The last three starting pitching performances

[Jacksonian]

The last 3 nights starting pitching efforts made me think about the young guys and development.  From oldest to youngest here's a list of the younger pitchers, still in the system, from the majors to AA who were expected to eat a lot of innings, especially out of the rotation, and their ages.

David Martinez, AA, 8/4/87
Dallas Keuchel, MLB, 1/1/88
Brad Peacock, MLB, 2/2/88
Alex White, 60-day DL, 8/29/88
Wojo, AAA, 12/21/88
Bobby Doran, AAA, 3/21/89
Brett Oberholtzer, MLB, 7/1/89
Ross Seaton, AA, 9/18/89
Jake Buchanan, AAA, 9/24/89
David Rollins, AA, 12/21/89
Jarred Cosart, MLB, 5/25/90
Nick Tropeano, AA, 8/27/90
Jordan Lyles, MLB, 10/19/90
Ruben Alaniz, AA, 6/14/91
Folty, AA, 10/7/91

I did not include Cisnero and Clemens because of their major league use.  If they're included Cisnero is in the middle and Clemens is closer to the top of this list.

[roadrunner]

What exactly was the point of rushing Lyles through the system so quickly?  I know he had good minor league numbers, but it's not like he was Jose Fernandez.

[Jacksonian]

Oh, and Appel, low-A, 7/15/91.

[Jacksonian]

What exactly was the point of rushing Lyles through the system so quickly?  I know he had good minor league numbers, but it's not like he was Jose Fernandez.

Between AA, AAA, and MLB Lyles best season for batting average against was 2010 at AAA with a .267.  In short it doesn't appear he's ever learned to get batters out efficiently at the higher levels.

[jbm]

IMO, the most positive thing in the Luhnow regime is the development of players in the minors, primarily pitchers at the AA and AAA level (many of the ones on your list).  It may well be happening throughout, but I only get to see the upper minors.  I get the impression that they will be able to roll out bottom of the rotation starters for a long time.  Hopefully, that success will extend to top of the rotation guys as well.

[das]

Between AA, AAA, and MLB Lyles best season for batting average against was 2010 at AAA with a .267.  In short it doesn't appear he's ever learned to get batters out efficiently at the higher levels.

He's been up for such a (relatively) long time.  I wonder if it makes sense to drop him to AAA for the rest of the year so he can work on that very thing out of the limelight.

[Jacksonian]

He's been up for such a (relatively) long time.  I wonder if it makes sense to drop him to AAA for the rest of the year so he can work on that very thing out of the limelight.

I read somewhere they're going to a 6-man rotation now.  Seems to me a possible precursor to making changes to the rotation.

[jaklewein]

He's been up for such a (relatively) long time.  I wonder if it makes sense to drop him to AAA for the rest of the year so he can work on that very thing out of the limelight.

I've watched a few of Lyles most recent starts (missed last night though).  I'll be upfront in saying I wouldn't put a lot of weight on my observations, but it seems his downfall is simply missing on location too often.  Against Toronto a couple starts back he was getting batter 0-2 or 1-2 and then throwing a change up or fastball down the middle of the plate....

[Reuben]

I've watched a few of Lyles most recent starts (missed last night though).  I'll be upfront in saying I wouldn't put a lot of weight on my observations, but it seems his downfall is simply missing on location too often.  Against Toronto a couple starts back he was getting batter 0-2 or 1-2 and then throwing a change up or fastball down the middle of the plate....

Yeah, I'd be very interested to read what JimR or Noe or any of our other pitching gurus here think about Lyles at this point. He just gives up way too many hits. Ashby said repeatedly last night how he doesn't understand why a guy with Lyles' stuff gets hit so much. Me, I have no clue. In 2011, he was extremely young and clearly had been rushed by Wade in an effort to show some progress from the rebuild, I suppose. Last year, he would do fine and then hit a wall in the 5th inning a lot. This year, more Oswalt innings but they seem to happen at any point, early in the game, middle, late.

At one point a month or so ago he'd gotten his ERA down to 3.20ish, and even that was skewed by one brutal, short start vs. Dallas. I thought he looked ready to assume the mantle of staff ace from Bud. Now it looks like he needs some time in the pen or OKC.

[Mr. Happy]

Yeah, I'd be very interested to read what JimR or Noe or any of our other pitching gurus here think about Lyles at this point. He just gives up way too many hits. Ashby said repeatedly last night how he doesn't understand why a guy with Lyles' stuff gets hit so much. Me, I have no clue. In 2011, he was extremely young and clearly had been rushed by Wade in an effort to show some progress from the rebuild, I suppose. Last year, he would do fine and then hit a wall in the 5th inning a lot. This year, more Oswalt innings but they seem to happen at any point, early in the game, middle, late.

At one point a month or so ago he'd gotten his ERA down to 3.20ish, and even that was skewed by one brutal, short start vs. Dallas. I thought he looked ready to assume the mantle of staff ace from Bud. Now it looks like he needs some time in the pen or OKC.

FWIW, Lyles has had problems getting out lefties, which is a combination of poor location and no answer/out pitch for them. He's got good stuff, but Ashby is right: he's getting shelled. He had location problems last night for all hitters.

[Jacksonian]

FWIW, Lyles has had problems getting out lefties, which is a combination of poor location and no answer/out pitch for them. He's got good stuff, but Ashby is right: he's getting shelled. He had location problems last night for all hitters.

It's not lefties that's the problem.  It's all batters.  This season lefties are hitting .291 against him.  Righties are hitting an even worse .295.  When I've been able to watch him pitch the thing that's crossed my mind is everything that gets hit is up and that he has trouble staying down in the zone.

[Mr. Happy]

It's not lefties that's the problem.  It's all batters.  This season lefties are hitting .291 against him.  Righties are hitting an even worse .295.  When I've been able to watch him pitch the thing that's crossed my mind is everything that gets hit is up and that he has trouble staying down in the zone.

You're right. He had awful splits last season. I have just watched him struggle against lefties, but I didn't realize that he was that bad against righties. In my opinion, I'd send him down for the rest of the minor league season and then give him the winter off to do a personal gut check, i.e., I wouldn't bring him back up in September.

[jbm]

It's not lefties that's the problem.  It's all batters.  This season lefties are hitting .291 against him.  Righties are hitting an even worse .295.  When I've been able to watch him pitch the thing that's crossed my mind is everything that gets hit is up and that he has trouble staying down in the zone.

That was certainly the story last night.  Even the first two innings, everything was up.  I wonder if the same issue resulting in keeping the ball up might also account for some of the hanging sliders, slip-out curves and flat two-seamers.

I think Ashby's point about whether he should use his four seamer or a two-seamer as a foundation was insightful.  The appraoch often shifts mid-game.  When calling the game, it looks like Castro struggles with that issue also.

The guy is certainly struggling, but there is too much there for him not to eventually figure it out.  That might just be more faith than sense on my part though. 

[juliogotay]

I think he'll figure it out, too. But I thought he had figured it out earlier this year when he was so good for 5 or 6 starts. He's done it before, he can do it again.