The American League sucks

[OldBlevins]

Until 2013.  Then the National League sucks.

I don't give a hoot about the Cardinals or the Cubs or the Rangers or the Yankees or whoever.  Just the Astros.

I know the Astros and the fans got screwed but I'm still a fan.  Get over it and Go Astros!

[Fredia]

well said , but it still pulls at the heart strings..so much hatred for the coards the scrubs that took years to garner and dont even get me started on the boo hooo crew

[astros76]

I agree. In my opinion there is exactly one acceptable reason for a true fan to stop following a team... if the team moves to another city.

[Fynn]

Sorry, but the NL does not suck regardless of whether the astros are there.  The NL (for whatever time it remains DH free) holds the torch for REAL baseball.  The astros are joining the softball league....I am torn about that and will probably not follow them anymore.  I live in Dallas and have been to ONE Rangers game in the last 20 years (a pre-season game with the astros). To each their own, but I cannot follow the stros anymore.  

This board is incredible-HOF posters and I will continue to follow this board, but this is a day of incredible sadness for many.  Almost like a death in the family.  

[Mr. Happy]

I agree. In my opinion there is exactly one acceptable reason for a true fan to stop following a team... if the team moves to another city.

Agreed.

[JimR]

Agreed.

Disagree, but then again, i have never been a true fan

[subnuclear]

Crane's Astros are really going to be another team. If you don't follow them, I think you have some good reasons.

[Ron Brand]

Disagree, but then again, i have never been a true fan

Frontrunner.

[Reuben]

Sorry, but the NL does not suck regardless of whether the astros are there.  The NL (for whatever time it remains DH free) holds the torch for REAL baseball.

Agree wholeheartedly. That's what makes this so completely sickening, not just that Selig & co. are screwing over my team, but that they're screwing up my GAME. If (as looks likely) they soon institute the DH in both leagues, I will be really, really angry and sad. Even if the ALstros are still my favorite team.

[HudsonHawk]

Disagree, but then again, i have never been a true fan

I agree.  I'm pretty much resigned to not following the Astros any longer. 

[Nate in IA]

The first game I attended was in the Dome back in the early 70s as a wee tot.   I have only been to a handful of games in Houston, due to living most of my life under the influence of the drunks at Wrigley, but I did manage to make it to the All Star game in Houston.   I've followed the Astros through the years even while my family became Cubs fans.  I cannot follow them to the American League though.   Not even sure I'll re-up with mlb.tv next year.  Perhaps I'll start following the Rockies again since I did hold season tickets (with a group) to their games when I lived in Colorado and they were entertaining.  What a sad day.

[Mr. Happy]

Disagree, but then again, i have never been a true fan

Well, I would think that you would have considered yourself to be a true fan.

[JimR]

Well, I would think that you would have considered yourself to be a true fan.

i did, but i see you and 76 do not.

[Fynn]

Agree wholeheartedly. That's what makes this so completely sickening, not just that Selig & co. are screwing over my team, but that they're screwing up my GAME. If (as looks likely) they soon institute the DH in both leagues, I will be really, really angry and sad. Even if the ALstros are still my favorite team.

Makes me wonder whats next-metal bats? 

[Ron Brand]

Makes me wonder whats next-metal bats? 

Country Joe West, King of Umpires.

[austro]

Makes me wonder whats next-metal bats? 

Courtesy runners for the bloated DHs.

[DVauthrin]

Makes me wonder whats next-metal bats?  

Four starting outfielders.

[hostros7]

Four starting outfielders.

That would be too defensive-minded.  I'm thinking mobile bonus orbs behind the OF wall that score 5 runs if hit on the fly

[austro]

That would be too defensive-minded.  I'm thinking mobile bonus orbs behind the OF wall that score 5 runs if hit on the fly

Warning moat. "Gator got 'im!"

[Fynn]

Warning moat. "Gator got 'im!"

Actually I would be in favor of this (I am originally from Louisiana).

[Waldo]

Warning moat. "Gator got 'im!"

The floor of the Colosseum had trap doors that could release tigers and shit into the arena.  Wouldn't mind seeing that used on Angel Hernandez.

[drew corleone]

The only thing worse than the Astros moving is the high horse some people are showing toward those that suddenly feel apathetic.

Good for y'all... I wish I felt as okay with it, but I don't.

[Ron Brand]

The only thing worse than the Astros moving is the high horse some people are showing toward those that suddenly feel apathetic.

Good for y'all... I wish I felt as okay with it, but I don't.

Somebody here feels okay with it?

[Arky Vaughan]

The only thing worse than the Astros moving is the high horse some people are showing toward those that suddenly feel apathetic.

Good for y'all... I wish I felt as okay with it, but I don't.

Everyone has to make his own peace with this. Some will stop following, some will keep following, and I can see good arguments for both. We can all agree that this change sucks, and it changes the Astros forever.

[Noe]

To me, I already had a problem with the rumors because I hate AL baseball (with a passion).  But the more this played on this is what ultimately punched me in the stomach:

Over 40 years invested in this club and the NL and one day, a greedy local lame duck owner (and an entire league's worth of owners), a greedy set of players, a pathetic excuse for a commissioner, and a desperate owner to be just pulled the entire rug out from under me.  Just. Like. That.

No care in the world for the fans, the very people who are customers of their very product.  I know they are counting on a whole bunch of fence-sitting baseball fans who are sleeping through this whole affair, but I'm not one of those folks.  I am the fan who has given much to this team and in the end, they... all of them... punched me in the stomach and laughed in my face.

I'm supposed to forgive that?

I can't.  I couldn't forgive Bud Adams for stealing away my Luv Ya Blue team and turning them into a Nashville product, so he cut ties with me, I cut ties with him.  When the last bag was packed, I stopped caring one iota for that team and frankly for the NFL as a whole.  Not even the Texans have been able to bring me back.  So will I follow the Astros?  No more than I will follow anything else in baseball, now as an uninvested fan of the game.  

I have no more team, they basically told me I don't matter.

Everything, I mean every doggone thing that went into my Astros fandom was betrayed today and one joker after another standing on a podium and patting themselves on the back and looking to move "forward" isn't going to change my deep sorrow and pain at this upper cut to the solar plexes.  And then to offer me discounted hot dogs and duckets to make it all better?  I, like Limey, feel my best recourse is to save my money and quit giving it to these greedy bastards any more.  They are not providing me a good product as it were, but to back that up with an even more callous and disheartening attitude to boot? Don't even start to chide me for being a casual fan or a bandwaggoner... this has nothing to do with winning and losing, this... THIS... has to do with decency and just plain ol' common integrity.

I don't need them any more and they certainly told me they don't care one damn bit either.

[D.H.]

For me, it's always been about the baseball, never the periphery- the stadium, the food, the music, the unis, the Milo. The assclowns who now run the Astros are clueless in baseball and can only manage the periphery. It's pathetic. And, it's grating, as if I/we care more about the price of nachos than about wins and losses. We've been debased.

I will say this- this website has some wickedly talented contributors. I hope you guys can find enough off-topic stuff to keep you engaged.

[Ty in Tampa]

My feeling is that the Astros and MLB no longer deserve my support. To be so cavalier in their actions toward a single team and fanbase, with the only reasoning for said actions being "he has to do it" tells me they could give two shits about me. So why the fuck should I put money in their pockets, for any reason?

[Ebby Calvin]

I don't begrudge anybody for severing ties with the team or the league.  I'm not going to, but that doesn't mean I'm doing the right or wrong thing.  The whole thing stinks, but this is the worst:

To be so cavalier in their actions toward a single team and fanbase, with the only reasoning for said actions being "he has to do it" tells me they could give two shits about me.

To Ty and strosrays and Coach and Noe and Limey and drew and chuck and whoever else is moving on: Please don't punish those who are going to stick around.  Watching a shitty team in a shitty league is painful enough - don't make us do it on our own.  I sincerely hope each and every one of you hangs around SnS in full capacity.  Don't leave me alone with Ron Brand - please!

[Ty in Tampa]

To Ty and strosrays and Coach and Noe and Limey and drew and chuck and whoever else is moving on: Please don't punish those who are going to stick around.  Watching a shitty team in a shitty league is painful enough - don't make us do it on our own.  I sincerely hope each and every one of you hangs around SnS in full capacity.  Don't leave me alone with Ron Brand - please!

Thanks for the kind words. I ain't going anywhere. I'm just done giving up my hard earned cash to an entity that doesn't care at all about me or an entire city that has supported a team with a very real history that means something to them. I may not be able to do recaps anymore since I won't pay for MLB.TV but I'll be spewing my bile here for as long as they'll have me.

[MusicMan]

My feeling is that the Astros and MLB no longer deserve my support. To be so cavalier in their actions toward a single team and fanbase, with the only reasoning for said actions being "he has to do it" tells me they could give two shits about me. So why the fuck should I put money in their pockets, for any reason?

I guess my feeling is that the Astros are my team, for better or worse, richer or poorer, etc.

I'm not leaving them, but I am begging them to go to counseling with me.

[Ty in Tampa]

I guess my feeling is that the Astros are my team, for better or worse, richer or poorer, etc.

I'm not leaving them, but I am begging them to go to counseling with me.

I want to clarify...I'm just not going to financially support them in any way. I will still love the team, novelty act that they are, for as long as I can stand it.

And I reserve the right to change my opinion come February.

[OldBlevins]

Sorry, but the NL does not suck regardless of whether the astros are there.  The NL (for whatever time it remains DH free) holds the torch for REAL baseball.  The astros are joining the softball league....I am torn about that and will probably not follow them anymore.  I live in Dallas and have been to ONE Rangers game in the last 20 years (a pre-season game with the astros). To each their own, but I cannot follow the stros anymore.  

This board is incredible-HOF posters and I will continue to follow this board, but this is a day of incredible sadness for many.  Almost like a death in the family.  

No, the NL does not really suck.  That was just hyperbole.  But come 2013 I'll be rooting for the AL because that's where my team is.

[kevwun]

Makes me wonder whats next-metal bats? 

T-ball rules.  Everyone bats in an inning and they will no longer keep track of outs.

[BudGirl]

I don't begrudge anybody for severing ties with the team or the league.  I'm not going to, but that doesn't mean I'm doing the right or wrong thing.  The whole thing stinks, but this is the worst:

To Ty and strosrays and Coach and Noe and Limey and drew and chuck and whoever else is moving on: Please don't punish those who are going to stick around.  Watching a shitty team in a shitty league is painful enough - don't make us do it on our own.  I sincerely hope each and every one of you hangs around SnS in full capacity.  Don't leave me alone with Ron Brand - please!

I feel like all my friends are leaving me.  Not only are the Astros going to play fake baseall, but they seem to be taking my friends away.

[MusicMan]

T-ball rules.  Everyone bats in an inning and they will no longer keep track of outs.

Ghost runner on first!

[Limey]

To Ty and strosrays and Coach and Noe and Limey and drew and chuck and whoever else is moving on: Please don't punish those who are going to stick around.  Watching a shitty team in a shitty league is painful enough - don't make us do it on our own.  I sincerely hope each and every one of you hangs around SnS in full capacity.  Don't leave me alone with Ron Brand - please!

As the saintly Mother Theresa was in the habit of saying, "buy me a beer and I might stick around."

[HudsonHawk]

I don't begrudge anybody for severing ties with the team or the league.  I'm not going to, but that doesn't mean I'm doing the right or wrong thing.  The whole thing stinks, but this is the worst:

To Ty and strosrays and Coach and Noe and Limey and drew and chuck and whoever else is moving on: Please don't punish those who are going to stick around.  Watching a shitty team in a shitty league is painful enough - don't make us do it on our own.  I sincerely hope each and every one of you hangs around SnS in full capacity.  Don't leave me alone with Ron Brand - please!

Just to clarify my own stance..I'm not going anywhere and the site isn't going anywhere. Like Jim mentioned earlier, there are many people here I truly consider dear friends. I couldn't leave them. I just don't think I'm going to be an Astros fan any longer.

[Ty in Tampa]

Just to clarify my own stance..I'm not going anywhere and the site isn't going anywhere. Like Jim mentioned earlier, there are many people here I truly consider dear friends. I couldn't leave them. I just don't think I'm going to be an Astros fan any longer.

spikesnmorespikes.com

[MusicMan]

spikesnmorespikes.com

I'm guessing that's a gay porn domain.

[austro]

I'm guessing that's a gay porn domain.

Of course it is. It's where Astros fans take it up the ass.

[MusicMan]

It's where Astros fans take it up the ass.

That's mlb.com.

[hostros7]

To me, I already had a problem with the rumors because I hate AL baseball (with a passion).  But the more this played on this is what ultimately punched me in the stomach:

Over 40 years invested in this club and the NL and one day, a greedy local lame duck owner (and an entire league's worth of owners), a greedy set of players, a pathetic excuse for a commissioner, and a desperate owner to be just pulled the entire rug out from under me.  Just. Like. That.

No care in the world for the fans, the very people who are customers of their very product.  I know they are counting on a whole bunch of fence-sitting baseball fans who are sleeping through this whole affair, but I'm not one of those folks.  I am the fan who has given much to this team and in the end, they... all of them... punched me in the stomach and laughed in my face.

I'm supposed to forgive that?

I can't.  I couldn't forgive Bud Adams for stealing away my Luv Ya Blue team and turning them into a Nashville product, so he cut ties with me, I cut ties with him.  When the last bag was packed, I stopped caring one iota for that team and frankly for the NFL as a whole.  Not even the Texans have been able to bring me back.  So will I follow the Astros?  No more than I will follow anything else in baseball, now as an uninvested fan of the game.  

I have no more team, they basically told me I don't matter.

I don't need them any more and they certainly told me they don't care one damn bit either.

We can all empathize with your feelings.  I share many of them.  However, how is this a surprise to you?  The truth is that the MLB (and the Astros) are just soulless corporate entities trying to make a profit for their shareholders.  It's no different from the GAP, HEB, Walmart.  The fact Crane and Co. ran their financial models with a move to the AL west at the reduced purchase price.  They probably factored in 15k people at the gate and reduced merchandise sales (but expect to see some exciting new flare to galvanize the masses soon!!!).  However, between guaranteed money from radio and TV contracts and revenue sharing, the numbers still worked and Crane and partners still will turn a nice profit.  This was their downside case.  Everyone fucking hates us.  Guess what?  The ownership group still makes money because of a combination of the lower purchase price, leverage, and revenue sharing.  Any winning or rebuilt goodwill with the fans will just make returns look all the more gangbusters.  

Either enjoy baseball or don't.  Find a new NL team or just become a mason in your free summer months.  It will be a personal decision for each of us.  However, keep the hokey "no one cares about US" stuff under wraps.  Sadly, noblesse oblige as it relates to baseball ownership is dead and has been dead for a long time.  

2012 Astros: Hey, at least it's not Frank McCourt.

[austro]

2012 Astros: Hey, at least it's not Frank McCourt.

We don't know that yet.

[Ron Brand]

We can all empathize with your feelings.  I share many of them.  However, how is this a surprise to you?  The truth is that the MLB (and the Astros) are just soulless corporate entities trying to make a profit for their shareholders.  It's no different from the GAP, HEB, Walmart.  The fact Crane and Co. ran their financial models with a move to the AL west at the reduced purchase price.  They probably factored in 15k people at the gate and reduced merchandise sales (but expect to see some exciting new flare to galvanize the masses soon!!!).  However, between guaranteed money from radio and TV contracts and revenue sharing, the numbers still worked and Crane and partners still will turn a nice profit.  This was their downside case.  Everyone fucking hates us.  Guess what?  The ownership group still makes money because of a combination of the lower purchase price, leverage, and revenue sharing.  Any winning or rebuilt goodwill with the fans will just make returns look all the more gangbusters.  

Either enjoy baseball or don't.  Find a new NL team or just become a mason in your free summer months.  It will be a personal decision for each of us.  However, keep the hokey "no one cares about US" stuff under wraps.  Sadly, noblesse oblige as it relates to baseball ownership is dead and has been dead for a long time.  

2012 Astros: Hey, at least it's not Frank McCourt.

I don't put quite the fine point on it that you do, but I was really surprised to see that there are so few of us here on Cynic Island. I thought there were more of us, frankly.

What in the past has led any of you to the conclusion that the owners and MLB have given even the slightest of shits as to what the fans think, unless it led them to more profit than they have at any given moment in time? I don't think I've felt that way since I read Ball Four when it came out.

They don't care. I don't think they have since the 1800s. This isn't news at all.

[Limey]

I don't put quite the fine point on it that you do, but I was really surprised to see that there are so few of us here on Cynic Island. I thought there were more of us, frankly.

What in the past has led any of you to the conclusion that the owners and MLB have given even the slightest of shits as to what the fans think, unless it led them to more profit than they have at any given moment in time? I don't think I've felt that way since I read Ball Four when it came out.

They don't care. I don't think they have since the 1800s. This isn't news at all.

This is why it's important to me to show them that I am not going to get pushed around.  The only way they will listen to that opinion is if it's expressed clearly on their bottom line.  I hope the $70mm discount pales into insignificance when they tally the lost revenue from home games that no one cares about and road games on too late for anyone to watch.

[Ron Brand]

This is why it's important to me to show them that I am not going to get pushed around.  The only way they will listen to that opinion is if it's expressed clearly on their bottom line.  I hope the $70mm discount pales into insignificance when they tally the lost revenue from home games that no one cares about and road games on too late for anyone to watch.

And then they'll move, and the people who don't care will go on not caring, and those of use who are left (Ebby? We're not alone, are we?) will get the bill. Wonderful.

[Ty in Tampa]

They don't care. I don't think they have since the 1800s. This isn't news at all.

I'm just fucking tired of it. Bud Selig can eat my shit and like it.

[MusicMan]

I'm just fucking tired of it. Bud Selig can eat my shit and like it.

This is why he needs to be tail end of the human centipede with Crane and Drayton.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

At very least, it would be nice of Crane to say something to the effect of, "I'm really sorry that this is my introduction to you fans, but this is the way it had to be.  If it wasn't me, it would've been somebody else who would've signed off on this move.  I hope that you'll continue to support the team.  I know I have my work cut out for me to get in your good graces, and I assure you that I'll do everything I can, from lowering ticket prices to investing in players at all levels, to do exactly that."

Even if it was all bullshit and he raised the prices and traded Singleton and Cosart, at least it would show that he's not the aloof motherfucker that he appears to be right now.

[Noe]

I don't begrudge anybody for severing ties with the team or the league.  I'm not going to, but that doesn't mean I'm doing the right or wrong thing.  The whole thing stinks, but this is the worst:

To Ty and strosrays and Coach and Noe and Limey and drew and chuck and whoever else is moving on: Please don't punish those who are going to stick around.  Watching a shitty team in a shitty league is painful enough - don't make us do it on our own.  I sincerely hope each and every one of you hangs around SnS in full capacity.  Don't leave me alone with Ron Brand - please!

Same as Ty, it is the level of interest I have for the MLB that has generally gone away and of course, it does pain me to say goodbye to the 'Stros, but they're not going to be the same team I remember from my ute!  They may as well have packed their bags in the middle of the night and moved to Oklahoma to me... it's the same difference.  I'm sure Nolan and the Rangers are happy now and that seems to be all that matters to those idiots.

[Mr. Happy]

At very least, it would be nice of Crane to say something to the effect of, "I'm really sorry that this is my introduction to you fans, but this is the way it had to be.  If it wasn't me, it would've been somebody else who would've signed off on this move.  I hope that you'll continue to support the team.  I know I have my work cut out for me to get in your good graces, and I assure you that I'll do everything I can, from lowering ticket prices to investing in players at all levels, to do exactly that."

Even if it was all bullshit and he raised the prices and traded Singleton and Cosart, at least it would show that he's not the aloof motherfucker that he appears to be right now.

It appears that they've taken a "no apologies" approach.

[MusicMan]

It appears that they've taken a "no apologies" approach.

They've achieved Nirvana.

[Noe]

And then they'll move, and the people who don't care will go on not caring, and those of use who are left (Ebby? We're not alone, are we?) will get the bill. Wonderful.

Newsflash... they kinda already told you that they're capable of anything at anytime.  They were the ones who bailed on me, not the other way around.  You want me to keep fully vested in THAT sort of relationship?  You're a mad man... MAD I tells ya!

[Noe]

We can all empathize with your feelings.  I share many of them.  However, how is this a surprise to you?  The truth is that the MLB (and the Astros) are just soulless corporate entities trying to make a profit for their shareholders.  It's no different from the GAP, HEB, Walmart.  The fact Crane and Co. ran their financial models with a move to the AL west at the reduced purchase price.  They probably factored in 15k people at the gate and reduced merchandise sales (but expect to see some exciting new flare to galvanize the masses soon!!!).  However, between guaranteed money from radio and TV contracts and revenue sharing, the numbers still worked and Crane and partners still will turn a nice profit.  This was their downside case.  Everyone fucking hates us.  Guess what?  The ownership group still makes money because of a combination of the lower purchase price, leverage, and revenue sharing.  Any winning or rebuilt goodwill with the fans will just make returns look all the more gangbusters.  

Either enjoy baseball or don't.  Find a new NL team or just become a mason in your free summer months.  It will be a personal decision for each of us.  However, keep the hokey "no one cares about US" stuff under wraps.  Sadly, noblesse oblige as it relates to baseball ownership is dead and has been dead for a long time.  

2012 Astros: Hey, at least it's not Frank McCourt.

I'm not sure why you think this was worthy of being posted for my sake... it isn't.  You cannot own my feelings and my investment (and betrayal).  I got the same sort of crappy advice about following the Oilers to Tennessee.  No way, the whole thing died that day.... as it did yesterday for me.  The level of investment is not there any more and you can keep your advice as to what I can keep under wraps to yourself. 

I don't care what you think I should feel or not.

[Noe]

At very least, it would be nice of Crane to say something to the effect of, "I'm really sorry that this is my introduction to you fans, but this is the way it had to be.  If it wasn't me, it would've been somebody else who would've signed off on this move.  I hope that you'll continue to support the team.  I know I have my work cut out for me to get in your good graces, and I assure you that I'll do everything I can, from lowering ticket prices to investing in players at all levels, to do exactly that."

Even if it was all bullshit and he raised the prices and traded Singleton and Cosart, at least it would show that he's not the aloof motherfucker that he appears to be right now.

This. This right here.

[kevwun]

We don't know that yet.

Exactly.  Crane has done absolutely nothing so far that indicates he's going to be even a decent owner.  He's done a couple of things that indicate he's going to suck balls.

[hostros7]

I'm not sure why you think this was worthy of being posted for my sake... it isn't.  You cannot own my feelings and my investment (and betrayal).  I got the same sort of crappy advice about following the Oilers to Tennessee.  No way, the whole thing died that day.... as it did yesterday for me.  The level of investment is not there any more and you can keep your advice as to what I can keep under wraps to yourself. 

I don't care what you think I should feel or not.

I explicitly said that everyone's reaction and decision on how to move forward with or without the franchise will and should be a personal one.  Personally, I'm happy to know there are some among us that aren't as jaded as I am.  

My only direct response is that the Astros are still the HOUSTON Astros, whereas the Oilers became the Tennessee Oilers and then the Titans.  As a lifelong Houstonian, that makes a difference for me, but I can certainly see how it might be different for other Astros fans.  Again, as I said, "it will be a personal decision for each of us."

Just don't think I ever would tell anyone what to think or feel about anything.  To do so would be a level of arrogance that I fortunately do not have.  

[Noe]

Exactly.  Crane has done absolutely nothing so far that indicates he's going to be even a decent owner.  He's done a couple of things that indicate he's going to suck balls.

His five minute presser yesterday was a masterpiece of bad PR too.  If that's what we get, a "you'll eat this and LIKE it too" attitude, then count me out.  I expected more and it was not delivered.

[Noe]

I explicitly said that everyone's reaction and decision on how to move forward with or without the franchise will and should be a personal one.  Personally, I'm happy to know there are some among us that aren't as jaded as I am.  

My only direct response is that the Astros are still the HOUSTON Astros, whereas the Oilers became the Tennessee Oilers and then the Titans.  As a lifelong Houstonian, that makes a difference for me, but I can certainly see how it might be different for other Astros fans.  Again, as I said, "it will be a personal decision for each of us."

Just don't think I ever would tell anyone what to think or feel about anything.  To do so would be a level of arrogance that I fortunately do not have.  

Cool.

[kevwun]

Saying you'll need to increase revenue before you raise the payroll isn't exactly reassuring when the team is currently terrible.

[Limey]

His five minute presser yesterday was a masterpiece of bad PR too.  If that's what we get, a "you'll eat this and LIKE it too" attitude, then count me out.  I expected more and it was not delivered.

He thinks that Houston will be impressed by his pledge to adopt the Dallas model.  Oops.

[Guinness]

Ebby? We're not alone, are we?

As long as they don't start playing Jandek between innings you're not

[Noe]

He thinks that Houston will be impressed by his pledge to adopt the Dallas model.  Oops.

Seriously, when he said that, he was now just being downright mean about things (spoken in best Larry the Cable Guy voice).  One of the low points in a series of low points for that presser too.

[Don]

He thinks that Houston will be impressed by his pledge to adopt the Dallas model.  Oops.

So far, he seems oddly out-of-touch with his market for a supposedly-successful Houston businessman.

[Noe]

So far, he seems oddly out-of-touch with his market for a supposedly-successful Houston businessman.

*DING, DING, DING*

[Limey]

So far, he seems oddly out-of-touch with his market for a supposedly-successful Houston businessman.

...from Missouri.

[kevwun]

So far, he seems oddly out-of-touch with his market for a supposedly-successful Houston businessman.

If he's set on taking the $150 million per year profit he'll get no matter how little he puts in to the club, it makes some sense.  Being a deadbeat MLB owner is a lucrative business.  A smart guy would do just about anything to get in on the deal.

[WakePhil]

...from Missouri.

My father used to say that the only native Houstonians he knew were his children. Crane's been here 31 years, I think that qualifies him as a Houstonian, an out of touch Houstonian.

[HudsonHawk]

My father used to say that the only native Houstonians he knew were his children. He's been here 21 years, I think that qualifies him as a Houstonian, an out of touch Houstonian.

I've been here 23 years, most of my adult life.  I consider myself a Houstonian.

[Astroholic]

After reading all of yalls post I have come to the conclusion that I just don't know where I stand.  Sitting on the fence.  I guess I could be brought back into the fold in a few years but much like the Oilers leaving..I am numb.  I follow the Texans, but not like I did with the Oilers.  I use to like the Rockets, but I really don't care anymore(and neither does the NBA at this point).  I love the Coogs, can't get enough, but to be honest, the NCAA is really screwing things up.  High school football gets some of my time and money, and probably always will.  Stros..well, I am just sad.  I am sad that the opening day tradition may change.  I am sad that many of you on this site might not care enough to keep it going or keep posting.  I am sad about alot of things.  Fuck you Bud Seagull.  Fuck You!

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Fuck you Bud Seagull.  Fuck You!

Autocorrect?  If not, I fail to see an adequate insult in calling him seagull...

[Ty in Tampa]

Autocorrect?  If not, I fail to see an adequate insult in calling him seagull...

I don't know. He flies around and shits on people who feed him.

[Astroholic]

Autocorrect?  If not, I fail to see an adequate insult in calling him seagull...

whats auto correct and how do i use it?  What do you want me to call him? I care very little about getting that cocksuckers name spelled correctly.

[kevwun]

The difference being that if he flew off with my bait after a cast instead of jerking it away I would let him swallow it with the hope of reeling him in so I could beat him to death with a shoe.

[Jacksonian]

The difference being that if he flew off with my bait after a cast instead of jerking it away I would let him swallow it with the hope of reeling him in so I could beat him to death with a shoe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwpRHrAh3pk

[EasTexAstro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwpRHrAh3pk

Was that Scooter's cousin?

[chuck]

If he's set on taking the $150 million per year profit he'll get no matter how little he puts in to the club, it makes some sense.  Being a deadbeat MLB owner is a lucrative business.  A smart guy would do just about anything to get in on the deal.

The owners of teams like the Royals and the Pirates make $150MM a year. The owner of a team in a much bigger market with a much better broadcast deal will make much more regardless of how terrible the organization is or what the fuck league it plays in.

Like Limey I would love to see Crane lose his ass on this deal but I simply don't see how he can. The broadcast deal is locked in from what I understand. Even if no one comes to MMP - unlikely given the outstanding menu items available and diverting mid-inning entertainment - television will still pay him a shitload of money.

[Waldo]

I don't know. He flies around and shits on people who feed him.

Will he explode if you feed him Alka-Seltzer?

[Ty in Tampa]

Will he explode if you feed him Alka-Seltzer?

Let's try!

[kevwun]

The owners of teams like the Royals and the Pirates make $150MM a year. The owner of a team in a much bigger market with a much better broadcast deal will make much more regardless of how terrible the organization is or what the fuck league it plays in.

Like Limey I would love to see Crane lose his ass on this deal but I simply don't see how he can. The broadcast deal is locked in from what I understand. Even if no one comes to MMP - unlikely given the outstanding menu items available and diverting mid-inning entertainment - television will still pay him a shitload of money.

I used 150 because, like you said, that's the floor of what Crane's yearly profit will be.  Keeping Pam around combined with saying revenue has to increase before the payroll will, really makes me question why Crane bought the Astros.  The owners know who among them actively wants to win and who's content to sit back and cash checks.  I wonder if some of Nolan Ryan's happiness about this is because Crane is in the latter group.

[MusicMan]

Let's try!

I think of him drinking from the wrong cup in Last Crusade.

[austro]

The owners know who among them actively wants to win and who's content to sit back and cash checks.

Bingo. There are probably 10 owners actively trying to win, and if they can bring in another stool pigeon who's only in it for the revenue stream, so much the better for them.

[Limey]

Bingo. There are probably 10 owners actively trying to win, and if they can bring in another stool pigeon who's only in it for the revenue stream, so much the better for them.

Who, inadvertently, inflates the values of all their franchises.

[BizidyDizidy]

I do not believe he can easily clear 150MM on the team - KKR would've bought it for more than 600MM if that was the case

[kevwun]

That's how much Kansas City makes each year doing absolutely nothing.

[BizidyDizidy]

That's how much Kansas City makes each year doing absolutely nothing.

I admit I have no idea what these teams make, but a business that cash flows 150MM a year with almost no risk cannot be bought for 600MM.

[Limey]

I admit I have no idea what these teams make, but a business that cash flows 150MM a year with almost no risk cannot be bought for 600MM.

Insurance brokerages typically go for 2-3 years' revenue.

[BizidyDizidy]

Insurance brokerages typically go for 2-3 years' revenue.

They have no repeatable business - everything depends the next sale. Trading shops are the same way - usually around 2 years.

The Astros are going to make pretty much the same thing no matter what for the next 30 years - they are probably closer to 8x cash flow at least

[BizidyDizidy]

Insurance brokerages typically go for 2-3 years' revenue.

Also assuming you meant cash flow not revenue (I assume they pay you guys something and the two aren't equal)

[kevwun]

The Packers are the only NFL team that you can find reliable revenue numbers for.  In 2009, they made $258 million.  Forbes' valued them in Sept of 2009 at 1 billion.  The Astros made $189 million in 2010 and I'm sure it was down last year.  In the same article Forbes valued them at $453.  Maybe requiring league approval brings the price down?  It eliminates foreigners(until MLB proves willing to do it) and many potential buyers in the US.

[BizidyDizidy]

Not talking revenue - cash flow (subtract out all cash expenses). Revenue not a very useful number valuewise.

[NeilT]

Not talking revenue - cash flow (subtract out all cash expenses). Revenue not a very useful number valuewise.

Now wait.  Isn't cash flow the amount of cash generated during a period?  Isn't that the same as gross revenue?   Do you mean net revenue when you say cash flow?  I don't deal much with non-governmental accounting, or valuation, but this seems odd to me, and confjusing.

[BizidyDizidy]

Now wait.  Isn't cash flow the amount of cash generated during a period?  Isn't that the same as gross revenue?   Do you mean net revenue when you say cash flow?  I don't deal much with non-governmental accounting, or valuation, but this seems odd to me, and confjusing.

Cash flow is how much cash "flows" out of a business in a year. Cash revenues less cash expenses (ignoring depreciation, etc.)

[BizidyDizidy]

Now wait.  Isn't cash flow the amount of cash generated during a period?  Isn't that the same as gross revenue?   Do you mean net revenue when you say cash flow?  I don't deal much with non-governmental accounting, or valuation, but this seems odd to me, and confjusing.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/operatingcashflow.asp#axzz1e68twKr7

[kevwun]

You're right the 150 is revenue.  Profits are much lower, around 20 million for 07 through 09.  Dropped to 7 in 2010.  No idea on 2011.  My fault.

[BizidyDizidy]

You're right the 150 is revenue.  Profits are much lower, around 20 million for 07 through 09.  Dropped to 7 in 2010.  No idea on 2011.

My guess is 600-700 comes out on the high side (20 is earnings which includes a lot of non-cash items and so is likely artificially low). I've looked at franchises (albeit in other sports ) and they were certainly not printing presses on their own. Most of the expected return is in appreciation (more like art than a cash generating business.

[kevwun]

Here's the article with all the numbers.  You'll be able to glean more from it than me.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/33/baseball-values-09_Houston-Astros_335701.html

[Limey]

Cash flow is how much cash "flows" out of a business in a year. Cash revenues less cash expenses (ignoring depreciation, etc.)

I still don't understand why you call it cash flow, not net revenue, but insurance brokerages typically go for 2-3 times gross revenue.

I understand your point about the guaranteed income element of a baseball franchise.

[BizidyDizidy]

I still don't understand why you call it cash flow, not net revenue, but insurance brokerages typically go for 2-3 times gross revenue.

I understand your point about the guaranteed income element of a baseball franchise.

I don't know what the cost structure of a brokerage is, but if it was a 50% margin business then that would be 4-6x cash flow (could call it EBITDA if you'd rather?).

I think the S&P 500 is trading somewhere around 8-9 times EBITDA.

[Limey]

Here's the article with all the numbers.  You'll be able to glean more from it than me.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/33/baseball-values-09_Houston-Astros_335701.html

$17mm = earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization.  So the team makes less than $17mm / year profit.

Even if you don't deduct interest and taxes (I suspect the new ownership group will be paying lots of interest), $17mm / $680mm = 2.50% ROI.  That easily gets eaten up by taxes and interest.

Of course, that was based on a payroll amount of $111mm.  The only way this works is for them to slash...properly slash...payroll.

[BizidyDizidy]

$17mm = earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization.  So the team makes less than $17mm / year profit.

Even if you don't deduct interest and taxes (I suspect the new ownership group will be paying lots of interest), $17mm / $680mm = 2.50% ROI.  That easily gets eaten up by taxes and interest.

Of course, that was based on a payroll amount of $111mm.  The only way this works is for them to slash...properly slash...payroll.

For the purposes of that calculation you should ignore interest - to the extent there is debt, the denominator is also reduced to calculate their "yield".

You cannot make money buying something at 40x EBITDA - 10x is expensive. Crane would be better off buying TBills at that level just from a cash flow evaluation.

My guess is he thinks he can get something like 50-70Mm EBITDA and is hoping for appreciation (think of these teams more like a painting than a business. They aren't making any more of them)

[kevwun]

So Crane couldn't bump up the payroll even if he wanted to?

[Limey]

My guess is he thinks he can get something like 50-70Mm EBITDA and is hoping for appreciation (think of these teams more like a painting than a business. They aren't making any more of them)

My layman's gut reaction is that he's off his rocker and selling himself and - more importantly - his consortium members - up shit creek without a bailout.  There is no way that this the franchise is appreciating in the short term.  The impact of the lost revenue from the move and crappy team will depreciate the team's value.

In the long term, payroll will be going up as his myriad of promised farm prospects hit the big club roster and start getting paid.  If there aren't any, the continued malaise will see no improvement in revenue.  The team needs to improve notably before his fat TV contract runs out.  Plus, the stadium will be getting older and his sweet lease from the city will be shortening.  This will only put further downward pressure on the franchise's value.

If they make a cent, they'll be lucky.  They have $70mm in the bank to fall back on, but I suspect/hope that the losses erase that in the space of a few years.

[Limey]

So Crane couldn't bump up the payroll even if he wanted to?

He's shot his load on buying the team.  The Astros don't have, as we say in Limeyland, a pot to piss in.

[BizidyDizidy]

So Crane couldn't bump up the payroll even if he wanted to?

There are generally two profitable approaches - having a good team and packing the place or just being shitty and cheap. Assuming the costs to have a game a relatively fixed, every 10k additional attendance is probably something like 30-40MM to the bottom line. If the difference between a shitty team and a good team is 20k seats a night, that gives you some room to pay players. It also helps on the appreciation side. The risk is that you end up like the old rangers team, paying a lot for a shitty team. Being the pirates/royals is a safer model.

[Limey]

There are generally two profitable approaches - having a good team and packing the place or just being shitty and cheap. Assuming the costs to have a game a relatively fixed, every 10k additional attendance is probably something like 30-40MM to the bottom line. If the difference between a shitty team and a good team is 20k seats a night, that gives you some room to pay players. It also helps on the appreciation side. The risk is that you end up like the old rangers team, paying a lot for a shitty team. Being the pirates/royals is a safer model.

From kevwun's link, the average seat price was $29.  Say the average lackey spends $10 on concessions, that's $39/ais, which is $63mm ($39 x 20k x 81).

[BizidyDizidy]

My layman's gut reaction is that he's off his rocker and selling himself and - more importantly - his consortium members - up shit creek without a bailout.  There is no way that this the franchise is appreciating in the short term.  The impact of the lost revenue from the move and crappy team will depreciate the team's value.

In the long term, payroll will be going up as his myriad of promised farm prospects hit the big club roster and start getting paid.  If there aren't any, the continued malaise will see no improvement in revenue.  The team needs to improve notably before his fat TV contract runs out.  Plus, the stadium will be getting older and his sweet lease from the city will be shortening.  This will only put further downward pressure on the franchise's value.

If they make a cent, they'll be lucky.  They have $70mm in the bank to fall back on, but I suspect/hope that the losses erase that in the space of a few years.

I bet he and they make money. The next owner to lose on a team will be the first. They keep making more ego hungry billionaires but not making more sports teams.

My point was just that he won't be ringing the cash register in the short term.

[BizidyDizidy]

From kevwun's link, the average seat price was $29.  Say the average lackey spends $10 on concessions, that's $39/ais, which is $63mm ($39 x 20k x 81).

That was my guess of 30-40MM per 10k seats

[austro]

From kevwun's link, the average seat price was $29.  Say the average lackey spends $10 on concessions, that's $39/ais, which is $63mm ($39 x 20k x 81).

$10/ass seems a bit optimistic. On the other hand, I haven't donated to Drayton's coffers for a couple of years.

[BizidyDizidy]

$10/ass seems a bit optimistic. On the other hand, I haven't donated to Drayton's coffers for a couple of years.

Spoken like someone who has never bought a $12 beer