to be a desire for guarding their methods, preferences, and strategies to such an extreme extent....

Well, except when it comes to creating a password for the Astro W.O.P.R.

[Fredia]

wonder what kind of pics of the astros are floating around in the cloud

[Lefty]

wonder what kind of pics of the astros are floating around in the cloud

Pretty sure all of us are bent over.

[Dark Star]

Sorry, but the #Astros firing Bo Porter before the end of the season is bush league.

Word.

[homer]

Sorry, but the #Astros firing Bo Porter before the end of the season is bush league.

Word.

Thanks for dragging me out there. Glad he's still in the top 3%.

Don't know what it means when @richardjustice retweets one of my tweets after are many battles over the years

[Dark Star]

Thanks for dragging me out there. Glad he's still in the top 3%.

Don't know what it means when @richardjustice retweets one of my tweets after are many battles over the years

... are many battles ...

Maybe he meant their Armani battles?
Their many bottles?
? ? ?

Oh, and you are welcome.

[Mr. Happy]

Sorry, but the #Astros firing Bo Porter before the end of the season is bush league.

Word.

Not if Porter actually went to Crane to get Luhnow fired.

[NeilT]

Not if Porter actually went to Crane to get Luhnow fired.

I thought managers were always fired a month before the season ended.

[juliogotay]

I thought managers were always fired a month before the season ended.

They are by Luhnow. That's 2 in 3 years. Luhnow likes to get a head-start on the better candidates I guess. Porter was hired in late September.

This probably means absolutely nothing but the team sure hasn't hung its' head or anything the last two nights. I'm not saying they welcomed the change because I don't know that but it seems like they took it in stride and everyone seems to be playing hard and playing with a purpose.

[Nate Colbert]

Dave Trembley speaks (on the record, this time) and starts pulling numbers out of his ass:

But if you look at realistically two third of those guys that were on the roster last year that lost 111 games weren’t in the big leagues this year, a lot of ‘em aren’t even in professional baseball anymore.

By my count, 14 of the 50 guys on the 2013 roster did not play in the big leagues this year. 28% is a far cry from 2/3, Dave. And as far as the latter part of that statement, I could only identify 3 guys who didn't play professionally in 2014 (Ankiel, Cody Clark and F-Mart).

Drellich has the entire transcript of Trembley's MLB Network Radio interview here.

[jbm]

Seems kind of unfair to imply that he was the one feeding shit to the press and kind of harsh to take one quote and slam him.  When you did the math, you only counted those who never played in the big leagues during the year, his idea of "weren't in the big leagues" might mean spent the whole year in the big leagues.

At any rate, seemed like a fair interview.  He wasn't disrespectful or bitter, or at least I didn't think so.

Found the thought about rating minor league players (both the 20-80 scale and the projection) to be very interesting, and explains a lot.   

[NeilT]

They are by Luhnow. That's 2 in 3 years. Luhnow likes to get a head-start on the better candidates I guess. Porter was hired in late September.

This probably means absolutely nothing but the team sure hasn't hung its' head or anything the last two nights. I'm not saying they welcomed the change because I don't know that but it seems like they took it in stride and everyone seems to be playing hard and playing with a purpose.

It's tough to know what that clubhouse is like, but I'd guess that the players are out to take care of themselves, regardless of what management is doing. 

[Nate Colbert]

Seems kind of unfair to imply that he was the one feeding shit to the press...

To clarify, that comment was tongue in cheek more than anything else though obviously that didn't come across. That rumor is out there though. I guess I am curious as to why he was the sole coach to get his walking papers. Did Lawless insist on this when offered the manager job? Or did Luhnow believe he was the leaker and canned him as well? Or were there other reasons as to why he was fired?

[NeilT]

To clarify, that comment was tongue in cheek more than anything else though obviously that didn't come across. That rumor is out there though. I guess I am curious as to why he was the sole coach to get his walking papers. Did Lawless insist on this when offered the manager job? Or did Luhnow believe he was the leaker and canned him as well? Or were there other reasons as to why he was fired?

I'd guess hitting and pitching were Luhnow's choice, Trembley was Porter's.

[jbm]

Sorry, I didn't get the sarcasm.  The question as to why he is the only non-Porter to go is interesting; seems like Ferrin should have asked it.  

[cheo25]

Quote from: jbm on Today at 03:39:52 PM
Seems kind of unfair to imply that he was the one feeding shit to the press...

To clarify, that comment was tongue in cheek more than anything else though obviously that didn't come across. That rumor is out there though. I guess I am curious as to why he was the sole coach to get his walking papers. Did Lawless insist on this when offered the manager job? Or did Luhnow believe he was the leaker and canned him as well? Or were there other reasons as to why he was fired?

Trembley was Porter's guy. Trembley managed Porter when Bo was a player in the minors.

[Nate Colbert]

I'd guess hitting and pitching were Luhnow's choice, Trembley was Porter's.

Tarrik Brock is clearly a Porter guy (both were in the Cubs organization at the same time during their playing days and more recently worked together as coaches for the Marlins from 2006-2009). So why wasn't he fired as well?

[Aussie Astro]

Sorry, but the #Astros firing Bo Porter before the end of the season is bush league.

Word.

My memory isn't that great but didn't the same thing happen with Garner, Cooper and Mills?

[NeilT]

Tarrik Brock is clearly a Porter guy (both were in the Cubs organization at the same time during their playing days and more recently worked together as coaches for the Marlins from 2006-2009). So why wasn't he fired as well?

Maybe the front office didn't realized that there's a first base coach?

[Fredia]

interesting. wonder who else is hiding out there?

[Fynn]

Per an article by CJ,
 "Right after Bo Porter was hired I was told he was the only candidate who answered "yes" to the question, " Are you OK with influence from the front office in every day decisions like setting the lineup?" There was a reason he was the only one who said yes, no one wants to manage a major league team where they are told what to do by someone who has never played the game or even done the job."

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/baseball-joe/blog/wanted-major-league-manager-sort-of-090114

Sounds frighteningly like Jerry Jones' influence with the Cowboys coaching staff.  Man, I hope this is not the case.

[juliogotay]

Per an article by CJ,
 "Right after Bo Porter was hired I was told he was the only candidate who answered "yes" to the question, " Are you OK with influence from the front office in every day decisions like setting the lineup?" There was a reason he was the only one who said yes, no one wants to manage a major league team where they are told what to do by someone who has never played the game or even done the job."

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/baseball-joe/blog/wanted-major-league-manager-sort-of-090114

Sounds frighteningly like Jerry Jones' influence with the Cowboys coaching staff.  Man, I hope this is not the case.

This is nothing like Jerry Jones. Luhnow has a "plan". Jerry flies by the seat of his pants. Drayton was more like Jones.

[Fynn]

This is nothing like Jerry Jones. Luhnow has a "plan". Jerry flies by the seat of his pants. Drayton was more like Jones.

Luhnow may have a legitimate plan, but the question is will many managerial candidates be willing to work under these circumstances. 

[juliogotay]

Luhnow may have a legitimate plan, but the question is will many managerial candidates be willing to work under these circumstances. 

There won't be a shortage of candidates.

[Reuben]

There won't be a shortage of candidates.

True. The issue is whether there'll be a shortage of good candidates.

[mikefast]

Luhnow may have a legitimate plan, but the question is will many managerial candidates be willing to work under these circumstances. 

Those are definitely not the circumstances under which the manager is asked to work.

[Jacksonian]

Per an article by CJ,
 "Right after Bo Porter was hired I was told he was the only candidate who answered "yes" to the question, " Are you OK with influence from the front office in every day decisions like setting the lineup?" There was a reason he was the only one who said yes, no one wants to manage a major league team where they are told what to do by someone who has never played the game or even done the job."

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/baseball-joe/blog/wanted-major-league-manager-sort-of-090114

Sounds frighteningly like Jerry Jones' influence with the Cowboys coaching staff.  Man, I hope this is not the case.

That sounds fishy to me.  To know what was asked and what was answers were given means you were very close to the interviews.  I can't imagine anyone that close would spill to anyone.  I'd be willing to bet that his source surmised the question rather than knowing it.

[Reuben]

Those are definitely not the circumstances under which the manager is asked to work.

Mike, I'm curious why there hasn't been more public push-back from the FO against this type of narrative - that you guys only want a puppet who'll make the exact in-game moves you want him to make, that you rely on "computer algorithms" to tell you when to promote prospects, whom to draft, and what cereal to eat for breakfast in the morning, etc. I imagine there's the feeling of not wanting to dignify rumors and hearsay with a response... but it just seems like it's gone beyond that point now, especially if a lot of players and other people in the game are starting to believe it.

And if too many fans are starting to believe it... well, I don't doubt that winning is the #1 thing that will get the fans back, but aren't the Astros concerned that too many fans are going to get pushed past the point of caring, first by the excessive losing, then by the... difficulty in defending things the organization does? Some of us know better than to believe everything Ortiz or Heyman or Olney writes... some don't. And even those with a healthy sense of skepticism start to wonder at what point reams of smoke might indicate at least a bit of fire.

[NeilT]

Some of us know better than to believe everything Ortiz or Heyman or Olney writes...

Wait, doesn't it appear on the internet?  I'm not supposed to believe it?

[cheo25]

Tarrik Brock is clearly a Porter guy (both were in the Cubs organization at the same time during their playing days and more recently worked together as coaches for the Marlins from 2006-2009). So why wasn't he fired as well?

Good question. Maybe Trembley was a media leaker?

[Duman]

Tarrik Brock is clearly a Porter guy (both were in the Cubs organization at the same time during their playing days and more recently worked together as coaches for the Marlins from 2006-2009). So why wasn't he fired as well?

Just because they played together doesn't make him Porter's guy.  He is a player development guy (was OF/baserunning instructor in the Marlins from 2007 to 2013) and is in charge of baserunning.    Can't complain about the baserunning too much.  They are 5th in stolen bases (95) in the league and have the 9th best success rate (77%).  Last year, they were 11th in stolen bases (110) and 27th in SB % (64%). The Astros committed 76 Tootblan (thrown out on the bases like a nincompoop) in 2013.  That was 2nd most in the league.  They have cut that down significantly this year. 

In 2013 Altuve had 16 (leading all the AL), Villar had 9, Barnes, Carter & Dominguez added 6 each and Pena, Peredes and Crowe addded 5 each. 
In 2014 Altuve has 11, Fowler 8, Springer 6, Marisnick & Villar 4 each, Dominguez 3, Gonzalez & Kraus 2 each and Grossman, Castro, Singleton, Carter & Presley with one each.  They are at 45 so far this year.  Vast improvement. 

Maybe that is why Brock is still around.  He is doing his job.

[David in Jackson]

Just because they played together doesn't make him Porter's guy.  He is a player development guy (was OF/baserunning instructor in the Marlins from 2007 to 2013) and is in charge of baserunning.    Can't complain about the baserunning too much.  They are 5th in stolen bases (95) in the league and have the 9th best success rate (77%).  Last year, they were 11th in stolen bases (110) and 27th in SB % (64%). The Astros committed 76 Tootblan (thrown out on the bases like a nincompoop) in 2013.  That was 2nd most in the league.  They have cut that down significantly this year. 

In 2013 Altuve had 16 (leading all the AL), Villar had 9, Barnes, Carter & Dominguez added 6 each and Pena, Peredes and Crowe addded 5 each. 
In 2014 Altuve has 11, Fowler 8, Springer 6, Marisnick & Villar 4 each, Dominguez 3, Gonzalez & Kraus 2 each and Grossman, Castro, Singleton, Carter & Presley with one each.  They are at 45 so far this year.  Vast improvement. 

Maybe that is why Brock is still around.  He is doing his job.

Thanks - interesting facts I didn't know.

[juliogotay]

Is Thrown Out On The Bases Like A Nincompoop one of those new-age stats?

[geezerdonk]

Its called A Carlos Lee (ACL).

[BizidyDizidy]

At least the Astros were doing the firing - Ron Washington resigns:

http://trsullivan.mlblogs.com/2014/09/05/ron-washington-resigns/

[juliogotay]

Bogar could be off of the table. Named interim Rangers manager has Washington has resigned for "personal matters".

[Jacksonian]

Is Thrown Out On The Bases Like A Nincompoop one of those new-age stats?

I think it was just renamed from "What the fuck were you thinking!?"

[juliogotay]

Its called A Carlos Lee (ACL).

I don't remember Lee being a bad baserunner. Slow but was he a nincompoop?

[NeilT]

Is Thrown Out On The Bases Like A Nincompoop one of those new-age stats?

I googled it, and there are even on-line trackers.

[geezerdonk]

Maybe not a nincompoop. Maybe a poor evaluator of his own speed.

[Limey]

Maybe not a nincompoop. Maybe a poor evaluator of his own speed.

I watched him run a sprint at Kissimmee one year.  One YEAR.

[Duman]

Is Thrown Out On The Bases Like A Nincompoop one of those new-age stats?

A guy came up with it because there was no stat for bad base running decisions.  Started a twitter feed & a blog and it has taken off.  Here is how he defines a TOOTBLAN:  

"In short, it is any out a runner makes on the basepaths while attempting to take an extra base - whether advancing from second to third on a ground out (with no runner on first); attempting to stretch a single into a double, a double into a triple, and so on; or getting thrown out while advancing on a flyball. It also applies to base runners who are picked off or who are doubled out on a line drive." …

So a non-forced out on the bases.  For example here is the break down of Altuve's 11 TOOTBLANs this year:

Picked off -3
Caught stealing by pitcher (really he was picked off but is thrown out a the next base) - 2
taking an extra base -3
Missing a base - 1
Doubled off - 1
Running into a fielders choice - 1

[Duman]

At least the Astros were doing the firing - Ron Washington resigns:

http://trsullivan.mlblogs.com/2014/09/05/ron-washington-resigns/

Sounds like Washington likely relapsed.  I wish him the best in battling that beast if that is indeed the case.

[NeilT]

Maybe not a nincompoop. Maybe a poor evaluator of his own speed.

That's an interesting comment.  In 2008, Lee stole base 4 times, and was caught stealing once.  Michael Bourn stole 41 bases and was caught stealing 10 times.  They were exactly the same baserunner. Hunter Pence, Miguel Tejada, and Brad Ausmus all had worse caught stealing ratios than Lee, and Kaz Matsui was the same.  Lance Berkman looks like the best on the team with 4 CS on 22 attempts. 

In 2007 Lee was far worse, leading the team w/ 5 CS for 10 steals, but Pence was 5 for 11, Berkman 7 for 3, Bruntlett 6 for 3, and Adam Everett 4 for 2.  The best was Brad Ausmus at 6 for 1, then Chris Burke at 9 for 3.  The worst was Craig Biggio at 4 for 3.

It looked like at his best Bourn was very good and so was Kaz Matsui.  The Astros best recent year on the basepaths was 2012 when Altuve Schafer and Bogusevic combined for 75 steals, but Lee was 0 for 0.  Pence didn't start his career as a good baserunner but by 2010 was 18 for 9.  Lee was about as good as Berkman after Berkman's knee injury, but never had a lot of attempts, which probably showed good evaluation of his own speed.  Maybe you mean he got caught a lot trying to leg out triples? 

[NeilT]

I was only looking at Lee's Astro years, but if you go pre-Astros, he was a really good baserunner, with only one bad year (2002).  His best year, 2006, he stole 19 with 2 CS.

[Ron Brand]

Sounds like Washington likely relapsed.  I wish him the best in battling that beast if that is indeed the case.

Daniels says it isn't drug related.

[Bench]

Daniels says it isn't drug related.

That's good to hear.  Whatever it is, I hope he's alright.

[mikefast]

I imagine there's the feeling of not wanting to dignify rumors and hearsay with a response...

Definitely part of it.  As my mom says, paper lies still and lets people write whatever they want on it.

but it just seems like it's gone beyond that point now, especially if a lot of players and other people in the game are starting to believe it.

I'm not sure that's true.  What the media says players and agents and other front offices are saying and what the vast majority of players/agents/executives thinks is not necessarily the same thing.  Those who don't have a sensational opinion aren't interesting for anyone to quote.

And if too many fans are starting to believe it... well, I don't doubt that winning is the #1 thing that will get the fans back, but aren't the Astros concerned that too many fans are going to get pushed past the point of caring, first by the excessive losing, then by the... difficulty in defending things the organization does? Some of us know better than to believe everything Ortiz or Heyman or Olney writes... some don't. And even those with a healthy sense of skepticism start to wonder at what point reams of smoke might indicate at least a bit of fire.

I believe that many of the fans are starting to believe it, but I honestly don't know how to change that other than that over time the truth will come out.  Not to say that PR strategies can't be changed, but I don't really think that's what is behind most of the criticism.  The Astros serve as a convenient vessel for caricature both by people who want to hurl thoughtless polemic at the new guard in baseball and by people who have legitimate concerns about the changes taking place in baseball, neither of which requires anyone to really understand what the Astros are or are not doing.

And to the extent that there are specific concerns about what Bo Porter did or how he was treated, it's not appropriate for Astros management to respond to those concerns publicly.

[Ron Brand]

Mike, I just wish the Astros did a better job of getting out in front of these things with good, consistent PR work.

[NeilT]

Mike, I just wish the Astros did a better job of getting out in front of these things with good, consistent PR work.

That's a no win game.

[chuck]

That's a no win game.

Only if they hire Lucas Harrell.

[Ebby Calvin]

Definitely part of it.  As my mom says, paper lies still and lets people write whatever they want on it.

I'm not sure that's true.  What the media says players and agents and other front offices are saying and what the vast majority of players/agents/executives thinks is not necessarily the same thing.  Those who don't have a sensational opinion aren't interesting for anyone to quote.

I believe that many of the fans are starting to believe it, but I honestly don't know how to change that other than that over time the truth will come out.  Not to say that PR strategies can't be changed, but I don't really think that's what is behind most of the criticism.  The Astros serve as a convenient vessel for caricature both by people who want to hurl thoughtless polemic at the new guard in baseball and by people who have legitimate concerns about the changes taking place in baseball, neither of which requires anyone to really understand what the Astros are or are not doing.

And to the extent that there are specific concerns about what Bo Porter did or how he was treated, it's not appropriate for Astros management to respond to those concerns publicly.

Intentional or not, you just PR'ed one fan back from the brink.
Carry on.  Thanks for posting.

[Fynn]

Intentional or not, you just PR'ed one fan back from the brink.
Carry on.  Thanks for posting.

+1

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

The Astros serve as a convenient vessel for caricature both by people who want to hurl thoughtless polemic at the new guard in baseball and by people who have legitimate concerns about the changes taking place in baseball, neither of which requires anyone to really understand what the Astros are or are not doing.

Mike, thank you so much for your interaction. I'm not trying to be argumentative and am not looking for a reply but losing at a record pace is the reason the Astros are mocked, that is what makes it so convenient. Winning and losing are easy to understand. I hope the plan continues to work well because winning is the only thing that will kill the punch-line.

[HudsonHawk]

Mike, thank you so much for your interaction. I'm not trying to be argumentative and am not looking for a reply but losing at a record pace is the reason the Astros are mocked, that is what makes it so convenient. Winning and losing are easy to understand. I hope the plan continues to work well because winning is the only thing that will kill the punch-line.

Not only is winning and losing easy to understand, at the end the day it's also the only thing that matters.  You are spot on: the Astros are mocked because they've put a historically crap product out the last few years, irrespective of how smart management thinks it is. Improving the product you offer the public is what will change that, not all the PR in the world.

[mikefast]

Mike, thank you so much for your interaction. I'm not trying to be argumentative and am not looking for a reply but losing at a record pace is the reason the Astros are mocked, that is what makes it so convenient. Winning and losing are easy to understand. I hope the plan continues to work well because winning is the only thing that will kill the punch-line.

Oh, believe me, we fully understand that. I don't think that's the sum total of what's going on, but it's certainly a huge part of it.

[Dark Star]

Oh, believe me, we fully understand that. I don't think that's the sum total of what's going on, but it's certainly a huge part of it.

Well, then. What else is it that is going on?

BTW, for a decent percentage of us, winning would be great, but if it is being done without us being able to watch it on the television, it doesn't really matter.

[mikefast]

BTW, for a decent percentage of us, winning would be great, but if it is being done without us being able to watch it on the television, it doesn't really matter.

Of course.  I live in Kingwood, where Comcast isn't even an option.  There is no way for anyone to see the Astros on TV, and the radio signal is spotty after dark.  It's a royal pain.

[juliogotay]

Of course.  I live in Kingwood, where Comcast isn't even an option.  There is no way for anyone to see the Astros on TV, and the radio signal is spotty after dark.  It's a royal pain.

But that's changing next year. Right?

[Navin R Johnson]

Of course.  I live in Kingwood, where Comcast isn't even an option.  There is no way for anyone to see the Astros on TV, and the radio signal is spotty after dark.  It's a royal pain.

Oh there is a way, it just requires an internet connection, google chrome and AdBlock Plus.

At least that is the rumor I heard.

[mikefast]

But that's changing next year. Right?

I would never presume to know what the bankruptcy court is going to do before they do it, but I certainly very much hope so.

[Nate Colbert]

Chron criticism continues: CC Hooks manager Keith Bodie let go by the Astros and Drellich predictably bitching about it.

Letting Keith Bodie go after Corpus franchise record 83 wins in 2013 and 16 yrs w/org isn’t the kind of move that buys a lot of good will.

What he doesn't say is that Bodie spent most of those years in the organization from 1974-1988. It was Luhnow & Co. who brought Bodie back into the organization when they hired him to manage CC beginning in 2012. But acknowledging that would be way too inconvenient.

[juliogotay]

Chron criticism continues: CC Hooks manager Keith Bodie let go by the Astros and Drellich predictably bitching about it.

What he doesn't say is that Bodie spent most of those years in the organization from 1974-1988. It was Luhnow & Co. who brought Bodie back into the organization when they hired him to manage CC beginning in 2012. But acknowledging that would be way too inconvenient.

Did you see the "sniping" going back-n-forth between Keith Law and Drellich on twitter on the linked post? I looked at caller.com (Corpus Christi to see their take but it is all behind a paywall but the headline is released for philosophical differences.

[Duman]

I don't get the reason for the ire.  Aren't contracts of player dev staff year to year?  There are managerial changes at every level every year.  TIt often has little to do with wins and losses but with player development. 

I expect Rodney Linares to be in CC next year, Lopez moves up to Lancaster and Bonifay goes to QC.  Sutil will be in Gville next year. 

BTW, since when is a 3 year manager a long time manager?  Looks like overreaction to me. 

[chuck]

At least they waited until the season was over.

[Bench]

At least they waited until the season was over.

That's only because there weren't any August call-ups to micromanage.

[juliogotay]

I don't get the reason for the ire.  Aren't contracts of player dev staff year to year?  There are managerial changes at every level every year.  TIt often has little to do with wins and losses but with player development. 

I expect Rodney Linares to be in CC next year, Lopez moves up to Lancaster and Bonifay goes to QC.  Sutil will be in Gville next year. 

BTW, since when is a 3 year manager a long time manager?  Looks like overreaction to me. 

There is a storyline here that lazy reporters want to perpetuate. It is easier to ride the trend than to buck it. Reporting is passe', commentary is where it's at.
There also may be bad relations between the Astros and Chronicle reporters and if there is it will work its' way down the chain to outposts such as Corpus.

[das]

Bodie let go down in Corpus due to "philosophical reasons". I wonder what that means.

[Reuben]

I wonder if Ed Romero is in line for a promotion. He's had a ton of success in Tri-City without much high-pedigree talent, and seems to be very popular with players.

[Duman]

Great article by Jayne @ WhatTheHeckBobby on the Bodie situation.

[jbm]

I have no opinion on the Bodie matter, but to claim it as an "outrage du jour" is similar to creating a narrative she decries against. Lots of people feel like they need to choose sides, and many who have chosen the Luhnow side seem compelled to create a narrative that numerous media members are out to get Luhnow.  Its starting to border on paranoia. 

[juliogotay]

Why do we fans and even the media take sides when we don't have all the facts?

[Nate in IA]

Why do we fans and even the media take sides when we don't have all the facts?

Cause it's fun?

[NeilT]

Cause it's fun?

Why does love have to be so sad?

[Lefty]

Why do we fans and even the media take sides when we don't have all the facts?

jdjo gotta eat.

[Aussie Astro]

I have no opinion on the Bodie matter, but to claim it as an "outrage du jour" is similar to creating a narrative she decries against. Lots of people feel like they need to choose sides, and many who have chosen the Luhnow side seem compelled to create a narrative that numerous media members are out to get Luhnow.  Its starting to border on paranoia. 

It is not paranoia if they are really out to get you.

[Dark Star]

Burt Hooton

[HudsonHawk]

Why do we fans and even the media take sides when we don't have all the facts?

Why do you take sides at all?

[JimR]

It would be difficult for me to work for a guy like Luhnow, I hate tanking on purpose, it belittles the notion of professional competition and renders an exhibition not too far removed from pro wrestling in terms of sports entertainment. But his method is approved by the owner, possible dictated. However, I think Porter should not have usurped the chain of command and whined to Crane. That is asking to get fired.

no one is "tanking on purpose."

[Limey]

Bodie let go down in Corpus due to "philosophical reasons". I wonder what that means.

He didn't believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses.

[NeilT]

He didn't believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses.

He's not a baseball guy then.

[Fredia]

ok i have to know who was being kissed?

[NeilT]

ok i have to know who was being kissed?

We don't know.  We only know that Crash Davis held that up as something in which to believe.

[BudGirl]

We don't know.  We only know that Crash Davis held that up as something in which to believe.

Crash was a smart man.

[HudsonHawk]

We don't know.  We only know that Crash Davis held that up as something in which to believe.

Along with high fiber, good scotch and that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, over-rated crap.

[MusicMan]

Along with high fiber, good scotch and that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, over-rated crap.

And that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

no one is "tanking on purpose."

That was hyperbole. For two years there was no effort made to win in the now. That was part of the plan, sacrifice an undetermined but probably mediocre present for a potentially promising future.

[MRaup]

That was hyperbole. For two years there was no effort made to win in the now. That was part of the plan, sacrifice an undetermined but probably mediocre present for a potentially promising future.

What exactly were you expecting a team with almost zero promising prospects and planning to have a low payroll anyway to do?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

What exactly were you expecting a team with almost zero promising prospects and planning to have a low payroll anyway to do?

Magic tricks!

[Fredia]

smoke and mirrors and a slip and slide on tals hill

[NeilT]

What exactly were you expecting a team with almost zero promising prospects and planning to have a low payroll anyway to do?

The Hokey-Pokey.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Magic tricks!

ILLUSIONS!

[Lefty]

ILLUSIONS!

Tricks are something a whore does for money.

[Jose Cruz III]

I was only looking at Lee's Astro years, but if you go pre-Astros, he was a really good baserunner, with only one bad year (2002).  His best year, 2006, he stole 19 with 2 CS.

That being said, A big ol' boy like Lee probably wasn't signed for his base stealing and defense. He did the mashing he was signed to do. And when he couldn't anymore he netted us Matty D.

[MRaup]

Tricks are something a whore does for money.

... or candy!

[Ty in Tampa]

ILLUSIONS!

Anything is possible in the World of Magic!

[MusicMan]

Tricks are something a whore does for money.

Illusions, Big Bird.

[Fredia]

read several things they are hunting someone with  big league experience ,,might not be a bad idea..still mulling it over in my head

[juliogotay]

Porter is in the studio at MLBNetwork sitting at the desk.