Author Topic: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus  (Read 21317 times)

strosrays

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Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« on: July 09, 2012, 12:44:30 am »
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 12:58:39 am »
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

I read it immediately and it sums up how I feel after today's game. It's like I've been somewhat in denial about how bad this team is right now. It's like the old SNL bit featuring Dan Aykroyd as Leonard Pinth-Garnell "Bad Theater." This team is deliciously dreadful.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 08:05:08 am »
I realize I'm in the distinct minority (might be the only one), but I still don't think this club is as bad as their record.  Well, let me paraphrase that and say that it wouldn't shock me at all to see this same cast of characters with a better record.

They have got losing down pat.  You can see the same patterns repeated game after game.  Glimpses of progress appear and then fade quickly away.  I recorded the game yesterday, and once Wright opened the inning with a walk, I knew I had seen this ending before and hit the fast forward button hard until it reached its highest level.  I'm a firm believer that those patterns can be broken, although it is disturbing that so little progress is being made in that direction. 

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 08:13:13 am »
For me, the issue is pitching.  If the bullpen hadn't imploded over the last month, the record would be better.

Having said that, other than Lowrie and Castro (and I realize I'm in the minority about him) the rest of the position players are fungible.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 08:25:07 am »
The only one I'm "attached" to is Bogusevic.  But its not a "Brad Ausmus attached."  And I think my attachment gives you guys something to focus.

To me, you have to know what this team is.  Most of us know it and that is why we were enjoying the start of the season.  I would be surprised if any of us thought this team was going to make the playoffs.  It was enjoying these guys in the highlight of their careers.

Personally, I was hoping they would be better but if that means Luhnow and Co. get another #1 pick so be it.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 08:57:53 am »
For me, the issue is pitching.  If the bullpen hadn't imploded over the last month, the record would be better.

Having said that, other than Lowrie and Castro (and I realize I'm in the minority about him) the rest of the position players are fungible.

Altuve?


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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 09:01:33 am »

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 10:28:37 am »
wow never heard it put that way. you dont see him on a path of improvement
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 10:56:38 am »
Nope.  He's a novelty.

If being roughly equal to Ian Kinsler is a "novelty", sign me up for a bunch of those novelties.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2012, 10:59:57 am »
Having said that, other than Lowrie and Castro (and I realize I'm in the minority about him) the rest of the position players are fungible.

Other than Altuve, I agree with you an your use of the word "fungible".
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2012, 11:05:58 am »
I don't know what any of this has to do with mushrooms.
E come vivo? Vivo.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2012, 11:23:50 am »
I don't know what any of this has to do with mushrooms.

Only that jbm seems to have been eating some.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 11:32:58 am »
Nope.  He's a novelty.

Craig Biggio's stats:
age 22 (50 games) - .211/.254/.350/.603
age 23 (134 games) - .257/.336/.402/.738
obviously, he was playing catcher in those days

Joe Morgan:
age 21 (157 games) - .271/.373/.418/.791
age 22 (122 games) - .285/.410/.391/.801

Jose Altuve:
age 21 (57 games) - .276/.297/.357/.654
age 22 (79 games) - .303/.344/.438/.783


Not saying Altuve will be a HoEer, but calling him a novelty at this point is a little degrading.  He's performed. 

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2012, 12:12:34 pm »
Craig Biggio's stats:
age 22 (50 games) - .211/.254/.350/.603
age 23 (134 games) - .257/.336/.402/.738
obviously, he was playing catcher in those days

Joe Morgan:
age 21 (157 games) - .271/.373/.418/.791
age 22 (122 games) - .285/.410/.391/.801

Jose Altuve:
age 21 (57 games) - .276/.297/.357/.654
age 22 (79 games) - .303/.344/.438/.783


Not saying Altuve will be a HoEer, but calling him a novelty at this point is a little degrading.  He's performed. 

I do absolutely understand the numbers, but I just don't care for him as a player.  Your mileage may vary.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2012, 12:16:37 pm »
I do absolutely understand the numbers, but I just don't care for him as a player.  Your mileage may vary.

AZ: Is it his fielding? If so, I've got some problems with his erratic play in the field and propensity for mental mistakes that occasionally cost us runs, as what happened recently in Pittsburgh.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2012, 12:28:38 pm »
AZ: Is it his fielding? If so, I've got some problems with his erratic play in the field and propensity for mental mistakes that occasionally cost us runs, as what happened recently in Pittsburgh.

That's a huge piece of it, yes.  Defense is erratic, doesn't seem to be blessed with a lot of "situational awareness", and despite his good start offensively, doesn't get on base at a high enough rate.

He's an okay player, and maybe the second best player on this team, but damning...faint praise...something.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2012, 12:43:15 pm »
That's a huge piece of it, yes.  Defense is erratic, doesn't seem to be blessed with a lot of "situational awareness", and despite his good start offensively, doesn't get on base at a high enough rate.

He's an okay player, and maybe the second best player on this team, but damning...faint praise...something.
He's 22 and spent about 40 games above A-ball before being turbo-rushed to the majors last year. I think he deserves a little more time to see if he can iron out his flaws. By all accounts, he's always been a hard worker and an intelligent kid, so I'm optimistic that he'll get better. It's unfortunate that he's already got some "face-of-the-franchise" pressure due to the dearth of talent on the roster, the curiosity factor, and being voted to the All-Star team so soon. He's definitely looked like its getting to him lately.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2012, 12:50:02 pm »
I think he tried to become more disciplined, but umps were convinced he is 6'3" so he just shrugged his shoulders, said fuck it in spanish and started hacking away again.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2012, 12:51:03 pm »
That's a huge piece of it, yes.  Defense is erratic, doesn't seem to be blessed with a lot of "situational awareness", and despite his good start offensively, doesn't get on base at a high enough rate.

He's an okay player, and maybe the second best player on this team, but damning...faint praise...something.

I think he gets too much flack from people.  The guy saw 32 games in the field at AA, only 25 of which were at second.  Things move faster at each level and this guy basically skipped 2 of them.   Plus he's on a team where veteran guidance doesn't exist.  Shocker he's not Ozzie Smith out the gate.  




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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2012, 12:56:15 pm »
He's 22 and spent about 40 games above A-ball before being turbo-rushed to the majors last year. I think he deserves a little more time to see if he can iron out his flaws. By all accounts, he's always been a hard worker and an intelligent kid, so I'm optimistic that he'll get better. It's unfortunate that he's already got some "face-of-the-franchise" pressure due to the dearth of talent on the roster, the curiosity factor, and being voted to the All-Star team so soon. He's definitely looked like its getting to him lately.

What do you see his ceiling being?  I'm asking because I'm generally curious.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2012, 12:58:39 pm »
What do you see his ceiling being?  I'm asking because I'm generally curious.

Myself, I see a guy who can be a quality starter on a playoff team, even an occasional all-star.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2012, 01:00:49 pm »
One reason for optimism is the minor leagues are now flowing with talent that should be arriving year after year.

Just a quick look starting pitching (probably missed a few):
Keuchel (ready), Musick(1 year), Cisnero(1 year), Oberholtzer(1 year)
Seaton(1-2 years), Cosart (1-2 years), Foltynewicz(2 years), Tropeano(2 years),
Doran(2 years), Alaniz(2-3 years), Velasquez(3 years)
McCullers (3-4 years), Brady Rodgers(3-4 years), Juri Perez (3-4 years), Houser(3-4 years), Michael Feliz(4 years)

If 25% of these guys succeed they are looking at one a year (with the expectation that more will be added that fit within 4 years)

This is a whole heck of a lot better than when it was Lyles and ummm well ummmm.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 01:02:44 pm by pots »

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2012, 01:02:52 pm »
What do you see his ceiling being?  I'm asking because I'm generally curious.
His ceiling, ie. best-case scenario? A .330 hitter with a .380ish OBP, 40 doubles, 10-15 HR, 20-30 SB a year, and good defense at 2B. How likely is he to reach that? I have no idea, nor am I pretending that he hasn't had some glaring fuck-up moments.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2012, 01:05:10 pm »
One reason for optimism is the minor leagues are now flowing with talent that should be arriving year after year.

Just a quick look starting pitching (probably missed a few):
Keuchel (ready), Musick(1 year), Cisnero(1 year), Oberholtzer(1 year)
Seaton(1-2 years), Cosart (1-2 years), Foltynewicz(2 years), Tropeano(2 years),
Doran(2 years), Alaniz(2-3 years), Velasquez(3 years)
McCullers (3-4 years), Brady Rodgers(3-4 years), Juri Perez (3-4 years), Houser(3-4 years), Michael Feliz(4 years)

If 25% of these guys succeed they are looking at one a year (with the expectation that more will be added that fit within 4 years)

This is a whole heck of a lot better than when it was Lyles and ummm well ummmm.


No question they're in a better place with regard to what's in the pipeline. The tough part is enduring what's with the big club right now.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2012, 01:05:12 pm »
His ceiling, ie. best-case scenario? A .330 hitter with a .380ish OBP, 40 doubles, 10-15 HR, 20-30 SB a year, and good defense at 2B. How likely is he to reach that? I have no idea, nor am I pretending that he hasn't had some glaring fuck-up moments.

I just don't have the same optimism.  Especially in the field.

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Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2012, 01:09:01 pm »
What do you see his ceiling being? 

Lower than everybody else's.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2012, 01:10:34 pm »
No question they're in a better place with regard to what's in the pipeline. The tough part is enduring what's with the big club right now.

True but at least there are names to hang your hat of optimism on.  

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2012, 01:34:24 pm »
I just don't have the same optimism.  Especially in the field.
I have a nagging feeling that Luhnow and co. might agree more with your overall assessment... the fact that Paredes has played only 2B at OKC this year, along with the occasional trade-rumor chatter about Lowrie and Altuve "basically being off-limits" (but not completely), makes me think they are dangling him to see what they could get.

I just feel like the potential is there for him to improve. Do you feel like his size or arm are inadequate for fielding his position, or just his mental aptitude and athleticism/coordination are lacking?
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2012, 01:47:52 pm »
Taking what amounts to be a snapshot within a guy's career and extrapolating forward is difficult.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2012, 01:58:17 pm »
Taking what amounts to be a snapshot within a guy's career and extrapolating forward is difficult.

It's a tall task.  You don't want to give him short shrift.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2012, 01:59:42 pm »
It's a tall task.  You don't want to give him short shrift.

What with the miniscule sample size and all.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2012, 02:00:18 pm »
I have a nagging feeling that Luhnow and co. might agree more with your overall assessment... the fact that Paredes has played only 2B at OKC this year, along with the occasional trade-rumor chatter about Lowrie and Altuve "basically being off-limits" (but not completely), makes me think they are dangling him to see what they could get.

I just feel like the potential is there for him to improve. Do you feel like his size or arm are inadequate for fielding his position, or just his mental aptitude and athleticism/coordination are lacking?

I'll be honest; his size bothers me a little bit, but I can get past it if he significantly improves the mental aspect of his game, tightens up on the routine plays (his range is plus right now) and develops a higher OBP. For a guy his size, in my opinion, OBP is going to be an important statistic for him, probably more so than BA. It wouldn't surprise me if the Astros moved Altuve if they could get a truckload of prospects, at least one of which was big-league-ready.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2012, 02:17:26 pm »
I just don't have the same optimism.  Especially in the field.

The same pessimism you have for Altuve I have for Castro.  Castro is as fungible as anyone, IMO.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2012, 02:21:44 pm »
They are all fungible from the perspective that you cannot sit there and think "this guy HAS TO BE ON THE TEAM when they're competing again".
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2012, 02:29:52 pm »
What do you see his ceiling being?  I'm asking because I'm generally curious.

For me, I've been thinking that Tony Gwynn is his ceiling, offensively. Good BA, OBP maybe 50 points above that, decent extra base totals with 5-10 homers mixed in, fair number of steals (but gets caught at a pretty high clip).

Defensively, I'm not sure.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2012, 02:31:52 pm »
They are all fungible from the perspective that you cannot sit there and think "this guy HAS TO BE ON THE TEAM when they're competing again".

Well of course.  Babe Ruth was fungible from that perspective.  But we're talking about young guys, who you want as part of the building block.  No one on the team right now is a guy you "build around".
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2012, 02:34:36 pm »
They are all fungible from the perspective that you cannot sit there and think "this guy HAS TO BE ON THE TEAM CATCHING FOR THE ROYALS when they're competing again".
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2012, 02:39:15 pm »
No one on the team right now is a guy you "build around".

The simple fact of this team.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2012, 02:44:19 pm »
Well of course.  Babe Ruth was fungible from that perspective.  But we're talking about young guys, who you want as part of the building block.  No one on the team right now is a guy you "build around".

Snyder's so slow you might have to build around him.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2012, 02:46:54 pm »
Damn, y'all are negative.  None of these guys can be part of a competitive team?

What exactly is a guy "you build around" and do you have to wait on whomever meets that criteria before you start assembling players?

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2012, 02:57:56 pm »
Damn, y'all are negative.  None of these guys can be part of a competitive team?

What exactly is a guy "you build around" and do you have to wait on whomever meets that criteria before you start assembling players?

Troy Tulowitski is a guy you "build around".  Joey Votto is a guy you "build around".  Albert Pujols was a guy you "build around".  Jimmy Rollins was a guy you "build around".  Hell, even Michael Bourn was a guy you "build around".  No one on the team currently fits that mold.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2012, 03:08:01 pm »
Damn, y'all are negative.  None of these guys can be part of a competitive team?

What exactly is a guy "you build around" and do you have to wait on whomever meets that criteria before you start assembling players?

I prefer to regard it as honest, not negative. I'm pretty sure that only Altuve and Lowrie could be part of a really competitive club, and I'm not positive on either of them.

As far as your question about a player to build around, how long a list do you want? A young A-Rod. Tulowitski. Votto. Pujols. A young Jeter. Heyward. Trout. Harper. McCutcheon. Hamilton. Mauer. I could go on.

And to answer your last question, you obviously can't wait on finding that player "to build around;" you have to field the most competitive club you can by constantly assembling the best players long term you can find. I think that is what Luhnow is doing, what Crane and Postolous are committed to doing and what will continue to be done.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2012, 03:47:13 pm »
I prefer to regard it as honest, not negative. I'm pretty sure that only Altuve and Lowrie could be part of a really competitive club, and I'm not positive on either of them.

As far as your question about a player to build around, how long a list do you want? A young A-Rod. Tulowitski. Votto. Pujols. A young Jeter. Heyward. Trout. Harper. McCutcheon. Hamilton. Mauer. I could go on.

And to answer your last question, you obviously can't wait on finding that player "to build around;" you have to field the most competitive club you can by constantly assembling the best players long term you can find. I think that is what Luhnow is doing, what Crane and Postolous are committed to doing and what will continue to be done.

Is this only young players or the entire 25-man?  Wandy and Myers could easily be on competitive clubs.  Would they be in their current roles as "ace" and closer?  No and probably not.  But, they are bonafide MLB players.  Now, are they guys you build around?  I would agree that they aren't at this stage of their career and the club's development. 

One thing I am curious about is the club's willingness to speed up the rebuilding process.  The F.O. (think Luhnow, but could have been Crane) has alluded to having money available in the offseason with contracts coming off the books.  Granted, this was when the club was playing better, so whether they saw respectability being closer around the corner at that point, who knows.  But, I don't think we're necessarily stuck with the current MLB/AAA crew to compose next year's 25-man (give or take any additions/subtractions over the next month, or so).  Do I expect them to splurge on players?  No, but, I do think they will continue to tinker and fill some spots based on their observations of the current options.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2012, 03:51:30 pm »
Damn, y'all are negative.  None of these guys can be part of a competitive team?

What exactly is a guy "you build around" and do you have to wait on whomever meets that criteria before you start assembling players?

In 1991, you had very young versions of "guys you build around":

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Steve Finley
Luis Gonzales
Ken Caminiti
Darryl Kile

Sure, two of those guys should be Hall of Famers, but all of them were high upside, high skill guys who needed experience.  I don't see any Luis Gonzales' on this team.

I don't see any Tuffy Rhodes' on this team.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2012, 03:56:05 pm »
In 1991, you had very young versions of "guys you build around":

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Steve Finley
Luis Gonzales
Ken Caminiti
Darryl Kile

Sure, two of those guys should be Hall of Famers, but all of them were high upside, high skill guys who needed experience.  I don't see any Luis Gonzales' on this team.

I don't see any Tuffy Rhodes' on this team.

Chris Johnson will never be a "Caminiti."
Bogusevic and/or Martinez will never be a "Gonzales" or a "Finley".

at least to me.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2012, 04:11:16 pm »
In 1991, you had very young versions of "guys you build around":

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Steve Finley
Luis Gonzales
Ken Caminiti
Darryl Kile

Sure, two of those guys should be Hall of Famers, but all of them were high upside, high skill guys who needed experience.  I don't see any Luis Gonzales' on this team.

I don't see any Tuffy Rhodes' on this team.
I wonder how people saw those players back then.  It might be that the general fan thought most of them were shit and would always be shit.  In retrospect, sure, everyone saw it. 

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2012, 04:24:30 pm »
I wonder how people saw those players back then.  It might be that the general fan thought most of them were shit and would always be shit.  In retrospect, sure, everyone saw it. 

What the hell do I know?  I was excited by Eric Yelding's potential and thought Eric Anthony was finally going to put it together.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2012, 04:42:41 pm »
What the hell do I know?  I was excited by Eric Yelding's potential and thought Eric Anthony was finally going to put it together.

+1 on both. I thought that Yelding was tailor-made to play in the Astrodome for a slap, punch 'n judy team like the Astros. I don't remember why Eric Anthony failed to put it together, despite showing signs that he would. But I do remember being disappointed when he didn't.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2012, 04:45:36 pm »
Is this only young players or the entire 25-man?  Wandy and Myers could easily be on competitive clubs.  Would they be in their current roles as "ace" and closer?  No and probably not.  But, they are bonafide MLB players.  Now, are they guys you build around?  I would agree that they aren't at this stage of their career and the club's development. 

One thing I am curious about is the club's willingness to speed up the rebuilding process.  The F.O. (think Luhnow, but could have been Crane) has alluded to having money available in the offseason with contracts coming off the books.  Granted, this was when the club was playing better, so whether they saw respectability being closer around the corner at that point, who knows.  But, I don't think we're necessarily stuck with the current MLB/AAA crew to compose next year's 25-man (give or take any additions/subtractions over the next month, or so).  Do I expect them to splurge on players?  No, but, I do think they will continue to tinker and fill some spots based on their observations of the current options.

I almost included Myers because he can still pitch. Wandy, I'm not so sure about. Sure, his numbers are decent but not great. But I see Wandy as toiling for a sub-.500 club. He just doesn't excite me. Never has.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2012, 04:48:16 pm »
What, Wandy couldn't pitch for a good club?  All of a sudden, the same pitches will be hit and the ERA soars to five?

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2012, 04:52:53 pm »
What, Wandy couldn't pitch for a good club?  All of a sudden, the same pitches will be hit and the ERA soars to five?

Wandy, if he tightened it up a little, probably could be a three with a decent club. However, I've never thought of Wandy as a "money pitcher."
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2012, 05:00:29 pm »
Wandy, if he tightened it up a little, probably could be a three with a decent club. However, I've never thought of Wandy as a "money pitcher."

I think he's a lot better than you do and I think some team in contention will be damn glad to have him here in a couple of weeks.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2012, 05:36:58 pm »
What the hell do I know?  I was excited by Eric Yelding's potential and thought Eric Anthony was finally going to put it together.

Remember when Orlando Miller was called up mid-season in the early '90s?  In his second or third game, he jacked two out of Wrigley, with ease.  I thought he was the second coming of Ernie Banks.

I also thought, at first blush, that Gerald Young was going to be a consistently good leadoff hitter, for years.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2012, 05:46:51 pm »
I think he's a lot better than you do and I think some team in contention will be damn glad to have him here in a couple of weeks.

Maybe I'm seriously underestimating Wandy and you're probably right about some club (even the Rangers given how Oswalt has looked so far) that is desperate for starting pitching will want him, especially this year given the added wildcard playoff spot. However, I've always seen Wandy as a June/July pitcher, and not as an August/September pitcher when it is all on the line. When the leaves turn brown, I expect Wandy to go down.

His career numbers seem to bear that out. He's 17-16 in June and 20-10 in July, but 13-15 in August and 6-13 in September/October. Granted, even though he's been pitching for a traveling horseshit show for the past few seasons and his numbers this season (7-6 3.39) are pretty good, especially for this team, I just wouldn't bet on Wandy coming up huge in a big game. Wandy beats the lesser clubs (8-5 against Pittsburgh) but not the upper echelon clubs. For example, he's 0-2 with an 11.70 ERA against the Yankees and only 6-11 against the Cardinals.

I think that we're going to see him pitching for another club this season before too much longer. I hope that he surprises me and rises to the occasion. I'll be pulling for him. However, I won't be surprised if he doesn't.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2012, 05:52:50 pm »
Remember when Orlando Miller was called up mid-season in the early '90s?  In his second or third game, he jacked two out of Wrigley, with ease.  I thought he was the second coming of Ernie Banks.

I also thought, at first blush, that Gerald Young was going to be a consistently good leadoff hitter, for years.


i liked Gerald Young very much too.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2012, 06:39:46 pm »
I still have my Ryan Bowen autographed baseball. Yes, Ryan Bowen, the next JR Richards, only this guy was going to be a Hall of Famer when all was said and done.  See how much I know!

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2012, 06:42:02 pm »
I wonder how people saw those players back then.  It might be that the general fan thought most of them were shit and would always be shit.  In retrospect, sure, everyone saw it. 

The average fan thought they were all gonna be stars.  Of course, the average fan couldn't see the difference between Craig Biggio and Chris Burke or Jeff Bagwell from Jason Lane.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2012, 06:45:14 pm »
The average fan thought they were all gonna be stars.  Of course, the average fan couldn't see the difference between Craig Biggio and Chris Burke or Jeff Bagwell from Jason Lane.

First time I saw Morgan Ensberg play at Round Rock, I think I turned to MRaup and said "This guy is going to be a very good major leaguer". Of course, he actually swung the bat back then too.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2012, 06:50:22 pm »
I remember being excited about a Rob Neyer article about an amazing new pitcher,named Tim Redding, in the Astros farm system with the best stuff he'd ever seen. Couldn't wait to see what that guy could do.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2012, 06:55:00 pm »
I still have my Ryan Bowen autographed baseball. Yes, Ryan Bowen, the next JR Richards, only this guy was going to be a Hall of Famer when all was said and done.  See how much I know!

I don't remember my early impressions of Bowen; but I remember following the 1992 expansion draft from work and being overjoyed that Bowen and Butch Henry were selected by the Marlins and Rockies, respectively.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2012, 06:56:53 pm »
I remember being excited about a Rob Neyer article about an amazing new pitcher,named Tim Redding, in the Astros farm system with the best stuff he'd ever seen. Couldn't wait to see what that guy could do.

I will see your Tim Redding and raise you a Wilfredo Rodriquez (who I was sure was bound for glory). Only thing Wi-Rod is known for is giving up Barry Bone's historic homerun at the MMPUS!

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2012, 06:59:14 pm »
I remember being excited about a Rob Neyer article about an amazing new pitcher,named Tim Redding, in the Astros farm system with the best stuff he'd ever seen. Couldn't wait to see what that guy could do.

Tim Redding has electric stuff.  He was the proverbial "million dollar arm with a five cent head".
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2012, 07:11:28 pm »
First time I saw Morgan Ensberg play at Round Rock, I think I turned to MRaup and said "This guy is going to be a very good major leaguer". Of course, he actually swung the bat back then too.

For the life of me, I'll never understand what happened to him.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2012, 07:26:35 pm »
I remember being excited about a Rob Neyer article about an amazing new pitcher,named Tim Redding, in the Astros farm system with the best stuff he'd ever seen. Couldn't wait to see what that guy could do.

I watched Tim Redding pitch every fifth day in New Orleans. He had 95-96 cheese with late movement and sharp secondary pitches, and he impressed me against PCL hitters. However, when I met him with one of the owners of the Zephyrs, I realized that he wouldn't ever be as good as his stuff. Dumb as dirt. No real awareness of the game going on around him. Then he lost his good stuff. He's still pitching in the PCL for the Las Vegas 51's (Toronto), where he's 0-4 ERA 8.57 BAA .360, but he's on the temporarily inactive list, which usually means a release is imminent.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2012, 07:54:35 pm »
I'll never forget tooling around downtown Houston after a game one night in 2003 I guess it was. I came up next to a neon blue Chevrolet Cavalier, a coupe, basically just beat to shit. If in 2003 you had a girlfriend going to college part time and working the second shift at Chotchkie's this is the car she drove.

Anyway I glide to a stop and glance over and the driver is of course Tim Redding.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2012, 08:53:45 pm »
I'll never forget tooling around downtown Houston after a game one night in 2003 I guess it was. I came up next to a neon blue Chevrolet Cavalier, a coupe, basically just beat to shit. If in 2003 you had a girlfriend going to college part time and working the second shift at Chotchkie's this is the car she drove.

Anyway I glide to a stop and glance over and the driver is of course Tim Redding.
See, that in and of itself would actually make me more inclined to like a player, as opposed to the kid who blows most of his signing bonus on a tricked-out F150 before he's played his first pro game. I guess I have a bit of a soft spot for beat to shit cars. You should've seen my '95 Camry before she finally had to be put down last year.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2012, 09:09:16 pm »
snip However, I've always seen Wandy as a June/July pitcher, and not as an August/September pitcher when it is all on the line. When the leaves turn brown, I expect Wandy to go down.

His career numbers seem to bear that out. He's 17-16 in June and 20-10 in July, but 13-15 in August and 6-13 in September/October. snip

Except his career numbers don't actually bear it out at all. As a pitcher, I'm sure you don't believe that wins and losses are the best measure of a pitcher's performance. If you look at Wandy's career performance stats instead of his W/L, he's a demonstrably better second half pitcher. May and June are actually his worst months.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2012, 09:18:10 pm »
Speaking of what could have been, would it be a stretch to say that Carlos Hernandez would have projected out better than Wandy if not for the injuries? 

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2012, 09:22:02 pm »
Except his career numbers don't actually bear it out at all. As a pitcher, I'm sure you don't believe that wins and losses are the best measure of a pitcher's performance. If you look at Wandy's career performance stats instead of his W/L, he's a demonstrably better second half pitcher. May and June are actually his worst months.

While I've never been one to solely judge a pitcher by wins and losses, they do count, especially after the ASB, where I think that they count even more. The Boss once called Dave Winfield "Mr. May," so bottom line result do matter a lot. Wandy's work this season on a crappy team, i.e., to have a winning record, albeit 7-6, speaks loudly to me, much more loudly than his 3.38 ERA. That's why I think that Luhnow should move him now, and I believe that he will do so. Some club should be willing to part with a decent prospect or two, although the Astros may have to pay part of his salary to get better prospects. That is just my $.02, which I realize isn't worth very much.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2012, 09:32:05 pm »
Still have my Scott Elarton-signed hat.  He was destined for greatness.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2012, 09:37:07 pm »
I thought Berkman would be great.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2012, 09:58:37 pm »
Still have my Scott Elarton-signed hat.  He was destined for greatness.

I thought that he was going to be better than Oswalt.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2012, 10:02:57 pm »
While I've never been one to solely judge a pitcher by wins and losses, they do count, especially after the ASB, where I think that they count even more. The Boss once called Dave Winfield "Mr. May," so bottom line result do matter a lot. Wandy's work this season on a crappy team, i.e., to have a winning record, albeit 7-6, speaks loudly to me, much more loudly than his 3.38 ERA. That's why I think that Luhnow should move him now, and I believe that he will do so. Some club should be willing to part with a decent prospect or two, although the Astros may have to pay part of his salary to get better prospects. That is just my $.02, which I realize isn't worth very much.
I think you're really selling Wandy short. I have a lot of respect for the way he made himself a good pitcher, emerging from a rough first 2-3 years to become, in my mind, a solid #2. You really can't hold his won-loss record against him when his supporting cast has been mostly bad and for the last year and a half, terrible (and why is your benchmark on the subject George Steinbrenner?). Just because he's not Steve Carlton doesn't mean he's not a good pitcher. Just about any contending team except the Phillies would be happy if Wandy was their #3 pitcher.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2012, 10:05:16 pm »
The only Express game I ever went to Carlos Hernandez struck out 14 batters in 8 innings and Jason Lane hit 3 home runs.  That was a future.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2012, 10:12:49 pm »
See, that in and of itself would actually make me more inclined to like a player, as opposed to the kid who blows most of his signing bonus on a tricked-out F150 before he's played his first pro game. I guess I have a bit of a soft spot for beat to shit cars. You should've seen my '95 Camry before she finally had to be put down last year.

I know exactly what you mean. I had a soft spot for Jacoby Jones after I learned that the car in which he was pulled over for DWI was a Nissan Altima rather than god knows what.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2012, 12:04:15 am »
I think you're really selling Wandy short. I have a lot of respect for the way he made himself a good pitcher, emerging from a rough first 2-3 years to become, in my mind, a solid #2. You really can't hold his won-loss record against him when his supporting cast has been mostly bad and for the last year and a half, terrible (and why is your benchmark on the subject George Steinbrenner?). Just because he's not Steve Carlton doesn't mean he's not a good pitcher. Just about any contending team except the Phillies would be happy if Wandy was their #3 pitcher.

Reuben: Fair enough. Let's take a look. For starters, I think that AL clubs will be particularly wary of Wandy's 9-12 5.09 ERA in interleague play. So let's look around the NL at teams in contention. Let's start in the West.

I don't  think that Wandy would prime Cain, Bumgarner or Vogelsong in SFO. And that assumes that he would even prime Lincecum, who, even though he has sucked eggs this season, is a two time Cy Young winner. To me, the only one that Wandy is clearly better than is Zito. In Arizona, you've got Miley, Saunders, Cahill and Kennedy, so Wandy slots in 3-5 there. In LA, you've got Kershaw, Capuano, Harang and Billingsley, so Wandy slots in 3-5 there. That takes care of the NL West teams in contention. Let's head to the NL Central.

You've got three teams in the hunt right now, with Milwaukee on the outside looking in. Pittsburgh has McDonald, Burnett, Correia and Bedard. I think that he slots in a solid 3 there. That might be a trading partner, but it is within the division, so maybe not. In Cincy, the Dickities have Cueto, Arroyo, Bailey, Leake and Latos. Wandy probably slots in 3 or 4 there. In St. Louis, you've got Kelly, Lohse, Lynn, Wainright and Westbrook. Where does he slot there? Anywhere from 2-4. Who's in contention in the NL East?

Washington-Zimmermann, Strasburg, Gonzalez, Detwiler and Jackson. Wandy slots in 4 or 5 there, tops. steM: Dickey, Santana, Niese and Gee. Wandy goes in 3 or 4 there. ATL: Hudson, Hanson, Delgado, Minor and Jurrgens. Now there, Wandy slots in a solid 3-there's another potential trade partner. And they've still got some prospects.

So, in conclusion, you and Chuck were probably right about Wandy. Even though Wandy is an 80-81 4.01 career pitcher, which are arguably pretty pedestrian numbers, he slots in at 3 or better on several of the teams presently in contention. But the question is how much of an upgrade would he be? To me, even on most of the teams where I have him at least at a 3, he's not a significant enough upgrade to give away many prime prospects, especially given his salary price tag. To me, the best NL trading partners are Pittsburgh and Atlanta, given their needs.

Thanks for nudging me to do a little homework.
  
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pots

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2012, 06:34:57 am »
Quote
Washington-Zimmermann, Strasburg, Gonzalez, Detwiler and Jackson. Wandy slots in 4 or 5 there, tops.
3-5.  Strasburg will be shut down at the end of July if they want him for late September and October.  
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 08:01:04 am by pots »

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2012, 06:35:17 am »
The average fan thought they were all gonna be stars.  Of course, the average fan couldn't see the difference between Craig Biggio and Chris Burke or Jeff Bagwell from Jason Lane.

I would like to go on record saying I never liked Jason Lane.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2012, 07:45:42 am »

You've got three teams in the hunt right now, with Milwaukee on the outside looking in. Pittsburgh has McDonald, Burnett, Correia and Bedard. I think that he slots in a solid 3 there. That might be a trading partner, but it is within the division...


No, it's not.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2012, 07:57:55 am »
So, in conclusion, you and Chuck were probably right about Wandy. Even though Wandy is an 80-81 4.01 career pitcher, which are arguably pretty pedestrian numbers, he slots in at 3 or better on several of the teams presently in contention. But the question is how much of an upgrade would he be? To me, even on most of the teams where I have him at least at a 3, he's not a significant enough upgrade to give away many prime prospects, especially given his salary price tag. To me, the best NL trading partners are Pittsburgh and Atlanta, given their needs.

Thanks for nudging me to do a little homework.
  
Geez, no one is buying a "career-Wandy," they are buying the present version  That is like saying if you acquired Bautista, you are getting a player who averages 20 homers per year.  Huh?

I also looked at his ERA against inter-league the last two years.  Under 4.00.  Probably skewed towards Ranger starts also. 

If someone starts saying that kind of shit to Luhnow when they call for Wandy, he should laugh for a while and hang up. 

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2012, 07:58:35 am »
No, it's not.

I'm sick of you fucking defeatists on this years playoff chances.
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pots

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2012, 08:01:18 am »
3-5.  Strasburg will be shut down at the end of July if they want him for late September and October.  
Still dreaming that a Wandy, (Paredes or Villar) and cash can get Rendon.

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SS-Fontana
2B-Altuve
1B-Singleton
LF-JD Martinez
DH-F Martinez
CF-Springer
3B-Rendon
C-Castro
RF-Santana


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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2012, 08:06:07 am »
So, in conclusion, you and Chuck were probably right about Wandy. Even though Wandy is an 80-81 4.01 career pitcher, which are arguably pretty pedestrian numbers, he slots in at 3 or better on several of the teams presently in contention. But the question is how much of an upgrade would he be? To me, even on most of the teams where I have him at least at a 3, he's not a significant enough upgrade to give away many prime prospects, especially given his salary price tag. To me, the best NL trading partners are Pittsburgh and Atlanta, given their needs.

Thanks for nudging me to do a little homework.
  

Jbm pretty much summed it up, but Wandy's 3.39 ERA over the past 5 seasons is much more relative than what he did in his first 3 seasons.  

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2012, 08:24:42 am »
I'm sick of you fucking defeatists on this years playoff chances.

The Pirates (or any of the NL Central) wouldn't hesitate to trade with the Astros because they're in the same division.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2012, 09:57:39 am »
Still dreaming that a Wandy, (Paredes or Villar) and cash can get Rendon.

2014 lineup:
SS-Fontana
2B-Altuve
1B-Singleton
LF-JD Martinez
DH-F Martinez
CF-Springer
3B-Rendon
C-Castro
RF-Santana



What makes you think Rendon will ever stay healthy?
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2012, 10:02:03 am »
Maybe I'm seriously underestimating Wandy and you're probably right about some club (even the Rangers given how Oswalt has looked so far) that is desperate for starting pitching will want him, especially this year given the added wildcard playoff spot. However, I've always seen Wandy as a June/July pitcher, and not as an August/September pitcher when it is all on the line. When the leaves turn brown, I expect Wandy to go down.

His career numbers seem to bear that out. He's 17-16 in June and 20-10 in July, but 13-15 in August and 6-13 in September/October. Granted, even though he's been pitching for a traveling horseshit show for the past few seasons and his numbers this season (7-6 3.39) are pretty good, especially for this team, I just wouldn't bet on Wandy coming up huge in a big game. Wandy beats the lesser clubs (8-5 against Pittsburgh) but not the upper echelon clubs. For example, he's 0-2 with an 11.70 ERA against the Yankees and only 6-11 against the Cardinals.

I think that we're going to see him pitching for another club this season before too much longer. I hope that he surprises me and rises to the occasion. I'll be pulling for him. However, I won't be surprised if he doesn't.

Lets try looking at some numbers that are actually relevent.  Not numbers that Wandy Rodriguez posted his first year in the league.  Noone is looking at Wandy Rodriguez for how he pitched his first year or two in the league.  They are looking at Wandy Rodriguez for how he has pitched this year, and the past several years.

Here are his numbers from 2009-2011:
Pre All Star Break:
3.78 ERA, 20 Wins - 23 Losses, .267 BAA, 6.078 innings per star

Post All Star Break:
2.88 ERA, 16 Wins - 12 Losses, .230 BAA, 6.397 innings per star

Looks like the recent numbers show you have no idea what you are talking about.  Lets look at the month by month break down:
April: 3.23 ERA, 4-7, .260 BAA
May: 3.91 ERA, 6-7, .296 BAA
June: 4.45 ERA, 7-6, .260 BAA
July: 2.58 ERA, 9-4. .215 BAA
August: 2.83 ERA, 7-6, .220 BAA
September: 3.34 ERA, 3-4, .250 BAA

Monthly break downs once again show you have no idea what you are talking about.  Recent history, and current numbers are all that teams are looking at, not how he performed 8 years ago.....

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2012, 10:07:20 am »
Shit, looks like if we could just give him June off we'd have a hell of a pitcher there.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2012, 10:09:48 am »
Lets try looking at some numbers that are actually relevent.  Not numbers that Wandy Rodriguez posted his first year in the league.  Noone is looking at Wandy Rodriguez for how he pitched his first year or two in the league.  They are looking at Wandy Rodriguez for how he has pitched this year, and the past several years.

Here are his numbers from 2009-2011:
Pre All Star Break:
3.78 ERA, 20 Wins - 23 Losses, .267 BAA, 6.078 innings per star

Post All Star Break:
2.88 ERA, 16 Wins - 12 Losses, .230 BAA, 6.397 innings per star

Looks like the recent numbers show you have no idea what you are talking about.  Lets look at the month by month break down:
April: 3.23 ERA, 4-7, .260 BAA
May: 3.91 ERA, 6-7, .296 BAA
June: 4.45 ERA, 7-6, .260 BAA
July: 2.58 ERA, 9-4. .215 BAA
August: 2.83 ERA, 7-6, .220 BAA
September: 3.34 ERA, 3-4, .250 BAA

Monthly break downs once again show you have no idea what you are talking about.  Recent history, and current numbers are all that teams are looking at, not how he performed 8 years ago.....
Who the fuck asked you to butt in and start proclaiming Mr. Happy (or anyone else) has "no idea" what he's talking about? That is not the way to bust in here and join the discussion, pal.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2012, 10:14:12 am »
They are looking at Wandy Rodriguez for how he has pitched this year, and the past several years.

What makes you think what Wandy did in 2009 is relevant to teams now?  How is that the cutoff, and not 2008? or 2010?
What makes you think that the teams looking at Wandy aren't looking at breakdowns a hell of a lot more detailed than monthly ERA to forecast his future value to them?
I can't say you once again have no idea, because you're new here, so you simply start off having no idea what you are talking about.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #89 on: July 10, 2012, 10:15:14 am »
What makes you think Rendon will ever stay healthy?

His inability to stay healthy so far is probably the only reason the Stros would even have a shot of extracting him from the Nats.  

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2012, 10:18:03 am »
What makes you think what Wandy did in 2009 is relevant to teams now?  How is that the cutoff, and not 2008? or 2010?
What makes you think that the teams looking at Wandy aren't looking at breakdowns a hell of a lot more detailed than monthly ERA to forecast his future value to them?
I can't say you once again have no idea, because you're new here, so you simply start off having no idea what you are talking about.

2008 doesn't support his argument.  Please try to keep up.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #91 on: July 10, 2012, 10:20:27 am »
His inability to stay healthy so far is probably the only reason the Stros would even have a shot of extracting him from the Nats.  

Might also be a reason not to trade the farm for him.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2012, 10:55:34 am »
Reuben: Fair enough. Let's take a look. For starters, I think that AL clubs will be particularly wary of Wandy's 9-12 5.09 ERA in interleague play. So let's look around the NL at teams in contention. Let's start in the West.

I don't  think that Wandy would prime Cain, Bumgarner or Vogelsong in SFO. And that assumes that he would even prime Lincecum, who, even though he has sucked eggs this season, is a two time Cy Young winner. To me, the only one that Wandy is clearly better than is Zito. In Arizona, you've got Miley, Saunders, Cahill and Kennedy, so Wandy slots in 3-5 there. In LA, you've got Kershaw, Capuano, Harang and Billingsley, so Wandy slots in 3-5 there. That takes care of the NL West teams in contention. Let's head to the NL Central.

You've got three teams in the hunt right now, with Milwaukee on the outside looking in. Pittsburgh has McDonald, Burnett, Correia and Bedard. I think that he slots in a solid 3 there. That might be a trading partner, but it is within the division, so maybe not. In Cincy, the Dickities have Cueto, Arroyo, Bailey, Leake and Latos. Wandy probably slots in 3 or 4 there. In St. Louis, you've got Kelly, Lohse, Lynn, Wainright and Westbrook. Where does he slot there? Anywhere from 2-4. Who's in contention in the NL East?

Washington-Zimmermann, Strasburg, Gonzalez, Detwiler and Jackson. Wandy slots in 4 or 5 there, tops. steM: Dickey, Santana, Niese and Gee. Wandy goes in 3 or 4 there. ATL: Hudson, Hanson, Delgado, Minor and Jurrgens. Now there, Wandy slots in a solid 3-there's another potential trade partner. And they've still got some prospects.

So, in conclusion, you and Chuck were probably right about Wandy. Even though Wandy is an 80-81 4.01 career pitcher, which are arguably pretty pedestrian numbers, he slots in at 3 or better on several of the teams presently in contention. But the question is how much of an upgrade would he be? To me, even on most of the teams where I have him at least at a 3, he's not a significant enough upgrade to give away many prime prospects, especially given his salary price tag. To me, the best NL trading partners are Pittsburgh and Atlanta, given their needs.

Thanks for nudging me to do a little homework.
  

You may have done some homework, but you let your perception, not the raw numbers influence your perception of reality:
Lets take a look at all of the teams currently in contention, and who might be interested in him.

Washington Nationals: Doubtful that they are intrested, given that they have 5 pitchers with a sub 3.75 ERA.  And three pitchers with a sub 3 ERA.  Pitching, expecially starting pitching is not an area of concern for the Nationals.

Atlanta Braves: Wandy Rodriguez has a better ERA, and Quality Start Percentage than anyone on the Braves Staff.  And he has pitched more inning per start than anyone on the staff not named Tim Hudson.  All the numbers show that Wandy Rodriguez is atworst the #2 starter, and maybe even the #1 starter for the Braves.

New York Mets: The Mets have RA Dickey who obviously has better numbers than Wandy Rodriguez.  But Johan Santana is posting very comparable numbers to Wandy Rodriguez.  Wandy Rodriguez has a slightly higher Quality Start Percentage, and has pitched more inning per star than Santana, but Santana has a slightly better ERA (3.24 compared to 3.38).  Santana probably keeps the #2 role on the staff due to already being on the team.  After that is Niese who Wandy has beat in ERA (3.73 to 3.38), as well has innings per start, and is tied with in number of quality starts.  Plus Wandy has a much better history and track record that Niese has.  Wandy is no worse than a possible #2, likely #3 here.

Pittsburgh Pirates: The Pirates has James McDonald who is still the clear #1 for them, but Wandy Rodriguez is the likely #2 for Pittsburgh.  He has a better ERA, better WHIP, more innings per start, and tied for equal number of quality starts with AJ Burnett.  But, even if you gave Burnett the #2 spot over Wandy Rodriguez, Wandy is no doubt the clear #3, as he blows Kevin Correia away in every category.

Cincinnati Reds: Once again, the Reds have Johnny Cuerto at the #1 spot, but after that, Wandy Rodriguez has more quality starts, and a significantly better ERA (3.38 compared to 3.86) compared to AJ Burnett.  And once you get to the #3 slot Wandy Rodriguez is an absolute no doubt upgrade over Mike Leake.  So you once again have a likely #2 or no doubt #3 starter.

St Louis Cardinals: Kyle Loshe would still be the #1 in St Louis, but after him Wandy has a slightly better ERA, more quality starts, and more innings per start them Lynn.  And all those differences are even more evident once you get to Westbrook.  Wandy is once again a possible #2, easy #3 starter in St Louis.

LA Dodgers: The Dodgers have Kershaw and Capuano at #1, and #2.  And Wandy would only be a slight upgrade to Harang at the #3 spot, but is a clear upgrade to Billingsly at the #4 spot.  So he would slot as a #3 or #4 here no doubt.  But pitching is not the Dodgers weakness.

San Francisco Giants: The Giants are great 1-3 at pitching with Vogelsong, Cain, and Bumgarner.  But Wandy is a definate upgrade to Zito at #4.

Arizona Diamondbacks: Miley likely keeps the #1 spot here.  But after that Wandy is a slight but definate upgrade in all categories, ERA, WHIP, Quality Starts, Innings per start over Cahill, and a no doubt significant upgrade over Kennedy.

The ONLY teams that Wandy would not be a no doubt upgrade at the #3 position at for teams would be the three teams that likely have no intrest in trading for pitching the Giants, Dodgers, and Nationals.  All other teams he slots as either a close #2, solid #3.  Or a likely #2, and no doubt #3 starter.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #93 on: July 10, 2012, 11:49:25 am »
Lets try looking at some numbers that are actually relevent.  Not numbers that Wandy Rodriguez posted his first year in the league.  Noone is looking at Wandy Rodriguez for how he pitched his first year or two in the league.  They are looking at Wandy Rodriguez for how he has pitched this year, and the past several years.

Here are his numbers from 2009-2011:
Pre All Star Break:
3.78 ERA, 20 Wins - 23 Losses, .267 BAA, 6.078 innings per star

Post All Star Break:
2.88 ERA, 16 Wins - 12 Losses, .230 BAA, 6.397 innings per star

Looks like the recent numbers show you have no idea what you are talking about.  Lets look at the month by month break down:
April: 3.23 ERA, 4-7, .260 BAA
May: 3.91 ERA, 6-7, .296 BAA
June: 4.45 ERA, 7-6, .260 BAA
July: 2.58 ERA, 9-4. .215 BAA
August: 2.83 ERA, 7-6, .220 BAA
September: 3.34 ERA, 3-4, .250 BAA

Monthly break downs once again show you have no idea what you are talking about.  Recent history, and current numbers are all that teams are looking at, not how he performed 8 years ago.....

I took the statistics straight from baseball-reference.com, so I don't think that they're wrong. However, your point is a good one about his last three years being a much more relevant analysis piece. I guess that I am guilty of being lazy in not analyzing just the last three seasons instead of just looking at his entire career. Mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa. As far as your assertion that I don't know what I'm talking about, while I think that goes a little too far, I tend to agree with you. I know nothing about this game. Teach me some more.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2012, 12:05:41 pm »
You may have done some homework, but you let your perception, not the raw numbers influence your perception of reality:
Lets take a look at all of the teams currently in contention, and who might be interested in him.

Washington Nationals: Doubtful that they are intrested, given that they have 5 pitchers with a sub 3.75 ERA.  And three pitchers with a sub 3 ERA.  Pitching, expecially starting pitching is not an area of concern for the Nationals.

Atlanta Braves: Wandy Rodriguez has a better ERA, and Quality Start Percentage than anyone on the Braves Staff.  And he has pitched more inning per start than anyone on the staff not named Tim Hudson.  All the numbers show that Wandy Rodriguez is atworst the #2 starter, and maybe even the #1 starter for the Braves.

New York Mets: The Mets have RA Dickey who obviously has better numbers than Wandy Rodriguez.  But Johan Santana is posting very comparable numbers to Wandy Rodriguez.  Wandy Rodriguez has a slightly higher Quality Start Percentage, and has pitched more inning per star than Santana, but Santana has a slightly better ERA (3.24 compared to 3.38).  Santana probably keeps the #2 role on the staff due to already being on the team.  After that is Niese who Wandy has beat in ERA (3.73 to 3.38), as well has innings per start, and is tied with in number of quality starts.  Plus Wandy has a much better history and track record that Niese has.  Wandy is no worse than a possible #2, likely #3 here.

Pittsburgh Pirates: The Pirates has James McDonald who is still the clear #1 for them, but Wandy Rodriguez is the likely #2 for Pittsburgh.  He has a better ERA, better WHIP, more innings per start, and tied for equal number of quality starts with AJ Burnett.  But, even if you gave Burnett the #2 spot over Wandy Rodriguez, Wandy is no doubt the clear #3, as he blows Kevin Correia away in every category.

Cincinnati Reds: Once again, the Reds have Johnny Cuerto at the #1 spot, but after that, Wandy Rodriguez has more quality starts, and a significantly better ERA (3.38 compared to 3.86) compared to AJ Burnett.  And once you get to the #3 slot Wandy Rodriguez is an absolute no doubt upgrade over Mike Leake.  So you once again have a likely #2 or no doubt #3 starter.

St Louis Cardinals: Kyle Loshe would still be the #1 in St Louis, but after him Wandy has a slightly better ERA, more quality starts, and more innings per start them Lynn.  And all those differences are even more evident once you get to Westbrook.  Wandy is once again a possible #2, easy #3 starter in St Louis.

LA Dodgers: The Dodgers have Kershaw and Capuano at #1, and #2.  And Wandy would only be a slight upgrade to Harang at the #3 spot, but is a clear upgrade to Billingsly at the #4 spot.  So he would slot as a #3 or #4 here no doubt.  But pitching is not the Dodgers weakness.

San Francisco Giants: The Giants are great 1-3 at pitching with Vogelsong, Cain, and Bumgarner.  But Wandy is a definate upgrade to Zito at #4.

Arizona Diamondbacks: Miley likely keeps the #1 spot here.  But after that Wandy is a slight but definate upgrade in all categories, ERA, WHIP, Quality Starts, Innings per start over Cahill, and a no doubt significant upgrade over Kennedy.

The ONLY teams that Wandy would not be a no doubt upgrade at the #3 position at for teams would be the three teams that likely have no intrest in trading for pitching the Giants, Dodgers, and Nationals.  All other teams he slots as either a close #2, solid #3.  Or a likely #2, and no doubt #3 starter.

So all you've done is essentially back up my original conclusion: that I was wrong about Wandy and that Chuck and Reuben were correct-I admitted that in my first take-and that he slots in at 3 or better on several of the NL contending clubs, no? I still think that the Braves and Pirates match up pretty well with real needs for a starting pitcher. But we'll have to wait and see what happens. However, nice work, Clark. But work on your table manners a little.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #96 on: July 10, 2012, 12:18:28 pm »
The Orioles want to stop their freefall, which in my opinion is probably going to still happen even if they get some help for their dreadful starting pitching behind Hammel and Chen because I don't think that the Orioles are a playoff team. However, I'm not familiar enough with the Orioles farm system to know whether they have any prospects that they'd trade for Wandy. Same thing for the White Sox.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2012, 12:37:53 pm »
I'm not familiar enough with the Orioles farm system to know whether they have any prospects that they'd trade for Wandy. Same thing for the White Sox.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2012, 12:47:53 pm »
You will be next season.

But will you still be here with me? That's my question to you.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2012, 01:06:44 pm »
The Orioles want to stop their freefall, which in my opinion is probably going to still happen even if they get some help for their dreadful starting pitching behind Hammel and Chen because I don't think that the Orioles are a playoff team. However, I'm not familiar enough with the Orioles farm system to know whether they have any prospects that they'd trade for Wandy. Same thing for the White Sox.

Bundy for Wandy straight up. 

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2012, 01:12:25 pm »
But will you still be here with me? That's my question to you.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2012, 01:13:13 pm »
Bundy for Wandy straight up. 

bunda for Wandy?
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2012, 01:18:17 pm »
bunda for Wandy?

Don't be ridiculous, who would want a sheep skin cape in Houston in July?

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2012, 01:19:12 pm »
Bundy for Wandy straight up. 

I'm sure we could get Bundy for Wandy; Luhnow might want to be specific, though.

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=542989

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2012, 01:20:24 pm »
Don't be ridiculous, who would want a sheep skin cape in Houston in July?

Don't be fatuous, hostros.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #105 on: July 10, 2012, 01:20:44 pm »
I'm sure we could get Bundy for Wandy; Luhnow might want to be specific, though.

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=542989

Could be worse, we could get Al Bundy.
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Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2012, 01:21:59 pm »
Worse yet - Ted.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2012, 01:22:44 pm »
Don't be fatuous, hostros.

Fatwah its worth, I thought he was being paradoxicalistic.
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2012, 01:23:14 pm »
Worse yet - Ted.

At least we'd have a killer lineup.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2012, 01:27:13 pm »
At least we'd have a killer lineup.

/golf clap/

Add Son of Sam and we'd have the proverbial Murderer's Row.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2012, 01:32:10 pm »
/golf clap/

Add Son of Sam and we'd have the proverbial Murderer's Row.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2012, 01:36:41 pm »
"Opposing batters are always wary of Astros RHP Jeffrey Dahmer, they say he's a real head-hunter." "Yeah, he'll just chew you up with that inside fastball".

The Astros have acquired Lee Harvey Oswald, but there are conflicting reports as to whether a player to be named later will accompany him.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2012, 01:39:03 pm »
The Astros have acquired Lee Harvey Oswald, but there are conflicting reports as to whether a player to be named later will accompany him.

What do you think of reports that J.W. Gacy will be coming over with Oswald?

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2012, 01:39:38 pm »
Heard that Mills will be replaced with Charles Manson-not sure if MLB will allow the tatoo on the forehead though.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2012, 01:44:55 pm »
Could be worse, we could get Al Bundy.

Could be better, we could get Kelly Bundy.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2012, 01:46:28 pm »
Could be better, we could get Kelly Bundy.

Dunno about that being worse...  She's worth taking a second look at and would knock Shreefer off the top of the team idiot list...
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Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2012, 02:04:39 pm »
Heard that Mills will be replaced with Charles Manson-not sure if MLB will allow the tatoo on the forehead though.

Manson is no match for Brad "Dark Satanic" Mills.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2012, 02:10:13 pm »
Let's just hope Crane doesn't bring in Armin Meiwes to serve as Chief Nutritionist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #118 on: July 10, 2012, 06:27:03 pm »
They should bring in Richard Speck to switch-hit.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #119 on: July 10, 2012, 06:55:07 pm »
All right, you sick bastards.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2012, 07:19:02 pm »
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2012, 07:39:06 pm »
Andrew Cunanan, roving instructor

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2012, 12:56:13 pm »
Fatwah its worth, I thought he was being paradoxicalistic.

I thought he was being supercalifragilisticexpialidoxical.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2012, 01:02:29 pm »
I once played for a work 5-a-side soccer team.  We called ourselves "Real Sociopath"*, and had serial killers' names on the back of our jerseys.  About three people outside of the know got the joke, the rest were horrified or oblivious in equal proportion.

* A play on Spanish team Real Sociedad.


There was a scrap over who would be Manson; no one wanted to be Dahmer; Berkowitz confused even those who got the joke.  I was Bundy, and also our top scorer...coincidence?
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2012, 03:12:39 pm »
I once played for a work 5-a-side soccer team.  We called ourselves "Real Sociopath"*, and had serial killers' names on the back of our jerseys.  About three people outside of the know got the joke, the rest were horrified or oblivious in equal proportion.

* A play on Spanish team Real Sociedad.


There was a scrap over who would be Manson; no one wanted to be Dahmer; Berkowitz confused even those who got the joke.  I was Bundy, and also our top scorer...coincidence?

So much win.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2012, 03:09:22 pm »
The rumored suitors for Wandy per Duarte: Baltimore, Toronto, the New York Yankees, Boston, the Los Angeles Dodgers, St. Louis and San Francisco.

I'm a little surprised to see Boston's name on the list.  Not that they couldn't use pitching, but I didn't see them as buyers, being in 4th place and all.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2012, 03:24:38 pm »
I'm a little surprised to see Boston's name on the list.  Not that they couldn't use pitching, but I didn't see them as buyers, being in 4th place and all.

I wouldn't take it as too serious a rumor. Seems more like a list of every team that writers have speculated might be interested in Wandy for the past year.

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2012, 03:31:19 pm »
I'm a little surprised to see Boston's name on the list.  Not that they couldn't use pitching, but I didn't see them as buyers, being in 4th place and all.

I was surprised to see Toronto there for the same reason. However, the other clubs on the list are all in contention, particularly the Orioles and Yankees, definitely could use a starter right now. I think that the Astros will have to pick up some of Wandy's contract to move him, particularly if the article is correct about the club option for 2014 becoming a player option (at $13,000,000) if he gets moved. 
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #129 on: July 12, 2012, 03:55:41 pm »
I think that the Astros will have to pick up some of Wandy's contract to move him, particularly if the article is correct about the club option for 2014 becoming a player option (at $13,000,000) if he gets moved. 

Given the Lee trade, I think it's clear that Crane has a much better grasp of the notion of "sunk cost" than Drayton ever did. 
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #130 on: July 12, 2012, 04:13:09 pm »
Given the Lee trade, I think it's clear that Crane has a much better grasp of the notion of "sunk cost" than Drayton ever did. 

+1
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #131 on: July 12, 2012, 04:23:25 pm »
I'm a little surprised to see Boston's name on the list.  Not that they couldn't use pitching, but I didn't see them as buyers, being in 4th place and all.

They're 2.5 out of the WC.
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Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #132 on: July 12, 2012, 04:26:09 pm »
I'm a little surprised to see Boston's name on the list.  Not that they couldn't use pitching, but I didn't see them as buyers, being in 4th place and all.

But they think that they are entitled to be in first place.
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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #133 on: July 12, 2012, 04:26:32 pm »
They're 2.5 out of the WC.

Saw a tweet from Neyer (I think) earlier that stated (paraphrasing) that NL GM checked in on Lester's availability and Sox GM responded the team is all-in for a run this year.  

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Re: Terrific, Concise Recap of Yesrterday's Crapfest Plus
« Reply #134 on: July 12, 2012, 05:58:25 pm »
Saw a tweet from Neyer (I think) earlier that stated (paraphrasing) that NL GM checked in on Lester's availability and Sox GM responded the team is all-in for a run this year.  

I wouldn't go all-in with that hand.
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