Josh Hamilton Back on the Bottle

[Limey]

No joke.  Sad.

[Bench]

The Rangers actually hire an "accountability partner" to follow Hamilton around?

[Limey]

The Rangers actually hire an "accountability partner" to follow Hamilton around?

They're paying him $12mm/year.  Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[Fredia]

and he had been sober for a while. alcoholism reared its ugly head

[S.P. Rodriguez]

The Rangers actually hire an "accountability partner" to follow Hamilton around?

He said he did not need one.  Then his father in-law, who was to replace the former accountability coach, backed out.

[AtascAstro]

He is actually scheduled to speak tonight at a Christian Men's Conference in Katy.  Kudos to him for being willing to show up and talk about his journey, the peaks and the valleys.  I think that his story and hope will be much more real and tangible than the shining examples that are so often presented.  Wish I could go.

Born to be Wild Conference

[Noe]

He is actually scheduled to speak tonight at a Christian Men's Conference in Katy.  Kudos to him for being willing to show up and talk about his journey, the peaks and the valleys.  I think that his story and hope will be much more real and tangible than the shining examples that are so often presented.  Wish I could go.

Born to be Wild Conference

I heard he was struggling a lot with the death of the Dad who reached to grab the baseball he threw up in the stands and consequently fell to his death. Hopefully it's not abusive what he's turning to for strength right now.

[VirtualBob]

I heard he was struggling a lot with the death of the Dad who reached to grab the baseball he threw up in the stands and consequently fell to his death. Hopefully it's not abusive what he's turning to for strength right now.

That would be a lot for anyone to carry around.  Even without past self-medication problems.

[AtascAstro]

I heard he was struggling a lot with the death of the Dad who reached to grab the baseball he threw up in the stands and consequently fell to his death. Hopefully it's not abusive what he's turning to for strength right now.

His press conference mentions that he had a family problem and then walked to a restaurant to eat alone.  I'm sure that memory compounds every other dark day.  He was very honest about his weakness and the daily struggle against addiction.  He sounds like somebody that is still on the right path.

What a fantastic example of a real Christian.  He isn't perfect and still struggles with things that he doesn't really want to do, but is accountable for his failings and confident in his future hope.

[JimR]

there may be a woman, not his wife, involved as well.

[geezerdonk]

I heard he was struggling a lot with the death of the Dad who reached to grab the baseball he threw up in the stands and consequently fell to his death. Hopefully it's not abusive what he's turning to for strength right now.

He is snake bit for sure.

[Limey]

What a fantastic example of a real Christian.  He isn't perfect and still struggles with things that he doesn't really want to do, but is accountable for his failings and confident in his future hope.

Seriously?  You think if he'd been born Jewish that he'd automatically spiral off into an oblivion of self-indulgence?

[Bench]

Seriously?  You think if he'd been born Jewish that he'd automatically spiral off into an oblivion of self-indulgence?

That's why Koufax's career was cut short.

[JimR]

That's why Koufax's career was cut short.

yep. being Jewish and arthritis

[JimR]

I heard he was struggling a lot with the death of the Dad who reached to grab the baseball he threw up in the stands and consequently fell to his death. Hopefully it's not abusive what he's turning to for strength right now.

alcoholics always have an excuse for the next drink.

[Noe]

Seriously?  You think if he'd been born Jewish that he'd automatically spiral off into an oblivion of self-indulgence?

What makes you ask that? All AA said was it was a true Christian trait to stand up and admit failing and deal with it. He didn't say it was exclusive to only being a Christian... unless you read something between the lines or sumptin'

[Noe]

alcoholics always have an excuse for the next drink.

That they do (I have an uncle who is a good man, but the bottle destroyed his life and his families life). In this case, I wasn't offering an excuse but an explanation of sorts of what a man is dealing with. It's real and I do hope and pray he isn't turning to a source of more grief even though it seems to be a source of relief to him.

[Limey]

What makes you ask that? All AA said was it was a true Christian trait to stand up and admit failing and deal with it. He didn't say it was exclusive to only being a Christian... unless you read something between the lines or sumptin'

I read it as saying it's an exclusively Christian trait.  If that wasn't the intent, I withdraw the question.

[Bench]

yep. being Jewish and arthritis

The arthritis must have made it hard to lift a bottle.  Without the ha'gafen, he was like Samson without his hair.   

[AtascAstro]

Seriously?  You think if he'd been born Jewish that he'd automatically spiral off into an oblivion of self-indulgence?

There is sufficient evidence to show that lots of people overcome addiction independant of their faith.

My intent wasn't to contrast Christianity with another religion, but rather to contrast his story against the image of perfection that many Christians try to present.  We tend to herald redemption stories but don't always paint an honest picture of life after that.  Life is messy.  My faith isn't about being magically perfect in this life, but about having hope in overcoming those limitations in another.

[Ron Brand]

I read it as saying it's an exclusively Christian trait.  If that wasn't the intent, I withdraw the question.

I gotta say, I read it that way too but walked away from it. I've got rabbit ears on that subject.

[AtascAstro]

I read it as saying it's an exclusively Christian trait.  If that wasn't the intent, I withdraw the question.

I'm not that guy, I promise.  I hold my beliefs strongly, but I don't have to paint everyone else as wholly evil and without virtue to do so.

[Ron Brand]

I'm not that guy, I promise.  I hold my beliefs strongly, but I don't have to paint everyone else as wholly evil and without virtue to do so.

What if we're just partly evil and almost completely without virtue?

[Bench]

I gotta say, I read it that way too but walked away from it. I've got rabbit ears on that subject.

So THAT'S what your avatar is. 

[AtascAstro]

What if we're just partly evil and almost completely without virtue?

Rangers fan?

[Jose Cruz III]

I'm the first to admit that I truly do not understand the highs and lows and ins and outs of addiction. I think only an addict can. But I would like to encourage those that have had addictions to hold on to hope and pray for them that they can.

[Mr. Happy]

A relapse can be a springboard to a higher level of recovery. I hope that is true for Hamilton.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

You know what? Fuck him. Josh Hamilton is a fuck up who happens to play baseball very well.

[strosrays]

The darkness is never very far away, Josh.  You've got a whole long life to look forward to, of trying not to fuck up.

[D.H.]

...

What a fantastic example of a real Christian.  He isn't perfect and still struggles with things that he doesn't really want to do, but is accountable for his failings and confident in his future hope.

I agree with this statement, as written. People should strive to improve, and many people are aided by a role model in doing so.

[HudsonHawk]

We tend to herald redemption stories but don't always paint an honest picture of life after that.  

This is part of my problem with this whole story.  We tend to celebrate those who are attempting to overcome their fuck ups, but ignore those who don't fuck up in the first place.  I mean, I'm glad Hamilton is trying to stay sober, and keep his life in order.  I'm glad to see that from anyone who struggles with anything in life.  But I don't give extra credit to anyone for simply doing what you're supposed to do.

[Ron Brand]

This is part of my problem with this whole story.  We tend to celebrate those who are attempting to overcome their fuck ups, but ignore those who don't fuck up in the first place.  I mean, I'm glad Hamilton is trying to stay sober, and keep his life in order.  I'm glad to see that from anyone who struggles with anything in life.  But I don't give extra credit to anyone for simply doing what you're supposed to do.

Nobody would buy a book called "My Struggle" if the author never had problems, would they?

[HudsonHawk]

Nobody would buy a book called "My Struggle" if the author never had problems, would they?

Only if it was written in German.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Just to clarify a bit upon my callous and cynical nature. I think it's terrible what happened last summer. And I'm not knocking his religious commitment, that is obviously how he stopped the spiral--baseball (money) up to that point had seemingly contributed to his downfall. But there comes a time. Walks like a duck...

[Ron Brand]

Walks like a duck...

...goosesteps like a Führer.

[Noe]

I agree with this statement, as written. People should strive to improve, and many people are aided by a role model in doing so.

+1

[AtascAstro]

This is part of my problem with this whole story.  We tend to celebrate those who are attempting to overcome their fuck ups, but ignore those who don't fuck up in the first place.  I mean, I'm glad Hamilton is trying to stay sober, and keep his life in order.  I'm glad to see that from anyone who struggles with anything in life.  But I don't give extra credit to anyone for simply doing what you're supposed to do.

I don't really disagree.  Personally, my Dad is and always will be my hero.  But my Dad's life is hard for people who struggle with addiction and self-destructive behavior to identify with.  In many ways his ability to do exactly what he's supposed to do only furthers their self-hate.

I hope that Josh's story gives some hope and encouragement to somebody fighting the same battles without the advantages of fame and fortune.

I hope that Josh's story helps others like me to better understand the depth of those battles and motivates us to reach out a hand to others who need help.

[strosrays]

Hamilton's parents likely fucked him up.  That's not an excuse, but if you're looking for a reason ...

[HudsonHawk]

Hamilton's parents likely fucked him up.  That's not an excuse, but if you're looking for a reason ...

I think it's pretty well accepted that Hamilton's parents contributed to his problems.  He was one seriously pampered, coddled, and arrogant SOB when he got drafted. 

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

My problem with using Hamilton as an example is I hope there's not some kid somewhere thinking he too can do fuck all and come out on top. I hold no ill regard for the man, but I think his tale should be told with more caution and less praise.

[strosrays]

I think it's pretty well accepted that Hamilton's parents contributed to his problems.  He was one seriously pampered, coddled, and arrogant SOB when he got drafted. 

Right.  And that was just the start of it.

He was 18.  He'd led a pretty sheltered life.  Probably most of his friends/peers were going off to school or to play ball or were going to work and moving out of the house.  He'd been drafted by TB and maybe could envision a little freedom ahead, a little breathing room to try and grow up.  Sure, it'd probably be rookie ball in some little town in Hudson Valley NY, but still. . .

Then he signed his contract, with a huge bonus.  And his parents both quit their jobs and started following him around the minors.  For years.  They said they were 'protecting' him from the evils of the big world.  They didn't do too good a job of it, apparently.

Sure enough, some rebellious behavior started to surface from the dutiful son.  Scary rebelliousness, in the form of dozens and dozens of tattoos all over himself.  Nothing wrong with tattoos per se, but in this context it set off alarms everywhere - with his teammates, his coaches, his organization.  Everybody but his mom and dad, it seems.

I am the last one to critique anyone's parenting.  But it seems to me if you were setting out to screw up a kid, over-sheltering him, spoiling him, then looking at him as your meal ticket, then looking the other way, seems like a pretty fail-safe formula.

Addiction is one thing.  Maybe Hamilton was destined to be an addict, regardless.  But the impulse to rebellious, self-destructive behavior can largely be laid at the feet of mom and dad.  In my opinion.

[Ty in Tampa]

I've got zero sympathy. I don't wish ill on him but he created his problems.

[HudsonHawk]

I've got zero sympathy. I don't wish ill on him but he created his problems.

Concise and to the point.  He's certainly not an "example", at least not of anything other than how not to behave.

[Mr. Happy]

Right.  And that was just the start of it.

He was 18.  He'd led a pretty sheltered life.  Probably most of his friends/peers were going off to school or to play ball or were going to work and moving out of the house.  He'd been drafted by TB and maybe could envision a little freedom ahead, a little breathing room to try and grow up.  Sure, it'd probably be rookie ball in some little town in Hudson Valley NY, but still. . .

Then he signed his contract, with a huge bonus.  And his parents both quit their jobs and started following him around the minors.  For years.  They said they were 'protecting' him from the evils of the big world.  They didn't do too good a job of it, apparently.

Sure enough, some rebellious behavior started to surface from the dutiful son.  Scary rebelliousness, in the form of dozens and dozens of tattoos all over himself.  Nothing wrong with tattoos per se, but in this context it set off alarms everywhere - with his teammates, his coaches, his organization.  Everybody but his mom and dad, it seems.

I am the last one to critique anyone's parenting.  But it seems to me if you were setting out to screw up a kid, over-sheltering him, spoiling him, then looking at him as your meal ticket, then looking the other way, seems like a pretty fail-safe formula.

Addiction is one thing.  Maybe Hamilton was destined to be an addict, regardless.  But the impulse to rebellious, self-destructive behavior can largely be laid at the feet of mom and dad.  In my opinion.

+1

[Ron Brand]

I've got zero sympathy. I don't wish ill on him but he created his problems.

Sums it up for me too. I can see where that fan dying would be a tough burden to carry though.

[Mr. Happy]

I've got zero sympathy. I don't wish ill on him but he created his problems.

I understand how you feel. It's a very common feeling among those who aren't addicts or who don't understand that addiction is a disease. The NA Basic Text teaches that while we may not be responsible for our disease, we are responsible for our recovery. Josh is responsible, and it sounds like he owned up to his part. I wish him well.

[Ty in Tampa]

Sums it up for me too. I can see where that fan dying would be a tough burden to carry though.

Absolutely.

I understand how you feel. It's a very common feeling among those who aren't addicts or who don't understand that addiction is a disease.

Sure, I understand that. He's too far along in his recovery for me to care. He knows the deal.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

It's a very common feeling among those who aren't addicts or who don't understand that addiction is a disease.

Norm MacDonald's perspective on Hamilton's situation compared with Gary Carter's. "It's true, you have a disease, but I think you got the best one."

[Mr. Happy]

Sure, I understand that. He's too far along in his recovery for me to care. He knows the deal.

I agree. We deal with people who relapse regularly. I always tell them that while I welcome them back (many who relapse don't make it back because they overdose and die), I don't condone what they did. And they know better than to call me to come get them when they're at the dope man's house. It's too late. I'm not risking my own clean time for them. Call me before they go, and I'll be glad to drop what I'm doing and talk or visit with them.

[HudsonHawk]

I understand how you feel. It's a very common feeling among those who aren't addicts or who don't understand that addiction is a disease. The NA Basic Text teaches that while we may not be responsible for our disease, we are responsible for our recovery. Josh is responsible, and it sounds like he owned up to his part. I wish him well.

Well, I don't buy into the disease concept, but I agree that he's responsible for staying sober. I hope he does. But he doesn't get extra credit for being so.

[strosrays]

I agree. We deal with people who relapse regularly. I always tell them that while I welcome them back (many who relapse don't make it back because they overdose and die), I don't condone what they did. And they know better than to call me to come get them when they're at the dope man's house. It's too late. I'm not risking my own clean time for them. Call me before they go, and I'll be glad to drop what I'm doing and talk or visit with them.

BTW, I admire what you do.

I find it amazing that so many people who crawl out of that black hole turn right around and try to help somebody else get out of it.  Me, I think I'd be inclined to get away and stay away, as far as possible.

[Bench]

Well, I don't buy into the disease concept, but I agree that he's responsible for staying sober. I hope he does. But he doesn't get extra credit for being so.

How in world of HudsonHawk is addiction not a disease?

[Mr. Happy]

BTW, I admire what you do.

I find it amazing that so many people who crawl out of that black hole turn right around and try to help somebody else get out of it.  Me, I think I'd be inclined to get away and stay away, as far as possible.

Thanks. The NA Basic Text also says that we keep what we have by giving it away. I'm here because someone in NA gave a shit about me when I didn't care about myself. It helps me to help someone else more than I probably help the other person.

[HudsonHawk]

How in world of HudsonHawk is addiction not a disease?

Because it doesn't meet the nosological definition of a disease.

1. It's not involuntary.
2. It's not biogenic.
3. The pathology is diagnosed by symptoms alone.

Addiction is a behavior, not an underlying medical condition.  Chain smoking is a behavior, cancer is a disease.  The latter may be a consequence of the former, but they are not the same.  That doesn't mean that certain people are not more susceptible to it, and it doesn't mean that it's not crippling to those who suffer with it.  It doesn't mean that it's easy to stop.  But it's not, by definition, a disease.

Furthermore, studies show that societies that treat it as a disease have the highest rates of addiction and by far the highest rates of relapse.  The disease concept is promoted by those who stand to profit from it.  It's advertised by the addiction community, but you'll be hard pressed to find many medical professionals who are in agreement.

[Duman]

Parents screw up. Hamilton's parents were helicopter parents of the worst kind by all reports.   But parenting is no guarantee of a child turning out one way or another.  Josh made choices - he has to deal with those consequences now. 

There are family consequences that are significant. Best wishes to him on that.

On the baseball field, his chances of a long term contract took a hit. Tough luck there.

[HudsonHawk]

On the baseball field, his chances of a long term contract took a hit. Tough luck there.

It wasn't luck.  That's the point.

[strosrays]

When in doubt, always pile on someone who is pretty far down already.

Hamilton knows it is his fault.  Like he knows he really fucked up and let down his family, his friends, his organization, his fans.  He is walking around with that on his mind every minute of the day.  And he cannot get away from it, because every newspaper in the country is reporting about it.

But you know what?  Fuck you, Hamilton.  Your condition isn't a disease, it is a moral/behavioral weakness, you morally/behaviorally weak motherfucker.  No sympathy for you, asshole.  Have a nice fucking life.

[HudsonHawk]

But you know what?  Fuck you, Hamilton.  Your condition isn't a disease, it is a moral/behavioral weakness, you morally/behaviorally weak motherfucker.  No sympathy for you, asshole.  Have a nice fucking life.

I have sympathy for him.  What I don't have is admiration.

[Mr. Happy]

I have sympathy for him.  What I don't have is admiration.

I suspect that your sarcmeter needs adjustment.

[moriartp]

Let's see here. We hit the OF5 freakout in January, then we debated the merits of a stat that no one's cared about for at least half a decade, and now we're here. This void needs to end in a hurry.

Or, alternatively... the moon landings: real or fake? Discuss.

[ValpoCory]

My intent wasn't to contrast Christianity with another religion, but rather to contrast his story against the image of perfection that many Christians try to present.  

Especially in Dallas.  I remember reading a story about how the TV show "Super Nanny" went to Dallas trying to find a family to assist, and found no one willing to show their family imperfections.  Dallas is so superficial.  Being anything but perfect is social death up there.

[ValpoCory]

This is part of my problem with this whole story.  We tend to celebrate those who are attempting to overcome their fuck ups, but ignore those who don't fuck up in the first place.  I mean, I'm glad Hamilton is trying to stay sober, and keep his life in order.  I'm glad to see that from anyone who struggles with anything in life.  But I don't give extra credit to anyone for simply doing what you're supposed to do.

You mean you don't immediately stand up and cheer when someone says they've managed to quit smoking?  I think talk shows turn on their applause lights when a person says that.

[Guinness]

Or, alternatively... the moon landings: real or fake? Discuss.

The moon is fake.

[The Spleen]

The moon is fake.

That's no moon...

[HudsonHawk]

I suspect that your sarcmeter needs adjustment.

It's working just fine. I understood what DS was trying to say. I'm saying he miss understands my position. It's not that I don't hope for Hamilton to get his life in order. And it's not that I don't care about him or people with addictions. It's just that I don't find them admirable, inspiring, heartwarming or anything else that seeks to point them out as anything other than people you don't want to emulate.

[Waldo]

Or, alternatively... the moon landings: real or fake? Discuss.

"...rett... Paging Carl Everet..."

[Noe]

Especially in Dallas.  I remember reading a story about how the TV show "Super Nanny" went to Dallas trying to find a family to assist, and found no one willing to show their family imperfections.  Dallas is so superficial.  Being anything but perfect is social death up there.

Unfortunately, this is *NOT* a stretch. The truth is many ministries have their headquarters there and have to portray an image of perfection or else. And of course, being human always gets in the way.

[MusicMan]

The moon is fake.

It's a simple question, doctor.  If the moon were made of barbecued spare ribs, would you eat it?

[Bench]

Because it doesn't meet the nosological definition of a disease.

1. It's not involuntary.
2. It's not biogenic.
3. The pathology is diagnosed by symptoms alone.

Addiction is a behavior, not an underlying medical condition.  Chain smoking is a behavior, cancer is a disease.  The latter may be a consequence of the former, but they are not the same.  That doesn't mean that certain people are not more susceptible to it, and it doesn't mean that it's not crippling to those who suffer with it.  It doesn't mean that it's easy to stop.  But it's not, by definition, a disease.

Furthermore, studies show that societies that treat it as a disease have the highest rates of addiction and by far the highest rates of relapse.  The disease concept is promoted by those who stand to profit from it.  It's advertised by the addiction community, but you'll be hard pressed to find many medical professionals who are in agreement.

Obviously, this is asinine.  Your assumptions and the applications of them are facially incorrect.  By your reasoning alzheimers isn't a disease. 

[MusicMan]

The disease concept is promoted by those who stand to profit from it.  It's advertised by the addiction community, but you'll be hard pressed to find many medical professionals who are in agreement.

You know, only medical professionals who use the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Behavioral Disorders.  What the fuck do they know.

[Mark Arm]

team HudsonHawk

[MusicMan]

team HudsonHawk

That's real fucking insightful, thanks for your input.

[HudsonHawk]

Obviously, this is asinine.  Your assumptions and the applications of them are facially incorrect.  By your reasoning alzheimers isn't a disease. 

Obviously you're full of shit. Show me someone who voluntarily got Alzheimers. Show me someone who has it where it's not caused by an underlying medical pathology. You obviosly haven't done the slighest bitof research on this.

[HudsonHawk]

You know, only medical professionals who use the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Behavioral Disorders.  What the fuck do they know.

The vast majority of physicians will tell you that not only is addiction not a disease, but that treating as such is counterproductive.

[Bench]

Obviously you're full of shit. Show me someone who voluntarily got Alzheimers. Show me someone who has it where it's not caused by an underlying medical pathology. You obviosly haven't done the slighest bitof research on this.

Obviously you know plenty of people who happily signed up for life-destroying addictions.  

But, looking at the Official Hudson Hawk Definition of Disease (TM):

1. It's not involuntary.
Here's the root of your fallacy.  For example, drinking is voluntary.  Being addicted to drinking is not.  Don't conflate the behavior with the disorder.  By your definition, everyone who drinks must be an alcoholic, and I happen to know you're not baptist.  


2. It's not biogenic.
It's demonstrably neurological.  


3. The pathology is diagnosed by symptoms alone.
Maybe by you, but not by professionals.  (Also, I don't see how the basis of diagnosis qualifies one way or another.  There's no germ that causes schizophrenia or bipolar disorder).

[MusicMan]

The vast majority of physicians will tell you that not only is addiction not a disease, but that treating as such is counterproductive.

So the vast majority of physicians think the DSM-IV is wrong?
Please, show me any statistics that "a vast majority" of physicians think this.

Let's try this:
A mother ingests heroin during pregnancy.  Heroin, as you are aware can pass through the placenta.  They baby is then born addicted to heroin.  This is a physical addiction, cause by the body's chemical reactions to the drug.

Are you going to argue that this was voluntary and non-biogenic?

[HudsonHawk]

Obviously you know plenty of people who happily signed up for life-destroying addictions.  

Unfortunately, yes.

But, looking at the Official Hudson Hawk Definition of Disease (TM):

1. It's not involuntary.
Here's the root of your fallacy.  For example, drinking is voluntary.  Being addicted to drinking is not.  Don't conflate the behavior with the disorder.  By your definition, everyone who drinks must be an alcoholic, and I happen to know you're not baptist.  

Show me one person diagnosed as an alcoholic who has never taken a drink. And I am baptist.

2. It's not biogenic.
It's demonstrably neurological.  

It's demostrably psychological. Not the same thing

(Also, I don't see how the basis of diagnosis qualifies one way or another.  There's no germ that causes bipolar disorder).

Then you don't understand the definition of "disease". And diseases are caused by more than germs. I'm not aware of the cancer germ either.

[Bench]

Unfortunately, yes.

Show me one person diagnosed as an alcoholic who has never taken a drink. And I am baptist.

I can show you plenty of people who have taken plenty of drinks that are not alcoholics.  Don't blame the drink.

[JimR]

i absolutely, totally hate threads like these.

carry on.

[HudsonHawk]

Let's try this:
A mother ingests heroin during pregnancy.  Heroin, as you are aware can pass through the placenta.  They baby is then born addicted to heroin.  This is a physical addiction, cause by the body's chemical reactions to the drug.

Are you going to argue that this was voluntary and non-biogenic?

Let's try this...you fall off of a ladder, crack your skull and it damages your brain.  Are you going to argue that it was the result of a disease?

[Ebby Calvin]

i absolutely, totally hate threads like these.

carry on.

Next up - Politics! Yay!!

[HudsonHawk]

I can show you plenty of people who have taken plenty of drinks that are not alcoholics.  Don't blame the drink.

Show me someone diagnosed as an alcoholic who has never taken a drink.  Show me someone who has this disease who contracted it through something other than a choice to engage in drinking. And don't go on about crack babies. You know what we're talking about here.

[MusicMan]

Never mind.  I've once again confused HH trolling with actual discussion.

[BudGirl]

i absolutely, totally hate threads like these.

carry on.

Threads like this help people get to Emeritus Contributor status.

(yes, I made that up, but I like it.)

[HudsonHawk]

i absolutely, totally hate threads like these.

carry on.

You're about to get a break. I'm finishing my Carl's Jr and am about to hit the highway up to Santa Fe.

[HudsonHawk]

Never mind.  I've once again confused HH trolling with actual discussion.

In other words, you've once again run out of logic.

[Bench]

Show me someone diagnosed as an alcoholic who has never taken a drink.

The person is the addict, even before their addiction manifests. 

  Show me someone who has this disease who contracted it through something other than a choice to engage in drinking.

Genetics.

[MusicMan]

In other words, you've once again run out of logic.

I've asked you to document your absurd position that "the vast majority of physicians" disagree with the DSM-IV.  I prefer my information from experts, not trolling know-it-alls.

[HudsonHawk]

The person is the addict, even before their addiction manifests. 

Genetics.

So who is it ?  Who has been clinically diagnosed as an alcoholic without ever taking a drink?  Give me an example.

[HudsonHawk]

I've asked you to document your absurd position that "the vast majority of physicians" disagree with the DSM-IV.  I prefer my information from experts, not trolling know-it-alls.

I don't happen to have it in front of me, but I will find it. Or rather than a trolling know it all yourself, you could do a little research on your own.

[MusicMan]

I don't happen to have it in front of me, but I will find it. Or rather than a trolling know it all yourself, you could do a little research on your own.

I've done more research in the DSM-IV than I care to think of, thank you very much.

[HudsonHawk]

I've done more research in the DSM-IV than I care to think of, thank you very much.

What about DSM V?  Did you get to the part about addiction being a "behavioral disorder"?

[Bench]

So who is it ?  Who has been clinically diagnosed as an alcoholic without ever taking a drink?  Give me an example.

I enjoy watching you stoutly defend backwards logic probably more than most, and if this is what you've convinced yourself is the absolute unyielding definition of disease, then I guess we're at the end.

But the easy answer is somebody who is addicted to a different but similar substance.  A Mormon barbiturate-addict, perhaps?  

[MusicMan]

What about DSM V? 

Your invitation for me to do medical research in a not-yet-finalized reference is noted.

[Noe]

So who is it ?  Who has been clinically diagnosed as an alcoholic without ever taking a drink?  Give me an example.

I don't have a real dog in this fight, but I have heard from some folks who tell me that pre-disposition to alcholism exist. Meaning, genetically speaking, they are prone to abusive behavior and reaction to drink over other people. One person in particular who told me this was a wife who was standing by her almost always drunk husband who when sober was a really nice guy. His problem, as she stated, was that he cannot handle drinking like most folks because genetically speaking, he is prone to abuse. So in essence, it's been discovered that he has a disease in that sense. I don't know if it's the same as pre-disposition to allergic reactions or not, but that is what I was told by a friend and I didn't have any problem believing her.

[HudsonHawk]

I enjoy watching you stoutly defend backwards logic probably more than most, and if this is what you've convinced yourself is the absolute unyielding definition of disease, then I guess we're at the end.

It's not my definition.

But the easy answer is somebody who is addicted to a different but similar substance.  A Mormon barbiturate-addict, perhaps?  

So there have been Mormon barbituate addicts who've never ingested barbituates?  Who? Give me an example.

[MusicMan]

Let's see:
per Medical Dictionary:

any deviation from or interruption of the normal structure or function of any body part, organ, or system that is manifested by a characteristic set of symptoms and signs and whose etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknown.

per Webster's:

a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms

And, of course, you can refer to this article, but clearly HH has the universally agreed definition of "disease" and is here to enlighten us all.

[Ron Brand]

I was just in College Station and guess what I had for lunch?

Unsweet tea.

[NeilT]

When do pitchers and catchers report?  Isn't it soon?

[Ron Brand]

When do pitchers and catchers report?  Isn't it soon?

Two weeks, Shiro - san.

[Houston]

I was just in College Station and guess what I had for lunch?

Unsweet tea.

Liar! The last keg of Texas unsweetened tea was confiscated during Prohibition. You unsweet tea-totaler.

[strosrays]

You mean you don't immediately stand up and cheer when someone says they've managed to quit smoking?  I think talk shows turn on their applause lights when a person says that.

Look, I agree with you.

But have you ever tried to quit smoking?  I mean if you seriously had the habit over a lengthy period of time?  I can only go by my own experience, but it was by far the unwanted habit that was hardest to break.  I had to quit four seperate times (once for two years!) - over the course of 7-8 years before my attempts to stop actually took.

Applause for stopping a bad habit is probably not appropriate.  But maybe the people clapping are doing it because they know how fucking hard it is to quit.  It might even be empathy, which I would consider a positive thing.

It's working just fine. I understood what DS was trying to say. I'm saying he miss understands my position. It's not that I don't hope for Hamilton to get his life in order. And it's not that I don't care about him or people with addictions. It's just that I don't find them admirable, inspiring, heartwarming or anything else that seeks to point them out as anything other than people you don't want to emulate.

For what it is worth, that wasn't directed at you specifically, or anyone else.  Though unlike you, I do have some sympathy for Hamilton.  Dude fucked up big-time, and everybody knows.

[Taras Bulba]

I've been a tobacco addict for most of my life.  I have found that the difficulty is not so much getting over the physical cravings but saying "no" to the demon that lives inside as a result of the addiction--maybe it's just being weak minded.  This genie whispers to you that having a smoke or a dip is no big deal but by the end of the week, you're back at full throttle.  I think it's similar or maybe the same for alcohol and drugs.  There are certain things that I very much enjoy/enjoyed doing while smoking or dipping and thinking about them introduces cravings.  Same with certain places that I like.  I'm on the wagon but I've fallen off spectacularly so many times I'm no longer in the prediction business. 

I don't know or care if this is or isn't a disease but it has made me aware of how relatively easy it would be to fall off the wagon.  I don't pity Hamilton or congratulate him or whatever.  It's just something that's always going to be with him.

[geezerdonk]

I don't know or care if this is or isn't a disease

I don't know either. I just feel sorry for the poor son of a bitch and all others like him. I wouldn't trade places with him for all the money in the world. I quit smoking a long time ago. It wasn't very hard but I wasn't a heavy smoker. I still have a cigar (I enhale) a couple of times a year. And I have a nice chew of Days O' Work when I play golf which isn't often. I will quit drinking beer a day or so after I am buried.

[Jose Cruz III]

Is addiction to posting on sports forums a disease or behavioral?

[94CougarGrad]

Liar! The last keg of Texas unsweetened tea was confiscated during Prohibition. You unsweet tea-totaler.

I make unsweetened tea at my house. The husband doesn't drink sweet tea.

[MusicMan]

I make unsweetened tea at my house.

No you don't.

[Andyzipp]

No you don't.

Maybe she cooks out the sugar.

[94CougarGrad]

No you don't.

Oh yes I do. Call it bootleggin' if you will, but the husband drank so damn much sweet tea as a kid that he can't stand it no more.

[HudsonHawk]

Oh yes I do. Call it bootleggin' if you will, but the husband drank so damn much sweet tea as a kid that he can't stand it no more.

Some folks just call that "tea".

[AtascAstro]

Some folks just call that "tea".

Perhaps she is merely unskilled at making sweetened tea.

[94CougarGrad]

Perhaps she is merely unskilled at making sweetened tea.

I grew up in Texas. Sweet tea was all I knew until about 5th grade. I think it was mentioned in the movie they made all the girls watch.

[Ron Brand]

I grew up in Texas. Sweet tea was all I knew until about 5th grade. I think it was mentioned in the movie they made all the girls watch.

I grew up in Texas too, although it was Austin and therefore nothing like the rest of the state. I never heard of sweet tea until at least my late teens, and it was equated with some kind of Fluoridation Plot against America.

I mean, there was tea, and then most people dumped a lot of sugar in it. But it was called Iced Tea, and it came to you in a glass with ice but nothing else in it except maybe a slice of lemon. What you did with it after that was your own business.

[strosrays]

Maybe she cooks out the sugar.

Tea basing.

[Mr. Happy]

Tea basing.

Well played, sir.

[HudsonHawk]

I mean, there was tea, and then most people dumped a lot of sugar in it. But it was called Iced Tea, and it came to you in a glass with ice but nothing else in it except maybe a slice of lemon. What you did with it after that was your own business.

Tea is like being in a voting booth.  It's nobody's business.  Just a man, alone with his conscience.

[MusicMan]

Tea is like being in a voting booth.  It's nobody's business.  Just a man, alone with his conscience.

EVERYONE'S TEA BUT MINE IS EVIL AND A COMMUNIST PLOT TO DEFILE OUR PRECOIOUS BODILY FLUIDS

[Jose Cruz III]

Perhaps she is merely unskilled at making sweetened tea.

Not if she calls it unsweetened. The unskilled call it sweet tea and when you taste it, it's not.

[AtascAstro]

Not if she calls it unsweetened. The unskilled call it sweet tea and when you taste it, it's not.

One must practice skills to maintain proficiency.  Certainly, anyone who can unsweeten tea could never be considered unskilled.

[AtascAstro]

I grew up in Texas. Sweet tea was all I knew until about 5th grade. I think it was mentioned in the movie they made all the girls watch.

So you are skilled at sweetening tea, but unskilled at unsweetening it.  When would you say that you lost the latter?

[NeilT]

So you are skilled at sweetening tea, but unskilled at unsweetening it.  When would you say that you lost the latter?

She found it unnecessary and unneeded, in that order.

[HudsonHawk]

How do you guys feel about unleaded gasoline?

[Bench]

How do you guys feel about unleaded gasoline?

That's what I fill up my tank with when I run in to buy undiet coke. 

[Ron Brand]

How do you guys feel about unleaded gasoline?

My dad ran a gas station for many years and I remember him saying how little sense it made to charge more for a product that had fewer additives, since lead was an additive to gasoline. At the time, leaded gas was called 'regular' and 'unleaded' was the differentiator. I guess it makes even less sense to refer to it as unleaded now, since you pretty much can't get leaded gas anywhere.

I don't know enough about the chemical makeup of gasoline to really weigh in though. My biggest problem with 'unsweet' tea is the use of the word 'unsweet' instead of 'unsweetened.'

[AtascAstro]

How do you guys feel about unleaded gasoline?

unpalatable

[Limey]

MI don't know enough about the chemical makeup of gasoline to really weigh in though. My biggest problem with 'unsweet' tea is the use of the word 'unsweet' instead of 'unsweetened.'

I'm perfectly fine with "unsweetened".  It's apt and grammatically correct.  Because tea is often sweetened, it makes sense to double-down on the difference by marking unsweetened tea as unsweetened, so that people know for sure.

[Ron Brand]

I'm perfectly fine with "unsweetened".  It's apt and grammatically correct.  Because tea is often sweetened, it makes sense to double-down on the difference by marking unsweetened tea as unsweetened, so that people know for sure.

I agree. Slovenly using 'unsweet' connotes ignorance or laziness to me.

That's not a windmill...

[Ebby Calvin]

unpalatable

/golfclap

[94CougarGrad]

I can make tea well, whether sweetened, unsweetened, or English Breakfast. To me, tea is just called tea, but since just about every waitperson in the state assumes that you mean "iced tea with tons of sweetener in it" when you say "tea," and my husband is adamant about drinking iced tea without sugar in it, I have learnt to qualify the beverage.

[HudsonHawk]

That's what I fill up my tank with when I run in to buy undiet coke. 

Good thing you don't drink 7Up.  It's the uncola.

[strosrays]

Right now, I am horribly untanned.

[strosrays]

Come to think of it, horribly undrunk, too.

[austro]

Right now, I am horribly untanned.

Come to think of it, horribly undrunk, too.

One of those can be undone fairly easily.

[HudsonHawk]

One of those can be undone fairly easily.

I just opened a bottle of Woodford Reserve, and I'm not sure I'll finish it all myself.

[Ron Brand]

I just opened a bottle of Woodford Reserve, and I'm not sure I'll finish it all myself.

I'm staring at a bottle of 2007 Fritz Reserve Pinot, 18 yr Glenlivet, and Knob Creek. Just had a glass of 2009 Caymus Conundrum with dinner. For now, I'm drinking White Russians and watching Blow-up. It's an interesting evening in the Brand household.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm staring at a bottle of 2007 Fritz Reserve Pinot, 18 yr Glenlivet, and Knob Creek.

That's a helluva bottle.

Just had a glass of 2009 Caymus Conundrum with dinner. For now, I'm drinking White Russians and watching Blow-up. It's an interesting evening in the Brand household.

One of my favorite white wines.  But why "a glass"?

[BizidyDizidy]

Just polishing off a bottle of Agharta syrah.

[Ron Brand]

That's a helluva bottle.


One of my favorite white wines.  But why "a glass"?

Mrs. Brand no esta aqui, and it's her favorite wine. I have two or three other bottles, but this one is already chilled and it'll be nice for there to be some for her when she gets back...tomorrow or Sunday...and besides, I've become intrigued with White Russians at this point in the evening.

[HudsonHawk]

Mrs. Brand no esta aqui, and it's her favorite wine. I have two or three other bottles, but this one is already chilled and it'll be nice for there to be some for her when she gets back...tomorrow or Sunday...and besides, I've become intrigued with White Russians at this point in the evening.

I've never understood how one can open a bottle of wine and not finish it in one sitting.

[BizidyDizidy]

I've never understood how one can open a bottle of wine and not finish it in one sitting.

One bottle? What're you, some kind of pussy?

[Ron Brand]

I've never understood how one can open a bottle of wine and not finish it in one sitting.

Normally, yeah, but we started it Tuesday night for the Valentine's dinner I made. Then I had to go to work and she had to get up at 3:30 to fly out of town, so we each only had a glass. I took my second glass tonight because I used the shrimp and crabmeat cream sauce to dress some linguini for dinner. Unusual circumstances in this case.

[geezerdonk]

Can't remember what I had last night, but that Olde English 800 I'm having for breakfast is pretty darn good.

[Ron Brand]

Can't remember what I had last night, but that Olde English 800 I'm having for breakfast is pretty darn good.

Corn Flakes and T-Bird will get your motor running.

[strosrays]

Corn Flakes and T-Bird will get your motor running.

Mad Dog 20-20, which I believe was originally developed during the Cold War.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I've always had this sort of misplaced admiration for morning drinkers, I never could get restarted 'til after noon, before then it's all about the coffee for me.

[Ron Brand]

Mad Dog 20-20, which I believe was originally developed during the Cold War.

I think Mad Dog brings a delicate balance to a couple of convenience store Honey Buns.

[strosrays]

I think Mad Dog brings a delicate balance to a couple of convenience store Honey Buns.

At 7:00 in the morning, don't forget.

[Ron Brand]

At 7:00 in the morning, don't forget.

Whatever you do, don't put the Honey Buns in the microwave. You have to eat them cold.

[Ron Brand]

Mad Dog 20-20, which I believe was originally developed during the Cold War.

Sterno, but thinned to extend the rations.

[austro]

My wife went over to her friend's last night for their group's monthly get-together, and she came came home with 3 bottles from a 4-pack that the friend's husband didn't like. So I'm sitting here this afternoon enjoying 3 free bottles of Celebrator. It will probably not be a surprise to anybody that the guy is also a Cards fan.

[Ron Brand]

Outstanding!

[Bench]

I've always had this sort of misplaced admiration for morning drinkers, I never could get restarted 'til after noon, before then it's all about the coffee for me.

A breakfast cocktail to get started on a weekend day of grocery shopping, matinees, kid's school projects, and a leisurely dinner is a wonderful thing.  So my grandmother taught me. 

[Mr. Happy]

A breakfast cocktail to get started on a weekend day of grocery shopping, matinees, kid's school projects, and a leisurely dinner is a wonderful thing.  So my grandmother taught me. 

For years I maintained that beer was the breakfast of champions.

[MusicMan]

For years I maintained that beer was the breakfast of champions.

Funny, I just had brunch yesterday where a menu option was "Breakfast of Champions" and came with a pint.

[94CougarGrad]

Mad Dog 20-20, which I believe was originally developed during the Cold War.

Ugh. My first drunk (which occurred the night/morning prior to my Political Science 1331 exam) was a bottle and a half of grape Mad Dog and several glasses of Southern Comfort mixed with RC. I think I threw up my shoes, but I still managed to make it to my exam on time...and even made a B.

[Ron Brand]

Ugh. My first drunk (which occurred the night/morning prior to my Political Science 1331 exam) was a bottle and a half of grape Mad Dog and several glasses of Southern Comfort mixed with RC. I think I threw up my shoes, but I still managed to make it to my exam on time...and even made a B.

I drank a lot of Mad Dog in high school but I found it to be a remarkable catalyst in Trash Can Punch, for some unknown chemical reason.

[NeilT]

I drank a lot of Mad Dog in high school but I found it to be a remarkable catalyst in Trash Can Punch, for some unknown chemical reason.

You guys are scaring me.

[Ron Brand]

You guys are scaring me.

Go with your instincts.

[strosrays]

I drank a lot of Mad Dog in high school but I found it to be a remarkable catalyst in Trash Can Punch, for some unknown chemical reason.

I think the protons in the Mad Dog cells bond with the neutrons in the Everclear cells. The cells from the cheap vodka, gin, and tequila just stand around and clap, mostly.

[Ron Brand]

I think the protons in the Mad Dog cells bond with the neutrons in the Everclear cells. The cells from the cheap vodka, gin, and tequila just stand around and clap, mostly.

Makes for a party you always remember.

[JimR]

Makes for a party you always remember.

my two experiences with Everclear had the opposite effect.