Business Too Casual

[HudsonHawk]

I didn't start out to be the resident curmudgeon, but after rants about everything from shaving to maladroit waitstaff, it's time to list the next reason why the world has gone to hell in a handbasket...this unkempt army of hobos that has invaded my place of employment. 

When I started in the professional world (not THAT long ago), it was expected that I wear a jacket and tie, if not a suit, to work.  Every.  Day.  I was not politician or a lawyer, just a run-of-the-mill professional, who was expected to look...well, professional, not like I was getting ready to clean out the garage.  I wore socks, and the only two acceptable colors of shoes were brown or black.  Purple wasn't on the color palette.  Now, I'm appalled at what some people consider appropriate business attire.  Not only do they look like homeless waifs, but this casual attitude has blurred the definition of what is acceptable personal conduct between co-workers.  There is a line there people...when you come to work, you are to behave differently than when you are sitting in a lawn chair drinking beer.  Different language, different interactions with your co-workers. 

I'm not down on business casual.  I didn't particularly like having to wear a suit everyday, especially in Houston.  But it sure made me feel like I was working at a place of business.  Let's have SOME boundaries.

[JimR]

sorry, bub. i am not going there with you. i cannot even remember the last time i wore a suit to work unless i was going to court. i love it.

[Matt]

I think it depends on the line of work. As a designer I'm going to be uncomfortable sitting in a suit and tie all day at my work station trying be creative.

[HudsonHawk]

sorry, bub. i am not going there with you. i cannot even remember the last time i wore a suit to work unless i was going to court. i love it.

Yeah, but do you wear your pajamas and flip flops? 

[Bench]

It's pretty much slacks and dress shirt for me everyday, unless I'm going to court in which the ties and sport coat hanging on the back of my office door get used. 

[subnuclear]

I have to wear a tie everyday, but Friday. Our policy is we have to dress better than our customers, so I sometimes have to wear a suit, too (though when I go to the national labs I can go business casual). Both my bosses wear a suit everyday.

It doesn't really bother me except ties are expensive and don't look good with coffee stains.

[Gizzmonic]

It's funny, my work has no dress code (beyond indecent exposure laws), and I get constant shit for wearing a shirt with a collar and long pants every day.  I do hate being told how to dress though.  I'm in the tech field though, so we're sort of expected to dress like we work at a car wash.

[sporadic]

I'm torn on this one.  I dress the same way every day...golf shirt and slacks (with either brown or black shoes).  Not sure how professional this is, but I don't think I resemble a hobo.  On the other hand, I don't think it is too much to ask for women to wear shoes of some sort.  Not sure when flip flops became acceptable at work.  It appears glued on sparkles went and turned a pair of regular old shower shoes into some sort of fashion statement...

[Limey]

I wore a coat and tie every day (barring holidays and weekends) from the age of 5 until I was around 30.  I was used to it and, even in Houston summers, cool with it.  Then, once a month, we got a "casual Friday".  That was ok as it was a minor distraction and my company enforced a reasonable dress code for those days - no jeans, but men didn't have to wear a coat and tie.  Then I changed job and casual Friday went bye-bye.  No problem.

Then, a few years later, I returned to my original employer who had now gone full casual.  Again, the same reasonable dress code was enforced, so it wasn't PJays and flip-flops, but it required an entire new wardrobe of pants and button down shirts that I simply did not have.  I had to buy all that stuff, and maintain suits, ties and formal shirts* for client visits and business trips.

* If you're wearing a tie with a button down, you need to go see GBB.

This is basically where I am now.  I enjoy the "less formal" dress code for men, but make sure to maintain a decent level still.  I will wear jeans and a golf shirt occasionally on Fridays, but otherwise it's dress pants and a button-down long-sleeved shirt.  I still have to have suits, ties and formal shirts, and packing for business trips has become more voluminous as a result of the various dress requirements.  It takes careful planning to make sure you can mix and match shirts, pants and jackets to fit many different dress code situations.  For the most part, my co-workers dress appropriately for the code and for the general decorum.


FWIW, the middle company described above to this day maintains a very strict dress code.  For men.  Many female employees come in dressed one step up from bag ladies: sweat pants/shirts and the like are commonplace.  The reason, they say, for the "strict" dress code is that some people dress so badly that they fear what it would be like if they let them go casual.  That used to piss me off.  Their attire would be unacceptable in any professional office situation, casual of not, but the laxity in enforcement meant that only people who played by the rules suffered.  Meanwhile, the scruffers were happy in their office snuggies.


FTR, I only commented about men's dress code because, jeans and sweat pants aside, women always had far, far greater flexibility in office wardrobe than men.  Freezing cold day?  Women can wear heavy pants and a sweater; men could wear a coat and tie.  Blistering hot day?  Women can wear a skirt and light blouse; men could wear a coat and tie.  You get the picture.

[drew corleone]

We're pretty much jeans and polos/button-ups. If I have a client in I'll go with slacks and a dress shirt, though my last one specifically asked if we were casual, because he was only packing jeans.

[HudsonHawk]

It's pretty much slacks and dress shirt for me everyday, unless I'm going to court in which the ties and sport coat hanging on the back of my office door get used. 

This is fine.  Again, I'm not against the lack of suits and ties.  I just object to people treating work like they have some reason to be there other than work.

[Bench]

* If you're wearing a tie with a button down, you need to go see GBB.

Are you referring to the collar?

[HudsonHawk]

I think it depends on the line of work. As a designer I'm going to be uncomfortable sitting in a suit and tie all day at my work station trying be creative.

You can only be creative if you're dressed like a hobo?

[HudsonHawk]

I'm torn on this one.  I dress the same way every day...golf shirt and slacks (with either brown or black shoes).  Not sure how professional this is, but I don't think I resemble a hobo.  On the other hand, I don't think it is too much to ask for women to wear shoes of some sort.  Not sure when flip flops became acceptable at work.  It appears glued on sparkles went and turned a pair of regular old shower shoes into some sort of fashion statement...

I think slacks and a golf shirt is fine for most business casual attire.  See, it's not that I'm insisting on suits, only that there ought to be *some* boundaries.

[Limey]

Are you referring to the collar?

Yup.  Should be a regular collar with a tie.

[Ebby Calvin]

Business casual here, except for court days, which is suit/tie.  Generally slacks and shirt.  Jeans if you've been up all night working, but never sandals (for men).  My biggest departure from the policy lately has been shaving - I always shave for meetings and court days, but if I'm behind my computer all day I let it grow.  Those last-minute meetings can be tricky though.

[hostros7]

I think slacks and a golf shirt is fine for most business casual attire.  See, it's not that I'm insisting on suits, only that there ought to be *some* boundaries.

Don't you work at a company where business attire is thought to include short-sleeved button downs with ties by 87% of the male employees?

[Bench]

Yup.  Should be a regular collar with a tie.

Button down collars with ties look ridiculous. 

[Limey]

I think slacks and a golf shirt is fine for most business casual attire.  See, it's not that I'm insisting on suits, only that there ought to be *some* boundaries.

I was in a client's office in Houston, on a video conference call with a their office in Austin.  On the other end, at least 3 dudes were wearing shorts.  Didn't bother me, it's their office, but they came across a less serious to me.

[Limey]

Button down collars with ties look ridiculous. 

Along those lines, and at the risk of sounding Hudmudgeonly, WTF is up with this look?  I have been seeing this a lot lately - at least in junk mail catalogs.

[Ebby Calvin]

Along those lines, and at the risk of sounding Hudmudgeonly, WTF is up with this look?  I have been seeing this a lot lately - at least in junk mail catalogs.

I agree.  Terrible shoes.

[HudsonHawk]

Are you referring to the collar?

If you're wearing a button-down collar and you're over the age of 12, you should be sent to fashion reform school.

[Limey]

If you're wearing a button-down collar and you're over the age of 12, you should be sent to fashion reform school.

Nope.  Button-downs are perfectly fine, as long as no tie is involved.  Much smarter than a golf shirt, or a formal shirt where the collar is left to flap open to the shoulders.

[HudsonHawk]

Don't you work at a company where business attire is thought to include short-sleeved button downs with ties by 87% of the male employees?

Unfortunately not.  87% of our male employees think their hipster jeans, untucked shirts and bowling shoes is appropriate attire.

[HudsonHawk]

Nope.  Button-downs are perfectly fine, as long as no tie is involved.  Much smarter than a golf shirt, or a formal shirt where the collar is left to flap open to the shoulders.

To each his own.  I cannot stand button-down collars on grown men.

[hostros7]

Unfortunately not.  87% of our male employees think their hipster jeans, untucked shirts and bowling shoes is appropriate attire.

Generally speaking, I think that males can encourage each other to dress appropriately for work by continually making fun of the offenses by the non-conformists until they acquiesce.  However, if you do this to a woman, best case scenario is that she spends the day crying in the bathroom and silently hates you for forever and the worst case scenario is somewhere between a bowling shoe to the groin and sexual harassment sensitivity training. 

[JimR]

Yeah, but do you wear your pajamas and flip flops? 

no. of course not.

[HudsonHawk]

no. of course not.

Well then you're not part of the hobo crowd I'm speaking of.  I know you have sense enough to know what is appropriate and what's not.  But pajamas and flip flops...I'm dead serious.  And they think there's nothing wrong with that because it's "casual". 

[Limey]

Well then you're not part of the hobo crowd I'm speaking of.  I know you have sense enough to know what is appropriate and what's not.  But pajamas and flip flops...I'm dead serious.  And they think there's nothing wrong with that because it's "casual". 

In a similar vein, when did it become ok to wear pyjamas on a plane?  I know people who still put on a blazer for a plane ride (admittedly, this character is a prick who does it to appear interesting/superior), but you're still going out in public.  I know you'll want to be comfortable in flight, but there's the whole thing about all the other parts of the journey that aren't on the plane with the door shut.

[Matt]

You can only be creative if you're dressed like a hobo?

Who says I'm dressed like a hobo? Nobody would ever mistake me for a homeless person in my work attire. And yes maintaining a creative mindset when you're uncomfortable or feel restrained by clothing is an issue a lot of people have.

[subnuclear]

Generally speaking, I think that males can encourage each other to dress appropriately for work by continually making fun of the offenses by the non-conformists until they acquiesce.  However, if you do this to a woman, best case scenario is that she spends the day crying in the bathroom and silently hates you for forever and the worst case scenario is somewhere between a bowling shoe to the groin and sexual harassment sensitivity training.  

I think because in my workplace the professional staff is about 90% male, the women can pretty much wear anything. One the females engineers wears some sort of LSU sweatshirt/golf-shirt every day. Another has dresses like a Swedish hippie with sandals and whatnot. The admins and HR ladies all dress up though.

[HudsonHawk]

In a similar vein, when did it become ok to wear pyjamas on a plane?  I know people who still put on a blazer for a plane ride (admittedly, this character is a prick who does it to appear interesting/superior), but you're still going out in public.  I know you'll want to be comfortable in flight, but there's the whole thing about all the other parts of the journey that aren't on the plane with the door shut.

I agree 100%.  I'm usually traveling for business, so I'm dressed like I would be for business (slacks and button up or golf shirt).  I miss the days when people cared about what they wore out in public.

[HudsonHawk]

Who says I'm dressed like a hobo? Nobody would ever mistake me for a homeless person in my work attire. And yes maintaining a creative mindset when you're uncomfortable or feel restrained by clothing is an issue a lot of people have.

Well then they need to get the fuck over it.  Einstein didn't feel stifled when he was wearing someting other than his flip flops and his wife beater undershirt.  I have to be "creative" too, and what I'm wearing never enters into the equation.

[Limey]

I miss the days when people cared about what they wore out in public.

I don't get mad at new fashion trends.  I think many look stupid (like the shirt/tie/jacket/shorts combo linked above), but I'm not in the fashion police and I'm ok with that.  FTR, when I said pyjamas on a plane, I meant actual pyjamas, not something casual that look pyjamarish.  My issue with how people dress is that it's a sign of respect for a person, and organisation or a situation.

If I go and see a prospect or client, I wear a suit and tie unless the people I am meeting have made it clear that they would prefer otherwise.  When vendors come and see me, and they aren't dressed at least in pants (not jeans), it kind of ticks me off.  I'm not talking about manual workers, I'm talking about insurance company reps.  Jeans, loafers and a golf shirt may fly in your office, but not in mine (at least, not unless it's Friday).

It's attention to detail like this that gets your attire unnoticed, by which I mean, no one will make a comment about what you were wearing after you left.  That's a good thing; like being an umpire whose name no one knows.  But if you wear something out of place for your surroundings, that's the first - and maybe only - thing people will remember about you.

[Matt]

Well then they need to get the fuck over it.  Einstein didn't feel stifled when he was wearing someting other than his flip flops and his wife beater undershirt.  I have to be "creative" too, and what I'm wearing never enters into the equation.

Luckily the majority of my industry disagrees with you and I'll get to keep dressing "like a hobo".  I also don't own a pair of flip flops or pajamas.

[HudsonHawk]

Luckily the majority of my industry disagrees with you and I'll get to keep dressing "like a hobo".  I also don't own a pair of flip flops or pajamas.

You may for a while, but the pendulum is swinging the other way, and pretty soon you'll have hoboed yourself into a suit and tie.  You'll have no one to blame but yourself when your creative faucets suddenly turn off when you're forced to wear left and right shoes from the same pair.

[jbm]

Well then they need to get the fuck over it.  Einstein didn't feel stifled when he was wearing someting other than his flip flops and his wife beater undershirt.  I have to be "creative" too, and what I'm wearing never enters into the equation.

Einstein in a wife-beater probably would have solved all of the world's mysteries.  

[HudsonHawk]

My issue with how people dress is that it's a sign of respect for a person, and organisation or a situation.

This...this right here!  People simply cannot grasp the fact that it's not all about them.  And for some reason, this phenomenom simply explodes when people get on an airplane.  Airplanes bring out the worst in peoples' selfishness.

[HudsonHawk]

Einstein in a wife-beater probably would have solved all of the world's mysteries.  

Any hack in a tweed jacket could have figured out relativity.  True enlightenment can only be obtained while wearing jeans with holes in them, apparently.

[JimR]

Who says I'm dressed like a hobo? Nobody would ever mistake me for a homeless person in my work attire. And yes maintaining a creative mindset when you're uncomfortable or feel restrained by clothing is an issue a lot of people have.

"feel restrained by clothing" may be the funniest thing i have ever seen written here. i'll bet you are creative as hell working in the nude.

[Noe]

"feel restrained by clothing" may be the funniest thing i have ever seen written here. i'll bet you are creative as hell working in the nude.

Really? I thought HH typing this: "Well then they need to get the fuck over it." was pretty damn funny in this thread. We should vote!

[BizidyDizidy]

Well then they need to get the fuck over it.  Einstein didn't feel stifled when he was wearing someting other than his flip flops and his wife beater undershirt.  I have to be "creative" too, and what I'm wearing never enters into the equation.

Arent you a reserve engineer

[HudsonHawk]

"feel restrained by clothing" may be the funniest thing i have ever seen written here. i'll bet you are creative as hell working in the nude.

I was wondering the same thing.  What, exactly, "creative" things can't you seem to muster up while wearing pants?

[HudsonHawk]

Arent you a reserve engineer

I am a geologist.  Don't ever fucking call me an engineer again, or I'll take away your visa card and you'll be forced to eat at Applebee's every meal for the rest of your miserable life.

[Matt]

I was wondering the same thing.  What, exactly, "creative" things can't you seem to muster up while wearing pants?

I do a lot of freelance work as well. Shall I suit up in my finest jacket and tie to sit at home?  Also you're still assuming I look like a hobo because I'm not wearing formal clothing. I assure you my shoes are of the left and right variety and none of my belongings are in a shopping cart.  When the pendulum swings, I will adapt but painting every single field of work with one broad brush isn't the way to go. Next year I WILL have to dress nicely and I will do what is expected of me.

[BizidyDizidy]

I am a geologist.  Don't ever fucking call me an engineer again, or I'll take away your visa card and you'll be forced to eat at Applebee's every meal for the rest of your miserable life.

Oh, a geologist. So by creative you mean just making stuff up.

[Noe]

I do a lot of freelance work as well. Shall I suit up in my finest jacket and tie to sit at home?  Also you're still assuming I look like a hobo because I'm not wearing formal clothing. I assure you my shoes are of the left and right variety and none of my belongings are in a shopping cart.  When the pendulum swings, I will adapt but painting every single field of work with one broad brush isn't the way to go. Next year I WILL have to dress nicely and I will do what is expected of me.

Coolest thing to see in the creative field: Guys who have ponytails or Mohawks, earrings, tattoos... and wear suits to meetings.

[HudsonHawk]

I do a lot of freelance work as well. Shall I suit up in my finest jacket and tie to sit at home?  Also you're still assuming I look like a hobo because I'm not wearing formal clothing. I assure you my shoes are of the left and right variety and none of my belongings are in a shopping cart.  When the pendulum swings, I will adapt but painting every single field of work with one broad brush isn't the way to go. Next year I WILL have to dress nicely and I will do what is expected of me.

Have you bothered to read any of this thread?  We're not talking about working from home or people who ride the garbage truck.  We're talking about professionals who work in an office environment, and otherwise interact with the public.  And I'm still curious as to what creativity you lose by wearing a pair of Dockers and a golf shirt.

[Noe]

Have you bothered to read any of this thread?  We're not talking about working from home or people who ride the garbage truck.  We're talking about professionals who work in an office environment, and otherwise interact with the public.  And I'm still curious as to what creativity you lose by wearing a pair of Dockers and a golf shirt.

How do you feel about the neo-employee who gets to the office when... well... they get there. 8-5 seems to be a way of the past nowadays.

[HudsonHawk]

Oh, a geologist. So by creative you mean just making stuff up.

I make up nothing.  I "interpret" based on the scientific evidence.  And fuck you.  What the fuck do you do...besides look down your nose at people who don't eat grilled fritos and boiled goose liver?

[BizidyDizidy]

What the hell shoe doesn't have left and right

[HudsonHawk]

How do you feel about the neo-employee who gets to the office when... well... they get there. 8-5 seems to be a way of the past nowadays.

I feel employees should get to the office when the other people with whom they need to interact get there.  If the office works 8-5, they need to get there at 8.  If the office works 10-7, they should get there by 10.  I get to work at 6:00 am, because that's when the people I need to talk to get to work. 

[BizidyDizidy]

I make up nothing.  I "interpret" based on the scientific evidence.  And fuck you.  What the fuck do you do...besides look down your nose at people who don't eat grilled fritos and boiled goose liver?

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

 I take what you do and try to make money off of it

[HudsonHawk]

What the hell shoe doesn't have left and right

My gripe isn't with wearing two left or two right shoes, it's wearing a left and a right from two different pairs.  Yes, this is apparently a trend.

[Matt]

Coolest thing to see in the creative field: Guys who have ponytails or Mohawks, earrings, tattoos... and wear suits to meetings.

On occasion I get to do that and its actually fun to do every once and awhile.

[HudsonHawk]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

 I take what you do and try to make money off of it

Unless you're a complete dumbass, I'm sure you're succeeding at it these days.

[Noe]

I feel employees should get to the office when the other people with whom they need to interact get there.  If the office works 8-5, they need to get there at 8.  If the office works 10-7, they should get there by 10.  I get to work at 6:00 am, because that's when the people I need to talk to get to work. 

Technology has made "interacting" office hours kind of obsolete... unless you have to have physical contact with the person. But companies nowadays feel that "Creativity" and "Inventiveness" is being lost in the modern day office because technology has made it easier to keep from "interacting".

[BudGirl]

This thread is great.

My only comment is that the dress code filters from the top down.  If people in the President and VPs office dress in a business manner or a casual manner, the staff will follow.

My boss wears a jacket every day.  I do not.  My boss is a VP, I am not.  I only wear flip flops from my car to the office, especially if my heel is not a wedge.  The landscaping/sidewalks is of the small rock variety and tears up heels.

But, I like to think I dress professionally.  I rarely to never wears hose anymore.  Most of the attorneys in our office do wear suits, but the rest of people on campus (with the exception of administrators) do not.  And on Fridays, we better be wearing red or be ready to be called out by President Khator for not doing so. 

[BudGirl]

My gripe isn't with wearing two left or two right shoes, it's wearing a left and a right from two different pairs.  Yes, this is apparently a trend.

Sometimes accidents happen.  Granted it was the same style shoe but in different colors (navy and black).  I didn't notice until later in the afternoon.  But, I have seen people with two different black heels, same kind of accident.

[Matt]

Have you bothered to read any of this thread?  We're not talking about working from home or people who ride the garbage truck.  We're talking about professionals who work in an office environment, and otherwise interact with the public.  And I'm still curious as to what creativity you lose by wearing a pair of Dockers and a golf shirt.

I work in an office environment and really I'm less comfortable in that type of attire which does affect how I work. And I'm damn good at what I do.

[BizidyDizidy]

Unless you're a complete dumbass, I'm sure you're succeeding at it these days.

 Well I got run out of the state so you decide

[Noe]

On occasion I get to do that and its actually fun to do every once and awhile.

Yup, makes for a good way to start a meeting when the guy walks in and is in his Sunday best. And these guys generally know what they heck they're doing and cut to the chase every time. "What do you want done, and when?  And of course, you know it's going to cost you this much... right?"

A-ha! The suit... it makes them greedy!

[HudsonHawk]

Technology has made "interacting" office hours kind of obsolete... unless you have to have physical contact with the person. But companies nowadays feel that "Creativity" and "Inventiveness" is being lost in the modern day office because technology has made it easier to keep from "interacting".

I realize that many people "interact" strictly by email, and a 4 minute conversation takes a week...but some people do need to talk and get information passed immediately.  Whether one's in the office or at home or on a plane or whathaveyou doesn't matter.  I mean people who need to talk to one another need to keep reasonably similar working hours.

And my company...who goes out of their way to make sure we're not creative and never think outside the box, is on this kick about our work environment not being "collaborative" enough.  The solution:  cubicles.

[HudsonHawk]

Well I got run out of the state so you decide

When does the statute of limitations expire?

[Noe]

I realize that many people "interact" strictly by email, and a 4 minute conversation takes a week...but some people do need to talk and get information passed immediately.  Whether one's in the office or at home or on a plane or whathaveyou doesn't matter.  I mean people who need to talk to one another need to keep reasonably similar working hours.

And my company...who goes out of their way to make sure we're not creative and never think outside the box, is on this kick about our work environment not being "collaborative" enough.  The solution:  cubicles.

Working hours and office hours are not the same in what I was talking about. I meant physically arriving at the office complex. That is now very lax... or is so in Austin. But no one shrugs having to take a meeting at any time of the day if they have to. But I've had meetings with people while they're on the way to an airport or even, when they're going through a drive-through fast food joint.  Business people believe in multi-tasking, but this may be going too far... or maybe not.

[HudsonHawk]

Sometimes accidents happen.  Granted it was the same style shoe but in different colors (navy and black).  I didn't notice until later in the afternoon.  But, I have seen people with two different black heels, same kind of accident.

I'm not talking about a mixing accident, or the ol' navy/black sock thing that sometimes happens to us guys because our wives scream bloody murder when we turn the light on in the bedroom at 4:30 in the morning...I'm talking about deliberately wearing two different shoes.

[HudsonHawk]

Working hours and office hours are not the same in what I was talking about. I meant physically arriving at the office complex. That is now very lax... or is so in Austin. But no one shrugs having to take a meeting at any time of the day if they have to. But I've had meetings with people while they're on the way to an airport or even, when they're going through a drive-through fast food joint.  Business people believe in multi-tasking, but this may be going too far... or maybe not.

Again, I feel people should work the hours of the day they need to, based on their need to work with other individuals, or their clients, or the public, or whatever their job demands.  Working 8am-5pm really isn't very productive if your clients are working midnight to 8 am.

[BudGirl]

I'm not talking about a mixing accident, or the ol' navy/black sock thing that sometimes happens to us guys because our wives scream bloody murder when we turn the light on in the bedroom at 4:30 in the morning...I'm talking about deliberately wearing two different shoes.

I know, just being contrary.

[HudsonHawk]

I work in an office environment and really I'm less comfortable in that type of attire which does affect how I work. And I'm damn good at what I do.

I'm less comfortable in anything other than a bathrobe.  That doesn't mean it's appropriate office attire, or that I can't do my job if I'm dressed any other way.

[HudsonHawk]

I know, just being contrary.

But have you noticed this trend too?

[Matt]

Again, I feel people should work the hours of the day they need to, based on their need to work with other individuals, or their clients, or the public, or whatever their job demands.  Working 8am-5pm really isn't very productive if your clients are working midnight to 8 am.

This I agree with. I'm there when the office opens and often times I'm in need of something from other co-workers who arrive whenever they feel like, sometimes 10 or 11, thereby putting some of my projects on hold until they mosey in.

[Matt]

I'm less comfortable in anything other than a bathrobe.  That doesn't mean it's appropriate office attire, or that I can't do my job if I'm dressed any other way.

Looking around the whole building where I work and I will find maybe a handful of people dressed more formally than I am.  That's including some top people in the company.  Therefore it IS appropriate attire for THIS working environment.

[Ron Brand]

I'm not talking about a mixing accident, or the ol' navy/black sock thing that sometimes happens to us guys because our wives scream bloody murder when we turn the light on in the bedroom at 4:30 in the morning...I'm talking about deliberately wearing two different shoes.

Yes, this is a new trend. In my daughter's middle school.

[Bench]

And I'm still curious as to what creativity you lose by wearing a pair of Dockers and a golf shirt.

I'm sure GBB would say you lose a lot of credibility.

[BudGirl]

But have you noticed this trend too?

Yes, but like I said if the boss is dressing that way the employees follow the lead.

I agree with you but I do love my casual Friday (which does not mean I can wear pajamas).

[NeilT]

Button down collars with ties look ridiculous. 

How odd.  I've been told I'm too old to wear button down collars, but in the 80s a brooks bros button down with a rep tie was the only acceptable dress for a young lawyer.

[NeilT]

We have pretty simple rules.  If you're meeting with the public, you wear a suit and tie, or at least a sport coat and a tie.  People are paying you to be a lawyer, so you damn well better look like a lawyer.  If you have no meetings you can do business casual, no denim. 

Within the last five years I dragged a young lawyer into a meeting with a client, and he showed up without a jacket. I told him that was unacceptable, though not during the meeting.  It is.  Clients deserve our respect.

I keep a throw-down tie and navy blazer in my office.  If a client calls and I'm in business casual I put them on, even if I'm wearing a button down shirt.

Is GBB open?

[NeilT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CAIntuNYVo

[HudsonHawk]

I'm sure GBB would say you lose a lot of credibility.

GBB is a stylish gentleman.  He can wear clothes that most us can't.

[HudsonHawk]

How odd.  I've been told I'm too old to wear button down collars, but in the 80s a brooks bros button down with a rep tie was the only acceptable dress for a young lawyer.

You ARE too old to wear a button down collar.  Of course, you're too old for a lot of things.

















[/quote]

[NeilT]

You ARE too old to wear a button down collar.  Of course, you're too old for a lot of things.

No shit.

[drew corleone]

Again, I feel people should work the hours of the day they need to, based on their need to work with other individuals, or their clients, or the public, or whatever their job demands.  Working 8am-5pm really isn't very productive if your clients are working midnight to 8 am.

I think that 8-5, in general, is arcane. You put it well: work when you need to work.

[Bench]

How odd.  I've been told I'm too old to wear button down collars, but in the 80s a brooks bros button down with a rep tie was the only acceptable dress for a young lawyer.

There are a few lawyers in my office that always wear button down collars because they think it looks more "common man." 

[NeilT]

There are a few lawyers in my office that always wear button down collars because they think it looks more "common man." 

Really?  it was always an east coast brooks brothers preppy sort of thing, not common man. 

[Mr. Happy]

There are a few lawyers in my office that always wear button down collars because they think it looks more "common man." 

Although in my life as an author, I tend to stay in shorts and tee-shirts, I still live and die with button-down shirts. I am an old line Brooks Brothers guy.

[Noe]

This I agree with. I'm there when the office opens and often times I'm in need of something from other co-workers who arrive whenever they feel like, sometimes 10 or 11, thereby putting some of my projects on hold until they mosey in.

Happens all the time. But that is why the company gives out smartphones so a impromptu meeting can be generate without the physical presence of the individual. All this to say that office work (I mean at a specific location) is not what it used to be.  Good or bad.

[subnuclear]

I think that 8-5, in general, is arcane. You put it well: work when you need to work.

8-5 will always be a center of gravity if you work with people with kids in school.

[HudsonHawk]

I think that 8-5, in general, is arcane. You put it well: work when you need to work.

It's not arcane. There are reasons why 8-5 is the standard workday, not the least of which is those are the hours the sun is up. It doesn't necessarily work for every job, but those are still the core business hours.

[Bench]

It's not arcane. There are reasons why 8-5 is the standard workday, not the least of which is those are the hours the sun is up. It doesn't necessarily work for every job, but those are still the core business hours.

Oh to have a job that routinely ended at 5 o'clock every day.

[Ebby Calvin]

Oh to have a job that routinely ended at 5 o'clock every day.

Amen.

[HudsonHawk]

Oh to have a job that routinely ended at 5 o'clock every day.

Oh to have a job that started at 8.  

[Andyzipp]

You ARE too old to wear a button down collar.  Of course, you're too old for a lot of things.

This is where you lose me.  I completely agree with dressing for the job you want. But button down collars are perfectly acceptable IF YOU'RE NOT WEARING A TIE. There is no age restriction (real or imagined).

From my "haberdasher"...the rule of thumb was that button-down collar shirts go with sport jackets and blazers. A traditional suit should be worn with anything but the button-down. If you want to keep your collar down with a suit, you can try a tab collar shirt where there is a bridge just beneath the tie that connects the two points.

[Noe]

This is where you lose me.  I completely agree with dressing for the job you want. But button down collars are perfectly acceptable IF YOU'RE NOT WEARING A TIE. There is no age restriction (real or imagined).

From my "haberdasher"...the rule of thumb was that button-down collar shirts go with sport jackets and blazers. A traditional suit should be worn with anything but the button-down. If you want to keep your collar down with a suit, you can try a tab collar shirt where there is a bridge just beneath the tie that connects the two points.

Fashionista!

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I literally don't know how I missed this thread yesterday.  To catch up:

1) Button-down collars are more casual than other collar styles.  They can be worn with or without ties, but wearing with a tie will almost inevitably look preppy or nerdy.

2) Shorts with a blazer is a joke perpetuated by GQ against nineteen year olds.

I hate the idea of business casual, even though my current everyday job all but demands it.  More casual at work means even more casual off-duty, which means going to the grocery store like a hobo, and dressing the same for weddings and funerals (which is inevitably insulting to one party or the other). Call it the tyranny of cargo shorts.

Honestly, my biggest peeve is the sneaker/dress shoe "hybrid".  Like Christian rock music, it does neither well.  Good dress shoes are worth the cost, look better and are actually more comfortable in the long run.  Everytime someone wears Sketchers with slacks, I throw up in my mouth a little.

[NeilT]

Button downs work better with bow ties because they're better at holding the tie in place.  Just saying.

[Andyzipp]

I literally don't know how I missed this thread yesterday.  To catch up:

1) Button-down collars are more casual than other collar styles.  They can be worn with or without ties, but wearing with a tie will almost inevitably look preppy or nerdy.

2) Shorts with a blazer is a joke perpetuated by GQ against nineteen year olds.

I hate the idea of business casual, even though my current everyday job all but demands it.  More casual at work means even more casual off-duty, which means going to the grocery store like a hobo, and dressing the same for weddings and funerals (which is inevitably insulting to one party or the other). Call it the tyranny of cargo shorts.

Honestly, my biggest peeve is the sneaker/dress shoe "hybrid".  Like Christian rock music, it does neither well.  Good dress shoes are worth the cost, look better and are actually more comfortable in the long run.  Everytime someone wears Sketchers with slacks, I throw up in my mouth a little.

Gabby Johnson is right!

[JimR]

We have pretty simple rules.  If you're meeting with the public, you wear a suit and tie, or at least a sport coat and a tie.  People are paying you to be a lawyer, so you damn well better look like a lawyer.  If you have no meetings you can do business casual, no denim. 

Within the last five years I dragged a young lawyer into a meeting with a client, and he showed up without a jacket. I told him that was unacceptable, though not during the meeting.  It is.  Clients deserve our respect.

I keep a throw-down tie and navy blazer in my office.  If a client calls and I'm in business casual I put them on, even if I'm wearing a button down shirt.

Is GBB open?

MLK is far different, and i do not agree that there is a single "lawyer look."

[Andyzipp]

MLK is far different, and i do not agree that there is a single "lawyer look."

Baker Botts has the same rules that Neil has mentioned, but there's a million flavors of lawyer types.

[Ebby Calvin]

I hate the idea of business casual, even though my current everyday job all but demands it.  More casual at work means even more casual off-duty, which means going to the grocery store like a hobo, and dressing the same for weddings and funerals (which is inevitably insulting to one party or the other). Call it the tyranny of cargo shorts.

So you prefer jackets/suits to business casual, or detest what business casual now means?

Like Christian rock music, it does neither well.

I laughed.

[NeilT]

Baker Botts has the same rules that Neil has mentioned, but there's a million flavors of lawyer types.

It's pretty standard for Houston, but our offices in Austin and San Antonio do different stuff.

[Bench]

Button downs work better with bow ties because they're better at holding the tie in place.  Just saying.

That's a whole different conversation.

[Ebby Calvin]

That's a whole different conversation.

Yes, that's called "Baseball-formal."

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

So you prefer jackets/suits to business casual, or detest what business casual now means?

I think that widespread business casual lead to an overall dumbing down of men's clothing, to the point where khakis are the dressiest thing that many guys can conceive of; back in the day, even gas station attendants were more dressed up than your average IT guy today.  If jackets were more widely required, guys would stop looking like they were in some arcane torture device when they wear one.  It's only uncomfortable because it's unfamiliar.  And it doesn't fit.

Also, wearing a blazer/suit jacket to the airport is just good sense.  More pockets = less stuff loose in the TSA bin.

[JimR]

I think that widespread business casual lead to an overall dumbing down of men's clothing, to the point where khakis are the dressiest thing that many guys can conceive of; back in the day, even gas station attendants were more dressed up than your average IT guy today.  If jackets were more widely required, guys would stop looking like they were in some arcane torture device when they wear one.  It's only uncomfortable because it's unfamiliar.  And it doesn't fit.

Also, wearing a blazer/suit jacket to the airport is just good sense.  More pockets = less stuff loose in the TSA bin.

spoken like someone who makes his money selling clothes.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

spoken like someone who makes his money selling clothes.

Almost. Hopefully by the end of the fall.

[Waldo]

Everytime someone wears Sketchers with slacks, I throw up in my mouth a little.

I have a coworker who wears slacks and Crocs (with socks).

[Noe]

I have a coworker who wears slacks and Crocs (with socks).

My wife:"For Father's Day, I should just go out and buy you some new casual wear, including new casual shorts and polo shirts"
Me "Why? I have perfectly good stuff to wear to be casual at work and around the house (Yes, I work from home 90%  of the time, but I dress casual and never in PJs... NEVER!)"
My wife: "You know Justin, the homeless guy who comes to our offices from time to time?"
Me: "Yeah, so..."
My wife: "He wears better clothes than you."
Me "ouch"

(I was wearing my cargo shorts, an grey t-shirt I love, and my "dressy" sandals... and this was a Saturday when I laze around the house - so this is the frame of reference for my wife, who has a similar fashion sense as HH).

[Limey]

More casual at work means even more casual off-duty, which means going to the grocery store like a hobo, and dressing the same for weddings and funerals (which is inevitably insulting to one party or the other). Call it the tyranny of cargo shorts.

I went to a funeral recently or, more correctly, a memorial service at a church.  Not thinking about it, I put on my charcoal grey pinstripe suit, a white shirt and a black tie.  I was gobsmacked to find that I was the only person wearing a tie (black doesn't matter - not everyone has one and they're only used rarely), and one a only a two or three men wearing a jacket.  I found the level of attire to be incredibly disrespectful to the deceased.

Oddly, the most disrespectfully dressed men were the older ones.  Apparently, they thought khakis and a golf shirt were ok.  I only hope that I made them feel awkward, but I fear not.

[Limey]

I have a coworker who wears slacks and Crocs (with socks).

That is unacceptable anywhere, not just at work.

Kill him.

[Noe]

I went to a funeral recently or, more correctly, a memorial service at a church.  Not thinking about it, I put on my charcoal grey pinstripe suit, a white shirt and a black tie.  I was gobsmacked to find that I was the only person wearing a tie (black doesn't matter - not everyone has one and they're only used rarely), and one a only a two or three men wearing a jacket.  I found the level of attire to be incredibly disrespectful to the deceased.

Oddly, the most disrespectfully dressed men were the older ones.  Apparently, they thought khakis and a golf shirt were ok.  I only hope that I made them feel awkward, but I fear not.

I unfortunately went to two funerals in the last two months for two kids, one an 8 year old who died of cancer (awesome kid, really miss little Tanner) and the other a 16 year old who committed suicide (tragic, my wife knew the boy and his mother well, I didn't). For Tanner's funeral, he left a wish behind that at his funeral 1) Nobody cry and 2) Everybody wear UT orange. Over 500 people attended and it was a sea of orange. You would have thought it was a rally for the Longhorns and not a funeral.

The other funeral was sad and painful to attend. So I was putting on my black suit and tie and my wife tells me "You don't have to wear a tie any more to funerals... in fact, most people just wear a nice pair of slacks and a nice shirt... wear your blue shirt with your dark grey slacks". I thought I was going to look well out of place, but she was right... nobody was wearing black nor had a tie on. Everyone had almost the same style as me, nice slacks, nice shirt look.

[das]

Along those lines, and at the risk of sounding Hudmudgeonly, WTF is up with this look?  I have been seeing this a lot lately - at least in junk mail catalogs.

Late to the game here.  That look only works in Bermuda and only if knee socks and a crest on the jacket are a part of the ensemble.  I'm guessing that guy and anyone who wears something similar will eventually look back on that style with the same regard I have when I look at pictures of myself from the 70's.

[Ron Brand]

I've noticed the same thing and it's seemed very odd to me. I think I first noticed it at church services, which seemed to almost overnight become some kind of casually dressed effort to be more like a family gathering than a worship service. The funerals I've attended recently have been the same way, except the older folks were in at least a jacket and tie while the under-50 crowd felt comfortable to show up in jeans and boots.

Is this an attempt to make it easier for people to participate, at the cost of ceremony?

[das]

Who says I'm dressed like a hobo? Nobody would ever mistake me for a homeless person in my work attire. And yes maintaining a creative mindset when you're uncomfortable or feel restrained by clothing is an issue a lot of people have.

I worked for an Ad company in California for 4 years.  Half the staff looked like they were cast in Mad Men, half looked like Jeff Spicoli.  Unsurprisingly, the Mad Men clones are the ones that 1) engendered confidence from the customer regardless of similar output from the others and 2) had career tracks on a much, much steeper slope than the Spicolii.

[BudGirl]

I would say somber colors rather than bright colors are the norm for funerals. 

I find it different for a rosary than a funeral mass - Catholic services.  The rosary tends to be later in the evening so it looks more like business attire.  The funeral tends to be more formal.

[Ron Brand]

I worked for an Ad company in California for 4 years.  Half the staff looked like they were cast in Mad Men, half looked like Jeff Spicoli.  Unsurprisingly, the Mad Men clones are the ones that 1) engendered confidence from the customer regardless of similar output from the others and 2) had career tracks on a much, much steeper slope than the Spicolii.

Exactly. Sometimes the Spicolis look that way because they've got fuck-you money, but more likely they're going to be the flameouts and the Mad Men will be there for years. It takes discipline as well as creativity.

[Limey]

If jackets were more widely required, guys would stop looking like they were in some arcane torture device when they wear one.  It's only uncomfortable because it's unfamiliar.  And it doesn't fit.

This is the issue, I think.  A lot of people just don't have these things in their wardrobe anymore and, if they do, it's likely old and ill-fitting.  Especially the formal shirt which looks more like a cotton garrote.

[NeilT]

I would say somber colors rather than bright colors are the norm for funerals. 

Is this true for clown funerals?  Somehow the shades of grey wig just doesn't work as well as the yellow and orange.  And I hate the formal black clown nose.

[Limey]

I would say somber colors rather than bright colors are the norm for funerals. 

I agree.  I think people should've made an effort and, even if you don't have a black tie, at least wear a soberly-coloured one.  Such events aren't about the comfort of the guests.

[subnuclear]

I agree.  I think people should've made an effort and, even if you don't have a black tie, at least wear a soberly-coloured one.  Such events aren't about the comfort of the guests.

I never been to a funeral when this wasn't true. Its weird to hear about.

[BudGirl]

Is this true for clown funerals?  Somehow the shades of grey wig just doesn't work as well as the yellow and orange.  And I hate the formal black clown nose.

How you handle your shades of gray is your business.  I don't need to know about it.

[Waldo]

This is the issue, I think.  A lot of people just don't have these things in their wardrobe anymore and, if they do, it's likely old and ill-fitting.  Especially the formal shirt which looks more like a cotton garrote.

I own exactly one suit, purchased before my sister's wedding nine years ago.  Going out and buying a new suit is pretty low on my list of ways to spend $300-400.

[MusicMan]

Is this true for clown funerals?  Somehow the shades of grey wig just doesn't work as well as the yellow and orange.  And I hate the formal black clown nose.

Clown funeral?

[BizidyDizidy]

I own exactly one suit, purchased before my sister's wedding nine years ago.  Going out and buying a new suit is pretty low on my list of ways to spend $300-400.

GBB wouldn't take a dump on your suit for $300

[Limey]

I own exactly one suit, purchased before my sister's wedding nine years ago.  Going out and buying a new suit is pretty low on my list of ways to spend $300-400.

One suit every nine years works out to $40/year.  I agree that it's not an everyday need, but when you have to wear one it's worth wearing one that fits otherwise you might as well not bother.  Wearing an ill-fitting suit looks like you just grabbed some old clothes out of the back of your closet, which is exactly what you did.

I own two suits, two sport coats - all for work - and a tux.  The tux cost me $400 at the Men's Wearhouse.  Because they were having one of their ridiculous sales, I also got another suit of equal value for exactly free.  The tux I have worn three times in two years, and so I have saved a fortune on tux rental, plus I have a $400 suit too!  It's an investment, not an expense.

[Andyzipp]

I own exactly one suit, purchased before my sister's wedding nine years ago.  Going out and buying a new suit is pretty low on my list of ways to spend $300-400.

They make suits for $300?

[NeilT]

Clown funeral?

That's funny.

[Ron Brand]

I wore a suit every working day for fifteen years. When I started my present job, I wore a suit every working day for the first year, although everyone else was wearing polos and Dockers - I was trying to show that I was serious about the job and that not only could I do the work, I could look like I cared and was respectful too.  There used to be a tradeoff - if you didn't look like you merited respect, you'd never advance and you'd have to work even harder to gain respect. Dressing well made a big difference in how people perceived you and your commitment to the workplace. Celebration dragons were right out.

First day after one year, after more than a little commentary regarding the suits, I stopped. It's been ten years now, ten years of polos and Dockers and jeans and Astro shirts and burnt orange polos and I'm very happy with it. It isn't for everyone or for every situation, but I'm glad that it works well for me.

[Bench]

Going out and buying a new suit is pretty low on my list of ways to spend $300-400.

If you're only spending $300 buying a suit shouldn't even be on your list. 

[das]

This thread is great.

My only comment is that the dress code filters from the top down.  If people in the President and VPs office dress in a business manner or a casual manner, the staff will follow.

I got my business attire education the first week I worked for Lockheed Martin.  In super-conservative Washington, DC, no less.  I stepped into an elevator with the friend that suggested me for the job.  It was a Friday, he had no client interaction that day and he was wearing slacks, a sportcoat and a tie.  The president of our operating unit stepped onto the elevator a couple of floors up, took one look at my friend and proceeded to berate him about his attire for the length of the uncomfortable ride up 10-or-so additional floors.  While the interaction was shocking for me, a new twenty-something manager in a Fortune 100 company, I was able to pick out a couple of useful tidbits from the tirade:

- Dress for any contingency.  In the business world, if you have to wear a suit sometimes, wear one all the time unless the situation specifically prescribes lesser attire
- Dress one level up.  Dress for the job you want, not the one you have.  The decision makers at that next level absolutely notice.
- In the business world, being overdressed is always forgiven.  Being underdressed rarely is.

Over the years, I've come to some other conclusions.  They've worked for me in my somewhat-narrow business discipline (Fortune 500 organizations / government).

- Whether you like it or not, if you are in a professional job, you represent your employer, even when off the clock or in some semi-work action like travelling.  Some of the most important and profitable work a business performs and connections someone makes is while offsite/in transit/by chance/unplanned.  Dress like a slob and you reduce the chance of that happening.  Two of the three most significant professional occurrences in my career have started with some unknown person asking me, "so, what do you do?" and neither of them would have happened if I was not appropriately dressed.
- The clothes make the man (or woman).  While a somewhat unsavory thought in today's culture of manufactured style-independence, your personal brand-image does indeed matter.    Clothes and image will not get you there if you are lacking skill and drive.  If you have skill and drive but lack in the personal image area, it very well may preclude success.  It is the very rare person that can fail miserably in the image department and succeed in the business department.  If you think you are that person, you are probably not.  
- Surprisingly (to me, at least), all of this applies to men more than women.  Men notice attire flubs more often, more readily harangue colleagues for mistakes and take historical personal image into account, more so than women, for significant actions like awarding new business, hiring and promotions.  I’ve found this to be the case everywhere; the Middle-East, Europe, Asia and here in North America.  Dunno about South America.

My experience, anyways…

[Gizzmonic]

- Surprisingly (to me, at least), all of this applies to men more than women.  Men notice attire flubs more often, more readily harangue colleagues for mistakes and take historical personal image into account, more so than women, for significant actions like awarding new business, hiring and promotions.  I’ve found this to be the case everywhere; the Middle-East, Europe, Asia and here in North America.  Dunno about South America.

My experience, anyways…

After 7 pages of dudes whining about what other dudes wear, this is surprising to you?

[Waldo]

If you're only spending $300 buying a suit shouldn't even be on your list. 

I think my suit was in the $300-400 range at Penney's.  If suits are more expensive than that then that only reinforces my point.

[Bench]

I think my suit was in the $300-400 range at Penney's.  If suits are more expensive than that then that only reinforces my point.

I'm just teasing you.  Most of my suits are in that range, but rather than Penney's or Joseph A. Banks you can get much nicer suits, such as Ralph Lauren from Macy's online or at outlets for that range and then have them tailored locally. 

[Limey]

After 7 pages of dudes whining about what other dudes wear, this is surprising to you?

I think men notice other men's fashion faux pas.  I think women notice other women's fashion faux pas.  I think men notice women's fashion faux pas when they are displaying stuff we don't want to see.

[sporadic]

I think men notice women's fashion faux pas when they are displaying stuff we don't want to see.

even moreso if they are displaying stuff we do want to see while in front of our spouse.

Can you believe she is wearing that white top with a red bra?  TACKY!!!

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I'm just teasing you.  Most of my suits are in that range, but rather than Penney's or Joseph A. Banks you can get much nicer suits, such as Ralph Lauren from Macy's online or at outlets for that range and then have them tailored locally. 

With the advent of eBay, getting a $2000 suit for $600-700 or a $1000 suit for $300-400 is a piece of cake.

[chuck]

I hope this is a long way off but the next family funeral I attend if some idiot shows up looking like he's going to the beach or the rodeo I'm going to fucking throw his ignorant ass right out of the church. Or the crematorium or wherever we are.

I guess it's been a blessedly long time since I attended a funeral but I am appalled at what I've learned here. I mean, what the fuck?

[HudsonHawk]

One suit every nine years works out to $40/year.  I agree that it's not an everyday need, but when you have to wear one it's worth wearing one that fits otherwise you might as well not bother.  Wearing an ill-fitting suit looks like you just grabbed some old clothes out of the back of your closet, which is exactly what you did.

I own two suits, two sport coats - all for work - and a tux.

I own about 6 suits, but only two of which currently fit me. I own another three or four sportcoats, and probably a dozen non-embarrassing ties. I don't wear them everyday, but i wear the sportcoats regularly. I actually enjoy dressing up when I go out in public. 

I would like to buy a tux, but am still waffling. I figure a standard tux with one black and one white dinner jacket would pretty well satisfy most semi-formal engagements I would encounter.

[Limey]

I would like to buy a tux, but am still waffling. I figure a standard tux with one black and one white dinner jacket would pretty well satisfy most semi-formal engagements I would encounter.

I just have a standard black tux.  Never felt the need for a white jacket.

[NeilT]

I just have a standard black tux.  Never felt the need for a white jacket.

Only when I need to hide my beretta.

[HudsonHawk]

I just have a standard black tux.  Never felt the need for a white jacket.

That is entirely up to the wearer. White dinner jackets were designed as a warm-weather alternative to the standard black one. In warm or tropical climates, it's perfectly acceptable to wear a white one any time you'd wear a black one. In Houston, you can wear a white jacket most of the year. I happen to think they look magnificent, and have a sort of 007 style to them.

[Bench]

I would like to buy a tux, but am still waffling. I figure a standard tux with one black and one white dinner jacket would pretty well satisfy most semi-formal engagements I would encounter.

I bought a tux before my wedding last year and have now worn it three times, with a fourth occasion coming up next week.  It's been well worth it.

[Limey]

I bought a tux before my wedding last year and have now worn it three times, with a fourth occasion coming up next week.  It's been well worth it.

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling need.  Once you have a tux, you find yourself going to events that require one.

[HudsonHawk]

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling need.  Once you have a tux, you find yourself going to events that require one.

Not to mention they come in handy when you and your lady play "secret agent man" on Friday nights.

[NeilT]

just be warned, they shrink in your closet.

[Guinness]

I got my business attire education the first week I worked for Lockheed Martin.My experience, anyways…

Apropos of nothing at all in this thread, your avatar, Das, bobs it's head almost exactly to "She's So Cold".

[Savage]

I think men notice other men's fashion faux pas.  I think women notice other women's fashion faux pas.  I think men notice women's fashion faux pas when they are displaying stuff we don't want to see.

This.  I wear a suit almost every day (very conservative investment bank).  Even if the meeting is business casual, I overdress because it's difficult enough for a woman to get appropriate respect in my field and so a step up only helps with the gravitas.  My male analysts (just out of college) generally wear slacks and a dress shirt and it's almost like a uniform.  But every year I have to sit the female analysts down and explain to them what counts as appropriate attire.  I wonder where their mothers have been their whole lives when I have to explain to them: you need to wear a bra, flip flops are not shoes and i shouldn't see your midriff, down your shirt or up your skirt.  My explanation seems to alter their attire about 50% of the time, and the other 50% I just won't put on my deals because they clearly have no judgment and don't know how to take instruction. 

[Noe]

This.  I wear a suit almost every day (very conservative investment bank).  Even if the meeting is business casual, I overdress because it's difficult enough for a woman to get appropriate respect in my field and so a step up only helps with the gravitas.  My male analysts (just out of college) generally wear slacks and a dress shirt and it's almost like a uniform.  But every year I have to sit the female analysts down and explain to them what counts as appropriate attire.  I wonder where their mothers have been their whole lives when I have to explain to them: you need to wear a bra, flip flops are not shoes and i shouldn't see your midriff, down your shirt or up your skirt.  My explanation seems to alter their attire about 50% of the time, and the other 50% I just won't put on my deals because they clearly have no judgment and don't know how to take instruction.  

I once worked for an International company based out of Switzerland (even though the owners were German). One of the main graphic designers (for software UIs) was from Germany. She did some fantastic work, but I had never met her before. So after about a year or so working at the company, she decided to make a trip to Austin and then San Francisco to choose where she was going to office next. She wanted to be in the US because she was tired of being in Europe.  Her name was Uta. So when she arrived to our office, we were not prepared for what walked through our doors. At first I thought maybe she was a performer for a punk band leftover from the night before on sixth street (that was where our offices were at the time).

But she came right up to me and said in broken English "hello, I'm UTA". Awesome... she had absolutely no fashion sense to begin with and the piercing on her nose and lip coupled with her wild hair style were a bit much for my office decorum taste. But after several days of her bouncing around in what can only be described by me as uber grunge wear, I was kind of glad she was moving on to San Francisco to check out the offices there. We had an office in Boston, Austin, and San Francisco. On her last day, she took her little military jacket off for the first time and she was wearing a very unique t-shirt with no sleeves. I had a cup of coffee with her that day and while chatting away, I noticed when she raised her arms that she did not shave her pits.

Ewwww... very gross.

She chose San Francisco and that was cool by me. She fit in nicely there. several months later while in San Francisco, I met up with her for several days of collaborative work. Still the same, only now a bit less militant looking and more office casual (albeit San Francisco warehouse district office casual). A lady who worked in our offices there took her under her wing and helped her get a little more acclimated to office wear as it were. Not sure if the arm pits were still hairy or not... didn't ask to check. All I know was what she was when I first met her was ten times worse than whatever has been described in this thread as unacceptable. In San Fran, she was merely acceptable in the surrounding area as it were but would probably still be decried in here for her style.

And yes, she was one of the best designers I've ever met.

[NeilT]

This.  I wear a suit almost every day (very conservative investment bank).  Even if the meeting is business casual, I overdress because it's difficult enough for a woman to get appropriate respect in my field and so a step up only helps with the gravitas.  My male analysts (just out of college) generally wear slacks and a dress shirt and it's almost like a uniform.  But every year I have to sit the female analysts down and explain to them what counts as appropriate attire.  I wonder where their mothers have been their whole lives when I have to explain to them: you need to wear a bra, flip flops are not shoes and i shouldn't see your midriff, down your shirt or up your skirt.  My explanation seems to alter their attire about 50% of the time, and the other 50% I just won't put on my deals because they clearly have no judgment and don't know how to take instruction. 

Are you sure about that cleavage thing?  I figured all women had gotten together a few years ago and decided that lots of cleavage was always appropriate.

[das]

Apropos of nothing at all in this thread, your avatar, Das, bobs it's head almost exactly to "She's So Cold".

That's funny.  My 12 year old daughter loves the .gif and put it on her iPod.  When she is playing music, she'll open it up and resize it to "match" the song.  The bigger you resize it on iPxx products, the slower it bobs so she can match the tempo of pretty much anything.  The kids these days...

[das]

Are you sure about that cleavage thing?  I figured all women had gotten together a few years ago and decided that lots of cleavage was always appropriate.

That's the way it is here in DC unless you are up on the hill.  You see $1k suits with hems at the knee but stuff busting out all over up top.  It seems to get worse (or better, depending on your perspective) the older the ladies get, too.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling need.  Once you have a tux, you find yourself going to events that require one.

I'd like to believe that this is true, but if I wore a tux to most of the more dressy events that I attend, I'd be "the guy in the tux" not "the well-dressed guy".  Maybe it's an age thing that will change as I get older.

[HudsonHawk]

I'd like to believe that this is true, but if I wore a tux to most of the more dressy events that I attend, I'd be "the guy in the tux" not "the well-dressed guy".  Maybe it's an age thing that will change as I get older.

"Dressy" doesn't mean a tux. A tux is appropriate for "semi-formal" or "black tie". You just need to attend swankier events. Like Limey and Bench.

[MusicMan]

"Dressy" doesn't mean a tux. A tux is appropriate for "semi-formal" or "black tie". You just need to attend swankier events. Like Limey and Bench.

I tend to reserve myself for white-tie events.

[HudsonHawk]

I tend to reserve myself for white-tie events.

That's just how you roll.  I've dressed true "formal" twice in my life, both in weddings, both in traditional daytime formal though, not white tie.

[WakePhil]

I literally don't know how I missed this thread yesterday.  To catch up:

1) Button-down collars are more casual than other collar styles.  They can be worn with or without ties, but wearing with a tie will almost inevitably look preppy or nerdy.

I wear button down collars frequently and I may actually prefer that others I work with do too considering the prevalance of people wearing non-button down collars without collar stays. Every now and then I've lost or forgotten collar stays, but at least I'll find some big paper clips or cut up an old hotel key that will suffice for the day. Most people I see don't seem to care at all...just let those suckers fly.

[JackAstro]

Damn it, I really should have been following this thread before I got dressed this morning. The good news is that I would never hire someone better dressed than me, so I don't have to worry about them taking my job.

[JackAstro]

With the advent of eBay, getting a $2000 suit for $600-700 or a $1000 suit for $300-400 is a piece of cake.

This sounds excellent. How does one do that without accidentally buying a $75 suit for $400?

[HudsonHawk]

This sounds excellent. How does one do that without accidentally buying a $75 suit for $400?

Consult our residnet haberdasher.  Didn't he give you his card?

[austro]

Consult our residnet haberdasher.

This is good advice. So is this: putthison.com.

[HudsonHawk]

This is good advice. So is this: putthison.com.

I love the "Hats For Non-douches". I could start a whole 'nuther thread about hats. First rule: if you're hat isn't functional, you probably look like a douchebag.

[Limey]

This is good advice. So is this: putthison.com.

I like this site.  See here on business casual specifically.

[Limey]

First rule: if you're hat isn't functional, you probably look like a douchebag.

Probably?

[subnuclear]

If you are outside and don't have much hair then a hat is almost always functional, but its still hard not to look like a douchebag.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Put This On is fantastic.  They're like the anti-GQ (where GQ represents fashion and trend chasing, not the legit stuff that GQ sometimes does), very practical, frugal and detail-obsessed.  Perfect place to go to learn how to dress like a grown-ass man.

[HudsonHawk]

Probably?

Probably, because there are a handful of guys who can pull off a hat purely for fashion reasons.  I'm not one of them.  99% of men out there are not. 

[HudsonHawk]

If you are outside and don't have much hair then a hat is almost always functional, but its still hard not to look like a douchebag.

You should not be wearing a hat any place *not* outside, unless you are a) a contestent in an indoor sporting event and it's part of the required uniform, or b) an actor in a stage play.  But I agree, if your hair is thinning, a hat is indispensible, both in the sun and in the cold.

[Ebby Calvin]

I love the "Hats For Non-douches". I could start a whole 'nuther thread about hats. First rule: if you're hat isn't functional, you probably look like a douchebag.

Proof

[Noe]

Probably?

"Say what?!?" - Samuel L. Jackson

[Noe]

Probably, because there are a handful of guys who can pull off a hat purely for fashion reasons.  I'm not one of them.  99% of men out there are not. 

"Thank You!" - Samuel L. Jackson

[Noe]

Proof

"Proof?" - Samuel L. Jackson

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I like this site.  See here on business casual specifically.

What the hell is wrong with pleated slacks?

[HudsonHawk]

What the hell is wrong with pleated slacks?

Nothing is wrong with pleated slacks.  The author of this blog is a 20-something with like a 28-inch waiste.  We're not all built that way.  He also suggests that you have your polo shirts altered to fit snug through the middle, and that if you buy a tux for your senior HS prom, you can wear it the rest of your life, because you're "done growing".  So understand the source here.

[HudsonHawk]

"Proof?" - Samuel L. Jackson

Sorry, Samuel L. Jackson looks like a douchebag in those hats.

[BUWebguy]

I like this site.  See here on business casual specifically.

So bouncing off this... What qualifies as "good shoes" in a khaki/polo/button-down environment?

[HudsonHawk]

So bouncing off this... What qualifies as "good shoes" in a khaki/polo/button-down environment?

Shoes that don't look like you've rented them.  Black or brown leather, toe cap, rounded toe.  No stripes or logos.

THESE would be acceptable.  THESE would not be.

[Noe]

So bouncing off this... What qualifies as "good shoes" in a khaki/polo/button-down environment?

Docker slacks? Well, there are docker shoes!

[Noe]

Sorry, Samuel L. Jackson looks like a douchebag in those hats.

It's not so much he looks like a douchebag in your opinion, but that I don't think I would say that to his face. On the internet, yes, maybe... to his face... no, never!

[Limey]

It's not so much he looks like a douchebag in your opinion, but that I don't think I would say that to his face. On the internet, yes, maybe... to his face... no, never!

You know that when he plays a total badass that he's only acting...right.  Which is why he can also get his ass kicked by Eddie Murphy with a broom.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Shoes that don't look like you've rented them.  Black or brown leather, toe cap, rounded toe.  No stripes or logos.

THESE would be acceptable.  THESE would not be.

I've worn Johnston Murphy shoes for the last 15 years.  While I still like their shoes, both for quality and comfort, the overall quality of their shoes below the price-point you linked has gone down dramatically.  It's very disappointing what they have done with their single piece, rubber soled shoes.  The uppers are still quality, but the sole is crap.

[OregonStrosFan]

You know that when he plays a total badass that he's only acting...right.  Which is why he can also get his ass kicked by Eddie Murphy with a broom.

And Eddie (or at least him brother Charlie) got his ass kicked by Prince in a game of basketball [NSFW clip of Charlie Murphy from Chappelle show]... What does that say about Samuel L. Jackson?!?

[HudsonHawk]

I've worn Johnston Murphy shoes for the last 15 years.  While I still like their shoes, both for quality and comfort, the overall quality of their shoes below the price-point you linked has gone down dramatically.  It's very disappointing what they have done with their single piece, rubber soled shoes.  The uppers are still quality, but the sole is crap.

I have a couple of pairs of Johnston & Murphy, and I love them all.  They're fairly new, last 10 years, and I've no problems with the soles.  I also like Rockports for comfort, but that comfort comes at a cost, which is style.  The best pair of casual shoes I ever owned was a pair of Ralph Lauren tasseled loafers.  I had them re-soled three times and the tassels replaced twice (damn dogs).  They finally just looked too worn to look good.  But man those were good shoes.

[Limey]

I've worn Johnston Murphy shoes for the last 15 years.  While I still like their shoes, both for quality and comfort, the overall quality of their shoes below the price-point you linked has gone down dramatically.  It's very disappointing what they have done with their single piece, rubber soled shoes.  The uppers are still quality, but the sole is crap.

I hate rubber-soled "dress" shoes.  It's also very hard to find leather-soled dress shoes at a decent price.

One thing that shocked me when I moved here was the price of men's shoes.  Mostly everything else was cheaper here, except that.  I was used to buying a good brand of hand made shoes in London for about 60 quid ($100).  Full leather uppers and sole.  I was in need of shoes and was gobsmacked that anything near-equivalent cost $400+.

This was after having had my English shoes repaired, which is a hole nother story...  In England, I'd walk into a shoe bar, hand over my shoes and have a full sole and heel replacement done while I wait.  About 15 mins if they weren't busy.  Here, I went to the Shoe Hospital, handed over my shoes and was asked when I want them back.  "I'll come back at around 5," I said.  "Umm...we can have them ready for you in 8 days," was the reply.  WTF?  Oh, and the repair was insanely expensive too.

[HudsonHawk]

I hate rubber-soled "dress" shoes.  It's also very hard to find leather-soled dress shoes at a decent price.

One thing that shocked me when I moved here was the price of men's shoes.  Mostly everything else was cheaper here, except that.  I was used to buying a good brand of hand made shoes in London for about 60 quid ($100).  Full leather uppers and sole.  I was in need of shoes and was gobsmacked that anything near-equivalent cost $400+.

This was after having had my English shoes repaired, which is a hole nother story...  In England, I'd walk into a shoe bar, hand over my shoes and have a full sole and heel replacement done while I wait.  About 15 mins if they weren't busy.  Here, I went to the Shoe Hospital, handed over my shoes and was asked when I want them back.  "I'll come back at around 5," I said.  "Umm...we can have them ready for you in 8 days," was the reply.  WTF?  Oh, and the repair was insanely expensive too.

Cobbling is more of a hobby than a profession here on this side of the pond.  Still, "insanely expensive"?  I've had my leather-soled shoes re-soled and heeled at the Shoe Hospital numerous time, usually for around $10-15/shoe.  I didn't find it all that objectionable, but then again I don't have much of a frame of reference.

[OregonStrosFan]

I hate rubber-soled "dress" shoes.  It's also very hard to find leather-soled dress shoes at a decent price.

Used to be that was as well.  However, given the drizzle that is Portland (most of the time, today being a glorious exception), leather soled shoes started becoming impractical and I've grown accustomed to wearing nice rubber-soled dress shoes (and actually prefer them now).

[OregonStrosFan]

but then again I don't have much of a frame of reference.

Just quoting the above for potential future reference.  Nothing to see here folks, carry on!

[hostros7]

So bouncing off this... What qualifies as "good shoes" in a khaki/polo/button-down environment?

To elaborate on HH's point a bit, I think that captoe lace up shoes are fine with slacks but don't work with khakis.  If you want to wear khakis (and, by khaki, I assume you mean something like a twill/cotton chino), I would wear something more in one of these styles:

http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF44000_1_40000000001_-1

http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF49600_1_40000000001_-1

http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF8958C_1_40000000001_-1

Or a nice driving moc if you were wearing said pants out of the office or in the office on a more casual day like these http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/producti_SF45111_1_40000000001_-1

Basically, "khakis" are a step below business casual.  Business casual, in a strict sense, requires a nicer fabric slack/trouser (basically, something that was dry clean only).  I would wear a lace up, nice leather captoe shoe with those kind of pants, but think they don't work as well with just a pair of polo chinos.  

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I've worn Johnston Murphy shoes for the last 15 years.  While I still like their shoes, both for quality and comfort, the overall quality of their shoes below the price-point you linked has gone down dramatically.  It's very disappointing what they have done with their single piece, rubber soled shoes.  The uppers are still quality, but the sole is crap.

J&M and Cole Haan do most of their manufacture in China now.  It's all about hitting a certain price point and staying there.  The extra dough for Allen Edmonds is worth it, plus they have a refinishing/restoring service that will do a helluva lot more than just put new soles on.

[HudsonHawk]

J&M and Cole Haan do most of their manufacture in China now.  It's all about hitting a certain price point and staying there.  The extra dough for Allen Edmonds is worth it, plus they have a refinishing/restoring service that will do a helluva lot more than just put new soles on.

Cole Haan went to shit when Nike bought them, if you ask me.

[Andyzipp]

Nicest pair of shoes I own are a pair of Gordon Rush oxfords.  I'm poor.  I wear Clarks quite a bit. 

[HudsonHawk]

The extra dough for Allen Edmonds is worth it, plus they have a refinishing/restoring service that will do a helluva lot more than just put new soles on.

This is a good looking men's dress shoe

[hostros7]

This is a good looking men's dress shoe

I have the "park avenue" and have been very happy with them.  They have held up well, and, as GBB mentioned, when they finally go, Allen Edmonds offers a comprehensive refurb service for (I think) around $100, which isn't much more than going to Shoe Hospital for a resole and shine. 

[Ron Brand]

Fuck this shit. I'm going to start dressing like Sun Ra.

[HudsonHawk]

Nicest pair of shoes I own are a pair of Gordon Rush oxfords.  I'm poor.  I wear Clarks quite a bit. 

Clarks are fine.  I have several pairs of Bostonian, which I think are pretty much the same thing.  They were good shoes.

[HudsonHawk]

I have the "park avenue" and have been very happy with them.  They have held up well, and, as GBB mentioned, when they finally go, Allen Edmonds offers a comprehensive refurb service for (I think) around $100, which isn't much more than going to Shoe Hospital for a resole and shine. 

The "park avenue" are nice too, but I really like the perforated seam on the "5th avenue".  It's just the right amount of style without being gaudy.  As for $100 at the shoe hospital...seriously, I've never come anywhere near that for a resole/heel.  I get my shoes shined at the Midland airport...10 bucks.

[jbm]

Fuck this shit. I'm going to start dressing like Sun Ra.

Prince would have trouble dunking over him.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Florsheim makes some great, Goodyear-welted (meaning leather soles that can be replaced) wingtips for less than $200.  The Veblen and Millport are particularly nice.  Made in China, but built like battleships.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I'm poor. 

By no means am I loaded.  But I do have flat feet, which mandates quality arch support.  The first few pairs of J&M shoes I owned lasted 10 yrs.  The last 2 pairs barely made it beyond a year.  The quality drop corresponds with the move to China manufacturing.  It's about a price point and profit margin now.  I'm no longer locked in to J&M shoes, as a result. 

[HudsonHawk]

FYI...The Men's Wearhouse is having a "buy one get one free" sale...everything in the store.  It's not custom tailored in London, like where chuck shops, but it's better than Target, where many of you probably do.  You can get some decent fitting clothes for a reasonable price.

[MusicMan]

FYI...The Men's Wearhouse is having a "buy one get one free" sale...everything in the store.  It's not custom tailored in London, like where chuck shops, but it's better than Target, where many of you probably do.  You can get some decent fitting clothes for a reasonable price.

I guarantee it.

[Bench]

FYI...The Men's Wearhouse is having a "buy one get one free" sale...everything in the store.  It's not custom tailored in London, like where chuck shops, but it's better than Target, where many of you probably do.  You can get some decent fitting clothes for a reasonable price.

At the very least spend six bucks and get a set of brass collar stays.

[HudsonHawk]

At the very least spend six bucks and get a set of brass collar stays.

Get two sets my friend. Buy. One. Get. One. Free.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I wonder sometimes if Zimmer needs to do stuff like this in order to keep up with Jos A Bank and those clowns at SuitMart.  My only beef with MW is the customer service: almost every time I go in (whether to rent a tux or buy something) they try to push something 1-2 sizes too large on me.  I know what size I am; don't tell me I need a different size so that I'll look more filled out or whatever.

[HudsonHawk]

I wonder sometimes if Zimmer needs to do stuff like this in order to keep up with Jos A Bank and those clowns at SuitMart.  My only beef with MW is the customer service: almost every time I go in (whether to rent a tux or buy something) they try to push something 1-2 sizes too large on me.  I know what size I am; don't tell me I need a different size so that I'll look more filled out or whatever.

I've noticed pushing a particular look everywhere, not just at MW.  I have the opposite problem..they usually try to push a more "fitted" look on me, and let's face it, I have, as chuck so generously described it, the "classic catcher's build".  I look ridiculous in much of the current tight-fitting fashions.  Still, they're usually very attentive, have a very good selection (even though I don't have a 30-inch waist), and have onsite tailors to get the proper fit.  I like shopping there, especially when everything is basically half-priced.

[Noe]

According to Zimmer's latest commercial, the "new" look is thinner lapels and shorter length on suit jackets. Means I am now officially out of style!

[HudsonHawk]

According to Zimmer's latest commercial, the "new" look is thinner lapels and shorter length on suit jackets. Means I am now officially out of style!

I don't like the new look which looks like your suit is two sizes too small.  One should never be able to see your socks while standing, and with your arms at your side, your jacket sleeves should just cover the break in your wrist.  One should never be able to see three inches of your cuffs.  Buttoned, yes your jacket was meant to be buttoned, your jacket should NOT scrunch up or force your lapel to stick out.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I don't like the new look which looks like your suit is two sizes too small.  One should never be able to see your socks while standing, and with your arms at your side, your jacket sleeves should just cover the break in your wrist.  One should never be able to see three inches of your cuffs.  Buttoned, yes your jacket was meant to be buttoned, your jacket should NOT scrunch up or force your lapel to stick out.

Bingo.  No pinching at the waist when the jacket is buttoned.  No more (or less) than 1/2" of shirt sleeve cuff showing, either.  I like what Thom Browne does conceptually, but in practice you look like you've been washed in hot water.

I'm not saying that I was going for a super slim look at MW; I just have a set of horrible pictures from my sister-in-law's wedding where I look like David Byrne because the sales guy insisted that I needed to go up a size to allow for the tuxedo vest.

[Noe]

I don't like the new look which looks like your suit is two sizes too small.  One should never be able to see your socks while standing, and with your arms at your side, your jacket sleeves should just cover the break in your wrist.  One should never be able to see three inches of your cuffs.  Buttoned, yes your jacket was meant to be buttoned, your jacket should NOT scrunch up or force your lapel to stick out.

It reminds me of the look that was made famous by Laurel and Hardy (although the lapels nowadays are supposed to be even thinner). I can't believe that is now fashionable.

[drew corleone]

I wonder sometimes if Zimmer needs to do stuff like this in order to keep up with Jos A Bank and those clowns at SuitMart.

Never heard of Suitmart, but it will be a cold day in hell before Jos A Bank ever gets another dime from me.

[BudGirl]

SuitMart

They don't guarantee anything.

[Bench]

Never heard of Suitmart, but it will be a cold day in hell before Jos A Bank ever gets another dime from me.

Suitmart is a Houston staple of terrible commercials during Astros and Rockets games. 

[HudsonHawk]

Suitmart is a Houston staple of terrible commercials during Astros and Rockets games. 

You might be a little young, but do you remember Kuppenheimer?  They were part of Hart, Schaffner & Marx, and were later bought by the Men's Wearhouse and dissolved.  I ask because ol' Gene Peterson, former voice of the Rockets used to advertise for them when they had retail stores, and his mug and distinctive voice was all over the Rockets/Astros games back in the day.

[Bench]

You might be a little young, but do you remember Kuppenheimer?  They were part of Hart, Schaffner & Marx, and were later bought by the Men's Wearhouse and dissolved.  I ask because ol' Gene Peterson, former voice of the Rockets used to advertise for them when they had retail stores, and his mug and distinctive voice was all over the Rockets/Astros games back in the day.

I'm probably too young, but if they didn't have any stores in San Antonio I'd have no way of knowing them anyway.  Didn't start living in Houston until 2003.

[das]

Never heard of Suitmart, but it will be a cold day in hell before Jos A Bank ever gets another dime from me.

OK, this is at least the 2nd ding on Jos A Bank in this thread.  I have two (executive) suites from them and both are fine and fit well after the initial tailoring.  What's the problem with them?

Re: Mens Warehouse, interesting place.  When I go in, sometimes they have some real crap but, everyonce in a while, you can score big.  Best looking black silk suit I've ever seen came from there.  Made in Italy and looks as good as it did the day I bought it 8 years ago.

[subnuclear]

I like Jos A Bank for jackets and suits, but I received some of their "no-iron" shirts as gifts and they would rip at the elbows within a few months. I'm not sure that's a problem localized to Jos A Bank. Their regular "need-to-be-ironed" shirts don't seem to have that problem.

[Andyzipp]

in re: Jos A Banks, the Executive Line are perfectly good suits, and if you catch a sale, usually a pretty good bargain.  Most of the lines beneath the Executive are shit. Poorly tailored, poorly constructed pieces of shit.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I was on my way to my nephew's graduation a couple of weeks ago and was wearing a golf shirt and khaki dockers, and was thinking I might be under dressed for the occasion. Then I arrived at the location. I saw a grown man, at least 45 years old--wearing skin-tight skinny stone-washed jeans, one of those affliction or ed hardy t-shirts (I don't know the difference but they both hurt my eyes and look like maggot fuck) that was a size or two too small, blue-blocker aviator lens sunglasses, jogging shoes, and to top it off, he had an OU ballcap on. Inside the building. At night.

I wear hats often, and I follow the hat wearing rules of etiquette. I would guess that I'm one of the 1% that can wear a hat and not look like a douche. Of course, I could always behave like one. I've found douchiness to be more of a behavioral trait than a physical one. Eye of the beholder, I guess.

I think it's important to dress appropriate to the situation. When I was in sales and was making a call at a law office or doctors office, I would wear one of my nice suits. If I was making a call at a muffler shop, I'd wear a sport coat, slacks, and no tie. I think it's just being sensible and considerate. I think it's every bit as important to be clean, well groomed, and not smell of body odor or too much cologne.

[HudsonHawk]

I wear hats often, and I follow the hat wearing rules of etiquette. I would guess that I'm one of the 1% that can wear a hat and not look like a douche. Of course, I could always behave like one. I've found douchiness to be more of a behavioral trait than a physical one. Eye of the beholder, I guess.

Having seen you in a casual hat, I can say that you can definitely pull it off.  You're tall and thin, and generally hip, without trying to look like a hipster.  Not to mention you actually do know both popular and obscur music, unlike the douchebag in the Modelo commercial.  However, when I've seen you in a hat, it was outside, or at least at a ballgame, which is just as good as outside, even if the roof is closed.  Of course, if you wear one at the table, I'll still dope slap you.

[Navin R Johnson]

unlike the douchebag in the Modelo commercial. 

Probably needs its own thread, but that is one of the most horrendous commercials in Astros broadcast history, that and the Tecate. does this dress make me look fat, that is in espanol.

[HudsonHawk]

Probably needs its own thread, but that is one of the most horrendous commercials in Astros broadcast history, that and the Tecate. does this dress make me look fat, that is in espanol.

I'll never understand the Tecate commercial...a guy has to think about whether or not to tell his smokin' hot wife that she's fat?  As for Modelo, it's a commercial by douchebags, for douchebags, starring douchebags.  Give the people what they want.

[Bench]

Modelo is a great beer for drinking out of a cold-ass can on a hot-ass day.  Other than that, you get no points for ordering it.

[drew corleone]

I don't own a JAB suit, das, but my experience in renting a tux from there last fall was enough to dissuade me from future patronage. For all I know, their suits may be top of the line. But the ill fitting garbage they gave me for my buddy's wedding, which didn't come close to meeting the measurements they took, and the "I don't give a shit" attitude they displayed when I raised my concerns, told me that my business was not valued. It was really a night and day experience from the Men's Warehouse, and not even close to the service I received at Macy's the last time I bought a suit.

On a positive note, as the wedding reception wound down, and as they say in Westeros, we were all in our cups, my untucked parachute, er, tux shirt was a hit on the dance floor.