Attendance Record

[Limey]

Astros set a new franchise low for MMPUS on Sunday: 14,195.  Previous low was 18k against the Reds in 2003 - they got less than that last night.

I've said it before: by the time 2013 and the AL rolls around, $70mm will be nowhere near enough.


ETA:  That's paid attendance.  I'm guessing AISes was way lower than that.

[Gizzmonic]

Yup, is it too late to go back on that one?  The money they're gonna lose in TV deals alone (playing most road games on the west coast vs. the likes of Seattle and Anaheim) seems like it should be more than $70 mil.

[Limey]

Yup, is it too late to go back on that one?  The money they're gonna lose in TV deals alone (playing most road games on the west coast vs. the likes of Seattle and Anaheim) seems like it should be more than $70.

To win back "fans", they're going to have to put a consistent winner on the field.  That will cost multiples of $70mm, which will have to be committed while still hemorrhaging money, which will never happen.

The road back to popularity for this franchise, unfortunately, is to follow the Oilers' blueprint, leave town and start afresh.

[Reuben]

Astros set a new franchise low for MMPUS on Sunday: 14,195.  Previous low was 18k against the Reds in 2003 - they got less than that last night.

I've said it before: by the time 2013 and the AL rolls around, $70mm will be nowhere near enough.


ETA:  That's paid attendance.  I'm guessing AISes was way lower than that.

Brownie said on the TV last night that the 14k Sunday was actual attendance, not just paid. Whether that's true or not, I can't say. The park certainly looked very empty Sun and Mon, but who can tell for sure what 14,000 looks like spread out across a 40,000+ capacity park, as opposed to, say 8 or 10,000?

The previous MMP low was 18,500 (paid) for a game in 2003. It would be pretty drastic for the new low to suddenly be over 4,000 less.

[Clark in Denver]

To win back "fans", they're going to have to put a consistent winner on the field.  That will cost multiples of $70mm, which will have to be committed while still hemorrhaging money, which will never happen.

The road back to popularity for this franchise, unfortunately, is to follow the Oilers' blueprint, leave town and start afresh.

All they have to do to win me back is announce they are staying in the National League. I'm not sure what that will run them.

[ValpoCory]

To win back "fans", they're going to have to put a consistent winner on the field.  That will cost multiples of $70mm, which will have to be committed while still hemorrhaging money, which will never happen.

The road back to popularity for this franchise, unfortunately, is to follow the Oilers' blueprint, leave town and start afresh.

Maybe you were being hyperbolic, and maybe it's the optimist in me, but I think the Astros will be popular again without leaving town. 

[JimR]

To win back "fans", they're going to have to put a consistent winner on the field.  That will cost multiples of $70mm, which will have to be committed while still hemorrhaging money, which will never happen.

The road back to popularity for this franchise, unfortunately, is to follow the Oilers' blueprint, leave town and start afresh.

good grief.

[BizidyDizidy]

I think you are all grossly overestimating the financial harm of the AL move. That is not why the stands are empty - people just don't care. The 70MM could easily be 100% gravy.

[roadrunner]

Brownie said on the TV last night that the 14k Sunday was actual attendance, not just paid. Whether that's true or not, I can't say. The park certainly looked very empty Sun and Mon, but who can tell for sure what 14,000 looks like spread out across a 40,000+ capacity park, as opposed to, say 8 or 10,000?

The previous MMP low was 18,500 (paid) for a game in 2003. It would be pretty drastic for the new low to suddenly be over 4,000 less.

Yeah they are reporting asses in seats this year, not paid attendance which has been reported in the past.  JD said there were 20k paid for Sunday's game.  

[Ron Brand]

The road back to popularity for this franchise, unfortunately, is to follow the Oilers' blueprint, leave town and start afresh.

Thanks, Mr. Sunshine.

[Gizzmonic]

I think you are all grossly overestimating the financial harm of the AL move. That is not why the stands are empty - people just don't care. The 70MM could easily be 100% gravy.

You don't think moving out of a division and a league where fans actually show up (Cubs, Cards, Brewers, Braves, Mets, etc) to the 2-team Yankee/Red Sox league is gonna make a difference in gate receipts?  If you think it's bad this year, wait till next.  I guarantee they will feel the pain at the box office.

[EasTexAstro]

The road back to popularity for this franchise, unfortunately, is to follow the Oilers' blueprint, leave town and start afresh.

So, we would have a Texas team in the AL West to root for?

[roadrunner]

I think you are all grossly overestimating the financial harm of the AL move. That is not why the stands are empty - people just don't care. The 70MM could easily be 100% gravy.

I'm pretty sure the Yankees and Red Sox will bring in more than the Braves did last night, and the Braves have historically been the best draw in Houston (other than the Cubs).

My guess is that the AL move won't affect attendance much.  Winning is the only thing that will do that.  Levine's Q&A with Crane was interesting when he asked where the extra $70M went with the move.  Crane said the ownership group used that money to wash away much of the debt.

[roadrunner]

You don't think moving out of a division and a league where fans actually show up (Cubs, Cards, Brewers, Braves, Mets, etc) to the 2-team Yankee/Red Sox league is gonna make a difference in gate receipts?  If you think it's bad this year, wait till next.  I guarantee they will feel the pain at the box office.

I think that gets made up with the "new" AL teams coming in.  Houston is full of transplants, many of whom I know personally are excited to see their team play in Minute Maid every year.  Plus we'll get bandwagon Strangers fans more next year.  God, this is going to suck.

[Limey]

I'm pretty sure the Yankees and Red Sox will bring in more than the Braves did last night, and the Braves have historically been the best draw in Houston (other than the Cubs).

My guess is that the AL move won't affect attendance much.  Winning is the only thing that will do that.  Levine's Q&A with Crane was interesting when he asked where the extra $70M went with the move.  Crane said the ownership group used that money to wash away much of the debt.

The debt washed away wasn't the club's debt prior to the purchase, it was the debt run up by Crane's syndicate in order to acquire the club.  I.e., the $70mm is already gone and now they're operating on much-reduced revenues - not just in gate receipts but in merchandise and concession sales.  Servicing the remaining debt will swallow up an unknown portion of the operating revenues, and the club has been clear about its need to slash player payroll.

Some of you think my earlier statement was hyperbolic.  That's fine.  I do hope I'm wrong.  But businesses don't come back from downward spirals like this without a major injection of capital, which isn't coming, and/or a change in ownership, which has already happened.

[Limey]

I think that gets made up with the "new" AL teams coming in.  Houston is full of transplants, many of whom I know personally are excited to see their team play in Minute Maid every year.  Plus we'll get bandwagon Strangers fans more next year.  God, this is going to suck.

So you think that a few games a year against the Yankees and Red Sox, plus a secret army of Seattle, Oakland and LA transplants, are going to offset the games against the Jakes, FTCs and Bravos?  The games against the Rangers will be well attended...by Rangers fans.

[BudGirl]

So you think that a few games a year against the Yankees and Red Sox, plus a secret army of Seattle, Oakland and LA transplants, are going to offset the games against the Jakes, FTCs and Bravos?  The games against the Rangers will be well attended...by Rangers fans.

The Bravos aren't exactly raking fans in this week.

I agree that the loss of playing the Cards and Cubs will hurt more than MLB would admit. 

And opposing fans at MMP is something some of us are already numb to.

[Gizzmonic]

So you think that a few games a year against the Yankees and Red Sox, plus a secret army of Seattle, Oakland and LA transplants, are going to offset the games against the Jakes, FTCs and Bravos?  The games against the Rangers will be well attended...by Rangers fans.

Yup.  Someone posted a list of the worst road draws in MLB here not too long ago.  Most of 'em are in the AL, and I believe Anaheim, Seattle and Oakland are all in the bottom five.  I'll repeat it: the AL has 2 teams that draw well on the road, and they are not in the Astros' division.  On the same token, the Astros are not likely to help attendance for AL West teams except for the Rangers.  Colorado or Arizona would have been a much better fit.

[roadrunner]

The debt washed away wasn't the club's debt prior to the purchase, it was the debt run up by Crane's syndicate in order to acquire the club.  I.e., the $70mm is already gone and now they're operating on much-reduced revenues - not just in gate receipts but in merchandise and concession sales.  Servicing the remaining debt will swallow up an unknown portion of the operating revenues, and the club has been clear about its need to slash player payroll.

Some of you think my earlier statement was hyperbolic.  That's fine.  I do hope I'm wrong.  But businesses don't come back from downward spirals like this without a major injection of capital, which isn't coming, and/or a change in ownership, which has already happened.

What about the big TV deal about to kick in?

[Limey]

Yup.  Someone posted a list of the worst road draws in MLB here not too long ago.  Most of 'em are in the AL, and I believe Anaheim, Seattle and Oakland are all in the bottom five.  I'll repeat it: the AL has 2 teams that draw well on the road, and they are not in the Astros' division.  On the same token, the Astros are not likely help attendance for AL West teams except for the Rangers.  Colorado or Arizona would have been a much better fit.

The Astros will join the west coast AL West teams at the bottom of that list.

[Limey]

What about the big TV deal about to kick in?

Do we know it's a "big deal".  I'm sure that it's more lucrative than the current deal like-for-like, but the viewership drop due to the current fan-malaise (of which I may be "Patient Zero") and the late-night west coast roadies will impact ad revenue.  What is unknown is whether the bigger slice of a smaller pie is going to be bigger overall.

[roadrunner]

Yup.  Someone posted a list of the worst road draws in MLB here not too long ago.  Most of 'em are in the AL, and I believe Anaheim, Seattle and Oakland are all in the bottom five.  I'll repeat it: the AL has 2 teams that draw well on the road, and they are not in the Astros' division.  On the same token, the Astros are not likely help attendance for AL West teams except for the Rangers.  Colorado or Arizona would have been a much better fit.

I would guess the White Sox, Tigers, and Angels all draw pretty well.  Once you net it all out the NL might draw better but I don't think it's enough to sink the franchise.  Decades of losing could do that, but it hasn't in Pittsburgh.

[Clark in Denver]

Do we know it's a "big deal".  I'm sure that it's more lucrative than the current deal like-for-like, but the viewership drop due to the current fan-malaise (of which I may be "Patient Zero") and the late-night west coast roadies will impact ad revenue.  What is unknown is whether the bigger slice of a smaller pie is going to be bigger overall.

I can't imagine that it will be in the neighborhood of what the Angels will be able to get in LA. For that matter, it probably won't be as large as the Rangers. (Speculation on my part.)

[Waldo]

What about the big TV deal about to kick in?

Merchandise sales will also go up next year with the new unis/logo/colors as long as they are not horrible.

[EasTexAstro]

So you think that a few games a year against the Yankees and Red Sox, plus a secret army of Seattle, Oakland and LA transplants, are going to offset the games against the Jakes, FTCs and Bravos?  The games against the Rangers will be well attended...by Rangers fans.

There has been a large migration of California people to Texas over the last 4-5 years. Maybe 1 or 2 of them will be baseball fans.

[MusicMan]

To win back "fans", they're going to have to put a consistent winner on the field.  That will cost multiples of $70mm, which will have to be committed while still hemorrhaging money, which will never happen.

The road back to popularity for this franchise, unfortunately, is to follow the Oilers' blueprint, leave town and start afresh.

Private, get the President on the line, tell him we're surrendering our position in Cuba.

[hostros7]

Low payroll + revenue sharing = profit.  See Pirates, Pittsburgh.  

[Reuben]

Colorado or Arizona would have been a much better fit.

1,000 times this. I know Bud probably just felt like the Astros were the team fans would care the least about moving, but really, who the fuck would've cared if AZ or CO moved to the AL West? As far as "appropriateness", which I'm sure Selig never once cared about, I can't think of an NL that, historically, has more resembled an AL team than Colorado (except Milwaukee, of course), nor a team that has more embodied the NL style than the Astros.

[EasTexAstro]

1,000 times this. I know Bud probably just felt like the Astros were the team fans would care the least about moving, but really, who the fuck would've cared if AZ or CO moved to the AL West? As far as "appropriateness", which I'm sure Selig never once cared about, I can't think of an NL that, historically, has more resembled an AL team than Colorado (except Milwaukee, of course), nor a team that has more embodied the NL style than the Astros.

+1

[Mr. Happy]

1,000 times this. I know Bud probably just felt like the Astros were the team fans would care the least about moving, but really, who the fuck would've cared if AZ or CO moved to the AL West? As far as "appropriateness", which I'm sure Selig never once cared about, I can't think of an NL that, historically, has more resembled an AL team than Colorado (except Milwaukee, of course), nor a team that has more embodied the NL style than the Astros.

You said a mouthful and got it all absolutely right.

[Gizzmonic]

1,000 times this. I know Bud probably just felt like the Astros were the team fans would care the least about moving, but really, who the fuck would've cared if AZ or CO moved to the AL West? As far as "appropriateness", which I'm sure Selig never once cared about, I can't think of an NL that, historically, has more resembled an AL team than Colorado (except Milwaukee, of course), nor a team that has more embodied the NL style than the Astros.

The Astros were the only team for sale.  They've been shitty for a few years, and they're out of the national spotlight.  Bud Selig preyed upon the Astros and their fans while they were weak, just another victim of his slash-and-burn style of "leadership."  50 years as an NL franchise (and 41 more as an NL farm team) means shit to the smarmy used-car dealer with the bad haircut.

[jbm]

Attendence would have sucked this bad even if there was no imminent move.  Winning will cure all of this, and make the TV deal more lucrative (since they are part owners). I do think the downward spiral argument has merit, but they are not even close to that point, IMO.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

The Astros were the only team for sale.  They've been shitty for a few years, and they're out of the national spotlight.  Bud Selig preyed upon the Astros and their fans while they were weak, just another victim of his slash-and-burn style of "leadership."  50 years as an NL franchise (and 41 more as an NL farm team) means shit to the smarmy used-car dealer with the bad haircut.

coughDodgersMetscough

[Limey]

coughDodgersMetscough

Seriously.  I was about to type exactly this.

[Gizzmonic]

coughDodgersMetscough

Point taken, but I don't think they were done sorting out the Dodgers mess while they were doing this dirty backroom deal.  Something tells me this was in the works for a long time.  PS Speaking of appropriate teams for the AL West...the Dodgers would be perfect.  They actually would help attendance dramatically for the other clubs!   Hey Bud, so long as you're destroying tradition, you may as well aim high.

[Limey]

Point taken, but I don't think they were done sorting out the Dodgers mess while they were doing this dirty backroom deal.  Something tells me this was in the works for a long time.

They knew the Dodgers were going to change ownership long before they could have been certain of the Astros changing ownership.  They could have left the Astros alone and waited on the Dodgers mess to get sorted out.

PS Speaking of appropriate teams for the AL West...the Dodgers would be perfect.  They actually would help attendance dramatically for the other clubs!   Hey Bud, so long as you're destroying tradition, you may as well aim high.

They would get to play in the same league as the Yankees...  The only issue I could see would be having two LA(A) teams in the same league.

[ValpoCory]

If you think it's bad this year, wait till next.  I guarantee they will feel the pain at the box office.

So are you saying that next season, the 14K and 18K crowds of the last two nights will seem like good crowds, by comparison?

[ValpoCory]

They knew the Dodgers were going to change ownership long before they could have been certain of the Astros changing ownership.  They could have left the Astros alone and waited on the Dodgers mess to get sorted out.


They would get to play in the same league as the Yankees...  The only issue I could see would be having two LA(A) teams in the same league.

And that is why the Dodgers didn't change leagues.  Had the Houston area already had a 2nd team, which played in the AL, then the Astros would not have been a candidate to switch leagues.

[Limey]

And that is why the Dodgers didn't change leagues.  Had the Houston area already had a 2nd team, which played in the AL, then the Astros would not have been a candidate to switch leagues.

I think the D-Backs were still on the hook to be moved to the AL at the league's whim.  Ignoring the Brewers for obvious reasons, moving Arizona to the AL West was the easiest and infinitely more geographically sensible option.

FYB's track record with the Astros really makes be think that he has a deep-seated grudge against the club.

[Ty in Tampa]

FYB's track record with the Astros really makes be think that he has a deep-seated grudge against the club.

Naw, he hates this site. He's done all this to fuck SnS over.

[moriartp]

FYB's track record with the Astros really makes be think that he has a deep-seated grudge against the club.

You'd think he'd be more grateful for all the years the owner spent sucking his dick.

[Limey]

You'd think he'd be more grateful for all the years the owner spent sucking his dick.

That doesn't necessarily gain you respect.  Am I right ladies?

[Gizzmonic]

You'd think he'd be more grateful for all the years the owner spent sucking his dick.

Funny how that works out.  Years of spinelessness gave Bud the (correct) impression that ownership would be Bud's bitch no matter what.

[Bench]

That doesn't necessarily gain you respect.  Am I right ladies?

It certainly does if they're doing it right. 

[Noe]

Ahem... strange turn for this thread, but that is the SnS for you. Any way, what will bring AIS to MMPUS (IMHO) is pitching.  Not hitting or high scoring games... I see enough of that with Ranger's baseball (of which I'm going to be exposed to more and more here in Austin). Last night is a good example. Yu Darvish sucked big time in his debut.  And the Rangers still won, exploding for a large amount of runs.

I like games that feature pitching, pitching, and pitching because with that, you'll always be in every game. The key to bringing back folks is give them a team that features pitching. And, oh yeah, do what Mills did after the first game... take players to task when they aren't playing smart baseball (re: errors based on daydreaming and not because you're trying hard to make a play).

[Clark in Denver]

Nonsense. Here is what you need to put AIS.

Loud music
The wave
Kiss Cam
Train full of pumpkins
Giant rabbits that have nothing to do with the Astros or their history
Home runs, lots and lots of home runs
Sheriff Blaylock
People dancing on the jumbotron
Any item given away with the Gallery Furniture logo on it.

I'm sure we can think of more, but we have a meeting with the Miami Marlins marketing department later this afternoon.

Thank you,

The Houston Astros Marketing Department

[Noe]

I bow to the wisdom of marketing departments. Silly me!

[Limey]

Nonsense. Here is what you need to put AIS.

Loud music
The wave
Kiss Cam
Train full of pumpkins
Giant rabbits that have nothing to do with the Astros or their history
Home runs, lots and lots of home runs
Sheriff Blaylock
People dancing on the jumbotron
Any item given away with the Gallery Furniture logo on it.

I'm sure we can think of more, but we have a meeting with the Miami Marlins marketing department later this afternoon.

Thank you,

The Houston Astros Marketing Department

Goya bean smuggling in hats.

[OregonStrosFan]

Goya bean smuggling in hats.

Can't forget the Fowl Poles!

[Bench]

I've been to two games and haven't noticed the taco bell hot sauce packet races.  Granted, I usually divert my attention in disgust when the hot sauce comes out.  Did they finally do away with that travesty or have my mental blinders developed to automatically ignore the inanity? 

[ValpoCory]

Brownie said on the TV last night that the 14k Sunday was actual attendance, not just paid.

Are the Astros reporting attendance in tickets sold or turnstile count?    The LA Times today reported, "MLB attendance figures are for tickets sold, not fans in attendance". 

I would guess the Sunday attendance of 14,195 was tickets sold, not turnstile count.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I've been to two games and haven't noticed the taco bell hot sauce packet races.  Granted, I usually divert my attention in disgust when the hot sauce comes out.  Did they finally do away with that travesty or have my mental blinders developed to automatically ignore the inanity? 

Wasn't happening on OD.  Don't know about since then.

[BUWebguy]

Are the Astros reporting attendance in tickets sold or turnstile count?    The LA Times today reported, "MLB attendance figures are for tickets sold, not fans in attendance". 

I would guess the Sunday attendance of 14,195 was tickets sold, not turnstile count.

I think I read a couple of days ago that the change this year was that they were counting only tickets sold, not comps, which had become numerous.

[BudGirl]

I think I read a couple of days ago that the change this year was that they were counting only tickets sold, not comps, which had become numerous.

This is what Crane & Co. said at the Astros Luncheon on Monday.

[austro]

Can't forget the Fowl Poles!

You guys are all missing it. Attendance is down because Hunter's Lodge got the axe.

[Reuben]

You guys are all missing it. Attendance is down because Hunter's Lodge got the axe.

Not to mention the Mini-Maybellenes Little Pumas. That has to be 3 or 4,000 a night right there.

[Texifornia]

FYB's track record with the Astros really makes be think that he has a deep-seated grudge against the club.

I think contempt is a better word. Grudge  implies there is somehow reciprocity involved. If the Astros, as a franchise, were ever to stand up for itself against the Commissioner, them maybe the relationship could be elevated to a grudge.

Remember FYB's invocation of Baseball's hallowed history as he announced the forced league change. That's not a grudge, that's pure contempt.

[Limey]

So are you saying that next season, the 14K and 18K crowds of the last two nights will seem like good crowds, by comparison?

Remember when we were all freaking out over a new franchise low attendance - back on April 9 - of 14,195?

First three nights of the Nationals series:

Monday:  13,843
Tuesday:  14,273
Wednesday:  16,038

Take another look at Monday night.  That was a new franchise low attendance but, because no one's watching, no one's watching.  If you see what I mean.  To be fair, the Pirates drew, in the preceding home series, crowds of 20k or better.  But the division-leading Reds before them posted over 16k only once, and then only just.

You can get the full run down here.  There's some weirdness in there, including the fact that the Royals (over 30k for a mid-week game) were a bigger draw than the Cubs, Cards, Brewers, Red and Mets.  Maybe people thought that was a team the Astros might actually beat...

[pots]

There's some weirdness in there, including the fact that the Royals (over 30k for a mid-week game) were a bigger draw than the Cubs, Cards, Brewers, Red and Mets.  Maybe people thought that was a team the Astros might actually beat...

It was an afternoon game.  Correct me if I'm wrong but were they not trying to do less afternoon games for attendance purposes?