GG Officially Cast Off

[Alkie]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7064257/injured-texas-longhorns-quarterback-garrett-gilbert-transfer

Good riddance.

[Jacksonian]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7064257/injured-texas-longhorns-quarterback-garrett-gilbert-transfer

Good riddance.

He'll go to OU.  Sit out a year.  And in 2013 lead them past Texas and win the Big 2 championship.

[Alkie]

He'll go to OU.  Sit out a year.  And in 2013 lead them past Texas and win the Big 2 championship.

I'll bet you any amount of American Dollars you like.  Name it.

[Ebby Calvin]

I still feel for the kid.  I know, I know - he could've performed better.  No arguments here.  But he was poorly coached and stepping into some mighty big shoes (VY, Colt).  He was also highly touted and grew up a Longhorn fan - then booed on his home turf two years later.  And never bitched.

I'm happy the Horns are handing Ash the reins (with or without GG's injury), and I'm happy Gilbert is looking to redeem himself elsewhere.  I think he might need it more than we do.  Win-win, in my opinion.

ETA: But if he ends up a Sooner or Aggie, fuck him.

[MusicMan]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7064257/injured-texas-longhorns-quarterback-garrett-gilbert-transfer

Good riddance.

I have no need for the "Good riddance".

Good luck.  Kid did his damnedest, just wasn't meant to be.

[Lurch]

I have no need for the "Good riddance".

Good luck.  Kid did his damnedest, just wasn't meant to be.

This.

[Arky Vaughan]

Very few people ever get the chance to step into the spotlight they've always dreamed of. Gilbert did, and then everything unraveled. That must suck.

[Mr. Happy]

Very few people ever get the chance to step into the spotlight they've always dreamed of. Gilbert did, and then everything unraveled. That must suck.

I agree. I feel for the kid. People forget that he's still a fragile youth, barely past his teenage years. Fans can be oblivious to this. That's why all fans who boo kids suck eggs.

[drew corleone]

I have no need for the "Good riddance".

Good luck.  Kid did his damnedest, just wasn't meant to be.

Yep. Our fanbase can be pretty callous sometimes.

[Mr. Happy]

Yep. Our fanbase can be pretty callous sometimes.

Sadly, UT is not alone in this regard. It pisses me off so much, or at least used to, that I could barely go to games for fear of confronting and wanting to throttle some drunk asshole who's such a coward to boo kids. Sometimes, family members of the kid being booed are within earshot. I pointed out a kid's parents to an asshole sitting near me who was cussing a kid. I did this with delight.

[Limey]

Very few people ever get the chance to step into the spotlight they've always dreamed of. Gilbert did, and then everything unraveled. That must suck.

It's better to have loved and lost...

[JimR]

Zach, even for you that is an outrageous post. by all accounts, the kid is all class. i should never be surprised by stuff you say, but this one did.

[Rebel Jew]

I love how teams like UT have these gigantic stadiums, their own TV deals, kajillions of dollars in their athletic budgets, get bantered about on ESPN, yet it can still also be "this poor kid just gave it his all gosh darnnit."

[geezerdonk]

If he ends up at SMU, it will fascinating to see what June Jones can do with him.

[Lurch]

I love how teams like UT have these gigantic stadiums, their own TV deals, kajillions of dollars in their athletic budgets, get bantered about on ESPN, yet it can still also be "this poor kid just gave it his all gosh darnnit."

What does one have to do with the other?  Dodds says its all about the kids.

[JimR]

I love how teams like UT have these gigantic stadiums, their own TV deals, kajillions of dollars in their athletic budgets, get bantered about on ESPN, yet it can still also be "this poor kid just gave it his all gosh darnnit."

what the fuck does this mean? that is exactly what it comes down to--individuals kids doing their best to win games. it is no different than LL for the athlete.

you have no fucking clue what playing sports at the college level requires, and size of the stadium or the wealth or success of the school does not make a damn when the kid drops back to pass or when some other kid tries to get the third out.

your disdain and smug superiority about every fucking thing is a tired act.

[drew corleone]

Gilbert wasn't a bad person. He didn't get arrested, get the program in trouble with the NCAA, or dog it on and off the field. He was just a high-profile recruit that didn't get the job done. The guy wanted to be a Longhorn and he gave all he could. The fact that he wasn't a good quarterback shouldn't give people carte blanche to make ridiculous comments trashing the guy, IMO. This has to be pretty humiliating for the kid, and he's doing it with class, so why is it necessary for some internet morons to pile on? Most of us moved on after BYU.

[Rebel Jew]

what the fuck does this mean? that is exactly what it comes down to--individuals kids doing their best to win games. it is no different than LL for the athlete.

you have no fucking clue what playing sports at the college level requires, and size of the stadium or the wealth or success of the school does not make a damn when the kid drops back to pass or when some other kid tries to get the third out.

your disdain and smug superiority about every fucking thing is a tired act.

give me a break jim. you don't see a difference between big-time college sports now and 20 years ago? not saying gilbert or anybody else deserves to be booed or that he's not giving it his "best," but to act like these are just sweet little old kids playing for fun ignores the reality of their stature.

[JimR]

give me a break jim. you don't see a difference between big-time college sports now and 20 years ago? not saying gilbert or anybody else deserves to be booed or that he's not giving it his "best," but to act like these are just sweet little old kids playing for fun ignores the reality of their stature.

how do you fucking know what the "reality" is. this is just one more example of your arrogance and disdain for everything. these kids are playing for the same things i played for.

[Lurch]

give me a break jim. you don't see a difference between big-time college sports now and 20 years ago? not saying gilbert or anybody else deserves to be booed or that he's not giving it his "best," but to act like these are just sweet little old kids playing for fun ignores the reality of their stature.

It's the same kids as 20 years ago.  That the Athletic Department has grown up is no reason to look at the kid more harshly.  By the way, these kids are contributing members of a successful Athletic Department that is now giving the University $30MM for academics.

[Rebel Jew]

how do you fucking know what the "reality" is. this is just one more example of your arrogance and disdain for everything. these kids are playing for the same things i played for.

the reality is that gilbert plays in an era when his every move is closely followed literally since he's a sophomore(?) in high school. then he goes to college and that college expects him to bring it a national championship every year, and if not then come heroically close. his every move is now discussed by ESPN and bored people on the internet like you and me. he's front and center of an athletic program that brings in millions and millions of dollars. i have no idea of his make-up and i don't think it gives him license to be criticized, but you can't say that he's just a normal kid playing for pride and fun.

[VirtualBob]

what the fuck does this mean? that is exactly what it comes down to--individuals kids doing their best to win games. it is no different than LL for the athlete.

you have no fucking clue what playing sports at the college level requires, and size of the stadium or the wealth or success of the school does not make a damn when the kid drops back to pass or when some other kid tries to get the third out.

your disdain and smug superiority about every fucking thing is a tired act.

Wow.  In the absence of true clarks, this is about as good as it gets.  :-)  Thanks, Jim.

[Lurch]

the reality is that gilbert plays in an era when his every move is closely followed literally since he's a sophomore(?) in high school. then he goes to college and that college expects him to bring it a national championship every year, and if not then come heroically close. his every move is now discussed by ESPN and bored people on the internet like you and me. he's front and center of an athletic program that brings in millions and millions of dollars. i have no idea of his make-up, but you can't say that he's just a normal kid playing for pride and fun.

Can you even make sense out of what you just wrote?

A bunch of stuff the kid has no control over, therefore he cant be a normal kid playing for pride and fun?  Got it.

[Rebel Jew]

Can you even make sense out of what you just wrote?

A bunch of stuff the kid has no control over, therefore he cant be a normal kid playing for pride and fun?  Got it.

so he's just an aw-shucks kid who only chose to play for UT because it was the local university, then was shocked SHOCKED that the fans weren't satisfied merely with him giving it his all?

[Limey]

Can you even make sense out of what you just wrote?

A bunch of stuff the kid has no control over, therefore he cant be a normal kid playing for pride and fun?  Got it.

Often, hardened professional athletes cry as they announce that they're "hangin' 'em up."  I doubt it's because they are worried about how they're going to make ends meet.

[94CougarGrad]

If he ends up at SMU, it will fascinating to see what June Jones can do with him.

So you saw that on the news, too? Fox affiliate reported that he was at University Park watching practice this week.

I'd like to see him do well, but SMOO is a thorn in Houston's side in C-USA West, so I'd kinda like it not to be there... 

[Andyzipp]

so he's just an aw-shucks kid who only chose to play for UT because it was the local university, then was shocked SHOCKED that the fans weren't satisfied merely with him giving it his all?

The issue isn't the kid(s).  It's the fans and how much of their identity has become tied up with winning.

[Lurch]

so he's just an aw-shucks kid who only chose to play for UT because it was the local university, then was shocked SHOCKED that the fans weren't satisfied merely with him giving it his all?

What point are you trying to make?  What is an "aw-shucks kid" and who other than you labeled him that?  Who says he was or wasn't shocked that fans weren't satisfied with his performance?  What does any of that have to do with playing for pride and fun?  And what does any of that have to do with the size of UTs Athletic Department?

You're really tweaked by something, but for the life of me I can't tell what exactly.

[JackAstro]

so he's just an aw-shucks kid who only chose to play for UT because it was the local university, then was shocked SHOCKED that the fans weren't satisfied merely with him giving it his all?

He's a kid (or a grown-ass man, or whatever) who had high expectations and a big stage. He had a goal of eventually going pro, which has taken a massive and very public hit, in spite of his best efforts to succeed. And he has handled himself with nothing but class.

Why should it be okay to shit on him for that, regardless of how much money the university takes in? As far as you or I know, he hasn't been compensated with anything other than a scholarship and a platform to showcase himself. Clearly, he's a big boy and can handle the criticism just fine – he's demonstrated that already.

But just because he can take it doesn't mean there's any need to act like he was some kind of blight on the program that deserves our animosity. He's a Longhorn, and he did things the right way. I don't think we need to give him a participation trophy to soothe his battered ego, but there's no need to treat him like shit, either. And I really don't see what the financial state of the program has to do with that.

[JackAstro]

The issue isn't the kid(s).  It's the fans and how much of their identity has become tied up with winning.

In fairness, where else am I supposed to derive my sense of self-worth? From ME? Fuck that.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

The issue isn't the kid(s).  It's the fans and how much of their identity has become tied up with winning.

This hasn't proven to be a problem for Aggies.  The winning part, that is.

[Rebel Jew]

What point are you trying to make?  What is an "aw-shucks kid" and who other than you labeled him that?  Who says he was or wasn't shocked that fans weren't satisfied with his performance?  What does any of that have to do with playing for pride and fun?  And what does any of that have to do with the size of UTs Athletic Department?

You're really tweaked by something, but for the life of me I can't tell what exactly.

The QB of the Texans Longhorns football team in 2011 is a star position, a national celebrity. You are expected to lead the team to the national title every year or spit blood in the process of coming up short. Considering this, it strikes me as a bit funny that you guys are trying to act like he's just some kid givin' it his all-- like that's all he is. HE COULD BE A LEGEND! WE COULD BUILD A STATUE OF HIM! Oh, but he's just some kid playing for fun. How dare you talk about him in any other way?

[MusicMan]

The QB of the Texans Longhorns football team in 2011 is a star position, a national celebrity. You are on national TV, magazines, websites, and are one step away from a lucrative pro career. In exchange for this, you are expected to lead the team to the national title every year or spit blood in the process of coming up short. Considering all this, it strikes me as a bit funny that you guys are trying to act like he's just some kid givin' it his all-- like that's all he is. HE COULD BE A LEGEND! WE COULD BUILD A STATUE OF HIM! Oh, but he's just some kid playing for fun. How dare you talk about him in any other way?

It's called class.  Some of us have it.

[BUWebguy]

The QB of the Texans Longhorns football team in 2011 is a star position, a national celebrity. You are expected to lead the team to the national title every year or spit blood in the process of coming up short. Considering this, it strikes me as a bit funny that you guys are trying to act like he's just some kid givin' it his all-- like that's all he is. HE COULD BE A LEGEND! WE COULD BUILD A STATUE OF HIM! Oh, but he's just some kid playing for fun. How dare you talk about him in any other way?

Why are these two things mutually exclusive?

[Limey]

You're really tweaked by something, but for the life of me I can't tell what exactly.

Meth.

[Ebby Calvin]

The QB of the Texans Longhorns football team in 2011 is a star position, a national celebrity. You are expected to lead the team to the national title every year or spit blood in the process of coming up short. Considering this, it strikes me as a bit funny that you guys are trying to act like he's just some kid givin' it his all-- like that's all he is. HE COULD BE A LEGEND! WE COULD BUILD A STATUE OF HIM! Oh, but he's just some kid playing for fun. How dare you talk about him in any other way?

Thing is, he won't be a legend, and they won't build a statue of him.  He didn't succeed, and everybody in the state of Texas knows that.  Which leaves us with this: he's just some kid who gave it his all.  Why is there something wrong with that?

[Limey]

In fairness, where else am I supposed to derive my sense of self-worth? From ME? Fuck that.

Charlie Sheen.

[MRaup]

The QB of the Texans Longhorns football team in 2011 is a star position, a national celebrity. You are expected to lead the team to the national title every year or spit blood in the process of coming up short. Considering this, it strikes me as a bit funny that you guys are trying to act like he's just some kid givin' it his all-- like that's all he is. HE COULD BE A LEGEND! WE COULD BUILD A STATUE OF HIM! Oh, but he's just some kid playing for fun. How dare you talk about him in any other way?

Joey,

You're setting a pretty impressively high bar for the next thread trolling that happens.

[MusicMan]

Joey,

You're setting a pretty impressively high bar for the next thread trolling that happens.

"The role of Hetero Doxy will be performed tonight by Rebel Jew."

[JimR]

The QB of the Texans Longhorns football team in 2011 is a star position, a national celebrity. You are expected to lead the team to the national title every year or spit blood in the process of coming up short. Considering this, it strikes me as a bit funny that you guys are trying to act like he's just some kid givin' it his all-- like that's all he is. HE COULD BE A LEGEND! WE COULD BUILD A STATUE OF HIM! Oh, but he's just some kid playing for fun. How dare you talk about him in any other way?

nice try to attempt to rephrase the point. of course, athletes at ALL levels play for fun. they play fucking kids' games, for pete's sake. more than that, though, college kids play to win games for their teams and for their schools. i know someone like you who is above it all and superior to everyone cannot understand, but college athletes love their schools and want to win for it and for their teammates. beyond thay, they try to play as well as they can in hope that their long-held dream, however unrealistic, of playing professional sports will come true.

like Gilbert, i grew up in Austin and dreamed of playing for UT and maybe, just maybe, of being good enough to play pro ball. it did not completely come true for me, and Gilbert, who was far, far more talented in his sport than i was in mine, has seen his dream crash and burn prematurely in his home town. he has handled it with class and dignity, and internet pricks who denigrate his effort or who question his hurt at failure or who want to act like he never mattered and should be trashed publicly can go fuck themselves as far as i am concerned.

[Noe]

I dunno, I kinda see RJ's point.  Big time college sports isn't the same as "give it all for ol' State U" of long ago.  I think all of us agree that it's as much a business as anything else, perhaps not as jaded as all that, but still not the "good kid" type of environment.  It's about winning.  For coaches, for fans, for allumni, for everyone.... and that means a kid needs to grow up fast and deliver.  I don't think Alkie should apologize for being a fan of today's collegiate sports world.  In fact, it's kind of refreshing how honest Alkie is.

Not many fans were "nice" to GG during the BYU game and certainly Mack Brown's offense wasn't going to change over to the west coast offense just because he had a kid with the skills to run said system (or supposedly could).  Wrong system, wrong kid.  When they had Vince Young, he didn't fit either.  But before he could leave too, Mack had an epiphany.... how about I change my offense scheme instead to *match* this kid's skills?  Hmmmmm...

Worked the opposite for Garrett Gilbert, nice kid and all... but it's a business, so there is that.  By the way, I remember how I got blasted for saying VY was not a "nice guy" by just about everyone.  I was supposedly wrong about all I heard about him from sources.  Time has a way to tell everything to everyone, so in the case of VY, he was an a-hole then, he's still an a-hole today.  He was just UT's a-hole at the time and he gave the UT fans what they wanted, so he is a legend and a "good guy".  That's okay by me, no matter how it is counter to reality.

[JimR]

uh, UT does not run the "West Coast offense," but hey, you're on a roll. so, "good riddance" was refreshing to you?

Admins troll too, apparently. if you intended to piss me off with your post, you were wildly successful.

[BizidyDizidy]

uh, UT does not run the "West Coast offense," but hey, you're on a roll.

That's what he was saying.

[Noe]

uh, UT does not run the "West Coast offense," but hey, you're on a roll. so, "good riddance" was refreshing to you?

Admins troll too, apparently. if you intended to piss me off with your post, you were wildly successful.

So you're pissed off... what else is new.  And no, I'm not trolling.

[MRaup]

So you're pissed off... what else is new.  And no, I'm not trolling.

That thread was 100 percent being a dick, Noe. You're entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is, but that was a douche to the core.

[JimR]

That's what he was saying.

well, fuck, that's even more wrong. Lake Travis does not run it either.

[Noe]

That's what he was saying.

Mack Brown would get fired today if he did everything he could to help Gilbert find himself in a good system.  It's a business and he needs to give him a chance to learn a system or sit down.  Gilbert did not do it and now he's going to go somewhere else that probably will fit his style of play better.  What's wrong with that?  That is common to everything in modern day college sports, much as we hate to think that the stories last year from college football never happened.

Am I living in a weird world where I forgot to get my college rose colored glasses to see what everyone else sees?

[Noe]

That thread was 100 percent being a dick, Noe. You're entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is, but that was a douche to the core.

Why?

[BizidyDizidy]

Mack Brown would get fired today if he did everything he could to help Gilbert find himself in a good system.  It's a business and he needs to give him a chance to learn a system or sit down.  Gilbert did not do it and now he's going to go somewhere else that probably will fit his style of play better.  What's wrong with that?  That is common to everything in modern day college sports, much as we hate to think that the stories last year from college football never happened.

Am I living in a weird world where I forgot to get my college rose colored glasses to see what everyone else sees?

That's not the same as saying "good riddance" is "refreshing".

[JimR]

Mack Brown would get fired today if he did everything he could to help Gilbert find himself in a good system.  It's a business and he needs to give him a chance to learn a system or sit down.  Gilbert did not do it and now he's going to go somewhere else that probably will fit his style of play better.  What's wrong with that?  That is common to everything in modern day college sports, much as we hate to think that the stories last year from college football never happened.

Am I living in a weird world where I forgot to get my college rose colored glasses to see what everyone else sees?

you actually have to watch games to comment on offenses. what offense did Gilbert excell in at LT?

[Noe]

well, fuck, that's even more wrong. Lake Travis does not run it either.

West Coast offense not correct?  Okay, an offense that suit the kid's skills.  Is that better?  If so, that is the point.  What the heck are you so annoyed about?

[Noe]

That's not the same as saying "good riddance" is "refreshing".

Actually, that's true.  But Alkie is the face of the fan I see more often than not.... everywhere in college sports.  And I know college coaches too who don't mind sharing that with me.  Sorry I'm breaking some sort of illusion that college sports is a business like anything else and a fan who talks about it like they would a professional, step-on-your-dick type of conversation is pretty much normal nowadays.

Classy? No.  Honest? Yes.

[BizidyDizidy]

Actually, that's true.  But Alkie is the face of the fan I see more often than not.... everywhere in college sports.  And I know college coaches too who don't mind sharing that with me.  Sorry I'm breaking some sort of illusion that college sports is a business like anything else and a fan who talks about it like they would a professional, step-on-your-dick type of conversation is pretty more normal nowadays.

Classy? No.  Honest? Yes.

Booing a college student, trying his hardest, on your team, is just indefensible. And saying "everyone does it" is certainly not a defense.

[Noe]

you actually have to watch games to comment on offenses. what offense did Gilbert excell in at LT?

Oh, okay.  Then I don't have an opinion any more because I don't understand college offenses.  Thanks, but since you are not getting the gist of my point, it's not worth going on and on about the "business" of college sports.

[JimR]

Oh, okay.  Then I don't have an opinion any more because I don't understand college offenses.  Thanks, but since you are not getting the gist of my point, it's not worth going on and on about the "business" of college sports.

LT is Lake Travis, a high school. Gilbert excelled in that offense. what was it? was UT's different when he got here?

[Mr. Happy]

nice try to attempt to rephrase the point. of course, athletes at ALL levels play for fun. they play fucking kids' games, for pete's sake. more than that, though, college kids play to win games for their teams and for their schools. i know someone like you who is above it all and superior to everyone cannot understand, but college athletes love their schools and want to win for it and for their teammates. beyond thay, they try to play as well as they can in hope that their long-held dream, however unrealistic, of playing professional sports will come true.

like Gilbert, i grew up in Austin and dreamed of playing for UT and maybe, just maybe, of being good enough to play pro ball. it did not completely come true for me, and Gilbert, who was far, far more talented in his sport than i was in mine, has seen his dream crash and burn prematurely in his home town. he has handled it with class and dignity, and internet pricks who denigrate his effort or who question his hurt at failure or who want to act like he never mattered and should be trashed publicly can go fuck themselves as far as i am concerned.

This. This right here. I represented some pro ballplayers who also still play for the fun of the game. Once it's in you, it never leaves. The talent fades away, but the love of the sport and your teammates never does. Joey, you're all wrong here. Stop while you're way behind.

[MRaup]

Booing a college student, trying his hardest, on your team, is just indefensible. And saying "everyone does it" is certainly not a defense.

I never thought the day Bizidy would write something that I was thinking almost word for word would happen (albeit with less swearing), but there it is.

Classless, shitty, pathetic behavior. I expect shit like this from the drunk cocksuckers that sit behind us at UT games. 40+ years old and still flasking the games and yelling "Cheaters!" at the top of their lungs every time a penalty is called on the other team. Those guys are sub-human at best, and anyone that shares their point of view is nothing short of trash.

[Noe]

Booing a college student, trying his hardest, on your team, is just indefensible. And saying "everyone does it" is certainly not a defense.

So let's explore this further.  What has cause the environment for fans to behave this way on kids who are just playing college sports?  The kids themselves?  The football coaches?  The big business (television, sponsorships, et. al.)?  Or a combination of it all.  Hell, nowadays you have "kids" who decide to hold press conferences to announce what college they are going to play for.  Kids?  Yes, kids... who somehow grown up faster in today's wildly exposed and internet savy world.  I wish it were not true, but it is and with said exposure comes the negative side of criticism and shame too.  I'm not criticizing UT at all.... they are just one part of a much larger environment for college sports today.  It's a business and Alkie saying what he did comes with the territory. That is why I am neither shocked, nor offended or even remotely taken aback.  I think it's pretty much common nowadays to see that happening to many things that before used to be more innocent for kids in society.

[Noe]

LT is Lake Travis, a high school. Gilbert excelled in that offense. what was it? was UT's different when he got here?

Is Lake Travis a business like UT?  (I'll answer your questions with questions to see if we can talk about what I am talking about because I could care less about offensive schemes at this point)

[MusicMan]

So let's explore this further.  What has cause the environment for fans to behave this way on kids who are just playing college sports?  The kids themselves?  The football coaches?  The big business (television, sponsorships, et. al.)?  Or a combination of it all.  Hell, nowadays you have "kids" who decide to hold press conferences to announce what college they are going to play for.  Kids?  Yes, kids... who somehow grown up faster in today's wildly exposed and internet savy world.  I wish it were not true, but it is and with said exposure comes the negative side of criticism and shame too.  I'm not criticizing UT at all.... they are just one part of a much larger environment for college sports today.  It's a business and Alkie saying what he did comes with the territory. That is why I am neither shocked, nor offended or even remotely taken aback.  I think it's pretty much common nowadays to see that happening to many things that before used to be more innocent for kids in society.

You are correlating the frequency of the event with the need to approve it, and that's just not like you.

[Noe]

That's not the same as saying "good riddance" is "refreshing".

BTW - did I say "good riddance is refreshing" or "Alkie being honest is refreshing"?  And how would the two be different?

[Noe]

I never thought the day Bizidy would write something that I was thinking almost word for word would happen (albeit with less swearing), but there it is.

Classless, shitty, pathetic behavior. I expect shit like this from the drunk cocksuckers that sit behind us at UT games. 40+ years old and still flasking the games and yelling "Cheaters!" at the top of their lungs every time a penalty is called on the other team. Those guys are sub-human at best, and anyone that shares their point of view is nothing short of trash.

Why is the "Wild Bunch" still allowed to even come to UT games?  Aren't they even praised for their outlandish behavior by many?

[JimR]

Is Lake Travis a business like UT?  (I'll answer your questions with questions to see if we can talk about what I am talking about because I could care less about offensive schemes at this point)

who brought offense schemes up?

"Not many fans were "nice" to GG during the BYU game and certainly Mack Brown's offense wasn't going to change over to the west coast offense just because he had a kid with the skills to run said system (or supposedly could).  Wrong system, wrong kid.  When they had Vince Young, he didn't fit either.  But before he could leave too, Mack had an epiphany.... how about I change my offense scheme instead to *match* this kid's skills?  Hmmmmm..."

[MRaup]

Why is the "Wild Bunch" still allowed to even come to UT games?  Aren't they even praised for their outlandish behavior by many?

Yelling stupid shit at the opposing team at a baseball game is not the same as booing your own players.

Noe, stop being a contrary just to be a dick please. It doesn't suit you, and quite frankly, is kind of embarrassing.

[Noe]

You are correlating the frequency of the event with the need to approve it, and that's just not like you.

Explain this to me so I can see that I am taking one isolated college incident that involves your alma mater and making it just another picture of today's college sports world.

[JimR]

Why is the "Wild Bunch" still allowed to even come to UT games?  Aren't they even praised for their outlandish behavior by many?

you are decades behind, which is not surprising. UT told the "Wild Bunch" to shut the fuck up years ago if they wanted to keep their tickets. the abuse stopped, and the remnants who still come follow the bench jockeying rules.

[MusicMan]

I don't think Alkie should apologize for being a fan of today's collegiate sports world.  In fact, it's kind of refreshing how honest Alkie is.

It's a business and Alkie saying what he did comes with the territory. That is why I am neither shocked, nor offended or even remotely taken aback.  I think it's pretty much common nowadays to see that happening to many things that before used to be more innocent for kids in society.

Explain to me how this isn't saying that because comments like Alkie's have become common, then the comment itself is "refreshing" and "honest".

[Noe]

Yelling stupid shit at the opposing team at a baseball game is not the same as booing your own players.

Noe, stop being a contrary just to be a dick please. It doesn't suit you, and quite frankly, is kind of embarrassing.

Wait, that first sentence is very ironic given the tenor of this conversation.  You can say anything to *opposing* players, just not your own.  So if it's the other side and you want to make Alkie-like pronouncements, it's okay?  Hmmmmm.... like I said, I'm okay by it, just not shocked when fans will turn on their own as well because the environment allows it.  It's a business and winning is everything and that leads to the pronouncements you get from an Alkie.

That he's honest doesn't bother me but it sure bothers a lot of other people.  I don't think Garret Gilbert deserves it if that is what you think I am saying.  No one does.  But if you're going to play in this arena, they should probably tell you what comes with it all... including the drunk stupid comments in college sports.

[Noe]

Explain to me how this isn't saying that because comments like Alkie's have become common, then the comment itself is "refreshing" and "honest".

Damn, I said "Alkie being honest is refreshing".  Why is that wrong?

[MusicMan]

I don't think Garret Gilbert deserves it if that is what you think I am saying. 

You appear to have gone to great pains to say exactly that.

[Noe]

You appear to have gone to great pains to say exactly that.

No, you guys get very annoyed when you *think* someone says something about a UT sport, players, or even ex-player.  Or at least that is how it reads to me right now... same as it did when I said VY was an a-hole, well before it became documented fact that he was indeed.

[BizidyDizidy]

No, you guys get very annoyed when you *think* someone says something about a UT sport, players, or even ex-player.  Or at least that is how it reads to me right now... same as it did when I said VY was an a-hole, well before it became documented fact that he was indeed.

I sure as shit don't care about that.

[Limey]

I sure as shit don't care about that.

My girlfriend's a vegetarian UT fan, which pretty much makes me a vegetarian UT fan.

[BizidyDizidy]

My girlfriend's a vegetarian UT fan, which pretty much makes me a vegetarian UT fan.

I'm rooting for UT this weekend, because I think it helps Stanford's outside chance at the NC. My parents and brother (all UT grads) will be at the game rooting for Texas, but that's less of a consideration.

[MusicMan]

No, you guys get very annoyed when you *think* someone says something about a UT sport, players, or even ex-player.

You felt strongly enough that Alkie was in the right to insert yourself in the middle of it.

Or at least that is how it reads to me right now... same as it did when I said VY was an a-hole, well before it became documented fact that he was indeed.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

[Noe]

I sure as shit don't care about that.

Me either actually.  I just think when you talk about college sports nowadays, there is a somewhat two-sided approach to conversations about players, games, schemes, coaches, what have you.  It depends on the mood of the fan of course, but it can be very caustic and at the same time very gentile because it's just kids.  College sports brings out that sort of two-sided approach to conversations and one must learn to have those types of conversations too.  Kind of like in the deep south when they want to insult you, they end with "Bless his/her heart" to soften the insult.  it's still an insult but it's done the right way.  So Alkie's comment should have had the equivalent "Bless his heart", he's just a kid type of feel to it and said the same thing "I'm glad he's gone so we can win some games with much more ease now!".  Last year's season at UT was in no way Gilbert's fault but a lot of fans sure acted like it was.

[BizidyDizidy]

You felt strongly enough that Alkie was in the right to insert yourself in the middle of it.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Yes, let's stick to documented facts, like that he scored below illiterate on the Wonderlic.

[Noe]

I'm rooting for UT this weekend, because I think it helps Stanford's outside chance at the NC. My parents and brother (all UT grads) will be at the game rooting for Texas, but that's less of a consideration.

I'm rooting for kids to be kids again someday in everything in today's society.  I think I'm wildly out of mind for doing so too!

[JimR]

No, you guys get very annoyed when you *think* someone says something about a UT sport, players, or even ex-player.  Or at least that is how it reads to me right now... same as it did when I said VY was an a-hole, well before it became documented fact that he was indeed.

maybe he is now, i don't know, but he was not at UT.

this has nothing to do with UT for me. what Mark last said is true for the fans of any school anywhere.

[Noe]

You felt strongly enough that Alkie was in the right to insert yourself in the middle of it.

You sure like changing my stance, don't you?  Okay, think what you will even though I am pretty sure I've explained myself enough to not be misunderstood or have someone say what you are saying.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

I'm sorry, but I thought having a video of him beating the crap out of someone in a strip club in Dallas was documentation.  Maybe I am wrong.

[JimR]

Me either actually.  I just think when you talk about college sports nowadays, there is a somewhat two-sided approach to conversations about players, games, schemes, coaches, what have you.  It depends on the mood of the fan of course, but it can be very caustic and at the same time very gentile because it's just kids.  College sports brings out that sort of two-sided approach to conversations and one must learn to have those types of conversations too.  Kind of like in the deep south when they want to insult you, they end with "Bless his/her heart" to soften the insult.  it's still an insult but it's done the right way.  So Alkie's comment should have had the equivalent "Bless his heart", he's just a kid type of feel to it and said the same thing "I'm glad he's gone so we can win some games with much more ease now!".  Last year's season at UT was in no way Gilbert's fault but a lot of fans sure acted like it was.

there is no way to sugar coat "good riddance," and your saying it was "refreshing" put you right there with him.

[Noe]

maybe he is now, i don't know, but he was not at UT.

The sources I have from his days at UT pretty much said he was what he still is today.  Self-centered, arrogant and ready to leave UT because things weren't working out until Brown decided they'd give it shot at VY's style of play.  Great talent, right attitude to deal with everything too.  Very cocky and an a-hole.  Served him well too.  Last year everyone was indignant (everyone is probably an overstatement too, sorry) about Cam at Auburn, but he had the right mix of talent and attitude for college sports today.  Being a great kid is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

[MRaup]

You sure like changing my stance, don't you?  Okay, think what you will even though I am pretty sure I've explained myself enough to not be misunderstood or have someone say what you are saying.

I'm sorry, but I thought having a video of him beating the crap out of someone in a strip club in Dallas was documentation.  Maybe I am wrong.

Everyone else is wrong! I'm the lone bastion of sanity here!

And he shouldn't have gone after that guy in the strip club, but the guy he punched wasn't exactly trying to read him bible verses either. Don't be an antagonist douche unless you want to reap the consequences.

[Noe]

there is no way to sugar coat "good riddance," and your saying it was "refreshing" put you right there with him.

I'll type it slower so you guys can comprehend.  "Alkie was refreshingly honest".

[Noe]

Everyone else is wrong! I'm the lone bastion of sanity here!

When I say that out loud, call me on it.  I give you permission.

And he shouldn't have gone after that guy in the strip club,

Agreed.

but the guy he punched wasn't exactly trying to read him bible verses either.

So it's okay then?  You're fine with it?  I'm asking because I don't want to misunderstand your point.

Don't be an antagonist douche unless you want to reap the consequences.

I know, mentioning Vince Young is a big mistake on my part because he is, after all, a legend to UT fans and that is still a big no-no to some.  I retract everything I said about VY, he is a GOD!

[Noe]

BTW - if this is what passes at great skills at punching out Clarkies, then I don't think it is as good as you guys think.  I'm glad I'm providing practice for you because you guys are very rusty and quite frankly unimpressive.

[BatGirl]

"Alkie was refreshingly honest".

wait
when was he dishonest?

[MRaup]

When I say that out loud, call me on it.  I give you permission.

Agreed.

So it's okay then?  You're fine with it?  I'm asking because I don't want to misunderstand your point.

I know, mentioning Vince Young is a big mistake on my part because he is, after all, a legend to UT fans and that is still a big no-no to some.  I retract everything I said about VY, he is a GOD!

That's what I'm seeing right now. You keep on saying "That's not what I said!" then saying the same thing again and again.


I don't think it's okay, and never have. But using him going after some guy that was antagonizing him in a strip club to prove he's a horrible human being when the guy was tormenting him looking to get his goat is a pretty unfair way to judge him. I met Vince Young multiple times around campus when he was at UT, and he was unfailingly nice and friendly to everyone, and always had time to sign autographs, chat, and be friendly with anyone that made an effort.

If someone wants to push my buttons until I snap, sure I shouldn't have snapped at them, but that doesn't just absolve the guy that was antagonizing me trying to get a reaction out of me of any blame. There are two sides to every story, even the ones that us "UT fans" tell.

[MRaup]

BTW - if this is what passes at great skills at punching out Clarkies, then I don't think it is as good as you guys think.  I'm glad I'm providing practice for you because you guys are very rusty and quite frankly unimpressive.

You've only made it through the second stage so far.

[Ty in Tampa]

BTW - if this is what passes at great skills at punching out Clarkies, then I don't think it is as good as you guys think.  I'm glad I'm providing practice for you because you guys are very rusty and quite frankly unimpressive.

Ahhh...so you are being a dick on purpose?

[Noe]

wait
when was he dishonest?

I dunno?  Come to think of it, it is kinda what you're going to get from Alkie 100% of the time.  Good point.

[Noe]

Ahhh...so you are being a dick on purpose?

What is dick-ish about what I am saying about college sports today?  That it's a business, and coaches and fans react in accordance to that is being a dick?  Ahum... okay.

[Noe]

You've only made it through the second stage so far.

So how am I doing?  You want some low and away instead of down the middle for your batting practice, sir?

[Duke]

Last year's season at UT was in no way Gilbert's fault but a lot of fans sure acted like it was.

He was a member of a team.  It wasn't only his fault but it's as much his as anybody's.

[Noe]

That's what I'm seeing right now. You keep on saying "That's not what I said!" then saying the same thing again and again.

So quote me right and I won't repeat myself.  It's that simple.

I don't think it's okay, and never have.

Agreed.

But

A friend once told me "When a person says something and then uses "but" in the middle of his sentence, they are basically telling you this... "What I said before this is not really how I feel nor believe".  I'm not sure I believe him, but he is a very good counselor who has helped understand human behavior and adult attitudes.  Just saying....

using him going after some guy that was antagonizing him in a strip club to prove he's a horrible human being when the guy was tormenting him looking to get his goat is a pretty unfair way to judge him.

So here Mark, I'm going to repeat myself... sorry.  I have been aware of VY's self-indulgent ways since his senior year in High School by some well established sources who were seriously telling me he's an a-hole with a tremendous amount of talent.  This incident isn't as isolated as you may think.

I met Vince Young multiple times around campus when he was at UT, and he was unfailingly nice and friendly to everyone, and always had time to sign autographs, chat, and be friendly with anyone that made an effort.

Cool.  That is typically what I get in response to my understanding of VY when I talk to my friends who are UT alumni (office mate with one who is my best friend at work).  I don't want to burst the bubble any more, so again, I retract what I said based on what I know.

If someone wants to push my buttons until I snap, sure I shouldn't have snapped at them, but that doesn't just absolve the guy that was antagonizing me trying to get a reaction out of me of any blame. There are two sides to every story, even the ones that us "UT fans" tell.

It's cool.  The misunderstood, brooding talented quarterback that gets provoked may be true and all.  It works too.  Funny how in his pro career he kept getting into the same misunderstood position too.

[Noe]

He was a member of a team.  It wasn't only his fault but it's as much his as anybody's.

Expound on this for me Duke.  Thanks. 

[Duke]

Expound on this for me Duke.  Thanks. 

Just pointing it out ....

[JimR]

Expound on this for me Duke.  Thanks. 

why should anyone have to explain anything to you? Noe knows it all.

[Noe]

Just pointing it out ....

Oh, I agree with you, just thought you had more.  thanks!

[Noe]

why should anyone have to explain anything to you? Noe knows it all.

Of course because I say that to introduce every single one of my replies and/or post!  Pot, how does it feel to call a kettle black?

[Ebby Calvin]

I think it's much simpler than all of this (of course, I've never met Gilbert so I could be way off base).

He seems like a good kid.  He landed his dream position, failed, was publicly chastised by a significant portion of his fanbase, and decided to move on.  Throw all of the money and expectations out the window.  I feel bad for him, and I'm happy he's trying to revitalize his college career elsewhere.  He certainly doesn't need my pity, but I find it difficult to not put myself in his shoes and say, "Fuck, that sucks."

[Noe]

I think it's much simpler than all of this (of course, I've never met Gilbert so I could be way off base).

Me either and no one I know knows him either.  I think he's a great kid simply because of what I saw *after* the BYU game (clipboard and all). 

He seems like a good kid.  He landed his dream position, failed, was publicly chastised by a significant portion of his fanbase, and decided to move on.

Yup.

Throw all of the money and expectations out the window.

I wish I could.  Seriously.

 I feel bad for the kid, and I'm happy he's trying to revitalize his college career elsewhere.  He certainly doesn't need my pity, but I find it difficult to not put myself in his shoes and say, "Fuck, that sucks."

"All things work for the good..."  Time has a way to vindicate those who are good kids.  Seen it over and over again with the kids I've had to deal with in life.

[Ebby Calvin]

"All things work for the good..." 

Of course they do.  So why kick the kid when he's already down?  Even if this is one of those "life experiences" (and it is, imo), why is it so hard to sympathize?

And for the record - any kid who goes through this has my sympathy.  Unless they're a Sooner - they made a choice to have a shitty life.

[Bench]

 Pot, how does it feel to call a kettle black?

So the pot is allowed to have feelings but Gilbert can't?

[MRaup]

It's cool.  The misunderstood, brooding talented quarterback that gets provoked may be true and all.  It works too.  Funny how in his pro career he kept getting into the same misunderstood position too.

You bitch about everyone turning your words on you then type that. Really, Noe? Really? I know you're trolling to troll right now, that that was about as ridiculous as it gets.

I never once said that he wasn't at fault. He shouldn't have gone after the guy. He should've been the bigger man. But hey, not everyone is as all knowing and powerful as Saint Noe I guess.

Give me a break.

I know 3 people that went to high school with Vince, two of which has nothing to do with the football program at all, and one of which was a bench riding sophomore Vince's senior year. All three of them have nothing but good things to say about Vince.

I have a good friend that was a trainer with UT from 04-08, he never said a single bad thing about Vince.

If you want to play Who I Know And What They Think About Vince Young, we can do that, but you want Vince to be a bad guy, so he's a bad guy to you. Your mind won't be changed.

[Noe]

Of course they do.  So why kick the kid when he's already down?

Because very much like pro football when you are allowed as a fan to be a.... well... dick... and be praised for said attitude ("You bought a ticket, you can scream all you want!"), college sports has had some of that seep into it's world too.  That comes with the money that is being made nowadays and that means a slight change in attitudes by coaches, players and fans too.  Much as we may hate to think it exist in college sports, I am of the opinion that the rants and raves of fans who decide to deride the "kids" is much too par for the course.  The fault of the fan?  Maybe.  But my point is this: I am neither shocked nor appalled by fan reactions in college sports nowadays, kids or not.... because the times we live in make it a blurred line of television exposure, kids holding press conferences (and exposing themselves to fan chatter on forums that lead to name calling and such), and coaches making decisions that are very business like.

Even if this is one of those "life experiences" (and it is, imo), why is it so hard to sympathize?

When it's all about *winning*, things get hard.

And for the record - any kid who goes through this has my sympathy.  Unless they're a Sooner - they made a choice to have a shitty life.

I have no dog in that hunt.

[Noe]

So the pot is allowed to have feelings but Gilbert can't?

No, Noe can't.

[BatGirl]

So the pot is allowed to have feelings but Gilbert can't?

racist feelings?

[Noe]

You bitch about everyone turning your words on you then type that. Really, Noe? Really? I know you're trolling to troll right now, that that was about as ridiculous as it gets.

I asked you a direct question so I would NOT misunderstand you.  I was being as fair as I could be.  Sorry.

I never once said that he wasn't at fault. He shouldn't have gone after the guy. He should've been the bigger man. But hey, not everyone is as all knowing and powerful as Saint Noe I guess.

No, they should be like Saint Vince?  Really Mark, what are you upset about here? That I have a different view of Vince Young?  Now that is really pathetic.

Give me a break.

Okay, but you're doing fine without one.

I know 3 people that went to high school with Vince, two of which has nothing to do with the football program at all, and one of which was a bench riding sophomore Vince's senior year. All three of them have nothing but good things to say about Vince.

So people who knew him as a Senior that I also know are liars?  What exactly (so I won't misunderstand your point) are you telling me here?

I have a good friend that was a trainer with UT from 04-08, he never said a single bad thing about Vince.

Okay, trainer trumps everyone I know.  Peanut salesman at DKR Memorial is about as good as I can do.  You win the internet!

If you want to play Who I Know And What They Think About Vince Young, we can do that, but you want Vince to be a bad guy, so he's a bad guy to you. Your mind won't be changed.

I don't want VY anything.  He's his own man and he owes me or anybody else nothing.  He's wiping his brow with c-notes so he could care less about what I think and I think you should too.  The thing that perplexes me is why you are getting so annoyed at what I say.  

[Bench]

racist feelings?

I prefer my pot to be post-racial.  And in peanut butter cups. 

[Ebby Calvin]

But my point is this: I am neither shocked nor appalled by fan reactions in college sports nowadays, kids or not.... because the times we live in make it a blurred line of television exposure, kids holding press conferences (and exposing themselves to fan chatter on forums that lead to name calling and such), and coaches making decisions that are very business like.

I'll cut right to your point, then.  I'm not shocked either.  Doesn't mean I have to like it.  If a college athlete holds a press conference, "takes his talents" to a school, shows up in a limo at his first practice, etc, and continues to act without class, then he might deserve a classless response at his expense.  I won't be the one booing him, though.  I don't think this applies to Garret Gilbert.  Which is where we started.

[Mr. Happy]

Now, this thread reminds me of some of the epic battles that we used to have around here.

[Ebby Calvin]

Now, this thread reminds me of some of the epic battles that we used to have around here.

LSU sucks!

[Noe]

I'll cut right to your point, then.  I'm not shocked either.  Doesn't mean I have to like it.

EGGSZACTLY!  You sir, should have won the internet, not Mark!

If a college athlete holds a press conference, "takes his talents" to a school, shows up in a limo at his first practice, etc, and continues to act without class, then he might deserve a classless response at his expense.  I won't be the one booing him, though.  I don't think this applies to Garret Gilbert.  Which is where we started.

Yup, does not apply to a great many kids in college sports, but since this is now a business and coaches, fans, many others react to it as such... why are we shocked by fans who react that way and then try to paint the picture that it is not what it is environmentally in college sports.  Last season Cam at Auburn was daily in the news being lambassed by media and fans alike.  A kid?  Yes.  Innocent and all?  I dunno.  Part of the landscape of college sports?  *DING, DING, DING*

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Now, this thread reminds me of some of the epic battles that we used to have around here.

I haven't seen anything worthy of "epic" in this thread.

[Noe]

Now, this thread reminds me of some of the epic battles that we used to have around here.

I don't remember being called a Saint before, but that was pretty sweet!!!

[Noe]

I haven't seen anything worthy of "epic" in this thread.

You sir do not appreciate batting practice.  Go sit in the dugout until the real game starts!

[OregonStrosFan]

I dunno, its easy to see why people hate college players - case in point, improper benefits.  Which one of you don't despise Geraldo Boldewijn for being allowed free use of, and insurance for, this car...  4 game suspension?!?  I call BS. Should've been a lifetime ban from college athletics...

[JimR]

I asked you a direct question so I would NOT misunderstand you.  I was being as fair as I could be.  Sorry.

No, they should be like Saint Vince?  Really Mark, what are you upset about here? That I have a different view of Vince Young?  Now that is really pathetic.

Okay, but you're doing fine without one.

So people who knew him as a Senior that I also know are liars?  What exactly (so I won't misunderstand your point) are you telling me here?

Okay, trainer trumps everyone I know.  Peanut salesman at DKR Memorial is about as good as I can do.  You win the internet!

I don't want VY anything.  He's his own man and he owes me or anybody else nothing.  He's wiping his brow with c-notes so he could care less about what I think and I think you should too.  The thing that perplexes me is why you are getting so annoyed at what I say.  

the Michael Nash style of TZ posting. well done.

Vince was not here as a senior. he was in the NFL.

[Noe]

the Michael Nash style of TZ posting. well done.

I dunno if I should thank you or not, so I'll leave it at ... huh?

Vince was not here as a senior. he was in the NFL.

Mark and I were talking about his high school daze.

[BizidyDizidy]

I dunno, its easy to see why people hate college players - case in point, improper benefits.  Which one of you don't despise Geraldo Boldewijn for being allowed free use of, and insurance for, this car...  4 game suspension?!?  I call BS. Should've been a lifetime ban from college athletics...

Sweet ride. Shoulda put some dubs on it though.

[Noe]

I dunno, its easy to see why people hate college players - case in point, improper benefits.  Which one of you don't despise Geraldo Boldewijn for being allowed free use of, and insurance for, this car...  4 game suspension?!?  I call BS. Should've been a lifetime ban from college athletics...

At the U of Miami he wouldn't have been suspended... only ridiculed right off the team.

[Alkie]

Shit guys, I've been busy with work since I started this thread.

Did I miss anything?

You guys are so fucking cute.   Really.   

[Alkie]

Also, I'm really afraid someone might misunderstand me as "classy" or something, so let's get this out there.

I want Texas Football to win football games.  I can honestly, without hesitation, look any of you self-righteous bushnecks in the eye and tell you...I couldn't possibly care less about these "kids."    I ain't their fucking daddy. 

I don't care how they do in the watered down version of UT that I had to go through.   I don't care what jobs they get.  I don't care if they go pro.   I don't care if they learn something.   I want them to win football games for the University of Texas.   That's it.   If you want to pretend you watch college sports to watch young men blahblahblah something, keep kidding yourselves.   

It's ok, you'll get over it.   Or not.   You'll just get really angry at an anonymous bulletin board for some reason to validate your own beliefs.

Oh noes!   Did the bad QB have to go get an education at a school other than Big State U when the world found out he can't hack it at the next level?   My heart fills with blood.

And to the "it's the coaching" theorists -- the staff that coached GG through last season is the  same staff that managed to coach Colt McCoy and Vince Young to title games and NFL careers.    So give it a rest.

Like I said, you guys are so fucking cute.   

[EasTexAstro]

Also, I'm really afraid someone might misunderstand me as "classy" or something, so let's get this out there.

I want Texas Football to win football games.  I can honestly, without hesitation, look any of you self-righteous bushnecks in the eye and tell you...I couldn't possibly care less about these "kids."    I ain't their fucking daddy. 

I don't care how they do in the watered down version of UT that I had to go through.   I don't care what jobs they get.  I don't care if they go pro.   I don't care if they learn something.   I want them to win football games for the University of Texas.   That's it.   If you want to pretend you watch college sports to watch young men blahblahblah something, keep kidding yourselves.   

It's ok, you'll get over it.   Or not.   You'll just get really angry at an anonymous bulletin board for some reason to validate your own beliefs.

Oh noes!   Did the bad QB have to go get an education at a school other than Big State U when the world found out he can't hack it at the next level?   My heart fills with blood.

And to the "it's the coaching" theorists -- the staff that coached GG through last season is the  same staff that managed to coach Colt McCoy and Vince Young to title games and NFL careers.    So give it a rest.

Like I said, you guys are so fucking cute.   

Didin't teach you to be much of a QB, did they?

[Mr. Happy]

Also, I'm really afraid someone might misunderstand me as "classy" or something, so let's get this out there.

I want Texas Football to win football games.  I can honestly, without hesitation, look any of you self-righteous bushnecks in the eye and tell you...I couldn't possibly care less about these "kids."    I ain't their fucking daddy. 

I don't care how they do in the watered down version of UT that I had to go through.   I don't care what jobs they get.  I don't care if they go pro.   I don't care if they learn something.   I want them to win football games for the University of Texas.   That's it.   If you want to pretend you watch college sports to watch young men blahblahblah something, keep kidding yourselves.   

It's ok, you'll get over it.   Or not.   You'll just get really angry at an anonymous bulletin board for some reason to validate your own beliefs.

Oh noes!   Did the bad QB have to go get an education at a school other than Big State U when the world found out he can't hack it at the next level?   My heart fills with blood.

And to the "it's the coaching" theorists -- the staff that coached GG through last season is the  same staff that managed to coach Colt McCoy and Vince Young to title games and NFL careers.    So give it a rest.

Like I said, you guys are so fucking cute.   

Don't worry, none of us thought you were classy. We just hoped that somewhere in that non-athletic body of yours, you'd have a bit of compassion for a youth player. Just wait. I hope and pray that you have to sit through your own child getting second-guessed or even booed on the field or court or rink. Then it'll all become clear to you.

[Ebby Calvin]

Boy, that escalated quickly.  I'll show myself out now, thanks.

[Bench]

Don't worry, none of us thought you were classy. We just hoped that somewhere in that non-athletic body of yours, you'd have a bit of compassion for a youth player. Just wait. I hope and pray that you have to sit through your own child getting second-guessed or even booed on the field or court or rink. Then it'll all become clear to you.

Can't we start booing now?

[Alkie]

Don't worry, none of us thought you were classy. We just hoped that somewhere in that non-athletic body of yours, you'd have a bit of compassion for a youth player. Just wait. I hope and pray that you have to sit through your own child getting second-guessed or even booed on the field or court or rink. Then it'll all become clear to you.

Right, because the problem was I couldn't comprehend what you redneck fucktards were talking about otherwise.

I only hope my body is in as fantastic shape as yours, you beast, you.

[Alkie]

Can't we start booing now?

The second my kid is forced into having to demand attention and public adoration, you are free to boo all you want.   I don't expect you to care about my kid either.   

[Alkie]

Also, I really enjoy that everyone assumed I meant I was booing him with my post and not just "thank god he can't play QB for my football team anymore."   You guys are fucking precious.  ESPECIALLY the ones that are ex-jocks.    Precious.

It must be killing you guys that you didn't make it either.   Think of all the things you could have done with your lives.   Shame really.

[JackAstro]

Fat, drunk and angry is no way to post through life, son.

[Ebby Calvin]

Fat, drunk and angry is no way to post through life, son.

Brilliant.

[Alkie]

Fat, drunk and angry is no way to post through life, son.

It's hard to tell.  Was this aimed at me or at the lunatics in this thread that are taking shit a wee bit too seriously?

[Mr. Happy]

Also, I really enjoy that everyone assumed I meant I was booing him with my post and not just "thank god he can't play QB for my football team anymore."   You guys are fucking precious.  ESPECIALLY the ones that are ex-jocks.    Precious.

It must be killing you guys that you didn't make it either.   Think of all the things you could have done with your lives.   Shame really.

Actually, I was able to keep playing in denial leagues until I was 37 and my shoulder gave out. This allowed me to finish my education, become a lawyer and make far more money than over 95% of all who sign professional sports contracts. I could have played in the Rookie League for a year at $500 per month, no signing bonus, $13 per diem and having to live with a sponsoring family. I opted to work for my father's CPA firm for that summer prior to going to grad school and then on to law school. I have no regrets. A man has to know his limitations. My 85-88 mph four seam fastball wasn't going anywhere fast.

[Michael N]

the Michael Nash style of TZ posting. well done.

WFW.

[Alkie]

WFW.

You.   Are my motherfucking hero.

[Bench]

WFW.

Four and a half years since his last post.  Lurch, you have a whole new population to monitor.

[Alkie]

Four and a half years since his last post.  Lurch, you have a whole new population to monitor.

Tonight, while I'm pretending to pretend to have sex with my hand, I'm going to scream Nash's name.   That's how excited this makes me.

[JaneDoe]

WFW.

Dear Lord that was beautiful.......

[Mr. Happy]

Dear Lord that was beautiful.......

It was very well played. It'll be interesting to see the old man's response tomorrow.

[JaneDoe]

It was very well played. It'll be interesting to see the old man's response tomorrow.

All we need now is Kevin or Scott to jump out of the woodwork....

[Mr. Happy]

All we need now is Kevin or Scott to jump out of the woodwork....

El Jefe is omnipresent.

[JaneDoe]

El Jefe is omnipresent.

El Jefe is omniscient.

[Mr. Happy]

El Jefe is omniscient.

That too.

[The Spleen]

So when are Ray K and Prince of Heck stopping by?

[OregonStrosFan]

Fat, drunk and angry is no way to post through life, son.

How else would you have me post then?!?

[remy]

WFW.

The force is strong with this one.

[HudsonHawk]

It's the fans and how much of their identity has become tied up with winning.

How much of their identity is tied up in co-opting *someone else's* winning.

[Andyzipp]

How much of their identity is tied up in co-opting *someone else's* winning.

Correction noted.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

How much of their identity is tied up in co-opting *someone else's* winning.

But you agree this is the current "fan" experience?  At least for a very vocal group (majority/minority, I cannot guess).

[HudsonHawk]

But you agree this is the current "fan" experience?  At least for a very vocal group (majority/minority, I cannot guess).

I agree that many fans have their identity wrapped up in someone else winning a football/baseball/basketball/whathave you game, yes.  And don't get me wrong...I'm a fan.  I've criticized players, coaches, GMs, owners, etc.  I'm a fan of certain teams, and I excited when they win.  But it's not my life.  Well, some could look at this board and argue otherwise.

[Lurch]

WFW.

Holy shit.  Did that really happen?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I agree that many fans have their identity wrapped up in someone else winning a football/baseball/basketball/whathave you game, yes.  And don't get me wrong...I'm a fan.  I've criticized players, coaches, GMs, owners, etc.  I'm a fan of certain teams, and I excited when they win.  But it's not my life.  Well, some could look at this board and argue otherwise.

I suspect you are not yelling and cussing players or wishing harm upon them. 

Unfortunately, this is not a phenomenon isolated to professional or college sports.  My 8yr old played soccer in the spring.  We were graced with a teammate who's parents (mom and dad) felt justified in vocally berating their child's play, constantly.  On the other hand, the coach (professional educator), sent out a non-specific email that all parents should encourage and support their children, adding we all signed a document taking an oath to do as much.  The disruptive parent kept his mouth shut the rest of the season.  Which was good, they didn't win a game at all.  But they did have fun once the parents shut their pie-holes. 

[HudsonHawk]

I suspect you are not yelling and cussing players or wishing harm upon them. 

Well no.  And I rarely yell at players.  It's mostly at coaches and others who have time to think about the decisions they're making and still step on their dick.  I don't mind mistakes, I just can't stand not being prepared.  And that's in life, not just in sports.

[JimR]

and, oh, Alkie, btw. i care about your kid when she tries her best in an endeavor and is not quite good enough. anyone who criticizes her results or perish the thought, boos her, will break her heart. that breaks my heart. it will be no different when she is 19 or 20 and playing volleyball for UT, if she is booed, it will break my heart. my teams' winning is good, of course, but i care more about the effort. and you're quite right, i did not make it either. hell, we lost the last game i pitched with the CWS on the line, no doubt you would have booed the result. after all, all you care about is that these 18-22 year olds WIN games for UT. if they do not win, they are losers. sadly, you're not alone in your thinking.

i knew you when you were a kid. you were one of the funniest guys i ever met, and i liked you verey much. you knew baseball, and i liked watching games with you. you were in my home a lot, and i counted you among my closest friends despite our age difference. i am glad i knew the kid because the self-absorbed adult you have become is not likeable to me at all. i hope you grow out of it one day. you were a great kid.

if Michael Nash is still posting on this board, some admins lied to me. see you boys and girls later. i will not be a part of this if he is.

Hook 'em.

[Limey]

Well no.  And I rarely yell at players.  It's mostly at coaches and others who have time to think about the decisions they're making and still step on their dick.  I don't mind mistakes, I just can't stand not being prepared.  And that's in life, not just in sports.

This.

In pro sports, it's your fucking job!  If I go into a deal unprepared and get my pants pulled down, I will (a) check to make sure I'm wearing underwear that day; and (2) get better or get fired.  It should be the same with sports.

As for college athletes, I am halfway between Alkie and Jim.  The kids playing on scholarships are getting paid in kind to play.  They can go to school and not play if they so choose, and can either pay for it or get an academic scholarship.  If they take a sports scholarship, then they need to perform to justify what they are getting paid to do.

Miss Limey had a sports scholarship to UT, but a serious knee injury in her last high school game ended her playing days prior to her getting to college.  UT pulled the scholarship, she transferred to another college to take the degree course she always wanted to take but could not get at UT (or, at least, the program was nowhere near as good).  That's the lot of a college sports scholarship - you get it while you can play and it's gone when you can't.

I don't agree with booing players on my team, and I do not believe that I have ever booed a home team player*.  I have booed at sporting events, but my ire is directed at Cockring Pooholes opposing players or Cecil Cooper the coaches who patently asleep at the wheel or simply incompetent and unprepared.


* Except maybe Billy Wagner

[BizidyDizidy]

Miss Limey had a sports scholarship to UT, but a serious knee injury in her last high school game ended her playing days prior to her getting to college.  UT pulled the scholarship, she transferred to another college to take the degree course she always wanted to take but could not get at UT (or, at least, the program was nowhere near as good).  That's the lot of a college sports scholarship - you get it while you can play and it's gone when you can't.

Depends on the school.

[Limey]

Depends on the school.

...and the sport.

[sporadic]

If they take a sports scholarship, then they need to perform to justify what they are getting paid to do.

There is an AWFUL lot of heat placed on collegiate athletes, as you have grown men making a whole lot of money based on the performance of 18-22 year old kids.  Your comment above is the mindset of most coaches, and it can SUCK THE LIFE OUT OF THE SPORT FOR THE STUDENT ATHLETE.  I cannot imagine being in the fishbowl that is college football...not only do you have the pressure from the coaches, but fans too.  I wish the people that felt the need to boo and degrade college athletes knew exactly what those kids go through. 

[Mr. Happy]

There is an AWFUL lot of heat placed on collegiate athletes, as you have grown men making a whole lot of money based on the performance of 18-22 year old kids.  Your comment above is the mindset of most coaches, and it can SUCK THE LIFE OUT OF THE SPORT FOR THE STUDENT ATHLETE.  I cannot imagine being in the fishbowl that is college football...not only do you have the pressure from the coaches, but fans too.  I wish the people that felt the need to boo and degrade college athletes knew exactly what those kids go through. 

Amen! People don't realize that the athletic scholarship is not a "four year ride," but four one year renewable scholarships at the school's option. The pressure on college athletes at the D1 level is not worth it for the rank and file player.

[hostros7]

And, it's worse today.  The thought of having your every move chatted about on message boards and blogs and twitters when you're a college kid that is prone to making mistakes--academically, athletically, personally--just adds to the on the field pressure.  There are a lot of perks to being an athlete, the biggest of which are continuing your pursuit of athletics while receiving a free education, but it's not enough for the has-beens or never-weres to be justified to boo their own team/players if they're giving their maximum effort. 

[Limey]

There is an AWFUL lot of heat placed on collegiate athletes, as you have grown men making a whole lot of money based on the performance of 18-22 year old kids.  Your comment above is the mindset of most coaches, and it can SUCK THE LIFE OUT OF THE SPORT FOR THE STUDENT ATHLETE.  I cannot imagine being in the fishbowl that is college football...not only do you have the pressure from the coaches, but fans too.  I wish the people that felt the need to boo and degrade college athletes knew exactly what those kids go through. 

As I said, I'm not down with booing athletes.  But kids playing for a college, and getting free school in return, are deriving a valuable financial benefit from their ability to play.  You don't think any other kid would trade places with them - pressure 'n' all - for free college and a shot at a multi-million dollar professional contract?  Even if players don't go pro after school, they save themselves or their parents $100,000 - $200,000 over kids without athletic scholarships.

Also, life is hard and nothing is free.

FWIW, star soccer players in Europe go pro at a very young age (teams have their own farm systems and there is no equivalent to high school / college sports over here).  Wayne Rooney made his premier league debut at age 16, his international debut at 18 and was the subject of a 25 million pound trade at age 19.  Rooney is exceptional, but this kind of story is not unusual.

The a-holes booing Gilbert were just that, a-holes.  But I have little sympathy for the non-booing related pressures Gilbert was under.  He was doing what he wanted to do for which he was being well rewarded with the potential for serious coin down the road.

Lastly, athletes often say that they don't come to my place of work and boo me; well, pay me $10mm a year, and I'd be happy for you to sit next to my desk and boo me every day until you're hoarse.

[Astroholic]

Well no.  And I rarely yell at players.  It's mostly at coaches and others who have time to think about the decisions they're making and still step on their dick.  I don't mind mistakes, I just can't stand not being prepared.  And that's in life, not just in sports.

I just yell at the tele.

[Mr. Happy]

As I said, I'm not down with booing athletes.  But kids playing for a college, and getting free school in return, are deriving a valuable financial benefit from their ability to play.  You don't think any other kid would trade places with them - pressure 'n' all - for free college and a shot at a multi-million dollar professional contract?  Even if players don't go pro after school, they save themselves or their parents $100,000 - $200,000 over kids without athletic scholarships.

Also, life is hard and nothing is free.

FWIW, star soccer players in Europe go pro at a very young age (teams have their own farm systems and there is no equivalent to high school / college sports over here).  Wayne Rooney made his premier league debut at age 16, his international debut at 18 and was the subject of a 25 million pound trade at age 19.  Rooney is exceptional, but this kind of story is not unusual.

The a-holes booing Gilbert were just that, a-holes.  But I have little sympathy for the non-booing related pressures Gilbert was under.  He was doing what he wanted to do for which he was being well rewarded with the potential for serious coin down the road.

Lastly, athletes often say that they don't come to my place of work and boo me; well, pay me $10mm a year, and I'd be happy for you to sit next to my desk and boo me every day until you're hoarse.

Your premise is flawed. The overwhelming majority of collegiate athletes know that they have little to no chance of earning any money playing sports. Many of these kids couldn't go to college except through college athletic scholarships. Therefore, they have little choice. The "serious coin" is being made by the D1 schools, which are using these kids-plain and simple. It's a form of slavery if you ask me.

[Lurch]

The "serious coin" is being made by the D1 schools, which are using these kids-plain and simple. It's a form of slavery if you ask me.

That's a bit harsh.  These are non-profit institutions and the "serious coin" being made is going back into paying for those very scholarships, academic departments, and (in the case of UT) the academic departments.  Now, you may rightly point at the coaching salaries, but if that's what it takes to generate the serious coin above, so be it.  That's just a wise investment.

[BizidyDizidy]

It's a form of slavery if you ask me.

This is fucking ridiculous.

[Waldo]

"This is fucking ridiculous. "

- everyone except Adrian Peterson

FIFY

[subnuclear]

While athletic scholarships do help some poor kids, that is not their primary purpose. If you want to help poor kids, come up with ideas to keep tuition down and university housing cheap.

[Ebby Calvin]

While athletic scholarships do help some poor kids, that is not their primary purpose. If you want to help poor kids, come up with ideas to keep tuition down and university housing cheap.

I'd rather watch football.

[Mr. Happy]

This is fucking ridiculous.

Is it really? I'm speaking primarily about football, where a bunch of primarily black kids toil for white run schools for little to no compensation. To me, that sounds a lot like slavery.

[BizidyDizidy]

Is it really? I'm speaking primarily about football, where a bunch of primarily black kids toil for white run schools for little to no compensation. To me, that sounds a lot like slavery.

You should try to get an idea what slavery was then. Hint - no one has to play college football if they don't want to.

[Bench]

I always imagined Bobby Bowdoin as a slave owner who viewed his "boys" as nothing more than livestock.  No real reason, just a caricature I had in my mind.


But, yeah, unless you're in to BDSM you can't really "choose" to be a slave.  

[BizidyDizidy]

You should try to get an idea what slavery was then. Hint - no one has to play college football if they don't want to.

I don't know how college's can be blamed at all in this - they are offering something (scholarships) to players in exchange for them playing. That's something potentially worth in excess of 300,000 dollars. If they don't like that offer, they can go somewhere else (NFL, CFL, whatever). I am more amenable to the argument that NFL shouldn't be able to dictate that you have to play 3 years in college to play - that seems unreasonable.

[Noe]

Is it really? I'm speaking primarily about football, where a bunch of primarily black kids toil for white run schools for little to no compensation. To me, that sounds a lot like slavery.

I don't think "slavery" works as well as you think.  Maybe migrant worker analogy?

[Mr. Happy]

You should try to get an idea what slavery was then. Hint - no one has to play college football if they don't want to.

I realize that the analogy isn't perfect. However, for a lot of these black kids, playing sports is the only way out of a liofe of poverty. I sound like a bleeding heart liberal. I blame a lot of this on the gestapo NCAA, which is controlled by the presidents of the institutions that profit so handsomely on the backs of these kids.

[Bench]

I realize that the analogy isn't perfect. However, for a lot of these black kids, playing sports is the only way out of a liofe of poverty. I sound like a bleeding heart liberal. I blame a lot of this on the gestapo NCAA, which is controlled by the presidents of the institutions that profit so handsomely on the backs of these kids.

Slavery.
Gestapo.

If you can work in Stalin you'll hit the hyperbole trifecta. 

[Noe]

I don't know how college's can be blamed at all in this - they are offering something (scholarships) to players in exchange for them playing. That's something potentially worth in excess of 300,000 dollars. If they don't like that offer, they can go somewhere else (NFL, CFL, whatever). I am more amenable to the argument that NFL shouldn't be able to dictate that you have to play 3 years in college to play - that seems unreasonable.

Dude! Nice, you replied to your own post. Anyway, I am guessing Mr. Happy's use of hyperbole was off, but his point about *inequity* and *imbalance* are salient.

[Ron Brand]

Slavery.
Gestapo.

If you can work in Stalin you'll hit the hyperbole trifecta. 

I think the people who boo college players should be banished to the steppes in Siberia, comrade.

Done.

[BizidyDizidy]

Why is it the NCAA's fault? No one complains in baseball - why? The issue is that the NFL uses the NCAA as a free minor league.

[Trey]

I don't know how college's can be blamed at all in this - they are offering something (scholarships) to players in exchange for them playing. That's something potentially worth in excess of 300,000 dollars. If they don't like that offer, they can go somewhere else (NFL, CFL, whatever). I am more amenable to the argument that NFL shouldn't be able to dictate that you have to play 3 years in college to play - that seems unreasonable.

I think if you set up a professional minor league system for football and basketball (that kids could join straight out of high school) you'd kill a lot of the problems that we're seeing today in the NCAA.

[Mr. Happy]

Why is it the NCAA's fault? No one complains in baseball - why? The issue is that the NFL uses the NCAA as a free minor league.

For most schools, the overwhelming majority of schools, baseball loses money. Baseball also gives a kid the option to be drafted out of high school, as does basketball, but not football. My beef is primarily with football.

[Noe]

No one complains in baseball - why?

Baseball is interesting to say the least.  In baseball, players can leverage going to college to demand more money from the pro team.  So they think as they go their merry way to go ol' State U that they've done something great for themselves and by and large many have.  But once you start to play, the same rules in college apply... if you get hurt, you can lose your scholarship and all, yadda, yadda, yadda.  In pro baseball, the investment is better for the player because if you get hurt, they will try to protect their investment and get you treatment (per se).

Lastly, the whole schtick about playing and going to school is somewhat on the player, but try to get sympathy from a coach that you need to study for an exam and that will never happen. I played on teams with college players and one story always stayed with me from a guy who was an outstanding left-handed pitcher... he went to a major college program in Florida.  He was also very sincere in trying to get his degree.  One day, coach called him into his office and flat out asked him "Are you here to play ball or go to school? I need to know your commitment to playing because I don't see it with all this studying your doing!"

[Andyzipp]

I don't think "slavery" works as well as you think.  Maybe migrant worker analogy?

Whatever happened to indentured servitude?

[Noe]

Whatever happened to indentured servitude?

That is so 1600's, pilgrim!

[BizidyDizidy]

My point is the NCAA has the sames rules for both - its not what the NCAA is doing that's causing the problem.

[Clark in Denver]

Is it really? I'm speaking primarily about football, where a bunch of primarily black kids toil for white run schools for little to no compensation. To me, that sounds a lot like slavery.

You would prefer they have no opportunity for schooling? The reality is that most of the kids playing college football will never sniff the NFL. They do end up with a college degree that they may not otherwise have had the opportunity to get.

It's not a perfect system, but to say that kids getting a free education, that many otherwise would not be able to get, is akin to slavery is just wrong.

[Noe]

My point is the NCAA has the sames rules for both - its not what the NCAA is doing that's causing the problem.

Has this changed much? "Expectations Lose to Reality of Sports Scholarships"

The chase for a scholarship has another side that is rarely discussed. Although those athletes who receive athletic aid are viewed as the ultimate winners, they typically find the demands on their time, minds and bodies in college even more taxing than the long journey to get there.

There are 6 a.m. weight-lifting sessions, exhausting practices, team meetings, study halls and long trips to games. Their varsity commitments often limit the courses they can take. Athletes also share a frustrating feeling of estrangement from the rest of the student body, which views them as the privileged ones. In this setting, it is not uncommon for first- and second-year athletes to relinquish their scholarships.

“Kids who have worked their whole life trying to get a scholarship think the hard part is over when they get the college money,” said Tim Poydenis, a senior at Villanova receiving $3,000 a year to play baseball. “They don’t know that it’s a whole new monster when you get here. Yes, all the hard work paid off. And now you have to work harder.”

[Limey]

I think the people who boo college players should be banished to the steppes in Siberia, comrade.

Done.

Tony Heyward was "reassigned" to be BP's senior executive in charge of its operations in...Siberia.

This shit is real and modern, people!

[Limey]

Whatever happened to indentured servitude?

Have you seen the cost of dentures these days?

[Rebel Jew]

Is it really? I'm speaking primarily about football, where a bunch of primarily black kids toil for white run schools for little to no compensation. To me, that sounds a lot like slavery.

I agree with Happy. It's not a perfect analogy, but the fundamental premise is the same-- huge group of people producing tons and tons of money and receiving virtually no compensation for it. The scholarship is a ruse-- it essentially works as the vehicle the universities use to get the athletes on campus. Even if, as in Bizidy's unrealistically extreme example, 4 years worth of scholarships at an expensive private school like Stansbury add up to $300,000, it's not like the university is "giving" the athlete that amount, or even that the athlete is taking away a slot at the university for an otherwise tuition-paying student. The teachers are already paid, the campus facilities already built-- it costs the university almost nothing to bring these athletes on campus, yet the athletes generate millions in return. And once the athletes are there, they're stuck. They must perform to their highest ability or that scholarship can be revoked. They can't go pro, and it's difficult for them to transfer. And not only are they uncompensated, they're forced to give up all their likeness rights, as well as major restrictions on their ability to earn non-athletic income. It's probably not slavery, but it's in the same figurative ballpark.

[BizidyDizidy]

I was worried about my position until Joey took the other side

[EasTexAstro]

I agree with Happy. It's not a perfect analogy, but the fundamental premise is the same-- huge group of people producing tons and tons of money and receiving virtually no compensation for it. The scholarship is a ruse-- it essentially works as the vehicle the universities use to get the athletes on campus. Even if, as in Bizidy's unrealistically extreme example, 4 years worth of scholarships at an expensive private school like Stansbury add up to $300,000, it's not like the university is "giving" the athlete that amount, or even that the athlete is taking away a slot at the university for an otherwise tuition-paying student. The teachers are already paid, the campus facilities already built-- it costs the university almost nothing to bring these athletes on campus, yet the athletes generate millions in return. And once the athletes are there, they're stuck. They must perform to their highest ability or that scholarship can be revoked. They can't go pro, and it's difficult for them to transfer. And not only are they uncompensated, they're forced to give up all their likeness rights, as well as major restrictions on their ability to earn non-athletic income. It's probably not slavery, but it's in the same figurative ballpark.

So, you are an athlete, or not. You decide to go to a university. You refuse the scholarships and aid. You try to get in on other merits and pay your own way. No pressure. No stress. University, for non-athletes, is no challenge whatsoever. Finding a job that supports your fees and housing is no problem. Getting in the classes you want/need is easy. Getting good housing is easy. Why would anyone want to take the athlete route?

 

[Lurch]

I was worried about my position until Joey took the other side

Exactly.  So absurd I couldnt figure out where to start.  Embarrassing

[Lurch]

Know who else got "free room and board"? 

[EasTexAstro]

Know who else got "free room and board"? 

Lurch, your personal life needs to stay....personal.

[Rebel Jew]

So, you are an athlete, or not. You decide to go to a university. You refuse the scholarships and aid. You try to get in on other merits and pay your own way. No pressure. No stress. University, for non-athletes, is no challenge whatsoever. Finding a job that supports your fees and housing is no problem. Getting in the classes you want/need is easy. Getting good housing is easy. Why would anyone want to take the athlete route?

 

Certainly a scholarship is worth something, and if you're fortunate enough to get one and keep one then you should use it for all it's worth. But how does that add up to the millions the athletes generate for the university, or the draconian rules that bind the athlete and athlete's likeness to the university but require no real commitment from the university to the athlete?

[EasTexAstro]

Certainly a scholarship is worth something, and if you're fortunate enough to get one and keep one then you should use it for all it's worth. But how does that add up to the millions the athletes generate for the university, or the draconian rules that bind the athlete and athlete's likeness to the university but require no real commitment from the university to the athlete?

It is a tough choice.

I have worked for companies that will take my work in the first 6 months, paying my diddly with a promise for more later, but then lay me off before I am eligible for benefits. They may  take my ideas and use them for patents with no recourse. Or I could start my own business with my own ideas and take all the risk.

There is a balance. I won't say it is easy in any way, but slavery?

[Rebel Jew]

It is a tough choice.

I have worked for companies that will take my work in the first 6 months, paying my diddly with a promise for more later, but then lay me off before I am eligible for benefits. They may  take my ideas and use them for patents with no recourse. Or I could start my own business with my own ideas and take all the risk.

There is a balance. I won't say it is easy in any way, but slavery?

Right, but if you were an NCAA athlete you wouldn't be allowed to strike out on your own. You wouldn't even be allowed to go to another company unless you were willing to put in a year at the company you hate then be unemployed for another year before joining the new company. And if you got your hand stuck in the paper shredder (which your boss told you to do) the business wouldn't even cover you for the injury. Meanwhile, the business is raking in millions from your ideas, and you're told to keep working there for the love of the company and the privilege of the on-the-job experience you're getting (not to mention all the great happy hours and hot secretaries).

[subnuclear]

Mr. Jew, do you have some ideas, beside NFL and NBA development leagues, that could resolve these issues? Do you think amateur athletics serves any purpose? Title IX would be a big issue to if there was compensation in the money sports and not in the others.

[Mr. Happy]

Mr. Jew, do you have some ideas, beside NFL and NBA development leagues, that could resolve these issues? Do you think amateur athletics serves any purpose? Title IX would be a big issue to if there was compensation in the money sports and not in the others.

Players should be paid. Pure and simple.

[EasTexAstro]

Right, but if you were an NCAA athlete you wouldn't be allowed to strike out on your own. You wouldn't even be allowed to go to another company unless you were willing to put in a year at the company you hate then be unemployed for another year before joining the new company. And if you got your hand stuck in the paper shredder (which your boss told you to do) the business wouldn't even cover you for the injury. Meanwhile, the business is raking in millions from your ideas, and you're told to keep working there for the love of the company and the privilege of the on-the-job experience you're getting (not to mention all the great happy hours and hot secretaries).

Dammit. I am so glad I never had the ability to be taken advantage of by college athletics.

Sarcasm aside, and I do apologize for that, I just can't believe that it is a terrible position to be in.

The booing thing is stupid and ridiculous.

It is an option. For some people, a good option.For some, maybe even a life altering option.

Some kids do ROTC to help with their college, with restrictions on their time, classes, and where they can go.

I'm sorry. I'll quit. It isn't worth arguing. I know these kids go through some serious stuff, stuff that I am sure would give me over to the cardiologist if I had to deal with it, but I still believe it is an option for them ( for some, the first chance to escape another life, for others just another option in life, for others, they don't even have the choice because of the hand life dealt them). I Have such a different view of slavery.

[Lurch]

Players should be paid. Pure and simple.

Many are.  $25k annually at a min, for ~20 ~20-hour "work weeks" playing a game. For a 18-22 year old.  Pure and simple.

[Rebel Jew]

Mr. Jew, do you have some ideas, beside NFL and NBA development leagues, that could resolve these issues? Do you think amateur athletics serves any purpose? Title IX would be a big issue to if there was compensation in the money sports and not in the others.

It's a clusterfuck of an issue, but for starters you could give the athletes the right to market themselves and quit denying them the right to legal representation.

[Rebel Jew]

Dammit. I am so glad I never had the ability to be taken advantage of by college athletics.

Sarcasm aside, and I do apologize for that, I just can't believe that it is a terrible position to be in.

The booing thing is stupid and ridiculous.

It is an option. For some people, a good option.For some, maybe even a life altering option.

Some kids do ROTC to help with their college, with restrictions on their time, classes, and where they can go.

I'm sorry. I'll quit. It isn't worth arguing. I know these kids go through some serious stuff, stuff that I am sure would give me over to the cardiologist if I had to deal with it, but I still believe it is an option for them ( for some, the first chance to escape another life, for others just another option in life, for others, they don't even have the choice because of the hand life dealt them). I Have such a different view of slavery.

You're right, it ain't slavery. Exploitation maybe, but slavery is the wrong term.

[subnuclear]

It's a clusterfuck of an issue, but for starters you could give the athletes the right to market themselves and quit denying them the right to legal representation.

I'm sure even sensible ideas like these would start an avalanche.

[Mr. Happy]

Many are.  $25k annually at a min, for ~20 ~20-hour "work weeks" playing a game. For a 18-22 year old.  Pure and simple.

Lurch, as is often the case, you are talking about something of which you know nothing. Try going to college with no spending money and no right to earn any spending money.

[HudsonHawk]

Lurch, as is often the case, you are talking about something of which you know nothing. Try going to college with no spending money and no right to earn any spending money.

College athletes are allowed to earn spending money.  They are allowed to work both during the academic year and in the summer.

[sporadic]

College athletes are allowed to earn spending money.  They are allowed to work both during the academic year and in the summer.

They may be "allowed" to, but I would really, really like to know when they would find the time to do so.

[Rebel Jew]

I'm sure even sensible ideas like these would start an avalanche.

I'm not sure it would be an avalanche. There'd be a lot of activity at first, a lot of huffing from white media types, but ultimately the sports themselves would look exactly the same. If the NCAA is smart it will start making serious reforms now, because it's going to lose out in a big way if it waits until later.

[HudsonHawk]

They may be "allowed" to, but I would really, really like to know when they would find the time to do so.

Most find the time during the "offseason" and during the summer and Christmas breaks.

[sporadic]

Most find the time during the "offseason" and during the summer and Christmas breaks.

All that does is provide spending money while you are off campus, does not change the fact you are broke again when school starts.  And, with the new crop of Freshmen coming in, you better use your "off time" to get better at your sport or you will find yourself replaced...very quickly.

[Mr. Happy]

College athletes are allowed to earn spending money.  They are allowed to work both during the academic year and in the summer.

You are wrong about that, HH, unless they changed the rules recently. When I was there and working for the Athletic Department during graduate school and law school, they were prohibited from it by the NCAA during the school year. Not even campus jobs. They can work during the summer if they're not in school.

[Lurch]

Lurch, as is often the case, you are talking about something of which you know nothing. Try going to college with no spending money and no right to earn any spending money.

Sorry.  Is this a good time for me to randomly bring up my addictions?

[HudsonHawk]

You are wrong about that, HH, unless they changed the rules recently. When I was there and working for the Athletic Department during graduate school and law school, they were prohibited from it by the NCAA during the school year. Not even campus jobs. They can work during the summer if they're not in school.

They changed the rule in 1997.  Non-scholarship and partial scholarship players have always been allowed to work, IIRC.

[HudsonHawk]

All that does is provide spending money while you are off campus, does not change the fact you are broke again when school starts.  And, with the new crop of Freshmen coming in, you better use your "off time" to get better at your sport or you will find yourself replaced...very quickly.

If you're point is that the NCAA doesn't tell you *how* you can spend your money, you are correct.

[sporadic]

If you're point is that the NCAA doesn't tell you *how* you can spend your money, you are correct.

I have no fucking idea what you are getting at.  From my personal experience, there was no time to work.  We had workouts on M-Th at 5:30, class from 8-noon or 1:00 (daily), practice M-F from 1:30 until dark.  We were expected to be at the course on Friday afternoons and either Saturday or Sunday (not scheduled but still mandatory)  .  Between that and coursework there was no time to work.  Summers...you better be working your ass off (on your game) or else you will be replaced  the following semester by someone who has...then no scholarship.

[Mr. Happy]

They changed the rule in 1997.  Non-scholarship and partial scholarship players have always been allowed to work, IIRC.

I totally missed that then. I used to get frosted at some of the nitpicky NCAA rules and still do.

[Mr. Happy]

Sorry.  Is this a good time for me to randomly bring up my addictions?

It's always a great time.

[Noe]

I have no fucking idea what you are getting at.  From my personal experience, there was no time to work.  We had workouts on M-Th at 5:30, class from 8-noon or 1:00 (daily), practice M-F from 1:30 until dark.  We were expected to be at the course on Friday afternoons and either Saturday or Sunday (not scheduled but still mandatory)  .  Between that and coursework there was no time to work.  Summers...you better be working your ass off (on your game) or else you will be replaced  the following semester by someone who has...then no scholarship.

Coaches have ways to remind you of it too.

[HudsonHawk]

I have no fucking idea what you are getting at.

I'm getting at the NCAA does not forbid student athletes from having a job.

[Jacksonian]

I'm getting at the NCAA does not forbid student athletes from having a job.

Technically, yes.  Realistically, no.  Here's the DI manual.  http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D112.pdf

You can see the restrictions on employment and how difficult it would be for a football and basketball player in particular to meet all of the caveats.  Overall, athletic programs and athletes view the opportunities for employment as not worth it when compared to breaking a rule, even inadvertently, and risking eligibility.

[HudsonHawk]

Technically, yes.  Realistically, no.  Here's the DI manual.  http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D112.pdf

You can see the restrictions on employment and how difficult it would be for a football and basketball player in particular to meet all of the caveats.  Overall, athletic programs and athletes view the opportunities for employment as not worth it when compared to breaking a rule, even inadvertently, and risking eligibility.

Most college athletes I know have to work. Congratulations to those who don't.